Latest / Drive with John Perlman / Elections in South Africa: young people feel are alienated

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Elections in South Africa: young people feel are alienated · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: Drive home with John Perlman on 702. Let's walk the talk.
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  Speaker 2: Well, let's get into that very issue then. And welcome
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  Speaker 2: to 702 Drive, Tandi van Heeningen. She is a senior
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  Speaker 2: researcher in the Justice and Violence Prevention Program at the
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  Speaker 2: Institute for Security Studies.
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  Speaker 1: Ms.
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  Speaker 2: Van Haningen, welcome and thanks very much for giving us
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  Speaker 2: your time. I've got in front of me a really
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  Speaker 2: interesting piece that was put out on the issafrica.org site.
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  Speaker 2: Really recommend people read this. You distinguish, and in fact,
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  Speaker 2: you contrast directly between apathy, which is what young people
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  Speaker 2: are often accused of, and what you call alienation. Tell
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  Speaker 2: us why the distinction and why you made it. Good
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  Speaker 2: afternoon to you.
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  Speaker 1: Hi, good afternoon, John. Thanks so much for inviting me
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  Speaker 1: to share on this. Yeah, so I think that what
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  Speaker 1: we found, we conducted this research recently in two urban townships,
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  Speaker 1: one in Ekuleni and one in Etikwini. And what we
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  Speaker 1: found is that young people are not apathetic. They are
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  Speaker 1: feeling disconnected and disenfranchised, you know, not really heard. by
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  Speaker 1: the powers that be. And that is what's driving their
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  Speaker 1: frustration and, you know, perhaps what might be regarded as apathy.
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  Speaker 1: But actually what's underlying it is that they are feeling
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  Speaker 1: unheard and disconnected from decision-making and from the local government structures. So, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, that feeling... alienated from decision making could be
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  Speaker 2: something that, and I'm sure it does, affects older people
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  Speaker 2: as well. But you detail in your article that there's
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  Speaker 2: an underpinning that they're also alienated from any sense of
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  Speaker 2: life chances. You mentioned, yes, disconnected from government, but for example...
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  Speaker 2: You say as your number one point, an unfulfilled expectation
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  Speaker 2: that education will lead to employment. Say more about that,
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  Speaker 2: because this seems to have as its bedrock the way
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  Speaker 2: their own lives are going.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that is a heartbreaking finding in a way.
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  Speaker 1: And I mean, this this this. represented, this is not
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  Speaker 1: necessarily representative of all young South Africans, but what we
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  Speaker 1: found when we spoke to young people, and that's now
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  Speaker 1: between the ages of 18 and 35 in these areas,
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  Speaker 1: was that they are just very high, you know, as
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  Speaker 1: we know, high levels of unemployment, especially in the formal economy.
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  Speaker 1: And I think young people had, you know, there's a
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  Speaker 1: sense that they're more educated than they're and previous generations
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  Speaker 1: in that they've achieved higher levels of education, but that
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  Speaker 1: this doesn't or hasn't translated into employment for them. And
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  Speaker 1: I think, you know, there is an expectation when you
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  Speaker 1: are a young person that you're going to go to school,
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  Speaker 1: you're going to get your metric. Then if you're lucky
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  Speaker 1: or have opportunity, you might be able to attain a
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  Speaker 1: tertiary level of training or education and that that will
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  Speaker 1: open up doors for you in terms of finding a job,
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  Speaker 1: finding employment. And that hasn't necessarily been the case. So
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  Speaker 1: young people are finding that even with qualifications, they're really,
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  Speaker 1: really struggling to find work. And I think that they
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  Speaker 1: find that also at the local council level that what
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  Speaker 1: came through in these interviews was that young people are
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  Speaker 1: feeling like there's a bit of gatekeeping around opportunities and
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  Speaker 1: in their municipal areas around who can get access to
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  Speaker 1: opportunities and potentially be able to start their own businesses
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  Speaker 1: or provide services or anything like that. So there's that sense, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that came through.
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  Speaker 2: I wonder if you've got a take. I mean, not
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  Speaker 2: to necessarily expect you to be encyclopedic on all these
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  Speaker 2: different countries, but I was prompted to explore this on
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  Speaker 2: the show today. by a piece and the headline on it,
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  Speaker 2: The Guardian online, a global political awakening, how Gen Z
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  Speaker 2: protests are sweeping the world. In Serbia, for example, they
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  Speaker 2: built a student movement that actually changed the government in Bangladesh,
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  Speaker 2: virtually on the other side of the world. Street protests,
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  Speaker 2: not electoral politics, got rid of the head of state
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  Speaker 2: in Brazil. Most people are saying that when there was
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  Speaker 2: a runoff for who should be that country's president, the
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  Speaker 2: mobilization of young people tipped the balance in favor of
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  Speaker 2: the incumbent Lula. And there are literally examples from every
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  Speaker 2: continent and every corner of the planet. Do you have
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  Speaker 2: a sense of why it's happening there and it's not
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  Speaker 2: happening here?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think this is very exciting
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  Speaker 1: to note. And I think that young people in South Africa,
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  Speaker 1: and especially those that I did speak to, or we did, we,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't speak to them personally, but we spoke to
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  Speaker 1: our field researchers. They are actively, you know, engaged in
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  Speaker 1: community-based movements and You know, some of them are, you know,
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  Speaker 1: quite actively involved in community policing forum. Some of them
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  Speaker 1: are working in health settings, acting as sort of health
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  Speaker 1: advocates between, you know, the Department of Health and people
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  Speaker 1: in the community. So there is a sense that young
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  Speaker 1: people are active. And of course, there are protests, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of protests in South Africa, the ISSD. has got
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  Speaker 1: a public violence protest monitor, actually, where we track all
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  Speaker 1: the community protests. And, you know, young people are involved
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  Speaker 1: in those. And that's actually what sparked the research is
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  Speaker 1: because we were trying to understand how and why young
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  Speaker 1: people are getting involved in community protests and what these
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  Speaker 1: are about and what's driving them. But, you know, whether
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  Speaker 1: it translates into massive change is yet to be seen.
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  Speaker 1: But I think young people have got ways of having
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  Speaker 1: their voices heard. It's just not necessarily through the vehicle
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  Speaker 1: of party politics, let's say. You know, it's in other ways.
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  Speaker 1: So it is exciting to see what's happening overseas, definitely.
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  Speaker 2: But I yeah yeah I mean it's very interesting you
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  Speaker 2: know I heard a phrase you you it's easier to
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  Speaker 2: create moments than movements and that's something can for example
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  Speaker 2: spark a protest but turning that into that is something
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  Speaker 2: that is has a sustained presence and an activity that's
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  Speaker 2: why I thought what happened in Serbia was very interesting
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  Speaker 2: because the moment was the collapse of a a station,
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  Speaker 2: I think, in one of the provincial towns that led
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  Speaker 2: to people dying. But not only did students protest, but
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  Speaker 2: they said, well, if we're going to make this stick,
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  Speaker 2: we've got to get rid of the government. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: how does that change? Because young people, almost by circumstantial definition,
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  Speaker 2: don't have many of the levers that would enable them
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  Speaker 2: to create movements, and yet they have.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there are movements in South Africa that
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  Speaker 1: are led by young people, and by that I mean
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  Speaker 1: people under the age of 35. I'm thinking of some
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  Speaker 1: of the anti-foreigner movements that seem to have exerted quite
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  Speaker 1: an influence in terms of you know, mobilizing people and
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  Speaker 1: getting the government to perhaps act on certain things. I often,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not sure, I'm not an expert on
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  Speaker 1: this particular thing, but I wonder if it's also, you know,
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  Speaker 1: there are a lot of other issues that young people
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  Speaker 1: are dealing with or grappling with, and perhaps also there
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  Speaker 1: needs to be more of a cohesiveness amongst young people.
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  Speaker 1: Perhaps there's still, you know, quite a lot of division.
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  Speaker 1: And so young people are not seen as one particular body,
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  Speaker 1: if that makes sense.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm speaking, trying to think of it from
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  Speaker 1: a psychological point of view as well. Yeah, that maybe
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  Speaker 1: there's more of a, what's the word, when people are,
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  Speaker 1: you know, more of a sameness in a country like Serbia,
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  Speaker 1: there's not such a heterogeneous population. society as we have
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  Speaker 1: here in South Africa with such a lot of diversity.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's a very, very interesting thing to explore. And thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Tandi van Heeningen joining us from the Institute for Security Studies.
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  Speaker 2: Check out her piece on their website, iss.org.za. Some reflections
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  Speaker 2: of surveys they did with young South Africans ahead of
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  Speaker 2: the elections. I said issafrica.org.za, but it's actually issafrica.org. You'll
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  Speaker 2: track them down, Institute for Security Studies, and go onto
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  Speaker 2: the Guardian website and read this piece about a very,
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  Speaker 2: very different picture in other parts of the world. It's
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  Speaker 2: intriguing and full of some very interesting ideas that you
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  Speaker 2: might enjoy stretching your own thinking on this issue. 7.02 drive,
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  Speaker 2: it's two minutes to five.