Latest / The Horsehuman Connection Matrix / Kimberly Dunn part 1.0

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Kimberly Dunn part 1.0 · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:01
  This is the Horse Human Connection, a captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning, horse training.
• 0:10
  and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures.
• 0:15
  Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses.
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  The Horse Human Connection is an idea, a place, and a voice.
• 0:30
  The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse.
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  The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift.
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  The Voice is this podcast.
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  Welcome to today's episode.
• 0:53
  Good morning.
• 0:54
  Welcome to the Horse Human Connection.
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  This is Ishi Abel.
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  I have Kimberly Dunn with Get Grounded with me this morning.
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  And we're going to ask her some questions about what she does, and her philosophies about horses and some of her experiences.
• 1:08
  Welcome, Kimberly.
• 1:10
  Hi there.
• 1:11
  Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:12
  I'm really excited to chat with you.
• 1:16
  Me too, Kimberly.
• 1:17
  I'm going to jump right in with the first question that I have here.
• 1:20
  I'd just like to know for our audience a brief history of, what you do and how you came to be a relationship based horse trainer and you breed also fell ponies.
• 1:31
  And how many years you've been doing this?
• 1:35
  Yeah, so, you know, relationship based horse training is definitely not a common mode of training.
• 1:45
  In this day and age, and it is a growing type of mindset and the formulating of that mindset for me has been a long journey.
• 1:54
  And certainly there are things all the way going back to my childhood and young adult life that have contributed to that.
• 2:02
  But I could share a few pivotal moments that really set me on that journey.
• 2:09
  And, I had the opportunity, way back 2006, 2007 to be involved in a equine related activity called Mountain Trail, and that involves working over different types of trail related obstacles in a technical way, and it, it really encompasses a lot of well rounded horsemanship, Thank you And that seemed to be a place because I was doing it at a competitive level, but that seemed to be a place that it was fairly acceptable to be working in this way with my feet on the ground and not necessarily on the back of a horse.
• 2:50
  And so that afforded me years of practice of doing these kind of technical things and navigating this way.
• 3:00
  And sharing the experience with the horse.
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  And so that was the beginning of it.
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  And I will say, you know, when you, when you start spending time in that way, solving problems, going somewhere.
• 3:15
  Navigating obstacles puts you in a different mindset and you begin to see things differently when, and I call it eye level, being at eye level.
• 3:25
  Of course, there's a lot of layers, right, to, to that kind of mindset.
• 3:29
  But in about 2007, I had a traumatic experience where I was trail riding a gelding that I had a.
• 3:38
  Thought I had a really good relationship with and without going into detail, it ended up traumatically in that he reared up severely and landed on me.
• 3:50
  And that was a moment where I had to really rethink, you know, what am I doing?
• 3:55
  What is this all about?
• 3:56
  How did I end up in this place?
• 3:59
  And I wanted to stay connected to this horse.
• 4:03
  And because I knew I could do things at eye level I wanted to explore that more with him because riding him wasn't an option.
• 4:12
  I needed to figure out what was going on.
• 4:14
  Why did he rear?
• 4:17
  And that led me to miles and miles and miles and miles of hiking with him out in nature, in the woods.
• 4:26
  And, and doing a lot of in hand work with him and through that process my whole frame of mind changed, began to change and which opened up the door for me to ask questions about how I'm interacting with him.
• 4:43
  What's my relationship with him?
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  What can it look like?
• 4:47
  And that led to a few years later, exploring working at Liberty where I'm minimal with my mechanical aids and giving the horse more and more voice.
• 5:01
  And in, in what we're doing and how we're doing it.
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  And so many lessons happened along the way.
• 5:08
  And just through that process, that opening up the door, that what I do doesn't have to look like what the mainstream is doing allowed me to express and explore through more creative processes and Thoughtful engagements that felt more meaningful for both of us.
• 5:32
  So you talk a little bit about while you were hiking, putting all these miles hiking with this horse that it sounds like you're seeing some of your belief systems shifted.
• 5:42
  Is there any more specifics about that?
• 5:44
  Were there a couple of beliefs that you just gave up or some new stuff came in?
• 5:51
  aBsolutely.
• 5:52
  Yeah, I began.
• 5:53
  I think probably overall I began to as I was experiencing the navigation closer in a way that the horse was so by me having my feet on the ground, and I'm having to try to figure out how to get my body over the log or through the water or around this obstacle.
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  anD how can I do it with him?
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  was quite a game changer in my mindset because everything up until that point was kind of more of a dictator type mindset of what can you do for me?
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  How can you make me feel like I'm okay?
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  How?
• 6:41
  And it shifted more to how can we be okay together?
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  How can we do these things together?
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  So it's got a real.
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  Shift to a mutualistic kind of, of mindset where I felt more joy.
• 6:57
  I felt more peace when I was focused on how we could find that together.
• 7:04
  Did you find that the horse felt like he was helping, like the horse would assist and be right in there with the partnership with you, taking care of you on the ground as well?
• 7:16
  Yeah, and not only that, help me understand the perceptions and the sensory processing of him, so help me understand him better how he uses scenting, how he's using his visual hearing, all of that it made me more aware of his breathing and how the breathing changes, how his body position changes.
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  I could see his eye much easier.
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  So it afforded me a lot of time to really get to know his micro expressions.
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  And how he was processing, the context, whatever it was we were in so that we could be more homogenous with each other.
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  We could synchronize better with each other.
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  And once you start doing that kind of work and you see how much flow there is and effortlessness that can happen from those experiences you find yourself wanting more.
• 8:18
  A lot more of that intuitive kind of behavior and engagement and a lot of the sort of experiences that were being offered in the mainstream just became less and less interesting to me.
• 8:32
  Yeah, I can, I can totally see that I've experienced similar things.
• 8:36
  I'm, I'm even guessing that if we knew the neuroscience of what was happening at those moments that.
• 8:43
  It might be the oxytocin release that happens when you're bonding and really in trust with another being.
• 8:51
  Yeah, you know, that's a really good point that you touch on there about you're touching on chemical brain pieces that happen through different experiences.
• 9:02
  And I would agree that there are things that we, we can do on the ground when we do them together and we're both doing them.
• 9:11
  thAt have a lot of bonding capabilities at the chemical brain level, right?
• 9:17
  And I know from all of this time I've spent on the ground with, with equines this way that I really began to see that movement and synchronized movement was a bonding practice for horses.
• 9:37
  Okay, so I began to really emphasize not in a dictator way, but more of I'm going to move with you.
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  So sometimes you're directing where we go and how the movement looks.
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  And then sometimes I am.
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  And so it's mutual understanding of we're moving together.
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  Our feet are moving together.
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  And I, I could see that the horse was really paying attention to my footfall and even my body position in relationship to them.
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  If I was consistent with that, it, it had meaning for them.
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  And I think that's very comforting, you know, whenever we can understand each other better.
• 10:19
  It brings us comfort, right?
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  And we can relax and I repeatedly, cause this, this guy wasn't the only guy I hiked.
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  I got, I got really infected by this disease.
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  Let me tell you where I was hiking everybody and everything.
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  And I still am, you know, and it becomes very infectious and the layers of discovery that happen in that process, just for me so far, endless.
• 10:47
  And it translates when you do ride, is that correct?
• 10:50
  It does.
• 10:51
  Yes, absolutely.
• 10:53
  It does translate.
• 10:54
  And I will say that in formal training for me, I found a nice bridge that is still on the ground, but looking more like me on, on the horse's back.
• 11:09
  And that's double line driving or long line driving type work.
• 11:14
  So quite often in my training with horses, actually all the time I'm going to start out hiking with them and doing liberty with them so that we can kind of get that synchronicity, get that rapport, right?
• 11:27
  And then I want them to start thinking about how this will transfer up.
• 11:33
  With me on their back, and I found that the long line work is critical for that it is the bridge that as far as I can see, that starts getting to them to think about, okay, you are now in front of me, right?
• 11:50
  Because when I'm on their back, literally, they are in front of me, right?
• 11:54
  And and then getting a sense of, Feel through the lines through those communication lines, which are the reins and letting the horse see, you know, this isn't about control necessarily.
• 12:08
  It's about guidance and communication and that bridge ends up really setting the horse up for success to where when then I sit on their back, all they have to now think about is.
• 12:24
  The experience of this live weight that's moving on top of them, and they've got this structure, this foundation of all this stuff we did.
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  this meaningful stuff we did when I was at eye level and it quite often becomes very fluid and very effortless.
• 12:43
  And, and also when you're behind them.
• 12:44
  So I want to make a distinction because the trainers I've worked with and lots of things that I've studied the sequence of.
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  Of gentling or old school breaking a horse, there is long lining and working behind them.
• 12:58
  But what, from what I've seen in trainers, usually it's a day or two.
• 13:03
  And during those day or two sessions, it might be 10 minutes or half an hour.
• 13:08
  But I think what you're talking about is taking them out on the trail with the long lining.
• 13:12
  Is that correct?
• 13:14
  Yes, yes, that's a really good point.
• 13:16
  No, I don't rush over that.
• 13:18
  I spend a very substantial amount of time in that bridge mode between hiking at the shoulder eye level to moving myself further behind where they're moving in front of me forward it could be it could be weeks up to over a month.
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  Of me doing that.
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  So we're talking lots of hours of doing that.
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  And I'm going to provide in that moment.
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  That bridge moment where we're going to experience everything we can possibly think of before I get on their back.
• 13:56
  so We're going to cross water.
• 13:58
  We're going to do a lot of technical stuff.
• 14:00
  We're going to discover our how our feet can navigate through this space.
• 14:04
  And then in a lot of different contexts, right?
• 14:08
  No, two trails are the same.
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  And as a matter of fact, the same trail can vary from day to day.
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  So I want to spend a lot of time in that bridge moment before I cross over to fully backing.
• 14:23
  That makes, that makes a lot of sense.
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  So I know most trainers.
• 14:28
  Traditionally, we'll put 30 or 90 days on a horse and then send it back to the owner.
• 14:34
  And if I'm not mistaken, at one point you participated in some of this, but you've really moved away from that philosophy because you've seen it doesn't work.
• 14:42
  Is that, is that accurate?
• 14:45
  Yeah.
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  I mean, from my perspective, there's just a lot of room for failure with that kind of model.
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  And there's a lot of pressure.
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  On the trainer as well as the horse and I understand.
• 14:57
  I get it.
• 14:58
  You know, I'm, I'm taking money from people and I'm trying to provide a product if you will, for lack of better word.
• 15:05
  And I had to get away from that mindset that I was producing a product that I'm, that I'm nurturing and developing quite often a young mind.
• 15:17
  And I'm feeling the responsibility of how that individual horse sees me and sees people overall.
• 15:29
  So I'm framing, attitudes.
• 15:33
  I'm working with emotions.
• 15:35
  I'm working with, communication and that all takes time, you know, to develop those things because I want the horse to walk away from their time with me feeling really good and feeling, feeling really heard about their learning readiness.
• 15:56
  And that's a good point right there is just talking about learning readiness, you know, how many kids do we know if we want to talk about people and learning all fit into the same time frame of really absorbing, you know, we all have differences on that.
• 16:14
  And we have to, we have to acknowledge that.
• 16:16
  With our equines, the relationship based training that you're describing sounds a lot like parenting, which is a far cry from what a lot of traditional horse training is right because relationship based training is focused on, a more holistic viewpoint.
• 16:38
  Or perspective, meaning that I have to, as a relationship based trainer, I have to think about the emotions, the physical abilities and limitations, the comprehension, the learning style I want understanding and I would like to think most parents want their kids to understand why they're doing things and have a good mindset about it rather than just do it because if they don't, they're going to get in trouble and it sounds like a difference between.
• 17:12
  enacting obedience through through repetition versus developing a relationship and teaching them to think on their own, where they can participate in a relationship and make decisions that may mean the horse is taking care of the rider in certain situations and vice versa.
• 17:28
  Correct.
• 17:29
  Absolutely.
• 17:30
  Yeah.
• 17:31
  There is a, a prevailing Misbelief that we don't want horses to bring their cognition into the picture or the experience.
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  We just want obedience and they want them, we want them to respond to our cues and our aids and just do what we say.
• 17:51
  So we want this like blind trust.
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  In us, and I find it more rewarding to bring out and give permission and space for the cognition of the horse.
• 18:04
  And quite often, I find they end up teaching me stuff that I needed to learn when I was willing to.
• 18:13
  You know, let that guard down if you will and and sort of let go of that control that I feel like a lot of people need.
• 18:22
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:22
  There's so much they have to teach us if we're willing to participate in a way that they have a voice and have opportunity.
• 18:31
  I absolutely agree with you.
• 18:33
  Are there some other myths that you feel exist in the equine community that create more misunderstanding and conflict?
• 18:43
  That come to mind, other like narratives.
• 18:48
  Yeah, you know, a big part of my work now is really questioning prevailing narratives that exist in the equine community.
• 18:58
  And the one on work and the clinics I teach are more focused on, let's really think about what are we, what are we doing and why are we doing it?
• 19:09
  And because I've spent a lot of time thinking about the stories, the narratives.
• 19:16
  there's layers of it, right?
• 19:18
  So we have these big categories, I call them grand narratives, and I'll give you a couple of examples a grand narrative would be this belief that the pathway to a working relationship with a horse is Is not going to formulate unless we use trauma based ritual type practices.
• 19:49
  So there is a prevailing belief that we utilize traumatic type methods to create this pathway.
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  And then there's all kinds of sub.
• 20:02
  Myths that happen under that big grand belief, right?
• 20:05
  So that belief leads us to think that we, you know, we have to round pen and we have to get risk, you know, we have to get respect and what does it look like and, and so on and so forth.
• 20:16
  So lots of sub stuff that happens under that grand.
• 20:21
  erroneous thinking.
• 20:25
  Yeah, one of those examples that comes to mind for me is this idea that if you bring the horse up and get them more afraid of you than they could possibly be of anything else and then come down with them, that there's a form of regulation that takes place.
• 20:40
  But really all you've done is activated all this cortisol and adrenaline in them and then waited for them to come down.
• 20:46
  And it's, it's a form of Of neurochemical manipulation that really isn't necessary.
• 20:53
  And it sounds like that's kind of what you're talking about that that fits into that framework of of this narrative that that really doesn't fit and may do more harm than good.
• 21:07
  Yeah, let me give you an example with people that maybe help explain.
• 21:12
  I don't know if you're familiar.
• 21:13
  I, I'm sure most people have heard about the practice of hazing um, and we see it in academia with people who join fraternities and sororities that we have this tradition that's expected of.
• 21:28
  Hazing and it was accepted.
• 21:34
  I know for me back when I was in college and then in the nineties it wasn't anything that I was interested in or necessarily wanted to participate in, but I knew it existed and it happened.
• 21:45
  And I just thought, well, that's what that's what they do.
• 21:48
  Right.
• 21:50
  And if you look into hazing and what is the purpose and the point.
• 21:56
  It's often defined as a way to build loyalty and you know, some will even say it's, it's a form of team building.
• 22:05
  Right.
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  So it's, it's creating loyalty and this bond in a traumatic way.
• 22:13
  And a lot of people say, Oh, well, but people sign up for it.
• 22:18
  It's not like it's.
• 22:20
  Forced on them.
• 22:22
  Well, that doesn't mean it isn't traumatic.
• 22:25
  Right.
• 22:27
  And it also doesn't mean they feel like they really have a choice.
• 22:30
  Exactly, exactly.
• 22:32
  So I, I see a lot of similarities in that whole kind of how something like that can become tradition.
• 22:42
  And it's just what we do.
• 22:44
  And it's accepted.
• 22:47
  But really, if we start looking at it, right.
• 22:49
  And we now have rule, we have laws, there are state laws that are forming and probably will continue to form that are anti hazing laws.
• 22:58
  And so I find that really a nice visual parallel to thinking that, well, this is the way we're going to bond and build a relationship with our horse.
• 23:12
  But there's no acknowledgement of what's really happening, happening at the emotional level.
• 23:20
  And when you, anybody that starts working in rehab with horses, like real rehab which, which is dealing with horses that have been traumatized you begin to really see the, the long term effects.
• 23:36
  Of that kind of approach.
• 23:39
  Yeah, definitely.
• 23:40
  I know I have two horses that ties and I, I absolutely agree.
• 23:45
  I, I see that too.
• 23:46
  It's a different way of looking at things.
• 23:48
  Right.
• 23:50
  I would say another really significant one that people need to acknowledge is a, like a grand.
• 23:56
  Erroneous thinking is that what's most honorable is the types of experiences we have with horses that involve work, performance, labor and competition.
• 24:11
  And I would say that that belief system is so strong that there's even a huge group of people who have, who have nothing to do with that or don't want to have anything to do with that, but they feel.
• 24:28
  somehow guilty or less than or not as important with how they engage their horses.
• 24:37
  So these things are put on pedestals and they're, they're sort of put as the standard guide of whether you're an honorable horse person or not.
• 24:49
  And I'm not necessarily saying those types of activities are activities we, we shouldn't engage in.
• 24:56
  I'm just talking about the, the, the overall mindset.
• 25:00
  Yeah, they produce a lot of the myths and the narratives, although there are people competing now at top levels, not many of them, but a few that seem to have a different perspective and seem to understand.
• 25:13
  relationships and neuroscience and the things that make being with a horse just so much more rewarding and magical.
• 25:21
  Absolutely.
• 25:22
  Yeah.
• 25:23
  Yeah.
• 25:24
  Definitely.
• 25:25
  I've got a question for you.
• 25:26
  You've heard me talk about the quiet revolution in the horse world and in my mind, this is part of the discussion.
• 25:33
  How do you see that?
• 25:35
  Are you part of the quiet revolution?
• 25:38
  I, I feel like I am part of something revolutionary which is trying to inspire and encourage people to to be more meaningful and have more meaningful experiences.
• 25:56
  Yes.
• 25:56
  With their horses my revolution isn't necessarily to try to shame, blame a whole lot or, you know, point to all the things that I think are unethical rather I want people to see that we can have really meaningful encounters.
• 26:18
  With our horses that we can walk away from and feel like, okay, this helped my personal growth and this opportunity provided me a chance to nurture something else or develop something else in a meaningful way.
• 26:36
  So in that, in that sense that's, how I feel like my contribution is.
• 26:43
  People come to me either to, to train a horse for them or to give them lessons.
• 26:50
  And I'm trying to show them kind of a more creative way of, of what we can do.
• 27:00
  Even if it's about riding, even if somebody comes to me and says, you know, I want to improve my riding or I want to learn how to ride that whole journey to becoming a rider.
• 27:12
  I want it to look different than what it's.
• 27:16
  normally looking like for a lot of people.
• 27:20
  Yeah, I think, I think that's wonderful.
• 27:22
  I've, I've adopted that kind of a program too, probably from your influence from years ago.
• 27:26
  I often hear, you know, like just stay on the ground with them.
• 27:30
  There's so much to be had from just that groundwork.
• 27:34
  What else can you say about these topics and moving forward?
• 27:38
  Are there questions that you have that you'd like answered or to pose just as, as like things to be thinking about?
• 27:46
  I think really I, I would like to hit hard with people increasing their self awareness and there's so many opportunities.
• 28:00
  With what we can do and how we spend our time with horses to improve that and then also increase the awareness of the other, that being the horse, the other individual that's with us and, just having people see the value in that, and it carries over and spills over into our relationships with others, other people, you know, how we see the world, how we see ourselves.
• 28:36
  So in a way, it sounds like what you're saying is that, is that when you're with horses and people, there's almost an underlying notion and Like permeating idea that any horse time is therapy time because it can and does carry over.
• 28:59
  Yes, and therapy not necessarily just in the sense of I'm broken in some way and this horse is going to help fix me.
• 29:08
  But therapeutic in the way that what's, what's really important.
• 29:16
  For us in a therapeutic way, and what's really gonna make us feel worthwhile and happy and how we spend our time.
• 29:29
  I could give an example, going back to mountain trail, um, we have a facility here.
• 29:37
  That's actually kind of, I would say the founder of of mountain trail competition.
• 29:42
  And that's the Oregon Horse Center.
• 29:45
  And in, after a major competition that they have every year, they leave the course.
• 29:51
  So it's an indoor obstacle course.
• 29:54
  We're talking ditches, mountains, hills, bridges, water running all indoors.
• 30:01
  And they leave the course open so people can come and pay and, you know, work with their horses and do things with their on the course.
• 30:09
  So it's not competitive.
• 30:10
  Right.
• 30:12
  And when I was there, Recently, there was a lady that was very focused with her horse about doing everything, getting, getting the horse to do everything on the course.
• 30:27
  And she went down sort of a pathway of that is the end goal.
• 30:35
  And she was willing to utilize force to make that happen.
• 30:41
  So there was a lot of stress.
• 30:44
  I could see it.
• 30:45
  A lot of anxiety.
• 30:48
  So we had a person on a horse who was pressure, pressure, pressure, right?
• 30:54
  Using their aids, um, pretty forcefully.
• 30:58
  And then there was a lot of drama from the horse.
• 31:02
  And so, as a bystander seeing that, I'm like, I'm, I'm not seeing anything rewarding or valuable in that experience.
• 31:13
  And then, towards the end of, of their time there, the horse finally did something.
• 31:20
  And it was after a lot of force.
• 31:24
  And she walked away with a huge grin on her face.
• 31:28
  And she patted the horse vigorously.
• 31:31
  And I heard her say, I'm so glad he did that for me.
• 31:38
  And, you know, from my perspective, cause I'm on the ground with a youngster and I spent my whole time with him wandering around and him showing me what was interesting to him.
• 31:50
  And I could see how he was utilizing his senses and what, when he was noticing movement and where he wanted to go and what he wanted to avoid because I didn't have that level of control on him.
• 32:09
  And.
• 32:11
  It's, it's just sad for me because I feel like so many people miss out on the gold nuggets.
• 32:18
  They, they, they do.
• 32:20
  And that story beautifully illustrates it.
• 32:22
  I'm stopping in here because we do have an opportunity to go into a part two and we have less than a minute here.
• 32:29
  So let's wind up section one and come right back, continuing with this conversation that is so beneficial.
• 32:37
  And thank you, Kimberly.
• 32:38
  Yes.
• 32:39
  See you again in a minute.
• 32:40
  Sounds good.
• 32:42
  Thanks.