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“The RNC: Now, With 5x More Trump!” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Levitt. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, Kevin Roos of the New York Times
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: talks to Tommy about Trump's embrace of the QAnon cult.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Before that, we'll talk about what's in store for this
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: week's Republican National Convention, how the public reacted to last
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: week's Democratic Convention, and the latest on the Postal Service crisis.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: But first, Lovett, how was the show this weekend?
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: We had a great convention special. Senator Brian Schatz, Emily Heller,
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Naomi Ekperigen, Josh Barrow. We had a good time. We
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: broke down the speeches. That's all you really need to know.
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: Fantastic.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Fantastic. Fantastic. Also, tomorrow is Tuesday, which means there's a
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: brand new episode of Missing America out. Ben talks to
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: an anonymous activist about the daily marches and protests taking
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: place in Hong Kong, and they sound the alarm on
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: the dangers of a growing authoritarian power. So check it
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: out wherever you get your podcasts. Also, if you want
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: to hate watch the RNC with us, we will be
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: on our group thread each night this week, starting at
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern, and Watch with us
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: at Crooked.com slash convention and subscribe to our YouTube channel
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: at YouTube.com slash Crooked Media. A lot of content this week, boys.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: A lot of content.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: A lot of content. All right.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: The Republican National Convention lineup has been announced. And it's
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: a real who's who of Trump staff and family members.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: On Monday, we got Donald Trump Jr., Donald Trump Jr.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: 's girlfriend, Kim Guilfoyle, and Donald Trump. Tuesday night, we
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: got Melania Trump, Eric Trump, Tiffany Trump, and Donald Trump again.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Wednesday night, we got Lara Trump and Donald Trump again.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Thursday night, Ivanka Trump, and one more time, Donald Trump.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: The Republican Party also announced that they will not be
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: releasing any policy platform other than to reassert, quote, the
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: party's strong support for President Donald Trump and his administration. Meanwhile,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Trump has released a second-term agenda that includes bullets like, quote,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: teach American exceptionalism, drain the globalist swamp, and return to
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: normal in 2021.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not really getting a not-me-us vibe from this convention.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: What about you?
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, he already started this morning. He
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: went to the podium already today for his uplifting convention
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: and spent the whole time railing against the scourge of
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: people voting. So it's already off to a great start.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: They already also did their....
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Their roll call.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: And we had people all across the country in these
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: magnificent vistas showing the best of America. And it was
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: just white head after white head, just being like, we
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: hate Joe Biden and we're sending Kentucky's votes to Donald Trump.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: So they're already kind of failing to meet the expectations
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: set over the weekend.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Love it. I can't believe you would be this hard
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: on a good step and repeat. It looked more terrible.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like they're on their way into a
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: Dinesh D'Souza documentary. But the other, this is stupid and
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: this is small. American exceptionalism is not something you claim
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: to teach. It's an insult at people who believe America
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: is exceptional. It was coined by Joseph Stalin. If you say,
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: I think the Yankees are the best team, you don't
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: say I'm a Yankees exceptionalist. You think the Yankees are
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: the best. Other people think you're stupid and don't notice
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: what's wrong with the Yankees. If you love America and
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: think America is the best, it's not because you believe
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: in America and exceptionalism. It's because that's your evaluation of countries.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: See what I'm saying?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Do you see why it's stupid?
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm glad that bothered you. I do
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: think the fact that they have decided to forego a
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: policy platform this year.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: No, this is a small note. For whatever dear leader wants.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: That's also one of two things in the... That's their
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: education platform, which is absolutely incredible. Also, one thing I
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: noticed in the platform is repealing Obamacare, not high on
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: his agenda anymore.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: That's gone.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: That's out of there.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: So I wonder.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: I wonder how they're explaining that to themselves.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what are the potential downsides of having this much Trump?
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: You guys notice they've been calling him the talent in chief.
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: That's a cute little thing in their background. So it's
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: not totally clear what his role is every night. Jason
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: Miller is out today saying he might just be appearing
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: and not speaking every night, but I don't believe him.
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: I think it's very hard to drag Trump in front
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: of a microphone and not have him speak. So like
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: on a basic level, his approval rating is, Forty one,
• 4:51
  Speaker 5: 42 percent, which means your message every night is going
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: to be carried by someone who's deeply unpopular. Yes, there
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: are other speakers, but he's going to lead the news coverage.
• 4:59
  Speaker 5: He's going to lead everything that spins out of this
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: event every night. So I don't know that that's ideal. Normally,
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: conventions are structured to let validators carry the message for
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: you and tell your story because they can often make
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: the case better than you can. And so, you know,
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: look at Michelle Obama's speech, right? She comes into that.
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: She's a 60% approval rating. She's a 91% approval rating
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: among Democrats. She makes a case for Biden's character. She
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: presents this devastating critique of Trump that makes news in
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: all these different ways and appeals to different audiences. And
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: I think that's more beneficial. I just wonder if this
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: is going to be too much Trump, right? I mean,
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: it's not the same as the daily coronavirus briefing because
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: he's giving a speech. It's not a Q & A,
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: but that did hurt him politically. I also just wonder
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: if it's going to get boring. I mean, he spoke
• 5:44
  Speaker 5: for 45 minutes already this morning. I mean, it feels
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: like too much. So potential upsides, right? I mean, he
• 5:51
  Speaker 5: has commanded the political debate over the last four years,
• 5:55
  Speaker 5: unlike any president we've ever seen. Despite the fact that
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: the RNC says this will be hopeful, my guess is
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: that Trump is just going to end the night every
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: night with another broadside against Joe Biden, and that can
• 6:05
  Speaker 5: add up.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Another upside for them.
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: I guess, if we're being honest, is it's not like
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: they've got a ton of great options, right? And most
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: of the keynote speakers are named Trump. They're just shittier
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: versions of him. It's not like Matt Geitz or Jim Jordan,
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: who have no name ID.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Are going to carry the message well. Like drunk ass
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani, an assortment of White House staffers. Like it's
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: slim picking. So none of this is to say it
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: won't be a successful RNC. It might be.
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: I just imagine it's just going to be a sustained
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: negative assault on Joe Biden.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: I saw one run of show that said Jim Traffickant, parens,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: if alive.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Look, I do very much enjoy watching the best laid
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: plans of the fucking goobers who work for Donald Trump
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: instantly meet reality on the first morning of the convention.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Like their job right now is to turn this election
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: into a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. and
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: to move it away from a referendum on Donald Trump
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: and his leadership. That's what they're trying to do. So
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: that's why you got Miller out there and Kellyanne Conway
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: and all the rest of them talking about this hopeful,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: optimistic convention versus the Democrats' dark, scary convention, right? Which
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: is like bullshit already. And then they're talking about like,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: it won't be... Ronna McDaniel, the Republican National Committee chairwoman
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: actually said, it's not going to be Trump-centric. like the
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Democratic Convention is. It's going to be about real people
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: who've benefited. It's like they know that their strategic imperative
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: is to do that, is to turn it into a
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: choice between Trump and Biden and to try to defend
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's record and talk about the second term. Like
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: they know this is what they need to do.
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: And then.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: about an hour into the convention on Monday morning, Donald
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Trump storms in, gives a speech longer than Joe Biden's
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: acceptance speech, where he just rambles on, accuses Democrats of
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: stealing the election, talks about Spygate, talks about Barack Obama,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: goes off on this thing. And it's just like, it's
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: always about him. And he makes it about him all
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: I would say in what Trump said today, so there's
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: whatever they'll claim about the message. Kellyanne Conway will take
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: a break from trust falls with Claudia and George to like,
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: let us know what the message is going to be.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Can I say that?
• 8:21
  Speaker 6: It's fine.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: And, uh, and like Ronna Romney, McDaniel will say whatever
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: she wants to say. Um, but like Trump today, this morning,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: I think actually says what the message will be because
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: you can't put bounds on what he'll do. He'll say
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: what it is. And really what he said today is
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: if it wasn't for me, the virus would have killed millions. Uh,
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: if it wasn't for me, everything would have been worse.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: I shut down travel from Europe. I shut down travel
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: from China. Everyone told me that that was stupid. None
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: of this is true. And if you give Joe Biden
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: the reins, America won't come back. He's going to shut
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: it down. Things will be worse than ever before. And
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: so in a way, I think what he's trying to
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: basically do is he's trying to declare bankruptcy He's trying
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: to say, all right, let's go back to zero. Let's
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: cancel all the old debts. None of that was my fault.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: I'm not paying for any of it. We're back at
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: zero because that's what he knows how to do. And
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: his hope is that he can spend a week basically
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: terrifying people about Joe Biden. claiming that America won't come
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: back if Joe Biden is president.
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, their optimistic message is an apocalyptic message. I mean,
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: normally an optimistic message means painting a better future for
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: you and me. Here's my plan for that vision. Here's
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: my plan for that future. Here's my vision. There was
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: some hand-wringing at the DNC because Biden didn't spend enough time,
• 9:35
  Speaker 5: some people think, talking about his economic plans.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's right. Maybe I don't know.
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: But Trump's second term agenda so far is, 50 bullet points.
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: I mean, it just if that's all they've got there,
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: they have to fill in the rest with just attacks
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: on Biden.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Well, also, does anyone think that if asked, Trump would
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: be able to repeat any of those bullet points? I mean,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: he was on Fox News Sunday night and the host
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: asked him about his second term. agenda and what he
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: would do. And he said, quote, I would strengthen what
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: we've done and I would do new things.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: He's whiffed on that question on Fox four times. Literally
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: four times. It's amazing.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: And that's Fox.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: That's Fox. It's amazing.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: What else is it?
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about how last week's Democratic National Convention has
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: been received by the public so far. In a few
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: new polls conducted over the weekend, Joe Biden maintained or
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: just slightly increased his lead over Donald Trump, which is
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: now an average of nine points. But a number of
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: polls have also shown that the favorability ratings for Joe
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Biden and Kamala Harris have risen by a decent margin,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: especially among independents, Black voters, and Democrats, more of whom
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: now say they're very enthusiastic about voting for Biden. Tommy,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: what do you think this says about the success of
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: the Democratic convention and how much the convention matters to
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: the overall race?
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think there's this silly discussion about whether
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: or not people get a convention bump that is actually
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: kind of dated. I think the average convention bump since
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: 2004 is about two points. So I think if you
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: look inside those polls, there actually was good news. I
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: think The one you mentioned, there's two that I saw, John.
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: Axios and SurveyMonkey, they showed a 14-point improvement in Biden's
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: net favorable rating with independents. And Biden and Kamala Harris
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: got a five-point bump in their favorability with Democrats. And
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: then CBS did a poll where they said to voters,
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: they asked voters why you were voting for Joe Biden.
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: And the percentage of people who said, because I like
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: Joe Biden, went from 29% pre-convention to 38% post-convention. So
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: that makes it seem like they did do an effective
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: job of explaining to people who Joe Biden is, his values,
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: his character, uh, the things he would do for them as.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: President, which I would view as a success.
• 11:38
  Speaker 6: Love it.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the number that I sort of stood
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: out to me. It was what we talked about. Actually, Dan,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: I think actually on the pod set a marker down
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: saying he wanted to see a change in the number
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: of people who were supporting Biden to support Biden versus
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: supporting Biden to oppose Trump. And that 9% shift I
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: think is really important. Um, You know, one thing that
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: has just become clear is that with each passing convention,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: the number of persuadable people watching goes down.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: That's just the nature of polarization.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: And one of the hardest jobs is to reach the
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: kind of people you could persuade but might not be
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: paying attention.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that has been the trend, as
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: you both point out, generally over time. I also think
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: that this election in particular so far has been incredibly stable.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: despite all that's happened, right? Like the margin between Trump
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and Biden has not, has been fairly stable. And I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: think more people have already made up their minds in
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: this election, certainly than in 2016. I think the morning
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: consult poll showed that, you know, Biden didn't get a
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: huge bounce so far and neither did, and Hillary got
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: a few points after 2016. But after 2016, you I
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: think Morning Consult found the race like 44-40 Hillary over Trump, right?
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Which means there's a lot of undecided voters. Now it's
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: like 51-52-43, which means that Biden's over 50, meaning that
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: a lot more people have made up their minds and
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of other polls have shown that. So I
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: think what that means for both the Democratic convention and
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: what we're about to see this week is that we
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: may not see a big bump for either Biden or
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. But I think what the Biden campaign has
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: wanted is A lot of Biden's lead comes from sort
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: of voters who are softer in their support. So they're
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: voting for Joe Biden because they really just don't like
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. If those people, after a week of the
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Democratic Convention, decide that they like Joe Biden a lot more,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: they're going to be firmer in their support for Joe Biden.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: And that's going to harden that margin that we've already
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: seen build over the last couple of months, hopefully. We'll
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: see what the Republican National Convention does to that lead
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: this week. So Why can't he say fucking plasma? Plasma.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Plasma.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Blood plasma infusions as therapeutic treatment for coronavirus patients. Even
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: though FDA scientists voiced objections to Politico that the plasma
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: has not been, quote, proven as an effective treatment. Axios
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: reports that Trump administration officials have been putting pressure on
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: the FDA. Just last week, trade advisor Peter Navarro said
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to officials at the FDA, quote, you are all deep
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: state and you need to get on Trump time.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: So.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Tommy, Trump and his strategists clearly think that any kind
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: of announcements around COVID treatments and vaccines help him politically,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: which obviously has horrifying implications. But do you even think
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: that's true?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I struggle with this one.
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: I mean, is the average voter happy about Trump's handling
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: of the coronavirus if they're still stuck at home or
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: if their kids can't go to school or if you're
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: one of like 30 million people out of work? My
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: guess is probably not. I mean, We shouldn't underestimate his
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: ability to bullshit his base into just magically thinking things
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: are better. We saw that with the economy, but I
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: have a harder time believing it applies here. Like, are
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: you really going to be like 175,000 people are dead?
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: The economy is decimated. But I just overheard some moron
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: on Fox and Friends talking about plasma.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: So now we're good to go. I don't know. I
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: struggle with that one. Love it.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: What do you think? I mean, some people thought that
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: there was a story in the Financial Times about that
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: it wasn't going to be the plasma thing, that it
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: was going to be that in October, they're going to
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: do an emergency use authorization for the Oxford vaccine, potentially,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: so that Trump can announce there'll be a vaccine before
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the election. Do you think this kind of thing can work?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I would say that people at this
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: point are used to Donald Trump saying things that don't
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: turn out to be true. That is then dismissed by
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: the vast majority of people and embraced as a kind
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: of proof of how good he is because he's so
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: good at playing the media by his base who are
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: so smart that they know when he's honest and know
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: when he's not. To me, the thing that makes me
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: nervous is not like basically what amounts to kind of
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: bigging up a incremental advance. What makes me nervous is
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: more of a Donald Trump taking credit for something. And
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: then actually there is follow-up of a, because once there
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: is a vaccine that goes into production, it becomes, you know,
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: the biggest story in politics.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: And in the news.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: And then we are following every single day the debates
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: about distribution, the debates about who gets it first. Will
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: it go to nurses and healthcare professionals? Will it go
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: to seniors? Will it go to teachers? That becomes an
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: all-consuming debate that he's very much a part of and
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: taking credit for. So that makes me nervous, sincerely. But
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know that in October he'll be in a
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: position to start that conversation. What matters to me is
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: less Donald Trump going to a podium and making a
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: claim and more the follow on news stories that make
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: it seem true.
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I will say, we have the folks at Navigator have
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: done a lot of polling on people's opinions around the
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: pandemic and Trump. And on their last poll, even among
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: people who are in high infection states, 57% say they
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: are more concerned about going too far and pushing to
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: develop a vaccine quickly rather than being too cautious and slow.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So I think A, there's that when you hear Donald
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Trump just like touting a new treatment or vaccine. B,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I also find it weird that like, so what is
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Trump's argument here come October? Like, vote for me and
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: you'll get a vaccine. Vote for Joe Biden and I'm
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: taking the vaccine with me.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is he going to hold up the secret recipe
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: with a lighter?
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Like, what's the pitch? I just don't get why that's
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: a real, why that's a big reelection argument, like why
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that's the big October surprise.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I would say, right, right.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: If you're going to answer the question, it's, I think
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: it's more about Trump saying something along the lines of,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: If it weren't for me, this vaccine would be months
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: off because I pushed these dumb, deep state, namby-pamby government
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: insiders who are too slow and too cautious and too
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: worried about how it looks. And I pushed them and
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: I pushed them and I got this vaccine done faster.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: And so because of me, I stopped the virus. He'll say,
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: I stopped the China virus by keeping people out of
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: the U.S. And then I'm stopping the virus by getting
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: the vaccine done early. And that, I think, is the
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: case he'll make.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so then it's like, stick with me, and we
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: get this vaccine that I pushed for, and the economy's
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: back open. You go with Sleepy Joe, and he probably
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: gums up the works again on the vaccine and shuts
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: the whole country down.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: He just only gives it to Elon Omar and Antifa.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Nobody else gets it. Becomes a Muslim-only vaccine.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: We are joking about this now in October. That line
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: will probably come out of his mouth.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he'll fall asleep during the meeting about it or something, yeah.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: So on that note, you know, Trump and other Republicans
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: are also attacking Joe Biden for saying he'll follow the
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: advice of public health experts if he's elected. In response
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: to a question from ABC's David Muir about what he
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: would do if scientists recommended another shutdown, Biden said, quote,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I would shut it down. I would listen to the scientists.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: We're going to do whatever it takes to save lives.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: In response, Donald Trump tweeted, despite biggest ever job gains
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and a V-shaped recovery, Joe Biden said, I would shut
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: it down, referring to our country. He has no clue. Tommy,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Trump and the Republicans are very excited about this line
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: of attack Is it smart?
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: We just had this debate. We just had this debate.
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: Politicians who took the coronavirus seriously, who listened to scientists,
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: saw their approval ratings go up. Those who didn't were
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: hurt politically. It's not like a federal thing. It's look
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: at the governors. Governors in Arizona, Texas, and Florida all
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: saw their numbers tank. But Roy Cooper in North Carolina,
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: who took all kinds of shit from Trump because he
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: wouldn't let the RNC happen in Charlotte without social distancing
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: and masks and other health protocols, his approval rating was
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: almost at 60%.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Like, look, I can't predict the future.
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: Maybe people are sick of lockdowns and the context has changed,
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: but I still think the safest political ground for Biden
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: or Trump or anybody is to show that you will
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: follow the scientists and do what they say. Because I
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: don't think anyone wants like a a chop shop vaccine
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: from Putin in Russia or, you know, to keep the
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: economy open when people are getting really sick.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: It's like this seems so obvious to me. Love it.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've been very pleasantly surprised at how patient
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: most of the public has been about this, because, you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: we've now gone through this, as Tommy pointed out, many
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: times where Trump says Democrats want to shut the country
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: down and I don't. Um, and every time it turns out,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: you know, there's some people who think, oh, that's going
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: to be a political winner for him. And then it
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: turns out people are much more patient because they are
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: scared about opening up the country without a vaccine or
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: without having gotten the virus under control. Um, but what
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: do you think about that? Does that, does that surprise you?
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Or do you think that like people could finally be
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: sick of it now? And this is a, this was
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: one where it's beyond Trump. There was a bunch of
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Republican strategists. Some of the more right-leaning reporters were tweeting this, like,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: we'll probably hear this all week at the convention, I'm sure.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, um, So I think Biden is on the
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: best ground when he says you can't actually choose between
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: the economy and your health. The only way the economy
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: comes back is if we take care of people's health.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: That to me is is incredibly like sort of clear,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: like popular, obvious. I also do understand why he's saying
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: what he's saying. And I think it's admirable that he's
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: letting the science lead and really kind of delivering a
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: maximal position.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: You know, I will do what the scientists say if
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: they say shut it down. I will shut it down.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I get that.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I also agree that the polls have been incredibly heartening
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: about how patient people and generous people are about this,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: even now to this day, right? Even as parents are
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: now experiencing the hardship of what happens when schools either
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: have to open and shut or can't open or are
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: partially open and it's an entire mess. The polls have
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: shifted to parents wanting to make sure schools don't open, right?
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: They understand the stakes of the virus. That said, you know,
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump has made his career on telling people, basically
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: getting people to forget what their minds know is true,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: to go with something easy, to go with something that
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: feels good. And even as people know instinctively that opening
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: up might be wrong, that Biden's positions are correct, there's
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: something appealing about a guy going up there and saying,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: elect me, it's Mardi.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Gras, right?
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: It's just, you know, give in.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: It'll all be okay.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: It's fine. Everything's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't listen
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: to these naysayers. So like, I think he's saying the
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: right things, but I do think there's a head heart issue.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: It's a little foamy once though, you know, like you
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: can say that the first time and then we, you know,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: the restaurants all open up and the schools open up
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: and suddenly cases are shooting through the roof.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Like, I just think, I think that the other part
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: of this is that Biden, the question to Biden was
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: if the scientists say this, right. And so what, I
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: think Biden is on the best, the firmest ground, as
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: you said, making sure he continues to repeat, I will
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: follow the guidance of scientists. So like, hopefully Biden, Joe
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Biden wins and there's a vaccine or there's a vaccine
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: in development. It's very close. But like if it's a
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: choice between do you want to fucking stumble through 2021
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: like we stumbled through 2020? where we just have these
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: like outbreaks and flare-ups because everyone opens, then we have
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: to shut down again? Or do you want to do
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: four weeks of a real solid shutdown and then actually
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: tamp the virus down so then we can open up
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: for the rest of the year? Obviously, you'd choose the latter,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: but you just have to make that clear and say
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: that you're going to follow scientists and obviously Donald Trump hasn't.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: John, it's really unfair of you to say this.
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: The 50-bullet policy plan they rolled out clearly says return
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: to normal in 2021 in the COVID section.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Please don't. you know, lie about his record or his plan.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine a Donald Trump re-election slogan is return
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: to normal 2021? Just vote for Donald Trump to return
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: to normal.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I want to make one more point too, which is
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: they're going around saying that they are responsible for the
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: biggest job gains in history. And it is one of
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: the most idiotic claims. What's actually happening is you have
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: the most precipitous job drop in history and a tiny
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: little recovery, like just a dead cat bounce, this tiny
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: bit of increase. And the idea that they're going to
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: campaign on the fact that it went from having lost, what,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: 50 million jobs to 45 million jobs is astounding. I
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: can't believe they think they can get away with that.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's wild. All right, let's talk about the latest
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: developments in the great post office crisis of 2020. Postmaster
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: General Louis DeJoy is testifying before the House today. He
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: was in front of the Senate on Friday where he said, quote,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: there has been no changes to any policies with regard
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: to election mail. The Postal Service is fully capable and
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: committed to delivering the nation's election mail fully on time.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: He said he's pausing any additional changes in advance of
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: the election, but he refused to reverse changes he's already made,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: like removing mailboxes and sorting machines. House Democrats also passed
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: a bill with the help of 26 Republicans that would
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: provide $ 25 billion to the post office and, according to
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Roll Call, prevent it from taking any action that would
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: reduce services or impede timely delivery during the pandemic. And
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: it would also require to treat all election mail as
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: first-class mail, postmark it with the data receipt, and to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: the maximum extent practical, process it as soon as it's received. So,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: love it. McConnell and Trump have refused to support this bill.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Trump was tweeting, you know, voter fraud conspiracies again this morning.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: He was talking about the convention already. How useful do
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: you think this vote by Democrats in these hearings were?
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: I think pretty useful. You know, it is difficult to
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: know how responsive someone like DeJoy is to shame and
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: ordinary politics. But I will say that some of the
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: moments that have broken out from the hearings today, we're
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: recording this Monday, and there may be more and we
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: may have missed some stuff.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: It's happening in real time.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: But I thought the two most interesting things that came
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: out of the hearing were, one, DeJoy basically flat out
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: denied that he was responsible for the overtime cuts and
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: some of the other changes in policy that caused the delay,
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: even though there is just documentary evidence, just physical evidence
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: that he actually did, which tells you he's really nervous
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: about this and trying to evade responsibility for some of
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: these changes. And the other thing was, Ro Khanna pushed
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: DeJoy on the elimination of some of these sorting machines
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: and whether they could come back on. And it got
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: a little bit tense. And DeJoy said, give me a
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: billion dollars and I'll set them back up, basically. So
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: it tells you that this has gotten to DeJoy. And
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: it tells you that getting them the money removes a
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: key argument that DeJoy and his allies are making about
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: why these service changes were necessary.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Tommy, do you have any big takeaways from the hearing?
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: And do you think we should be relieved that DeJoy
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: has agreed not to make any more decisions?
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not relieved.
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: I mean, look, you know, being out of power sucks.
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: Good for Pelosi and the House Democrats for holding this hearing.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: Good for them for passing a bill. I think people
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: are much more aware of what was happening with the
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: Postal Service than they were before. I think that 26
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: Republicans voting with Democrats is a big deal.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: It's a big crossover.
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: And hopefully it creates even more pressure on Republicans in
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: the Senate who are up for reelection. I think bigger
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: picture Democrats can argue and should argue, we're here doing
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: our jobs. We passed a major bill to bail out
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: the post office so that veterans can get their medications.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: We passed a major COVID relief bill.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Where the hell are you? Where is Mitch McConnell?
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: Because a few weeks later, we now know that Trump's
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: bullshit stimulus EO is not working. One or two states
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: are actually paying the $ 300 stimulus. The rest are caught
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: up in bureaucracy. You're not going to do it or
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: who knows. but consumer spending is now collapsing. That will
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: lead to more job losses. States are broke. They're going
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: to lay off people. We're in a historic crisis. Everything
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: is getting worse. It does allow Pelosi and the Democrats
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: to put pressure on Republicans to come together and do something.
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: I'm not saying it's going to work because the Republican
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: Party is broken, but they're doing the right things to
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: position themselves to have that chance.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the The hearings are probably more
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: useful than I even thought they would be because it
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: does seem like they're doing everything they can to hold
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: DeJoy accountable. They're saying, come back with a plan and
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: exactly how you're going to make sure that you can
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: process all this election mail. They got DeJoy to say
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: that he was going to send out a letter to
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: every American in September to talk about election deadlines and
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: when they should be getting their ballots in and all
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. So if they can keep up
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: the pressure on DeJoy and haul his ass back in there,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks, if things haven't changed or
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: things are still bad, then like, I do think that
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: can have some effect. But I do think the biggest
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: effect of the entire, all these hearings and, you know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: bringing Congress back from recess to do the vote, if
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: nothing else, if it just lets people know to vote early,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to request your ballot early, to get it back in
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: as early as possible, that there is potentially some problems
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: with the postal service, that they're delivering mail too late,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: that there are delays, that there's reductions in service. If everyone,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: if more people in the country are aware of this
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: and can act accordingly to get their ballots in as
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: early as possible, then that I think will be a
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: win because like we're going to be able to, you know,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: we've had Mark Elias on, there's plenty of lawsuits out there.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like legislation is going to happen. It
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem like Trump is going to do anything about this.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: So the only option we have is to request your
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: ballot early and drop it off early. Like that is
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: the most important thing we can do right now.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: When we come back, we will have Tommy's interview with
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the New York Times' Kevin Roos about QAnon.
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: I'm so excited to talk to our guest today. He's
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: a New York Times technology columnist and the host of
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: the podcast Rabbit Hole, which I binged as fast as
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: one can binge anything.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Kevin Roos, thank you so much for coming on the show.
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: So we are here, unfortunately, today to mostly talk about QAnon.
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: I wish that was not the case. I feel like
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: I've been watching and reading about the growth of QAnon for.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Several years now.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: But If you asked me to explain it to someone
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: for the first time still, I don't know how to
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: summarize it quickly. Can you recreate for me the moment
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: when you had to describe QAnon to some big shot
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: editor at the New York Times and why this was
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: worthy of going in the newspaper?
• 30:45
  Speaker 7: Yeah, if only it were one singular moment. I feel
• 30:49
  Speaker 7: like I've spent most of the past year trying to
• 30:51
  Speaker 7: explain QAnon to just befuddled editors and other people. But
• 30:56
  Speaker 7: the basic nuts and bolts is this, right? QAnon started
• 31:01
  Speaker 7: as a 4chan post in 2017 by someone calling themselves QClearancePatriot,
• 31:09
  Speaker 7: who claimed to be a high-level insider in the Trump
• 31:12
  Speaker 7: administration with access to classified information. about this secret battle
• 31:18
  Speaker 7: between Donald Trump and this global cabal of elite pedophiles.
• 31:24
  Speaker 7: So that is Q. And Q has continued posting almost 5,000
• 31:30
  Speaker 7: times at this point. And over the course of those
• 31:32
  Speaker 7: posts has unspooled this big, sprawling conspiracy theory about how
• 31:37
  Speaker 7: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Ellen DeGeneres, Tom Hanks, Oprah Winfrey,
• 31:43
  Speaker 7: Pope Francis, the Dalai Lama, all of these people are
• 31:46
  Speaker 7: in on this global conspiracy.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Usual suspects, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
• 31:50
  Speaker 7: Who you think of when you think of evildoers in
• 31:52
  Speaker 7: this country, who are all not only part of this
• 31:56
  Speaker 7: global sex trafficking ring where they're trading children and molesting
• 32:01
  Speaker 7: them and things like that, but they're also cannibals. They
• 32:03
  Speaker 7: are literally eating the children in order to extract this
• 32:07
  Speaker 7: supposedly life extending chemical from their blood. So that's the
• 32:12
  Speaker 7: sort of nuts and bolts of the conspiracy theory. I
• 32:15
  Speaker 7: call QAnon the Swiss army knife of conspiracy theories, because
• 32:18
  Speaker 7: it's got a lot in there. Like it's got a
• 32:20
  Speaker 7: piece about, you know, aliens and the JFK assassination. And,
• 32:25
  Speaker 7: you know, it basically encompasses every major conspiracy theory.
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: Of the last 50 years.
• 32:30
  Speaker 7: But the piece that is sort of the most agreed
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: upon piece is this global cabal of elite pedophiles that
• 32:37
  Speaker 7: Donald Trump, in their telling, is about to.
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: Put a stop to.
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: And we are laughing because it's easier than crying on
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: a podcast, but we'll get to the serious part in
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: a bit. So one thing that confuses me a little bit,
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: so my understanding is that QAnon was not the first
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: Anon poster on 4chan. There was CIA Anon, there was
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: FBI Anon.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I think there were others.
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: But what's interesting or surprising maybe is that QAnon has persisted.
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: It's grown enormously to the point where QAnon protests were
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: marching in dozens of cities over the weekend. There were
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: people marching a couple of miles from my house in
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: Los Angeles, despite Q constantly getting things wrong, right? He
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: predicted Hillary Clinton would be arrested in October of 2017.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Clearly that did not happen.
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: Why do you think the QAnon theory took off and
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: how has it persisted in the face of not coming
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: close to being accurate?
• 33:30
  Speaker 7: Well, those are two interesting questions. Well, let's take them
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: one at a time. So first, why has QAnon taken off?
• 33:35
  Speaker 6: You're right.
• 33:35
  Speaker 7: There have been other Anons posting on 4chan. I think
• 33:39
  Speaker 7: part of why this took off is that there's sort
• 33:44
  Speaker 7: of a growing conspiratorial-minded view in America more generally. I mean,
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: we have political leaders who believe in conspiracy theories. We
• 33:53
  Speaker 7: have lots of people getting their news from alternative sources,
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: from social media. things like that, you know, distrust in
• 34:01
  Speaker 7: mainstream institutions. But I also think there's a technical piece
• 34:04
  Speaker 7: of it, which is that in 2018, just after the
• 34:08
  Speaker 7: first Q posts started appearing, Facebook changed its algorithm to
• 34:14
  Speaker 7: promote groups. I don't know if you remember, but there
• 34:16
  Speaker 7: was this period after the 2016 election where they were
• 34:18
  Speaker 7: putting up all these like billboards and signs in the
• 34:21
  Speaker 7: subway and stuff that were talking about Facebook groups and
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: how you could build a community and find people with
• 34:28
  Speaker 7: similar interests. And so they started ratcheting up the spread
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: of groups in the algorithm for News Feed. And that
• 34:35
  Speaker 7: coincided with the formation of all these QAnon Facebook groups.
• 34:40
  Speaker 7: And what Facebook was trying to do was to promote
• 34:42
  Speaker 7: healthy and vibrant communities where people with similar interests would
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: talk about their shared experiences. But that also promoted QAnon
• 34:52
  Speaker 7: because in these QAnon groups, there was social interaction taking place.
• 34:56
  Speaker 7: People were trading tips and trying to decode these mysterious
• 35:01
  Speaker 7: posts together. It looked to the algorithm like genuine social interaction,
• 35:05
  Speaker 7: and it was. And so they got promoted and promoted
• 35:09
  Speaker 7: and promoted.
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: I want to talk more about this social media element
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: of this because It's so important. It's also dovetails with
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: some other things you covered in Rabbit Hole. But before
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: we get there, I mean, so there's the funny part
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: of this, right? They're like, look, people think JFK Jr.
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: faked his death to join Trump's secret evil fighting organization
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: and today is posting as QAnon.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: That is insane.
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: Other parts are not so funny. Like the FBI has
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: warned that conspiracy theory driven domestic extremists are a growing threat.
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: And they specifically mentioned QAnon. Can you talk a little
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: bit about why the FBI, and others, what led to
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: this warning? Were there specific incidents? Was it a collection
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: of things?
• 35:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah, there have been a number of incidents over the
• 35:53
  Speaker 7: past couple of years that I think have really sort
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: of made law enforcement wary of QAnon as a movement.
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: There was an armed standoff on the Hoover Dam Bridge
• 36:05
  Speaker 7: between a QAnon supporter and law enforcement. There have been
• 36:08
  Speaker 7: at least reports you know, a couple murders alleged by QAnon,
• 36:14
  Speaker 7: people who believed in QAnon and sort of carried out
• 36:16
  Speaker 7: these killings in Q's name. There have been abductions, there
• 36:20
  Speaker 7: have been, you know, vandalism, there have been any number
• 36:24
  Speaker 7: of sort of crimes committed by people pledging their support
• 36:29
  Speaker 7: for QAnon. Someone was arrested in with knives in their
• 36:34
  Speaker 7: car saying that they were going to go take out
• 36:37
  Speaker 7: Joe Biden because Q had sort of had turned this
• 36:41
  Speaker 7: person against Joe Biden. So it's really, it sounds funny
• 36:45
  Speaker 7: when you first hear about it. And I think a
• 36:47
  Speaker 7: lot of people have sort of dismissed it as like,
• 36:49
  Speaker 7: you know, ha ha, can you believe? It's like almost
• 36:52
  Speaker 7: like a lizard people.
• 36:53
  Speaker 6: Kind of thing.
• 36:54
  Speaker 7: But this is creating real extremist energy in the country
• 36:59
  Speaker 7: and it's turning violent in a lot of cases.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: And so even more disconcerting is, I don't know when
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: QAnon went mainstream, so to speak, but it has now
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: been fully embraced by the Republican Party. So last week,
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: Trump was asked about QAnon at a press conference, and
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: far from denouncing it, he just fully embraced the theory
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: and his role in it as some sort of savior
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: of the world, savior of our children. He said that
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: QAnon adherents love our country. Before that, he had retweeted
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: QAnon accounts hundreds of times. On top of the Trump administration,
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: The Washington Post counted 11 candidates running for Congress who
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: expressed belief in or support for QAnon.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: There's been a.
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: Subsequent surge of news coverage about the theory. What do
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: you think the impact is of this political embrace and
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: sudden attention to the theory?
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Does it help it grow?
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: I think it probably does.
• 37:51
  Speaker 7: I mean, it's emboldening QAnon supporters after Trump's press conference
• 37:55
  Speaker 7: last week when he basically declined to denounce the QAnon movement,
• 38:00
  Speaker 7: I went into some of the QAnon groups that I
• 38:02
  Speaker 7: lurk in, and they were celebrating. I mean, this was
• 38:05
  Speaker 7: a big moment for them, that they seem to have
• 38:07
  Speaker 7: gotten the endorsement of the president. And I think just
• 38:11
  Speaker 7: in general, I mean, I've spoken to a lot of
• 38:14
  Speaker 7: historians over the past couple of weeks, talking about previous
• 38:17
  Speaker 7: conspiratorial forces in American politics, things like the John Birch Society,
• 38:22
  Speaker 7: But with the John Birch Society, you had prominent conservatives
• 38:25
  Speaker 7: denouncing them and trying to push them out of the movement.
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: And now what we see is.
• 38:29
  Speaker 7: That QAnon is being embraced by people who are part
• 38:33
  Speaker 7: of the mainstream conservative movement, who are maybe not on
• 38:37
  Speaker 7: board with all of the facets of QAnon, but who
• 38:39
  Speaker 7: don't want to detract from the energy, the groundswell of
• 38:43
  Speaker 7: sort of pro-Trump support that these people are offering.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so... I'm glad you mentioned John Birch.
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: So looming large here, obviously, is the role that social
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: media companies play in the spread of this stuff. But
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: QAnon is also not the first conspiracy theory. I mean,
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: when I read about it, it sounds very similar in
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: some ways to me to the Protocols of the Elders
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: of Zion, which is a vile anti-Semitic text that purported
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: to detail Jewish plans for world domination. And it included
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: details about Christian children being sacrificed at Passover dinners, right?
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: Like very similar stuff. It was a total fabrication written
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: by anti-Semitic secret police in Tsarist Russia. It has been discredited.
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: In fact, big chunks of it were just plagiarized. But
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: the thing spread like crazy, right? Especially with, I think,
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: individuals predisposed to have anti-Semitic views. For example, Henry Ford
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: had a half a million copies printed here in the US.
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: Thanks for that, Henry. So, you know, I guess my
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: question is, QAnon doesn't exist without 4chan where it originated.
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: But When you look at the Facebook groups, the YouTube algorithm,
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: how key do.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: You think those elements were to spreading this theory?
• 39:55
  Speaker 6: They were absolutely critical to it.
• 39:56
  Speaker 7: I mean, I don't think QAnon becomes a mainstream phenomenon
• 40:00
  Speaker 7: or anything close to it without mainstream social networks promoting it.
• 40:04
  Speaker 7: I mean, your average Facebook user is not going to
• 40:07
  Speaker 7: wade into the depths of 4chan to like, go look
• 40:11
  Speaker 7: for the latest Q post, but they will join a
• 40:13
  Speaker 7: Facebook group. They will subscribe to a YouTube channel. They
• 40:16
  Speaker 7: will follow people on Twitter who are QAnon influencers. So
• 40:20
  Speaker 7: these platforms have been absolutely essential to the growth of QAnon.
• 40:24
  Speaker 7: And not only because they sort of give it a platform,
• 40:26
  Speaker 7: but because for a while now, they've been actively recommending
• 40:31
  Speaker 7: QAnon content to people that their algorithms think will be
• 40:34
  Speaker 7: interested in it. So I've heard from a number of
• 40:37
  Speaker 7: people that their friends and family members kind of got
• 40:40
  Speaker 7: sucked into QAnon, not because they went looking for it,
• 40:43
  Speaker 7: but because they were in a parenting Facebook group or
• 40:47
  Speaker 7: a natural health Facebook group, or because they subscribed to
• 40:52
  Speaker 7: some person on YouTube who they thought was just talking
• 40:55
  Speaker 7: about economics, but it turned into a thing about QAnon.
• 40:58
  Speaker 7: So they've been very good at kind of creating these
• 41:01
  Speaker 7: algorithmic on-ramps to QAnon that I think are drawing in
• 41:05
  Speaker 7: a lot of people who otherwise never would have found it.
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: I just sort of assume that someone is making a
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: bunch of money off of this theory. Is there any
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: evidence of who or if anyone is making money off
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: of QAnon?
• 41:19
  Speaker 7: There is money being made, certainly. I mean, you can
• 41:21
  Speaker 7: buy Q merchandise. I went to a Trump rally late
• 41:25
  Speaker 7: last year in Florida, and The people selling Trump merchandise
• 41:31
  Speaker 7: also had their Q merchandise right next to it on
• 41:33
  Speaker 7: the table. And in a lot of cases, the QAnon
• 41:35
  Speaker 7: merchandise was selling faster than the Trump merchandise, which is.
• 41:39
  Speaker 6: Strange and troubling.
• 41:41
  Speaker 7: So I think there's definitely people sort of making a
• 41:44
  Speaker 7: grift out of this. But it's not commercialized in the
• 41:49
  Speaker 7: same way that other, I think, political movements have been.
• 41:52
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 41:55
  Speaker 7: You know, we obviously don't know who Q is or
• 41:57
  Speaker 7: what their stake in this is, but clearly it's something that,
• 42:01
  Speaker 7: you know, is sort of bigger than Q at this point.
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: I mean, there's an entire media universe of people, you know,
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: with YouTube shows and Discord servers and Facebook groups, all
• 42:13
  Speaker 7: of which are generating just a ton of engagement and
• 42:16
  Speaker 7: probably some money too.
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: So you had this fantastic podcast that came out a
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: couple months ago, six months ago?
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Time is a flat circle.
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: It explores all the ways people can get pulled into
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: social media platforms and fed increasingly radical content, especially racist
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: right-wing content.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: It's called Rabbit Hole. Everybody should listen.
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: You looked at four years of YouTube search history of
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: a guy named Caleb Kane.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: God bless you for doing that. Can you tell us
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 42:45
  Speaker 5: Experience and what did you learn from that history and
• 42:48
  Speaker 5: about how these algorithms work?
• 42:51
  Speaker 7: Well, I should mention that I did not look through
• 42:52
  Speaker 7: his four years of history on my own. We had
• 42:54
  Speaker 7: a great production team of people who helped me come
• 42:56
  Speaker 7: through that. That's more than any one person.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Can take on. Yes, yes.
• 43:00
  Speaker 7: But we went back through four years of Caleb Kane's
• 43:02
  Speaker 7: YouTube history. He provided it to us. He was someone
• 43:06
  Speaker 7: who had started off as a pro-Obama liberal and then
• 43:12
  Speaker 7: kind of through his YouTube recommendations, got increasingly served more
• 43:16
  Speaker 7: and more extreme right-wing content, ended up sort of sympathizing
• 43:20
  Speaker 7: with the alt-right, and then kind of had this weird
• 43:23
  Speaker 7: thing happen where he kind of came back to sort of.
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: The far left.
• 43:27
  Speaker 7: So we just wanted to figure out like, what the
• 43:29
  Speaker 7: heck is happening here? And what role is YouTube playing
• 43:31
  Speaker 7: in this? So it's really interesting when you start looking
• 43:34
  Speaker 7: at someone's actual YouTube history and doing a kind of
• 43:37
  Speaker 7: a forensic analysis. It's not at all straightforward, but there
• 43:41
  Speaker 7: are these kind of gateways, these people who talk about,
• 43:45
  Speaker 7: you know, things on their YouTube channels that are not
• 43:47
  Speaker 7: politics that are not extreme right wing. They talk about,
• 43:50
  Speaker 7: you know, positive psychology, or they do self help, or
• 43:53
  Speaker 7: they talk about, you know, cryptocurrency or something. And then
• 43:56
  Speaker 7: they start transitioning into kind of more extreme right wing politics,
• 44:00
  Speaker 7: and they kind of bring their audience with them on
• 44:03
  Speaker 7: that journey. And that's kind of what happened to Caleb Kane,
• 44:06
  Speaker 7: he got very into this YouTuber named Stefan Molyneux, who
• 44:09
  Speaker 7: was helping him with depression and was talking about all
• 44:13
  Speaker 7: these issues that were important to him. And then he
• 44:15
  Speaker 7: kind of veered off and became a far-right influencer. And
• 44:18
  Speaker 7: Caleb went with him.
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: So you see these periodic announcements from Twitter, YouTube, Facebook,
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: where they'll ban InfoWars content. Or you'll see these periodic
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: announcements about efforts to crack down on QAnon content. Are
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: those working, do you think? And I know that's a
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: big question in a lot of different pieces. But do
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: those sort of bans and deplatforming, does that work in
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: your view?
• 44:45
  Speaker 7: It depends what you mean by work. I mean, does
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: it decrease to zero the amount of extremist content flowing
• 44:53
  Speaker 7: through these pipes?
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: No.
• 44:54
  Speaker 7: But it can slow the growth, for sure. I mean,
• 44:57
  Speaker 7: just taking QAnon content out of recommendations is a step
• 45:02
  Speaker 7: that I think could slow the growth. It's not going
• 45:04
  Speaker 7: to make the people who currently believe in QAnon stop
• 45:07
  Speaker 7: believing in it, but it could make their recruitment and
• 45:10
  Speaker 7: growth harder. I do think deplatforming works in certain cases.
• 45:16
  Speaker 7: When was the last time you heard from Alex Jones?
• 45:19
  Speaker 7: But I think it can also, for certain people, embolden them. Obviously,
• 45:25
  Speaker 7: we just saw Laura Loomer win a Republican primary for
• 45:31
  Speaker 7: Congress in Florida. Laura Loomer, of course, is she calls
• 45:35
  Speaker 7: herself the most banned person on the Internet. She's been
• 45:37
  Speaker 7: banned by like every major platform, including some that aren't
• 45:41
  Speaker 7: even like Teespring banned her, which I didn't even know
• 45:44
  Speaker 7: it was possible to get banned from Teespring. So that's
• 45:48
  Speaker 7: a case in which I think that ban, you know,
• 45:51
  Speaker 7: those bans have been worn as kind of a badge
• 45:53
  Speaker 7: of honor. But I think in a lot of cases,
• 45:55
  Speaker 7: people just kind of disappear.
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: So just stepping back on the tech platforms, I mean,
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: I lived in San Francisco for a couple of years.
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: I worked with and around a bunch of tech companies.
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: The majority of people I met were great, well-meaning, often brilliant.
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: But I was always a little weirded out by the
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: pervasive myth-making around these companies, right? Like every company had
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: to be mission-driven for some reason. The narrative is always
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: about the world being a better place.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: It's not like... Ride sharing, because drunk driving is bad.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: Let's eliminate it, right? Like there's sort of these simple messages.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: Facebook and Twitter were big in that space. They were
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: big on connecting people. There was some truth to it, right?
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: Like the Arab Spring is the example that Twitter folks
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: always point to.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: But they always.
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: Talked about connecting human beings as like it's some unequivocally
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: good thing, forgetting, you know, all the awful things.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: We do to each other, the world wars, the bigotry.
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: How much blame or rather how much rethinking do you
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: think they are doing about maybe the naivete early on
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: and the downside of creating ways for humans to spread lies,
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: harass each other, like without any guardrails whatsoever?
• 47:05
  Speaker 7: I think they're doing some rethinking of this. I think
• 47:08
  Speaker 7: obviously it's kind of core to their business model that
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: people should be able to share whatever they want with
• 47:14
  Speaker 7: basically whoever they want. at any time, so that's not
• 47:17
  Speaker 7: going away, but I think they've gotten a little savvier
• 47:20
  Speaker 7: about the ways in which their platforms can be misused.
• 47:25
  Speaker 7: And I think there's a problem of naivete still, but
• 47:27
  Speaker 7: I also think there's, I like to think of it
• 47:30
  Speaker 7: as kind of a problem of empathy. With something like QAnon,
• 47:34
  Speaker 7: for example, I've talked to a number of people who
• 47:37
  Speaker 7: believe in the theory, whose family members and friends believe
• 47:40
  Speaker 7: in the theory, and it always seems to stem from
• 47:44
  Speaker 7: a place of social isolation. and from material deprivation, from
• 47:49
  Speaker 7: people who are down on their luck. They're not having
• 47:51
  Speaker 7: a ton of things go right in their lives.
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: They're alone.
• 47:55
  Speaker 7: They're spending all their time on the internet. And then
• 47:57
  Speaker 7: QAnon comes along and promises to fix that for them.
• 48:00
  Speaker 7: It gives them a group of friends to hang out
• 48:03
  Speaker 7: with on the internet. It gives them a mission. It
• 48:05
  Speaker 7: gives them hope that maybe the good guys are going
• 48:08
  Speaker 7: to win. And it fills a void in their social
• 48:13
  Speaker 7: and material conditions. And I don't think the tech companies
• 48:17
  Speaker 7: properly appreciated that under the right conditions, something like QAnon
• 48:21
  Speaker 7: could become genuinely important to people. That if you think
• 48:25
  Speaker 7: about what's important to someone who's living in Silicon Valley
• 48:29
  Speaker 7: and has a great life and a great family and
• 48:32
  Speaker 7: things are going right for them, they're obviously not going
• 48:35
  Speaker 7: to be attracted to something like QAnon. But I think
• 48:38
  Speaker 7: If what you're measuring and what you're optimizing for is
• 48:42
  Speaker 7: something like engagement or even something like social interaction, trying
• 48:46
  Speaker 7: to get people to connect more, I think it's a
• 48:49
  Speaker 7: failure of empathy to not be able to understand the
• 48:52
  Speaker 7: various things that could fill that need for people under
• 48:56
  Speaker 7: the right conditions.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well said. So last question for you. I mean,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Rabbit Hole is hopeful.
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: In that you talk about some ways that people could be,
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: you know, de-radicalized, de-programmed, whatever you want to call it.
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: But I'd say when I look at QAnon, I feel
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: like the horse is out of the barn and has
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: been for a while. It's here to stay. Trump is
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: embracing it. Q followers seem to find a way to
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: explain away every post that doesn't come to fruition, every
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: prediction Q makes. So I guess I'd find myself increasingly
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: worried about the potential for people in these groups to
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: do violent things or act in the real world. Like
• 49:34
  Speaker 5: you said earlier, COVID is making us all more isolated
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: and seemingly more susceptible to this stuff. Have you seen
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: any successful examples of people walking away from QAnon being
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: convinced that it is wrong, that maybe we can learn
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: from and maybe learn a better way to approach people
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: who believe it rather than, I don't know, my default
• 49:55
  Speaker 5: is to mock them probably?
• 49:58
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, we spoke to one former QAnon believer
• 50:01
  Speaker 7: for the podcast in the last episode, and she had
• 50:06
  Speaker 7: had sort of an interesting experience of sort of basically
• 50:09
  Speaker 7: seeing a Q post that had a Bible verse in
• 50:12
  Speaker 7: it and sort of being sort of snapping out of it.
• 50:15
  Speaker 7: It's kind of saying like, wait a minute, like, is
• 50:16
  Speaker 7: this a, you know, marketing scheme? Is this someone trying
• 50:19
  Speaker 7: to like bring Christians into QAnon? So I wouldn't say
• 50:22
  Speaker 7: that's a typical experience. But it certainly is the case
• 50:25
  Speaker 7: that some people just kind of de-radicalize themselves kind of
• 50:29
  Speaker 7: on a, on a fluke. But I think more cases are, harder.
• 50:35
  Speaker 7: I mean, you don't get through to people by telling
• 50:38
  Speaker 7: them about all the failed predictions that Q has made
• 50:40
  Speaker 7: or the various things.
• 50:42
  Speaker 6: That they believe that quite obviously aren't true.
• 50:45
  Speaker 7: I think it comes from sort of personal interaction. I
• 50:51
  Speaker 7: think it comes from engaging with people, trying to be
• 50:53
  Speaker 7: empathetic to the role that QAnon or something like it
• 50:56
  Speaker 7: is filling in their lives, and then trying to figure
• 50:59
  Speaker 7: out healthier ways to meet those needs, whether it's you know,
• 51:02
  Speaker 7: giving someone more social support, whether it's, you know, getting
• 51:06
  Speaker 7: them off their computer and out into the, you know,
• 51:08
  Speaker 7: physical world somehow strengthening their ties to community organizations. It really,
• 51:14
  Speaker 7: I think we've, we imagine that we can just debate
• 51:17
  Speaker 7: something like QAnon out of existence, but I think we've
• 51:20
  Speaker 7: proven that that's just not true and that we actually
• 51:23
  Speaker 7: have to take a much different approach to something like it.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Well, again, well said.
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: Kevin, thank you so much for doing the show today.
• 51:31
  Speaker 5: Everybody should follow you on Twitter, read everything you are
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: writing at the New York Times and subscribe to Rabbit
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: Hole because it is a truly great podcast that helped
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: me better understand how all this shit is spreading online
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: because I don't think people get it and it's a
• 51:45
  Speaker 5: little scary. And I'm glad we have experts to turn
• 51:48
  Speaker 5: to like you.
• 51:49
  Speaker 7: Thanks for having me.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Kevin Roos for joining us today. And we'll
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: see you on Group Thread tonight. And we'll see you
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: on the pod on Thursday. And then we're just going
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: to have another big one.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: We're just going to never stop streaming.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: One of the things we didn't talk about is that
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: there's kind of a QAnon bullet in his agenda.
• 52:11
  Speaker 6: What is it?
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: In his 2021.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: It's the one where he said, yeah, take on the
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: international organizations that hurt Americans and drain the globalist swamp.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: There's a real... There's a QAnon vibe on those bullets.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: There's... I talked about this with Kevin a little bit.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: I know we're in the outro, but, you know, hey, congrats.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: You stuck around. But like, hey, we got some time.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: It's free. It's free. Turn us off if you want.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: There's everything we do for you is free.
• 52:35
  Speaker 5: There's some real like historical echoes going back to like
• 52:38
  Speaker 5: the protocols of the elders of Zion that gets wrapped
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: into these QAnon, like the Rothschild. Like it's this is
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: some dark, dark shit.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Are you saying this is not the optimistic, hopeful message
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: that we were promised?
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Where we go one, we go all.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: It's really exciting. We're united.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Can't wait for that.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: This sucks. All right, everyone.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: We'll see you on the group thread. Pod Save America
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Reston, and
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to our digital team,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim, who
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: film and upload these episodes as videos every week.