Latest / Coaches Rising / 295 - Sophia Mose: The Inner Ecology of Identity

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295 - Sophia Mose: The Inner Ecology of Identity · Coaches Rising

0:01
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back.
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the coach's rising podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Today I'm joined by Sophia Mose who is a certified coach an IFS level 3 trained practitioner and she co-designed the IFS foundations for coaches training at the IFS Institute.
0:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I've really enjoyed my conversations on the finer details of
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[SPEAKER_01]: parts work with Sophia over the recent months.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to go into all things parts work today, applying parts work in your coaching practice.
0:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially if you're already doing that, we're going to get into some of the finer details of that today.
0:57
[SPEAKER_01]: How does Sophia view the self?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How could we think about self leadership with capital S, which is a key
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[SPEAKER_01]: Concept in IFS, we will talk about can coaches work with Excel parts.
1:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk a lot about identifying the subtle parts in coaches and ourselves that can show up as we work with clients and some of the key learnings that Sophia has developed from training coaches on how to use parts work in coaching.
1:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So, let's dive in, here's the podcast with Sophia Mose.
1:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So, here, I'm delighted to be recording this with you, having this conversation with, we've had several conversations about internal family systems and coaching, and there've always been really rich.
1:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So, we decided to record a podcast about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, we'll explore that topic today, but how are you, First of all?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing well.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just very excited to, again, be doing this with you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This time it's recorded, but for me it's just really good to dialogue with you about this, it's all big that I'm so incredibly passionate about as you know.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, thanks for having me.
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a real pleasure.
2:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, this question just kind of bubbled up for me as I was
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[SPEAKER_01]: and let's see what you take it but what for you is we've talked about what internal family systems is on a podcast before.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people right now is exploded in the world, you know, Dick Schwartz has been the originator of this type of parts work and you know it's really taking off for good reason it's very effective and powerful
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I won't start with the intro of like what is internal family systems, but we're at left to go today with you is applying it in coaching.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So this question came to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's the secret or the essence or the real, what is the real secret when it comes to being an effective practitioner of parts work in coaching?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big question.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the way I see it is that almost like the most important thing of it is the coach's own system.
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's often in with models and frameworks, there's a huge emphasis on what you're
3:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there of course are the competencies and how you do that and there's so much literature and ideas about presence and that that's so essential.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, what is so incredibly wonderful with IFS and of course it's very subtle.
4:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a very easy thing, but is that if you work with your own system.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you get it's a practice and you get that sociality of sensing what is going on in you while you're sensing what is going on with the client and the interaction of your either presence and expansive self-energy with the client and or your burden parts with the client's burden parts that's where the richness is.
4:37
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's not about always having to be this self-led coach that is because that becomes already not self.
4:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, saying that you always should be self-led, there is a shoot in there, it is a manager making you self-led.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm already going off on the side, the side path.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But in short, the
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[SPEAKER_00]: Working with your own self leadership will automatically mean you are there for the client and you are actively listening and the rest will happen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that for me is the most important thing of IFS and coaching.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say the client doesn't even know what you're doing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have never heard of parts of IFS, but you are fully aware of everything going on in your system and in the client system and those are assumptions, but you're tracking.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is already, there can be a huge shift and that's what the experiences in trainings and in supervision and that's, it's always back to your own, back to your own system.
5:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you brought a brought in that we can have manager parts that look like self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So could you just say what self is for people listening,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I mean
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[SPEAKER_00]: have found an easy way to to check for that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you can and you can say by flipping it around what self is not.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So anything that isn't well, no, let's start with what it is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a state or an essence, a state of being that when you are in that state,
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[SPEAKER_00]: That means your system has access to that energy, that source.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And what we then notice in ourselves and what others can notice in us is these eight see words that you often hear about, eight words that start with C, you know, for ease of reference doesn't mean those are the only ones.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And especially for the practitioner to five p's.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the five p's are presence, which again is a little bit like what is that, but okay, others are maybe easier true patients.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Perspective, the disease, zoom out to see the bigger picture, perseverance and playfulness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you have access to that creative.
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[SPEAKER_00]: presence.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Playfulness is different from humor.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to make a joke or to make a point, but you can become quite creative with clients.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're patient with the kind of true patience, not enforced.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I am sitting here, I need to wait till they're done talking and I want to interrupt and I'm stopping myself, but the true calm presence of that time disappears.
8:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So the eight seas are often, you've had Dick on the show.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Also, you've had David Kitching's people probably know them, but just to quickly remind listeners, our clarity, curiosity, compassion, creativity, calm, connectedness, courage, and confidence.
8:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So, of course, we can't have all of those all be present all the time,
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you, and of course, this is the work we do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We do when we're applying the IFS model of curiousties is such an important moment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If we're just staying with the coach and not talking about the actual inner work with a client, true curiosity and true compassion creates such a container that the client
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[SPEAKER_00]: is able to then tap into that, to that inside them.
9:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So self is not a part, so self does not do.
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So we coach with part and that's often a misconception that self is the one doing the coaching.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But self is the source, that the parts that we coach with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm an example, I'm speaking to you now in English.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So my mother language is Dutch.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I speak French the whole day because I live in France, not the whole day.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I speak French regularly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So my language part is doing that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I sometimes say I don't think self speaks French or Dutch or English or whatever other language.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a part that has had to learn that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we have a lot of parts that do for us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in a human body, on this planet, and we need to do things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But if those parts have access to that source, which for everyone is a different experience, so it can be very spiritual, it can be quite practical in some people, even.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But there is this knowing source, that if our parts have access to that, this compassionate, loving essence,
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[SPEAKER_00]: then they can work in their, at their best.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you have flexes to your creativity.
10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But the one who, you know, I, I mean, this is my way of thinking.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So who comes up with these really cool coaching questions, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you saw one asking questions like, wow, I want to write that down, that was amazing.
11:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and you hear that it comes from somewhere deep.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not from an analyst on the wall that they quickly look at and they pull it off of that list that they learned in there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, and that is a combination of parts that have that knowledge, they have done that coaching training.
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[SPEAKER_00]: because someone who has never had any coaching training sits in a conversation can ask deep questions, but it's not as honed as someone who has done the coaching training in the years of coaching.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So our parts learn use creativity and ask these questions.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Self is there as a resource.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that
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[SPEAKER_00]: is a little bit how I see it.
11:42
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot more to it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that's, and I'm curious, I'm really curious how you would see yourself because you speak to so many people and so many different versions of source presence that people talk about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really curious how you see it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this, this gets into, you know, it gets into the
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[SPEAKER_01]: what are parts, who are we, what is the self, you know, you're starting to articulate this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, in a way, this is where we get into, I don't know, I don't want to philosophize about it too much because I think you've got a lot of really powerful things to say about what you named before about the, you know, that managers can come in and masquerading herself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's really powerful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But coming back to your question,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love the inquiry because I hold it lightly and yet it's something that means a lot to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I, you know, a powerful influence on me has been Steve March and Hamid, you know,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, what you see if you study a lot of developmental models, spiritual models that though, you know, people talk about a shift from being in parts or identified with parts with a smaller perspective, but then one can shift into a place of presence, you know,
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[SPEAKER_01]: these are different than parts but I think so so when I'm so there can be a sense of presence you know sense of strength, love, compassion, all these kind of virtues and they have a certain intelligence to them and a certain felt sense of wholeness and I think that's often where my best coaching comes from but in the end I think
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, I think it doesn't matter whether we say they're more, you know, they're more deliberated kind of best sides of parts or whether they're present, you know, you know, maybe it just gets back to what's for a practical and applicable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think I hold the view, I think I hold the view that
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not always in parts, you know?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's maybe different to how Dick might see it or you see it this like, and I've had other guests on the podcast as well who've said this and I feel like even saying,
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when we talk about self, which I think is really wise, you know, I love it when you say it's, you know, it's actually difficult to kind of really say what it is because it's maybe not a thing, you know, you can't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, you know, when it's there, it's very practical because you can feel it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, my sense is maybe sometimes this kind of intelligence.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This intelligence that guides the coaching is self.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is a sense of the intelligence of life and that is where the questions are coming from.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But again, you know, that's where we get into kind of maybe more philosophical musings.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we could spend a lot of time kind of trying to debate that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And but I think the real, the real juice is where it gets practical.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one note on that though, because I think it is the same.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and of course, once you're in a model, it's important to stay consistent, but then that, because if you start mixing ideas, that's where it goes wrong, because as always, it works consistently, because whatever happens inside is what happens.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We aren't creating that, but to grasp it and to teach it to others, which, of course, is where it becomes important to stay so consistent, because otherwise people get confused.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying you're in parts when you're coaching because that's what's so confusing because you're not in it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The moment you're in it part, it is blending with you and it has taken over because then there's one.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's that team, so the harmony inside you of all that knowledge that has been acquired on this planet comes together with that intuition and that so
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[SPEAKER_00]: It is guided from that point of source and knowing, and the larger self, out there, whatever that is, but we don't know it when we feel it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So those questions come from deep, but it's still a part saying the language speaking.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, to keep that in mind that we have to do to speak or to, that is a part, it's my language part.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I know, for instance, other models, they will say, oh, but in IFS, yeah, but that's a part.
16:57
[SPEAKER_00]: No, people then make some part with a burden or a strategy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you say, oh, that's your perfectionist part.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, there is not a perfectionist part that is its own little being.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There is a part of you that has taken own a perfectionist strategy to keep another part of you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: from being triggered of, I'm not good enough, or I'm not this enough.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So parts take on, so for instance, a part that has as a strength, it uses or strength.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So your strength of discernment of conscientiousness, of appreciating beauty, those essences of you can take on the burden of that all needing to be perfect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: which you can also call limiting belief.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And NLP, or whatever else you want to confuse that, but to stay in the IFS, when that burden is released, that part can go back and be.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just it's original, wonderful self.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to activate your nervous system anymore, it doesn't have to put you in fight or flight.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Tunnel vision, it can go back to being in the green and being it's beautiful self.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And one thing to confuse, to make it work, and using parts have itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in our trainings, and you don't hear that a lot out there because it gets so confusing, but you connect from self to a part and you connect to the self of the part to its essence.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's, I've had this very subtle, it's very robust, it's been developed over 40 years with so many people just listening and noticing what goes on in their own system,
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[SPEAKER_00]: in the outside how systems interact with systems and with burdens and culture and legacy intergenerational burdens.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's incredibly robust, which is why I love it so much.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's so subtle.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we're saying exactly the same thing.
19:03
[SPEAKER_00]: There.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I love it.
19:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I just I first of all, I really appreciate the
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[SPEAKER_01]: level of discernment you're offering and yeah I feel really really aligned with what you're sharing and there's something very like wholesome about yeah there's these parts and they have gifts and but they take on burdens you know and then so we can help them release a burden and the gift can come online more fully so yeah now like I like that
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I come back to that point of, you know, when I said, when I asked that question, what's the, you know, it's kind of a provocative question, because I know there's many secrets or, you know, essence is to, to doing this work, but you talked about the presence of the coach, the coach coaching from, from self.
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And could you say something about,
20:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, in your, you know, you train coaches to use parts work to use internal family systems.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you often see that coaches struggle with that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, that they're actually not coaching from self in that way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a painful thing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's when when you discover that, I had my own moment where, you know,
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[SPEAKER_00]: We do our coach training with other trainings, you know, coaches typically do lots more trainings more that they love learning more.
20:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And they realize, okay, there's the fixer, there's the advisor, there's a lot of don't give advice, you know, there's a lot of those don'ts and, ooh, to pass or I see F, you cannot give your own opinion and you cannot teach and
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, we're also aware of those rescuers, fixers, and all those.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But then there are the subtle ones that we don't notice and that we think are us and those parts think they are us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying that that means you're doing a bad job as a coach.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But when you encounter that part of you that has been doing the coaching for you or with certain clients, that can also be at certain clients can bring out certain parts that take over.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That can be painful because maybe you are an MCC and at the highest level with the ICF and you're doing great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow!
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[SPEAKER_00]: And those parts themselves don't really like being discovered because they're very good at being in our blindspot.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that is where the real goal is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Once you encounter a part or multiple parts that come up, maybe with certain clients, or maybe when you're tired, because parts live in a body live in our physiology.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and live in our, we live our lives in an environment and we're influenced and, you know, so parts are not static or anything like that, they're very much in the soup of everything else.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe when we suddenly have less clients and we start worrying about having enough income, maybe a certain part starts taking over.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's in IFS, what is then called, because they often have qualities of self or they seem to have, there's some of these C or P words, but actually they're not.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually where then, the coaching can start getting stuck.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, that client is just not changing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're just not just,
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[SPEAKER_00]: you start feeling uncomfortable before you see a certain client that can be a sign that there's something going on or you start getting a little bit critical of a client.
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we call those are self-mearing or self-like parts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are different people calling them different words, because you can say that's not very nice to call the part self-like.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's trying to imitate.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But they mirror qualities of self.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And of course those are the hardest to find.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And when you do, then working with them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: going working with them either, you know, first on your own, but usually those you need to support someone else.
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[SPEAKER_00]: To unburden that part of why it feels it needs to come in, and what is it worried about if it didn't come in and didn't look coaching for you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How would you know like a self-like part is here?
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're already speaking to that, but, you know, especially the subtle ones, you know, I think like you've named a lot of coaches when they train their learning about, you know, maybe not working too hard with the client trying to solve things for them, a part that wants to get it right, you know, very understandable parts to show it when we're learning something new,
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[SPEAKER_01]: these most subtle parts that might still be there with experience coaches.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we know when they're there?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We maybe they've been there for so long.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We just don't even think it's a part.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you don't know.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why it is so important to go to supervision or to go to
24:30
[SPEAKER_00]: mentoring and where I see them often coming out when I do this coaching practice lab with people who have been trained in either coaches who have done the clinical trainings which used to be possible like I did for the IFS clinical out that's not possible anymore and there is this specific coaching training.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So people who've gone through that or who have done clinical training and our coaches.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: What you see is people will come with a client case, you know, like you have with therapists, they have their supervision and they're like, yeah, and there's just this client really activates me or I don't understand, they keep talking.
25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when people bring when you have your own, so if you do that for yourself, you're like, there's just this client where I don't know,
25:30
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something, or you start feeling a little bit judgmental about someone, or you start looking, or start feeling sorry for them.
25:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way that maybe is not compassion, but it's a little bit of pity and it's like, oh, it's so tough for them, I feel really for them.
25:51
[SPEAKER_00]: then that means there is a part there because there isn't that open-heart with compassion anymore.
25:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So whenever you start feeling a shift in yourself with while you're with the client, maybe you start thinking quite a little bit annoying or any shift where you're not fully attuned, that is where you can get curious.
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But you won't notice it, so that, you know, ideally we'd all notice that, so it comes off and out in, God, I have this difficult kind.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So when someone brings that, and I ask them, you know, tell me more and what exactly is your challenge there, and then ask them to check into their system.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Because inevitably, something will come out.
26:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they just won't do what they're saying.
26:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they keep committing and they're just not doing it.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, what a new needs them to commit to that.
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And it turns out there is an efforting part.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There is a critical part.
26:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They should be doing that.
26:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it may not even be the agenda of fully of that client.
27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: or there's something there that will be an interaction there.
27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So at that moment, when you then go deeper and check what that part is worried about, and it's great that if that client doesn't do what they say they're going to do, it's not at all to worry about the client, it's then they won't think of a good coach and I'll lose them as a client.
27:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So by looking at the worries that that part has for you, we have parts always have a positive intention for you, even if they do the most extreme things that have huge consequences in your life, they mean to help you, they have a hope for you.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So their hope is that this client booth think you're a really good coach for instance.
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is wherever you're stuck and as a short answer,
27:55
[SPEAKER_00]: However, the client gets stuck, you can get curious.
28:00
[SPEAKER_01]: What I like about this is that I think it's something we can all start to bring awareness to.
28:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think coaches do this naturally, but to pay attention in a session to where I move out of that state of
28:19
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, of alignment, connection, openness, patience, all those words you brought.
28:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I can track that in myself, you know, like, you know, it might be, certainly, there's a kind of felt sense of tension somewhere in my body, you know, maybe there's a slight kind of worry comes in, like, I'm not sure what's happening right now.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: what should I do?
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I start trying to work subtly with a client, you know, I want them to, you know, maybe I maybe I'll lose that sense of patience, you know, because I want to do the process.
28:58
[SPEAKER_01]: All those things, and I think that's a very powerful way to start to be able to pay attention in the moment.
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you invite coaches, what would you invite coaches to do if in a session if they
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's that's a big one.
29:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So first to come back to you, of course, it is all also in the body.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's very much that physical awareness, the, of course, what strutzy all teaches, you know, you notice a disconnection of coldness, you know, with the somatic coaching.
29:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's, the ones that are the most important ones and the ones where you're not so aware of it.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: because those parts are really good at being calm and being patient, but there can be an energy there that makes you calm and patient.
29:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So they can mean these very subtle presence, they're almost like ghosts.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think you learn what to do in session, so I'll get back to that.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But how you can encounter this,
30:05
[SPEAKER_00]: is very much by before and after also.
30:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, coaches are told to reflect, but what I do, everyone has their own way of doing this, but I scribble before each client, who's present?
30:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's there?
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: As we say, in IFS, who's there?
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, before our chat, who's there?
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Excited parts, nervous parts, they're all there.
30:28
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all welcome, asked them to just give me space.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So, already that practice makes you more aware, and especially with different clients what comes up.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it tends to be with more experienced coaches that these self-like parts aren't always there.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They come in with certain clients.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So already seeing your nervous system, where is it?
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Your body, how is it?
30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there any muscle tension?
30:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is there?
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It scan your body, who's there?
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Emotions, everything.
31:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Then after the session, because we are our evaluator and our negativity bias changes things as we get further away from it, from a session, but as soon as you can afterwards reflect how this went, what was there, was there a part there that I, I'm curious about, why are you talking so much?
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did I interrupt them?
31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything that's present?
31:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So that teaches you to tap in, to go inside, and really check in your own system.
31:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, we start thinking about the client, but they said, no, your own system.
31:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you have an agreement to record, you can run it now through AI, which can be great.
31:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You can do your own supervision with having the right problems have AI, do your supervision of your sessions.
31:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So things you don't notice.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: again familiar with your system and trusting more and more that if these parts give you space but it always okay.
32:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So building the trust.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Now then during session it's the practice of you know I had a great mentored when I just finished my coach training and she's like so I noticed in you when you get quite excited or curious or you go forward.
32:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm just
32:27
[SPEAKER_00]: when you's coach or whatever you move forward.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So check in your body.
32:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of thing of checking that while you're doing, like you say, you notice, you lose something.
32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a shift, whether it is the words you use, the speeds of your speaking, the physical sensations.
32:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So in IFS we're told to do, is you track that, and you turn towards it.
32:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's easier said than done because that takes time.
32:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But the way I see this practice a little bit, as humans, we have this capacity to do things simultaneously.
33:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can be with a client and we can check our own system without losing connection.
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I compare it a little bit to that, you know, have simultaneous interpreters.
33:17
[SPEAKER_00]: People who can listen to Russian and can at the same time translated into English.
33:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I find that always baffling, but that is a training that takes the whole aisle and we're able to do that.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I find this is the same thing.
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You're translating, you're noticing what's going on in your own body, you're translating that and you're present with the client and still tracking their parts and their system.
33:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is very different in IFS and that takes practice in the beginning IFS code should
33:51
[SPEAKER_00]: cannot immediately do that.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's say what you earlier said, you feel that you're a bit impatient or you feel something you check.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It can sometimes be also that it's actually the client and you're just taking that on that energy from them.
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But your responsibility is to your own system first and you're like, okay, I notice.
34:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually a bit worried about this thing that's happening after this.
34:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I have this big meeting.
34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So you notice that and you're like doing what you do for your system.
34:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just noticing that and for instance, I may write down a word to just, you know, get me out of it or you take a breath, but not get rid of it, but to acknowledge it and to come back to it.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're like, yeah, that is, but I'm here now with the client.
34:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you give me space?
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll get back to it.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll watch the time.
34:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going.
34:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now if it has actually broken the connection with the client and you don't know that 100% sure, but you may feel something in them because you were just then and if you think it's in the interest of the client, it serves them because you've just broken something.
35:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We speak for that.
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So you then say, hey, I'm sorry.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I just noticed a part, if you use part language with the client, I just had a part coming in and I just asked it to give me some space.
35:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you notice that, I apologize and I'm here for you.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm back.
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And so often, clients will be like, thanks for saying that I noticed something.
35:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought it was me.
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it'll be like, oh, no, it's fine, but maybe they just say because there's a part that wants to be polite and compliant and they'll say it's fine, but actually another part may have noticed it.
35:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is different from most other modalities as far as I know that you speak for the part that just took you on.
35:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And in addition, I think this friend and this I think can be helpful for anyone, for instance, if you have something happening outside like loud noises or you have like a back ache, we know that if we have a lot of pain in the neck or put muscle that you may pull a face now and then.
36:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a chronic back thing for a while, so if that was really painful, I'd say to clients, if you see my face going a little bit like this, it's not you, I've just got a lot of pain.
36:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And it can be so helpful because otherwise you sit there worrying about it, but also they may make assumptions because we make assumptions about other people's facial expressions and movement and anything.
36:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So then there is this owning that I may pull weird face and
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You preempt any assumptions by parts of theirs that feel not seen or heard.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot to this.
36:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Can have an entire hour of conversation just about that and the tracking your own system asking it to give you space.
36:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And a more final important thing is once you notice a part coming in, is to get back to it.
37:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And to really,
37:06
[SPEAKER_00]: get to know it and build a relationship, a mutual relationship of trust and understanding and see what this part's strengths are and how it can maybe actually help you in a session instead of coming and taking over and taking the keys to the car.
37:24
[SPEAKER_01]: When I like about what you share is, for me, you're articulating two very important
37:31
[SPEAKER_01]: aspects of our growth, which is one is like developmental over time that, you know, you're checking in before a session and afterwards, you're noticing what parts may have been activated and then you can, you know, work with those through supervision through your own coach.
37:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And so over time, those parts show up less inside the coaching and self is there more often.
37:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're also practicing immediate freedom in the sense of inside of the session.
38:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You're noticing when you get caught and you're able to develop that dual awareness, where you're still with the client, but you're also
38:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Managing yourself.
38:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, managing might be the wrong, because we know we're not talking about a managing parts, but you're kind of regulating or being able to shift into a place where you're back in that kind of flow state with your client again.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's very powerful, because I think those are both those aspects of development are important for us all to work with.
38:44
[SPEAKER_01]: do think that there are subtle parts that are almost like IFS parts, you know, like there.
38:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a sense what I'm pointing to is the difference between I'm now a coach who's learned IFS and I'm in my coach doing IFS part.
39:06
[SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to I'm actually just in like real
39:12
[SPEAKER_01]: deep intimacy with the client in the moment.
39:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what's leading.
39:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, all the training is there in the background, but actually it's this attoonment that's really leading.
39:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And those real patients and connection and presence.
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think with any model that we learned that is new, we have first and with any, you know, often in the trainings in IFS and I'm sure other trainings who that too, it's compared to learning a new dance.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So you learn the steps and you're very rigid and awkward and you're standing on a lot of people's toes and you have to learn those steps to be able to do that dance.
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And then at some point, it flows and you just do that dance.
39:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And you see people like, you're like, wow, this person is so in the moment.
40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess martial arts is the same.
40:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to learn these modern-day cult katas or, you know, and that's repetition, repetition, repetition, and then in a, it all flows.
40:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is awkwardness in the beginning, which is why there's always so much
40:22
[SPEAKER_00]: and step on each other's toes and not on your client's toes.
40:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And to really get that supervision and that practice.
40:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And also to introduce things, little bits.
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: If you sit there with the protocol and this question you should ask, and you hear Dick do a demo and you're going to repeat those questions.
40:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Dick sports the creator of IFS.
40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Then it becomes, then it's a part doing it, that doing IFS part.
40:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, which for, you know, different clients is like, what is this?
40:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a wall in between you and the client.
40:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why I say, you're, the work with your own system is so important.
41:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think you should be working with clients, firefighters, managers, you know, they're, they're protective parts, or they're, vulnerable excels if you haven't done that work yourself.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then it definitely becomes very cognitive and it's just a, you know, an a little cognitive part, a protocol, you know, driven, which is not connection.
41:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same with clients as well that you can feel when they're kind of conceptually talking about a part or self as opposed to when they're like in self or with a part.
41:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: to practice takes on its own life rather than the feeling that sometimes you're working at doing parts work.
41:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a naturally unfolding and you have to do very little in a sense as the coach, even though it's really your access to presence, which is that container that's allowing them to fully be in their process as it unfolds.
42:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
42:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I love so much about IFS.
42:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to say much, you can't once there.
42:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is, once there is a true self-to-part and part-to-self connection that mutual connection is there.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It unfolds to use Stephen March's word, which I think
42:38
[SPEAKER_00]: describes it so well because you really see like a flower or you know it just happens because it's not us making it happen that that you know when there is soft part connection when there is relationship just like with humans on the outside when there is that connection on the inside things happen the update happens oh there is this this resource
43:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just this other part I've been fighting with and stuck with for 30 years trying to battle each other or keep each other away.
43:15
[SPEAKER_00]: There is this source and that happens.
43:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't have to do anything as a coach.
43:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not doing that because that would be one of your own burden parts trying to accomplish something inside the client system.
43:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It happens.
43:29
[SPEAKER_00]: What
43:31
[SPEAKER_00]: The coach's role there is the facilitation if a part comes in and this rubs that is supporting that and gently getting the space back in for the magic to unfold.
43:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're not doing IFS, the connection is happening.
43:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And we facilitate that moment of connection.
43:54
[SPEAKER_00]: or a little update, because it doesn't have to all, it could be tiny little shifts, but we facilitate those shifts and the update of outdated patterns and burdens that were, you know, the strategies were necessary at a time.
44:07
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not, they don't serve anymore.
44:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, that's a long question to, at the start, it is very normal for parts to come in.
44:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Having said that, we don't need 100% of self leadership for things for magic to happen.
44:28
[SPEAKER_00]: What we say in life as is a critical mass of self.
44:33
[SPEAKER_00]: and the critical mass on people don't like that word at all, but it is in it, you know, the the moment that the shift can happen.
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So if there's an opening there, so you may still have a bit of an efforting part there as a coach also, or the client may still have a bit of something there, a bit of a critical or there is, if there is enough some curiosity, some compassion, the part will receive that and shifts will happen.
45:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautiful.
45:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, I'd love to ask you about direct language, uh, directive language, because I think it fits well with what we're talking about in the sense of, um, could you say something about, um, how, um,
45:22
[SPEAKER_01]: When we are not in that critical mass, you know, using directive language, maybe can feel very different than when we are.
45:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you know, what would you say about using directive language in IFS and the role itself?
45:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a big one, of course, for people learning IFS.
45:48
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe from doing workshops or for the clinical trainings or wherever they get their training and it's or they see just demos online and they will see that language which in the clinical protocol can be very directive.
46:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That made me actually so curious.
46:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That was my biggest struggle, because I was a coach.
46:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I had the incredible fortune that at the time that I could do level one, level two, level three, they would take for each training about three non-therapists, licensed mental health providers.
46:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But as a coach, I was like, what?
46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not okay here.
46:37
[SPEAKER_01]: We get that too from our community like, hey, you can't do this.
46:41
[SPEAKER_01]: The coach is hard direct.
46:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:43
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not ICF.
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So that got my sort of lawyerly research parts like really fascinating.
46:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So why is there a search and a thing of no closed questions?
46:56
[SPEAKER_00]: What is behind that?
46:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is there no
47:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a chapter in my book as you will understand because it's really, really rich and interesting.
47:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
47:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But to get back to what we were just saying, if you have that presence and you're really self-led, because in self is something that's not really used a whole lot anymore because when you're fully in, in self, that's actually to me that's non-duality, you're just sort of a lake or you just be there.
47:32
[SPEAKER_00]: If I were now fully in self, 100% I couldn't talk to you because I'd just be off in
47:41
[SPEAKER_00]: yourself let the self is leading the parts.
47:45
[SPEAKER_00]: If that's the case, your cadence, your voice, the energy is such that if you use words that will paper just in a transcript would be like what?
47:57
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really directive.
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And you'll hear Dick and others do that, tell the part.
48:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just we'd tell the part to give you some space.
48:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like if you see that written out what?
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: The telling is the client, you tell all that.
48:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But the way it comes from someone who's truly self-led, it's, yeah, tell the part that, it will be an invitation, tell it that, it's like, why don't you tell it that?
48:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that takes a long time.
48:30
[SPEAKER_00]: for that to come out in a way that also the coach feels comfortable with it.
48:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and this may be controversial in the IFS unit.
48:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel that you can get the same without needing to use the directive language.
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So, as a therapist, you can do that.
48:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a different role as a coach.
49:01
[SPEAKER_00]: There are ways to do that in an invitational way that is more explicitly invitational and coach-consistent.
49:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can get to the exact same outcome.
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the additional benefit that I noticed for my own system, because I was trained in the clinical way.
49:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So I used to say, tell the part, ask the part, but maybe with a little bit more coaching isn't surrounded.
49:32
[SPEAKER_00]: language, that it actually so much more, I don't know, it keeps you more in self-energy yourself as the practitioner, because there is some kind of biofeedback with the words you use and what your own, how your own, I don't know, your brain, your system perceives that.
49:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know that if we know it from body posture, but if you collapse yourself like this, you start feeling a certain way.
50:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you smile, you start feeling better.
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have a sense, and I've looked at, there isn't a whole lot of research on this.
50:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be great for someone to do a PhD on this, but the language you use the words, because of course there's tone, there's cadence as well.
50:23
[SPEAKER_00]: that also affect you.
50:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But even the words we use affect our own parts.
50:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say you have quite a, well, as a coach, you always are at risk of having an expert part.
50:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I know better than the client, I know this model.
50:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what should happen in their system.
50:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you use language
50:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you use those words and you repeat them, you actually will get those parts coming up.
50:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the client, of course, things happen too.
50:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But that there is more research on the effect and for instance Richard Bajatzis with his positive emotional tractor.
51:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way you are, but also the words you use, those all have influence on how that lands in the client's system.
51:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also affects you.
51:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So I actually think that coaching has things to offer two clinical IFS.
51:24
[SPEAKER_00]: and how to phrase things because coaching psychology is so advanced and sophisticated on the interaction between keeping it infotational, the coach not being the expert.
51:39
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much richness there.
51:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
51:42
[SPEAKER_00]: The, what does that mean for the coach was learning like you say, you're amazing training, simply of self is that what it is?
51:52
[SPEAKER_00]: With all these different practitioners using parts work, and then when you get to IFS and people look also online at demos, they start using that language.
52:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying it's wrong to use that, but for beginners,
52:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I would really encourage people to find a way to do this in a coach-consistent way.
52:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Not, I don't care about the ICF competes.
52:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I care about them because I think they're amazing, and there's a lot of research behind them.
52:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, not for that reason specifically, not for like passing an assessment, but really for honing your own skills of that true curiosity.
52:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you repeat that language,
52:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Where's your curiosity of just coming up with your own question?
52:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That will have the same effect.
52:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think it's a big deal because when you're new, like you say, you've got your IFS parts coming up.
52:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing the protocol.
52:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing this.
52:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing parts work.
52:55
[SPEAKER_00]: If on top of that, you start using language that is quite directive.
53:02
[SPEAKER_01]: then it becomes very, very jarring, yeah, yeah, like Mike, because this is great.
53:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel that combination between being in self and then, you know, so having an invitational request like how would it be to let this part know, you know, they're just kind of little phrases,
53:30
[SPEAKER_01]: with that self-ledness that you're talking about, where it's like, you're making an invitation, but it's like, you know, you could try, or how it, there's no formula for exactly, it's more in the energy of how it's said, but those, yeah, I find that to be, because I notice when someone works with me in that way and they use those phrases, it makes a difference because,
53:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I've got a choice, you know, if I'm feeling like I'm being told to do something, you've got to get that right, you see, if you're being told to do something, and Dick's is very masterful, so for him, he has a lot of authority, so people trust him, so it really works, but if, you know, if it's not quite right, if someone tells you what to do,
54:15
[SPEAKER_01]: it can bring up a part that's like, well, I'm not doing that, you know.
54:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So you either get rebel parts or bellies parts, because your autonomy is being taken away, so you go together with bellies part coming up in some people, but you also get compliant parts, piece of parts, and that is the big risk with IFS that's
54:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there has to be real permission of the system to do this, because it's deep, it's unusual, we didn't grow up with multiplicity.
54:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So also, when you contract to do IFS, it's really important to not force parts language on people.
54:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And to just flow out of it, if you notice that that isn't landing and to just switch back to a coaching question,
55:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, when someone is fully blended with the part you do that anyway, you just say you, which is a whole separate issue of blended parts dialogue, but the interesting thing is also for your own system.
55:19
[SPEAKER_00]: When you say, I'm wondering, it gives you a space, I'm wondering, what would that part need to give you some space?
55:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't even have to say, I wonder if it could give you some space, but what it needs to give you space.
55:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're having the client, I mean, check with that part what it needs.
55:42
[SPEAKER_00]: instead of also ordering that part to step aside because that one part may not want to step aside.
55:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot around this, but if you are starting out and you're saying, yeah, but George does that, you know, I get people, I get quite resistant sometimes with this.
56:01
[SPEAKER_00]: People got irritated like who are you to tell me that, you know, but not saying there's
56:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you're new to a model, I think it takes three to five years before you fully comfortable with IFS, for our systems who were raised in this monomind, northern global, the way, let's say, just capitalism, as the whole structure
56:39
[SPEAKER_00]: of how we were raised, the whole Cartesian mindset, everything, there's so much there, it's a big shift for our own systems to really feel and for our skeptical parts to be this is okay for our, you know, there are years I would be in the middle of a session and I wonder if if you have, if you ever have this is such an fascinating, well, I find, I got this part coming up like what are you doing, this is all fake, this is so weird.
57:09
[SPEAKER_00]: What is this?
57:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is a real, like, you know, the surreal, the parts of this is known.
57:14
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not really happening.
57:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't come up anymore, but it took years before that one was finally fully trusting.
57:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Fully trusting that this is really how we are.
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something you're doing, you know, making it up.
57:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a circus trick.
57:32
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what we are as humans and how we heal and how we thrive and transform.
57:39
[SPEAKER_00]: and it takes a while.
57:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, beautiful.
57:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that insight of multiplicity of selves combined from me with
57:54
[SPEAKER_01]: in this sense that we're always coerving different selves or even different contexts.
58:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And that there's not this kind of mono self that's necessarily consistent everywhere.
58:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, I found very liberating.
58:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And because it,
58:15
[SPEAKER_01]: frees me up.
58:15
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a playfulness that can come in.
58:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I can work more freely with the patterning and energy of the moment.
58:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to bring you, like, just one last topic and it's, you know, probably it's like
58:37
[SPEAKER_01]: A common, I mean, the most common question we get when it comes to IFS and coaching and parts work is, can coaches work with excels, you know, what they call excels and what's, I know you've been training coaches around that, what's your take on that?
58:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, again, one of those really big ones and also, of course, firefighters, there can be very extreme firefighters, because there is this, oh, exhale, scary, firefighters are the one that can do a lot of harm to the person or to others, you know, rage, substance abuse, all that, so,
59:25
[SPEAKER_00]: When we speak about the scope of practice, that sometimes gets forgotten, but if firefighters are quite strong and that means there is a lot of pain underneath otherwise we need to be so strong.
59:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So, coaches work with strong emotions.
59:45
[SPEAKER_00]: we do.
59:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So, saying like not working with X-Saus would be like chopping off an arm of something of, you know, it's there.
59:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So people come sometimes into a session blended with an X-Saus.
1:00:00
[SPEAKER_00]: If something has just happened at work or in their family, in their life, there can be lots of tears in coaching sessions now.
1:00:12
[SPEAKER_00]: when people say on the clinical side and when we also and the institutes is like coaches be very careful with excels.
1:00:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It means that if you really use the model to go to them as a target, target them, you know, we often say that we're working with the target part that is like the
1:00:34
[SPEAKER_00]: then go deeper, you go in a level more of contracting.
1:00:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just the topic contracting, it's the specific part you contract for, to get curious about and to learn about and to support.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
1:00:52
[SPEAKER_00]: for clinical folk it is really important to because the person is not thriving is not often even functioning or you know it's a danger to themselves.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So the priorities are burning the Excel.
1:01:06
[SPEAKER_00]: In coaching we work with a very different client base and we work with a very different scope and different agreements.
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Excel's come up there there so I think it's very important for
1:01:20
[SPEAKER_00]: how to work with ex house, but not to unless, you know, they have a lot of training and this is for all scope of practice and referring what is your training, what is your own skills and what have you worked with your own system.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess one, if we go into more specificity, I do not think anyone, whether they are a therapist or coach should work with IFS and ex house
1:01:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you have not had that experience, you shouldn't work with a client with that.
1:01:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one thing, I think that's pretty basic.
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems basic, you'll be surprised how often that that role is not adhered to.
1:02:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's really important.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And we did the institute with the institute, you know that I've designed with Anatansi, the after the pilot re-designed the whole training
1:02:21
[SPEAKER_00]: be even more coaching consistent and there are Excel steps in what we're teaching with lots of conditions if you know you have, I mean trauma informed is like the final stage but if you have the sufficient, if you have done your own work you have sufficient trauma training to be
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_00]: not just trauma and where, which I think is the first one, trauma informed is like very advanced, but trauma sensitive, trauma react.
1:02:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know and someone gets flooded and you refer to that also with David Kitchings in his conversation.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've gone through that to you know listeners have probably heard this many times, but if you have all that training and
1:03:15
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have contracted that also, so there has to be that full system wide permission that we get in IFS, that you really check whether all parts are okay with this, and you can check up with the self energy, how do you feel towards this part?
1:03:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Also need to know the difference between a protector and the next saw, which isn't always very clear, because they can be really entangled with each other, a protector can be so around the ex saw and then it turns, you know, you don't sometimes don't know the difference.
1:03:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, after a lot of training, so I don't think if you've done.
1:03:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, our training is seven training days with in between sessions of practice.
1:03:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And that you then just go out and work with people's excels.
1:03:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, bud, if you have been doing this for years and years and you're trauma aware and you are with a client where there is an agreement, you can do it still in a coaching consistent way.
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_00]: While invitations,
1:04:15
[SPEAKER_00]: and so on is connected.
1:04:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It happens.
1:04:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, I mean, who are we to stop that?
1:04:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's, that's, that's a really good point because
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_01]: my experiences being ex house show up and it would be more harmful in that moment to go, oh okay stop you know like that's this is not okay anymore you know that's more traumatizing to an ex-child and that's ex-yling the ex-child from the coaching conversation and you know speaking from my personal experience of being
1:04:55
[SPEAKER_01]: with a very skillful coach, I must admit, very experienced, but, you know, and so the topics we were working on were leadership topics, and there was often an exile in there, and I found it to be,
1:05:14
[SPEAKER_01]: just so beautiful to be able to have those ex-hiles to be met from self and incredibly healing.
1:05:27
[SPEAKER_01]: um, not a scary experience.
1:05:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that, uh, that's, that's not intense for some people.
1:05:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, of course, like there are, you know, there are a very wide range of different parts, but I think sometimes coaches can be overly scared.
1:05:47
[SPEAKER_01]: about this, about exiles and that it's going to be very intense and so all the things you said I'm just fully behind you know like you have to be doing your own inner work working with your own exiles you know it's like getting the right training, knowing your capabilities all that
1:06:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that the thing I found was like I wasn't with the coach I worked with we weren't
1:06:19
[SPEAKER_01]: we weren't using, like, excels would often unburden by themselves, you know?
1:06:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Unteniously, spontaneously.
1:06:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was not only not scary, but it was actually an incredibly, incredibly meaningful experience to feel what you shared at the beginning that these parts, these excels that, you know, would often like be,
1:06:44
[SPEAKER_01]: either looking very young or like have their kind of lifeless feeling, you know, and then they come alive and they feel seen and then what you said earlier is like often they would transform into almost like, um,
1:06:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to put it like a transpersonal kind of form, you know, I had parts that became like what he called and Pokemon character like, you know, and so that's a force of that the brain produces for to represent the energy.
1:07:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It is really so, so beautiful.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, my sense is like of course there are all different types of coaches with different scopes.
1:07:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And
1:07:27
[SPEAKER_01]: but that there are more coaches who are interested, especially in our times, where we're going through a huge disruption and clients are coming in, dysregulated, with exiles activated, that it can really serve clients, that there are exiles we can meet without targeting them.
1:07:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But that are related to leadership topics.
1:07:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and they're different to Greece.
1:07:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So all parts will come in.
1:07:56
[SPEAKER_00]: If a client feels that they can bring that into the space and then there's a different degrees of engaging them of your own skills and your own parts comfort with that because like you say some people, some people have parts that are scared of themselves.
1:08:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So that means they have to work with that fear in themselves.
1:08:16
[SPEAKER_00]: They have parts that are scared of their own examples.
1:08:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So the people who have fear of coaches working with exos, there's something in their own system that
1:08:31
[SPEAKER_00]: things that exons are really scary things.
1:08:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're not very vulnerable, little versions of us who are still stuck in time, that's all.
1:08:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, if there is like sheer is trauma around that, there needs to be someone who can hold that and that often is
1:08:53
[SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't make them, and that is because of the reaction to the pain of the exhale by the protectors.
1:09:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the protectors there that actually are the ones that cause the backlash because they are so scared of that exhale.
1:09:07
[SPEAKER_00]: The protectors are scared of it, but the exercise
1:09:19
[SPEAKER_00]: state of freeze and can then unfold and quite easily.
1:09:24
[SPEAKER_00]: In systems where there is more access to self-energy, because it's not that some people have more self-energy than others, it's just the access to it, rather it's more space, which is using decays and coaching clients.
1:09:36
[SPEAKER_00]: There can be very hidden.
1:09:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, very, of course, hidden trauma, protects a trauma, but this is since we work with their tends to be that excess.
1:09:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be super easy.
1:09:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had it like just that in one session of fool, you know, working with art that happens often.
1:09:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I even have it in the first session with the client that there's a fool on burning.
1:09:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:09:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So when it's never heard of IFS, never heard of parts, I've no idea, and there you go.
1:10:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I have also worked with clients and everyone will have where they function very high functioning in the sense of, you know, high functioning, they have like big jobs, make lots of money and see them on the outside to have everything together, those are incredibly strong managers that keep everything together at some times and hide enormous trauma.
1:10:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that's why it's so important to be so informed.
1:10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you've said, you know, many times yourself and others and they've catchings, I think
1:10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think he does a really good job in, you know, both a few of going into this.
1:10:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But yes, I think we have a duty to teach coaches how to work with excels in the world we live in and the times we live in.
1:10:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, I mean, it would almost be criminal not to because that's where the gold is.
1:11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: This feels like a beautiful place to end our conversation for now, um, yeah, just really enjoyed the
1:11:15
[SPEAKER_01]: this era of maybe it's known for itself or what but just there's been a really sweet, sweet feeling through our conversation so if you just want to appreciate you for the depth of your your commitment to this this practice and your deep sincerity and passion for it as well and translating it into coaching it's a real gift.
1:11:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you to all.
1:11:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I want to thank you because since, well, the years that I first discovered I've as I go inside with me starring Tennis and to coaches rising, I think because Dick was like the first time he was on with you or something like that.
1:11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And every time I would go to the gym or I was in the car, I always listened to the episodes.
1:11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And I could hear your passion for I've as and how you were asking questions.
1:12:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how we first
1:12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I owe so much to your conversations for my own work and understanding of how to make coaching work, I have as work in coaching, so lots of gratitude for my parts, for what you do.
1:12:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautiful, um, where can we, you know, people listening if they want to contact you or learn more about you or, uh, you have a book, you're writing as well, where can we find that more about it?
1:12:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, call them writing my book, I have a sing coaching or, you know, about I have a sing coaching, um, that will still be a little bit, um, yes, my website is just
1:12:50
[SPEAKER_00]: sort of DIY job, did it myself and, you know, I do practice labs, but in general, and a newsletter people can sign up for.
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love, I'm going to do more writing, just really love it, but my biggest passion is just being with clients and with groups and, you know, the combination of it all.
1:13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the easiest.
1:13:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm on LinkedIn if people want to link
1:13:20
[SPEAKER_00]: beautiful.
1:13:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Sophia.
1:13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Joe.
1:13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Here we are.
1:13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: We're at the end of the podcast.
1:13:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Just do a heads up again.
1:13:28
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising.com.
1:13:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Put your name in the sign up box there.
1:13:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.