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ADHD 2.0 with Dr. Edward Hallowell · Humanity Working

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: But these kinds of minds, I mean, these are the entrepreneurs, these are the inventors, these are the innovators, these are the groundbreakers, the disruptors, the the people who make important things happen.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, Paul here.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: A little while back, I had a great opportunity to sit down with Dr.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ned Hallowell.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hallowell is one of the world's leading experts on ADHD.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's worked in the field for over 40 years.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's the author of over 20 books, which don't just discuss the condition, but also the effect that the modern world has had on everybody's ability to be effective on a day-to-day basis.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: We spent our time together talking about how widespread ADHD is in both children and adults, the amazing capabilities that people with ADHD have, and also how many of us are suffering from what can just be thought of as a severe case of modern life.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you have ADHD yourself, suspect you might have it, know someone with it, or just struggle to deal with the challenges of a world built to distract you, I think you're gonna get a lot out of this episode.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I have ADHD myself, and I discovered I'd never heard of it until 1981 when I was a fellow in child psychiatry.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'd done college medical school residency, and I was doing a fellowship in child psychiatry.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And in one of the great aha moments of my life, I heard a lecture on uh what was then called ADD.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, holy moly, uh, that's me.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh uh and I also realized that the medical model, the deficit disorder model, uh left out all the good parts.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it really was a career creating moment uh for me, and uh and really uh began my quest to bring this knowledge to as many people as I could, uh, you know, and the the wider view of it so that it's not just a disorder, but has many positives that go with it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been on that mission ever since, you know.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that was 1981, and now we're 2021.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you do the math, is that 40 years?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh that is that is 40 years.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and um uh uh you know it it's uh it's uh such a misunderstood condition.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and that's the it's it's really a good news diagnosis when you find out that you have it, um, because the worst is over and the best is very much yet to come.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you were so at that point you were a young adult.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that'll be the first thing that's probably surprising to a bunch of of lay people um who maybe think of this as a childhood disease, they think of this as something that doesn't necessarily affect um adults.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you were growing up, did you have an awareness that there was something going on and you didn't uh you couldn't quite put a finger on it?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or was this like brand?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I knew no, no, no, I knew I was different.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but part of that was because my family was crazy, you know.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: I had my bipolar father, alcoholic uh stepfather, abusive, and my mother became alcoholic.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a whole lot of reasons that I would feel different, but um they were all very loving too.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it wasn't uh uh traumatic, it was just chaotic.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: So so I thought I was different because I didn't have a nice stable family.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I also knew my mind worked differently.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I would think of zany things, I'd think of weird offbeat responses, I'd you know, uh, you know, I I was uh you know the national lampoon kind of sense of humor, or you know, and and um um in fact Doug Kenny was uh at Harvard when I was at Harvard.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and um uh it it's um it so I I the the feeling of being different was there.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I also was an extremely slow reader, and uh I I also have what's called dyslexia, but it it just manifested in my my reading very, very, very, very slowly.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, to this day, my wife says, I don't know how you know anything.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: It takes you so long to read.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I majored in English at Harvard, you know, while doing pre-med and graduated with high honors.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I was, as is the case with most of these uh conditions, there is a positive embedded in them.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're not uh they're not the kiss of death, uh, or at least they don't have to be.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they can be terribly disabling.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why, again, I'm on such a mission to help people get the right kind of help, because uh if you don't, uh you you you indeed can live a life of underachievement at best, and um prison addiction at worst.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so so it's it's high-stakes poker we're playing here.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh, but these kinds of minds, I mean, these are the entrepreneurs, these are the inventors, these are the innovators, these are the groundbreakers, the disruptors, the the people who make important things happen.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and they're also the criminals.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: They're also the people who you know who who can't the analogy I use to describe it, the unifying analogy, is having ADHD is like having a Ferrari engine for a brain.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: You've got an incredibly powerful brain, uh an amazing imagination, but you have bicycle brakes, so you you you have trouble controlling the power uh of your mind.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And far from a deficit of attention, you have an abundance of attention.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Your challenge is to control it, you know.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: So race car brain, Ferrari engine brain with bicycle brakes, uh, pretty much sums it up.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and um uh, you know, in my mission, you know, I'll tell an eight-year-old boy, I'll say, I've I have good news for you.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's not coming to me expecting good news.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: I say, Yeah, you're you're special.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is a marker of talent.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're uh you've got a race car for a brain.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and he'll nod, yeah, because I say it runs away with you, doesn't it?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: You you do things you don't mean to.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: You and um I said, but that's okay.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: We we can work on your breaks, and by the time you're a grown-up, you'll be winning races, you know, because you've got the you were born with that Ferrari.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned eight-year-olds there.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: What's the earliest age at which uh children are typically diagnosed with ADHD?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have had moms who said they could diagnose it in utero, but but we we we we don't formally diagnose it until about age five.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then just I guess another couple of grounding facts here.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we hear the term ADD a lot in common parlance, and then obviously we hear the term ADHD.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are they considered to be the same?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are they different?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I wish they hadn't stuck that H in because it just confuses everyone.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: When I learned about it back in 1981, it was indeed called a tension deficit disorder, ADD.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: But then in the 90s, the the beam counters got together and said, no, we're gonna stick the H in there.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna call it attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're gonna say there are two types.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Type number one is ADHD primarily inattentive, which means ADHD without the H.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: But they didn't want to do the commonsensical thing and just call it ADD, like the old term.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they called it ADHD primarily inattentive.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Then if you have hyperactivity, then it's called combined type.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's ADHD combined type.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: You have hyperactivity as well as inattention.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so technically, ADD no longer exists, even though most people still call it ADD.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: In the diagnostic manual, there is no ADD.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's only ADHD primarily inattentive and ADHD combined type.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And how do the two types break down in terms of percentages?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good question.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the the uh inattentive type, the primarily inattentive, is much more common among females.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why women and little girls are so commonly not diagnosed, because they're not disruptive.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can't ignore disruptive behavior.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: You have to attend to it.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so the boys uh get diagnosed much more quickly, the girls they get dismissed as uh not very smart or not interested or shy or anxious.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: You have to ask the girl what's it like to be in the classroom?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: And she'll say, Oh, it's fine, I'm almost never there, because she's she's lost in her daydreams.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but you know, she's underachieving, and and they're just assuming it's because she's uh you know not that smart.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's it's it's a it's a tremendous problem why why girls don't get diagnosed, and then women, women with this condition, if they seek help almost always they'll get diagnosed with depression or anxiety, which they may well have because it's depressing and anxious making to have untreated ADD.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, but you have to really see a psychiatrist who knows this condition, who will ask the pertinent questions to draw out the diagnosis in an adult woman.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So is it still common these days for people to get to adult life and and not realize that they have this condition?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, indeed.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I I see I see them every day.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I love my job, because I I can give them the good news.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can say, guess what?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: You you you don't have depression, you don't have to stay on these antidepressants with all their side effects.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a race car brain with bicycle brakes, and and we need to do something to strengthen your brakes.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And when stimulant medication works, and that's riddle and adderall and and others, uh, it it's really a godsend.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: It works wonders.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't always work, it works about 80% of the time.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: In my case, it does not work.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, my medication, other than find the right marry the right person and find the right job, which are the two most important, my medication is coffee.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I I caffeinate myself every day like the rest of the world, you know, and and um uh coffee does work well for me.
• 9:56
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• 10:04
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• 10:10
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• 10:19
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• 10:29
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• 10:35
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• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: You've talked about this a little bit about the idea of having a race car for a brain and the positive aspects of it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can you go into a little bit more detail on that?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: If if people have recently undergone a diagnosis or they suspect they might have it, um, what are the what are the positive traits that you typically see within people?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right at the top of the list is a powerful imagination.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: We just have, we're just our imagination never stops.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're coming up with new ideas all the time.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: They can drive us crazy sometimes, you know, can't get to sleep at night because we keep having these ideas, ideas, ideas, ideas.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: So this powerful imagination is right at the top of the list.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh curiosity, we're driven by curiosity, we are endlessly curious.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why is that mold uh in the petri dish?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well, it turns out to be penicillin.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: So our our curiosity leads us to make great discoveries.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: It can also be annoying, you know.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: This is the when I was a little boy, I was called the question box because I couldn't stop asking questions.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, so we're but we have tremendous curiosity.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: We uh we are uh unusually creative in some field or another.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean you're creative everywhere, but in some field or another, you you have a particular gift, a particular knack.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: We're also very intuitive, we can sort of see into people in situations.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh we are energetic, you know, the the you know, we tend to have a lot of energy.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we're very uh resilient.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: We we can you know we can get knocked down nine times and get up ten.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we we really uh don't quit, we don't give up.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're always in there.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh we're usually very generous, very big-hearted, uh, but we're also very strong-willed and stubborn, you know, uh don't give up.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh so that list of positives, uh, those are all qualities you can't buy and you can't teach.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: You can't buy or teach curiosity, you can't buy or teach creativity.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: You can encourage it, but you you can't uh you can't create it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now the downside, the pro the the reasons people seek help, we can we can help.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh trouble focusing when you're not interested.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Boredom is our kryptonite.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: We just repel from boredom.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you know the minute the teacher is boring or the job is boring or the conversation is boring, we're out of there mentally.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh so so trouble focusing when we're not interested, which leads to inconsistent performance, which leads to lectures on how we should try harder.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: But telling us to try harder is like telling someone who's nearsighted to squint harder.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of misses the point.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we need eyeglasses, not lectures on uh working harder.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh trouble with so-called executive functioning, we have trouble prioritizing, planning, organizing.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we really have a different sense of time.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: In our world, there are basically two times there's now and not now.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you say the project is due next Tuesday, not now, and it's out of our mind until not now is almost now, and then we get it done in a panic.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what happens in a panic physiologically is you pour out a lot of adrenaline.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we're basically self-medicating with adrenaline by creating these situations of panic, but it's not a good way to live.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to live from panic to panic, from crisis to crisis.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: But but until we know what's going on, that's that's what we often do.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we live a life of chronic procrastination and meeting deadlines at the very at the very last minute.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh we can be impulsive, um uh, you know, but I I always say, you know, what is creativity but impulsivity going right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: If your impulsive action turns out to be useful, you say how creative.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if it turns out to be destructive, we say how impulsive, you know.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there's sort of two sides of the same coin.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for that matter, what is distractability?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're already distractable, but a form of curiosity.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you didn't care what was going out there, you wouldn't go listen for it, you know.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: So um uh and then we have a terrible vulnerability to addiction uh of all kinds, substances, but also behavioral addictions, spending, shopping, gambling, uh you know, with between eBay and Amazon that you know, there's these shopaholics who just, you know, I had one patient who collected a thousand Rolex watches off of eBay.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, he just couldn't stop himself.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um so so you know, it it can be the problems that arise can be very, very difficult in the Swiss Why.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: The the prison population is full of people and the halls of the addicted, full of people with undiagnosed, untreated ADD, the halls of the unemployed, the marginalized, you know, the people who have never got their act together, so to speak.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: But then some are the halls of the ultra ultra successful entrepreneurs and the you know the people who really changed the world.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I've had the pleasure of reading uh several of your books recently.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, ADHD 2.0 is the um is the most recent one.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of the things that struck me about it, as well as the really insightful stuff that is in there, um, is in my mind, as I'm envisioning somebody with AD with ADHD, I'm not envisioning somebody who writes a lot of books.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious um about that question specifically.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I mean you've published a lot of books at this point.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you've obviously figured out how to have the discipline to sit down and do the right, do the writer's tasks, which can be can require quite a lot of focus, quite a lot of settled time, et cetera.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you navigate that?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you actually get to a point where you can sit down and consistently write words on a page when having ADHD itself?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's really a blessing and a curse that I was born with.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's uh I wouldn't wish it on anyone else because as you point out, writing is a very unforgiving discipline.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's like golf, you know, it's never as good as you want it to be.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and um, but I keep whacking away at it because it gives me a unique kind of fulfillment that nothing else does.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I keep coming back.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: It it's what I call in in my new book, it's my right difficult, no pun intended.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Writing happens to be my right R-I-G-H-T difficult.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what all of us with AD, we need to find our right difficult.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: What is what is the creative activity that both challenges you and matters to you?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, it's writing, it's very challenging, it's never as good as I want it to be, but it matters tremendously to me.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just I get a huge satisfaction.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the one good golf shop that keeps you coming back, you know.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: I get a huge satisfaction out of a well-turned sentence or a uh a well-turned paragraph, you know, and so and and and I've got something to say, you know.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, so it doesn't require people often say, where do you get the discipline?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Discipline sounds like a it's too tinged with morality.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that I'm disciplined.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: I watch junk TV, I I like to have fun, I play around.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a I'm not a you know, your typical disciplined person, but when it comes to writing, when I've got a book to write, I get it done.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, that's not discipline.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I get it done.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: I know this is my 21st book, so I know I'll get it done.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's always daunting.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: I always in the middle of doing it, I always think this is the worst thing I've ever written.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I go through this slough of despond, you know, just you know, piling on myself.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's horrible, uh, writing a book, but it's also wonderful, you know.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and so, like I say, I was born with this uh affliction slash gift.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um I I I live with it.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's part of who I am.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think most writers you you'd find that's the case.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh so I don't take credit for being disciplined, I just say, you know, I'm responding to an inner need, you know, like a cow that needs to be milked, you know.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: You don't say what a disciplined cow, you produce milk every day.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the things that comes from a lot of your books is the fact that this issue around people being able to navigate the world um and do so in a way um where they can be personally effective is getting harder for just about everybody.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that specifically technology that has been built in many cases for flexibility is creating a very disordered, unstructured environment that we as humans have to navigate.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you talk about this in several of your books, been Crazy Busy, for example.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you talk about um the the fundamental changes to the world in which we live that make it difficult to navigate.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So from your perspective, is that is that a causal effect?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is that causing more people to have ADHD?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is that instead just creating a set of uh of people that have ADHD-like symptoms?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: How would you describe um the effect of our modern world, our modern crazy world with the that's breaking down all kinds of barriers, but is also, as it's doing so, breaking down all kinds of structure?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it's a very important point.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and in diagnosing ADHD, I often say the the most difficult decision is figuring out is this a call, is this a case of ADHD, or is it a severe case of modern life?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because modern life can indeed induce the very same symptoms of distractability, impulsivity, restlessness, impatience, um, you know, frazzledness, uh, over indulging in alcohol or food or you know what so you know we're we're crazy busy.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and the way you tell them apart is is through the history.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or you can do what I call the Vermont test.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: You put them on a farm in Vermont and come back in two weeks.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: If when you come back, the guy is sitting there on a rocking chair on the porch reading a book, then you know it was a severe case of modern life.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was socially induced ADD.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: If, on the other hand, he's turned the farm into an amusement park, then you know it was true, real ADD.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so the the point is one is genetically uh created, and the other is created by society.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, society definitely does impact the genetic form as well.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we don't know and lives in a vacuum, but um uh it it it's not what it's not what sets it in motion.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're born with the genes that predispose to ADHD.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh uh the the social construct, the severe case of modern life, what those people need is is to unplug, slow down, have family dinner, set boundaries, set limits, you know, T I O, turn it off, and next thing you know, they've calmed down.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: They're behaving in a in a sane fashion.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: What we're discovering is that it's all but impossible to turn these things off.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if not addicting, they're downright habit forming, you know, and and people go to go to sleep with their iPhone.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: I have a patient who calls her husband's iPhone his plastic mistress because he's with it and never with her.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned obviously switching things off and disconnecting and unplugging and things like that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Are there other specific, if you like, coping mechanisms or things that you teach people with ADHD that might be applicable to the rest of the population?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I know you're working on something to that will be a big help.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I think our technology will help solve the problems our technology has created.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And your uh your system is wonderful for that.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: The the homeliest version of it is what I call a coach.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And a coach is like an administrative assistant, but who's who's aware of the challenges of modern life.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: So helps you prioritize, helps you make lists, helps you set boundaries, helps you say no, you know, helps you manage your your time, helps you manage your money, you know, helps you not overcommit.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because a lot of us are just victims of our own enthusiasms.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the the great problem of modern life is also the great advantage of modern life, which is you can do so much.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's the blessing and the curse.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, you you overcommit, take on too much, and the next thing you know, it's like having pigged out.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: You want to throw up.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So in the book, you also talk about something called um vast.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I'm really curious about that.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's the variable attention stimulus trait.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: If I got that right, um, yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: So tell us a little bit about VAST and where that fits into this whole picture.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I wanted another name because ADHD is so a demeaning, but B inaccurate.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a deficit of attention at all, it's an abundance of attention.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so and the two key elements in the condition are variable attention and the search for high stimulation.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we named it variable attention stimulus trait, and emphasis on trait because if you manage it right, it's a great asset.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't, it can ruin your life, you know.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it it's and there are very few other conditions like that where it's such high-stakes poker, it can take you to the top or to the bottom.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, suicides are higher in people with this condition.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you can be the self-made billionaire uh or the man who gives up and shoots himself.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a um and that's why I'm so passionate about getting the word out there and and and that people will get the right kind of help.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So many of the people who are listening to our podcast here will, whether they've got ADHD or not, um, they're all effectively looking to get more personally effective.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the biggest challenges that we find um people struggling with is focusing in the moment.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a, you know, I've got, I need to focus for the next 20 minutes or the next 25 minutes on this particular thing and not let anything else just distract me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so unfortunately, with all the distractions that you outlined before, that's becoming more and more of an issue for I think everybody.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: What strategies, if any, do you recommend specifically to help people get and stay focused in the moment that would apply to even a German audience?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And first of all, maybe most important, uh, don't expect yourself to be able to focus on something that does not interest you.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost impossible.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, maybe you can you can get by, I mean, filling out forms, that kind of stuff, we do it, but you know, it but when when people really want to focus in in a way that you know that requires full mental power, the first requirement is that it be interesting.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: It like I said, it's almost impossible to focus on something that that is is not interesting.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: So um uh so that's one thing.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh boundaries, use the control you've got, turn it off, close the door, put a sign on your door, do not interrupt, uh, put a sign on your iPhone, you know, you you you you you do have some control, and for 20 minutes, insist on not being interrupted.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then if the task is interesting, and if you've done the you know the obvious groundwork of enough sleep, uh hydration, you know, you're not in the middle of a bitter divorce or something that that's distracting you, then you can focus.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: If it's interesting and you have the boundaries, you know, you and you're not starving or you know, biological needs are taken care of, then you can focus.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: The the mind likes to focus, it wants to focus.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's interesting.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that there's some for certain people, there's an uh an exception that might be unusual or might be surprising to some people, which is music, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes having music on in the background, even loud music, can be helpful, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: I write all my books listening to music.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Music without words, but it's music.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: It it and the idea is the music engages that part of your brain that would otherwise be distracting you.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a parent and you got a kid and they listen to loud music when they work, let them listen, right?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Unless you can see it clearly is having the opposite effect, and the proof is in the pudding.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: If he doesn't write the paper, if he flunks the test, then you say, okay, goodbye to the music.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that appears to be like an individual response, right?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: For some people it's very helpful, for others not.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've also talked quite a bit.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there were two that uh that uh really spring to mind for me, which are uh, I know you're a big fan of exercise, and I know you're a big fan of pets.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm uh I mean, pets are awesome, and exercise is awesome in general.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Both of those things are great.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but other specific uh benefits that you see uh for people that are uh struggling with this trait um beyond what we normally think of as the usual benefits of exercise and and companionship?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the exercise generates those very same uh chemicals that the are the medications we take for ADD.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And uh pets are particularly dogs, you get massive doses of connection.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a lot of people with ADD feel rather disconnected.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and if you have a dog, you will never feel disconnected.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's no accident that God spelled backwards as dog.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Adela, thank you so much for your time today.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate it.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um thank you for the work you're doing.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're working on some very important stuff to help people, you know, gain control over the crazy busy world.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are you looking to hone the skills you need to thrive as work and the rest of our lives merge?
• 29:23
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• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: The WayTooBusy podcast was presented and produced by me, Matt Neal, and was brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 29:53
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• 30:01
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