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Episode #74: FDA Power Grab on Natural Medicine Part TWO · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I got stones thrown at me and it it wasn't a warm fuzzy welcome.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was pretty ostracized by my community.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as a matter of fact, one quick story.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was working in a urgent care clinic and I gave a kid, the mother wanted it, Arnica.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't force homeopathy on anyone.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: I offer solutions for a sprained ankle.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Arnica's a great remedy for trauma.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I got reported by that pediatrician.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my boss came to me at the time and said, Michelle, you cannot use homeopathy in this clinic.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, it's over the counter.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's not dangerous.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, gee, his ankle's better.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I follow up on my patients.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: What an idea.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I call people back to see how they're doing.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, another lost art of communication.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Not in this clinic, you're not using it.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I handed him my resignation.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another edition of Beyond Labels.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your co-host, Dr.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Stina McKella.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm here with Joel Salatin, and we have a very special guest today, Dr.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Michelle Perot.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: But before I bring her on, let me go ahead and recap what we did in a previous episode.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we brought you the breaking news about the FDA's um issuance of the final guidance document for how they intend to enforce and regulate actions on homeopathic drug products that are marketed in the US.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, FDA is claiming that all homeopathic products are illegally marketed because they have not gone through the FDA drug approval process.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, they are categorizing homeopathic products as quote, unapproved new drugs that are illegally marketed.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And according to the FDA's new guidance document, quote, any homeopathic drug product that is being marketed illegally is subject to FDA enforcement action at any time.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the translation is these homeopathic products are on the market illegally, and the FDA can remove them at any time that they want.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: My prediction is this will be death by a thousand cuts.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna happen very slowly.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: They'll target and eliminate one homeopathic medication or group of medicines at one time so as not to affect a large number of users at once, and you might stave off some kind of uprising and not draw so much attention to what's happening.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, the FDA has already announced that it's gonna they will focus on just a few product categories of enforcement initially.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Those are injectables, eye drops, products for vulnerable, vulnerable populations, which they include to be infants, children, immunocompromised, elderly and pregnant women, and products used for prevention or treatment of serious or life-threatening diseases, and products that they believe have shown quality or safety issues.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So today we're gonna go into a little more detail about this continuing and evolving situation that's happening between homeopathy and the FDA.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna share some new insights.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're also gonna answer three listener questions, including one that is a proposed solution, which, right, we're all about solutions on this program, so we love that.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: But first, I want to bring on our special guest, Dr.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Michelle Perrot.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: She is a veteran pediatrician with over four decades of experience in acute and integrative medicine.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: She has more, or more than 15 years ago, Dr.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Perrow transformed her clinical practice to include GMO and pesticide advocacy.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: She's worked as both director and attending physician for New York's Metropolitan Hospital and UCSF Children's Hospital in Oakland.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Perro has managed her own business called Down to Earth Pediatrics, created a new field of integrative urgent care medicine.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: She's co-authored the highly acclaimed book, What's Making Our Children Sick, which, by the way, is phenomenal.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you have not read it, you I think you should.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: She is the executive director of a nonprofit scientific-based website, GMO Science.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: She's authored numerous publications.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: She has a column with the journal, The Townsend Letter, and she's presently working on Regeneration Health International, which is a nonprofit group focused on holistic healing and promoting, quote, food is medicine.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's lectured nationally and internationally on regenerative foods and soil, environmental health, and justice issues focused on children.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she's hoping to release a second book fairly soon.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the program, Dr.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Parrow.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's so wonderful to have you here.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Joel, thank you for having me.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh nothing I like better than uh hanging out with uh people who are changing the conversation.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: With solutions.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Amen to that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I'm reading your bio and it goes on and on and on.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's so many great things.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think most people would probably be shocked to realize that in your practice, you have successfully used homeopathy for years.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I started with my own son when he was a little guy, you know, many, many decades ago, and uh had some health challenges.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a serendipitous encounter just by luck with an MD homeopath.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And she told me what to do for my son homeopathically, and I I was gobsmacked, um, thinking like, what?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: These little pills worked, and I did it again and it worked again.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you've got to be kidding me.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't eat three times to realize that I was pissed off because there was something in medicine that I never learned that was effective, inexpensive, and that kids would take easily because they're made with little sugar pills, and it really changed my whole career 180 degrees.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is so remarkable.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know how I can only imagine that you're this, you know, uh really, you know, credentialed medical doctor, highly respected, and you go to your colleagues and you start sharing that you're using homeopathy, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: How did the medical establishment respond to you when you know you became open about using homeopathy?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure they all wanted to learn about it too.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna give you a couple quick vignettes because as you heard, my story's long and we don't have 11 hours here for this podcast.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, initially I was an eager little beaver.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, hey, everyone, look at this.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna believe it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the amount of eye rolling and laughter and joke making that I was the brunt of for decades was pretty astronomical.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good thing I'm a New Yorker by birth, and I'm kind of tough because geez, I got stones thrown at me and it wasn't a warm, fuzzy welcome.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was pretty ostracized by my community.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And as a matter of fact, one quick story I was working in an urgent care clinic and I gave a kid, the mother wanted it, Arnica.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't force homeopathy on anyone.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on, I offer solutions for a sprained ankle.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Arnica's a great remedy for trauma.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I got reported by that pediatrician, and my boss came to me at the time and said, Michelle, you cannot use homeopathy in this clinic.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, it's over the counter.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's not dangerous.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, gee, his ankle's better.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I follow up on my patients.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: What an idea.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I call people back to see how they're doing.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, another lost art of communication.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Not in this clinic, you're not using it.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I handed him my resignation.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, does that give you an idea of the reception and the warmth that I was welcomed with when I became a hopath?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not to mention I have thousands of anecdotal success stories.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are no lab rats in my practice, just well, some people a little ratty, but no, no, no lab rats, just lots of success stories, thousands.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have so few adverse stories, an occasional one.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think one person didn't do well in homeopathy out of thousands.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: But when you compare that to drug reactions and side effects from drugs, it's minuscule.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's the scales are not even comparable.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Joel's heard me talk about this before, but the third leading cause of death now in the US is prescription drugs, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And half of those are overdosed, but an estimated half are prescribed and administered properly.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a third leading cause of death.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the average prescription drug has about 70 side effects.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: 70.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'm gonna what I didn't mention in my bio, because that bio would have gone on for three days, was that we've started a new program.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's called the New MDs, Moms, Doctors, and Scientists.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: The mom is Zen Honeycutt and she started Moms Across America, I'm the doctor, and Stephanie Sennif, who's a researcher for MIT, is the scientist.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we're doing our fourth interview um next week, and we hope to make them live and people can join in.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we're focusing on drugs.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now we can't focus on all drugs, there are thousands, but we're talking about two of our favorites: Tylenol, acetaminophen, and all those little ingredients in there in those liquid preparations for children.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're called excipients, they're bad news.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a list of bad players, the who's who of badness.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And Stephanie is gonna be talking about statins, and we're gonna be, you know, my the the other evil in the American pharmacopoeia.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you throw a rock, you hit a person on a statin drug for cholesterol, another big myth.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna be covering those because we're trying to bridge the gap.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the future, we're gonna have you guys come on with us, the farmer and the nutritionist, and that's what the new MDs should look like.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that is we're all in it together under this kind of umbrella, and that's what clinics should look like from practitioner to farmer and everybody in between.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're trying to do.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's wonderful.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that's that's great.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, so how um how is that meshing in?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, um, yeah, moms, that's such a wonderful, wonderful group.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: I I know um uh Mrs.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Honeycutt.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh how how is that meshing in with you know Obamacare and insurance companies?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, just so you know, Michelle, you know, I turned 65 last year, and you know what happens when you're gonna turn 65, your mailbox gets full of all sorts of uh outfits that are ready to sign you up for Medicare.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I talked to a couple, you know, functional medical guys, got some counsel, and I decided not to take, I'm not gonna sign up for it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I've paid I've paid thousands of dollars into it over my life, but uh I've decided I'm gonna I'm gonna stay away because I don't want the government to you know to tell me what doctor to go to or what or what thing to take, or even or even to color my decisions, you know, because of some financial incentive to do this instead of that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um what uh how is your how is your interaction with the with the system?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh dear, oh dear.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well that that uh common question is personal and near and dear to my heart because I turned 65 last last year also, and I did sign up for Medicare, and this week I decided that this is a waste, and I'm going to look at insurance that I can buy into.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, it's expensive.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, number two is I don't agree with anything they're doing.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And because of what's happened in the past three years, I have veered so much further away from mainstream medicine.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much if I veer any further away, I'm gonna wind up in China.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so far.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that I don't I don't use those systems.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been asking colleagues of mine, I'm still paying in, I'm about to change it, thinking, like, yeah, you took a lot of my money over the years too, because I've been working since I was 12.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I definitely paid into that system.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought, you know what, I'll support others who use it, but I need to get out.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been investigating other insurances like Good Samaritan and others like that, where you can buy your own insurance.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I am in the process of doing that now.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And my boat is coming out of Medicare too.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's um not the system for me personally because I'm not buying what they're selling.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, wow, that's that gives me chill bumps.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Teresa and I have been with some uh our whole family's been with Samaritan Ministries for a long, long time.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we've we've had one claim.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: We know others who've had numerous claims, and and um, you know, the thing that I like about them is that they have pit bulls to um to negotiate down the the charges, and and as soon as you walk in with Samaritan Ministries, quote unquote insurance, your bill will be half of anybody else's right off the top, automatically, every single one of them.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that's disturbing in itself.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember using a local clinic when my kid was little, having all those issues, and I said, hmm, I better bring him to the mothership, UCSF, University of California, San Francisco, like the major medical center here in my area in California.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I got a bill for a routine visit with someone, and it was wicked expensive.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I called and I said, Wait a minute, you overbilled me because I know how to bill, and I can tell you how you coded me is not what our visit entailed.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: They listed all these things they did for us.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, they didn't.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a doctor, you didn't do that.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was there, have I'm the mom.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so they said, Well, we upbill for those of you with insurance to make up for those who don't at UCSF.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was told.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I happen to have had a huge deductible, so we were paying out of pocket out of that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I said, that wasn't the point.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I said, that is that is medical insurance fraud.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot upbill those to cover those who don't.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I don't think I ever went back.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: My son was one, and that was almost like you know, that was 29 years ago, and never stepped back, football in there.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I got a coffee once, but other than that, wasn't going in that system.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, wow, how powerful.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Cena, get sorry, we're we're we're we're veering here from the topic.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Cena, bring us back to uh to to the to the FDA and homeopathy.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I love this.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'll veer all day long with you and Michelle.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like Michelle, I I'm so far off the path too.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll meet you over in China.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll come back, you know.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Although let's pick something else, like the Scottish Highlands or something.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like China.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't you come and meet and swap?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say that down on Joel's farm.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's a song about that, but um, that's where I'm gonna meet y'all.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm coming.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Save my place, pitch my tent.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um, okay, let's let's jump into this.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I got a lot to cover on the FDA and homeopathy.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this is my my first thing.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't want people to you know turn it off because they're like, I don't use homeopathy.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: For me, this is a larger issue.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is an issue about medical freedom, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because this starts a precedence.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: If they can get homeopathy off the shelves, then where are they gonna stop?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, Michelle, what I love is that um you don't push homeopathy on anybody.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, I'll give you the option, I'll tell you about it.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: You, you do you, right?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to use it, if it resonates with you, then you do it.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not here on the program with us to push homeopathy.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: You are here to help us understand what it is and to express.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get your opinion about what you think.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think with these new homeopathic um drug product guidance that the FDA has finalized?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are you concerned about this new guidance?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see might happen or is happening in the homeopathic um regulations with FDA?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, thank Cena, well well put together there.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm extremely concerned.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let me start there.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm all about medical freedom.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about choice and your ability to choose for yourself and what's best for your own body without some type of regulatory agency telling you what's best.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know you and your and you own your innate body's ability to heal itself.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So having said that, we have to go to history because this is all in the history books, and we're now at a hundred-year cycle of what happened back in 1910 between 1917 when the Flexner report was released.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we all know what that is, but very briefly, that's when John D.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Rockefeller, we all know the oil uh, you know, guy who created pharmaceuticals from oil debris leftover that we're consuming as drugs.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't know to do all that.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And he sent out his brother-in-law, Abraham Flexner, to the medical schools across the U.S.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: and labeled anyone who was using homeopathy, which in San Francisco alone, at the turn of the 20th century, there were 900 practicing homeopaths.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: UCSF, the institution I just bashed, was a homeopathic hospital, Boston College, Hahneman, Jefferson, all across the US, New York Medical College, where I worked and when I was in New York.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So these were homeopathic schools, and they were effectively and systematically shut down as quackery institutions, and they were using homeopathy freely, and including baths and thermals and herbals and all the other um um tools in the holistic toolbox.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So homeopathy almost got eliminated because of this massive attack.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And doctors who said, Hey, wait a minute, that's not right, lost their licenses.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Does this sound familiar?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look what's happening in California, and doctors who speak out against the narrative, oh, get our licenses, the COVID narrative, get our licenses revoked.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's this same playbook.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hey guys, is anyone looking back in history where it's the hundred-year birthday of the last attack?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: In the 1970s, homeopathy kind of reared up again.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: People got using it again, it's over the counter.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love this now.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's safe and effective.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let's use what really works.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it works or it doesn't.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's no side effects, literally, in the kind of um type you can buy over the counter in your natural food store, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's the homeopathic remedies.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a super brief history of what happened.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Until the FDA, pay attention to what they go after.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever they go after is what you want to do, by the way.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Focus on that.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you see the FDA targeting something, it's probably a good thing.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: It competes with pharmaceuticals, and it's clear, enlightened the past few years that they're there to embrace them with in the handshake with the farm big pharma.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: They are like this.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we at all our institutions are going farmer to farm.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're getting away from that model from pharmaceuticals.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're going to a quality of natural medicinals using I hate that word natural, but homeopathics, which are made from plants, animals, and minerals in general, just for simplification.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's um it's I agree with you, death by a thousand cuts.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: The FDA is just going to chisel away with it.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: They've come after supplements already, over-the-counter supplements, you know, vitamin C and vitamin D, they've been after that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the Alliance for Natural Health has been doing a great job.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Rob Verkirk has been reporting on that and other institutions, they're coming after us.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So our holistic toolboxes, whether it's homeopathy, herbal medicine, maybe Chinese medicine, supplements are all under attack in to get us onto the pharma wheel.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the goal.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you want to use homeopathy or not, know that when we lose these tools, we will have very little that we can use to take care of ourselves and our families.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's easily that's affordable, over-the-counter, and um, it doesn't need regulation, FDA regulation.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: FDA has been messing around with homeopathy for years.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: The National Center for Homeopathy, and which I believe is in Virginia, Joel, in your neck of the woods, um, has been fighting against this and keeping us posted as well.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's another great resource that I send people to, is the national organization.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I sign every document supporting homeopathy that comes its way.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why is I've used it, I get great clinical results personally, professionally, and all those doctors that I rolled me over the decades.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've treated most of that, their kids now, including a couple of them that were here at my house that turned around with a ducks, a dose of Nux Lamica.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, they don't eye roll as much.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have had my little remedies with me and said, take a dose of this and that, and like, oh wow.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, right.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there I don't get as much grief about that now as I used to, because I've treated all of them, but this is a huge problem.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again, just to underscore what you first said in your first sentence was this is a loss of our choice, our medical freedom, and everybody needs to be on alert.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's eroding before our eyes.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing subtle about this.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's how I feel.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And my takeaway, too, as I was doing this deeper dive and I want to get into a little bit of what I found, it's exactly what you said.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's um they're trying to get rid of the competition.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just like you know, Rockefeller did with his monopolies, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same playbook.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, they're trying to get rid of the competition.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: They even kind of gave it away in the new guidance, um, the new FDA guidance packet, because one of the things they said here is I'm quoting this, okay?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the homeopathies, right, these drugs.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Raise public health concerns in part because they may cause users to delay or discontinue medical treatments that have been found safe and effective through the new Drug Application Act or New Drug Applications or Biologics license application approval process.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So basically they're saying they they're afraid that people might use homeopathic medicines instead of using um vaccines or drugs that have been approved by the FDA.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they're stating it right there.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: So to me wouldn't it, yeah, wouldn't it be awful if um if I use something to get well and uh and quit using what what they told me to use, um, you know, because because I didn't need to I didn't need to use it anymore.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's that whole thing, like they don't want you to have that choice, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like what you're saying, they want to weed out, get rid of the competition.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and somebody said this to me, I wanted to see what you think about it, because I'm not well versed in homeopathy, okay?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody in the homeopathic community said to me that they think they're really cracking down now because they know that um there are homeopractic home homeopathy practitioners that have been successfully treating long COVID with using homeopathy.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so they are suggesting that they're cracking down on it because once again, there's a treatment that actually works.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, is that if there you can think that that's maybe conspiratorial?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what what do you think about that?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you do you see that homeopathic remedies are working to help people to recover from COVID, you know, and people who have loved to get over the over that?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes, absolutely.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, we've been using homeopathy for chronic diseases for a long time.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, um long COVID, um, long COVID vaccine reactions, all that is definitely amenable to homeopathy.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: In my own experience, people are so much sicker now today than they were then that I believe that it's not just homeopathy we need to use.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: We need to use like um a triad of of tools um concomitantly of supplements, always diet.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, whoa, number one is diet, diet, diet, diet, more diet, let and less less toxicants.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, two are supplements and three is homeopathy to get better.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, these will reverse long COVID.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Whether the FDA um will is going after homeopathy specifically for that, not sure, but they want it to be clear that they're that homeopathy is not good for anything.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to get that message out that this is, you know, it's pseudoscience, you know, we're a bunch of juju witchcraft doctors, this is not real medicine.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And as one of my colleagues told me, I had this discussion with him.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: He he's a geneticist and the head of um his department in King's College in the UK.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Genetics, um, he's a the real deal, been speaking out against GMOs for decades, Dr.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Antonio.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, we were talking about endocrine disruptors and obesogens and things that make people sick, and they're parts per trillion.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Dr.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Antonio, I said, that is the homeopathic range energetically, where we focus remedies.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, absolutely.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So homeopathy, the the medications uh and the treatments we use homeopathically are just super low dose to the point of the energetic level.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the Western mind has a hard time wrapping around is energetic healing.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, it's there, it's not the same as just drinking water when you take a homeopathic remedy.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's energy medicine.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So to get back to your original question, let me circle back here.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it can help for long COVID.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Will it cure long COVID?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't say cure anything because when we deal with COVID, COVID vaccine injuries or whatever we're talking about, these are manipulated illnesses, hard to treat.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're these are not organic, these are manipulated.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's hard to treat them, but homeopathy can be extremely effective, extremely effective in with an experienced homeopath.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so it does look to me, you know, as I've had no more time now since our first podcast about this topic, it does look to me like the FDA is building a case against homeopathy.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to their website where it talks about um homeopathic products, right, um, this is their main webpage to find out about homeopathics.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: They list on that website um six product recalls, like six homeopathic product recalls, five products that they issued health warnings for, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they're building a case right there on that website.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you go to um the guidance documents that they just finalized, they actually mention adverse reactions and even death.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they talk about how um this is one of the new things that I have discovered.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: There was in 1988, there's a compliance policy guide that was issued.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Conditions Under Which Homeopathic Drugs May Be Marketed.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: These guidelines set the regulations for the industry of how to manufacture homeopathic products and how to market them.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: In this guidance document, uh, the new one that was released, FDA has withdrawn that 1988 guidance document.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So they've said it's now null and void, meaning there's no clear guidelines from the FDA of how to get homeopathic drugs, as they're calling them, onto market.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they say the reason they've done that is because of concerns over product safety and patient health.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: They say here it's in the footnotes of this document, actually.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: They say that um for the F, so the FDA has a database called FDA Adverse Events Reporting System.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2016, they claim there are 99 cases of adverse events that were consistent with Belladona toxicity.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this included reports of um even infants' deaths.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then they talk about how um multiple homeopathic drugs were um identified and associated with the safety concern.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was related to teething products, um, and that you know, that basically they feel that homeopathic medications are potentially dangerous for people, and so they want to get them off the market.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: And another document I found that supports that statement, this is another FDA document, and this is what it says.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Today's efforts are a, and they're talking about this new guidance document that was just finalized by FDA.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: The FDA says today's efforts are a continuation of the FDA's long-standing work to protect Americans from potentially harmful products that are labeled as homeopathic.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, I don't think, you know, because here's the deal it is possible, like this looks really bad, right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I haven't even gotten into the other insight I found.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: This looks really bad.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like the FDA is really coming after homeopathy.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I like to give the benefit of the doubt.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps, perhaps FDA might release another guidance document that will show them how to get these products to market.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what what FDA is thinking.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, Jill and I, I think we're all on the same page here.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: We don't think that's gonna happen, but I want to give us some wiggle room in case FDA does, you know.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know that there's like Americans for homeopathy choice, they're pushing back, they're trying to get the FDA to revise this document.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: So let's give them some little wiggle room.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they'll make some changes, okay?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we don't know, maybe this is a slow rollout.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I doubt it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um, it does seem to me that they're making a strong case to be able to remove these homeopathic drugs from the market.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and let me share the other thing that I found, the other piece of information I found that's going to back that claim.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then I want to bring it back to you, um, Dr.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Perro.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I learned over this weekend was that there's two ways that you can bring an over-the-counter drug to market.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: One is this new drug application, and that's what the FDA is saying is the only path for homeopathic remedies to follow.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: If they want to be legally marketed, they need to go through a new drug application.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is the process most of us are familiar with that costs millions of dollars to go get your product tested, you know, in these studies and whatnot, and then the FDA reviews it.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to make it clear though, the FDA does not conduct those studies themselves.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: The company who's made the drug conducts the studies, the FDA reviews it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the FDA is saying that's the way that homeopathic medications can get to market is by going through a new drug application process.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: The second path, though, to get a drug to market is called the over-the-counter drug review process.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is also called um OTC or over-the-counter um monograph.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: According to the FDA, most of the 100,000 marketed over-the-counter drugs go through this process.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: The CARES Act, what I just found out, the CARES Act actually changed that process.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if an over-the-counter drug meets certain requirements, they don't need FDA review and approval before they can be marketed.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that so no FDA review, no FDA approval, and the over-the-counter drug can be marketed.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: They will be, and I'm just I just can't wait to see Joel's response to this.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: They um actually will be considered as generally recognized as safe and effective.
• 32:25
  unknown: So, Dr.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Peryl, we just did a podcast on what it means to be generally recognized as safe in the food supply, right?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Where these chemicals get released into the food, they're not tested by the FDA, nor are they regulated.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when I read this statement, I said, Wait, this sounds really familiar to grass and food.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I started to research it.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what I found in this FDA documents that um a drug can go through this second pathway if it is generally recognized as safe and affected by qualified experts for use under the conditions prescribed, recommended, or suggested in the labeling.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So once again, we have this pathway where qualified experts can say, oh no, this is safe and effective.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: FDA says, cool.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, the CARES Act is what issued that change.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So now the FDA and industry, in fact, can declare some of these over-the-counter medications as generally safe and effective.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to just share this is what the FDA said um in response to this.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: FDA stated this new law, the CARES Act, is so important and exciting.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: The CARES Act includes over-the-counter monograph reform provisions granting the FDA transformative new authorities.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: It replaces the rulemaking process with streamlined administrative order process intended to improve efficiency, timeless um timelines, and predictability.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: It spurs over-the-counter drug innovations that promote consumer choice.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the same guidance document where they're saying we're gonna give you less consumer choice by removing entire categories of homeopathic remedies, they're saying now we're gonna give you more choice of prescription medications because we've streamlined this process and we're gonna be able to get more of these, you know, pharmaceutical over-the-counter drugs on into your pharmacies.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is that the key the key the key there is qualified experts?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: Who's a qualified expert?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: And somebody who drinks the same Kool-Aid as the as the industry.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's someone just like in the food supply, someone who's bought off, you know.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the catch, and I'm gonna throw it over to you, Dr.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Perro.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm reading this and I'm saying, oh, cool, there's a second path, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's streamlined.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's what homeopathic, you know, um manufacturers and stuff can use.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: They can use that second path.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then I go back to the guidance document, and it says in here, check this out um, subsequent to enactment of CARES, you know, the CARES Act, no um grass determinations, so no determinations of this second pathway, none of them will be made for homeopathic drug products.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't even have the option to go through that path.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this is what I'm saying.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: It looks bad.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: They've removed the 1988 uh policy guides for how to get homeopathic drugs onto the market, okay, citing safety issues.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then they've said, oh, we're gonna modify the second path you can take to get a drug to market and streamline it for all the prescription, or I'm sorry, for all the over-the-count pharmaceutical medications, but homeopathic medications can't go through that process.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: They have to go through the new drug application process, which is very expensive.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the protocols are designed for a pharmaceutical drug, which is acts very differently than a homeopathic drug.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when you hear this, you may have already known all this, Dr.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Perro, but as you're hearing me say this, is there any way you can think the FDA is not coming after homeopathic medicines?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, am I perceiving this incorrectly?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: You did an excellent job of summing up some really complicated uh double speak.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's all double speak.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's we've known it to be true with everything.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: The C the FDA, the CDC, the USDA, the EPA have provided the regulatory agencies have made their positions clear.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: They support whether it's big ag big pharma, um, that's clear and not the consumer.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that you said it it historically we are we are in the exact process of where we were 100 years ago, again, eliminating homeopathy from consumer choice.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's again consumer choice, pushing a narrative.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the narrative in this case is pharmaceutical.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, the other issue is homeopathy, the homeopathic remedies, they're not drugs.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So to say that these remedies are drugs is inaccurate.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: There they should be in the supplement category.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you might even want to label some of them as food because many of them come from various natural substances, but they're certainly not drugs, they are over-the-counter supplements, not designed to diagnose or treat any illness, which is what every supplement says.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if the FDA um is to follow its own recommendations, how about that nasty little impossible burger, that little GMO soy burger, where when impossible foods applied for a license, the FDA first turned them down.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: The second time the FDA told Impossible Foods, because their little burger produced all these new proteins that our human bodies have never seen, like 44 of them, said, Well, you guys have shown that it's gross, just generally recognized as safe.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: The study that Impossible Foods did to show that was one month study on 20 rats, 10 female and 10 male.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: That was it.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: They submitted it, and the FDA said, Stamp, you guys are good.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're not giving you the green light.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: You guys have given yourselves the green light now.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Millions and billions of people can eat that nasty little impossible burger because you gave it the gross certification based on one little rat study which showed issues with the burger, reproductive issues, chemistry issues.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this one expert nutritionist from Nebraska said your findings are not clinically significant.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they do.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Their own studies show problems and then they deny them.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if we look at similar issues that have come up, we can see that this system is not designed for medical freedom, medical choice, nor homeopathy.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they're taking us out by labeling remedies as drugs, they're not, and to create these closing off any possible loophole.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where I say one of the strategies is we need legal representation, obviously, because this is now going to become a massive legal battle.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Americans for homeopathic choice do have um legal people on their team because we're now we're now in the legal litigation battle between um and what we're fighting for is freedom.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: I should think all your listeners should be clear.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is really not about homeopathy anymore.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is about taking a part taking apart any choice you may have for autonomy, and your choice will only be in the pharmacy or what you grow yourself.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um or people learn to make their own remedies.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: There is that option, but it ain't easy.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a lot of people, I I can't see a bunch of millennials sitting around getting off their devices, making remedies in their kitchens.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, you know, who's growing uh, you know, the uh the the chamomile flowers and then distilling it down with alcohol and then producing dilutions sterily, you know, from that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a process doable.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's doable, but it's a process.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Most people are not chemist or herbalist or inclined to do that, you know.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: I parents freak out when their kids have a snotty nose now.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can't see them in their kitchens boiling up the you know, the chamomila flowers to make a chamomila 30 C for kids teething.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we are in deep doo-doo here.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want listeners to be clear, we are in deep doo-doo.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: We should we should talk about action.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: If people are concerned about their medical freedom, this is a sore to die on because they're they're showing us what is coming.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what's here?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is now.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is not like, oh, we're thinking about this.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, no, this is here now.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: So people need to like stand up for their freedom.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings me to our first listener question, which is related to this topic.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want to throw it to you, Dr.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Perro.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: This comes from Lori Um Hole.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm saying that correctly.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: She says, Good afternoon.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: After listening to your current podcast, this was the first podcast we did on this topic.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I began to wonder how will this affect online herbal medicine courses?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: I see several homesteaders who offer herbal medicine courses online through their quote-unquote academy.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Will this also be under scrutiny from the FDA?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know most come with a disclaimer, but is that enough to protect their courses and their source of income?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent question, Lori.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I would say not yet, but certainly yes.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I see the whole system being taken apart for one medical system.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: The medical system will be a drug-driven, vaccine-laden system, and you will comply or die.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the that's how I see it.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we have plenty of uh examples we can pull that's happened over the past three years to support this argument and then going back the past hundred years.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say there's nothing yet about the courses, and you're learning you're a homesteader, you're probably making your own.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: But be clear, it this could easily be in the making of just taking out the educators who are teaching it.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because remember, any doctor, for example, who went against the narrative, they went after, right?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have now herbalists and other practitioners who are who are speaking against the narrative, could they be taken out?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: The precedent has been set.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's easier to take us out because of you know, the platform is social media.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: They just, you know, drop your account, they just censor you.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Joel and um our podcast was just censored, you know, so it's really easy for them to take you out now, you know.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Unlike back in 1910, it was gonna be a little bit more difficult.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now the social media is our public square.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're not there, you're you just don't exist for most people, right?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, Joel, once you agree, it's pretty easy now to take us out.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think I think it's uh it's really critical for us to understand that you know we're we're into the philosophical place.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: The the people, the people who who um who want to control your health choices because they have this big, sincere, embracing heart to protect you from making.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Risky decisions because I love you and care for you so much that I don't want you to hurt yourself with a with a bad decision.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: That that sincere sounding philosophy puts you on a trajectory that that correct me if I'm wrong, uh Dr.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: Perro, it actually puts you on a trajectory that as you were talking, Michelle, I couldn't help, I mean, Michelle, Cena, um I couldn't help but thinking, well, goodness, okay, so so they so they shut down the the uh the practitioners and the teachers.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact is that if they actually believe these things are harmful, the next thing is if you give them to your children, they pull your children out of your home and accuse you of being a negligent parent, and your child has to go into child protective services.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's what those of us at the beginning at the vanguard of the homeschooling movement went through.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: When we started homeschooling our kids, uh whatever, 40 years ago, uh good how long has it been now?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh 60 years ago.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, am I that old?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, when we started doing that, uh no, not that old, but anyway, uh, when we started doing it a long time ago, there were actually parents who lost their children to child protective services because they were engaging in such antisocial aberrant behavior as homeschooling.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: Fortunately, the homeschoolers won that won that battle.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: We we definitely won that battle.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: Michael Ferris came on, Homeschool Legal Defense Association came on, and we won that battle.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: But those those kinds of battles by sincere-minded people who think they know best um are are fought in various you know various arenas.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: And right now, one of those arenas, it it seems, is certainly in big picture the whole medical arena, but specifically the homeopathic arena right now.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's an excellent point.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's also I think it was strategic to start with homeopathy, right?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Versus what we would maybe consider herbalism, like growing your own herbs and making those kind of sabs and you know tinctures and whatnot.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for one, there's less people who do homeopathy than just herbalism in in general, but it's also harder, right, Dr.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Perrot, to regulate herbalism because it is easier to grow herbs and to put them into a sab or to convert them into a tincture, right?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Most people, like you said, are not going to kind of set up a lab condition, sterile condition, and do all these dilutions to make these homeopathic products.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: So this is my this is totally me guessing.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm theorizing here.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's why they're coming after homeopathy first, right?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: And doing this like death by a thousand cuts.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then, in my opinion, it will, if that's successful, it will roll over into these other herbalism areas.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you agree, disagree, Dr.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Perro?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 100% behind you, Cena.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with, you know, both of your statements and this and and the precedents are of any time that we as people, humans, trying to step outside of what they're telling us is good for us, we get a lot of pushback.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: So again, whether it's homeschooling, homeopathy, um, you want herbalism, you know, this this challenges their control and their profiteering uh pariah um that they've created.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all profiteering.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: When people come off these drugs because they get healthy on homeopathy, herbalism, spiritual healing, whatever, whatever they're doing that works, they lose one person on one statin drug at$300 a month, multiply that by millions of people, Americans, on drugs.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when people come into the yard with their bag of pharmaceuticals, all I can see is wow, that's about$2,000 a month, one patient right there.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can see the billions of dollars that they are protecting.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so the issue comes down to lobbying.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: We have big political agendas with these pharmaceutical people supporting our politicians and they're lobbying for it.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this comes down to what do we do?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because to give people this doom and gloom sensation without the what we do is is, I think um, it's misguided.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: We we have power, but we don't have power so much as individuals, but in community, we sure do.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we still elect these people in our communities, in our local representatives.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have to pick the people and support those who will run on our platforms who support what we do.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even about party anymore, it's about the individual.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Does that individual support medical freedom?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: I get texts all the time.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not supporting medical freedom, you're not my party.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're not my person.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm looking for.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to support those organizations that are representing us, and we all have to step up from the community to the legislation because this is happening at the law level.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And laws get set.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you see the FDA is changing language, CDC does it all the time all the time, the EPA, they didn't want to change their language around glyphosate, you know, the main ingredient in Roundup.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the EPA debacle, a total mess what they do with glyphosate, went against all the scientific studies.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: They literally do what they want.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to say no, that we want a parallel structure, a different paradigm.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if we have to move out of that structure, so be it and create our own.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because that structure is telling us to do things a certain way, and we're saying no, we don't want to do it that way.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Give us our choice.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: And this goes into what Joel talked about on a previous podcast about creating PMAs, right?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Private membership associations, right, Joel?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's the PMA?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: Personal, personal membership associations.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, personal membership associations, um, as one workaround for how we can potentially create this parallel economy.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I want to get into solutions for the time we have left.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, first, let me get because you mentioned um making laws.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let me um read one of the listeners' comments.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's about this legal issue, and then we'll get into the solution.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: We're about out of time, Cena.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: We need to, we need to we we need to wrap up here.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, let's go into the solutions.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Dr.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Perro, you just mentioned, you know, a couple with, you know, voting people out, not supporting other people.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Joel has a solution of a PMA.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this one came from a listener, um, Daniel Eby.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to see what what you guys think.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try to, it's really long, so I'm gonna try to condense it down.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um that basically he's saying, let's get together and begin having legal documents drawn up based on the irrefutable evidence of the way nature actually works.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Become the hammer that whacks the sneaky little fingers, which will forever keep inching over to grab more than is earned.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not complicated.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Our entire society is currently rooted and money grubbing wordplay through the courts, and you can do it too.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um basically, he says, make it legal, make homeopathy legal, you know, the homeopathic drugs and whatnot.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Start an organization aggregating all of the information gathered independently, which is a lot now, on the many ways to cure people.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Band together, but be aware you will be attacked.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: So keep organized yet decentralized.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So all of your information is secured at multiple locations.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: He says, be being nice and sweet is okay.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: He must be talking about me, Joel.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: So being nice and sweet is okay as long as you're not naive.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there these people are playing dirty, you know.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the good thing is anyone can access, can have access to the legal process and get in the trenches anytime they want to.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Ignore what they're doing, uh, make your own narrative and make it all documented.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not understanding.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's so he's suggesting something about um us going through, you know, creating legal documents to actually make these things legal ourselves instead of being reactive to what you know these bureaucrats are doing to us.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you think?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that um all these suggestions are excellent.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that one, you know.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: But this is going to require a multi-prong approach.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be on the offensive and the defensive.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have to play the football game.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: America loves football.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: We play both sides.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: We need a strong offense, we need a strong defense.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we fight their attacks on the defense.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: We need a strong offensive.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in the multi-prong approach.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the ways that I would suggest we do it, and um I is internationally because homeopathy, you throw a rock, you hit a homeopath in India.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: Our friends in France, I'll share one quick story.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know we have a time crunch.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, Dr.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sarrelini, who was one of the main investigators of Roundup and Toxicity in his landmark paper, which showed rats with tumors.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the listeners may remember that.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: He created a product in in 2010 or 2012.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it was an herbal formulation to combat glyphosate with various herbs, um, dandelion, berberine, etc.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: There were three or four.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Digiogen.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: And but what he found that he couldn't get the herbal product quickly to market in France.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he made it homeopathic because in France it was easier to go homeopathic than herbal.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so this product is available, and I think I have some some somewhere along my desk, is to use it um homeopathically.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically homeopathic dandelion, homeopathic berberine, and there's one more uh compound in there, um, art articlopium or something like that, I believe.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, but the but the point is not what's in the product, although some people might want it, is that in France that was easier to go homeopathic.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: This was some years ago.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: But our international friends, where they use one-third of German MDs use a homeopathy.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: In Italy, it's accepted, in France, it's loved.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: The UK, homeopathy is not so great.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: India, Pakistan, massive amounts of homeopathy users.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: We have to ban, bind, combine, join with our global friends in other countries to support the homeopathic movement here.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you say, well, Michelle, how do we do that?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure, but I do know that these folks in other countries are doing it.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just like with with you know, COVID, we joined with the World Council for Health.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's with Tess Laurie, Dr.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Tess Laurie, they're sitting in the UK, but they have a global community, the World Council for Health.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we need a World Council for Homeopathy, because homeopathy has friends across the globe.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in my mind, in my perfect world, that's what I would focus on.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, fantastic.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: Sina, we gotta wrap up.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh, unfortunately, because I I love this topic.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much more we can go into it, and I love Dr.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: Perro.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're filled with knowledge.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love you guys.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed this.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm very grateful for your first hand experience as well in homeopathy and your fight against glyphosate and your fight against uh GMOs.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're a true warrior.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: I am um, you know, a uh a strong admirer of yours.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love at some point for you to come on the show, back on the show and talk to us about what you were talking about, your current endeavor with trying to heal people with different frequencies.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think people would be fascinated to learn that.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we would love to have you back on the show at your convenience.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love meeting fellow warriors out there and uh warrior S'um to come out and talk about what we do.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: But this is how it works, right?
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: We are we're stronger together.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when we all network together and we're making community, we can what we're doing is building community, your listeners, your farm, your work, Cena.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we just keep growing organically.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love that we're regenerating our health through an organic movement.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we are the real deal, we are the regenerative movement, we are the organic movement, call it what you will, but that's how we do it.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we're it's not planting a seed, we are forests, baby.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: We are growing rapidly.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say please keep in our community, keep us growing and stay networked and not fighting among each other.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not do that, let's stay collegial.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm I am I'm strongly convinced that we're gonna turn this around.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have no doubt about it otherwise.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for being on with us.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you are just a champion in this space.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: We admire your work, we love you.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: We're honored that you took the time to be with us.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: We're honored that you listeners joined us today for this broadcast, this podcast of Beyond Labels.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining us.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: We look forward to visiting with you again next week.