Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant And HIs OIG Interview (4-7) (7/4/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant And HIs OIG Interview (4-7) (7/4/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
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where we left off with the unnamed lieutenant and the
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interview with the OIG investigators. Question when did you become
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aware that inmate redacted was removed from MCC on August ninth,
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twenty nineteen. Answer I don't know. Question what is he
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gets cut off by the lieutenant? The only thing I
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heard is I know I woke up. They're saying I
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saw the story. Question what is your involvement as the
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activities lieutenant that day with inmates who are going to court? Answer?
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I didn't have any involvement. Question so the activities lieutenant
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is not involved? Answer no? Question Is the ops lieutenant involved?
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Answer not really? No question, So who's involved? Answer? R
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and D Receive and discharge question okay, And do you
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remember who was working in R and D that day
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that morning? Answer no? Question are you able to tell
1:00
by looking at that sheet? How does that work? How
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do you find out who was in R and D
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for the day on that morning? Answer that's the custody roster.
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I'm not sure. Question so that's a different roster. Answer yeah.
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Question what would that roster be called? Answer? I don't know. Question,
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you're not sure. Answer, that's not our department. Question. So
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did they come and retrieve those individuals from the shoe
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or does the shoe bring them to R and D? Answer?
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It depends. If it gets busy, you say hey, I
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need help, they go up and help you out. If not,
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the shoe crew, all right, take them down. Question. So
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if they were at a non busy traditional way, who
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would have been the people on that roster? Answer the
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shoe crew question? And who on that day? Answer you
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mean for the court movements question? Yeah, like what time?
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First of all, I guess I should say answer It depends,
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That's what I'm saying. So it depends on if they're
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going to Brooklyn or wherever you start early at six
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that would be a morning watch or day watch question,
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so it would be one of the other, and does not.
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Let's say, if it was eight am, who would have
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done it? Answer day watch crew question? And who was
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on the day watch that day? Answer redacted redacted and
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redacted question? And anybody any of those people do you
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remember speaking about? Redacted? Answer? No question, all right? And
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who was the oic? Who is the officer in charge
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of that crew. Answer redacted. Question redacted was not redacted? Answer?
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According to this it was redacted. Question. Okay, so on
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the document it's redacted. All right. I'm going to show
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you a memo that was written by redacted on August twelfth,
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twenty nineteen, and it's the subject is pass information from
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Special Housing Unit. It says, on Friday, August ninth, twenty nineteen,
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at approximately one fifty pm, I SOS redacted passed on
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to on coming staff officers redacted and President shif staff
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SOS redacted. An officer redacted that inmate redacted was going
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WAB and possibly may not return. Also that inmate Epstein
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will be needing a cell mate upon arrival from his
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attorney visit. So does that refresher memory? Did you have
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any conversation with redacted? Answer? No? Question. Who would have
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made redacted aware that redacted was going WAB? Answer? He
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could see it on the roster. They send a sheet
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up the night before. Question, So if that's not on
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the night before, If on the night before there's no
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WAB and this is at one fifty pm that this
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notification was made. Note if there's no WAB, well, first
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of all, what's WAB stand for? Answer? With all belongings? Question?
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And if WAB is not next to the name on
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the night before the August eighth roster, how would he
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be aware? At around one fifty? Would normally the court
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call R and D and R and D pass that
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information along? Answer? R and D could have called them.
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Question So would R and D call shoe directly? Or
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would they typically call the ops or activities? Lieutenant? Answer?
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They call the shoe. Question They do call shoe directly,
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They wouldn't call you, guys, and you would have to
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pass the information on answer no question, Okay, So is
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it your belief then that if it's that in fact,
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what happened if RADAKTD went to court and then he
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became WAB, just tell me what's your understanding? Answer? I'm
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not sure how that one question of how that would work? Answer,
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I'm not sure about that question. Yeah, I'm not saying
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specifically how he got it. What would be the typical
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way that would work? If an inmate goes to court
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and then's released, How does that process work once that
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inmate is released? What happens from that point for the
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court and how do they make the notification known to
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the mcc all the way down to where that inmate
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was out, specifically this one in the shoe answer R
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and D, Hey, that guy's not coming back. Question and
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then would they typically say now WAB? Would that be
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the words that they typically use, or would they say
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he's not coming back? Answer either or the WAB is
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something that's on the roster question okay? So is WAB
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specific to the roster or is WAB also if he
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was called and told question I'm not sure. I don't know.
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I've seen it before on the roster. Like, Hey, this
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is the court list. It says WAB. Question right, and
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I'm saying in this circumstance, if there is no WAB
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next to the name, he gets cut off by the lieutenant.
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I'm not sure. Question Okay, But you didn't have any
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conversations with redacted? Answer no, question No, and you seem
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pretty confident with that, not like I can't recall you
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did not have any conversations with redacted? Answer? Yeah, I
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had no conversations with them. Question what about with redacted?
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Did you have any conversation with redacted about redacted going
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WAB or not coming back? Answer? I can't recall that
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either question did you know that redacted had left that
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day for court? Answer? No question. So then, therefore, did
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you not know that he was coming back? Answer? No,
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I didn't know. Question okay, And you didn't know or
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don't remember if you actually did a round in the
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shoe to see if you was in there? Answer no question.
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So can you recall any conversation you had that day
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about redacted? Answer? I don't think I had any conversations
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about redacted. Question That's what I'm asking. So you can't
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recall any conversation you had that day about redacted? Answer
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no question, And you don't think you had any answer
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no question. No, Okay, all right, we're going to continue
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with this, but before they move on the other best
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to get her jumps in. So, just to clarify the
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night before, how would mcc get to know that redacted
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is leaving? Answer? Well, like I said, the court list.
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Question the court list? Who creates it? Answer? But sometimes
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that's not always accurate. Question who creates it? Answer? R
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and D? Question and it doesn't show who's in R
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and D over there? Right? Answer no question. No, But
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R and D creates the court list? And what do
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they do with that court list. Answer. They send it
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out to all of the units, so you get one.
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If you're a unit officer, you'll get it and say, okay,
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I got three guys leaving because it says WAB So
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you say, hey, wake up, we're packing up and we're leaving.
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Question they send the whole list or they just did
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the email saying hey, these are the inmates leaving from here?
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Answer yeah, I've never seen an email. I've just seen
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the list. Question okay, and it's just like a generic
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email that goes to everyone. Answer it's a call list.
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Question but sorry, I want to make sure that I
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understood what you just said. Is it provided by email
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or is it provided He gets cut off by the lieutenant.
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I've never seen it provided by email. Question So you've
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never seen it on email. It's just a list that's provided.
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So who R and D comes and gives it to
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the shoe. Answer No, they send it up. Question so
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internal comes and gets it? Answer internal? Yeah. Question so
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on this date, would you know who would have been internal?
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Who would have provided that list to the shoe? Answer?
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I see who's internal, but I'm not I don't know
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if they would have provided it we've got two internals.
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Question and who are the two internals? Answer redacted phonetic
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and redacted. Question all right, so they're the two that
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typically you're not saying that they did, but they're typically
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the people would have provided the court list. Answer yeah, internal,
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that's what they usually do. It could have been a
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sanitation answer. Now, isn't the list typically provided the day
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before or is it just created the day before? Answer?
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I don't know. Is it provided the day before? Question? Yeah?
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Answer it was provided the same day? Question it is?
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Answer you get about you get the morning watch the
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day of question I was always I was under the
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understanding that it was the night before on August eighth,
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they would create the list for the morning on August ninth.
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Do you know was that a correct understanding? Answer? I'm
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not sure. All I know is if you're an officer,
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you get it the day of question all right, and
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you've worked in the shoe before? Answer yeah, question okay,
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so when you worked in the shoe it would come
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in that morning. Answer yeah. Question around what time would
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it arrive? Answer about two in the morning. I know
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that's early. Qu oh super early? So it would come
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in on morning watch? Answer yeah, morning Watch question okay,
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and are there people in internal working at that time
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around two am? Answer yeah. Question and is that the
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same people that you just listed? Answer yeah. Question so
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those morning Watch individuals are the ones that would probably
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have provided the court list? Answer yeah. Question And do
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you know is that document maintained anywhere? The court list document?
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Answer no? Question is that like uploaded in any kind
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of system? Answer not that I know of. Question No,
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you said that R and D creates it, but they
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created in a system? Answer I don't know. I mean
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that's not my department. Question Okay, is there like an
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officer in charge of R and D? Answer yeah, so
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you have ACMC. And do you know who in August
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would have been that person? Question? Answer in August? No,
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because I know that the CMC was out for a
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while and they got they also had a supervisor. Question
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and do you know who that would be? Answer no,
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But they had a supervisor. I know that's their position,
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but I don't know who it was. Answer And that
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would be like a lieutenant answer no, question who would
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he gets cut off by the lieutenant? Lieutenant in custody
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R and D is non custody? Question? Explain to me
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what R and D is as far as he gets
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cut off by the lieutenant that's receiving in discharge. So
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they deal with the inmate movement, the inmate courts, the transfers,
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the self surrenders. Question and you're saying that they're not
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called lieutenants or anything. What are their titles? Answer Correctional
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system officer question correctional systems officer. And like a supervisor,
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would they still be like he gets cut off by
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the lieutenant supervisor Correctional systems officer question? And would that
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be like a nine or an eleven type answer something
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like that question? All right, but they're just outside of
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you said custody underneath. What's the system that they're underneath?
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Answer it's the non custody and custody question okay, answer,
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and they have correctional officer a correctional worker as opposed
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to custody. Is a correctional officer question? Okay? And who
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would be does the captain also have oversight over them? Answer? No, question?
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Who has oversight over them? Non custody? Answer the CMC?
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They have a supervisor question? What does the CMC mean?
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Answer Correctional management coordinator question? Okay? And that is outside
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the captain's perview. Answer yep. Question and you don't remember
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who that was at the time? Answer no. All right, folks,
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we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next
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episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where
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we left off. All the information that goes with this
12:59
episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
13:03
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
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this episode, we're going to pick up where we left
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off with the witness statement given by the unnamed lieutenant
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from MCC to the OIG investigators. Question okay, and you
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said you did not have any conversations at all, So
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you didn't have any conversations with redacted about redacted? Answer no,
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not that I remember. Question what about with redacted? Answer no,
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question no, but he would have been he relieved redacted?
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Answer I can't recall. Question no. Answer nope. Question and
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was redacted? Do you remember if you had any kind
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of interaction with her at all on August ninth? Answer no,
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question no, So obviously you can't remember if you had
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any conversations about redacted. Answer no, I don't remember discussing redacted.
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Question right, so, did you ever receive any call around
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one point fifty or at any time saying that redacted
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was going WAB. No, So at this point in time,
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obviously you're saying you didn't know anything at that point
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in time. Now, after the fact, what do you know
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about redacted being removed from the MCC Answer? I just
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know that he went to court and he never came back,
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and that was it. Question do you know any information
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about who was informed that he wasn't coming back? Answer
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no question. So even after the fact, you don't know,
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Answer no question. Do you know anything? I mean, was
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it at all discussed, like, hey, somebody dropped the ball there?
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Answer no question. No, there wasn't even a conversation. Answer.
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I mean, that's the thing. I don't recall him going
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I didn't know me personally, I didn't know he was
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going WAB, and I don't think a lot of the
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other people did either. Question. Did anyone ever ask you
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about that? Answer about redacted? No question? Even after answer
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no question. So like on August tenth, August eleventh, August twelfth,
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did anyone come up to you and say, hey, did
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you know redacted wasn't coming back? Answer no question. And
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have you ever been interviewed for this matter before. Answer
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no question. No, did you have a conversation with people
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like redacted or redacted or anyone regarding this matter after
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Epstein was found? Answer what matter? Question Epstein being found
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and not having a cell mate? Answer no question. No,
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you never talked to anybody in the institution about that?
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Answer about him not having a cell mate? Or are
15:39
you talking about him being found? Question No, about him
15:42
not having a cell mate? Answer I mean we sent
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to hey, what happened, or like, what happened to his
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cell mate? He got released? Okay, it was he said
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it was like that. But nothing, No, not like that. Question.
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Was it any conversation of like, hey, why didn't they
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put a new cell mate with him? Answer no question No.
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So if at around one fifty he gets cut off
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by the lieutenant, that's what I'm saying. That's the time.
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That's why I'm looking at you saying one fifty question Yeah,
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I mean, this is where I'm getting the one fifty
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is because it says redacted knows that at least by
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one fifty he's going wab Should he have communicated with
16:24
either or redacted about that? Answer? I don't know. I
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don't know how he communicated with question No, I'm not
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asking who he did. I'm asking you should he have answer?
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I mean, I know when I was OIC and they
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give us a call. Okay, so if he didn't say
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nothing to the lieutenant, I could see why. I mean,
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you're telling me on the OIC and okay, I got
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the notification. Question Is it abnormal that he didn't pass
16:53
it on though? Should have he passed it on to you? Answer?
16:56
It's not, it's not. I mean he gets cut off
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by the investigation. Could have he placed another inmate with
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someone like Epstein? Answer? I'm not sure, because then again
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it says possibly wab's get canceled. They get canceled. That's
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why the one fifty we don't know until laughter like, hey,
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who is this guy coming back? R? And D is
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open at eight nine? Question so about what time would
17:22
they normally make that notification? That? Okay, he gets cut
17:26
off by the lieutenant after four? Question after four? Answer? Yeah?
17:31
Question and is it some when you say after four?
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Is it usually between four and five? Answer after four? Anytime?
17:38
After four? Question? So anywhere from four to five, four
17:42
to six, four to eight, So after the four pm count?
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Answer after the four pm count question? And why is
17:51
it after the count? Question? Because that's when the guys
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come back. After the count, we do the four o'clock count,
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and then you get an indiscernible count. Change is like this,
18:02
you get twenty guys coming back from court. This wab
18:05
got canceled. Question. So as far as the four o'clock count,
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or is it at that point do people start saying
18:12
where are these guys and start making calls? Are they
18:16
coming back or not? Answer? At four? No question No,
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So when is the next time that they would be
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listed on that count? Answer the nine o'clock count. Question,
18:27
the ten o'clock count. Answer, oh, the ten o'clock count. Yeah.
18:32
Question do you want to ask some more questions on
18:34
that line? I'm just trying to because I thought it
18:37
was I felt people have told at four that that's
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when they start making calls to say is this guy
18:43
coming back or not? That's not your understanding answer? Why
18:47
would you make a call at four? Question? Because you've
18:51
got to know if they're coming back to the unit
18:53
or not coming back? Answer, well, the count three forty
18:57
five is over, so you're in the unit or not?
18:59
So at four o'clock we do the count. After the count,
19:02
that's when the guys come in from court, That's when
19:05
we get the guys coming back to the shoe and
19:07
going back to their units. Question and would you be
19:11
would anybody be notified prior to four that people were
19:14
or were not coming back? Answer? Not to my understanding,
19:18
No question, all right, So to your understanding, it's not
19:22
until four or later that this, you know, people would
19:25
know redacted was not coming back. Answer? Yeah, question all right,
19:29
So if redacted doesn't come back after four pm, who
19:33
on that daily assignment roster would be responsible for making
19:35
notifications or determining that Epstein needed a cell mate? Answer?
19:40
I mean the notification is here. We already have the notification.
19:45
Question Yeah, I know you're pointing to the email that
19:47
says that he requires to have a cellmate. What I'm
19:50
asking is, okay, four on at some point after four
19:54
you're saying redacted, it's known that redacted is now not
19:57
coming back, not possibly not coming back, but he's not
20:02
coming back. Who would be responsible for placing for making
20:06
notifications that, hey, Redacted's out, Epstein does not have a
20:09
cell mate. We need to start making some notifications. Answer,
20:14
I mean, I don't know there is no notification. That's
20:18
if he doesn't have a cell mate, we give him
20:19
a cell mate. Question. Yeah, So what I'm saying is
20:24
he gets cut off by the lieutenant, But the lieutenant
20:27
is not saying hey, by the way, you know, if
20:29
they catch it, they'll say it. But if they don't,
20:32
he gets cut off again by the investigator. And I'm
20:35
not saying it's a lieutenant's responsibility. What I'm asking is
20:39
who's responsibility? Is it answer to say, hey, this guy
20:44
get it in a cell mate or make a notification? Question? Yeah, like,
20:48
who would be the first one to know that redacted
20:50
is no longer there? Would it be the shoe Answer?
20:53
I'd say R and D. Question, So R and D
20:56
would be there. What's R and d's responsibility at that point? Answer? Oh, hey,
21:01
we've got all the inmates back. It's such and such
21:04
and that's it. You ain't get them, then they're not
21:07
coming back. They're gone. Question, But would R and D
21:10
be responsible for saying, hey, shoe, redacted isn't coming back,
21:14
or would they say, hey, absolute tenant, redacted isn't coming back.
21:19
Who would notify R and D? Answer? I'm not sure.
21:22
In the past, I would say they call in shoe directly.
21:26
Question shoe directly? Answer? Yeah? Question all right, So in
21:29
the shoe after four who is working? Answer redacted, Noel
21:34
and redacted? Question redacted, noel and redacted? Are they the
21:38
only three? Answer? That's the only three listed? Question? Okay?
21:43
So one of those three were likely notified? Answer I'm
21:46
not sure. Question okay. And if they weren't notified, at
21:50
what point would they know redacted isn't coming back? Answer?
21:54
I'll say about eight o'clock? Question And how would they
21:58
be notified? Answer because usually all the inmates are by then,
22:02
you know, talking to the lieutenant, Hey, is anyone else
22:05
coming down there? That's like a follow up call? Question?
22:09
Is there some point when they should be saying, hey,
22:12
this guy left at eight this morning, he's still not back. Answer? No,
22:17
you said, is it at some point? Yeah? Question so,
22:22
and at what point is that? Is it during the
22:25
count or is it or is there, like you know,
22:27
duties that they're doing prior to the count where they've
22:31
got to make sure that people are there. How does
22:33
that work? You've worked in the shoe, so from your
22:37
recollection from when you worked in the shoe, how would
22:40
that work? Especially being that mcc as a jail, not
22:43
a prison where people could at any time be released
22:46
or moved. How does that work in the shoe answer
22:50
I used to have like that, I think set by
22:52
eight o'clock question, I'm sorry, what did you say about eight?
22:57
Answer by eight o'clock is when I say, hey, is
23:00
anyone else like coming up? And this is the base count?
23:04
Like I want to get everything straight in the computer,
23:07
I'll say eight o'clock. Question And on that date when
23:10
those three people were working, who would typically be responsible
23:14
for doing something like that? Is it like shoe one,
23:17
shoe two two three? Or is it just anybody any
23:21
one of them? Or how does it work? Answer to do? What?
23:26
Question to say? Like, hey, we've got to make sure
23:28
our base count is correct? Answer? I mean it could
23:31
be any one of them. Question any one of them?
23:35
Answer yeah, question but it's not like someone's job, it's
23:38
just someone should take the role. Answer I mean, but
23:43
they've got to have the base count right for the
23:45
ten o'clock count question, So one of those people should
23:48
have got the base count right. But it's not one
23:50
specific person's duty, or is it something that they're supposed
23:53
to collaborate on altogether? Answer, I mean it depends. It
23:57
depends if you're working Hey, such and such and discernible.
24:01
If you're number two, you know, you go to the board.
24:04
You could change it yourself. You know, the OIC, all right,
24:07
you know, making sure everything is in order. Question was
24:11
there an OIC on that night? Answer? Yes, question who
24:15
answer redacted? Question so redacted was the OIC? Answer yeah.
24:20
Question so technically he's probably the one who should have
24:24
been responsible to catch the fact that their base count
24:26
changed and he wasn't coming back. Answer I'm not sure
24:30
about that because he was non custody. I'm not sure.
24:34
Question Okay, answer, because you see, he's non custody. Mine
24:38
was non custody. He's just up there for overtime. So
24:41
I'm not sure. Question Okay, Now, as far as the
24:44
lieutenant's job, So at that point in time, it was redacted,
24:47
that was the ops and redacted that was the activities.
24:52
What's their role in ensuring that redacted is one back
24:55
and two Epstein is placed with a new cell mate.
24:59
Answer yeah. Question do they have any role or is
25:03
it all on the shoe? Answer I mean it's they
25:07
don't have a role. You know, he gets cut off
25:09
by the investigator. What about when you're conducting the rounds
25:14
as part of their responsibility to say, to check that
25:17
kind of stuff or is it just to see what
25:19
inmates are there and that the inmates that are there
25:22
are okay? Answer? Pretty much, you've got to do a round.
25:27
Question does that round in tel verifying that Epstein has
25:30
a cell mate and redacted? Isn't there? Answer I'm not
25:35
sure about that. We just know we do our rounds.
25:38
Question So that goes back to what does a round
25:41
and tel? Does that mean that you need to verify
25:43
that the people that are on the books are there
25:45
and other people are removed? Answer? Yeah, with staff and
25:49
accountability for the most part, you know inmates banging. Hey,
25:53
all right, I'll be up doing my round. I'll deal
25:56
with this when I get up there. Question. But when
25:59
you say for accountability, what does that entail? Answer? Presence
26:04
of inmates Depending on who goes up there, they know okay,
26:08
this is on, They try certain things, they won't try
26:11
certain things. Question are you comparing a list of the
26:15
inmates that you know to be in the shoe with
26:17
who's actually in the shoe? Answer? No, not for a round?
26:23
No question No, all right, So as far as the
26:26
round conducted by a lieutenant, would they know would they
26:29
be able to figure out that redacted was removed? Answer?
26:33
Depending on what time the round was. Question and can
26:37
you give me more explanation? What time would that change? Answer?
26:41
If I do an early round and Epstein's in a
26:43
cell by himself, Okay, I still have time still doing
26:46
core movements and it wouldn't raise no suspicion or no alarm.
26:51
Question Okay, So about what time would there be a
26:54
suspicion or an alarm that would be raised? Answer? I
26:59
told you at a eight question eight answer? Yeah. Question
27:03
because we're dacted hasn't been back? Answer? Yeah, All right, folks.
27:08
We're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next
27:10
episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where
27:12
we left off. All the information that goes with this
27:15
episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
27:19
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
27:23
this episode, we're picking up where we left off with
27:25
the electrical engineer and his interview with the OIG investigators. Question,
27:30
so that was August ninth you left that day? What time? Answer?
27:34
On maybe the end of my shift two pm? Or
27:37
maybe like an hour later question two pm? Answer yeah,
27:40
two pm or maybe three. Question When did you come
27:43
back on shift? Answer six am in the morning? Question
27:48
on August tenth? Answer yes. Question And what do you
27:51
recall happened on August tenth? Answer? As soon as I
27:55
came to the front door, I heard a body alarm
27:57
on ten self, and then I ran up to the
28:00
body alarm on ten South, I mean nine South. Question
28:06
and who hit the body alarm? Answer? I don't know.
28:08
I guess the officer, whoever's on ten and nine South? Question?
28:13
And when you got up there? What did you see? Answer?
28:15
I don't know. I saw? What did you see? We
28:18
were all just I don't know what did I see?
28:20
I got up there? Question let's start off then, who
28:24
was up there? And when you got up there? Answer? Okay,
28:28
When I got up there, I got on the elevator
28:30
with Who did I get on the elevator with? I
28:32
think it was redacted from food Services? Was there? Redacted?
28:36
Was there? And redacted? And I think lieutenant at the
28:39
time was lieutenant redacted? When I got upstairs? Those are
28:43
the officers that I remember. And then the officers that
28:46
were on the unit were officers Thomas and Officer Noel,
28:51
and then I just remember us saying we needed to
28:53
get the stretcher from the hallway and in a d machine,
28:56
and then they took him and put them on the stretcher,
28:59
and I think after a little while the medical PA
29:02
came upstairs and then started working on them, and then
29:06
me and redacted we're still doing chess compressions. We took
29:09
them to the second floor until the ambulance came. Question Okay,
29:14
I'm going to step back a little bit. So when
29:16
the body alarm went off, right, and you were in
29:19
the elevator with redacted and redacted when you got up there,
29:24
who was up there? Answer? I think Lieutenant Redacted I
29:28
think was upstairs already. Maybe not. And then I know
29:31
miss Noel was there? Question? Noel? Is that Noel? Answer?
29:37
I don't know how to say the name right question
29:41
touven Noel answer tovin Noel, she was there? And Thomas
29:45
was there? Question? Okay? Is that Michael Thomas answer? Yeah,
29:49
Michael Thomas. Question so you were one of the very
29:51
first people on the scene. Answer yeah, question possibly the
29:56
first maybe Lieutenant Redacted answer yeah, they probably. I think
30:00
they might have got up there before we did. I'm
30:03
not too sure. Question when you say they, was there
30:07
someone other than that? Answer? There was everybody in the
30:10
elevator and it was just like a malaise or he
30:14
gets cut off. But you said you were one of
30:16
the first. So when you arrived to the cell, what
30:19
did you see? Answer? I saw Thomas picking them up
30:23
and people were helping them put them on the stretcher.
30:26
Question okay, so when did you start doing the chest compressions?
30:30
Answer like right away? Question on the stretcher though, answer yeah,
30:35
question okay, but not on the floor. Answer no, I
30:38
don't believe on the floor. Well that's a lie from
30:41
Michael Thomas. Then, right, remember what he said and remember
30:44
what Tova said. They were lying. Question Sorry, I'll turn
30:49
it back over to you the other investigator. No, it's
30:53
the same question. So when you walk in, let's say
30:56
you walk into the shoe, was the gates open already? Answer?
31:00
The tier where he was on was open, and I
31:02
don't remember if the sally port door was opened because
31:05
the inner door. I think somebody had to open that door.
31:08
Question Okay, so you walk in and you head right
31:10
up to the tier. Answer yeah, because we know that
31:14
was the tier. Something was happening on question who was
31:18
standing there? Answer? I believe Thomas. Question Thomas was inside
31:23
or was outside? Answer? I think he was inside the tier?
31:27
Question was anybody outside the tier? Answer? I think Noel
31:31
was outside the tier because usually the way Shoe works
31:34
is one officer is in the tier and one officer
31:37
is outside of the tier. With a key question and
31:40
out of the few people that came up in the elevator,
31:43
were you the first one in the room or was
31:45
there somebody else? Answer? I think Lieutenant redacted was there.
31:49
He was pretty much directing everybody what to do? Question
31:55
and you come in, you walk up the stairs from
31:57
L tier answer M tier. He was on M tier.
32:00
I think which is the top? No, it's ell tier. Yes.
32:05
Question and do you recall which cell it was? Answer
32:08
the first one as soon as you go into the tier.
32:11
Question So you go up there, you look in and
32:15
what is it that you see? Answer? What do I see? Epstein? Like? Uh?
32:21
Not tangible, like not moving, not doing anything. And then
32:25
everybody is like gathered around him, and when we tried
32:28
to move them to the stretcher, and then we started
32:31
working on him on the stretcher. Question was anyone performing
32:36
CPR when you walked in. Answer No, I don't believe so,
32:40
because I think they were trying to cut him down
32:42
before I got up there. I'm not saying I know
32:44
exactly what happened, but I'm pretty sure that they were
32:47
cutting him down because he did have some stuff wrapped
32:49
around him, So I think that's what happened. Question, so
32:52
describe it. What was he wearing? Answer? Uhuh. Question. I
32:57
know it's kind of tough, but answer. He had his
33:01
orange boxers and an orange T shirt. I don't know
33:03
if he had socks on or not. Question So he
33:06
had orange boxers and he had an orange T shirt on.
33:09
Answer yes. Question and what else did he have on him? Answer?
33:15
I think whatever he wrapped around him, they were trying
33:17
to cut that off and move that out of the way. Question,
33:20
so was it around his neck? Answer? When I got there,
33:23
I didn't see. I can't tell you what was wrapped
33:26
around him, But when I did see him, I did
33:29
see his neck was a little bit bruise though. Question
33:32
Did he have anything on his head, headphones, anything like that?
33:35
Do you recall? Answer not that I recall. No. Question
33:39
And then where was he laying when you walked in. Answer.
33:42
I think it was by the time I got in there,
33:45
they were moving him and it was just get the
33:47
stretcher and the AED question okay, and CPR was done
33:52
and then he was taken out. Answer. We were working
33:55
on him, and then medical came up and kept working
33:58
on him, and then we took him downstair. Question do
34:01
you recall how many mattresses were on the floor if
34:03
there were any? Answer? I don't recall. Question okay, is
34:07
there anything about when you walked in that stood out
34:10
to you about that cell? Answer? No, nothing really distinctive,
34:14
just to shoe sell. Question and you mentioned you saw bruising.
34:19
Where did you see the bruising? Answer around his neck?
34:22
Question on all sides or just one side? Answer? I
34:25
think around all sides? Question okay. And after they took
34:28
him to medical did you follow them down? Answer? Yeah,
34:33
it was me and redacted. We were doing chess compressions
34:35
on him until the second floor, and then we were
34:38
in medical and redacted was making his phone calls and notifications.
34:42
And I don't know if redacted gave him a shot,
34:44
but we had to keep working on him. Question redacted
34:48
is in medical? Answer and the medical guy and then
34:53
they tried to give him an AAD machine upstairs and
34:55
it didn't work. And I think the AAD machine was
34:58
still working on him when we took him down stairs.
35:00
We were still pumping his chest. Question and after the
35:04
medical office was he brought to the hospital? Answer that
35:08
part I don't know about. After all that happened, I
35:11
just knew that everything was short staffed, and since I
35:13
came in to do my job, there was nobody in custody.
35:16
So after all that, I went up the special housing
35:18
unit and I worked there for about an hour. Question
35:22
so you went back to the shoe? Answer? Yeah, question
35:25
what did you do? Answer? Settled inmate population down. They
35:29
get a little rowdy when they see stuff happen and
35:32
don't know what's going on, So you've got to just
35:34
kind of do custody work. Question who was in the
35:37
shoe when you were up there? Answer it was me,
35:39
Lieutenant redacted. I believe she came up from somewhere. Lieutenant
35:43
redacted was there, and the officer Noel was there. Question
35:48
she was still there? Answer yes, Question what was she doing?
35:51
Answer she just looked a little disheveled, like she didn't
35:54
know what was going on. Just stressed because that was
35:57
her first suicide. So when you see something like that,
36:00
kind of don't know how you would react. Question did
36:03
you talk to her about it? Answer? I don't believe
36:05
so I just kind of let her do her thing,
36:08
and I just had to get to because they were
36:09
feeding in the morning time, so you have to, you know,
36:12
try to settle everything down. Question when you got up
36:16
there and initially, do you recall a officer Michael Thomas
36:20
or Noel Tovin Noel made any statements, any comments to
36:25
the lieutenant. Answer? I don't really recall. It was like
36:28
a mess. I don't really know what was said. Question
36:32
did you assist redacted in giving out food? Answer? Yes?
36:36
Question were you in the same tier with them when
36:39
she handed out the food? Answer yes. Question do you
36:42
recall any interaction between her and the inmates? Answer? There
36:46
was a lot of things saying inmates said that were heard.
36:49
Not right. Question, so what kind of stuff did the
36:52
inmates say? Answer? You killed them? What they said? You
36:56
killed them? You weren't making rounds. You killed them, You
36:59
weren't making you guys got to get a new job.
37:02
You guys are done. A lot of fuck you this
37:05
your mother that you know, it was just gets caught
37:08
off by the investigator. Did redacted say anything back to them? Answer?
37:12
I don't believe so. I don't know what she said
37:14
to the inmates. Like like I said, it was just
37:17
I don't know what was said back and forth. Question
37:21
do you recall if any comments were made about providing
37:23
an alibi for the CEOs? Answer no, I don't believe so.
37:26
Question anything else on that the other investigator a lot.
37:33
So we'll just go in reverse order. So when you
37:35
said you killed them? Who killed them? Answer? They like
37:39
the officers killed Depstein? Question did they were they referring
37:43
to any specific officer? Answer the officers that were up
37:46
there Thomas and Nowell. Question so they were saying that
37:49
they killed them? Answer, yeah, you guys killed them. Question
37:53
And did they say anything specifically about that? Answer? No,
37:57
they was just they were upset, so they were just
38:00
saying it. But they didn't say how. Question did anyone
38:03
say he gets cut off? They didn't say that they
38:05
went in the cells to try to kill him or
38:07
open the grill. They just said, you guys killed them?
38:11
Question And what was did you ask any follow up
38:13
questions with regard to that? Answer? I just know not
38:17
to say anything, so I just do what I have
38:19
to do and I don't get involved in that question
38:22
Did they provide any other information with regard to you
38:25
when they were saying someone killed them? Answer just that
38:28
they didn't do rounds. That was pretty much about it.
38:32
Question Did they say anything more about not doing rounds
38:35
or just said that they didn't do any rounds? Or
38:37
what did they say about that? Answer? They didn't do
38:40
any rounds. They were sitting there all night. I don't
38:42
think they came over here once. Question They said they
38:45
came over once. Answer they never came They never did
38:49
any rounds. Question they said they never did one. Answer
38:53
no question, Oh so they never did one? Answer yeah,
38:58
question is that what you mean? Answer yeah? Question okay.
39:01
Did they mention when the round stopped? Answer no question, No,
39:06
all right, you said that when you came back it
39:08
was Tovin, Nowell and yourself, just the three of you.
39:11
Answer yes, I believe so. Question was Thomas already gone? Then?
39:15
Answer yes? All right. Folks, We're gonna wrap this bad
39:18
boy up right here, and in the next episode we're
39:20
gonna pick up where we left off. All the information
39:24
that goes with this episode can be found in the
39:27
description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode
39:31
of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna dive
39:34
right back in to the interview given by the unnamed
39:38
lieutenant from MCC to the OIG investigators. Question, Okay, do
39:44
all CEOs who work in the shoe know how to
39:46
properly conduct and report counts and rounds? Answer? I'm not sure.
39:50
Question should they know how to do counts and rounds? Answer? Yeah?
39:55
Question and how should they know? Answer training? Question? And
40:00
do you think everyone there got enough training to know
40:02
had to do account and a round? Answer? Yeah. Question
40:06
did you ever hear of people like filling out count
40:08
slips or round sheets either before or at the very
40:11
start of their shift for their entire shift or at
40:14
the end of the shift for their entire shift? Answer
40:17
not before this incident? Question did you hear about that
40:21
after the incident? Answer? Yeah? Question what did you hear
40:24
about that? Answer that they didn't count? I mean it
40:28
was filling out slips, it wasn't counted making the rounds.
40:32
Question And who was it that you heard that wasn't
40:35
conducting counts and rounds? Answer Thomas and Noel. Question anybody
40:40
else in there. Answer no. Question. Did you hear anything
40:44
about counts and rounds not being conducted prior to midnight
40:47
on August tenth? So any time on August ninth? Did
40:50
you hear about any of those counts and rounds not
40:53
being conducted? Answer on the morning watch? Then answer anytime
40:58
on August ninth, so this date. Answer no question even
41:02
after the fact, you never heard about, like the ten
41:04
pm count or the four pm count the count's not
41:08
being conducted. Answer no question you haven't heard that. Answer no,
41:12
I don't know, not that I know of some what
41:16
counts on these days? Question yeah? Answer no, you have
41:22
the four pm count, you have the ten count? Yeah,
41:24
the midnight count? Yeah? Question right, So what I'm asking
41:28
did you hear that indiscernible wasn't done? Answer no question.
41:34
Now do lieutenants sign the counts or the rounds? Answer
41:38
the rounds, not the counts. Question So what's the lieutenant's
41:42
responsibility for signing the round sheet? Answer making sure that
41:46
they're in compliance with the policy? Question all right, and
41:50
do they have to Is there any way for them
41:52
to verify if the rounds were actually done? Answer no,
41:57
unless you're doing or checking a video. Question you just
42:01
is what you do is just make sure that it's
42:04
actually filled out. Answer correctly, question correctly filled out? All right,
42:09
I'm going to I apologize for this. It's gotten a
42:12
little longer. So I'm going to show you what is
42:15
this that I'm showing you. Answer it's a round sheet?
42:18
Question all right? And what's the round sheet from? Answer
42:22
the ninth? Question the ninth did you have anything well
42:26
as the activities, lieutenant, would you have had anything to
42:29
do with signing off on any of these? Answer? Yeah?
42:32
Question which ones would have you signed off on? Answer?
42:36
Day watch? Question? Okay? And are you on that? Did
42:40
you sign any of that? Answer? Yeah? Question where's your signature?
42:44
Answer on the day shift? So the other investigator pipes in,
42:49
so that's your actual signature answer? Yeah, Question is that
42:53
from the shoe answer? Yeah? Question who else sign that?
42:57
Answer the officer question? Which officer? Answer? I'm not sure.
43:01
Question you can't tell by looking at that answer? No, question,
43:05
all right? And around what time would of you sign that?
43:09
Do you know? Answer? Sometime on my shift? Question? All right?
43:13
So does that indicate that you would have then conducted
43:16
around in the shoe answer I'm not sure. Question would
43:20
you have signed that in the shoe. Answer honestly, I'm
43:23
not sure. Question how else would have you gotten it? Answer?
43:27
I'm not sure. Question, So is the shoe sheet ever
43:31
sent outside of the shoe for the lieutenants to sign?
43:34
Answer I'm not sure. I can't recall on this day. Question,
43:39
But what I'm asking is like, have you ever signed
43:41
one of these round sheets outside of the shoe? Answer
43:45
I'm not sure. Question? Or is it typically that the
43:49
lieutenant would sign the sheet and the shoe because aren't
43:51
they maintained in the shoe? Answer? Typically that's what would happen.
43:55
Question So typically you would have signed this in the
43:58
shoe correct answer? Yeah. Question would you have signed this
44:02
after the last one was filled out? I'm assuming they
44:04
wouldn't fill one out after you signed it, would they? Answer?
44:08
I'm not sure. Question, So this one says two five
44:11
to two oh seven. Wouldn't that typically mean that you
44:14
would have been there at least till two Answer I'm
44:18
not sure. Question, But looking at this document, does that
44:21
indicate to you that if you signed it, you would
44:24
have signed it? Do you ever sign are these continued
44:27
to be filled out after? Sorry after lieutenant signs it? Answer? Yeah?
44:32
Question so even for day watch right here. Answer yeah,
44:36
question so you can sign it at any point during
44:39
this and then they continue to fill it out. Answer yeah,
44:43
question all right, And that's what I'm asking. How does
44:46
that work? I don't know, so I'm asking answer. I mean,
44:50
it's eight hours. Question, so at any point from eight
44:53
am until basically to two oh seven pm, you could
44:56
have signed that answer yes, question okay, And these are
45:00
genuine questions. They're not to trick you. Answer No, I understand,
45:05
but it does seem like that is what I'm saying.
45:08
That's what I'm saying, like he gets cut off by
45:11
the investigator. I promise you. I'm just asking like, this
45:15
isn't like an I gotcha moment. There's no I gotcha
45:19
moments in this. This is just asking for your like
45:22
your recollection on this answer. Yeah, I understand that, but
45:26
that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I
45:29
don't know when I signed it. Question all right, And
45:33
that's so what I'm asking you, like, is this something
45:35
typically that you would have done? And again it's not
45:38
a gotcha answer yeah, but again I'm not sure question.
45:43
It's just a genuine so you don't know. But so
45:46
most of the time. I mean, these are maintained in
45:48
the shoe. And this is again, this is our learning
45:53
experience by talking to people like you lieutenants that were there.
45:56
It's again not an I gotcha. It's trying to figure
45:59
out how does the process work? Answer? But also, I'm
46:03
not trying to incriminate myself or nothing. That's what I'm saying.
46:07
I'm not sure question. But what I'm asking, I guess
46:11
is I don't even know what there would be to
46:13
incriminate you with. But like what I'm asking is, like,
46:16
how does the process work if you give this person
46:19
a round sheet? Are these round sheets signed in the shoe?
46:23
Answer typically? Question typically all right? And are you aware
46:27
of them ever not being signed in the shoe? Answer
46:30
not that I know of. Question all right, So at
46:33
least more likely than not, you sign this document in
46:36
the shoe at some point between eight and two PM.
46:39
Answer yeah, question, so that means you probably did a
46:43
round in there. Answer yeah, question all right, And if
46:46
it was between eight and two both redacted and Epstein
46:50
were not in their cells at the time. Correct answer, Okay, question,
46:55
I mean, this isn't like again and I gotcha. I'm
46:58
just trying to figure out, like where you fall in
47:01
this whole thing? Answer. So that's what I'm saying, to
47:05
figure out where do I fall into this whole thing? Answer?
47:08
Because this is your idea. That's what where we're talking
47:12
to you, just specifically about all right, redacted was gone
47:15
at some point, he goes wab. We don't know. He
47:19
gets cut off by the lieutenant. So you're trying to
47:21
say who's to blame for it? The other investigator pipes in, Well,
47:25
it's just trying to figure out what happened. We've got
47:28
to talk to he gets cut off by the lieutenant,
47:31
he left, and that's what happened. Question right? And you
47:36
when you were there, there was no conversation that you
47:39
had with anyone. Answer? No conspiracy, No, it's not he
47:43
gets cut off by the investigator. No, no, no, we're
47:45
not asking for a conspiracy. It's just we need to
47:49
know who what conversations happened? Where where did he gets
47:53
cut off by the lieutenant. I didn't know nothing about
47:56
it until after I saw it in the news. Question
48:00
and this is also me showing you this now is
48:03
more letting you know, like, Okay, that looks like you
48:06
probably were there. Does that help spark recollection. Answer. I
48:11
had no conversation with neither one of them that day,
48:13
not that I recall. Question none of them that day? Answer? No,
48:17
question all right? Can you tell does this look like
48:20
an RSC to you? Answer? I don't know who signature
48:25
that is? Question all right? So on day watch there
48:28
was an S redacted, P, redacted, M. Redacted as well
48:33
as redacted. Does that look like any of these people
48:36
to you? Answer? Hmm, I'm not sure. Question all right,
48:40
So you don't recall and as we go, do you
48:43
mind just initialing or whatever? Okay, you got those two,
48:46
If you don't mind initially this, this and this now,
48:50
although this is voluntary, I guess we do have to
48:52
just make sure we know. It also has to be
48:54
the answers were truthful. You're under oath, so that also
48:58
so lack of candor can also be constituted by not
49:02
providing full information or like hiding information. Answer No, if
49:07
I remember, it'll and I don't hide anything. But if
49:10
I remember, then I will say it. Question okay, answer,
49:14
but when you come with these saying it looks like hey,
49:18
by the way, yeah, And if I'm like, I know
49:21
im being that day, I know it's a big profile case. Hey,
49:25
let's get such and such they fill this and then
49:28
he gets caught off by the investigator. Yeah. Yeah, and
49:31
we just need to know, like, as you know, we've
49:33
got to make sure that like, hey, what do you remember?
49:37
What can you tell us? It's voluntary? But all right,
49:40
so these I'm going to give you the count slips
49:43
from August ninth up until midnight of August tenth. And
49:47
is it your understanding that ZA on the count slip
49:50
that stands for the shoe answer? Yeah, question? All right,
49:54
can you just kind of look through those I'm going
49:56
to move this aside for you so the papers don't
49:58
get kind of mixed up. Actually, I'm just going to
50:01
give them back to you, hands them to somebody else. Answer,
50:06
So I look for what question? So when we initial
50:12
these things, it's just to say that we showed you. Answer, okay. Question.
50:16
It's not to say that you're certifying anything or that
50:19
you received anything. It's a document we place in you.
50:23
This is what we do for everybody. We ask them
50:26
to initial and date this, and it's just that today
50:29
while we're talking to you, this is in fact the
50:31
document that we're talking about. Answer, Okay, question. And it's
50:37
not certifying its accuracy. It's not saying you saw it
50:40
before today. It's simply to say that's the document that
50:44
we're discussing right now. Answer, and I'm looking for this
50:50
for He gets cut off. Question So I look at
50:54
the zas starting So what is this one that I
50:58
gave you? Answer? So this is ninth at five oh two? Question?
51:03
So five am answer? Five am question. Okay, So I
51:09
give you the five am count on the ninth Can
51:11
you just take a look at the numbers you can
51:13
look at that. Is that that's this first page called
51:17
Is that E one? Answer? Yeah? Question all right, So
51:21
look at the E one and then look at the
51:23
count slip for ZA. So when you're looking at E one,
51:26
just make note of what is the number that says
51:29
on the E one and then go back to probably
51:31
the last page, maybe the second to last page for
51:34
each and look at the ZA number to make sure
51:37
that it matches with what E one shows. And I
51:40
just want you to do that for this one. He
51:44
gets cut off by the lieutenant. You said the E
51:47
one and what question? The E one and the count
51:49
slip for ZA. Answer? The count slips are in the back.
51:53
Question should be either the last or the second to
51:56
last page. Answer where it's five in the morning. Question,
52:01
that's five in the morning on the ninth. So what
52:04
do those numbers show? Answer in ZA? Question? Yeah, answer
52:08
so seventy seven? Question does it say both of them?
52:12
Seventy seven? Answer? On the E one? Yeah, question all right? Cool?
52:17
Now can you initial undate that and move it aside? Again,
52:20
these are and I gotcha moments. These just help us
52:23
explain some stuff. All right, So this E one, well,
52:27
can you tell me what it says for the ZA
52:29
on this one? And this is what the five pm count?
52:32
What is this? Answer? Yeah? Four pm? Question four pm?
52:37
I mean answer it's four pm count. But yeah, so
52:41
that ZA is seventy five. Question seventy five. And the
52:45
last one was what does that say? Answer seventy five?
52:49
Question all right, seventy five? Cool? Can you just initial
52:52
that and put that on the side and you'll understand
52:55
the question after you look at these. And again, it's
52:58
not a gotcha, it's to help us explain something, all right.
53:02
Answer what's y'all trying to explain? Though? Question? The count
53:05
changes and I'm going to ask you how you can
53:09
if there's a way for you to be able to
53:11
figure out how this count changed. All right, you can
53:13
look at the e one here and compare it to
53:15
the count slip back there. What is this the ten
53:19
pm count on August ninth? Answer, yeah, seventy three. Question
53:23
seventy three on both? And is there a count? What
53:27
does the count slip say something weird on that one? Answer? No,
53:31
I'm just looking at seven. Question Does it say like
53:33
seventy three plus one on there? Answer? Oh, yeah, it does.
53:36
Question have you ever seen a plus one on any before?
53:40
Or could you understand a reason why someone will put
53:43
plus one? Answer a plus one? No, I don't know
53:46
about a plus one. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap
53:49
up right here, and in the next episode dealing with
53:51
the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.
53:54
All the information that goes with this episode can be
53:57
found in the description box.