Latest / Monero Talk / In Defense of the Zcash Development Fund with Ian Sagstetter #Monerotopia23

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In Defense of the Zcash Development Fund with Ian Sagstetter #Monerotopia23 · Monero Talk

• 1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:25,039 [Applause] 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:28,000 [Music] 3 00:00:25,039 --> 00:00:31,800 cool awesome um well thank you so much 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:33,800 uh yeah really excited to be here and 5 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,840 first of all I just want to thank um 6 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,640 Manera Topia and everyone within the 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,000 Monera Community for the opportunity to 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,680 speak on something um that's a little 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,559 bit spicier I guess a little bit more 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,280 controversial um um but yeah so super 11 00:00:45,559 --> 00:00:50,320 thankful uh today going to be discussing 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,160 um the zcash Development Fund um 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,320 providing somewhat of a defense for it 14 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:57,559 but also really highlighting areas that 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,079 I think it can improve um because I 16 00:00:57,559 --> 00:01:01,239 think there are a lot of gaps and a lot 17 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:03,480 of areas that need to address within 18 00:01:01,239 --> 00:01:05,640 zcash um so yeah going to be talking on 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:10,200 that today um couple disclaimers before 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:13,200 I get into it um I have worked um I am 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,799 working have worked or have you know 22 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,520 done Grant proposals for organizations 23 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:20,840 within the zcash Development Fund so I 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:24,479 am a bit biased so take my bias for what 25 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:26,119 it's worth and also um my everything I 26 00:01:24,479 --> 00:01:27,799 say here is going to be my opinions and 27 00:01:26,119 --> 00:01:29,920 not opinions of any of the organizations 28 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:32,240 Affiliated affiliated with the zcast 29 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,680 Development Fund um and also not going 30 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,280 to be speaking too much on Monero 31 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,640 funding mechanisms just because I'm not 32 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,840 super well versed in them and I don't 33 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,479 want to speak on things that I'm not um 34 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,520 well educated on so a little bit about 35 00:01:43,479 --> 00:01:48,159 myself before I get in my name is Ian 36 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,719 and I'm currently working um with a 37 00:01:48,159 --> 00:01:52,479 company in the ethereum space and I also 38 00:01:50,719 --> 00:01:55,240 have a research Grant with the zcash 39 00:01:52,479 --> 00:01:57,520 foundation um I also created a open 40 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,280 source project called zob which received 41 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,200 a fund which received a grant from the 42 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,119 zcash grants program and I was also a 43 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,520 former employee with um the electric 44 00:02:04,119 --> 00:02:07,159 Coin Company so as mentioned I've 45 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,280 touched every part of the Development 46 00:02:07,159 --> 00:02:11,720 Fund so um so yeah let's get into it the 47 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,200 first thing I just want to cover for 48 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,599 those who aren't familiar and I'll be 49 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,920 very quick quick with this because I 50 00:02:14,599 --> 00:02:18,040 would imagine that most people here know 51 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:20,319 what this is um yeah what is the zcash 52 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,400 Development Fund so it's this fund that 53 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:24,280 issues 20% of mining rewards to a 54 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,480 community development program and it was 55 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,360 established in 2020 to replace the zcash 56 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,040 founders reward which was a 20% um block 57 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,120 reward there was allocated to projects 58 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:36,360 Founders so I think with this block 59 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:38,599 reward a small percentage um of it let's 60 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,800 say 6% of the block rewards went to the 61 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:42,360 electric Coin Company and the zcash 62 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,159 foundation and the majority of it went 63 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,640 to a group of 44 people who were early 64 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:49,319 investors um employees and founders of 65 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:51,360 the zcash project so somewhat of a 66 00:02:49,319 --> 00:02:54,040 controversial and kind of Novel funding 67 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,959 mechanism and in 2020 the community 68 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,280 decided to enact a new funding mechanism 69 00:02:55,959 --> 00:03:00,159 called the zcash development program um 70 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,680 where 40% of that fund goes goes to the 71 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:05,159 community grants 35% go to the electric 72 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,159 Coin Company and 25% go to the zcash 73 00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:10,159 foundation for protocol development and 74 00:03:07,159 --> 00:03:15,400 adoption so that that kind of equates to 75 00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:18,040 I think 8% to zcg 7% to ECC and 5% to ZF 76 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,840 of O of overall um block 77 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,680 rewards so the question is why why would 78 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,959 you implement this so the the the 79 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,640 founders reward which I don't want to 80 00:03:23,959 --> 00:03:27,000 speak too much on because I wasn't 81 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:29,280 around in zcash when that was 82 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,319 implemented but it was to incentivize 83 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,799 builders to stick around the project not 84 00:03:31,319 --> 00:03:35,319 kind of operate like a pump and dump 85 00:03:32,799 --> 00:03:37,799 scheme and to incentivize long-term 86 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:39,680 development of the zcash protocol um and 87 00:03:37,799 --> 00:03:42,159 why the zcash Development Fund you know 88 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,040 was kind of put in place was because you 89 00:03:42,159 --> 00:03:46,720 know the because these are baked into 90 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:50,040 the um the protocol you know after a 91 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,040 certain period during the 92 00:03:59,879 --> 00:04:03,920 blog post reaching consensus on the 93 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:05,640 electric Coin Company website and there 94 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,079 was this idea that you know there was it 95 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,400 wasn't unexpected because they knew it 96 00:04:07,079 --> 00:04:11,720 was coming in 20120 but there was an end 97 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,480 to funding within within the zcash um 98 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,280 ecosystem so people felt that the future 99 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,919 of the project was uncertain you know 100 00:04:16,280 --> 00:04:19,519 ECC and ZF were not going to be 101 00:04:17,919 --> 00:04:20,959 subsidized so the question was are 102 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:23,000 community volunteers going to pick up 103 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:24,919 the development of the protocol now 104 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,600 something I will acknowledge that this 105 00:04:24,919 --> 00:04:28,440 blog post left out is that there are 106 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,280 alternative funding mechanisms outside 107 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,800 of a Dev fund um so they did leave that 108 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,440 out in my opinion but this was kind of 109 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,600 the sentiment within the community is it 110 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,720 going to be Dev fund or nothing so the 111 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,240 question that was asked by ECC is is 112 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,520 anyone going to be incentivized to 113 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,680 advocate for zcash at exchanges wallets 114 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,479 regulatory bodies and is the digital 115 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,120 currency with strong privacy protection 116 00:04:46,479 --> 00:04:49,400 is going to survive during a time when 117 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,280 people feel that the government and 118 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,400 large corporations are infringing upon 119 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:56,160 fre Freedom security dignity and consent 120 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,960 um so this was kind of the overall kind 121 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,120 of sentiment of is there going to be a 122 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,919 debt fund or not is the zcash project 123 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,960 going to kind of progress or not and I 124 00:05:01,919 --> 00:05:05,560 will acknowledge as well again that I'm 125 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,960 not saying that zcash or Monero are 126 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,240 better one's better than the other I'm 127 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:12,120 just kind of presenting the information 128 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:14,360 for the argument here um so the thought 129 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,880 was kind of at zcon one where Zuko 130 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,120 presented this in in cro show was there 131 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,840 was kind of these three funding 132 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,400 mechanisms that could have been 133 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:24,680 implemented um you could have stopped 134 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,800 receiving Founders reward money and each 135 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,039 company had like Runway so five to six 136 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,240 months Runway during the time so you 137 00:05:29,039 --> 00:05:33,960 could stop receiving um de um Founders 138 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,400 reward money and you could kind of 139 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,479 extend your Runway not grow your company 140 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,360 and therefore become maintainers of the 141 00:05:38,479 --> 00:05:41,720 protocol now again I would argue during 142 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,600 the time they probably could have sought 143 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,520 out other funding mechanisms but this 144 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,000 was the argument that was presented so 145 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,639 we can maintain the protocol but not 146 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:52,919 further development the other option was 147 00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:55,600 we can um look to build other things and 148 00:05:52,919 --> 00:05:57,039 receive other um funding Alternatives 149 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,000 which would likely mean that these 150 00:05:57,039 --> 00:06:01,960 companies would build on other protocols 151 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,160 and perhaps not direct all of their 152 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,560 attention to zcash and then the third 153 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,440 was going all in on zcash and advocating 154 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,400 for a new development funding model 155 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,000 which is what um the electric Coin 156 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,319 Company at the time known as the zcash 157 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,360 company and the broader Community um 158 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:18,680 decided to go for I will acknowledge 159 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,319 that there was a kind of community 160 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,400 sentiment process put in place and the 161 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:25,880 majority of the zcash community through 162 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,240 these Community sentiment processes did 163 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,120 voice that they were in favor of a zcash 164 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,560 development funding model 165 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,400 um whether those sentiment Gathering 166 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,800 mechanisms were as decentralized or 167 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,759 representative to the community at large 168 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,560 um were they effective of that I I can't 169 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:42,240 answer that but the sentiment gathered 170 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,160 through these mechanisms did show that 171 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,240 people were in favor of a Development 172 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,960 Fund model so what are the kind of 173 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:52,960 highlevel arguments for a zcash Dev fund 174 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,479 model the arguments given is that the 175 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,479 project is more sustainable and there's 176 00:06:54,479 --> 00:06:59,720 more financial incentivization for 177 00:06:56,479 --> 00:07:01,440 Builders within the protocol so the 178 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,440 argument is that zcash has produced a 179 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,759 lot of cuttingedge cryptography and has 180 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,280 done a lot of great development in the 181 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:09,160 zero knowledge space and they are word 182 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,879 world class builders in the zcash 183 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,319 community that would likely be able to 184 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:15,960 um find work and employment on other 185 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:18,400 projects if there wasn't a financial 186 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,960 incentivization within zcash so by 187 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,319 dedicating their lives to zcash there 188 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,319 needs to be some Financial reward and 189 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:25,039 some Financial incentive to do that so 190 00:07:23,319 --> 00:07:27,039 there is an argument that there's that 191 00:07:25,039 --> 00:07:28,759 to there's that incentivization to 192 00:07:27,039 --> 00:07:30,720 retain Builders or retain talent to work 193 00:07:28,759 --> 00:07:32,360 on the zcash program protocol and it 194 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,400 also provides the protocol more 195 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,199 long-term sustainability and longer term 196 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,680 funding models than other funding models 197 00:07:36,199 --> 00:07:40,360 that are available in the space um it 198 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,680 gives protocol development teams the 199 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,360 ability to think longer term So In 200 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,479 traditional Grant models a lot of Grants 201 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,840 are you maybe maybe one to two years at 202 00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:51,400 a time Within zcash These are done every 203 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,560 having so four years um at at the 204 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,280 current at the current rate so people 205 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,360 are given four-year time Horizons where 206 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:00,039 they can acquire a lot of you know US 207 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,919 dollar value worth of zcash and can 208 00:08:00,039 --> 00:08:04,560 build long runways and um can kind of 209 00:08:02,919 --> 00:08:06,000 long-term think about the project and 210 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,960 how things are going to look out in five 211 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,639 10 20 30 years the argument is that this 212 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,159 slows protocol development and doesn't 213 00:08:10,639 --> 00:08:14,919 bring it up to speed but um the argument 214 00:08:13,159 --> 00:08:17,000 I guess the counter to that would be the 215 00:08:14,919 --> 00:08:19,159 zcash team can kind of focus on putting 216 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,680 out really sound code and really really 217 00:08:19,159 --> 00:08:22,199 sound protocols that aren't um 218 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,159 vulnerable to attack or things of that 219 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:25,280 nature so these are kind of the 220 00:08:23,159 --> 00:08:26,599 arguments that are in place for that and 221 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,720 then the last is that it gives the 222 00:08:26,599 --> 00:08:31,360 opportunity for um the community to be 223 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,080 to hold the protocol teams accountable 224 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,839 and not Venture Capital firms who might 225 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:38,680 have misaligned incentives so for 226 00:08:34,839 --> 00:08:41,000 example if you buy a zcash coin you're 227 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:42,719 injecting liquidity into that market 228 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,159 you're you know providing you know US 229 00:08:42,719 --> 00:08:45,800 dollar value to that market and are 230 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:48,440 affecting the price actions through your 231 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,519 actions therefore because you're giving 232 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,800 zcash because you're a part of the 233 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:54,760 ecosystem giving zcash value you are 234 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,560 therefore directly funding the teams 235 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,920 that are building on the protocol so 236 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,320 zcash does have this environment where 237 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,480 protocol team teams and core development 238 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,079 teams do answer to the community and 239 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:08,519 have to keep some level of transparency 240 00:09:05,079 --> 00:09:10,000 um up with the community um and that is 241 00:09:08,519 --> 00:09:11,399 something that's been in place and 242 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,800 something that people feel is a really 243 00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:15,480 good aspect of this um and it also keeps 244 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,000 kind of the incentives aligned with the 245 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,519 coin holders and the people developing 246 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,680 on the protocol so these are some 247 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:22,360 arguments that are in favor for it but 248 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:26,519 some arguments that are against it and 249 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:29,200 these are ones that I'm not super um I I 250 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:30,959 don't agree with it like at a I I agree 251 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,640 with like conceptually but in practice I 252 00:09:30,959 --> 00:09:34,800 don't necessarily agree with them but 253 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,519 they are kind of arguments that come out 254 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,160 a lot in the community and other places 255 00:09:36,519 --> 00:09:41,000 and other other ecosystems as well so 256 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,880 the first one is tax on Miners and users 257 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,440 so this is kind of one I struggle with 258 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,480 and I can definitely see both sides to 259 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,680 this argument the argument that I've 260 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,240 been told why it isn't a tax is because 261 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:52,120 it's voluntary so when you're buying 262 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,760 into the zcash ecosystem and buying the 263 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,519 zcash coin and becoming a part of the 264 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,079 project you are consenting to the fact 265 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:00,160 that there is this funding model in 266 00:09:58,079 --> 00:10:02,800 place and if you want to be a part of 267 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,720 this ecosystem you can easily opt out 268 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,200 and move on to another you know project 269 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,040 in the Privacy space that doesn't have 270 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,440 this type of funding model so I I kind 271 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,079 of see that argument where people are 272 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,240 like it's not a tax because it is 273 00:10:12,079 --> 00:10:17,399 voluntary and tax is involuntary by 274 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,880 Nature kind of the better argument and 275 00:10:17,399 --> 00:10:22,360 the better perspective that I would 276 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:24,279 personally look at it is that by 277 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,000 providing price by providing you know 278 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:27,680 liquidity into the market and being a 279 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,839 part of the ecosystem that funds the 280 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:31,399 zcash protocol development teams you 281 00:10:29,839 --> 00:10:34,200 were entrusting them with your 282 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:36,040 investment in a way and you're kind of 283 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,519 you know not incentivized to kind of 284 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,720 build on things yourself because there 285 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:42,000 is a funding model in place that that is 286 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,760 giving teams the opportunity to build um 287 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,079 that is directly kind of funded by the 288 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,800 protocol and the price of the coin so 289 00:10:46,079 --> 00:10:50,360 you're kind of entrusting a team to kind 290 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,399 of build on this technology and if 291 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,440 they're not successful then you're going 292 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,360 to be kind of hurting in the end as well 293 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,519 as them but yourself as well so there's 294 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,480 kind of two arguments I wouldn't 295 00:10:57,519 --> 00:11:01,480 necessarily look at as a tax but ites 296 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,200 kind of put kind of the control of the 297 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:06,040 investment more into um um the teams 298 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,279 building on the protocol rather than not 299 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,920 the other argument is that it 300 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:10,200 centralizes control for protocol 301 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,120 development and this is one that I'm 302 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,680 actually in agreement with because if 303 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,839 you look at the current structure of the 304 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:17,920 zcash Development Fund there's three 305 00:11:15,839 --> 00:11:19,600 organizations who receive funding and 306 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,120 one of those organizations the community 307 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,600 grants program rolls up to the zcash 308 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,639 foundation so there's only two legal 309 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,440 legally like um domicile or like legal 310 00:11:27,639 --> 00:11:31,120 organizations that are receiving funding 311 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,440 and they're both domiciled in the United 312 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,399 States so it might not necessarily 313 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,200 centralize let's say the number of 314 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:39,320 developers or builders on the protocol 315 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,600 because people can apply for funding via 316 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,600 the the grants programs but it does 317 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,639 inhibit people from let's say for 318 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:48,320 example countries that are um sanctioned 319 00:11:45,639 --> 00:11:50,240 by ofac are not able to build on the 320 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,120 zcash protocol because all of the dev 321 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,920 fund funding goes directly into um us 322 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,440 domicile organizations and that is a 323 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,639 major issue in my opinion within Dev 324 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,920 fund discussions that are currently 325 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:01,560 happening right now because as a 326 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:03,040 community we're discussing what the next 327 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:05,120 Dev fund is going to look like if we 328 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,519 have one and what it would look like um 329 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,240 coming in 2024 during the next having 330 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:10,680 we're saying that a lot of community 331 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,800 members are recommending that two more 332 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:15,399 organizations receive funding so 333 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,160 dividing up the P even further and then 334 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:19,000 also that those two organizations need 335 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,440 to be domiciled outside of the United 336 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,720 States so there is an acknowledgement 337 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,839 within the community that this is an 338 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,279 issue and there are currently 339 00:12:22,839 --> 00:12:26,560 discussions on how we can mitigate that 340 00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:28,440 um and then the last one is there's 341 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,800 negative price impact on the coin due to 342 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,680 20% of these coins um block rewards 343 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,160 being allocated for Fiat liquidation to 344 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:37,040 fund the operations of these three 345 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,480 organizations and to fund grants and Etc 346 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,519 um I don't know if I necessarily agree 347 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,199 with this one because you know zcash 348 00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:45,440 mining isn't Asic resistant and it is 349 00:12:43,199 --> 00:12:47,079 largely centralized at this point and I 350 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,600 would imagine that most of the miners of 351 00:12:47,079 --> 00:12:51,199 the zcash protocol are liquidating funds 352 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,399 um to support their operations so the 353 00:12:51,199 --> 00:12:54,880 kind of the argument that I've seen in 354 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:56,360 the forums recently as well is that you 355 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,079 know even though these coins are being 356 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,199 liquidated to fund development they 357 00:12:58,079 --> 00:13:02,959 would largely be liquidated anyways if 358 00:13:00,199 --> 00:13:04,760 we did not have um the current structure 359 00:13:02,959 --> 00:13:08,320 in place so these are the arguments at 360 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:11,199 large against the dev fund model and now 361 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,920 for my arguments um and kind of concerns 362 00:13:11,199 --> 00:13:15,160 with the dev fund model I think the 363 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,880 first is it can create a lack of urgency 364 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,240 due to this this idea of security and 365 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,480 sustainability and I don't mean a lack 366 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,600 of urgency with the protocol development 367 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,360 teams because if you look at the zcash 368 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,399 protocol and a lot of the technology 369 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,079 that's been built um especially the 370 00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:32,600 technology that's been using that's been 371 00:13:30,079 --> 00:13:34,320 used by other projects in the ecosystem 372 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,680 there is a high level of urgency there's 373 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,480 a high level of talent um and there's a 374 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:41,000 high level of production with teams 375 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,680 developing on the zcash protocol my 376 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,839 concern is kind of what I mentioned 377 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:47,160 earlier is that it creates this divide 378 00:13:44,839 --> 00:13:50,240 between coin holders and 379 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,399 investors um per se and users versus 380 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,199 teams that are building on the protocol 381 00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:56,440 because there's no incentivization for 382 00:13:54,199 --> 00:13:58,680 someone to voluntarily contribute 383 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,680 therefore there's a lack of urgency as a 384 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:03,720 coin ER to actively try and and and and 385 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,440 create change because you're kind of 386 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,279 giving the torch to these organizations 387 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,639 who are funded when and you're not 388 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:12,120 funded because it's kind of like this 389 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:13,959 funer versus funded um divide and for me 390 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,720 which is the biggest problem with this 391 00:14:13,959 --> 00:14:17,560 entire funding model is that it limits 392 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,800 opportunities for people to contribute 393 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:22,160 to the protocol kind of take a stake in 394 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,519 their own investment and their own usage 395 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,920 and further um it discourages voluntary 396 00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:28,000 contribution and this is kind of the 397 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,720 point I want to I want to talk about the 398 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,560 most today um during this talk um and 399 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,519 something I'm trying to bring up in the 400 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,240 zcash community right now because if you 401 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:39,360 look at the current funding model it's 402 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,320 not just for let's say developers and 403 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,519 engineers and people maintaining the 404 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,480 protocol it's also for things like 405 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:49,440 marketing um Global regulatory relations 406 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,560 US policy work it's also for things like 407 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:54,199 Partnerships and advocating for zcash at 408 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,040 exchanges centralized or decentralized 409 00:14:54,199 --> 00:14:58,519 um and also Partnerships with other 410 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,320 protocols this is all done you know by 411 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:02,279 organization who are receiving um de 412 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,639 fund money and it further extends into 413 00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:07,680 things like on the grounds Grassroots 414 00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:10,199 adoption um um education projects 415 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,360 podcasts Etc if you kind of go into 416 00:15:10,199 --> 00:15:13,720 zcash Twitter um this is a really good 417 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,800 example and you kind of see the most 418 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,399 active account I would say 90% of them 419 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,560 um the ones who are very active in kind 420 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:21,800 of talking about zcash every day maybe 421 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,880 this isn't the right number but kind of 422 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,720 seems that way 80 to 90% of them are 423 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,240 maybe recipients of the zcash 424 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,199 Development Fund even if you don't think 425 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,720 they are um because things like the 426 00:15:29,199 --> 00:15:32,279 global ambassador program and all these 427 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,600 different things have created an 428 00:15:32,279 --> 00:15:35,199 incentive model to where if you 429 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,079 contribute to zcash there funding 430 00:15:35,199 --> 00:15:39,199 available and you can request funding 431 00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:40,759 and will likely get it the problem with 432 00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:42,839 that is that in my mind it's not 433 00:15:40,759 --> 00:15:44,959 sustainable and it also when it becomes 434 00:15:42,839 --> 00:15:47,120 unsustainable it's going to discourage 435 00:15:44,959 --> 00:15:48,759 voluntary contributors so kind of what I 436 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,079 see in the future is that well the 437 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:52,000 having the block rewards going to get 438 00:15:50,079 --> 00:15:53,600 smaller therefore less money is going to 439 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,720 be put into the protocol if the price of 440 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,560 zcash doesn't appreciate and we're going 441 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,240 to add more organizations so the fund is 442 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,319 going to be further divided so there's L 443 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,360 allocation available for people who want 444 00:16:01,319 --> 00:16:05,800 to build on the protocol so if you're 445 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,639 currently doing something around like 446 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,199 education or something online and you're 447 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:12,000 doing it voluntarily and you see someone 448 00:16:10,199 --> 00:16:13,759 doing it and they're getting paid the 449 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,079 incentive model ties back to the Deb 450 00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:17,079 fund and you're going to see that person 451 00:16:15,079 --> 00:16:19,079 and say well I want to receive the same 452 00:16:17,079 --> 00:16:20,480 type of funding because that's fair and 453 00:16:19,079 --> 00:16:22,000 that's the incentive model that's in 454 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,000 place because there's that's just the 455 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,759 way it's been constructed indirect um in 456 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,079 my in my mind unintentionally but that's 457 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:29,519 the way it is so people are going to 458 00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:31,199 apply for Grants so what you're kind 459 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:32,720 starting to see in the zcash community 460 00:16:31,199 --> 00:16:35,440 is that everyone who comes into to the 461 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,880 zcash community and starts contributing 462 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,800 largely has this idea in this goal to 463 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,800 one day be a part of the zcash 464 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,120 Development Fund and the current state 465 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,199 allows for that because there's enough 466 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,880 funding available but the problem with 467 00:16:45,199 --> 00:16:48,639 that long term is that when funding 468 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,720 shrinks up and we eventually get rid of 469 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:52,920 a Development Fund a lot of people are 470 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,680 going to stop receive receiving funding 471 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,079 and they might quit their advocacy for 472 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,639 the zcash protocol um and then people 473 00:16:57,079 --> 00:17:00,240 who come in and don't receive grants or 474 00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:01,680 don't receive funding at all might be 475 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,000 disincentivized to continue 476 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,559 participating in zcash which creates an 477 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,360 even more isolated Community um so what 478 00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:10,959 I'm starting to see right now is that we 479 00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:13,400 don't have enough um incentives to 480 00:17:10,959 --> 00:17:15,120 voluntarily contribute I created a 481 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,640 project called Zeo to create those 482 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:19,120 incentives but eventually all the 483 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,959 volunteer voluntary contributors and I 484 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:22,919 had conversations and they decided that 485 00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:25,160 it would be best that the pro the pro 486 00:17:22,919 --> 00:17:26,400 program received funding so even a 487 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,720 project that was intended to be 488 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,080 voluntary ended up receiving funds via 489 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,360 the zcash um development Pro um fund 490 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,600 through zcg so there are some really big 491 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,559 concerns here that we need to address 492 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,280 and in the current discussions um need 493 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:41,039 to be aware of as we as we talk about 494 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,720 the next Dev fund and all of these 495 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:44,600 discussions are ongoing and after the 496 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,320 after the um talk here I'll link the The 497 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,880 Forum posts where people can follow 498 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,600 along and what I'm starting to encourage 499 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,600 people within zcash is to start looking 500 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,440 at how the Monero Community um how a lot 501 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,400 of Monero community members are just 502 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,320 voluntarily contributing and relying on 503 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,120 things like Community donations which I 504 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,919 think is a very good model for things 505 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:06,840 like Grassroots adoption podcasts Etc 506 00:18:03,919 --> 00:18:09,520 because one it creates more of an 507 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,080 incentive Mission alignment incentive 508 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,120 but also longterm it's much more 509 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,240 sustainable because this funding model 510 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:16,840 cannot exist forever um and the last 511 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,360 thing is and this is a very like minor 512 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,440 thing but organizations who denominate 513 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,720 in Ze can be hit really hard during like 514 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,440 price volatility so for example Ze Hub 515 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,919 has an open source Bounty program where 516 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,039 if you do a newsletter for example you 517 00:18:25,919 --> 00:18:31,000 can make a $25 Bounty paid in Shield of 518 00:18:28,039 --> 00:18:33,000 zcash um these types of programs who are 519 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,640 denominated in Ze so we when we raised 520 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:38,480 that Grant we raised it at like 280 521 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,640 zcash coins versus a Fiat amount um so 522 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,520 when we raised it it was $155,000 and 523 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,039 now the grant is worth $111,000 because 524 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,840 the price is depreciated so the funding 525 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:50,280 model um because people are so used to 526 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,080 like Fiat um denominations when it's 527 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,640 denominated in Ze you kind of lose a lot 528 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,240 of purchasing power and ability so 529 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,960 that's an issue as well so kind of 530 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,559 solutions that we talk about with these 531 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,440 problems is if you look at things like 532 00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:03,799 retroactively rewarding Builders that's 533 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,520 something that's starting to um be done 534 00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:07,159 in the zcash community so for example 535 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,760 doing the zcash spam attack that's been 536 00:19:07,159 --> 00:19:11,440 happening over the last year where um 537 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,880 people have been filling blocks of 538 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,880 transactions uh a developer um at a 539 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,960 zcash fork created a wallet in a wallet 540 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,520 syncing mechanism that performed well 541 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,600 during the spam attack and won the 542 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:24,159 majority of wallet like market share for 543 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,840 zcash wallets and instead of being they 544 00:19:24,159 --> 00:19:27,600 were they were not funded by the grants 545 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,799 program so they were not a wallet um 546 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,120 company that was being active funded so 547 00:19:29,799 --> 00:19:32,799 because they built the best product they 548 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:35,120 were able to retroactively request 549 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:36,919 funding and receive that um for building 550 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:39,720 the best prod product so that for me 551 00:19:36,919 --> 00:19:41,679 instead of kind of funding projects on 552 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,240 the basis that they might succeed 553 00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:46,960 retroactively funding projects um 554 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,480 retroactively funding them gives 555 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,960 projects an opportunity to build the 556 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,640 best solution and then request funding 557 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,840 for it and that comes with its own set 558 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,120 of trade-offs like you're building 559 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,240 something in hopes that you might get 560 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,840 funding um but kind of creating more of 561 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,679 those incentive models might lead to 562 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,400 better output versus um I guess broken 563 00:20:00,679 --> 00:20:05,440 promises per se I think another solution 564 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,120 that we're starting to see um is 565 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,159 creating more programs whose role is to 566 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:11,120 redistribute block rewards if the zcash 567 00:20:09,159 --> 00:20:13,880 dev fund model is in place so for 568 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,600 example um zhub like I just mentioned an 569 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,440 organization that I created which is now 570 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,200 managed by another team has an open 571 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,159 source Bounty program where it takes 572 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,200 some of the block rewards and then just 573 00:20:21,159 --> 00:20:24,400 pays out pays it out to contributors and 574 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,520 complete bounties so that's 575 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,679 redistributing um to people who just 576 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:32,240 complete tasks instead of kind of going 577 00:20:28,679 --> 00:20:34,159 through a salary or Grant process like 578 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,919 the other um other distrib 579 00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:37,280 redistributions of the block rewards and 580 00:20:35,919 --> 00:20:38,679 you look at programs like zcash 581 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,960 Foundation has implemented something 582 00:20:38,679 --> 00:20:43,200 called the minor grants program where 583 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,320 you can receive a grant between Z to 584 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,080 $25,000 and they're instead of saying 585 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,440 we're going to hire people to kind of 586 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,720 come in and work here full-time and work 587 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,880 on multiple projects we're just going to 588 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,159 pay grants out to individual 589 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,880 contributors who want to work on one 590 00:20:52,159 --> 00:20:55,480 thing so that's a program that I'm 591 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,480 currently a part of writing a research 592 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,960 research report um that was done through 593 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,480 that program and it's a lot easier to 594 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,520 work on zcash potentially part-time at a 595 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,520 very kind of minuscule level and still 596 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,400 receive funding so that's something I'm 597 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,480 seeing kind of be a good opportunity and 598 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,600 it also is a good thing for localization 599 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,159 of funds so if you want to localize um 600 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,919 Grassroots adoption and you want to use 601 00:21:13,159 --> 00:21:16,400 the de fund model for that you can 602 00:21:14,919 --> 00:21:19,039 create more organizations that are 603 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,720 spread across the world um redistribute 604 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:22,559 block rewards to those organizations and 605 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,240 then those organizations can further 606 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:27,000 redistribute the block rewards to 607 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,559 incentivize building um kind of 608 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,240 applications or things within those 609 00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:31,720 communities that are much more localized 610 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,039 than than people within the United 611 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,320 States um could could potentially 612 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:37,960 imagine so I think kind of localizing 613 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,000 those those redistributions is important 614 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,400 as well I think one thing that we could 615 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,320 definitely learn from the Monero 616 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,760 Community is 617 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,679 establishing a ecosystem where more 618 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,120 products um can be acquired and more 619 00:21:47,679 --> 00:21:51,520 services can be acquired in shielded 620 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:53,440 Zack So currently if you look at kind of 621 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,320 the the market well a good example of 622 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,520 this is like I tweeted once a video of 623 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,000 me using Monero to buy something and 624 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,120 someone commented they're able to kind 625 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,039 of have 50% of their grocery bill paid 626 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,520 for in Monero and I think that's like a 627 00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:07,039 really cool thing that I don't think is 628 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,000 necessarily available in the zcash 629 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:11,400 community right now um and we don't have 630 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,640 an active kind of like pay with stuff 631 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,159 pay for stuff with zcash um in in um in 632 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,200 the community as well so kind of looking 633 00:22:16,159 --> 00:22:20,360 at how other communities have tried to 634 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,919 drive quote unquote like circular 635 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,600 economies and economies that are kind of 636 00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:26,440 outside of Fiat um we can kind of learn 637 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,880 some lessons on how we can directly 638 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:32,200 accept zcash um in and encourage you 639 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,440 know suppliers and vendors and different 640 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,760 you know service providers to accept 641 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,240 zcash as well so people can become less 642 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,000 dependent on thirdparty applications 643 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,760 with for example a lot of zers use 644 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,520 something called flexa which is a 645 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,200 thirdparty application where you have to 646 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,720 kyc um to acquire goods and services and 647 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,279 and that is a good solution in in in the 648 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,240 interim but it's not a sustainable 649 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:54,679 solution and not an optimal solution 650 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,159 long term so we need to look at how 651 00:22:54,679 --> 00:22:58,600 other communities have done this um and 652 00:22:57,159 --> 00:23:00,760 that could potentially also be Revenue 653 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,559 streams for Builders as well um so we 654 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,559 could potentially move away from from 655 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:06,600 specifically just relying on dev fund 656 00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:08,120 and then also begin discussions where 657 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,679 alternative funding mechanisms are 658 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,960 discussed we can look at you know kind 659 00:23:10,679 --> 00:23:15,880 of constructing nonprofits that are that 660 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,520 rely on community donations or donations 661 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,279 from Individual parties for example one 662 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,640 of the organizations seeking out 663 00:23:20,279 --> 00:23:24,200 Development Fund U money in 2024 is 664 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,559 called shielded labs and for their first 665 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,559 year of operations where they have you 666 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:30,320 know a project leader and then obviously 667 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,440 a couple developers they're they're 668 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,159 being funded by individual donations and 669 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,559 have a runway for one year to have a 670 00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:36,840 couple developers on staff and then 671 00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:40,480 we'll look to scale with Development 672 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:42,919 Fund in 2024 so that's great I don't I 673 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,600 don't think shielded Labs shouldn't um 674 00:23:42,919 --> 00:23:45,640 kind of request Development Fund money I 675 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,720 think that they should have that 676 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,760 opportunity but at the same time can we 677 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,960 think of the the the first model that 678 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,360 they have kind of receiving donations in 679 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,520 scale organizations that way scaling 680 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:58,640 organizations through through profitable 681 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,520 products So currently in zcash I don't 682 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,039 think any of the wallet companies have 683 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,559 um have for-profit models in place I 684 00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:06,600 think kind of figuring out how we can 685 00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:09,240 create more 686 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,159 for-profit models would be be would be 687 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,279 optimal and then additionally for 688 00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:16,080 example one of my friends runs a zcash 689 00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:16,760 podcast and his grant that he received 690 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,520 was 691 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,320 $6,000 my mind kind of goes well if the 692 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,640 zcash community was longing for a 693 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,080 quality podcast wouldn't the community 694 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,880 be able to raise $6,000 instead of 695 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,039 having to go through the Z the community 696 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,760 grants program in the dev fund so 697 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:33,480 because all of these incentives right 698 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,600 now are so correlated with the 699 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,440 Development Fund model the community 700 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,120 isn't incentivized to actually raise 701 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,279 funds and kind of donate funds to 702 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:44,200 projects they think are worthwhile which 703 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,840 for me it is more of a question of not 704 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,679 centralization but more importantly 705 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,080 sustainability so we need to think of 706 00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:51,520 how we can move past these um move past 707 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,120 the current de fund model and look to 708 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,799 other look to other ways and there are 709 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,679 solutions that are being built to work 710 00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:58,039 on those things but we definitely need 711 00:24:56,679 --> 00:25:00,120 to scale their efforts and make them 712 00:24:58,039 --> 00:25:02,840 more widespread and more widely used in 713 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:04,399 zcash and to finish um kind of some 714 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,880 points I want to kind of drive home 715 00:25:04,399 --> 00:25:10,039 before we go to Q&A um there are a 716 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,720 number of privacy Technologies um that 717 00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:14,240 have been built by ECC and zcash 718 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,399 Foundation which have been funded by the 719 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,200 block rewards and and the develop um Dev 720 00:25:16,399 --> 00:25:21,039 fund they're being used industrywide so 721 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,960 a great example is tornado cash if you 722 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:26,919 went on the tornado cash website um if 723 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,640 you go on it it it credits zcash for 724 00:25:26,919 --> 00:25:31,679 being kind of the code that inspir fired 725 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,640 the tornado cash um um um application 726 00:25:31,679 --> 00:25:35,720 and protocol so that's one example 727 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,000 within ethereum where the zcash de fund 728 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,640 is benefited um you know a 729 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,720 cryptocurrency ecosystem and if you look 730 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,039 at the the recent release of the Halo 2 731 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,919 Pro Halo 2 zero knowledge proof that's 732 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:47,600 currently be used being used by projects 733 00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:50,039 like scroll in the ethereum space and 734 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,880 also um projects like darki so you have 735 00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:53,200 a wide array of different um projects 736 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,000 who are you know have different 737 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,720 incentives and different purposes for 738 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,320 for for their existence but they're 739 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,039 using um technology is a part of their 740 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,240 their overall stack that's from from 741 00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:05,880 zcash so a small part of their tech 742 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:08,159 technology stack is from from um from um 743 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,760 zcash um organizations or was created 744 00:26:08,159 --> 00:26:11,279 there so I think these are really good 745 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,120 things and if I've even seen some 746 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:15,320 conversations within um the Monero 747 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,360 Community about potentially using Halo 748 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,399 to Zer knowledge proofs as a part of the 749 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,840 the overall Monero protocol and I think 750 00:26:19,399 --> 00:26:23,039 these are really good things because the 751 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:26,279 majority of zcash um technology is 752 00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:27,559 licensed under MIT or apachi 2.0 so I 753 00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:29,919 think these are really good things where 754 00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:32,080 the Development Fund is benefiting the 755 00:26:29,919 --> 00:26:33,399 larger um cryptocurrency ecosystem at 756 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,360 large and I think that's a very good 757 00:26:33,399 --> 00:26:37,120 thing and we need to acknowledge that um 758 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:39,200 even if it's the the model that a lot of 759 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,799 individuals want to participate in and 760 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,520 if you don't want to participate in like 761 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:45,320 my honest you know response is that 762 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,399 there are other options in the 763 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,679 marketplace um where you can kind of 764 00:26:47,399 --> 00:26:51,880 sell your zcash and move elsewhere so 765 00:26:49,679 --> 00:26:54,120 for example if I wasn't happy with the 766 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,000 zcash dev fund and kind of the results 767 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:59,440 that it's producing I could easily sell 768 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,120 my zcash for Monero and just and focus 769 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,559 all of my time and energy in the Monero 770 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:05,559 Community um and there are tradeoffs for 771 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,440 that and I would say that people who who 772 00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:09,720 do that you're getting an equally strong 773 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,880 option for privacy privacy preserving 774 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,640 cryptocurrency and it doesn't have the 775 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,159 same model and again trade-offs but 776 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,120 there are options in the marketplace 777 00:27:15,159 --> 00:27:19,120 where where everyone's not bound to use 778 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:20,520 zcash if they don't like the current 779 00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:22,760 state of affairs and if they don't like 780 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,120 the direction that the protocol is going 781 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,399 and then the last thing I want to drive 782 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,880 home which was at the point I was 783 00:27:25,399 --> 00:27:29,640 talking about earlier is that we could 784 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,679 potentially use a culture shift um 785 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,799 within zcash that could Aid with it with 786 00:27:31,679 --> 00:27:36,640 Aid Us in terms of long-term stability 787 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:38,880 we we can have a funding mechanism even 788 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,519 if it's in the at the protocol level 789 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,840 that funds things like core protocol 790 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:44,880 development and and maintenance but we 791 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:48,760 as a community need to start 792 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:50,320 prioritizing um the highest highest um 793 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,159 highest priority items that we need to 794 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,960 have funded and fund those potentially 795 00:27:52,159 --> 00:27:55,840 via the protocol and look at different 796 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,440 ways things like Community funding and 797 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,919 different funding mechanisms for things 798 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,799 like Grassroots adoption marketing comms 799 00:27:59,919 --> 00:28:04,480 Etc and I don't mean that we need to cut 800 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:06,360 off funding from all the organizations 801 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,080 and even the organizations that I that 802 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,880 I've worked at and I'm currently 803 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,880 affiliated with but what I'm saying is 804 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,000 we need to kind of have a plan of how 805 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,480 these organizations become 806 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,679 self-sustaining and create funding 807 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,120 models outside of block rewards and how 808 00:28:16,679 --> 00:28:20,480 we can fund as a Community Fund these 809 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,240 these projects and these things to 810 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,720 voluntary contributors and Community 811 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,320 contributors um outside of block rewards 812 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,360 as well so we need to start having those 813 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,720 discussions and look towards a future 814 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:33,480 where one pro core protocol development 815 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,279 is done via the zcash a zcash Dev fund 816 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,720 like model and then eventually an 817 00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:39,880 environment where this doesn't exist at 818 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,480 all so these are kind of all of my 819 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,080 thoughts on it the reason I brought this 820 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,679 up today I wanted to talk about this is 821 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,320 because this is an ongoing debate right 822 00:28:44,679 --> 00:28:49,039 now in the zcash community because we're 823 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,600 coming up to our next having in 2024 so 824 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:52,279 I would really encourage everyone here 825 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,720 to follow along with those discussions 826 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:56,440 and potentially offer your thoughts and 827 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,559 opinions and why monero's model is 828 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,799 potentially Superior to zcash because if 829 00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:02,200 you do look at the current rate of 830 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:05,200 adoption I would agree that Monero is 831 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,880 experiencing a um a better um a better 832 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,799 adoption rate so I think kind of 833 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,559 learning from each other's experiences 834 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:12,279 year could be really beneficial and as 835 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:13,720 long as all the technology that built is 836 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,360 fully open source then it's going to 837 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,039 benefit everyone that's involved in the 838 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,039 ecosystem at 839 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,200 large do you love coffee and Monera as 840 00:29:26,679 --> 00:29:31,919 much as we do consider making gratuitous 841 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:34,039 dorg your daily cup pay with Monera for 842 00:29:31,919 --> 00:29:36,360 premium fresh beans and if you like what 843 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:39,200 you taste send a digital cash tip 844 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,600 directly to the farmers that made it 845 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,880 possible proceeds help us grow this 846 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:48,019 channel gratuitous and 847 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,019 [Music] 848 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,880 Monero um these are you know obviously 849 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,720 some of my thoughts and and here happy 850 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,519 to answer some questions um now I do 851 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,919 want to clarify that I'm not the most 852 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:04,559 technical person in the world so if I am 853 00:30:02,919 --> 00:30:06,679 not able to answer your question I'll 854 00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:09,799 I'll surely state that um that I'm not 855 00:30:06,679 --> 00:30:11,399 able to so take some time for that now 856 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:14,679 so yeah if I see any questions in the 857 00:30:11,399 --> 00:30:14,679 comments I I'll go ahead and answer 858 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,360 those give it like another 20 859 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,640 seconds so I see a question here what do 860 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000 you think are or could be the 861 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:36,279 consequences of having limited shorter 862 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,919 term feedback via the Development Fund 863 00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:42,080 um for non-r non-grant recipients like 864 00:30:38,919 --> 00:30:44,519 ECC or ZF so uh and I can't hear you 865 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,960 guys currently um no oh I see you guys 866 00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:48,120 popping up 867 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,760 now um from Mexico I see you guys 868 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,600 popping up and can hear you now so I 869 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,320 guess the question here regarding 870 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,080 feedback do you mean like having shorter 871 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,240 time preferences so not being let's say 872 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,159 like four years of sustainable funding 873 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,240 and having maybe shorter term time 874 00:31:00,159 --> 00:31:04,519 differences 875 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:07,360 that I can hear you now yeah okay I have 876 00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:10,159 a couple of questions um with respect to 877 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,919 the one is with respect to the Deb fund 878 00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:13,440 and one of the major concerns that we 879 00:31:11,919 --> 00:31:16,519 have at least I personally would have in 880 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,840 the mono commit is is how did you 881 00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:21,480 respond to regulators and how they 882 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,559 treated you with respect to the Deb fund 883 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,279 and I don't know if you covered that in 884 00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:29,919 particular with respect to the fin and 885 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:29,919 guidance of 2013 886 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,399 you're 887 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,799 muted sorry and oh sorry so I'm not 888 00:31:43,399 --> 00:31:46,240 familiar with the fencing guidance but I 889 00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:47,840 just want to be clear are you talking 890 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,440 regulatory concerns with regards to like 891 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,279 Securities laws or are you talking you 892 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,080 know more like OFA sanctions like 893 00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:56,639 tornado cash I'm talking about money 894 00:31:54,080 --> 00:32:00,080 laundering uh Money Services business 895 00:31:56,639 --> 00:32:02,559 money transmission Securities loss okay 896 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,519 so I think the the first part is the 897 00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:05,919 answer there is and and I saw the 898 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:08,559 question in the chat so I'll I'll answer 899 00:32:05,919 --> 00:32:10,799 that as well after this um the answer I 900 00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:12,600 would provide there is we can't it's a 901 00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:14,480 neutral protocol so we can't say that 902 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,039 people aren't going to use this protocol 903 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,760 for things that potentially governments 904 00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:19,519 don't like I think one thing I have an 905 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,159 issue with calling things um moneya 906 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:23,799 laundering or or or criminal activity is 907 00:32:22,159 --> 00:32:25,519 that we can't necessarily Define that 908 00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:27,519 because jurisdictions change and their 909 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:29,039 laws change so I want to clarify that 910 00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,639 but with regards to like the United 911 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:33,679 States the one thing we have to do as a 912 00:32:30,639 --> 00:32:35,279 community is build um more use cases 913 00:32:33,679 --> 00:32:37,159 that are I guess for more normal people 914 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:39,200 so I I think within Monero there's a 915 00:32:37,159 --> 00:32:41,799 website that lists all of the Monero 916 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,080 vendors um that accept Monero within 917 00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:45,480 like non Dart net markets and I think 918 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,880 that building things like that and 919 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,440 having those amount of vendors and those 920 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,639 amount of use cases that prove that 921 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,600 people just want to use um a currency 922 00:32:50,639 --> 00:32:54,159 that provides more privacy is the best 923 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,720 way to combat against regulators and 924 00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:59,360 then also share that like things like 925 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,919 back doors Etc um are just bad for for 926 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,679 National Security because they can be 927 00:33:00,919 --> 00:33:04,919 broken um um if we give someone a back 928 00:33:03,679 --> 00:33:06,320 to door then those things can be broken 929 00:33:04,919 --> 00:33:08,320 so kind of making those arguments on 930 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,440 that side and then again I'm not a 931 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,120 regulator and I'm not a policy advocate 932 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,039 so my my information there is probably 933 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,519 not the best and then the security side 934 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:18,840 of it is that um the zcash community I 935 00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:20,080 know I've mentioned here like investment 936 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,279 and there is that side of it in the 937 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,559 token price appreciation but overall 938 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:25,760 people are trying to build something 939 00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:28,159 with real world utility that's used to 940 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,519 be you know either a unit of account um 941 00:33:28,159 --> 00:33:33,320 a savings mechanism um things that can 942 00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:34,880 be a medium of exchange so and no one's 943 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,440 promising anybody that we're going to 944 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,559 increase their investment by building on 945 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,840 this protocol and I think another way to 946 00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:44,240 kind of further kind of alleviate fears 947 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,639 there is by um having more organizations 948 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,639 receiving death fund money that are not 949 00:33:45,639 --> 00:33:50,440 subject to us regulations so those are 950 00:33:47,639 --> 00:33:51,760 kind of the the main points there um I 951 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,399 know those aren't great answers but 952 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,000 those are those are my perspectives 953 00:33:53,399 --> 00:33:58,240 thank you very much my second question 954 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,799 my last question second question is 955 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:04,360 uh what if anything is your thoughts and 956 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:06,639 response on the European Union um micaa 957 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:11,240 which article 958 00:34:06,639 --> 00:34:12,960 763 would technically ban um privacy 959 00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:15,280 protecting 960 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,119 cryptocurrencies yeah so I think if you 961 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,639 have something like that in place like 962 00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:21,480 regulatory 963 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:23,159 um kind of overreach then you do have 964 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,879 funding models within the zcash that are 965 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:27,359 dedicated to fight against that and kind 966 00:34:24,879 --> 00:34:28,599 of go to like take these take these take 967 00:34:27,359 --> 00:34:29,919 take these these regulations to court 968 00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:32,040 and fight against them combat against 969 00:34:29,919 --> 00:34:33,639 them but I do also acknowledge the need 970 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,000 for zcash to potentially have the 971 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:37,359 ability to go dark and and kind of be 972 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,399 used in an environment that's 973 00:34:37,359 --> 00:34:42,079 adversarial um so we need to build for 974 00:34:39,399 --> 00:34:43,480 both I think the zcash approach has been 975 00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:46,560 kind of more to the side of work with 976 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,159 regulators and show them um kind of why 977 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,720 this is a good thing for Citizens and we 978 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:52,520 haven't really prioritized the other 979 00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:54,919 side of it but I think there is a 980 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,599 growing sentiment in the community that 981 00:34:54,919 --> 00:34:58,920 we need to be a that we need to be ready 982 00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:00,880 for those types of regul and kind of um 983 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,640 be prepared to use it in the event that 984 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:06,359 it's made um um banned essentially but 985 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,839 uh for one yeah so from what I 986 00:35:06,359 --> 00:35:09,440 understand the electric coin companies 987 00:35:07,839 --> 00:35:11,560 actively working with European 988 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,480 Regulators are you aware of the 989 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:16,920 litigation pending litigation United 990 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,839 States that could put um chin analysis 991 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,800 on 992 00:35:17,839 --> 00:35:26,400 trial I'm not no okay um because that's 993 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,560 actually coming in U pretty soon so I 994 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,280 thought you may wanted to check in that 995 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,880 and maybe find a way you can help the 996 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,720 attorneys involved um 997 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,920 because that information yeah I'll 998 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:39,720 forward that information to um to the uh 999 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,960 to the regulator guys at ECC for sure 1000 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:43,320 I'll get and I'll look I'll look into 1001 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,320 that for 1002 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:49,920 sure awesome 1003 00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:53,880 um I think you guys froze up in Mexico 1004 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:57,880 City in the chat can you guys still hear 1005 00:35:53,880 --> 00:36:01,200 me um if if you can I'm go ahead and 1006 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,040 answer this question uh cool so the so 1007 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,319 the the question here was around what do 1008 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,960 you think the consequences are for 1009 00:36:04,319 --> 00:36:07,359 having shorter term feedback by the 1010 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,400 Development Fund for like non-grant 1011 00:36:07,359 --> 00:36:12,880 recipients um like let's say like ECC 1012 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,079 and the zcash foundation so if they 1013 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,880 profail they fail to perform kind of 1014 00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:20,760 like up to like a satisfactory um um 1015 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,240 model so that's actually something that 1016 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,800 someone just no one's mentioned that in 1017 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,560 the forums in the recent discussions so 1018 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,640 someone actually mentioned like we need 1019 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,680 to make the dev fund smaller to put more 1020 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:33,119 pressure on the organizations um kind of 1021 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:36,400 you know working on it I think that is 1022 00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:39,079 actually my idea here would be is that 1023 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,760 if we could kind of decrease the years 1024 00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:42,319 kind of guaranteed to organizations or 1025 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:46,119 kind of create a way for the community 1026 00:36:42,319 --> 00:36:48,160 to reallocate funding so for example the 1027 00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:49,240 there was a for post a couple days ago 1028 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,240 where someone in the community 1029 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:53,359 recommended that the zcash community 1030 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:55,400 grants reallocate some of their funding 1031 00:36:53,359 --> 00:36:57,079 to ECC and ZF because it's not being 1032 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,560 used um so they have a large treasury 1033 00:36:57,079 --> 00:37:01,760 it's not being used but that currently 1034 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,440 in in the the protocol consens um 1035 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,480 protocol mechanism is not allowed like 1036 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:09,680 ECC and ZF are not allowed to receive 1037 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,200 grants so that's kind of the inverse um 1038 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,599 so that's actually being discussed of 1039 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,359 like can we allocate more money to 1040 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:16,520 developers at ECC and ZF so they can 1041 00:37:14,359 --> 00:37:18,920 work on these problems that's being 1042 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,720 discussed it's not being well supported 1043 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,560 um from my kind of take on it so the 1044 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:26,480 inverse of that is like can we take away 1045 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:28,640 Dev funding um from from organizations 1046 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,280 who aren't kind of meeting meeting the 1047 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,800 standards that are required for them I 1048 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,000 actually think is a great way because it 1049 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,880 can it can hold up um the whole 1050 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,359 organizations to a higher standard and I 1051 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,839 would actually take that a step further 1052 00:37:38,359 --> 00:37:41,520 and say I would be more in support of 1053 00:37:40,839 --> 00:37:44,079 the 1054 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:48,800 organization's um individual kind of 1055 00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:50,440 teams and and kind of um let's say uh um 1056 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,040 what's the word I'm looking for kind of 1057 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,359 like individual teams and kind of 1058 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,599 segments of the organization so for 1059 00:37:53,359 --> 00:37:58,079 example marketing Community Development 1060 00:37:55,599 --> 00:37:59,760 business uh Partnerships Etc kind of be 1061 00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:01,520 held to their own individual standards 1062 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,480 so for example if one aspect of the 1063 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,240 company is performing really really well 1064 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,079 then maybe even maybe even another 1065 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,319 aspect of the company shouldn't receive 1066 00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:10,040 the funding that they were receiving 1067 00:38:08,319 --> 00:38:11,560 previously um I don't know how that 1068 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,920 works in practice and I don't know if we 1069 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,319 kind of have protocol developers and 1070 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,680 maintainers as one kind of organization 1071 00:38:16,319 --> 00:38:20,800 or one entity and kind of have Marketing 1072 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,359 in other organizations as another but 1073 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,200 having a way to kind of 1074 00:38:22,359 --> 00:38:27,000 decentralize um um kind of 1075 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,400 responsibilities and only fund the ones 1076 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,000 that we are performing up to standard I 1077 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,440 would actually probably be in support of 1078 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,960 that and I would agree that in practice 1079 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:39,680 zcash chain Forks haven't um um kind of 1080 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,079 seen as much activity so we've kind of 1081 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,720 seen that that's not um worked out in 1082 00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:46,240 practice as much um yeah um work worked 1083 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,760 out as well so I would agree with that 1084 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:50,599 idea of kind of holding people to higher 1085 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,200 standards so I'm seeing that Mexico is 1086 00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:54,280 having some 1087 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,280 problems um see if they have any other 1088 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,280 questions 1089 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:05,880 I can't uh Mexico City I can't see hear 1090 00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:08,000 you guys I see you now popped up another 1091 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,800 question we have 1092 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:15,000 here um a question mentioning something 1093 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:17,319 and then we all got cut off um yeah we 1094 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,640 aware of the of the legal 1095 00:39:17,319 --> 00:39:21,960 litigation um with respect to um 1096 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,680 essentially Chan 1097 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:27,400 alysis and the bitco fog 1098 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,640 case uh and if you would be interested 1099 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,280 interested or with people in the 1100 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,760 interested in the ckash community um if 1101 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,079 the attorneys behind the were to reach 1102 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,839 out to you um if you're interested at 1103 00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:41,000 all that's basically my question yeah 1104 00:39:38,839 --> 00:39:42,599 yeah I yeah I heard that bit um before 1105 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:46,240 you got cut off and I think yeah the 1106 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:49,480 best way is um uh to I I'll put I'll put 1107 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:50,920 my Twitter and my my CC specific email 1108 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,400 in the chat and the best way is like 1109 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,119 kind of I can get the information and 1110 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,599 then I can forward that to the relative 1111 00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:59,160 like regulator um Personnel um within 1112 00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:00,839 the community and I I'm sure they'd be 1113 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,800 interested in looking at it and and I 1114 00:40:00,839 --> 00:40:04,760 can pass it on to them because I I can't 1115 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,880 directly I don't work full-time in zcash 1116 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,720 anymore I and I'm not even though I have 1117 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,520 a grant from ZF I don't work and I'm not 1118 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:12,800 a part of the ZF company or team so I 1119 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,240 don't have like direct communic 1120 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,119 communication channels but I do know 1121 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:17,480 them and have their contact information 1122 00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:19,480 I ask the attorneys if they were 1123 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,440 interested in in reaching out to you to 1124 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,680 the seash foundation or to no I if you 1125 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,560 can send me the information I can 1126 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,400 forward it to them for sure for sure or 1127 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,119 I can provide I if you want to contact 1128 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,480 me and I can provide their contact info 1129 00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:34,400 as well yeah um so that's a bit tricky 1130 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,160 right now because all the okay so you 1131 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,200 want me to put it in the chat no no I'll 1132 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,599 I'll put my my Twitter and my email in 1133 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,160 the chat and you can email I can email 1134 00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:46,040 you the information okay perfect for 1135 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:49,880 sure yeah I'll do that much um I think 1136 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:54,440 we're running up on time here so I see 1137 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:57,839 um cool yeah I'll I'll do that this this 1138 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,839 is my email 1139 00:41:01,319 --> 00:41:04,520 proton okay that's my email right there 1140 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,520 and my 1141 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:10,440 Twitter okay and there was one last 1142 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,800 question I see here um how much of the 1143 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,920 folks T folks tend to not contribute 1144 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,480 without funding Trend you mentioned 1145 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,200 might be addressed by a more open ECC 1146 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,920 and ZF development model one might argue 1147 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,680 that ECC has de closed off their 1148 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:27,720 development process over time or perhaps 1149 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:30,280 ZF as well um I I think that I think 1150 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:33,400 from a developer perspective um I've 1151 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,520 seen that that what that has been the 1152 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,960 case and there's not a lot of like 1153 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,280 developer kits there not a lot of 1154 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,800 developer enablement so for example if 1155 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,079 you want to build like an independent 1156 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,839 application on zcash it's the kind of 1157 00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:45,760 learning curve is quite difficult and 1158 00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:46,760 the barrier to entry is quite difficult 1159 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,200 and I don't know if that's been 1160 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,440 intentional or if that's just been like 1161 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:53,760 a product of of um like lack of 1162 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,040 attention over a long time I'm not super 1163 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,880 familiar there but I will say that 1164 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,560 there's new new disc discussions that 1165 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,839 they that people are trying to start um 1166 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,839 advocating for more open development 1167 00:42:02,839 --> 00:42:06,839 environments and advocating for more 1168 00:42:04,839 --> 00:42:09,040 organizations to to work on core 1169 00:42:06,839 --> 00:42:10,920 protocol development um for example 1170 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,680 there's a cryptography team called qedit 1171 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,280 that's building zcash shielded assets 1172 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,200 for example like wrapped ethereum or WRA 1173 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,680 Bitcoin on zcash there's talks about 1174 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,319 getting them involved with core protocol 1175 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,200 development and having them be a 1176 00:42:19,319 --> 00:42:23,119 recipient of the dev fund so we're 1177 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,559 seeing that that that has been a 1178 00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:26,720 consequence perhaps of the 1179 00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:29,119 centralization vector um but we're 1180 00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,079 seeing um we're seeing that that's 1181 00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:33,520 trying to be 1182 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:35,040 alleviated um via GitHub issues and 1183 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:39,800 discussions now that's not really the 1184 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:42,079 case yeah I so again 1185 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,280 um yeah okay so you're you're saying 1186 00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:44,680 that like it's currently not a 1187 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,520 collaborative environment it's closed 1188 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,520 off I think that might be due to the I'm 1189 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,359 speculating here I'm probably providing 1190 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,119 not a great answer um I might that might 1191 00:42:51,359 --> 00:42:55,280 be to the fact that people have left and 1192 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:56,720 started to build on other projects like 1193 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,000 related to privacy so there's stuff 1194 00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,599 going on ethereum there's new layer ones 1195 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,280 happening in Cosmos so people are like 1196 00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:05,760 leaving the zcash community because they 1197 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,040 feel it's not moving at either a rate or 1198 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,240 that's not moving in the direction that 1199 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,800 people want so they become 1200 00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:11,880 disincentivized because they don't work 1201 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,280 at these companies and they go and take 1202 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,559 either the open source Tech and build it 1203 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,720 on their own platforms or they go and 1204 00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:19,160 collaborate with other protocols so yeah 1205 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:20,960 I think people are branching out and 1206 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,960 figuring out new ways so like one of the 1207 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,800 cool projects on Cosmos is like founded 1208 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,160 by like a former ZF developer and a lot 1209 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,960 of like Aztec one of the chief scientist 1210 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,200 say Aztec was actually the person that 1211 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,800 found the zcash inflation bug um 1212 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,640 previous inflation bug back in I think 1213 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:39,480 2017 so people are I think just starting 1214 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:41,119 new things um so the I see another 1215 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,720 question here recipients of the dev fund 1216 00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:44,359 need to go through kyc process and 1217 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:47,680 that's not very consistent with privacy 1218 00:43:44,359 --> 00:43:49,680 principles and it limits um yeah so this 1219 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,520 is something I actually tried to fix 1220 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,839 when we tried to get funding through um 1221 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,480 uh for the the program that I created we 1222 00:43:55,839 --> 00:44:01,640 tried to make it nonky So currently it's 1223 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:04,839 a it ended up being domiciled in the US 1224 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,599 um and we we kind of had to do that by 1225 00:44:04,839 --> 00:44:08,559 Design because we wanted to protect the 1226 00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:10,119 people managing the the Bounty pool 1227 00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:11,240 because you couldn't do it like a dow 1228 00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:13,599 type environment because there's no 1229 00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:15,000 smart contracts for Shield of dcash and 1230 00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:16,400 there's no way to automate that so 1231 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,839 people have to control it and they're 1232 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,760 you know based in these countries and we 1233 00:44:17,839 --> 00:44:22,680 wanted to protect them there wasn't kind 1234 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:25,160 of an appetite to create the amount of 1235 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,920 funding available to help domicile this 1236 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,880 organization overseas like we explored 1237 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,640 that 1238 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,800 I think people are realizing that those 1239 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,440 types of decisions are really 1240 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,119 detrimental and they're forcing people 1241 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,559 um to have to kyc when they're not 1242 00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:39,160 comfortable with it and it's putting off 1243 00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:42,200 contributors so for us and for people 1244 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:44,880 like me we're we're advocating for more 1245 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:48,319 um more we're advocating for people to 1246 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,720 start um um domicil their prospective 1247 00:44:48,319 --> 00:44:52,240 projects potentially in in countries 1248 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:55,000 that have those regulatory environments 1249 00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:57,839 that allow for non kyc um acquisition 1250 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:00,240 and non kyc um like earning non kyc 1251 00:44:57,839 --> 00:45:02,720 zcash and I think the other thing is we 1252 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:05,319 just need to create more of a um 1253 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:08,240 environment that that encourages people 1254 00:45:05,319 --> 00:45:09,920 to use zcash peer-to-peer so we can fund 1255 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:11,280 things you know like Anonymous 1256 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,000 developers can we get community 1257 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,920 fundraising efforts to to help fund 1258 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,040 their own projects and I think those are 1259 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,319 things that like culturally we're just 1260 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,720 going to have to change so to answer 1261 00:45:18,319 --> 00:45:22,559 that question regarding kyc um currently 1262 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,960 the culture is been let's not invest in 1263 00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:25,359 it because it's not a priority we're 1264 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,800 starting to see that's a priority and 1265 00:45:25,359 --> 00:45:29,760 that's hurting the amount of people that 1266 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:33,839 want to participate um and the solutions 1267 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:36,839 are domicil organizations that have are 1268 00:45:33,839 --> 00:45:38,880 friendly to non kyc um participation and 1269 00:45:36,839 --> 00:45:40,000 acquisition of zcash and then the other 1270 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,720 thing is just creating more of a 1271 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,720 peer-to-peer culture where we can you 1272 00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:46,839 know Community fundraise for anonymous 1273 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:49,319 developers and Anonymous contributors 1274 00:45:46,839 --> 00:45:52,240 because sustainably we cannot expect 1275 00:45:49,319 --> 00:45:54,400 everybody to kyc and we cannot expect 1276 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:56,640 everybody to interact with Z zcash in a 1277 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,200 in a kyc fashion my my research grant 1278 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,920 for the foundation is actually on non 1279 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,520 kyc infrastructure and I'll be 1280 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,599 publishing that on August 1 so um if 1281 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,720 you're interested in that I'll be 1282 00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:08,200 posting that on my Twitter as well um 1283 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:09,359 and I'll be working on that over the 1284 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,760 next three months and probably will 1285 00:46:09,359 --> 00:46:13,440 likely consult the help of the inero 1286 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:17,520 community around that 1287 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,520 stuff so I hope that answered your 1288 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,599 question is there 1289 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,920 anything anything else 1290 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:33,599 okay great I think we're a little over 1291 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,319 time so I appreciate everyone for the 1292 00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:37,400 questions and the time and yeah again 1293 00:46:35,319 --> 00:46:39,200 thank you mopia for the opportunity to 1294 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,960 to speak on this today and thank you 1295 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,079 guys so much and and looking forward to 1296 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:47,079 to seeing you guys in the the Twitter 1297 00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:47,079 sphere so have a great day 1298 00:46:49,380 --> 00:46:59,129 [Music] 1299 00:47:02,940 --> 00:47:09,619 [Music]