Latest / Unbilled & Unfiltered's Podcast / She lost her dream home, built a law firm & refuses to be anyone but herself...

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She lost her dream home, built a law firm & refuses to be anyone but herself... · Unbilled & Unfiltered's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host Ben here with another Australian episode of Unbuild and Unfiltered.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Ayora Nation as traditional owners of the land on which we're recording today.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: We pay our respects to elders, past and present.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm very excited to introduce Umguest today.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: She is a remarkable example of what it means to do lord your own way.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And she's been showered with accolades for her unique approach.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: She has been winner of the Australasian Lawyers Rising Star Award, a finalist for Lawyers Weekly 30 Under 30, finalist for ALA Innovator of the Year, emerging leader at the CLM Inspire Award, a local business award winner, four years running.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's honestly impossible to list all of her achievements in this intro.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you may also have seen her online, breaking down the law in plain English.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm of course talking about the founder and principal solicitor of Renee Romanos Legal, the one and only Renee Romanos.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Renee.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: What a beautiful introduction.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm absolutely honored.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it wasn't hard to find that information.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, people have been taking notice of the way you've been doing things, and so have we.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why we invited you here today.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm honestly thrilled that you accepted.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait to really dive into what you think of law, honestly.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's a great place to start at the beginning, of course.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to know, did you always want to study law?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Was this a path you had set out for yourself very early on?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: I knew I liked to argue.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I knew I liked access to justice.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I knew I liked fighting for the underdog.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And once upon a time, I definitely watched Legally Blonde and thought to myself, well, if she can do it, surely I can too.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of the process, unfortunately, and fortunately at the same time.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, life had really thrown things in in a pathway where I didn't know that starting a law firm was on that path.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I'd be in corporate law for a long time.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I was quite lucky to have the opportunity to work with quantists in their legal team, which is one of the really coolest places I've worked.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: And life sort of threw a spare in the works.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: When COVID hit, I had just given birth to my first child and I lost my job.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking to myself, what in the universe am I going to do?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: The world was at a bit of a standstill with COVID.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought to myself, why not kill and practice the law and just see how things go?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time I thought to myself that Pontius was the thing that I should be doing.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Until I had the opportunity to help the everyday person.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt quite blessed that I found my calling in circumstances where I was not looking for that calling.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: The way you say you thought maybe I should practice law and see how it goes.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's a thought that occurs to everyone.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: That I really think that I mean, unfortunately in the industry, I think maybe it seems it's a bit of a reach to go, oh, I law isn't it's tough.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's too hard, it's a lot of work.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I I guess I'm interested, obviously you've put a lot of work in, but how did you back yourself the whole time and really follow through and were was able to motivate yourself to to do what really the hard yards to get to where you are?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Failure is not an option.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: I always say to myself, when you set out to do something, you go and you do it.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: And naturally with life, you get thrown all sorts of different roadblocks.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whether it's through the studies, whether it's through trying to find a job, whether it's through working for that particular employer, everyone has that particular person that makes them think easiest for me.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for myself, I just kept setting myself really complex goals and just being really open to the idea of seeing where I land.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And in circumstances where nothing was handed to me.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: There was never a like, you know, I never had anyone in my family um open the doors to a law firm for me or anything like that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was the first in my family to uh graduate from law school.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was the first solicitor in in my immediate family.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, it was just let's just keep trying.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just figure this out, let's just find the thing that sparks my joy.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like I kept moving into different circles and different places until I found that place.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, surely you you say failure isn't an option, but there must have been setbacks, I assume, right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: How did you navigate the barriers to get through the degree to get to where you are to found your own law firm, which we will talk about definitely?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure there were some things you had to reframe.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some people may look as failures, but it's, you know, maybe it's a temporary setback that you had to push on with.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Plenty, plenty of setbacks.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um if I talk about the one setback that taught me the most lessons.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when I did take the big leap of faith and I started my firm, at the same year, my husband and I bought our dream home.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we had two very little babies, started a new business, just bought our dream home.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And several months after moving into this big, beautiful brand new home, our house burned down.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time I was um operating my business from home and I'd lost everything.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, having courage in circumstances where there was no courage or being vulnerable, that was my courage.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that was the thing that I did to get myself to where I am now, is it takes a whole lot of vulnerability to be courageous.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in circumstances where everything feels like it's too much, too hard, it's just about getting back on the bike and pushing.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: No matter how slow or fast things take, it's just about knowing, backing yourself and telling yourself that failure's not an option and we're only just gonna get through this.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: And to think to myself, that was four years ago, that I was standing in front of my burnt down home, being the only employee of my range of business, to now being able to proudly say that we've rebuilt and we've moved into a big, beautiful office, that there's a whole lot of pink, and I have a beautiful team of eight people.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: It it feels really warm in my heart to be able to look back and think, wow, yes, you can get through anything.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is more than just a setback.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: That is, as far as setbacks go, I think most people think of things much smaller in scale than that.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: But for you, you had just opened your own golfer.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So Renee Romanos Legal, was that 2022 when you opened it?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then do you say it was the following year or the same year.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Same year.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Everything comes in threes.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we moved into the dream home.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I started the business, and then the big, beautiful dream home burnt down.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: We were underinsured by, oh God, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But through that adversity was a whole lot of resilience.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's look, I have to imagine, and this is kind of the way you present yourself online and you know, through your own services as well, that though that kind of experience that you've had personally is something you carry with you into your professional life as well, to really understand people in that situation, the kind of underdog situation, bouncing back from severe setbacks.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Again, setback is not the it doesn't capture the immensity of it, but I I feel that authenticity authenticity does come through in your service.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and do you think is that important in law to kind of bring your personal experience out a professional way, but to think about other people as I guess humans?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think through my own experiences, I discovered how quickly you need people in your corner.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And often people come to lawyers because they need someone in their corner.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: They need someone to hold their hand in that moment, whether it's a beautiful moment such as buying a home, or whether it's not such a beautiful moment, such as losing your home.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And no matter what the circumstances are, people come to voyeurs because, yes, they need expert legal advice, but they need someone who can demonstrate that compassion, the authenticity, the empathy, and the connection because law is so much more about the law, but it's also that human connection and being able to empathize with someone at a different level.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And absolutely, my experiences have allowed me to sit with my clients in moments where they've gone through something extraordinary and be able to hold their hand in a very different manner if I had not gone through what I had gone through.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I see it, people often think about law as just knowing the legislation and knowing what the rule book says.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that's all very important.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that authenticity goes so much further.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I agree.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's well said.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think as well, it does lean in very much to Rene Romanus legal.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is part of, I guess, your tagline, I guess you could say, about doing more differently.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think you are demonstrating that by example.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you the athletes are there, people are taking notice.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I do want to, I guess, maybe even talk a bit more about that.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you've started your own law firm with a goal to do law a bit differently.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in your mind, what do you think that means when you're just starting out?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's changed now, but in the beginning, what what kind of aspirations did you have to approach law?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Bring your own sparkle to every single day.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Paint that law firm with as much pink as possibly human possible and create a space where clients feel valued, heard, and respected.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really important when people come into my space or into my office, that they come in and they feel warm, they feel supported, they feel like they're heard.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And often when people come into our space, the first thing they do is they go, Oh, I can breathe.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I feel really relaxed in this space.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's because I spent a lot of money on furniture to make sure it was really, really comfortable.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: But often it's it's the aura and it's the space, and it's allowing people to know that this is your safe space.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I designed my practice was very much in allowing people to feel that.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this might be the ethnic side of me coming out, but we have a kitchen in the middle of our office.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: We have a dining table in the middle of the space.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And my goodness, there is so much food on that dining table.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Most of our staff meetings are on the table and there's always food.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Often, if we have clients that come in after hour in school that bring their children to the office, they know that this is a space for them.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you open my free jaw pantry, it is always full.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: It is like the woolings in there, it's great.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just about setting a different sparkle on a space that otherwise would traditionally be really great.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, to paraphrase you, one thing I've I've loved that you've said before is that often your nine to five, or not nine to five, that's being optimistic.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, your daily um routine would involve entering a room full of suits wearing pink, which I think says so much of not your approach.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I also, not from a client side, uh, but from the people on the other side, the other party.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you does the way you present yourself and you approach the law, do you have you ever had any challenges with that?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Have people felt, I guess, a little put off by it?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something you've had to deal with?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just say there's plenty of them for surprises.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Come and underestimate me.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of fun.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, that's that's a very interesting point as well.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask you specifically about.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think you you have proven your worth.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, very much like across the board.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is a bit of a daunting cast for some people getting into this industry about this concept of earning your credibility, especially as a young lawyer.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have, I guess, any advice or how did you go about it, do you think, to kind of get to the position you're in and get people to really take notice of what you're doing?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: The one I say is back yourself before you're ready and be unapologetically you in that moment.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Stop trying to come into this space and be someone else, or put on the black suit because that's what you were told the lawyer should do.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: But come into the space and be unapologetically yourself.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if yourself is wearing purple, then you freaking wear purple.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: You wear purple.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And in circumstances where you want to put on the black suit and you want to be a traditional lawyer, that's fine too.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: But be yourself.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Let that be the person behind the suit as well.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because fake does not sell.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: And when someone is putting on this facade, clients can see that, they can feel that, they can resonate with that, and so can practitioners on the other side as well.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think when you are yourself and you are delivering a service that is human, authentic, compassionate, caring, we are expert lawyers too.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: But we're all the first beautiful things first.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: That will get so much further than putting on a big fake facade of I'm a big serious lawyer.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Look at me, I you don't find no divorce.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you cut some of that out and you just be unapologetically you and let that person shine, that will always deliver much greater results.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Very well said.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I wonder, is that also that thinking kind of what led you to do something else you're quite well known for online, which is just explaining law in plain English, breaking down things so everyone like myself can understand.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is that did you have an idea when you started doing that?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Started creating this breakdown of these short clips of FIFA to understand.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have any aim?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: I thought to myself, the law should be accessible.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: It should be something that you could easily understand.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I started doing social media about four years ago, way before any other solicitors jumped on social media and professionals.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: There was a lot of cringe at that time.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I started speaking about complex legal concepts in a reel and explaining how someone losing capacity cannot write a power of attorney.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: However, you if you wrote an enduring power of attorney when you were well, then if there was ever a circumstance when you weren't well, that you've already had this thing in place that was protecting you.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember I used to get play-doh from my kids' playroom and talk a lot about off-the-plant contracts and play with Play-Doh and they get my kids building blocks and talk about the concepts in a contract by way of using just things that I found in my kids' playroom.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's sort of where it all started from.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: And over the years, it's definitely created a reputation and people can resonate with it because they'll watch me talking about something, usually with Play Doh or Barbie or a toy.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: And most of the time they're probably thinking, why is this boy upplaying Play-Doh?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: That if it stops the scroll, then that's great.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: If they learn something even better.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the message I often hear back from people is, I didn't know that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Or I was about to sign the contract and I had you in my head.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, that's great, it's working.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for me, there's a lot of joy in showing up online, being yourself, putting some sparkle on it, making it fun.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the other day I was in my office eating some tiny teddies, and I thought to myself, these would be really good to talk about foundly law, financial separations.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I entered the pack about and I started playing with them.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I was like, oh, this is a good idea.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And sparkle, you know, a really cool idea about how you can talk about the four-step test.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: The tiny teddies.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I yeah, I had a lot of fun over the years in doing that.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's absolutely grown my practice unintentionally, which has been really um a real blessing.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that tiny teddy example, no to outsiders, that may sound silly, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a bit like of a reduction of how serious law can be.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, you're speaking to people who don't have a lot of knowledge about the war.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And how are you going to speak about it, right?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And making it a bit more approachable, I think, is very much to that point of increasing access to justice.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we get that kind of legal acumen to even have a common starting point when you walk into a a law firm, right?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I really like what you're doing there.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've also said that a lot more people are jumping on social media now as well.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot more uh lawyers are seeing their value, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: I I often see other lawyers doing fun things on socials, and I think, yes, you go, girl, you do that, that's great.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it gives me a lot of joy to see that it's it's a completely different market now.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: But my message to anyone starting a legal practice now is get on social media because where are your potential clients looking for you?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: They're actually going on to TikTok and typing, how do I get a divorce?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know we live in a world where people go to TikTok, but that is where we're at.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm surprised to hear that the younger generation are going to Chat GPT and they're saying, find me the best property lawyer in my area.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And they're waiting for AI to deliver them a result.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the only way to show up on AI is to have really good algorithms and results on search engines and be the person delivering that free advice so that you can show up in those PAP bots.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: It in a way, it's almost a shifting of what uh like a lawyer used to be years and years ago when there was someone in the community, so a public figure that people knew and respected.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they these days, how do you know someone?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, it's on TikTok.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's through AI.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be online.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just a reality of the world, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people want to see people.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's all good and great to say brain guru lawyers.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: But people want to see the person.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: They want to see the face, they want to know the name behind the business.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that personal connection is the thing that people are seeking more so now than ever.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's all good and great for a law firm to say you've got 75 years of experience.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's lovely.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: But who's the human that's going to be holding my hands through this process?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that authenticity is where people can show up online and be themselves and be human and talk about families and children and the complexities of trying to get my kids' lunches in their school bags and get those same school bags into my car and get them to school on time, and then get myself to the office on time.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: So many humans can relate with that.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many of us are doing that.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no need to pretend that we've got it all put together.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let's be real.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: We don't.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're juggling.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's juggling.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Every working parent is doing a lot to keep it together.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the moment that people start to show up online and put a bit of humor on that, they can resonate with other people so much more easier because they've shown them that I'm human to.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Cut the fake, and we can get so much further.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I actually there's something else you brought up there that I think is important not to discount, but you don't shy away from speaking about, you know, your family values, making it well known that, you know, this there's more than just the law side of you.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: You have a family, you care very much about them, and you are judging those responsibilities.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's something we've discussed on the podcast before, actually, that being a young mother and moving it to war for a long time has been thought of incompatible.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's worth kind of sharing the story of showing hey, of course it's possible.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Anything's possible.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, failure isn't an auction.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: You you have a family.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You have a job.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about whether that's going to stop you doing it.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just go out and do it.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I I really love that you kind of broadcast that message.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: The way I see it is you can do anything.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You can achieve everything and anything.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And gone are the days where the woman has to cook, clean, pick up the kids, take them to soccer, go to work, come back.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: We can't be everything.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: We absolutely can't.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so many w women are still trying to be everything.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And something I taught myself was it's okay to let go of certain things.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: There are certain things I let go of really proudly.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I see it, if I if I give an example of what that might look like, I don't do school pickup.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: I might do it once a week, potentially, but generally speaking, I don't do school hiccup.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's better for me to be working till five than to do school hiccup.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because for me to leave the office at 2.30 doesn't necessarily work when I'm trying to run a business.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I've accepted that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've delegated, I've made arrangements.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: My kids are safe.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're happy.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: They're loved.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: They don't need me sitting with them at 2.30, 3 o'clock, 3.30.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: They will sing at 5.30 when I get home, maybe 6.30.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: That it's it's okay not to do those things.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: And like other things that I wouldn't do is Monday to Friday, you won't see me in the kitchen.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: No chance.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: The only kitchen you'll see me in is one in my office.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that's if I'm making a copy.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or asking someone to make me one.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: That it's okay not to be doing everything and finding ways to make life fit for you because life is so busy.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if a woman is trying to cook, clean, handle the children, boss the husband around and telling where to go and what to do, it's too much.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what I've learned is let go, delegate some of the tasks and be okay with it.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're not going to be done perfectly, and that's okay too.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: But you have to let go of some things so other areas can thrive.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a large part of where you've got yourself to today is by building the people you want in your firm as well, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: You have a fantastic team.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen you talk about them before.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're included on social media and they seem, yeah, they seem like a rock for you as well.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: That you've you've collected the right people.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: How did you go about doing that when you first started?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a believer that the universe is big, beautiful, and wonderful and that white people will find you.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: I truly believe that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: And every single person in my practice is not someone that sent me a resume and said, Hi, can you hire me?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: They are not.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're all people that sort of fell into the firm in mysterious ways.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: If I talk about my wonderful paralegal who's been with me for three years, I was doing a will for her nonna.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting in her nonna's living room, and she was saying to me, My granddaughter, she's the best lawyer.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Oh, where does she work?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Who is she?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Oh, she just got into law school.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Oh, yeah, she's a lawyer, is she?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make her a lawyer?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Oh, here's my business card.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: You give this to your big, beautiful, amazing granddaughter, and you tell her to call me.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: And she has.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And Helena's been with me for three years.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: She's been promoted several times.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: She's now um running my conveyancing practice.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And she will be an amazing lawyer in a year or two, I hope.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's it's been so lovely being able to mold her into a very little version of me.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: She sounds like me sometimes.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's been really lovely having the opportunity to bring people into a practice and allow them to sparkle in their own way.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also quite lucky if I if I think about some of the people in my practice.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I have um a solicitor who works with me who has 20 plus years of experience.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: So she's seen the roads more than I have anyway.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we, funny enough, used to be in a similar co-working space where she was working in one office and I had moved another office down the hall.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remember her telling me about the politics and the long hours and the all the fun standard things you see in big practice.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember saying to her one day, come and work for me and we'll create a role that works for you.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, What does that mean?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, what do you want?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, I just want to work two days a week.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, done.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I don't know what that looks like, but let's just make it happen.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, I've always just been really open and accepting to letting things fall into place and that everything has its purpose.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, some purposes are short term, some purposes are long term, and just being really open to allowing the space to be a space where people can come in and figure their best versions of themselves.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a great method to have, I think.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's probably showing through a bit in how the community has reacted to your firm.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as I mentioned in introduction, it's four years Roddick now.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Local business award, you're you've won your category.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, obviously, the people I've noticed in your immediate community, is that something I guess have you tried to do that, or is that just in the way you've conducted your business that it's just been helping all of the local communities around you?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I love conveyancing.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a really beautiful area of the law because you're helping people with the biggest transactions.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: And there are so many misconceptions about conveyancing.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we were really blessed to win the outstanding conveyancing services award four years running.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I've always said I'd set out to do was to be the best in the space.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to be the best in the space.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be known as the one that does the most due diligence, um, you know, the one that really holds hands with clients, the ones that just get them from A to B in the most seamless of ways.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And throughout that journey, I slowly discovered that the education in conveyancing is pretty cruel.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I realized I kept training my staff on the same things.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And anyone that came to own business in conveyancing, I taught them.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I created Conveyancing Mastery, which is an education platform for property lawyers, conveyancers, support staff for conveyancing in New South Wales.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just the how do we do it, it's how to spot the red flags, how to see a lemon before the lemon appears, how to explain the really complex special condition to my client.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do when things go wrong?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because university is great, it teaches you the law, but the practical is a thing we learn in practice.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And often on someone's file is usually when the learning happens.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when I created conveyancing mastery, I wanted it to be a space where people can learn, feel excited, understand the ifs, the whys, the buts.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And most importantly, is when things go wrong, what do I do?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had a lot of joy in creating conveyancing mastery, and it's um it's now available online and it's at an it's at a cost that I think is really reasonable for a resource that can save so much time, effort, money, and create contingencies in law firms.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like your risk management tool for conveyancing.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I had so much fun in putting it together and showing up with color and sparkles and yes, there's confetti and allowing it to be the only conveyancing education on the market created in 2026 for 2026.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: The problems we see today are not problems at University debris.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Taught.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I feel like right now, more than ever, we're in a really difficult, complex time.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're dealing with things that we've never dealt with before.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: All of a sudden, I'm the investigator for empty money laundering.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, when did I just want to help the guy buy the house?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I have to check his bank records?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to know what he does in his spare time.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's too much for me.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, the things that are on Alps Light are so much heavier than they were before.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're dealing with a time of cybercrime.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And if firms have not dealt with that yet, it is an eye-opener.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: The internet is unsafe.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: You have no idea how safe technology is until you're in a circumstance where there could be a little spy watching you or your client and can very easily hijack emails.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And often Peca release articles about property scams.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: They are everywhere.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Or cyber scammers hijacking emails and then telling clients to transfer money to other accounts.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so important to continue that human touch with clients so that they know you must call me to verify before you transfer a dollar.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's so important because so often people lose that human touch and people are used to just conversing with their boy over own email rather than the phone call.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's whilst the society is changing, whilst our whilst what we're dealing with is heavier, it's so important for firms to go back to the basics, go back to the checklist, go back to the resources, remind clients to call and do everything we can to protect ourselves.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: And a whole lot of convincing mastery was how do we minimize risk?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: So for anyone who wants to minimize risk, check out convincing mastery.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, that's a great way to give back to our community, not just your immediate community, but your colleagues, the, you know, the groups that you're a part of as well.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: You are all supporting each other in that way.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm guessing I'm interested to get your perspective.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: For people that are coming out of law school who are learning to become a lawyer, how much of their education do you think is actually preparing them for the realities of the role this day?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Not enough.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not enough.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: There was an influencer online recently who was a new lawyer graduate, and it was all over the media.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: She was ranting on TikTok about the fact that there are deadlines.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And she has to build her time in six-minute intervals.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she lost her job because she was whinging about work online.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought to myself, surely law school taught you this deadlines and billing your time.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Surely that was in the book somewhere when you were studying, that that was part of the role.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's pretty scary to think that our younger generation coming through are underprepared.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't realize what they might be walking into.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: And a recommendation to anyone studying law is get into a law firm early.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Work in a firm early.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you can't get a role as a paralegal, as a secretary, as an assistant, go and sweep the floor, pick up coffee.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do anything.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Go in there and learn.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Find a way to get your foot into a door and do it so that you can get as much experience as possible before you waste five and a half years studying and then another year in college of law.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's a lot of time to study to end up with this certificate to be a lawyer, to make sure that that's what you really want.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because legal work is hard work.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: We it's the way I see it is that we're naturally helping people with their biggest moments.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's no small feat.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes people think it's ticking locks or it's checking the law and writing something.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be that potentially, but most of the time it's not.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And for any young person studying, my strong recommendation is walk into a firm and ask for experience.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: And when I was studying, I remember I worked one or two days a week at a local firm.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure all I did was get coffee for the boss.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I learned a thing or two.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think it's so important to get as much experience as you can early.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: I also like to think that you having, you know, three coffees before midday helps you impart a lot of experience to your uh colleagues as well in that scenario.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Coffee is everything.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit bad on the calories, but it's a biggie.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's not too bad.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not too bad.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you having it with milk?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, never mind.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: But um I guess we're nearly out of time, Renee, uh, which is a a shame.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we're reaching something that I did want to ask you from the beginning, which is if you had any kind of unfiltered advice you could give to a young lawyer or anyone uh of our audience looking to study law, looking to be adjacent to law in any kind, what is something you would would have loved to know when you started or would like to tell them?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Be unapologetically yourself.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Don't go into a space trying to mask being someone else.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Being yourself.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Figure out who you want to show up as in that role and be her.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because that will always get you so much further than putting on a mask or putting on a fake facade.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well said, well said.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's worked out tremendously for you, Renee.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think anyone who wants to find out more about you or see yourself in action, do you have platforms that you are best contacted on?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Please follow me on Renee Romanos Legal on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and TikTok, as well as Conveyan Mastery.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Conveyancing Mastery is the practical network there to help you with conveyancing.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And part two is social media for law, how to show up authentically in your practice.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: I strongly recommend you jump online, get in touch, because I can't wait to meet you.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Renee.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, you can find Unbuilder and Unfiltered on all major streaming platforms and on unbuildandunfiltered.com.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh been an absolute pleasure, Renee.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you've enjoyed this time and I would love to speak to you again in the future.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: See where you are in the next three years.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's, I mean, how many local business awards can you win?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do they do they have a cap?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I hope not.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm having a lot of fun every year getting on stage and boarding my little trophies.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I I look forward to seeing what you achieve in the future.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and I'm honored to be on the show.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.