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Deep Sea Mining in U.S. Waters: A New Era of Ocean Extraction · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:02
  A couple of weeks ago, as a way in
• 1:00:03
  Jamaica, I get news that
• 1:00:04
  Donald Trump has signed an
• 1:00:05
  executive order to allow the US to deep
• 1:00:08
  sea mine, not only in
• 1:00:09
  the US exclusive economics
• 1:00:10
  zone, but also in the high seas, which
• 1:00:14
  goes against the UN law of the sea.
• 1:00:16
  I'm close.
• 1:00:17
  And so where do we go from here?
• 1:00:18
  I was like, where do I do when I need
• 1:00:21
  information on deep sea mining?
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  I get an email right away from a good
• 1:00:25
  friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Thaler.
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  He says, "Hey, Andrew, do you want to
• 1:00:29
  talk about this
• 1:00:29
  executive order about deep sea
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  mining in the US?"
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  I'm like, absolutely I do.
• 1:00:59
  Hey everybody, welcome back to another
• 1:01:00
  exciting episode of the How
• 1:01:02
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:01:03
  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
• 1:01:04
  This is the podcast where you find out
• 1:01:05
  what's happening with the
• 1:01:06
  ocean, how you can speak
• 1:01:07
  up for the ocean and what you can do to
• 1:01:08
  live for a better ocean by taking action.
• 1:01:11
  And action is what you might need to do
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  today because we are
• 1:01:14
  going to be talking about the
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  executive order that was signed by Donald
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  Trump a couple of weeks ago that looks at
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  deep sea mining in US waters as well as
• 1:01:21
  the high seas, which is
• 1:01:22
  kind of interesting because
• 1:01:23
  the US has not ratified the
• 1:01:25
  UN law of the sea on close.
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  And so why are they
• 1:01:29
  considering going into the high seas?
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  There's a lot of repercussions that can
• 1:01:33
  come from that that can
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  not only be repercussions
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  for the US, but also for other countries
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  and just in general, the ocean and
• 1:01:39
  listening to UN policies.
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  But also deep sea mining
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  is a threat to the ocean.
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  And we just don't know how much of a
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  threat it is because there
• 1:01:47
  hasn't been a huge amount of
• 1:01:50
  understanding of deep sea processes as
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  well as what would happen
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  to those deep sea processes
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  should we start to
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  fiddle around in the deep sea.
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  But it's okay because Dr. Andrew Thaler
• 1:02:00
  is here today to talk about
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  what this new executive order
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  means. How is it going to play a role in
• 1:02:06
  the future? Do we need to
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  be worried about something?
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  Is the US able to start production and
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  how long it'll take? And
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  is this going to happen just
• 1:02:13
  during this administration or is it going
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  to happen over a
• 1:02:16
  number of administrations?
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  We're going to talk about that today. So
• 1:02:19
  here's the interview with
• 1:02:20
  Dr. Andrew Taylor talking
• 1:02:21
  about the executive order for the US deep
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  sea mine in the US as
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  well as in the high seas.
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  Enjoy the interview and I will talk to
• 1:02:27
  you after. Hey, Andrew,
• 1:02:29
  welcome back on this wonderful
• 1:02:31
  episode of the how to protect the ocean
• 1:02:32
  podcast. Are you ready to
• 1:02:33
  talk about the Americans deep
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  sea mining? Is it going to happen or is
• 1:02:37
  it not going to happen?
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  We're going to talk about it.
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  Are you ready? Absolutely. I am.
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  Wonderful. This is going to
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  be a lot of fun. You know,
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  obviously people know I've talked about
• 1:02:45
  on the podcast before
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  that, you know, the US, the US
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  administration, Donald Trump has sent an
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  executive order to explore deep sea
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  mining within the US as
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  well as outside of the US, which is
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  against UNCLOS, right? The UN Convention
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  of the Law of the Sea.
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  I think it's, I never able to remember
• 1:03:04
  that that acronym. UNCLOS it
• 1:03:06
  is. We can just call it the
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  Law of the Sea. Yeah, there you go. Law
• 1:03:08
  of the Sea. So it's a lot of
• 1:03:10
  interesting things. We know
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  Donald Trump doesn't like to play by the
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  rules. He's not playing by
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  the rules. So you are the one
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  of the experts, foremost experts on deep
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  sea mining. You've come
• 1:03:21
  on the podcast a number of
• 1:03:23
  times to talk about deep sea mining. So
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  I'm very happy that you hit me up
• 1:03:27
  yesterday and was like,
• 1:03:27
  hey, you want to talk about deep sea by
• 1:03:29
  the US? I'm like, absolutely
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  I do. We did it the next day
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  and I'm happy we're doing it today. So
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  let's just talk about
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  it. You know, first, first,
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  but actually before we talk about it,
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  Andrew, why don't you just remind people
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  who you are and what
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  you do? All right. Well, hello, everyone.
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  I am a Dr. Andrew Thaler.
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  I am a deep sea ecologist,
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  a conservation technologist and an ocean
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  educator. And I run a small environmental
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  consulting firm that focuses on high seas
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  policy, technology and education.
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  And we're going to talk about everything
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  that you are, that you
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  run in your company, because
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  DC Mining, like this is, this is
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  interesting. We've talked about it
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  before. We talked about every,
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  you know, I think it's every six months,
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  the everybody gets together
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  in Kingston, Jamaica, and we
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  taught, they talk about DC Mining.
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  Usually we have you on to kind of debrief
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  and figure out what went
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  on and where we're at. Seems like a lot
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  of changes were happening. The last out
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  of the last meeting,
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  the mining company, a Canadian company
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  basically said, hey, you
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  know, we're done with all these
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  regulations that are happening at the
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  ISA, the International Sea Bed
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  Association. We are done.
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  We are going to go to the US. We're going
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  to propose the US to do deep sea mining.
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  You know, seemed like we didn't really, I
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  don't know if we actually
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  heard from the US to say,
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  yes, we're going to, but they seem to be
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  happy about it. But then
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  you put out an article talking
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  about, you know, is it really feasible?
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  So let's start there was
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  originally, was it actually
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  feasible for this to happen? All right.
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  So before we can get into
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  that, we got to talk about what
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  did happen? Yes, please do. So there's
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  two things happening kind of
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  simultaneously. There's the Metals
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  Company, which is the Canadian Deep Sea
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  Mining Company. They
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  have announced that they are
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  frustrated with the ISA process. They do
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  not believe that the ISA
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  is acting in good faith and
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  acting as a good regulator of the
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  industry. They think it is being
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  stonewalled by stakeholders who
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  are opposed to deep sea mining and that
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  the regulations are never
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  going to come. And so they
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  have said they're going to go it alone.
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  They're going to go to the
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  United States. They're going to
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  apply for a mining permit under NOAA,
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  which NOAA has purview through the deep
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  sea bed hard minerals
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  act over mineral resources in the high
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  seas purview, not necessarily authority,
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  the deep sea bed hard
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  minerals act was passed before on class
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  was ratified. And it was
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  designed to be phased out
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  if and when on class was ratified. So
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  there's questions about whether or not
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  the deep sea bed hard
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  minerals act is really applicable. The US
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  currently says it is the current
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  President of the United States has
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  issued an executive order saying no one
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  has this authority. Legal scholars say
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  wait a minute, probably not.
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  The mining company wants to go the Metals
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  Company wants to go gung ho and get to
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  mining because they
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  are a private company.
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  They have limited financial resources.
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  You know, they're not China.
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  They're not Russia. They're not
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  France. They don't have basically
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  unlimited resources to commit to this
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  industry. They have a burn rate.
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  Unfortunately for them, the health of the
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  ocean is not beholden to the
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  burn rate of private companies,
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  but they are attempting to begin mining
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  in the high seas through the United
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  States. And they are
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  applying weirdly enough
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  for the area that was permitted to them
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  through Nauru. So there's a lot of
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  questions now about what
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  does that mean for their
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  international relationships? What does
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  that mean for the partnerships they've
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  built through the ISA? If they mine
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  through the US in
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  defiance of ISA regulations,
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  how do they then get the permits to mine
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  in the areas that were
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  supposed to be reserved for Nauru?
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  Where do they land their metals? They
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  have to land them in the US, both through
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  the deep sea bed hard
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  minerals act and because of
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  the Jones Act, they have to bring those
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  minerals back to the US. The US doesn't
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  have processing capacity for those
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  minerals right now. So are we just
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  stockpiling them? And who's paying for
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  that stockpile?
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  Spoilers, I am. The US taxpayer.
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  Yeah, if they are landed. And so it's
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  really throwing things into a lot of
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  chaos because this is
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  completely unknown territory.
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  The US has followed the law of the sea as
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  customary law since UNCLOS was ratified.
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  The US signed UNCLOS. They did not ratify
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  it, but they signed it.
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  And they signed it after negotiating
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  specifically for carve outs within the
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  creation of the ISA. So, you know, we
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  have we exist right now under an
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  administration that is
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  very gung ho and very anti UN.
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  Deep sea mining is a much longer play
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  than the lifespan of a single
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  presidential administration, especially a
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  lame duck president who
• 1:08:00
  doesn't get another term.
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  So, you know, whether or not they
• 1:08:04
  convince Trump to allow them to mine,
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  there may be new questions raised when
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  the next president who almost certainly
• 1:08:10
  will be elected based on opposition to
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  Trump Trump policies, I think is going to
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  be it's very hard to see a different kind
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  of future where you have
• 1:08:18
  another Trumpian president.
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  So there will be I mean, the US president
• 1:08:22
  flip flops. That's generally how we go
• 1:08:23
  with elections. Yeah.
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  So, you know, they how that is going to
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  rack up against the next presidential
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  administration or the next Congress
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  because Congress generally flip flops in
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  the second term of a presidency to.
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  And so it's really it's a strange moment
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  for international policy. All the
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  international partners are furious
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  because they have been working on getting
• 1:08:46
  these mining regulations done for years.
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  And it is a difficult
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  negotiation. It is a process.
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  I think the argument that it's being
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  stonewalled does not hold very much
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  water. Right. You know, this is a long
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  process. This is a big international
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  negotiation. Uncloshed
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  itself took 30 years to negotiate.
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  And we're only on, you know, we've only
• 1:09:07
  really been negotiating the mining code
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  seriously for the last 10 years. And
• 1:09:12
  technology has only been online even to
• 1:09:14
  reasonably get us close to mining within
• 1:09:16
  the last two. So I think it's a bit
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  farcical to say that
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  it's being stonewalled.
• 1:09:20
  Well, do you think it's just more they're
• 1:09:22
  using as an excuse because they know that
• 1:09:24
  the president will be will be on board
• 1:09:27
  for this type of work? You know, they're
• 1:09:29
  just using as an excuse.
• 1:09:31
  That's an assumption, but it's a Canadian
• 1:09:33
  company. It's a multinational company.
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  They've got employees in London. They've
• 1:09:38
  got employees in Canada. They've got
• 1:09:39
  employees in Australia. They don't have
• 1:09:41
  that many employees in the US.
• 1:09:42
  And, you know, there's a cynical
• 1:09:46
  interpretation that they're like, oh,
• 1:09:47
  yeah, Trump's in power. We should go for
• 1:09:49
  it. But I think the more reasonable
• 1:09:50
  interpretation is they're running out of
• 1:09:52
  money and they need to get they need to
• 1:09:54
  get to profitability quick or they're
• 1:09:56
  never going to be able to continue.
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  And they're just probably playing the
• 1:10:01
  cards. They've been dealt the best they
• 1:10:04
  can. And it just so happens to be up,
• 1:10:06
  upending, you know, a multilateral regime
• 1:10:09
  at the moment. Right.
• 1:10:10
  But I think, you know, I think the
• 1:10:12
  reality of the situation is they're just
• 1:10:13
  they're running out of money. Private
• 1:10:15
  company. They got it. They got to get to
• 1:10:17
  profitability. Yeah. On that token, a
• 1:10:21
  second company has entered the fray. And
• 1:10:24
  this is impossible metals. And you've
• 1:10:27
  talked to Oliver Gonserka
• 1:10:29
  from impossible metals before.
• 1:10:31
  Yes. Over. Yeah. Over LinkedIn. Yeah.
• 1:10:33
  Yeah. And he you know, they have a much
• 1:10:35
  more cautious approach and they have a
• 1:10:40
  different set of mining technologies. And
• 1:10:42
  on the same token, they have applied for
• 1:10:45
  a permit to do pilot studies within the
• 1:10:49
  US easy off the coast of American Samoa.
• 1:10:53
  And, you know, whatever you want to think
• 1:10:57
  about the validity of deep sea mining on
• 1:10:59
  its own, that is at least a legally
• 1:11:03
  defensible position. The US does have
• 1:11:06
  authority to issue permits in its own
• 1:11:07
  exclusive economic zone. Right.
• 1:11:11
  Companies have a right to apply for those
• 1:11:13
  permits. They applied last year under the
• 1:11:15
  last administration and were rejected. So
• 1:11:17
  this is a fresh application.
• 1:11:19
  They're also they're not at nearly as
• 1:11:21
  close to commercialization, I think, as
• 1:11:23
  the metals company is. And so they're in
• 1:11:26
  the process of doing their environmental
• 1:11:27
  impact assessments of doing their pilot
• 1:11:29
  studies of seeing how commercialization
• 1:11:33
  might move forward
• 1:11:34
  using their technology.
• 1:11:36
  So we've got kind of deep sea mining
• 1:11:38
  coming on two fronts in the US right now.
• 1:11:41
  We've got the national regime, which has
• 1:11:43
  a much more stable legal framework to
• 1:11:46
  rely on. And then we've got the
• 1:11:48
  international regime, which is just
• 1:11:49
  throwing everything into complete chaos.
• 1:11:51
  And on top of all that, because there's
• 1:11:53
  always an end on top of all that.
• 1:11:55
  No, I has lost 28% of its workforce.
• 1:11:58
  Department of the Interior, Boa has lost.
• 1:12:00
  I don't have the numbers on it, but a
• 1:12:02
  significant percentage of its workforce.
• 1:12:05
  The people who would be reviewing and
• 1:12:07
  revising these permits to as far as I am
• 1:12:10
  currently aware have all been retired or
• 1:12:14
  forcibly retired basically.
• 1:12:16
  Well, they took the ones I know I know I
• 1:12:18
  took the Vera that the voluntary
• 1:12:20
  retirement program, the buyout. So it's
• 1:12:23
  not forcibly forcible. Like it's not one
• 1:12:26
  of these cases that's being tied up in
• 1:12:27
  legal struggles because it was legal
• 1:12:29
  firing, but they were close to retiring.
• 1:12:32
  They decided I'm going to I'm going to
• 1:12:33
  retire, which kind of helps the younger
• 1:12:35
  generation that's coming into right or
• 1:12:37
  were eligible for retirement and didn't
• 1:12:39
  want to deal with it. There are people,
• 1:12:40
  you know, if you've put in your time, you
• 1:12:42
  may not be close to 65.
• 1:12:43
  But if you put in your time, you're
• 1:12:45
  eligible to take their time and buyout
• 1:12:46
  and you can go do something else. But you
• 1:12:50
  know, the executive order calls for an
• 1:12:52
  expediting of the permitting process, but
• 1:12:54
  they don't have the personnel to do that.
• 1:12:56
  So it's going to be from a logistics
• 1:12:58
  standpoint. It's going to be a very
• 1:12:59
  interesting few months
• 1:13:00
  watching how any of this plays out.
• 1:13:03
  But is the idea of taking away the people
• 1:13:06
  to review because there's a review
• 1:13:08
  process for every permit is the idea to
• 1:13:10
  take away that review and just to rubber
• 1:13:12
  stamp anybody who
• 1:13:13
  wants to put a proposal in.
• 1:13:15
  You know, if I do mining companies and if
• 1:13:18
  I were Noah and if I were any reasonable
• 1:13:20
  person, I absolutely would not want that
• 1:13:22
  to be the case because right.
• 1:13:24
  Like I said, this is a long process if if
• 1:13:27
  they get their first permit to do their
• 1:13:29
  experimental test mining for impossible
• 1:13:31
  or if they get their first permits to do
• 1:13:33
  commercialization for the metals company.
• 1:13:36
  And there are questions about that
• 1:13:38
  permit. They're going to be vulnerable to
• 1:13:40
  lawsuits for the next 10 years. They'll
• 1:13:43
  get bled out long before they get a
• 1:13:45
  chance to reach profitability.
• 1:13:46
  So, you know, if I were one of these
• 1:13:47
  companies, I absolutely would not want a
• 1:13:49
  rubber stamped permit expedited is one
• 1:13:51
  thing rubber stamped is perhaps true, not
• 1:13:54
  what anyone wants to see because that
• 1:13:56
  makes everyone vulnerable.
• 1:13:57
  And of course, they overturned the
• 1:14:00
  Chevron doctrine, which means that NGOs
• 1:14:03
  can just constantly sue for regulations.
• 1:14:06
  They don't agree with because now we
• 1:14:08
  don't have this doctrine within the US
• 1:14:10
  that defaults regulatory
• 1:14:12
  judgments to the regulator.
• 1:14:14
  Right. Gotcha. Okay. So it's what I'm
• 1:14:18
  going to say is that everything in the US
• 1:14:20
  is chaos right now and you know, take
• 1:14:24
  everything I say with a grain of salt
• 1:14:25
  because it is very hard to predict what
• 1:14:27
  the next six months or two years or four
• 1:14:29
  years or even the next week
• 1:14:30
  at some time or the next week.
• 1:14:32
  What's gonna happen? I don't know what
• 1:14:33
  it's gonna look like when
• 1:14:34
  it's time for happy hour tonight.
• 1:14:36
  Yeah, it's true. Well, it's like it was a
• 1:14:39
  surprise, right? I were you surprised
• 1:14:41
  when this all came out, you know, the
• 1:14:44
  metals company making this announcement,
• 1:14:46
  but also that was like maybe less than a
• 1:14:49
  month before the executive order came out
• 1:14:52
  and and it didn't seem to be and I and it
• 1:14:55
  didn't seem to be at the forefront of a
• 1:14:58
  lot of a lot of talk on social media.
• 1:15:01
  Definitely not mainstream media because
• 1:15:02
  there's more going on than this, but it
• 1:15:05
  never really there's a bit of like the
• 1:15:08
  announcement cause a little bit of buzz.
• 1:15:09
  But before that, it never really was
• 1:15:11
  talked about as much as like this is
• 1:15:14
  coming down the pipe.
• 1:15:15
  Like we're expecting this to come down.
• 1:15:17
  Was you were you surprised by the
• 1:15:18
  executive order? So we had heard rumors
• 1:15:19
  about the executive order for about two
• 1:15:22
  months leading up to
• 1:15:23
  one actually came out.
• 1:15:24
  And it was one of those things where like
• 1:15:26
  every two or three days I'd be getting a
• 1:15:28
  text message from one of my colleagues
• 1:15:29
  being like, I heard it's coming out
• 1:15:31
  today. It's gonna come out tonight. It's
• 1:15:32
  gonna come out tonight.
• 1:15:33
  You know, by the time it actually came
• 1:15:35
  out, I was so inert to hearing this.
• 1:15:38
  Yeah, I was skeptical that we'd ever see
• 1:15:40
  it. Gotcha. But we had heard rumblings of
• 1:15:42
  the EO would come out. The thing that
• 1:15:45
  really surprised people, I think was the
• 1:15:48
  metals company saying they were going for
• 1:15:50
  mining in the high seas.
• 1:15:51
  I was expecting an EO that was going to
• 1:15:54
  focus on building refining capacity,
• 1:15:57
  which the administration has been talking
• 1:15:59
  about for critical minerals and
• 1:16:01
  developing resources within the US easy.
• 1:16:05
  I was not expecting them to go straight
• 1:16:08
  up to the line of challenging the
• 1:16:09
  international seabed authority because
• 1:16:11
  this is a multinational industry. And,
• 1:16:14
  you know, the US is the only major
• 1:16:16
  economy that hasn't ratified the law of
• 1:16:17
  the sea blowing up the law of the sea for
• 1:16:20
  one small, relatively small company in
• 1:16:23
  the grand scheme of things seems like a
• 1:16:26
  terrible development
• 1:16:27
  for the entire industry.
• 1:16:28
  Is it legal? Like, can they are they
• 1:16:32
  allowed to actually go into the high seas
• 1:16:35
  and do deep sea mining? They haven't
• 1:16:37
  ratified on close or law of the sea. So
• 1:16:41
  how are they allowed to go in? Or is it
• 1:16:44
  just more of who's going to stop them?
• 1:16:45
  So I think there's a fundamental
• 1:16:49
  misunderstanding about how the UN
• 1:16:52
  functions as an authority, because the UN
• 1:16:55
  itself is not like an authority. It's not
• 1:16:58
  a police. There's no enforcement or
• 1:16:59
  anything. It is a collective of nations
• 1:17:02
  that agree to different treaties, to
• 1:17:08
  different agreements.
• 1:17:09
  And it's functionally I don't know if you
• 1:17:14
  were ever in like an outdoor education
• 1:17:15
  program in college or if you've ever been
• 1:17:18
  involved in some of these fun little like
• 1:17:21
  communal living group experiments that
• 1:17:24
  do. Okay, so the UN is an anarchic
• 1:17:28
  organization in the
• 1:17:29
  political definition of anarchy.
• 1:17:30
  It is structurally composed of entities
• 1:17:34
  who all have co equal voices and
• 1:17:37
  representation within the institution
• 1:17:40
  with huge caveats. Obviously, you know,
• 1:17:42
  the bigger the country, the more you can
• 1:17:44
  bully people around, which is also how
• 1:17:45
  communes work. But functionally speaking,
• 1:17:49
  the UN is built on consensus. So when the
• 1:17:51
  ISA is having these negotiations, they're
• 1:17:53
  not necessarily voting on the mining
• 1:17:55
  code. They're trying to consent to the
• 1:17:57
  mining. It's getting
• 1:17:58
  everyone into agreement.
• 1:18:00
  And that causes a lot of trouble. It
• 1:18:02
  causes a lot of heartache. It's very
• 1:18:04
  difficult to get 169 nations to consent
• 1:18:07
  on one thing on anything. So there's a
• 1:18:11
  lot of political back and forth. There's
• 1:18:13
  a lot of these maneuvers.
• 1:18:14
  And there are kind of these these
• 1:18:16
  consensual agreements about like how
• 1:18:19
  decisions are made and when there are
• 1:18:21
  disagreements, how those get decided. So
• 1:18:22
  there is it loss, the international
• 1:18:24
  tribunal on the Law of the Sea, which
• 1:18:26
  will hear cases between member states who
• 1:18:29
  believe that they're
• 1:18:29
  in violation of UNCLOS.
• 1:18:31
  But critically, the US is not a member
• 1:18:34
  state. We are not party to UNCLOS. We
• 1:18:36
  have treated it as customary law and we
• 1:18:38
  have accepted it as custom money law,
• 1:18:40
  customary law, which means for most of
• 1:18:41
  the existence of the Law of the Sea, we
• 1:18:44
  have been beholden to it, but not in a
• 1:18:46
  position to negotiate it.
• 1:18:50
  If we say we're just going to ignore it,
• 1:18:54
  who like the repercussions are trade
• 1:18:59
  disputes, which I don't know if you're
• 1:19:00
  aware, but the US does not appear to be
• 1:19:02
  particularly concerned about angering all
• 1:19:04
  of its trade partners at the moment.
• 1:19:06
  Apparently not.
• 1:19:08
  There can be punitive actions about
• 1:19:09
  access to resources and access supply.
• 1:19:11
  China can say, well, we're just going to
• 1:19:13
  shut down your access to
• 1:19:14
  all our other resources.
• 1:19:15
  Yeah.
• 1:19:17
  You know, there can be like diplomatic
• 1:19:19
  consequences. Embassies can get kicked
• 1:19:21
  out. Visas can get revoked. It can become
• 1:19:24
  much more difficult for an American to
• 1:19:26
  travel to different countries.
• 1:19:29
  But in terms of actual like hardline
• 1:19:31
  punitive actions, there really isn't
• 1:19:33
  anything. It's not going to spark a war.
• 1:19:35
  No one's going to be sailing off to like
• 1:19:37
  arrest the United States vessels that are
• 1:19:40
  mining in the high seas.
• 1:19:42
  What could happen is that other countries
• 1:19:44
  can decide, okay, well, if UNCLOS is no
• 1:19:46
  longer the law of the sea, if that is not
• 1:19:48
  holding the US back, then
• 1:19:50
  why should it hold us back?
• 1:19:51
  And countries like Russia and China can
• 1:19:52
  say, okay, well, we don't care about
• 1:19:54
  UNCLOS now either. We're pulling out of
• 1:19:55
  the treaty. And then it
• 1:19:57
  becomes a real free for all.
• 1:19:59
  Yeah. And then it comes in. It doesn't
• 1:20:00
  matter what protection or what agreements
• 1:20:02
  we do. It's people are just
• 1:20:03
  going to do whatever they want.
• 1:20:05
  So it's not a good leadership position to
• 1:20:07
  take from a world perspective.
• 1:20:09
  Yeah. And that's why it's so dangerous to
• 1:20:10
  disrupt this very state and very well
• 1:20:13
  respected multilateral agreement.
• 1:20:16
  Yeah. Now, it's interesting. There's a
• 1:20:18
  lot of headache around deep sea mining
• 1:20:21
  anyway for any country to do.
• 1:20:23
  We've seen it before. Anybody who's done
• 1:20:26
  it has been shamed multiple times.
• 1:20:29
  Protests have happened and so forth.
• 1:20:31
  You have the US who's not signed on or
• 1:20:34
  not ratified the Law of the Seas. So
• 1:20:36
  there's a lot of
• 1:20:36
  probably headaches around that.
• 1:20:38
  We've seen a lot of people discuss what
• 1:20:38
  the problems could be internally. There's
• 1:20:41
  probably going to be a lot of
• 1:20:42
  environmental regulations that are going
• 1:20:44
  to be ignored or rolled back just to
• 1:20:45
  allow this to happen.
• 1:20:47
  But you also mentioned that it's
• 1:20:49
  something that can't happen in the next
• 1:20:52
  two years where they become profitable.
• 1:20:54
  They still don't have a way to refine it.
• 1:20:57
  They're just going to stockpile it. It's
• 1:21:00
  expensive. So should we be worried? Is
• 1:21:05
  this something to worry about from an
• 1:21:08
  ocean conservation perspective?
• 1:21:10
  From an ocean conservation perspective,
• 1:21:12
  absolutely. It is an industry we need to
• 1:21:15
  be following very closely. It is an
• 1:21:17
  industry we need to be fighting to make
• 1:21:18
  sure has the most stringent possible
• 1:21:21
  environmental rules that we can.
• 1:21:24
  The reality is one of the reasons we
• 1:21:27
  don't see a lot of deep sea mining in
• 1:21:29
  national waters is because it is a
• 1:21:31
  politically difficult
• 1:21:32
  position for a lot of countries.
• 1:21:33
  And so there is a difference in the way
• 1:21:37
  your citizens and your constituents think
• 1:21:39
  about what's happening in your waters
• 1:21:41
  versus what's happening in the high seas.
• 1:21:44
  And I think that's why there's been so
• 1:21:45
  much focus on the high seas as of late.
• 1:21:49
  The financial reality of deep sea mining,
• 1:21:53
  I'm, you know, we've talked about this
• 1:21:54
  before. I'm one of those who thinks that
• 1:21:57
  the financial viability is a bit
• 1:22:00
  optimistic coming from
• 1:22:02
  the mining companies.
• 1:22:03
  I'm not entirely convinced that it will
• 1:22:05
  ever be a particularly profitable
• 1:22:06
  industry. And I'm because of that, I'm a
• 1:22:10
  little bit more willing to say, okay,
• 1:22:12
  well, let's see what your first, you
• 1:22:14
  know, pilot studies look like.
• 1:22:15
  You know, let's, you know, I may be the
• 1:22:18
  fastest way to bring about the end of
• 1:22:20
  deep sea mining is to let them do those
• 1:22:21
  first pilot studies and really show that
• 1:22:23
  like the profitability and the viability
• 1:22:25
  of extracting resources from the deep
• 1:22:27
  ocean is not viable or not a financially
• 1:22:31
  productive endeavor.
• 1:22:33
  You know, I could be entirely wrong about
• 1:22:35
  that. I'm not an economist. You know, I
• 1:22:37
  look at my stock market portfolio and I'm
• 1:22:39
  like, oh, I don't I don't really know how
• 1:22:40
  to pick a company.
• 1:22:41
  That's definitely for sure.
• 1:22:44
  Well, the way I hear it is if you just if
• 1:22:47
  you if you tank the stock market and then
• 1:22:49
  you buy everything at that point and it
• 1:22:51
  goes up, you make billions of dollars.
• 1:22:53
  That's what I've heard. That's how you
• 1:22:54
  make money in the stock market these
• 1:22:55
  days. It sounds like anyway.
• 1:22:57
  I mean, I heard a bunch of people said I
• 1:22:59
  should go buy doggy. And so I went to the
• 1:23:01
  I went to the pound and now I've got like
• 1:23:03
  six puppies, but they
• 1:23:04
  just they cost money.
• 1:23:07
  You're always sinking
• 1:23:08
  money into those doggies. Yeah.
• 1:23:10
  But no, so I think, you know, the metals
• 1:23:14
  company is an interesting case because I
• 1:23:16
  don't think they've at this point, it
• 1:23:20
  really doesn't seem like they've done the
• 1:23:21
  work to develop the goodwill to get that
• 1:23:23
  social license to go on to the next.
• 1:23:25
  Right.
• 1:23:27
  And I think five months ago, I might have
• 1:23:29
  said something different. But blowing up
• 1:23:32
  the international regime like this, I
• 1:23:33
  think has has sapped them up. They're
• 1:23:35
  goodwill and possible metals like their
• 1:23:37
  technology is interesting.
• 1:23:38
  I want to see how it works. I want to see
• 1:23:40
  it go. I want to see a pilot study. I
• 1:23:44
  want to actually like we're not going to
• 1:23:45
  understand really what the impacts of
• 1:23:46
  this technology are going to be until we
• 1:23:48
  see those first go small scale pilots.
• 1:23:50
  And, you know, I think impossible metals
• 1:23:52
  has has has done a little bit more on the
• 1:23:55
  social licensing side of thing. And like,
• 1:23:57
  I'd be you know, I'd be willing to see,
• 1:24:00
  you know, what that first small
• 1:24:02
  experimental pilot study looks like
• 1:24:04
  before I make any judgment calls about
• 1:24:06
  whether or not they
• 1:24:07
  should be permitted to mine.
• 1:24:07
  I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm not 100%
• 1:24:10
  weighted either. You know, if deep sea
• 1:24:13
  mining is an inevitability, I want the
• 1:24:15
  people that are doing the best with
• 1:24:18
  regard to environment, not necessarily
• 1:24:20
  perfect, but at least, you know, doing
• 1:24:22
  the best they can to be
• 1:24:23
  the ones that get to advance.
• 1:24:26
  So yeah, it's a tricky.
• 1:24:28
  But they got rejected last time, though,
• 1:24:30
  right? Like they got rejected from during
• 1:24:31
  the last administration. Do you know why
• 1:24:33
  they got rejected? Was
• 1:24:34
  that anything particular?
• 1:24:34
  My understanding is American Samoa, their
• 1:24:38
  local government was opposed. They have
• 1:24:41
  had they've also flipped parties. I think
• 1:24:43
  they have a new governor now. So that
• 1:24:46
  that could change
• 1:24:46
  things that could change.
• 1:24:49
  And, you know, perhaps their technology
• 1:24:50
  wasn't as far as along during their first
• 1:24:52
  application as it is now. And, you know,
• 1:24:54
  they there just was a big congressional
• 1:24:56
  hearing. And now there's more excitement
• 1:24:58
  about deep sea mining.
• 1:24:59
  So I think they're probably feeling
• 1:25:03
  pretty optimistic right now that they're
• 1:25:05
  going to get that permit approved. And,
• 1:25:07
  you know, in the hearing, the CEO of
• 1:25:10
  impossible was very much like we're just
• 1:25:12
  at the beginning here.
• 1:25:13
  We're still doing the environmental work.
• 1:25:15
  We're not going to go full bore
• 1:25:17
  commercial mining until we've done those
• 1:25:18
  studies. And so, you know, I feel at this
• 1:25:22
  juncture, I want to see those studies.
• 1:25:24
  Yeah, yeah, of course. Now it's just the
• 1:25:26
  science the hell out of it. Right. It's
• 1:25:28
  like, how do we how do we figure out and
• 1:25:31
  especially if it's in a pilot project in
• 1:25:33
  a smaller place, you know, and hopefully
• 1:25:36
  that guy hate to say it
• 1:25:37
  for the impossible company.
• 1:25:39
  But it's like, hopefully it's not viable
• 1:25:40
  and we don't have to worry about this.
• 1:25:42
  And it's all been for nothing. However, I
• 1:25:43
  mean, the other the other side of the
• 1:25:44
  coin is, you know, if it is
• 1:25:45
  viable, maybe they're technology.
• 1:25:47
  I mean, maybe all their technology lives
• 1:25:49
  up to the hype. Yeah, I'd love to be
• 1:25:51
  proven wrong in such a way that like
• 1:25:53
  their technology does live up to their
• 1:25:56
  claims and like we have that like shiny
• 1:25:58
  golden optimistic future of giant robots
• 1:26:01
  because who doesn't love a giant robot.
• 1:26:03
  I love a giant robot.
• 1:26:06
  Well, I hear they're making a Voltron
• 1:26:07
  movie. So maybe that's that'll be the
• 1:26:08
  closest we get to a giant robot soon. But
• 1:26:10
  you never know. You never know what might
• 1:26:13
  happen. So like for people listening to
• 1:26:15
  this, they've they've heard us talk about
• 1:26:17
  deep sea mining a lot. Right.
• 1:26:19
  Now we have this executive order. Some
• 1:26:21
  people are not going to be too happy
• 1:26:23
  about about this. You know, people are
• 1:26:25
  going to be concerned, as you
• 1:26:27
  mentioned, as they should be.
• 1:26:28
  We know this administration is not big on
• 1:26:31
  environmental policy. We know that
• 1:26:34
  certain mining companies seems a little
• 1:26:36
  desperate or the metals company.
• 1:26:38
  Sorry, they seem a little desperate. As
• 1:26:40
  you mentioned, they might be running out
• 1:26:41
  of money. And so they have this either
• 1:26:43
  now or never. The impossible company like
• 1:26:46
  metal company like they they seem to have
• 1:26:49
  the environment in mind.
• 1:26:51
  And so we're that's that's a good thing
• 1:26:53
  in terms of having a company that wants
• 1:26:56
  to do this, but also wants to do it the
• 1:26:57
  right way and think of
• 1:26:59
  like any kind of implications.
• 1:27:01
  But when it comes down to it, money money
• 1:27:02
  rules in a capitalistic society. And what
• 1:27:06
  can what can what can people do? You
• 1:27:11
  know, they're listening to this and like
• 1:27:13
  how like how should they feel and and and
• 1:27:16
  and and what what can they do to to help
• 1:27:18
  if they don't want to see
• 1:27:19
  to see mining happen in US.
• 1:27:20
  What is happening in US waters or in in
• 1:27:22
  the high seas? If you if you don't want
• 1:27:24
  to see deep sea mining happen, this is
• 1:27:28
  not the moment to panic.
• 1:27:30
  You know, the metals company is making a
• 1:27:32
  move that I think is based out of
• 1:27:33
  desperation. That's a good
• 1:27:34
  sign if you're opposed to deep.
• 1:27:36
  You know, I don't I don't I'm not
• 1:27:41
  particularly optimistic about any company
• 1:27:43
  that's that's that's hinging its
• 1:27:45
  financial future on
• 1:27:46
  the Trump administration.
• 1:27:47
  Generally speaking, Trump comes out of
• 1:27:49
  everything perfectly fine. And all of the
• 1:27:51
  people that partner with them either end
• 1:27:53
  up bankrupt or in jail. So
• 1:27:55
  I think that's a risky move.
• 1:27:56
  It's a very risky move. And, you know, if
• 1:27:59
  you're if you're a private company, it's
• 1:28:00
  probably the only move you have. You got
• 1:28:01
  to work with the administration that
• 1:28:03
  you've you've got. You can't you can't
• 1:28:04
  wait it out for four years.
• 1:28:06
  But, you know, calling your
• 1:28:09
  representatives, Congress just had a
• 1:28:11
  hearing on it. There will almost
• 1:28:12
  certainly be some form of a vote. It
• 1:28:14
  might be a pro form of vote. It might not
• 1:28:16
  be. There may not ever be a
• 1:28:17
  bill about deep sea mining.
• 1:28:19
  But you should let your Congressperson
• 1:28:20
  know that that's what matters to you. If
• 1:28:23
  you're not in the US, reach out to your
• 1:28:25
  representatives. However, you are
• 1:28:28
  represented with your own government. Let
• 1:28:30
  them know where you stand on the US
• 1:28:33
  flaunting the international order.
• 1:28:35
  And, you know, really at this moment, you
• 1:28:39
  know, supporting the NGOs that are
• 1:28:41
  bringing up the legal cases against them,
• 1:28:45
  supporting the NGOs that are that are
• 1:28:46
  doing protest work, if that's what you
• 1:28:48
  want, is really
• 1:28:50
  probably the best way to go.
• 1:28:51
  You know, it's a tricky industry because
• 1:28:52
  until now it's all been purely
• 1:28:55
  international, which means it's much
• 1:28:57
  harder for stakeholders to be directly
• 1:28:58
  involved. But on the other hand, letting
• 1:29:02
  your elected
• 1:29:03
  representatives know how you feel.
• 1:29:03
  It's always, you know, the most important
• 1:29:06
  thing you can do. Write letters to the
• 1:29:08
  editor. Get some letters in your local
• 1:29:10
  papers. I'm going to I'm writing a letter
• 1:29:12
  from my local paper because I'm because
• 1:29:14
  I'm me and like, you know, my county has
• 1:29:17
  one of the, you know, not to toot my own
• 1:29:20
  horn, but there's not that many experts
• 1:29:21
  on deep sea mining and I'm one of them.
• 1:29:23
  So I could at least lean on the local
• 1:29:25
  angle for that and get our local paper.
• 1:29:29
  You know, small things like that matter.
• 1:29:32
  Keep making sure you know, you're not
• 1:29:33
  getting surprised by things keeping track
• 1:29:36
  of the industry as it develops.
• 1:29:37
  If you're on blue sky, we have a deep sea
• 1:29:39
  mining feed you can subscribe to that
• 1:29:42
  tracks all the deep sea mining news so
• 1:29:44
  you can you can stay abreast of
• 1:29:45
  everything happening.
• 1:29:47
  And you know, at this moment at this
• 1:29:50
  juncture, there's not much you can do
• 1:29:52
  once the permits are being reviewed,
• 1:29:56
  there will be a public comment period. So
• 1:29:59
  US citizens especially should participate
• 1:30:01
  in that public comment period, period,
• 1:30:03
  whether you're opposed or in favor.
• 1:30:05
  Right.
• 1:30:06
  You should participate in the public
• 1:30:07
  comment period. And yeah, it's, it's,
• 1:30:12
  it's a wild moment in time. I don't
• 1:30:13
  really have a great handle on where
• 1:30:16
  things are going next. You know, it's
• 1:30:18
  possible six months from now,
• 1:30:19
  everything's going to blow up in
• 1:30:20
  everyone's face and we're not gonna,
• 1:30:22
  there will be, you know, another deep sea
• 1:30:24
  mining company will declare bankruptcy,
• 1:30:25
  which, by the way, look Marine, which
• 1:30:27
  bought out the Lockheed mining leases
• 1:30:29
  declared bankruptcy last month.
• 1:30:31
  So, okay, that's another deep sea mining
• 1:30:33
  company that has proven non viable. So
• 1:30:35
  right, right. It's a very dynamic moment
• 1:30:38
  in the history of the industry. And it'll
• 1:30:40
  be fascinating to follow.
• 1:30:42
  And it will be and we'll follow it and
• 1:30:45
  with with your help and and we'll we'll
• 1:30:47
  put that link to that blue sky feed to in
• 1:30:49
  the show notes that people can get access
• 1:30:51
  to it, as well as Southern fried science
• 1:30:53
  because you keep putting you and your
• 1:30:55
  fellow writers David Schiffman and Angela
• 1:30:57
  Gomez and others who keep putting out
• 1:30:59
  these great articles on not only science
• 1:31:02
  communication, Brett Favaro as well, but
• 1:31:04
  also all in the what's happening with
• 1:31:06
  policy and what we should be looking at
• 1:31:08
  and keeping everybody informed on these specifics that don't always
• 1:31:10
  get into the mainstream media and not and
• 1:31:14
  definitely not in that detail. So I'll
• 1:31:16
  link to Southern Fried Science as well.
• 1:31:19
  Yeah, I think it's interesting. I was
• 1:31:22
  surprised that the U.S. was entertaining
• 1:31:25
  a Canadian company to doing some of the
• 1:31:28
  work because I put up my last post because it is.
• 1:31:28
  They created a U.S. subsidy just for
• 1:31:34
  this. But like, yeah, everyone sees
• 1:31:36
  through that. It's a Canadian company.
• 1:31:37
  It's a Canadian company. I put up the
• 1:31:39
  post last time and one of the comments
• 1:31:41
  like get out of there. So I thought it
• 1:31:43
  was I thought it was interesting.
• 1:31:44
  It might make him even more unpopular if
• 1:31:46
  he loves a Canadian company to to mine in
• 1:31:49
  U.S. water. So yeah, it'll definitely be
• 1:31:51
  interesting to follow. So, Andrew, we
• 1:31:53
  always appreciate you coming on and
• 1:31:55
  informing us and keeping us abreast of what we're doing.
• 1:31:55
  And it's always it's always helpful. And
• 1:32:02
  then like the biggest thing is just
• 1:32:03
  educate, you know, you get your education
• 1:32:05
  up, get your information in a row, making
• 1:32:07
  sure we get the right information, tuning
• 1:32:09
  into this podcast or going to Southern
• 1:32:11
  Fried Science or both.
• 1:32:12
  Definitely both and and saying, hey,
• 1:32:14
  look, I'm going to keep aware of what to
• 1:32:17
  do. So you have some great talking points
• 1:32:19
  in those articles. So I think people
• 1:32:21
  should should definitely check them out.
• 1:32:23
  So thanks a lot. I do appreciate you
• 1:32:25
  doing this such last minute. And and I
• 1:32:29
  just I can't wait to have you back on to
• 1:32:30
  talk more, more deep sea mining and other
• 1:32:32
  projects that you have on.
• 1:32:33
  I have a feeling I'll be back.
• 1:32:34
  It's awesome. I'm sure you will. It'll
• 1:32:39
  probably be the next couple of weeks. Who
• 1:32:40
  knows? But it'll be fun. Thanks a lot. I
• 1:32:42
  really appreciate it. You're very
• 1:32:44
  welcome. Thanks for having me on. Thank
• 1:32:45
  you, Andrew, for joining us on today's
• 1:32:47
  episode of the how to protect the ocean
• 1:32:48
  podcast. It was great to talk to you
• 1:32:49
  again. Obviously, it's always great to
• 1:32:51
  have Andrew on the podcast. He's one of
• 1:32:52
  our regulars, maybe even one of the
• 1:32:54
  people who've been on the podcast the
• 1:32:56
  most. I don't know. I think it's true,
• 1:32:58
  but we'll have to go and look at that.
• 1:33:00
  But it's something that we always
• 1:33:01
  appreciate, Andrew. You appreciate your time. We appreciate your insights.
• 1:33:04
  I enjoyed like a policy guru when it
• 1:33:06
  comes to this kind of stuff, especially
• 1:33:07
  when it comes to the deep sea. And so it
• 1:33:09
  was really nice to be able to have him to
• 1:33:10
  explain all the different intricacies of
• 1:33:13
  the policies that would come into play
• 1:33:15
  and how they would be able to either get
• 1:33:17
  around it or even just the fact of
• 1:33:19
  putting things into production, like how
• 1:33:21
  realistic is it to put things into
• 1:33:22
  production within the span of this next
• 1:33:24
  term that Donald Trump is in right where
• 1:33:26
  he's signing. He wants to see this
• 1:33:27
  happen. It's going to be interesting to
• 1:33:29
  see what happens. But it's also a little
• 1:33:32
  scary seeing how things can do.
• 1:33:34
  And I'm sure it's sort of just not work
• 1:33:35
  out or just slide down that slippery
• 1:33:38
  slope as easy as it does. And that's
• 1:33:40
  what's scary to me. I'm sure it's what's
• 1:33:41
  scary to Andrew and a lot of other people
• 1:33:43
  around the world when it comes to deep
• 1:33:45
  sea mining. So we are going to see what
• 1:33:46
  happens. But I would love to hear your
• 1:33:48
  comments on this. I'm going to put links
• 1:33:50
  to what Andrew mentioned, the blue sky
• 1:33:51
  feed as well as Southern fried science.
• 1:33:54
  But also, I want to hear what you think
• 1:33:55
  about this whole deep sea mining. Do you
• 1:33:57
  think this is good for the U.S.? Do you
• 1:33:58
  think it's not? No judgment here. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Put a comment down below if you're watching this on YouTube or if you're listening to this. I'm going to be talking to you soon.
• 1:34:18
  I'm Andrew and I'm your host, Andrew. I'm
• 1:34:24
  your host, Andrew. And have a great day.
• 1:34:26
  I'll talk to you next
• 1:34:26
  time. And have a conservation.