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"Why Your Work Matters" with Tom Nelson · The Weight

• 0:00
  Chris McAlilly: I'm Chris McAlilly.
• 0:02
  Eddie Rester: And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:04
  Chris McAlilly: Today we're talking to Tom Nelson. Tom is the lead senior pastor at Christ Community Church in Kansas City, Missouri, but he's also, many years ago, started an organization called Made to Flourish. It's an organization that is meant to empower pastors and churches to integrate faith, work, economic wisdom, and the flourishing of their communities. And today we're talking about his most recent work, "Why Your Work Matters."
• 0:33
  Eddie Rester: He talks to us about the Sunday to Monday gap, that often we think of Christianity as our primary purpose is to gather on Sunday, but actually our primary purpose is to live in our workplaces, whether that workplaces at home or paid or unpaid on Monday, and then in the Monday world. And it's an amazingly theological and practical conversation at the same time, so much hope for the work of the church, but also, I think, a challenge for the church in how we redirect our focus to how we equip people for when they step out into the world on Monday.
• 1:14
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, I think so much of Christianity is a caricature, but so much of the Christianity in the popular culture is around "I have faith in Jesus, my Lord and Savior, so I can go to heaven when I die." And so much of the real stuff, the faith that's passed down and inherited through the saints, is a faith that has a thickness and a robustness to it, where we have this incredible story of God creating the world, creation unraveling and disintegrating, but then God's continual faithfulness through the Abrahamic covenant, through the story of Moses, and ultimately in the story of Jesus to redeem creation, and ultimately to take things to a place where everything is made new.
• 2:07
  Chris McAlilly: And this, that's the story of scripture from beginning to end.
• 2:11
  Chris McAlilly: What Tom does is to begin to unpack the ways in which that impacts what we do, whether we're working in business, economics, law, education, health care, all the different sectors. And he just has a lot of experience doing this within his church and for people across the country. And man, this is such a good conversation. I love this one.
• 2:34
  Eddie Rester: Just a gift. Just such a gift. It doesn't matter where you are, whether you're a pastor, a church member, somebody who's not sure. The way he frames the scriptural story, and then allows that to begin to define the work of the church, the work people, our conversations. Just, I was, you know, just, it was an exciting conversation. Enjoy it. Look him up. The book that he is releasing this spring, is "Why Your Work Matters." You can go on Amazon right now, order it.
• 3:04
  Eddie Rester: Tom Nelson. I think you're gonna be blessed by it. I think you're gonna be encouraged by it. I know you're gonna be challenged by it. But enjoy this conversation today. Make sure you like it. Share it. Share with the pastor, share with the church members. Share it with the leaders.
• 3:17
  Chris McAlilly: Share with your mama. Share it with your grandmama.
• 3:19
  Eddie Rester: Your mama or your daddy, your grandkids, somebody.
• 3:22
  Eddie Rester: Make sure somebody else besides you listens. But we're thankful for you and that you're in the journey with us.
• 3:28
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] Leadership today demands more than technical expertise. It requires deep wisdom to navigate the complexity of a turbulent world, courage to reimagine broken systems, and unwarranted hope to inspire durable change.
• 3:46
  Eddie Rester: As Christ-centered leaders in churches, nonprofits, the academy and the marketplace, we all carry the weight of cultivating communities that reflect God's kingdom in a fragmented world.
• 3:57
  Chris McAlilly: But this weight wasn't meant to be carried alone. The Christian tradition offers us centuries of wisdom if we have the humility to listen and learn from diverse voices.
• 4:07
  Eddie Rester: That's why The Weight exists, to create space for the conversations that challenge our assumptions, deepen our thinking, and renew our spiritual imagination.
• 4:17
  Chris McAlilly: Faithful leadership in our time requires both conviction and curiosity, rootedness in tradition and responsiveness to a changing world.
• 4:25
  Eddie Rester: So whether you're leading a congregation, raising a family, teaching students, running a nonprofit, or bringing faith into your business, join us as we explore the depth and richness of Christ centered leadership today. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] Well, today we're here with Tom Nelson. He works with a group called Made to Flourish. It's his work. And we're going to talk today about the intersection of spaces, how we move from Sunday faith to Monday life, how we think about flourishing in the world. So Tom, thanks for joining us today.
• 5:02
  Tom Nelson: Eddie and Christopher, it's just great, great to be with you. I'm excited about our conversation.
• 5:06
  Eddie Rester: I have to say that the 10 minutes we've had to talk before the conversation have been engaging and fun, and really, I'm already, already excited about the conversation today.
• 5:17
  Tom Nelson: Well, I'm not very fun, but you guys are fun, so that must be it's going to be a fun conversation. No, it's really great to be with you. I'm looking forward to learning, listening, engaging with you.
• 5:23
  Tom Nelson: It'll be fun.
• 5:24
  Chris McAlilly: For folks who don't, don't know you and don't know your work, maybe give just kind of a the thumbnail bio.
• 5:30
  Chris McAlilly: Kind of, what's your story?
• 5:33
  Tom Nelson: Yeah, I mean my story, I had the privilege of serving a wonderful congregation in Kansas City, out in the middle of nowhere, right, flyover city, home of the Chiefs, or at least we used to say that. I don't know, but yeah, I've been here for 37 years. Can you imagine being a front row seat and on a good day when we started, there were two of us as members in an apartment. So I have a great privilege of serving a wonderful local congregation of Christians who, I'd say, love God with their mind really well, love God with their hearts and their hands. At least we attempt to do that. That's our aspirational goal.
• 6:05
  Tom Nelson: And so I still am a part of that. I will transition in my role in a year or so because I'm going to hand that off, and I'm excited about that, and I'm a part of launching and leading an organization called Made to Flourish. Made to Flourish is about, I guess, nine years old.
• 6:19
  Tom Nelson: We launched it, and the focus is to really help pastors and churches integrate faith, work, and economic wisdom for the flourish in their community. So we are trying to help build that bridge between we call this Sunday to Monday, and help churches really be churches for Monday. So that's kind of what I do.
• 6:35
  Chris McAlilly: I think so many church leadership conversations are about helping the church to self preserve, or to be larger or to be more vibrant. One of the things that I'm attracted to in your work is this kind of broader purview for the work of the church. And you use the word flourishing, which is a word that I think is really powerful.
• 6:59
  Chris McAlilly: I wonder how you define it.
• 7:03
  Tom Nelson: Yeah, well, flourishing is an organic metaphor. It's a life giving metaphor, unlike, you know, buildings or other kind of things. So I think embedded in that language is an organic understanding of the world, which I would say comes from creation, original creation. So I think we would simply understand flourishing from if we have a biblical worldview, if we understand creation story is something that's really shaping our imaginary, that God created us in an environment in relationship with creation, with himself and with one another, in a place of great abundance and joy. And that is the picture of the Edenic sort of flourishing that we were designed to have.
• 7:44
  Tom Nelson: Of course, we if we understand the double story that Edenic, beautiful place and relationship, relational integration and all that gets smashed a bit in Genesis three, with the entry of sin and death into the world. So but I think that has to be tied to God's original creation design of flourishing, that is individual.
• 8:03
  Tom Nelson: It's internal. It's external.
• 8:07
  Tom Nelson: It's vertical, and it's horizontal of all creation.
• 8:10
  Eddie Rester: When I think of that, I think of Jesus saying,"I came that you might have life and have it abundantly," abundant life. And so often we, people in the church, confuse that, twist that, stumble over that in some ways, sometimes well meaning ways, because they make abundance about a very Western notion of abundance. I think that it's about, what do we have? What have we accomplished? What do we do? And values on that and so but there's a much broader way I think that you would want us to read that.
• 8:47
  Tom Nelson: I would think so, too. I do think, you know, we're all products are of our cultural framework. But I would just turn back to the Old Testament text.
• 8:54
  Tom Nelson: I mean, I'm a Christian pastor and an author. I think it's the greatest story ever told. And when we think about the Old Testament, I would just say, that conversation, I would center that idea in Genesis 17, one through three or four. And Genesis 17 is the crescendo the Abrahamic covenant of God's redemptive story in the world.
• 9:16
  Tom Nelson: Of course, it looks forward to Jesus and back to the garden, but God says to Abram in Genesis, 17, "I am the Lord God Almighty, walk before me and be whole." And so the that invitation is built around two Hebrew imperatives. Literally, it means to walk in my face. It's the idea of intimacy. And then, behold, is the Hebrew idea of Tom Tamim, which means to be integral or seamless or whole, and then flowing from that is God's wonderful promise to Abram as the father of the nations, the plan of redemption, right, that he's going to have a new identity, a new name, and the nations are going to be blessed, and he's going to be amazingly fruitful. So here's the flow that I see of God's story. That we are called to live into that is more comprehensive. I'd use the word integral, because that's the Tom Tamin Hebrew idea.
• 10:06
  Tom Nelson: And just the flow, I just might say, guys, the flow in the crescendo they were at covenant really frames that, I think, beautifully, that the foundation of flourishing and the life we were created to live is first intimacy. So relational intimacy is number one of flourishing and how we are designed. And from that flows integralness, that's wholeness, seamlessness versus bifurcation or dichotomies. And then out of intimacy and integrity flows influence or fruitfulness: our new identity and our blessing to the world.
• 10:33
  Tom Nelson: So I've always found Genesis 17 frames that idea. I don't know Eddie and Christopher, that makes sense to you, but it really frames the sequence and flow of God's design for human flourishing in creation and obviously in redemption, through Abraham and not through Jesus, as Christians, we believe.
• 10:51
  Eddie Rester: I think right there around Genesis 17, correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't read that full story a long time, but I think that somewhere right in there is where Abraham says to God, "oh, that Ishmael might live in your sight." This moment where he's like, "don't I have enough? Do I have to keep moving? Keep walking?" I mean, is that right in there as well?
• 11:12
  Tom Nelson: I think so, because the Hagar story. But the key on that is that's true. I'm sure you're right, but it's also the anticipation of the promises. So he has this massive gap, I think, from 13 year gap between 16 and 17. But I love that picture of the crescendo of Abrahamic covenant, because I do think that really addresses what you're saying, that true flourishing is not only individual, it's communal, and it flows from intimacy with God and others. So intimacy, relationships are number one. I mean, see, then wholeness flows out of that, or integral life, and then out of that flows the sense of influence and blessing and fruitfulness. I think that's the pattern of scripture that we want to try to live into.
• 11:56
  Eddie Rester: And I think sometimes, as I hear that how we... Maybe barriers? I'm trying to figure out how to ask the question, even, of we lay down our own barriers to that sometimes, I think. Don't we? in our communal life and our family life, even in our our church life? How do you see all of that working out with our own brokenness?
• 12:19
  Chris McAlilly: I think one of the things...
• 12:20
  Tom Nelson: That's a big question.
• 12:21
  Chris McAlilly: I think one of the things I appreciate about your approach is the storied nature of it. And so, you know, part of the, yeah, we could name a range of barriers, and they get conceptualized or framed up in particular ways within our cultural narratives and our political narratives, and oftentimes they're kind of distilled down through whatever polarized kind of tribe you find yourself in. And so you're looking at the barriers that the other tribe puts forward.
• 12:51
  Chris McAlilly: And I think, you know, the biblical story is that creation, I guess, as I read your work, Tom, and you can kind of flesh this out, is that if you begin with creation, kind of this thick description of God's desire for human flourishing, broadly conceived, then sin and the fall and the kind of the brokenness and the unraveling of creation becomes a really important part of the story, and one that I think is unique to what Christians are bringing to the broader conversation within the public sphere. I wonder if you could just kind of flesh that that part of the story for folks, just kind of remind us, talk us through how you think about how the fall impacts or unravels human flourishing.
• 13:39
  Tom Nelson: Yeah. And maybe I could just back up a little bit from my own studies. I was taught a lot on systematic theology, which is important for logical consistency. I didn't have the same teaching as I needed for biblical theology, which deals with canonical coherence, is taking all the scripture and trying to find the narrative connections. So I may say, first of all, before we get to the fall, if you'd like, I think one of the most important things to help us navigate through the complexity of scripture and the complexity of life and bringing God's story to our story, into our world, is to see the scriptures primarily through the lens, again, without too much reductionism.
• 14:14
  Tom Nelson: That, I mean, there's a lot of complexity. It is a four chapter story. Much of my writing, much of our conversation, and what I do, we talk a lot about this four chapter story, guys, and I just want to, let me highlight that, and I'll point if you want to go a little more into chapter two. But really, one of the most helpful ways to navigate scripture and navigate our own lives and bring God's story into our story is the fourth chapter story, which is the Bible narrative that has the original creation, the fall, redemption, and then new creation, or consummation. And the probably the best way to grab that bridge is to think of four words that mirror this: the ought, the is, the can, and the will.
• 14:54
  Tom Nelson: And most of my writing and the work, we talk a lot about framing the biblical story through what ought to be right That's original. Creation in Genesis one and two, what is begins, at least in the corruption, disintegration is a better word, of God's perfect creation in Genesis three and following. We see a lot of that.
• 15:09
  Tom Nelson: We experience it in our own life, right? The is, is of our brokenness and life and justice and culture. But God didn't leave the is as it is, for one.
• 15:21
  Tom Nelson: H e says, "I'm going to make this different." So there's the can is redemption. God is in a plan of redeeming his creation, all of creation. So the audience can but one day, the Bible says, at the end of time and the new heavens, new earth, life will be as it ought to be. It's kind of like a return to the garden, Garden City. So the way I communicate that, the way I navigate that is the ought is I will interact with people. I will help them see through culture, through injustice, through marriage, through relationships, through what ought to be, what is, work as well, what ought to be, what is, what can be, what will be.
• 15:56
  Tom Nelson: I have just found that not only really tracks the biblical story with integrity, that the whole canonical coherence, but it helps us as individuals live into that story. Because a lot of conversations around marriage, right, around work, and people said to me, "That's kind of an ugly is, isn't it?" Yeah, that is, there's a lot of is, a lot of brokenness, but God has called us to be agents of redemption, to move creation, move our lives more with, obviously, in Christ and my understanding to what can be.
• 16:23
  Tom Nelson: But then ultimately, we have to have hope for realism. We're not going to fully bring this new heavens, new earth in to bear, and one day we will, and God will in his own way, and we have to live in hope for realism and proximate justice and proximation, because we're not yet in that future space. Is that helpful?
• 16:40
  Chris McAlilly: It's very helpful.
• 16:42
  Tom Nelson: I mean, it has helped me. It helps me navigate.
• 16:43
  Chris McAlilly: No, it's so helpful.
• 16:44
  Eddie Rester: Absolutely.
• 16:45
  Chris McAlilly: It's so helpful.
• 16:45
  Chris McAlilly: And, you know, I think maybe for folks who so... I think that biblical framework and the story, that scripture kind of allows us to map over the world, is one that we think of as a Sunday story. It's a story that gets told on Sunday, and then folks, you know, kind of come in and leave. And then, you know, there's somebody who works... I was talking yesterday to a guy who's working as a vice president of regional bank, and he's talking to folks, he's looking at the economic indicators, and they don't look great. You know, there's a lot of uncertainty that's being kind of introduced into the market by kind of new set of political aims related around tariffs.
• 17:34
  Chris McAlilly: There are questions about what the Federal Reserve is going to do as it relates to inflation.
• 17:44
  Chris McAlilly: There are questions around how tariffs of Canada and Mexico are going to impact really important industries like construction and how that's going to affect the housing crisis in America. How do you think about those? Take the framework and then apply it to how you might communicate to somebody who's a Christian, who's a Christ-centered leader, working in a bank context, navigating complex economic realities.
• 18:13
  Tom Nelson: Yeah, well, you beautifully articulated all the macro. There's macro, economic, political forces that any individual that is in church on Sunday with you that you serve, a parishioner, is going to enter a Monday world.
• 18:25
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 18:25
  Tom Nelson: In an economic world, a marketplace that is global, that is all deeply interconnected. And so I think the fact that, as pastors and some of us are aware of that, that helps us understand how complex God's people are serving him and the neighbor in this really well, it's a volatile time. The military uses the VUCA acronym everywhere. It's like--and this is true in the pandemic--It's volatile. It's uncertain. It's chaotic. And it's ambiguous. This is the market we're in. This is the world we're in. So I think I would just simply say, and we could talk more about that, but that is the uncertainty, the volatility, the ambiguity, the challenges, the change, the pace of change. We have AI. Just there's a lot that's being thrown at us in our cultural moment.
• 19:12
  Tom Nelson: But I think what we have to do is to say, first of all, if we believe in God, he's sovereign over this. Ultimately, he's moving history forward. That doesn't take out human agency or responsibility. And I think we have to say that at the end of the day, we believe that God is going to move history and move our lives forward to a good end.
• 19:28
  Tom Nelson: And I think that helps give me hope. And then I think there's a recognition that suffering, right, the is, the brokenness of the world, in the workplaces and our marriages and friendships and relationships is a part of our Monday world.
• 19:44
  Tom Nelson: You know, at the church I serve, we talk a lot about it being a church for Monday. Our focus is equipping God's people for their Monday world, wherever that is, paid and unpaid work. So I want to help them understand that they're agents of flourishing.
• 19:57
  Tom Nelson: They're agents of hopefully good ethics and virtue in their space. But they're also going to face the difficulty of suffering, and that suffering and struggle is not senseless.
• 20:06
  Tom Nelson: It's a part of our formation. So we could press more into that, but it's not to minimize the difficulty. As a follower of Jesus, it's very real, but it can be embraced with a sense of hope for realism rather than despair.
• 20:17
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, just to press on this, I know I won't
• 20:17
  Eddie Rester: No, go ahead.
• 20:19
  Eddie Rester: give Eddie a chance to jump in.
• 20:22
  Tom Nelson: There's a lot there.
• 20:22
  Tom Nelson: I mean...
• 20:23
  Chris McAlilly: There's a lot There's a lot there. And I think, I guess the thing that I think about is, the is of the economic macro realities are what they are. And oftentimes, I think we live in a flattened world where is, is all we see, you know. And it takes... You know, God is not the subject of active verbs. And there is no transcendent story that might break into what Charles Taylor would call the eminent frame.
• 20:52
  Chris McAlilly: There's a sense that we're just living on this one plane, world, and oftentimes that's a world in which there's a scarcity of goods and resources. And so we live in this kind of zero sum world from an economic perspective.
• 21:10
  Chris McAlilly: And if you place the story of economics, what is, within this larger story of what ought to be, what was in the beginning, and what could be by virtue of God's creative action, both in creation and in redemption, I guess, for me, the way I think about is that it opens up the possibilities. You might invest in certain areas that other people would see is an impossibility. Christians might come in and see possibility for human flourishing, that might not otherwise be there.
• 21:43
  Chris McAlilly: You know, I see people doing that in places like the Mississippi Delta or I see it...
• 21:47
  Tom Nelson: Right.
• 21:48
  Chris McAlilly: You know, happening in kind of urban centers. I think about the work of Homeboy Industries, or somebody like Gregory Boyle who goes in to a gang infested area of LA and sees possibility for human flourishing that isn't there. I think those are the kinds of imaginative possibilities for communal flourishing that the framework that you're putting forward, I think, makes possible. And I wonder how you've seen that play out, maybe in your pastoral ministry and then some of the work that you're doing.
• 22:18
  Tom Nelson: Yeah, that's a great question. I'll just give you an example of a former CEO, and it doesn't have to be a CEO. It could be a barista. So I'm just saying we have lots of those kind of folks in the church I serve, but his name is Rod, and Rod came into our congregation and began to understand the biblical story that we teach.
• 22:34
  Tom Nelson: We're a church for Monday, and is he wanted to understand how his faith really speaks into his life, his workplace, and his experience. And so he began to wrestle deeply with the reality of payday loans in our city.
• 22:48
  Tom Nelson: This is a classic example. And so he had a lot of expertise, a lot of connections around the city because of his position, and began to really creatively think how he could make a difference there. And he has, because the poor, marginalized need liquidity, they just get, right, to keep the payday loan industry you have this high rate of return. Anyway, there's all kinds of economic justifications, but he's really done something about it by creating a new path forward that allows liquidity with much lower interest rates and much less of a predatory approach.
• 23:20
  Tom Nelson: And I'm just saying that's one example, but it was the biblical story and his faith that moved him, not only from compassion to capacity. So this is what I've tried to communicate from Luke 10 in a book called "The Economics to Neighborly Love." And we can chat a bit about that, but I think one of the core things that brings us together as Christians, of all frameworks, is the great commandment. And Rabbi Jesus frames the great commandment of Luke 10 in response, if you remember, in response to, how do I inherit eternal life? What does it mean to love my neighbor? And so Jesus yelled the story that it's one of the most famous stories in response to, "who is my neighbor?" What we often miss is Jesus does not only describe who my neighbor is, which is anyone, right? It changes the idea of family, someone in need, but what does neighborly love require?
• 24:09
  Tom Nelson: And that's what we miss, and what you see in that story, most of our listeners know that story, right, but we know from scholarship, Dr. Bailey has done this really well and others, that parable makes sense because Jesus was a small business person, a carpenter. It's framed an economic framework. When you look at it, it's a picture of economic injustice with economic generosity. That's what contrasts that story. So simply to say that, again, I've written much more on this, but like how we understand loving our neighbor, Jesus profoundly changes. And at the heart of that, you guys know, you're great guys, at the heart of that is this very intense word about compassion. They're a good samaritan, call them good. The Samaritan is most likely a business person going down to Jericho. He wasn't a clergy person. Jericho was a very, very important trade center. He's probably on a business trip.
• 25:00
  Tom Nelson: We're almost certain of that.
• 25:00
  Tom Nelson: We're at least confident in the story. H e's not a clergy, and he sees the Jewish person, a Jewish person that was beaten and left dead and robbed by the road.
• 25:10
  Tom Nelson: So all that point is that story, Jesus says the one who really is the neighbor is one who expresses compassion. That's literally a visceral look, seeing someone else's family member, who's the other. But we often miss is not only does this good samaritan have compassion, he has capacity. He not only cares for the immediate needs, he takes this guy to an inn, puts down his credit card, and covers all his expenses, right?
• 25:39
  Tom Nelson: So we often miss in that story, that Jesus is saying neighborly love requires not just compassion, but capacity.
• 25:45
  Tom Nelson: So it was his economic life, his diligent work and labor that allowed him, this Good Samaritan, to really, truly love a neighbor in need in tangible ways. Because you know, if you have compassion without capacity, it's frustration. If you have capacity without compassion, it's alienation. But if you have both, you have true love of neighbor. So I'm just saying that even that story helps us guys bridge our personal faith with our neighbor and and the economic implications and capacity is an important part of that.
• 26:17
  Eddie Rester: And when you're thinking about becoming a church for Monday, that's when the work, I think, of the church on Sunday, when you're thinking on a Monday basis, it changes the work for the community we gather with on Sunday, because we have to be a community on Sunday that releases people.
• 26:39
  Tom Nelson: Yes.
• 26:40
  Eddie Rester: And prepares them, that helps them think about compassion, but also helps them think about capacity. And I think that's, you know, it's easy to say, "Someone should feed them." It's easy to say,"Someone should deal with predatory lenders in our world." It's easy to pray against someone or pray for something on Sunday, and we do it every Sunday. It's a different thing to creatively call out a mindset that says we can take what is, talk about, what can be yes, and so that we experience what will be.
• 27:19
  Tom Nelson: One day. Yeah.
• 27:21
  Eddie Rester: Will be one day fully, but begin to taste it and to see it and just sense it right now. And as we think about that model, what is, what does that call church on Sunday? And I know church isn't just... but how does, how do we begin to shape the church that meets on Sunday?
• 27:39
  Tom Nelson: Oh, that's such a great question. Eddie, you guys.
• 27:42
  Tom Nelson: I mean, that's the heart of what I'm, in my small way, trying to shift, because it is a mindset.
• 27:44
  Tom Nelson: Or, let's just use word paradigm lightly, at least a paradigm shift. And from my own experience, I just did not have that when I started being a pastor. I was much more focused on how well I did on Sunday and the scorecard was primarily Sunday. And again, as pastors, those of you who are pastors and are listening, that's important, or church leaders. Doing the gathered worship space is really important. I'm not minimizing that, but what I didn't see 30 years ago was the primary focus of my calling was to equip God's people for their Monday world, their callings. And that not only shaped how I understood my calling, but how I equipped them for their Monday. My scorecard was how well I did on Sunday, rather than how God's people did on Monday.
• 28:29
  Tom Nelson: So this mindset has to be driven by theology, a rich biblical theology that brings both truth and grace and compassion to people's Monday world. So what I just want to suggest to you guys, and my own experience is that that mindset of becoming a church for Monday, thinking through how our Sunday changes when Monday's in mind, is profound in terms of liturgy, pastoral prayers. We can talk about the liturgical change, the message change, the illustrations, the prayers. It does impact how you do Sunday.
• 28:58
  Tom Nelson: But let me just simply say the Sunday to Monday gap is what many researchers, Dr David Miller, that used to be at Yale, he's at Princeton now, has coined this dangerous dichotomy in the American church as the Sunday to Monday gap. Maybe you've heard of that, but it is perilous for at least five reasons. Can I mention them really briefly?
• 29:22
  Eddie Rester: Oh yes, 100 percent.
• 29:23
  Tom Nelson: I'm just saying the mindset is important, guys. I'm getting a little animated here.
• 29:25
  Tom Nelson: And if you're a church leader, lay leader or pastor, how you teach, how you equip your people, how you help prepare them for Monday, is huge for all of us. So I hope this really resonates. But if we have a Sunday to Monday gap. Really just think of the Christian faith, it's primarily what we do on Sunday, not to minimize that, and not profoundly shaping and forming and guiding my Monday world, my callings and relationships and my workplace.
• 29:53
  Tom Nelson: Workplace is really important, paid and unpaid, because it's a primary place we spend our life.
• 29:57
  Tom Nelson: But five things are at stake. If I have a Sunday to Monday gap, then I think my primary place of worship is Sunday, not Monday.
• 30:05
  Tom Nelson: And I want to challenge us that our primary place of God earning worship is our Monday world.
• 30:07
  Tom Nelson: Secondly, our Monday world, whatever that is, whatever that calling is, it's also our primary place of spiritual formation. It's also the primary place of gospel possi This is where we incarnate the gospel in our workplaces, and how we live, right, how we love others, how we work, how we serve. But it's also fourth, our Monday place is a place of gospel proclamation.
• 30:30
  Tom Nelson: We're called to be witnesses, both in deed and word, to our neighbors, to our colleagues, and many of my parishioners have more conversation with their colleagues in India on a Monday than you do across the street.
• 30:42
  Tom Nelson: That's the world we live in.
• 30:43
  Eddie Rester: I think, as you think through, back through And then lastly, my Monday is the primary place I love my neighbor. I mean, in serving the common good, it's not just taking them soup when they're sick across the street, and that's awesome. But our paid, unpaid workers, are our primary way we love our neighbor. And I often say the greatest workers are the greatest neighbors. So I'm just saying, we, all of us, and we're trying to do this with Made to Flourish through a large pastor's network and churches. I encourage people not to add more to their plate, but to say, are you really equipping the people God has given you in the flock to live their Christian life fully on their Monday world? And that's what I think we need to move toward.
• 31:23
  Eddie Rester: church history, we talked to a guy named Kavin Rowe who's at Duke, before, wrote"Christianity's Surprise," one of the best books I've read in years, and the idea that the early church sent out people who surprised the world with grace and love and hope, and if our primary place of doing God's work is on Sunday morning, then for a world that's given up on the church for a lot of good reasons...
• 31:54
  Tom Nelson: Indeed.
• 31:55
  Eddie Rester: There's a lot of good reasons they've given up on church.
• 31:58
  Tom Nelson: That's just right, Eddie.
• 31:59
  Eddie Rester: Then they will never have an opportunity to encounter the gospel in life.
• 32:06
  Tom Nelson: Yeah.
• 32:07
  Chris McAlilly: So there's some there's some parallels between what Kavin Rowe says and the framework that you offer. One of the things he says is that they're really kind of four key, interrelated themes that the early church espoused. One was a new vision of what it means to be human in light of Christ.
• 32:25
  Tom Nelson: Indeed.
• 32:26
  Chris McAlilly: Christ being the true human and kind of the expression of what it means to be of true humanity; trust in the power of God by the Holy Spirit to form Christians, to empower and sustain Christian witness; a powerful narrative, a story of everything from creation to new creation; and then a commitment--and this is where I think it dovetails--is a commitment, empowered by God, to cultivating new and renewed institutions that bear witness to this new vision of what it means to be human.
• 32:55
  Chris McAlilly: You have to have institutions, like hospitals.
• 32:58
  Tom Nelson: I can tell you love that book. I'd love to read it.
• 32:59
  Chris McAlilly: What's that?
• 32:59
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, it's a great book. And you guys...
• 33:02
  Eddie Rester: It's only about this, this thick.
• 33:04
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. Because if you haven't... So St Jude is in our backyard. It's just up in Memphis. And it's a great example of a thriving institution with an incredible culture that's rooted in the story, I mean, ultimately, of the gospel, caring particularly for the most vulnerable among us, the widows, the orphans, those who are poor and giving them an opportunity to receive great health care. One of the things I learned about St Jude when I had a friend of mine whose daughter had cancer at 18 months old is that you can't pay for health care there. You can pay for someone else's health care, which is an incredible model of generosity and abundance and...
• 33:51
  Eddie Rester: And flourishing.
• 33:52
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. And ultimately, it's saying that the children in our midst, they're experiencing the healing power of Jesus Christ, and becoming the people that God desires and intends them to be is more important than the bills that their family would incur. And you know, one of... The extent to which this is embedded in the culture of the institution, is such that not everyone who comes to St Jude will live. You know, there are kids that don't make it. And there was a story from about a decade ago of a family, and I can't remember where they were from in Central America, but their daughter did not survive, came to St Jude and didn't survive. And there was another family that ultimately paid the cost and allowed for the accompaniment of the body to return back home and for a proper burial to be made for this daughter.
• 34:50
  Tom Nelson: Sounds like Luke 10.
• 34:54
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, and so much of it... I mean, I think the fact that St Jude is in the world deepens the credibility of a witness. And, you know, it's the built environment and the institutions that are led by people who kind of take this mindset from Sunday into Monday, that...
• 35:10
  Tom Nelson: It's beautiful.
• 35:10
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, it's just some powerful example. Anyway, it dovetails very nicely with what I hear you saying.
• 35:17
  Tom Nelson: I love that.
• 35:18
  Eddie Rester: I'm going back into the local church. In fact, by the time this comes out, I may be back in the local church after almost a year and a half serving an organization that was equipping the local church, but heading back to local church.
• 35:31
  Eddie Rester: And so I'm fascinated right now by this idea of making sure that we are closing that gap between Sunday and Monday and in creating this body that is so flourishing that just overflows through the people who encounter it. And you talked about how it changed the liturgy and the prayers and the things, can you give me an example? Give us your example of some of the ways that maybe Sunday was different because the focus was turned to Monday.
• 35:58
  Tom Nelson: Sure. So it depends on your ecclesial traditional, of course, and how you have to adapt that appropriately. But several things changed when we began to shift. This is 25, almost 30 years ago. One, our language changed when we preached and communicated up front. Like, there are language, at least in my tradition, that sometimes we carry through that aren't really integral language.
• 36:19
  Tom Nelson: So for example, we never use the word "full time Christian work." Maybe you don't do that in your context or ministry. We seldom used that because most people who hear that think of just pastors and missionaries. So language itself, at least, we're more sensitive to language that reinforces what we believe, rather than impoverished language. We'll seldom use"sacred secular." Other kinds of things that we feel are... There are better words for that. So the words we use, illustrations we use in sermons, have a deep connection of where people are on their Monday world. We look for that. Workplace, wide ranges of callings, paid and unpaid, stay at home, spouse, retirees, wherever they are in the world.
• 37:08
  Tom Nelson: We think very carefully about that.
• 37:11
  Tom Nelson: We also have a thing, not every Sunday, but we call them "this time tomorrows." So you imagine this is really, a lot of churches now are doing this around the country. It's a three-minute vocational testimony of the laity. The clergy invites someone up they already know, and they ask three questions. The questions, after you introduce them, are just like, "Tell me where has God called you this time tomorrow?" So it's a picture of where God specifically has called them in their Monday world.
• 37:37
  Tom Nelson: Secondly is, "what are the joys that you experienced as a follower of Jesus in your Monday calling?" Then again, that could be someone stay at home changing diapers or changing a company, right? I mean, so or a student.
• 37:46
  Tom Nelson: We just had a student last week at one of our campuses talk about what it was like for him on Monday. And then third, "what are the challenges you face in a broken world as a follower of Jesus in your Monday calling?" Because there's both, right?
• 38:00
  Tom Nelson: There's the good, the hard, the ugly. And then we say, how can we pray for you?
• 38:07
  Tom Nelson: I have to tell you just personally, I'm a decent preacher. I'm not the greatest in the world, but like when we have this time tomorrow, nobody's asleep. Everybody's locked on to that moment, because we're talking to people's worlds. They understand that. We celebrate that. We commission them. We communicate.
• 38:21
  Tom Nelson: We don't in any way minimize missionaries or pastors or 501(c)(3) workers. We just elevate the rest. So I'm just saying there are things we do, a commissioning, benedictions.
• 38:31
  Tom Nelson: Like the benediction we'll often use is we'll say something like, whether it's out of Psalm 90.
• 38:37
  Tom Nelson: I'm being really practical about Psalm 90:17, is the great end of Psalms. Like, "Lord, confirm the work of our hands. Yes, confirm the work of our hands." Or we may say something like, you know, "We have been delighting in the presence of God and each other as the gathered church. Now God is calling us to be the scattered church, to go on mission with him, in his presence, for his purposes in our Monday worlds." We do this across our campuses, but those are things that we've adapted to try to be more of a church for Monday. And let me just say, as you're going back into church, Eddie, specifically, we're talking about the early church, and I want to commend you another really brilliant book by a Mennonite scholar called Alan Kreider. It's called "The Patient Ferment of the Early Church," and he documents how the early church profoundly changed the world through the marketplace. You remember Lydia, I mean the natural movements of the economy and the marketplace.
• 39:28
  Tom Nelson: So let me just challenge you with a thought as you go back or your listeners. When we look at the first, second or third century the church, we have to realize that it was uniquely set up. Rabbi Paul talks about the fullness of time God sent forth his Son, in Galatians. But that's not a prophetic timeline or historical timeline. That's a geopolitical context. So we know in the first and second, third century, with the Pax Romana, and yes, the peace of Rome was brutal and coercive. I'm not minimizing that part, but it allowed some stability for the gospel to go forth to the world from warring tribes. And you know, the Romans had this massive road building project.
• 40:06
  Tom Nelson: You still can walk on those roads.
• 40:08
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, they're still there.
• 40:08
  Tom Nelson: Yeah. The gospel was taken by these roads. And then they also had the lingua franca of the day that allowed communication, which was Koine Greek. Well, think about as we go in the 21st century. Think of the parallel. So for pastors or church leaders not to equip their people to help them think creatively and imaginatively for being on mission on Monday is to miss the open door of the 21st century.
• 40:31
  Tom Nelson: Think about today with me, just for a moment, like you're going back or whoever's listening, like never before in the world ever has the world been more connected through the internet, through global communication and the global economy. I'm not saying that's all perfect, but I mean, it's all connected. We have the lingua franca. The day I was in England, not too long ago, 96 leaders from 96 nations.
• 40:53
  Tom Nelson: You guys were there. We all spoke in English. Okay? It was a common language. We have the common currency, which is still the dollar. So I'm saying there's a unique coming together of the world in the marketplace on Monday, and if we don't help our people and our mission as a local church, focus significantly, we're missing it.
• 41:19
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, and it's, yeah, it's powerful. And I think...
• 41:22
  Tom Nelson: I just think that's about this...
• 41:25
  Eddie Rester: I'm scratching notes down as fast as I can take them.
• 41:27
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah.
• 41:27
  Tom Nelson: But I mean, we really believe that. I mean, that's not the only mission, but if we miss it, we're really missing the open door opportunity for the gospel and for the church today. At least in the westerner world.
• 41:37
  Chris McAlilly: Ultimately, people's... You know, I think it's not just breaking down this distinction between the secular and the sacred or between the private and the public as it relates to faith. I think this is a huge problem. I was talking to a friend of mine that comes out of the Black church and she was just telling me, this is not something that we deal with, this distinction, you know, because it's a different kind of imagination. And I was like, this is just, you know, what happens in the white church, whether it's the evangelical church or the mainline church, is that distinction gets made between public and private, and then, you know, we do have this robust understanding of faith.
• 42:16
  Chris McAlilly: Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior. I'll go to heaven when I die. And then people just do whatever they want on Monday, you know, and through the week.
• 42:24
  Tom Nelson: That's not exactly integral in my mind. I mean, I'm not minimizing the importance of forgiveness our future state, but, but that's, I think, a shrunken understanding of the Gospel.
• 42:34
  Chris McAlilly: there's just an opportunity to live a much more interesting and ultimately, hopefully surprising faith, you know. And so sometimes you know, one of the things, again, coming back to Kavin Rowe, the sense that, you know, Christianity is all around us, and yet we don't, in some ways, we don't even know what it really is. And I think that there's a power here, not only to understand is the title of of the book that you have coming out, 'Why Your Work Matters." There is an opportunity to both understand that for yourself, and if you're a church leader or a pastor, for those in your congregation. I also think there's an opportunity for us to just rediscover what the faith really is. You know, what it was, what it ought to be, and what it can and will be in the fullness of God's work with us.
• 43:23
  Chris McAlilly: This has been such a great conversation. We could go on and on and on. I do wonder. One of the things I wanted to ask you is, you know, at the very beginning of this book, you attribute it, or you offer it to Dallas Willard, "whose brilliant mind, kind heart, warm friendship and wise mentoring has been a treasured gift of grace" in your life and work. I wondered. I just wanted Dallas Willard keeps showing up in various contexts as one of those saints and kind of mentors of a previous generation. I thought.
• 43:57
  Chris McAlilly: I wondered if you know, normally you would kind of start with that attribution. I wondered if we might kind of end coming back around to his witness. Why is he so powerful as kind of an exemplar of this for you?
• 44:11
  Tom Nelson: Well, again, I wanted to dedicate this work to Dallas. I had the great privilege of studying under him some, but also having time with him over the years. And it's the greatest gift of my life, in terms of a person who is truly from an interdisciplinary standpoint, absolutely brilliant. He was also a beautiful human being and a close and intimate follower of Jesus. That combination is extraordinary. I think, you know, again, I've said this the last, I don't know how many years since he's been gone, but I do believe that he is the CS Lewis of our time in terms of his influence. You know, he's trained as a philosopher, remarkable mind and heart. And I think that he really helped me frame some things that have helped me live a more integral Christian faith in my own life, but also in the world.
• 45:00
  Tom Nelson: So, yeah, I'm very indebted to Dallas. He was very kind. Spent time, two or three times in Georgetown home, and other places where I had time with him. I wish I could have had more. I'm grateful for what I had. But, yeah, I think his writings, but his life. You know, I gotta just stop here.
• 45:17
  Tom Nelson: But like, his writings are profound. They're really helpful in bringing more integral framing for the Christian faith in the world. I believe that deeply. But he was also the real deal. Can I say that? And that's that, yeah, homespun, but he was the real deal. And he lived what he preached and preached what he lived. And I'm so grateful that I had the time I did with him.
• 45:43
  Eddie Rester: I just started reading the book "The Scandal of the Kingdom," published after his death. It's just just a great reflection of the power of the kingdom that we're a part of, not just when we gather on Sunday, but when we live in the world on Monday. And I think as now that you say that I didn't realize I can feel some of his work about kingdom in your passion for how the work of the church matters and how we release people.
• 46:13
  Tom Nelson: Yeah, one of the things I'd say simply, is that Dallas Willard, early on, rescued my intellectual and spiritual life around a couple really key ideas. You know, a couple key ideas can transform your life, I mean and truly. And one of them was I had a heart, a strong commitment to truth, to teach truth, to live into it, to believe in it. And my understanding of discipleship was primarily around Jesus' precepts, and not his practices or his pedagogy. I'll use three P's. And Dallas helped me begin to see all three of those as integral to be an apprentice of Jesus. That, and the other thing I would say is, I mean, almost, he was, when you were with him, and just flowing out him was incredible profundity. I mean, just and try to be it just flowed from him.
• 47:03
  Tom Nelson: But one of the things he also he said that changed my framework.
• 47:06
  Tom Nelson: He said grace is always opposed to merit, but not effort. And his reframing of grace is extremely important that none of us can have any meritorious earning. But that doesn't mean we don't have a part that we play in becoming like Christ in terms of our own effort. And those things are the kind of things that just transformed my life, truly.
• 47:27
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, just so, you know, I think one of the things... If you're in a tradition where you're struggling to see hope, you know for yourself, or for your tradition, or for the church in the Western world, or wherever it is that you kind of run, bump up against a sense of despair.
• 47:47
  Chris McAlilly: What I always find is that finding a saint, someone, one thinker, somebody from Christian history, either more contemporary in, you know, in the 20th century, or someone from back in the tradition, one saint, and going deeply with that particular individual's body of work can be something that can rehabilitate my hope.
• 48:08
  Chris McAlilly: And that was the case, has been the case for me and many, many others with Dallas Willard's work.
• 48:16
  Tom Nelson: Wonderful.
• 48:17
  Chris McAlilly: And I would just say, that I see that in in your work as well, Tom. And I'm not just saying you and your writing, but the institutions and the the opportunities that you're creating and your team is creating to offer people a different kind of way of thinking about what faith could be for their lives. So I wanted to just say thank you for that.
• 48:39
  Chris McAlilly: Thank you for doing that for folks across the country. Thank you for doing that with us today in this conversation. We're so grateful for your time.
• 48:48
  Tom Nelson: I wish we could have coffee. I would love to learn more from you guys.
• 48:51
  Eddie Rester: I know.
• 48:51
  Tom Nelson: I mean, it's been a delightful new friendship. Thank you for that gift.
• 48:54
  Eddie Rester: Come to Dallas.
• 48:54
  Eddie Rester: Come to Oxford. We'll meet you wherever. The book is "Why Your Work Matters," and so pick that up and find that Monday of faith. Thank you, Tom for your time today.
• 49:07
  Tom Nelson: Eddie and Christopher, thank you.
• 49:09
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 49:17
  Chris McAlilly: If you would like to support this work financially, or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com [END OUTRO].