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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 20 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news Savannah Guthrie's mother,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie missing, day twenty. How is this happening? Good evening,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: Now.
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  Speaker 1: The theory of an accomplice making Nancy guthries kidnapping possible
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  Speaker 1: is brewing, bubbling, surfacing up. What do we know about
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  Speaker 1: an accomplice? What is the theory behind that? Not only
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  Speaker 1: that the drum beat louder that somehow a Mexican cartel
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  Speaker 1: is involved. I find that very difficult to believe. Nothing
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  Speaker 1: about Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping has any hallmark of a cartel operation.
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  Speaker 1: This as Google is working fast and furious to recover
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  Speaker 1: even more video, possibly audience, biological matter.
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  Speaker 3: And DNA found in the home.
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  Speaker 1: This as Sheriff Nanos blurts out more strategic information, that
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  Speaker 1: being that he thinks there's an accomplice and that he
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  Speaker 1: believes Nancy Guthrie is being held close to home. Nia's
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  Speaker 1: flash accomplice. We know about you, and the Sheriff's looking
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  Speaker 1: for you. Way to go, Nanos, You're like a gumball machine.
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  Speaker 1: I said it last night.
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  Speaker 3: It's up here. It just comes out. You can't stop it.
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  Speaker 1: Not only that revealing his belief that Nancy Guthrie is
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  Speaker 1: close to home. Is that why we see raids on neighbors?
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  Speaker 1: All this is happening now and more straight out to
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  Speaker 1: Dave Mac, Crime Stories investigative reporter and as we mentioned before,
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  Speaker 1: Dave Mac, the Guthrie family feeling the onus upon them
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  Speaker 1: to try and get searches started in Mexico. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it just never ends with all their going through.
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  Speaker 3: You know, Dave, let me just be blunt.
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  Speaker 1: You and I have talked many, many, many times off camera.
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  Speaker 3: You were a guest, one of my.
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  Speaker 1: Favorite guests all the way back at HLN.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know if you recall that or not.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I remember, yeah, good times. But Dave, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know how I would have done it if right
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  Speaker 1: after my fiance was murdered, I was told, okay, now
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  Speaker 1: you help us solve it, okay and get busy.
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  Speaker 3: It's insane.
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  Speaker 1: But Savannah, our friend, Savannah Guthrie, feels they have to
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  Speaker 1: reach out to groups in Mexico to try and find
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  Speaker 1: her mother. I mean, insanity. But let's start with the latest. Man,
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  Speaker 1: I was blurting out he believes that Nancy Guthrie is
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  Speaker 1: being held close to home.
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  Speaker 3: Why is he saying that?
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  Speaker 1: And about an accomplice? What about those polygraphs? You've heard
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  Speaker 1: nothing about them. Bring me up to date, you.
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  Speaker 4: Know, Nancy the accomplice. Let's start with the accomplice because
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  Speaker 4: this goes to the nitty gritty of you know, you
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  Speaker 4: talked about how Nanos just his blurting stuff the other day.
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  Speaker 5: That's what he was doing.
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  Speaker 4: He blurted out that he believes there's an accomplice. And
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  Speaker 4: the suggestion is that we have the video of the
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  Speaker 4: bungling burglar at the front door, or the bungling kidnapper,
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  Speaker 4: not burglar, and we don't see a second person, but
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  Speaker 4: we know we've got an eighty four year old woman
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  Speaker 4: who lacks mobility and is going to need help to
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  Speaker 4: leave a lot of a lot of what Nanos is saying,
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  Speaker 4: I really think he's just kind of theorizing in his
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  Speaker 4: head and just blurting out ideas because he doesn't know
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  Speaker 4: what to say.
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  Speaker 5: But Nancy's suggesting.
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  Speaker 1: Do you recall what I told you my elected district attorney.
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  Speaker 3: He was like a grandfather to meet. Lewis Layton.
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  Speaker 1: At the time, he was the longest serving elected d
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  Speaker 1: eight in the country. I believe it was thirty seven years.
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  Speaker 1: And he had a rule, do not speak to the press,
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  Speaker 1: And whenever I would be cornered coming in or out
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  Speaker 1: of the courthouse, I would always say the same thing
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  Speaker 1: they seemingly never caught on. I would always say, I
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  Speaker 1: believe the jury will return a true verdict.
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  Speaker 3: That's it. That would be it.
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  Speaker 1: So all the spinning out, let's say, I'm just talking
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  Speaker 1: out loud.
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  Speaker 3: It's insane.
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  Speaker 1: That's a huge, huge no no to Franz Borcart joining us,
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  Speaker 1: a criminal defense attorney, founder of Borcart's law firm, former prosecutor,
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  Speaker 1: professor a Louisiana State University. Franz, that's just what the
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  Speaker 1: defense team would love and what the kidnapper loves.
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  Speaker 3: He is, and it's a he.
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  Speaker 1: He is getting all of his information any think he
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  Speaker 1: needs to know from nanos.
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  Speaker 6: I can't believe they are still taught looking to the press.
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  Speaker 6: And you're absolutely right, Nancy. As a defense attorney, I'm
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  Speaker 6: just taking notes. I'm sitting back and I'm going to
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  Speaker 6: do a search for any and everything that was said
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  Speaker 6: before the arrest, because eventually they're going to make an
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  Speaker 6: arrest on this one. But yeah, he needs to shut
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  Speaker 6: his hole and just and stop because he's not helping
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  Speaker 6: the investigation.
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  Speaker 3: No, he's not.
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  Speaker 1: And you know another thing of fronts my elected district attorneys,
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  Speaker 1: who for me is a gold standard. He never well,
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  Speaker 1: he did do some pressers, but it would always be
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  Speaker 1: the same. There would be a group of people nanos
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  Speaker 1: is cherry picking the teacher's pets that throw softball questions.
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  Speaker 3: And interviewing with them.
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  Speaker 1: But they don't really have to ask him much because
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  Speaker 1: he'll just keep on thinking out loud. Okay, I can
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  Speaker 1: talk about Nana's all day. That's not advancing the investigation.
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  Speaker 1: And early this morning, Dave Mack texted me Savannah Guthrie
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  Speaker 1: may not go back to the Today Show. Dave, I
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  Speaker 1: understand your interest in our friends Savannah and what's gonna
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  Speaker 1: happen with the Today's Show, But really, to everyone on
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  Speaker 1: the panel, Savannah's future intentions about her career have nothing
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  Speaker 1: to do with advancing the search for Nancy Guthrie. So
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  Speaker 1: let's leave her at Her efforts regarding the Today Show
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  Speaker 1: are not out of this equation has nothing to do
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  Speaker 1: with this. That's just office politics going on in New
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  Speaker 1: York City. She's in the fight of her life trying
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  Speaker 1: to find her mother. Okay, let's get down to it.
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  Speaker 1: These are some ideas I came up with. Okay, Joe
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  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Franks, and everybody on the panel.
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  Speaker 3: Look around.
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  Speaker 1: We're not in eighth grade science class. I'm not your
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  Speaker 1: teacher calling on you. So if you have anything to add,
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  Speaker 1: your awesome experts, your experts in your field, jump in
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  Speaker 1: with me.
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  Speaker 7: First.
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, with an
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  Speaker 1: incredible criminal program there, author of Blood Beneath My Feet
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  Speaker 1: on Amazon, of Hitting You podcast Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.
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  Speaker 1: That aside, he's a death investigator over ten thousand death
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  Speaker 1: scenes of all sorts, not just murder, but accidental, natural suicide,
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  Speaker 1: unexplained the works ten thousand in counting, Joe Scott, listen
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  Speaker 1: to this jump in first of all behavioral Clues Control Room.
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  Speaker 3: Could I please.
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  Speaker 1: See the video from the get go and especially the
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  Speaker 1: part where the front porch guy is rooting around trying
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  Speaker 1: to get that foliage to cover up the door cam.
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  Speaker 1: And hey, Joe Scott as an aside. Good thing that
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  Speaker 1: he disabled the door cam because now we know it
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  Speaker 1: would have recorded over this video if he had not
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  Speaker 1: dismantled it.
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  Speaker 3: So he kind of did me a favor in that
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  Speaker 3: small way.
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  Speaker 2: I know.
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  Speaker 1: Really idiot, Okay, So behavioral clues Joe Scott watch him
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  Speaker 1: when he got when he's down there trying to get
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  Speaker 1: the foliage it many people believe, and I'm still looking
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  Speaker 1: for it, but many people believe the suspect makes a
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  Speaker 1: gesture to someone off camera right after he removes the foliage.
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  Speaker 1: He seems to be looking off. Also, many people believe
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  Speaker 1: that he gestures or nods or something off Kim okay.
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  Speaker 1: Also maneuvering Missus Guthrie. You know, Joe Scott, you know
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  Speaker 1: my mom.
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  Speaker 3: She lives with me.
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  Speaker 1: She's ninety four and she's a tiny, little bitty thing.
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  Speaker 1: But even me trying to get her up, I'll have
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  Speaker 1: to call somebody to help me because it's hard you
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  Speaker 1: lose control of them that could fall. It's really a
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  Speaker 1: two person job maneuvering Missus Guthrie around. Also, there's multiple
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  Speaker 1: stranger DNA in the home. We have been told multiple
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  Speaker 1: stranger DNA, not someone close to Missus.
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  Speaker 3: Guthrie, not anybody in the family.
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  Speaker 1: The complex logistics, very complex LEGIONI. For instance, if the
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  Speaker 1: ransom note is connected. If it's connected, that is a
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  Speaker 1: very sophisticated bitcoin demand. And not only that, the most
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  Speaker 1: recent note asks for a bitcoin alternative, something like Monaro, which,
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  Speaker 1: as you know, it masks the sender and the receiver.
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  Speaker 1: And this it's invisible on the blockchain, the way that
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  Speaker 1: most bitcoin is tracked and trace. That's how the FBI,
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  Speaker 1: the dj the IRS busts bitcoin fraud through the blockchain analysis.
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  Speaker 1: It's really simple. It sounds difficult, but the way that
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  Speaker 1: transactions are entered, it's like a big Google shared doc.
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  Speaker 1: It looks like it's posted in blocks. That's just it
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  Speaker 1: looks like blocks. So they call it a block chain analysis.
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  Speaker 1: You follow the transaction until you get to the sender.
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  Speaker 1: Great potential for a lookout. Who is driving moving her
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  Speaker 1: to the first location and possibly a secondary or tertiary location.
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott could take two people, so there's a lot
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  Speaker 1: suggesting an accomplice and also control room. If you could
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  Speaker 1: show me the backpack photo and the no backpack photo
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  Speaker 1: juxtaposed against each other, so who gave him the backpack?
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  Speaker 3: How did that happen?
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  Speaker 1: See at one juncture he has the backpack one he
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  Speaker 1: doesn't and do not go down the rabbit hole with
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  Speaker 1: Dave Matt who said, it's really two people that look identical,
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  Speaker 1: same stature, wearing the exact same clothes. Don't do that,
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, do not? Okay, hit me accomplice?
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  Speaker 7: Well, the biggest tell, and I got to tell you
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  Speaker 7: it's breaking news here. I had not seen this before.
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  Speaker 7: And that is where he looks off camera to his
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  Speaker 7: left after he's retrieved these bits of grass and the weeds.
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  Speaker 7: It looks like the and he actually takes it and
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  Speaker 7: slaps the top of his hand as he's looking away
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  Speaker 7: from the camera at that point in time. It's very noticeable.
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  Speaker 7: I don't know if our folks in production can freeze that,
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  Speaker 7: but it's a huge tell to me when he grabs it,
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  Speaker 7: you know, and it looks like he's communicating with somebody
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  Speaker 7: right there. So to me, the.
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  Speaker 1: Gesture that must be the gesture Joe Scott, good eye.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, so's he's acknowledging the person to his left and
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  Speaker 7: he's doing this tapping. And here's something else, Nancy. I
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  Speaker 7: wonder if if they're doing this if that is an
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  Speaker 7: actual nonverbal sign where they're trying to remain quiet at
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  Speaker 7: this point in time, and how can the other person
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  Speaker 7: seem well? Remember one of the things that they've prattled
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  Speaker 7: on about in this case is that the neighbors had
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  Speaker 7: complained at some point in time that lights all up
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  Speaker 7: and down the street were to write, and at some
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  Speaker 7: point in time they dimmed this area. I don't know
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  Speaker 7: when that was, but that person must be in pretty
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  Speaker 7: close proximity to him for him just that little simple
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  Speaker 7: hand motion for him to pick up on it. What's
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  Speaker 7: he trying to do is he's trying to explain you
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  Speaker 7: know what he's doing. I've got this now, I'm going
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  Speaker 7: to cover the cam. Don't want to go too far field.
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  Speaker 7: But again, this goes to kind of either an incredible
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  Speaker 7: lack a presence of boldness or lack of preparedness. It
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  Speaker 7: would seem to me if you have an awareness of
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  Speaker 7: a nest cam before writhing, why wouldn't you have a
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  Speaker 7: piece of duct tape that you're just going to take
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  Speaker 7: and quickly slap it up there and then be done
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  Speaker 7: with that piece. But yeah, what what a hell of
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  Speaker 7: a mistake to make to rip this thing off, and
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  Speaker 7: then it's on the cloud and it's still it's still
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  Speaker 7: recording at this point in time. I don't know. To me,
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  Speaker 7: it just seems like a lack of forethought. They've got
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  Speaker 7: a lot of the pieces in place here, and I
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  Speaker 7: you know, as far as a ransom note and that
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  Speaker 7: sort of thing, I don't know about the connectivity of
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  Speaker 7: all of that, but so much of it seems like
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  Speaker 7: you've got opportunity that investigators would have had and maybe
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  Speaker 7: had missed at critical moments. And then you've got the
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  Speaker 7: Apple Dumpling Gang, if that's what this is, that are
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  Speaker 7: just kind of bumbling their way through this thing.
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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray too. Brian, It's Gibbons joining us,
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  Speaker 1: and Brian, I'm going to circle back to you on
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  Speaker 1: the possibility that this is a cartel operation, which is
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  Speaker 1: far fetched, extremely far fetched.
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  Speaker 3: I'll get you to.
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  Speaker 1: Explained why so we can put that away and get
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  Speaker 1: it off our table of analysis. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: He's the director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security. What
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  Speaker 1: is that He leads a team of investigators around the
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  Speaker 1: world finding missing people.
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  Speaker 3: He is a marine vet. He is a former marine
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  Speaker 3: and an Iraqi war vet.
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  Speaker 1: Let me talk to you about the possibility of an accomplice,
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  Speaker 1: because it's been out there circulating and the Nanas blurted
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  Speaker 1: it out that he thinks there may be an accomplice.
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  Speaker 3: Why he said that, I mean.
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  Speaker 1: Really, it's just like waving the red flag in front
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  Speaker 1: of a bull. It's like putting on the overhead speaker
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  Speaker 1: in high school. We now know there's an accomplice and
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  Speaker 1: we're coming after you, which in my mind would only
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  Speaker 1: make the accomplice panic. But that said, what leads you
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: to agree or disagree regarding an accomplice.
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  Speaker 8: I certainly agree with that, Nancy. I've been saying this
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  Speaker 8: since we started covering in this case. First of all,
• 15:03
  Speaker 8: just like we call him, you know, the bungling kidnapper
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  Speaker 8: on the porch, this is indicative to me that he's
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  Speaker 8: being controlled and supervised by somebody, That he did not
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  Speaker 8: do this alone, that this was just a foot soldier
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  Speaker 8: that was sent forward, you know, to disable that camera
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  Speaker 8: and gain entry to the house. So I think his
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  Speaker 8: lack of sophistication on that porch itself shows that there's
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  Speaker 8: there's someone else involved who's his superior.
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  Speaker 1: Nobody is binding about the backpack. I keep saying it
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  Speaker 1: and nobody's touching it. With ten footpol fitz Gibbons, he
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  Speaker 1: comes up to the saying.
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  Speaker 3: Let's say hi. When he first approaches.
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  Speaker 1: Who gave him the backpack? Because there is absolutely a
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  Speaker 1: moment he doesn't have the backpack. Where did it go?
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  Speaker 1: Who gave it to him? Was it in the car?
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  Speaker 1: Did he have to go retrieve it? And then he
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  Speaker 1: put it back in the car. So if there is
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  Speaker 1: a car, trust me, he didn't leave it laying out
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  Speaker 1: on the front lawn. So if there's a car, is
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  Speaker 1: somebody in the car, you really think, just think about
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  Speaker 1: it forensically, clinically.
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  Speaker 3: Would he do this alone?
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  Speaker 1: Because the reason I care, mis Gibbons is the more
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  Speaker 1: people involved, the more likely somebody's gonna talk. You've got
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  Speaker 1: an extra girlfriend, you've got an extra grandma or mom,
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  Speaker 1: or an extra neighbor or little sister. Somebody knows something's up,
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  Speaker 1: and that reward is climbing. That's why I care. If
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  Speaker 1: there's an accomplice, they can both go straight to hell
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  Speaker 1: and burn for all I care, But I want to
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  Speaker 1: catch them. So what do you think about the backpack aspect?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, and there's one.
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  Speaker 8: I agree with you there that that backpack wouldn't have
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  Speaker 8: just been placed on the ground on randomly. In that
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  Speaker 8: first video, when you see him approaching the porch, there's
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  Speaker 8: a shadow being cast from the left to the right,
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  Speaker 8: all right, indicative of that motion light that was destroyed.
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  Speaker 8: When you later see him without the backpack on, there
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  Speaker 8: is no there is no similar shadow. So you can
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  Speaker 8: extrapolate from that that you know he may have had
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  Speaker 8: tools either to gain access or to destroy that light,
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  Speaker 8: which we know was indeed destroyed on that side of
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  Speaker 8: the house.
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  Speaker 3: So how does that fit into the accomplished theory?
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  Speaker 8: Yeah, that's he's passing off that equipment after he's done
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  Speaker 8: with it, either storing it in a car because you know,
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  Speaker 8: now it's pitch black out in front of the house.
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  Speaker 5: You're not just going to leave the backpack and the
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  Speaker 5: pitch black on.
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  Speaker 1: The ground, you know, Brians Gibbons, that's really astute. Let
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: me keep looking at this while Brian talks because I
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: want to. I want everyone to see what he's talking about.
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  Speaker 1: You're right, when he walks up, there is the shadow.
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  Speaker 1: You can see that that bright nightlight is on, and
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  Speaker 1: it's not just his bite light it's lit up behind
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  Speaker 1: and behind the bite light as well. Okay, then as
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  Speaker 1: you look later without the backpack, everything's dark. I don't
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  Speaker 1: believe he climbed up and dismantled that night light on
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  Speaker 1: his own. That's a really good point, joining me. Doctor
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  Speaker 1: Michelle Joy, forensic clinical academic psychiatrist, author of The Schmuck
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: in My Office. You can find her at wes Philly
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  Speaker 1: Morbid Art. Doctor Michelle, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 1: What do you make of the psychological evaluation of whether
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: he had an accomplice?
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  Speaker 3: Did he do this all on his own?
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  Speaker 5: I think.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot to be garnered from the video, as
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: the other people interviewed so far have said, But I
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  Speaker 2: think that what makes the most sense to me is
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: his lack of factileness with everything right. I know that
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: exactly that gun there Some other former FBI agents had
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: spoken about just his lack of expertise with carrying a firearm.
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  Speaker 2: It's kind of polstered in front of him and waving
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: around and things like this. So I think that his
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: lack of sophistication makes me agree with the previous person
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  Speaker 2: that was interviewed, was that there's someone else directing most
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: likely this because the if being this bumbling as we've
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: used the word so far, just at the intro to
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: the scene, you wouldn't think that he would have coordinated,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: you know, anything successful enough to not only have this
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: person and when I say successfully, obviously tragically successfully to
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: you know, be able to extract her and to have
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: her you know, disappear for this long. It just seems
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: like something would have gone wrong from his perspective, you know,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: being a lone.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Actor crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Now there is the specter of cartel involvement, but after
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: speaking to border patrol officers and experts in the area,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I don't buy it. Cartels usually target people within Mexico.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Can anybody on this panel name a single US citizen
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: taken from.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: The US buy the cartels? Obviously no.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: So I've noticed in cartel schemes they typically correspond to
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: local events, local extortion plots, business dealings, drug issues. To
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons, do you agree or disagree you have rescue
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: people out of Mexico? Does this had any resemblance to
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: a cartail job?
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: Not at all, Nancy.
• 21:14
  Speaker 8: The primary reason is, just like you said, this is
• 21:19
  Speaker 8: a US citizen high profile and nature. This is going
• 21:23
  Speaker 8: to draw an incredible amount of and it has drawn
• 21:26
  Speaker 8: an incredible amount of media attention and an incredible amount
• 21:30
  Speaker 8: of unwanted.
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: Attention to the cartel from the US federal government.
• 21:35
  Speaker 8: The second point that I'm going to make is all
• 21:37
  Speaker 8: the hallmarks of a typical cartel ransom and kidnapping, a
• 21:43
  Speaker 8: kidnapping ransom operation are not being met here. There would
• 21:47
  Speaker 8: be a clear and sophistic clear and sophisticated way to pay.
• 21:51
  Speaker 8: They would want to be able to cash out easily
• 21:55
  Speaker 8: and make that process very seamless.
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: This doesn't meet any of those criteria.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to Mexico, Brian has Gibbons.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Let's just pretend for one moment that she has been
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: moved to Mexico. That's not playing into all the crazy
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: z any cartel theories. But if she has been moved
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: to Mexico, what do you do to extract someone out
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: of Mexico. We know that the FEDS are accessing iph Emilia,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: which is the Mexican equivalent of our DNA databank CODIS,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: although it's used mostly for identifying bodies in murder cases. Also,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: of course, they're looking internationally at Interpol databases. I think
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: good news is that they are looking at the Arizona database,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: which is a lot less stringent. You get more information.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: For instance, suspects are in there, not pristine DNA DNA
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: mixtures are in there. The CODAS databank would not allow
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: everything that is allowed in the Arizona Data Data Bank.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: And that's good for this case.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: That's good for the Arizona search because you've got a
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: wider pull, just over half a million profiles in the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Arizona Data Bank. But back to Mexico, how would you
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: extract someone from Mexico?
• 23:19
  Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, you first need to understand that Mexico
• 23:23
  Speaker 8: is a very non permissible environment, especially to search for
• 23:28
  Speaker 8: a missing foreign national.
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: This is for a few reasons.
• 23:31
  Speaker 8: One, the levels of local government corruption in Mexico are
• 23:36
  Speaker 8: almost unfathomable to a typical American.
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: Second, wide swaths of territory are.
• 23:46
  Speaker 8: Primarily primarily controlled by cartels. That's both from a physical
• 23:52
  Speaker 8: security perspective and from a political perspective. And that all
• 23:57
  Speaker 8: leads me to say that the public, especially with such
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: a high profile case, will lack an urgency or willingness
• 24:06
  Speaker 8: to be involved in this search.
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: For fear, of reprisals.
• 24:11
  Speaker 8: You know, whether or not the cartel is or is
• 24:13
  Speaker 8: not involved, they do control these areas, so the public
• 24:16
  Speaker 8: will be very apprehensive to participate in this.
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: And that all leads me to say that.
• 24:22
  Speaker 8: Any search in Mexico that's going to be have a
• 24:26
  Speaker 8: positive result is going to come through US federal government
• 24:30
  Speaker 8: diplomatic channels. That is the number one main effort in
• 24:36
  Speaker 8: any search taking place in Mexico too.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Franz Borcards joining us, a veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: The relations between US and Mexico up and down, up
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: and down. But crossing the border when you're trying to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: go into Mexico, it's a lot easier to go into
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Mexico from the US and to go from Mexico back
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: into the statesm.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: You're not sure, I believe.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Dave mac told me that only one out of twenty
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: five cars get searched going across the border into Mexico.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: That does make it easier if they.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Want to hide her there.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: But then again, Franz, you've got Nanos blurting out that
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: he believes she's actually close to home.
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: Well, Nanos is an idiot, you know. And again there's
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: lots of different ways of crossing the border that doesn't
• 25:27
  Speaker 6: involve going through a gate. With sense and all that,
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: I don't think we can rely on anything Nanos is suggesting. Now, Look,
• 25:36
  Speaker 6: the big thing for me is is I do not
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: believe that the cartel kidnap this woman. I mean, the
• 25:43
  Speaker 6: cartel does not need bitcoin from the Gusbrie family. Do
• 25:48
  Speaker 6: I believe that there could be an individual who has
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: her in Mexico? Absolutely possible, And we have had joint
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: law enforcement efforts with Mexico before to get people out
• 26:00
  Speaker 6: of Mexico that had been trafficked or kidnapped. We also,
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: the only saving grace, Nancy, is if it is cartel,
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: then our dea, our federal d agents who are affording
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: with Mexican and law enforcement can help out. That's the
• 26:14
  Speaker 6: only advantage of that being true, which it's probably not.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about a different issue to you,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Joscott Morgan. We've been told again by Nanos that biological
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: matter he seemed to imply not DNA biological matter was found.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: What is he talking about? Is it the plant? What
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: is it?
• 26:38
  Speaker 7: Wow? That's that's a very broadswath, Nancy. Yeah, So are
• 26:43
  Speaker 7: we talking about flora or fauna here, you know, animal,
• 26:48
  Speaker 7: animal or vegetable. At this point in time, what would
• 26:52
  Speaker 7: be implied to me at least is that there is
• 26:55
  Speaker 7: some kind of deposition that and could he be talking
• 26:59
  Speaker 7: about some other type of body fluid. I have no idea,
• 27:03
  Speaker 7: you know, why he would go down this road unless
• 27:08
  Speaker 7: because you know, there is a field within our practice
• 27:12
  Speaker 7: of forensics that deals with foliage. Unless they're finding something
• 27:19
  Speaker 7: that might be connected with grasses, pollens, seeds, those sorts
• 27:24
  Speaker 7: of things, you know, I cannot imagine. Here's an interesting thing.
• 27:29
  Speaker 7: If they found something within the house, though, Nancy, that
• 27:34
  Speaker 7: may have been deposited there and it is not safe.
• 27:38
  Speaker 7: For instance, Oh, let me give you an example. Let's
• 27:40
  Speaker 7: just say that these individuals traveled in from another location,
• 27:45
  Speaker 7: Okay that is not not the same environmentally as what
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: you see around her house, and they deposited something within
• 27:56
  Speaker 7: that house, for instance, that is foreign, and they collected it.
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: Then maybe that's that could potentially be a clue. I
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: think a lot of us have been thinking that these
• 28:07
  Speaker 7: individuals that are here may very well be locals in
• 28:13
  Speaker 7: some way. But that's really the only only route that
• 28:17
  Speaker 7: I could go down thinking about this very very broad statement.
• 28:20
  Speaker 7: He's making news.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, right now DNA is being analyzed. We've heard is
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: being said to author him laboratories, the Milmans, who are
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: both brilliant.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: What do you make of that?
• 28:31
  Speaker 7: To Scott, I'm elated, absolutely elated. I wish that they
• 28:37
  Speaker 7: had done this earlier. I've been one of the biggest
• 28:40
  Speaker 7: voices banging on about this loath these many weeks because
• 28:44
  Speaker 7: I know personally what David and Kristen can do in
• 28:50
  Speaker 7: the woodlands in Texas. You know, my biggest fear in
• 28:53
  Speaker 7: Nancy through all of this is we've heard a lot
• 28:56
  Speaker 7: about DNA early on, and you know, Da, we all
• 29:00
  Speaker 7: know that it's very fragile. Now that they've taken whatever
• 29:04
  Speaker 7: these samples are and they shift them off to Florida,
• 29:07
  Speaker 7: now they're going to go go to Quantico, which was
• 29:11
  Speaker 7: probably a profile that they're comparing. I don't know that
• 29:14
  Speaker 7: the FEDS would have gone back and redone the work
• 29:18
  Speaker 7: down in Florida, But then you've got it coming down
• 29:21
  Speaker 7: to Houston. One of the things you run into with
• 29:25
  Speaker 7: DNA is that you burn through your sample, and you know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 7: people can say, well, you can always go back and
• 29:33
  Speaker 7: get more sample. Another hell you can't because if they've
• 29:37
  Speaker 7: isolated this and they found that, that makes this more
• 29:41
  Speaker 7: valuable than gold. So I hope that they've taken due care. Now,
• 29:45
  Speaker 7: with all of that said, if anyone, and I mean
• 29:49
  Speaker 7: anyone on the face of the planet, I can't bang
• 29:53
  Speaker 7: on enough about David Middleman, I think he is the
• 29:57
  Speaker 7: Elon Musk of DNA guys.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I agree with you, Jos Scott regarding Offram. I only
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: hope that it's true. They specialized in degraded, minuscule mixed DNA,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: and they cracked the Joseph DiAngelo Golden State killer case.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: They cracked the Rachel Morin case, where the El Salvadorian
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: immigrant had come into the.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: US fleeing a murder charge, sex.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Assaulted a little girl in La in her own home,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: and then sex assaulted and murdered Rachel morn on the
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Maw and Pa trail, remember that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: And they were on the Brian Coburger case.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: And you know that goes without describing, because that is
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: what broke the case wide open.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: A lot happening in the case.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: The fact that Sheriff Nano stated that Guthrie he believes
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: is being held close to home. Maybe so at the beginning,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons. Maybe at the beginning, but I don't think
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: they would have kept her there at the judge. I
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: think they would have moved her. But so many crimes
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: are committed by those in your close circle or that
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: know you family. They've been ruled out according to nanos
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: extended beyond that nanny, grandy, nanny's pool cleaners, yard workers,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: people at the church, people that know her delivery guys them,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: and then you go beyond like neighbors. We see that
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: a lot, this gibbus, but I don't think they would
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: keep her there for this long.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, No, you're absolutely right.
• 31:32
  Speaker 8: I mean we have to assume that that one layer
• 31:38
  Speaker 8: out of that peripheral with peripheral knowledge of missus Guthrie,
• 31:43
  Speaker 8: you know, the cousin of the pool cleaner, the boy
• 31:48
  Speaker 8: ex boyfriend of the home health carrying that these are
• 31:52
  Speaker 8: very likely people in this investigation that they're being looked.
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: At your point of where where would they keep her?
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: You know, I agree that you know she would likely
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: have to have been moved.
• 32:09
  Speaker 8: There's a ton of heat in Tucson, and everything you're
• 32:12
  Speaker 8: saying is making a lot of sense.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, whether you think it's inconsequential or not,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: please dial toll free eight hundred two two five five
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: three two four If you wish to remain anonymous five
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: two zero eight eight two seven four sixty three.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: There is over two hundred thousand dollars in reward.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night, and
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: until then, good night friend,