Latest / Making Medicine / China’s Biotech Surge, GLP-1 Prices, & MFN Deadline | Press Pass with Max Bayer

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China’s Biotech Surge, GLP-1 Prices, & MFN Deadline | Press Pass with Max Bayer · Making Medicine

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Making Medicine podcast,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: where science, policy and innovation meet. As always, I'm your host,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: John Stanford. This week, we're back with the top stories
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: from this busy week and a new edition of our
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: press Pass segment where we'll be talking with Max Behar,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: one of the top pharma policy reporters at Endpoint News
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and frankly one of the top pharma policy reporters anywhere.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: With that, let's get into the show. Before we get
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: into this week's press Pass episode with Max Behar from
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Endpoint News, we'll share a few headlines. Most notably was
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the White House event on autism featuring HHS Secretary RFK Junior,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: that mainly pointed to the use of thailand all by
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: pregnant women, as well as vaccines, as a leading cause
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: of autism. The administration also announced that the FDA will
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: push tailanof for labeling changes as well as the possible
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: approval of an existing cancer drug to treat cerebral folate
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: deficiency or CFD, a neurological condition associated with autism. Notably,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: neither of those changes, the tile in all labeling or
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: the approval of the cancer medicine will have gone through
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: the traditional regulatory pathways. Effectively, All major medical societies, including
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, the
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: American Academy of Family Physicians, the American College of Obstetrics
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: and Gynecology, as well as a number of patient groups,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: immediately responded to bunking some of the claims of the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: White House's announcement. Also in the news via President Trump
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: is the idea of changing SEC filings from quarterly to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: twice a year. Proponents for the change suggest that the
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: decreased regulatory burden of having to report will allow companies
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: to focus on R and D, put resources to better use,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: and not chase short term growth. Specifically for biotech companies,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: this may slightly change some of the calculations around IPOs.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Opponents to the change suggest it removes transparency and removes
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: opportunities to understand what's going on at the companies. Either way,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: for a challenging IPO environment for biotech, this is an
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: idea that we'll have a lot more conversation. Max, Welcome
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: to the show.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. John, great to
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: be here.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I think you know we catch up pretty regularly,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: but it was great to see you around at BIO
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: other conferences. It's hard to turn your head into space
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: and not see you doing some of the great reporting.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: And there's been a lot to report on, as we'll
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: get into. So my first question, I think, is what
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: is the top thing that's standing out to you over
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the last couple months or where we're going.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: It is difficult to create a hierarchy, honestly, even in
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: the last two weeks, three weeks, you know, I think,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: like in short, it would be sort of the totality
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: of actions against drug makers from the administration and really
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: obviously sort of from the White House, not Congress or
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: else where. You know, I think MFN sort of a
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: looming deadline for more action there sort of top of mind.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: How that relates to tariffs those seem to be sort
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: of running in parallel. And then you know, as we've discussed,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I think potential executive action on the out licensing business
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: from China for new innovative medicines. That's you know, maybe
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: number three on my list, and that's on top of
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: things involving vaccines and other actions happening at some of
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: the health agencies. So it's been busy.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: You have been busy, and for those of you who
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: don't tune into Max's articles, you are absolutely missing out.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So make sure that you do because he usually has
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: quite a lot of scoops. And like you said, I
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: like your phrasing there. It's the totality of the circumstances. Now,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time covering both the biotechs
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: and the manufacturers, a lot of like you said, the
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: totality of those threets, the uncertainty, the just sheer overwhelming
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: amount of things that the manufacturers have had to navigate.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: How do you see that playing into sort of our
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: lane of the investment space and biotechs and entrepreneurs. Do
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: you feel uncertainty there? Do you feel uncomfortable or do
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: they kind of push those off and say those are
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: manufacturing issues?
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: It's product specific, is the short answer.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I think like and we can sort of touch on
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: this a little bit, like vaccines as a product right now.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I think the Washington Posts had a good story about
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: the impact for maybe some of the smaller startups that's
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: been more difficult to invest in in the new administration.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: But then you also have sort of maybe smaller biotechs
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: working in a rare disease space, like the Stealth biotherapeutics
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: of the world, or the replemunes that have faced, you know,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: surprises from the FDA recognizing of course that Stealth just
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: recently got approved, you know, but replemun is still in
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: a stand still situation. And I think those things make
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: investing in biotech a little harder, you know. I think
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: if you ask regular regular or investors, rather if you
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: ask them what they need, more than anything, it's regulatory continuity. Uh.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: And I feel like in the first few months of
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: the administration they felt like that's been lacking in a way,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: especially for companies working on rare disease drugs, because sometimes
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: the admin will say one thing, the regulatory actions will
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: be another. Still, I think people would say that, like,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: there's still cool new medicines that are being developed. You
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: still have the GLP one space, you have Mitserah's multi
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: billion dollar acquisition by Pfizer yesterday. So certainly there are
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: opportunities for investors from both like uh uh, you know,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: a standpoint of making money on their return and also
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: the opportunity for new medicines to be approved.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: You mentioned in your totality, LISSI. I keep coming back
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: to that, one of them being MFN. We've had an
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: episode about MFN. I think the not only is the
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: threat reel, but we're starting to see behavioral shifts from
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: some of these companies. You know, BMS was out with
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: the announcement about charging the same price in the UK.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Do you think? You know,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: we if the administration's theory is we're going to pay
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: less here by making others pay their fair share, how
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: are you seeing in real time companies reacting to that.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: They're taking the threat very seriously, first and foremost, you know,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I think that in a general discussion of well, you
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: have two options. You can lower your prices here, you
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: can raise them somewhere else. I don't think it's that
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: surprising that the first, the first tacked by companies is
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: let's actually do that other route.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: The harder part still is like, what are prices going
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: to come? I mean right, because they still are going
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: to have to come down in the US in some
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: form for some numbnumber of drugs, for some corner of
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: a company's portfolio. The President has made it clear he'd
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: like to see drug prices come down. What that looks like,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I think is still up in the air, and we'll
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: get to that in a second. But I think with
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: respect to Europe in the UK, that's almost in a
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: way like easy pickings, you know, like if you look
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: at the UK, for example, when I was talking to
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: a colleague about this, there's been friction there for years,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: and I would point people to sort of discussions between
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Astrozeneca and Nice in the UK on an Air two,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: which is their breast cancer treatment. They have been at
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: odds over the price of that drug, and I would
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: just sort of tell people that that to me has
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: sort of been a bit of a canary of what
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: we're now seeing, which is when faced with you know,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: whether you call it pressure, whether you call it just
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: sort of like a wink wink, nod nod, you should
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: invest more money in the US with all of these
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: other sort of overhangs, like companies are choosing to move
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: money into the US, that means it has to come,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: you know, from from potential other investments that they were
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: set to have in the Europe, or in Europe or
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: the UK or elsewhere. And there are other regulatory elements
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: to the UK that I think the pharmaceutical industry has
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: taken issue with specifically on pricing that pre date MFN
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: and so it's in a way like an easy out.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: You know, they can use the leverage that the Trump
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: administration is putting on them and flip it to the
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: UK and say, look like, our hands are a little
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: bit tied here. You've been pissing us off for a
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: couple of years. We're not going to play ball, right,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: They have sort of the leverage the US is putting
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: on pharma manufacturers they can put onto the UK. And
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: it makes a little bit of sense. It's sort of
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: how I would put it.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're only a couple days away from the
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: end of the month where in theory action supposed to
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: have been taken. You know, what do you think that
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: looks like? And what do you think success is for
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: the White House here? What do you think has to
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: happen that this announcement you know, is important to them
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: and shows progress to the goals that they've been making.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: And you know, are we going to point to BMS
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: in the UK activity as saying this is exactly what
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: President Trump wanted?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Well, it's interest. I mean, I've gone back and forth
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: with the colleague of mine, Drew my our executive editor,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: who's done a lot of sort of good reporting on
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: the sidelines on MFN, and I've tried to lend a
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: hand when possible. But you know, I think success for
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the administration will be I'll be actually sort of specific here.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I think if they can get a lower GLP one price,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: then we've seen Lily or Novo advertise on their own,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: that would be probably pretty big. Why is that Because
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: that is probably the number one medicine right now that
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: that patients would be willing to pay out of pocket for,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: and because there have been sort of insurance gaps In
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: a way, I think insurance has been picking up a
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: little bit if I'm just sort of seeing anecdotes and
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: compiling them. The problem though, is like outside of that
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: drug class, I'm trying to think of drugs that like
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: if there are more than seven hundred, eight hundred dollars
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: out of pocket that patients would even use. So the
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: administration I think just has to it has to is
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: probably considering, it has to be cognizant of we don't
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: want to have a DTC platform out where we're offering
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: drugs from a number of different parmas at these reduced prices,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: but that they're at still such a high out of
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: pocket level that companies that patients aren't paying for them,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: and then there's inevitably a headline a couple months from
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: now that's like, you know, no traffic to trump orex, Right,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I'm just sort of making that up based off of yeah,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: sort of words reporting about potential branding, but like that
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: that is would be a concern, like if no one
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: is using this thing, then it's going to backfire and
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: it's not going to sort of have the health policy
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: momentum that I think the administration wants it to. So,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: you know, I think like at some point you have
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: to imagine that insurers are going to be included in
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: this conversation that they would need to be if uptake
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: in actual access to reduce prices are going to be
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: used and and and and tapped into by by patients
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: and employers. You know, I think that's sort of the
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: main thing. And so if they if they don't bring
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: insurers in, then I think it's really going to have
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: to center on some some reduction in price of a
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: major product that patients will pay out of pocket for.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: The only one I can really think of right now
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: is the g LP ones.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's as
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: sound of a case as any. I'm still letting the
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: wheels turn on Trump rx uh and seeing that somewhere.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think you've laid out the best case
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: of what that success looks like. And like you said,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: GLP ones do seem to be this unique class where patients,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: real life, out of pocket all seemed to mix. I
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: think one of the troubles for the Democrats with the
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: IRA and besides a number of bad policies being in
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: it was also just not feeling, wait, something changed here
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: that is benefiting me. And because of sort of the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: architecture of our healthcare system, very few of these levers
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: actually really make a meaningful difference, and in exchange we
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: sacrifice some innovation, some biopharmaceutical leadership, which is where I
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: want to go next. Let's go all the way around
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the world to you have been one of the closest
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: to the ground out of all the reporters I talked to,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: absolutely one of the closest on developments out of China
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: and how it's becoming a not a bright line, but
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: definitely different perspectives from the early stage, from investors, from
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: the large pharma I'm curious, what are some of the
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: takeaways you're reporting has led you to see on China.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Are they catching up, surpassing, moving faster than we all expected,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and we'll China continue to play in your view, just
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: a dominant role in the next couple of years through
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of questions at.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: You, oh yeah, very very dominant, only getting more dominant
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: in in select therapeutic areas. But I think like at
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: the from my vantage point, at which they are investing
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: in Cambridge like ecosystems across I think that's what that's
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: people who actually have gone to China, whether that's investors
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: or manufacturers, it almost feels like just in the last year,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: and then if you're just looking at the last two years,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: like what the conversation has been like, it's kind of
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: astounding the pace at which, again they're creating these Cambridge
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: like ecosystems, where there's a university, there's R and D hubs,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: there's biotechs that are situated in these like whether that's
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Cambridge or maybe even a better example would be like
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: the Texas Medical Center, like with with m D Anderson, like,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: I think people really need to grasp like multiplying the
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Texas Medical Center by like a dozen across the United
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: States and like and so if you do that math,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I think you have a lot of scientists who are
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: sort of recognizing this as a massive new ecosystem, a
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: new economy for them that just in the last three,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: four or five years has ballooned. And recognize too that
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: the reason why the out licensing business became so hot
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: is because domestic venture capital wasn't really flowing in. So
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: the main exit for Chinese based investors or Asia based
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: investors and the companies was let's find Western partners for
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: these and that business model has just been scorching hot.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: So I think that's going to continue. I think you
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: have some of the largest manufacturers that have now sourced
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of medicine from there at a much cheaper
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: valuation than they maybe would have had from a US counterpart.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: That's just like I think we can sort of what
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: the solution is to fix that is. I think now
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: with the administration is maybe wising up to a little bit,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: whether that's actual restrictions on licensing deals or whether that's
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: creating a US ecosystem that's more competitive, so that we
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: ourselves have twelve Texas medical centers around the country. Like
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I think that's what's up for debate. But what is
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: like what if the US started to restrict licensing deals,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: then it would just be Europe's gain, you know, and
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I think we would see shortly thereafter that the US
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: biotech ecosystem and venture capital flowing into Europe would increase significantly.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: But it is it is like it's hard to track
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: how quickly this story has changed. Because at one point
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: it was like wow, this is like going pretty fast,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: and the next thing it's like wow, now like we're
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: starting to see all of these deals have some sort
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: of China element to them, and then it's like, wow,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: actually China is now almost the leader. I think that
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: there was some data point recently that was like they've
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: actually sort of led on new molecules or something, or
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: like like trial start paces out of China are incredible,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Like across the board, when you're looking at statistics that
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: measure new innovative R and D, how fast those that
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: science is going in being tested into patients. It's been rapid.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And you know, drug makers, large drug makers are paying
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: attention and paying good money for some of those drugs.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems like you know, we you and
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: I had a chance to briefly talk about the New
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: York Times article that came out and this idea of
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: an EO that could be out there and all these
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: China actions. I guess I'm not as much of a
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: China expert as you are. It just sort of seems
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: like the surge we're seeing in China. You know, it's
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: like a kin to AI and crypto. It wasn't there
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and then boom it is.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: It is here. It is almost unstoppable. And so some
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: of the ideas being kicked around just seem like, hey,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: we're just going to throw up a wall. But I
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: take your point well of like, okay, well we can.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Throw up a wall.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: But Europe, who's been itching to get back in this
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: game for the last four decades, like this is just
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: kind of handing it on a silver platter. And then
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: we had Kendall from mass Bio on a couple of
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: weeks ago, and she talked to it. She did a
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: good job putting it all together. Of the pieces of
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: a dampening us ecosystem, MFN tariffs and ihsbi R, all
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: of it, all of it just adding up to we're
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: not given a great green light for biotech here, and
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: then we've got this dominant force and both of them
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: are just gonna stretch our leadership so thin that possibly
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: at some point it breaks. What do you make of that?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I think she's spot on, and she's
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: a great person to address this because she represents the
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: mass bio ecosystem. I mean her, she's in a leadership
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: role of one of those you know, like biotech hubs
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: that we have here, and I think the headlines out
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: of Boston and Massachusetts in the last year haven't been great.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I think it was the first time in years that
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: there's actually been a net loss at biotech jobs. And
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: you know, I've been reporting on layoffs in the biotech
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: ecosystem and that sort of checks out from our vantage point.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's the sometime. I mean, keep in mind
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: what else wasn't mentioned there. Granted this hasn't been reflected
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: in like an actual EO, but I think Howard Lutnik
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: reference recently wanting to tap in to university patents, you know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: before they even come to bear. And I think, like
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: you know, just the threat of marching rights from the
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Biden administration had people like pulling their hair out. So
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: if we were to package this, it would be that
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: sort of in the snap of a finger. Through budget
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: cuts and the current ecosystem for new science, new investment
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: in science, motivating new scientists, you know, H one B
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: visas which are critical to labs in some way like
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: and I'm not I don't want to weigh in on
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: sort of whether one political action is right or wrong
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: so much as to say that I think when you
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: package it all together, it definitely pours cold water on
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: the ecosystem. A economic adversary is doing the exact opposite.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And what have we learned from China over a number
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: of years now, when they decide to pour resources into
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: something and make something a national priority, it is a
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: light switch. They are going to rapidly grow it. If
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: you look at infrastructure or clean energy, it has been
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: the same over the years. So the idea that the
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: only option now and I don't think people who have
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: sort of advocated for restrictions on China deals would say
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: that that's the only thing we have to do to
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: give them credit, to be clear, but I think that
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: we are not We as a nation are not an
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: EO away from bolstering the US biotech ecosystem if we
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: put limits on China, and then you would have people
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: who also if they were just speaking ethically, not even economically,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: would tell you, who are we to restrict US patients
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: access to potentially better drugs regardless of where they come from.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a that's for many people, that's sort
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of their core argument. Even even if you set before
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: them like a strong economic reason to restrict it, you know,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: like I think people would still say, you know, it
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: would sort of give them caution and pause.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I think that last point is such a great one
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: because bringing it back to the patients, when you're talking
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: about investment in economics, you know, at the end of
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the day, we have gotten so used to the innovation
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: coming out of our labs, our companies. The idea that
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: there's innovation that we couldn't have access to is actually
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: so foreign. And do we have affordability and access issues
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: in the US. Absolutely, But we don't know what it's
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: like to know, oh, just over there is the thing
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: that could make you better or make a loved one better.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: And I was on this panel with some of the universities,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: and one of them throughout this line that's just stuck
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: in my head. You know what happens when she picked
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: diabetes and just sort of said, well, what happens when
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: China's advancements have the cure for diabetes something that we
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: need desperately in this country, or the cure for some
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: cancer that we need desperately in this country, and they
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: begin to play a geopolitical game of access and pricing,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and we almost can't think about that as Americans. We've
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: never had that experience that Japan has had, that the
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: EU has, that the UK has of we know there's
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: good stuff out there, but unfortunately that door is not
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: open to us because we don't really want to value it.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: So I'm glad you called that one out because at
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, if China is inventing great
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: new medicines, we should make sure those great new medicines
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: do find their way to American patients.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Right exactly. And it just again I think thinking it
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: also is just how are we thinking long term about
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: this in a moment where I think the industry, that
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: the national US based industry is in a bit of
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: like a shell shock state about how what to even
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: advocate or lobbyfore with a number of different policies or
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: executive actions that seem to damp in support or damp
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: in potential pricing. It's definitely I think thrown people in
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: a little bit of like a state of disarray of
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: just like what is what is? You know you asked
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: at the very top of this call. What to me was?
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: What to me was like the story of the day.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I would hate to be the person who's like having
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: to answer that question to a boardroom, you know, of like.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: You know, it's like it's easy for you and I
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: to banter and be like, oh, what are you paying
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: attention to? It's like, well a lot, you know, But
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: you're the CEO of like a major company or even
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: a top biotech and you have to sort of think
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: about where you're putting resources in your advocacy work, or
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: your lobbying, or your R and D your business development,
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: and those are harder questions to answer, and I think
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: for US based companies those have gotten harder in the
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: last seven eight months.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's a great place to leave it. I
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: will shamelessly plug they are happening more in the boardrooms,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: which means we are now seeing them more in their
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: filings and incubate tracks, regulatory filings and SEC filings through
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: our new MFN tracker, are Rare Disease Tracker and our
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: IRA Investment Tracker. And I mean, the uptick is just
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: over over and over again.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Companies say, I mean the idea that they're writing MFN
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: into their risks corridor in their SEC filings, and that's
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: it's crazy. But we are so grateful. You've been generous
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: with your time. You've been even more generous with your reporting,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: and I can't stress enough how critical your work is
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: to informing us of keeping up what's going on out there.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: And so hopefully we'll have you back on. We'll find
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: out if your prediction about the Trump announcement next week
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: is right, and we just look forward to having you
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: back on for another press pass.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Well, John, this was a pleasure. Thank you for having
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: me on. If anyone hears anything that I should know about,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: you know, you know where to find me.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll put his signal, his telegram, his DMS, all
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: of it. We'll put him in the link to the episode.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Because if you have a tip. There's no better place
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: to take it than Max, So there you go. Thanks
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: as always, thanks for the great work of end Points
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you soon.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: That's all for this week's episode of the Making Medicine Podcast.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Have a thought or a question about today's topics, drop
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: a comment and we'll feature it in next week's Episodell.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you to Max Bayer and Endpoint News for joining
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: this week's segment of Press Pass, and don't forget to
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: subscribe to YouTube and follow us on LinkedIn, x and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Instagram using the links in the description. You can also
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: find Max's information if you've got a hot tip. Thanks
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: for listening, and as always, keep innovating.