Latest / Inside Politics / The battle of the teals in Kooyong and Bradfield

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The battle of the teals in Kooyong and Bradfield · Inside Politics

• 0:00
  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
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  S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Tuesday, April 22nd.
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  S1: The threat the teal independents pose in this election to
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  S1: the dominance of the two party system, to the stability
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  S1: of our Parliament and to the Liberal Party's base, is
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  S1: very real. They're tricky competitors in an election, not a
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  S1: political party, but a movement of middle aged professional women
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  S1: who seem like the kind of people who could run
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  S1: either a listed company or the school committee, possibly both
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  S1: at the same time. They're precisely the cohort of female
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  S1: candidates that the major parties should have been preparing for
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  S1: preselection a decade ago. But they didn't. And now they're
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  S1: coming for even more Liberal Party seats this election. Today
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  S1: we're going to focus on two of those seats, Bradfield
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  S1: in Sydney and Kooyong in Melbourne, where the teals and
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  S1: the liberals are neck and neck. We welcome to the pod,
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  S1: our city reporter for The Age, Rachael Dexter, and our
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  S1: New South Wales political editor, Alexandra Smith. Welcome to you both.
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  S2: Thank you. Jack. Thanks, Jack.
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  S1: Right. You've been covering the highly contested seat of Kooyong
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  S1: in Melbourne, which turned teal three years ago in a
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  S1: big upset when Monique Ryan defeated former treasurer Josh Frydenberg.
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  S1: And Josh Frydenberg is not going to be contesting the
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  S1: seat again this time. Instead, Ryan is up against Liberal
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  S1: royalty Amelia Hammer this time around, and the election has
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  S1: been the location of a fairly acrimonious battle between the two,
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  S1: hasn't it?
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  S3: It has Jack. It's not been boring at all in Kooyong,
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  S3: despite Frydenberg not being around this time. We can get
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  S3: into it. But there has been a series of highly
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  S3: publicised incidents from a very embarrassing episode. Just as the
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  S3: election was being announced, where Monique Ryan's husband was filmed,
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  S3: essentially taking or stealing one of Amelia Hammer's corflutes from
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  S3: a nature strip.
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  S4: Are you are you a Monique Ryan supporter? Ripping down
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  S4: people's people's, uh, signs? Are you. Is that what you're doing?
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  S3: That sort of blew up.
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  S5: Oh, look, it was an unfortunate episode. It shouldn't have happened.
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  S5: You know, we all make mistakes in the heat of
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  S5: the moment. It was a one off.
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  S3: We've apologized in recent weeks. We've also seen another particularly
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  S3: publicized episode, uh, for, uh, for Amelia. It's definitely not
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  S3: a dull, dull electorate at all.
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  S1: I always love a good corflute war. We always get them.
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  S1: They're always great. And I also love a, you know,
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  S1: when the the posters get graffitied or defaced. I mean,
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  S1: I think it's a terrible thing for democracy, but it's probably,
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  S1: you know, it's all part of the culture. You broke
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  S1: the wildly popular story. You just alluded to that Amelia
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  S1: Hammer owns not one, but two investment properties, despite sort
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  S1: of talking about the fact that she's a renter and
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  S1: using that as a bit of a way to maybe
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  S1: gain some kudos as a, as a, you know, someone
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  S1: who's locked out of the housing market.
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  S3: Yes, yes. So after Amelia was pre-selected a bit over
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  S3: a year ago, she did a series of media profiles,
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  S3: quite sort of flattering sit down interviews with, um, a few, uh, mastheads,
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  S3: including this one where part of her pitch was, look,
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  S3: I'm not like, I'm not like the old Liberal Party. I'm.
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  S3: I'm young, I'm female, I'm a young professional, and I'm
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  S3: a renter. She also described herself a number of times
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  S3: as a renter.
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  S6: With the cost of living there, struggling to pay the mortgage. Um,
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  S6: they're struggling to pay their rent. I know my rent
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  S6: has gone up significantly. I'm a renter.
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  S3: Um, it didn't take too much digging. I had. I
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  S3: had a couple of tip offs to just have a
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  S3: look into her property portfolio in the UK. It wasn't
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  S3: too difficult to find the flat in, uh, the. Yes.
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  S3: The one bedroom flat in in London that she'd purchased
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  S3: in 2017.
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  S1: She'd sort of been chatting about it on Facebook, hadn't she,
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  S1: because she was trying to rent out the flat so
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  S1: she hadn't exactly covered her tracks. And it's a very
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  S1: nice flat too.
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  S3: It is a nice flat, actually.
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  S1: It's got a lovely bay window.
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  S3: Yeah, it's one of those classic London gardens. Yeah, a
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  S3: classic London garden flat. No. Look, I wish I could
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  S3: say that it required a lot more journalistic digging on
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  S3: my behalf, but it really, it wasn't difficult at all. Um,
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  S3: I think still to this day, there's a very public
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  S3: couple of very public posts from Amelia Hammer's personal Facebook
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  S3: page where she was renting out the flat. Um, with photos. Um,
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  S3: it was very pretty easy to marry that up with
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  S3: the address from the property records.
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  S1: Just to be clear, we're not. Of course, she hasn't
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  S1: lied or anything like that, and we're not suggesting it,
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  S1: but perhaps has left out some of the story.
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  S7: I think the reality is people, people acknowledge it can
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  S7: be both. You can be renting and you can also
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  S7: own a property. We also talk about this.
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  S1: When you talk about Amelia Hammer having been Liberal Party
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  S1: royalty or Liberal Party blueblood. What are you talking about?
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  S1: People outside of Melbourne particularly, who won't know her.
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  S3: Sure. So it's Amelia, a surname that carries the the
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  S3: weight in in Victoria. She's the grand niece of Dick Hamer,
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  S3: who was a Liberal premier of this state in the 70s.
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  S3: He was a he was a conservative but a socially
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  S3: progressive premier. Things that happened under his premiership were things
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  S3: like the decriminalisation of homosexuality in this state, were reforms
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  S3: by her great uncle. She refers to him as a
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  S3: as as uncle Dick. So, you know, in Melbourne, one
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  S3: of our big recital centres is named after the Hamer's,
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  S3: Hamer Hall.
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  S1: Hamer Hall? Yeah. So he's kind of in terms of
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  S1: the liberal brand, he is a moderate liberal. So that brand,
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  S1: if she's associated with it, would probably be something that
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  S1: would go up against her till quite well or would
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  S1: sell quite well for moderate liberals in that electorate who
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  S1: might have otherwise voted teal. Do you, do you get
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  S1: the sense of how tight the race is? How much
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  S1: of a challenge does Monique Ryan have to hold on
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  S1: to this seat?
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S3: Look. it is. It is tight. Monique's camp are. You know,
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  S3: they say that they're quietly. They're not taking it for granted.
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  S3: And they concede it's going to be a very you know,
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  S3: every vote's going to count, but they are confident they
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  S3: should be able to hold onto it. There has been
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  S3: a redistribution. Um, the seat of Higgins, which was next door,
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  S3: has been abolished, and parts of that seat have now
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  S3: been brought into Kooyong. There's a little bit of conflicting
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  S3: commentary around what that redistribution means for the Liberal Party.
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  S3: The sort of traditional thinking is it's taking in places
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  S3: that are extremely affluent, like Toorak, one of Melbourne's richest suburbs,
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  S3: and therefore it would be easier for for the liberals
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  S3: to get up. Um, but actually there are yeah, there's some,
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  S3: some competing sort of, um, commentary out there from, um,
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  S3: analysts that say that. Yeah, it was a, it was
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  S3: a labor held seat. Higgins. Um, all of the booths
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  S3: that are now being brought into, uh, being brought into
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  S3: Kooyong all voted on a two party preferred basis for
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  S3: for labor. So it's a little bit hard to kind
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  S3: of translate the labor vote, um, to teals, because there
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  S3: wasn't a teal candidate in Higgins at the 2022 election. Um,
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  S3: I think there's probably the feeling out there is there's,
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  S3: you know, if it's tight, there's a few hundred votes
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  S3: in it.
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  S1: Wow. It's going to be fascinating. Alex, you've been covering
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  S1: a somewhat similar or analogous seat in Sydney, the seat
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  S1: of Bradfield on Sydney's leafy north shore. It's always been
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  S1: a heartland Liberal electorate held by Paul Fletcher, who's has
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  S1: been a coalition frontbencher known, you know, quite well known.
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  S1: He's had a lot of ministerial portfolios but he's stepped down.
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  S1: Tell me about what's at play and who the two
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  S1: candidates matching up are.
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  S2: Yeah. So uh, Bradfield was one of the seats in
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  S2: 2022 that didn't sort of succumb to the teal wave.
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  S2: Neighbouring seats did. Um, obviously Warringah was already in teal
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  S2: Entail hands with Zali Steggall, but North Sydney to the south,
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  S2: closer to the Sydney CBD, went teal with Kylie, Tink
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  S2: and Mackellar on the northern beaches. But Bradfield bucked that trend.
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  S2: Paul Fletcher, who, as you said is a well known
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  S2: high profile moderate Liberal frontbencher, held that seat but only just.
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  S2: He really came very close to losing it to a
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  S2: teal candidate called Nicolette Bulla. She managed to really slice
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  S2: a huge chunk off his margin and it's in a
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  S2: very marginal seat now. In fact, it's even more marginal
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  S2: because of the boundary redistributions. But Nicolette Bulla was not
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  S2: going to give up easily. And even though she didn't
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  S2: end up in Canberra, along with some of the other teals,
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  S2: she decided to keep running and not only keep running,
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  S2: but she set herself up with an office in the
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  S2: heart of the electorate and sort of styled herself as
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  S2: the shadow MP. So she's been on the ground in
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  S2: Bradfield campaigning hard since 2022. Paul Fletcher. We assumed the
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  S2: Liberal Party assumed would be her opponent at this election.
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  S2: But just before Christmas, Paul Fletcher surprised his colleagues and
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  S2: decided that he wouldn't be contesting this election, which meant
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  S2: that they had to hurriedly find a new Liberal candidate
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  S2: to go up against somebody who obviously had a really
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  S2: high profile in the electorate because a she'd nearly beaten
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  S2: Paul Fletcher in 2022, but then B she'd also been campaigning.
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  S1: Been hanging around for.
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  S2: The best part of three years. Yeah.
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  S1: Before Paul Fletcher resigned, which was a surprise to the public,
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  S1: I guess, and a surprise to many of his colleagues.
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  S1: He made quite a controversial speech in November to the
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  S1: Sydney Institute, didn't he?
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  S2: Yeah. That's right. The right leaning Sydney Institute often hosts,
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  S2: you know, Liberal MPs and usually they don't say anything
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  S2: that's hugely controversial. But Paul Fletcher got up and said
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  S2: that the teals were nothing but a green con job,
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  S2: and that basically they tricked voters into voting for them.
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  S2: You know, they.
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  S1: Duped liberal voters.
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  S2: He said that voters thought they were voting for a
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  S2: nice liberal just dressed up as a teal. And those
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  S2: comments were actually really quite damaging, I think, for Paul Fletcher,
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  S2: because what people within the Liberal Party, obviously more broadly
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  S2: in the teal movement, but in the Liberal Party thought
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  S2: it was very, um, ill thought out when his biggest challenger,
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  S2: you know, the person he really had to beat was
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  S2: going to be a teal. And if he was going to,
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  S2: I guess, come out and almost ridicule the voters that
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  S2: supported the teal movement, it was unlikely that he was
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  S2: going to win them over, and he needed to obviously,
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  S2: if he was going to retain the seat. Not long
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  S2: after that was when he pulled up stumps. I am
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  S2: told that he had been shown some polling which suggested
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  S2: he was under real threat, and so he decided to
• 10:40
  S2: end his long political career.
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  S1: There you go. Um, be careful what you say at
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  S1: the Sydney Institute is the moral to that story, but
• 10:47
  S1: it has gotten a little bit complicated. We've got Giselle,
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  S1: who is the Liberal candidate who seems like a very,
• 10:52
  S1: you know, acceptable candidate, and Nicolette Buller, who, as you say,
• 10:57
  S1: has been doing a lot of groundwork in the electorate
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  S1: for many years, kind of stuffed up a bit a
• 11:02
  S1: few weeks ago, didn't she, with some widely reported incident?
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  S2: Yeah, it was really embarrassing for Nicolette Bulla. She had
• 11:09
  S2: been having her hair washed at a local suburban hair
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  S2: salon and.
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  S1: In Gordon, I believe. Lovely.
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  S2: Yes. That's right. And leafy Gordon and one of the
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  S2: clients in the hair salon overheard her say to a
• 11:23
  S2: 19 year old young girl as she washed her hair. Gee,
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  S2: that was so good. And I didn't even have to
• 11:29
  S2: have sex with you. Now, of course, that is not
• 11:31
  S2: an appropriate thing to say. And that client passed on
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  S2: those comments to a very high profile broadcaster here in Sydney,
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  S2: Ben Fordham, and that's where the story emerged.
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  S8: The listener says if that was a man saying that
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  S8: there would and should be an investigation, so why should
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  S8: a woman get away with this? My wife is a
• 11:52
  S8: customer at the hairdressers, so.
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  S2: It was hugely embarrassing for Nicolette Buhler. And she had
• 11:57
  S2: to obviously and rightly come out straight away and apologise
• 12:00
  S2: and say that anyone should feel safe in their workplace.
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  S2: And her comments weren't appropriate. But what it did mean
• 12:06
  S2: is that she went to ground for a few days.
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  S2: She was off social media. She wasn't campaigning. Clearly her
• 12:11
  S2: team didn't want her to have to kind of face
• 12:13
  S2: tough questions, and they were obviously very worried about the
• 12:16
  S2: impact those comments would have on her campaign. She seems
• 12:20
  S2: to have moved on from those now, but it was
• 12:23
  S2: a really big misstep for somebody who really should have
• 12:26
  S2: known better.
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  S1: Also, be careful what you say in The Hairdresser at
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  S1: Gordon is the moral to that story. Now, I do
• 12:32
  S1: want to ask a question to you both about the
• 12:35
  S1: scare campaigns or the attack campaigns we see see, particularly
• 12:38
  S1: on teal candidates. They run a lot, I think, in
• 12:41
  S1: the News Corp media in particular, and it's all along
• 12:43
  S1: the lines of what Paul Fletcher alleged, that, you know,
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  S1: the teals are a giant green con job. They duping
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  S1: liberal voters. They're a threat to the stability of the
• 12:51
  S1: two party system. They hold themselves out to be holier
• 12:54
  S1: than thou and above politics, but actually, they're just as
• 12:57
  S1: grubby as the next politician. And they really try to
• 13:00
  S1: link the teals to the greens and to the radical fringe.
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  S1: And I know this started with Zali Steggall campaign against
• 13:05
  S1: Tony Abbott. The Liberal Party was really trying to link
• 13:08
  S1: her to get up, you know, the activist organization. She
• 13:11
  S1: always said there were no links between them. Do you
• 13:13
  S1: think that that is an effective strategy and and have
• 13:16
  S1: you seen it bear fruit at all? Alex, I'll go
• 13:19
  S1: to you first.
• 13:20
  S9: Well, I think it's really.
• 13:20
  S2: Interesting that the two major parties and admittedly it's mainly
• 13:24
  S2: the liberals against the teals because that's their biggest threat,
• 13:27
  S2: keep really strongly saying this line that they're a threat
• 13:31
  S2: to democracy, a threat to the major parties. The reality
• 13:34
  S2: is people are moving away from the major parties and
• 13:37
  S2: looking for something else. So it's not so much that
• 13:40
  S2: they're a threat to the major parties. Well, I suppose
• 13:42
  S2: indeed they are. But that's through the the major parties
• 13:45
  S2: own doing. I think we're now at the 2022 election,
• 13:49
  S2: only 37% of people voted for a major party.
• 13:52
  S1: I mean, that was that was historic.
• 13:54
  S2: So there is a huge group of people. Yeah, a
• 13:57
  S2: huge group of people looking for somewhere else to vote.
• 13:59
  S2: I think another really interesting thing the liberals are keep
• 14:03
  S2: saying to me, oh, the teals, they just buy elections.
• 14:06
  S2: Now we know the teals have really strong fundraising pool,
• 14:09
  S2: but a lot of that fundraising isn't just like from
• 14:12
  S2: the likes of millionaire Simon Holmes, a court who was
• 14:15
  S2: obviously behind climate 200. They do give a lot of
• 14:19
  S2: money to the teal. There's no doubt about that. But
• 14:21
  S2: the teals also have this incredible grassroots ability to campaign
• 14:26
  S2: lots and lots of small donations. Nicolette Buller told me
• 14:30
  S2: she has about 900 different donors donating small amounts, but
• 14:33
  S2: they add up, you know, and the reality is the
• 14:35
  S2: liberals just can't match it. People are not donating to
• 14:39
  S2: the liberals like they once did. And so it's almost
• 14:42
  S2: this slight bitterness that they acknowledge that people will be
• 14:45
  S2: willing to give to the teals campaign, but not the liberals.
• 14:48
  S2: And so to counter that, the liberals say, oh, it's it's,
• 14:51
  S2: you know, grossly undemocratic. The teals are buying elections. I'm
• 14:54
  S2: not sure you can say they're buying elections when you
• 14:57
  S2: know mum and dad donors are just giving some money
• 15:00
  S2: towards their campaign.
• 15:01
  S1: And they're just doing, I suppose, what the major parties
• 15:03
  S1: would do if if they could. Rachel, what about you?
• 15:06
  S1: I mean, in, in Kooyong. Do you see Monique Ryan
• 15:09
  S1: being really tied to this idea that, in fact, she's
• 15:12
  S1: just a sort of, you know, a green or a
• 15:15
  S1: labor stooge in disguise in liberal clothing or moderate liberal clothing.
• 15:20
  S1: You know, you see a lot of statistics that are
• 15:22
  S1: or questionable data that is sort of repeated in some
• 15:26
  S1: parts of the media about the number of times the
• 15:29
  S1: teal candidates will vote, will have voted with labor or
• 15:32
  S1: voted with the Greens for certain votes. Do you think
• 15:35
  S1: that's cutting through in Kooyong?
• 15:36
  S3: Look, it's certainly the strongest attack line that the liberals
• 15:41
  S3: are running against Monique Ryan in Kooyong. But I think
• 15:45
  S3: your point about whether this is this has cut through
• 15:49
  S3: and whether this this attack has the venom that I
• 15:52
  S3: think the Liberal Party wants it to have, I'm really
• 15:55
  S3: not sure about that. I mean, Kooyong, Monique Ryan ran
• 16:00
  S3: in 2022. Uh, the the previous election. Josh Frydenberg's biggest
• 16:06
  S3: challenger at that point, um, was human rights lawyer Julian Burnside,
• 16:10
  S3: who finished second in Kooyong for the Greens. I think
• 16:14
  S3: that types of voters who are voting for the teals,
• 16:17
  S3: I don't think that the idea that Monique's values may
• 16:21
  S3: somewhat align with the greens or mostly align with the greens,
• 16:24
  S3: but not on everything is not it's not a barb. Um,
• 16:28
  S3: there obviously it's very clear what the teal brand is,
• 16:31
  S3: which is environmentally socially progressive and economically conservative. And so
• 16:37
  S3: I think voters who are voting for the teals would say, yeah,
• 16:40
  S3: she stands for the best parts of the greens that
• 16:42
  S3: I liked and doesn't have the the rabble rousing part
• 16:45
  S3: that I don't like. And I don't think it's necessarily, um,
• 16:49
  S3: the effective. I think people who were skeptical of the
• 16:52
  S3: teals and are hard rusted on liberal voters will always
• 16:55
  S3: vote with the liberals. Um, and they'll like they it.
• 16:59
  S3: G's up the base for the liberals this kind of attack.
• 17:02
  S3: But I don't necessarily think that it is going to
• 17:04
  S3: sway people back from voting for independence.
• 17:06
  S1: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a misconception that
• 17:09
  S1: that tills entire base is, um, former liberal voters. In fact,
• 17:12
  S1: the teals base is, um, former or would be Labor
• 17:16
  S1: and Greens voters who don't have that candidate in their electorate.
• 17:19
  S1: And then they pick up some coalition, some disaffected coalition
• 17:22
  S1: votes to kind of be a part of their coalition.
• 17:25
  S3: I think that's right.
• 17:26
  S1: I just want to ask you quickly, both at the end,
• 17:28
  S1: I mean, I guess the first teals election, you know,
• 17:31
  S1: when Zali Steggall knocked off Tony Abbott in 2019 was
• 17:34
  S1: a real upset last election, we saw that the teals
• 17:38
  S1: really consolidated their power and picked up a lot more
• 17:41
  S1: seats this election. You know, if they do well, it
• 17:44
  S1: will really establish them as a political force that's not
• 17:47
  S1: going anywhere in Australian politics. I just wonder, I want
• 17:51
  S1: to go to you both. I wonder how much you
• 17:52
  S1: think there was a protest element in previous elections, particularly
• 17:55
  S1: last election when Scott Morrison himself was so unpopular and
• 17:59
  S1: the coalition's record on climate was so bad. The teals
• 18:04
  S1: don't have either of those sort of electoral assets this time. Alex,
• 18:07
  S1: do you think that that's going to hurt them or
• 18:08
  S1: will they be able to build on their brand?
• 18:10
  S2: I actually think they'll be able to build on their brand. Initially,
• 18:13
  S2: I did think that perhaps it was just a bit
• 18:15
  S2: of a one hit wonder. You know, there was so
• 18:17
  S2: much anger against Scott Morrison. The former Liberal government had
• 18:20
  S2: been very weak, as you said, around climate policies. But
• 18:24
  S2: I think just looking at the data, which shows so
• 18:26
  S2: many more voters don't want to vote for one of
• 18:29
  S2: the major parties that each time, as long as the
• 18:31
  S2: teals or the community independents, whatever you want to call them,
• 18:35
  S2: are adapting to what voters want, I think they will
• 18:37
  S2: just keep building on their brand. Sure, there's no anti
• 18:40
  S2: Scott Morrison kind of vibe this time. You know, the
• 18:43
  S2: coalition is somewhat better around climate policy. But there are
• 18:48
  S2: new issues aren't there. You know, and I think that
• 18:51
  S2: they're probably tapping into this vast electorate who is just
• 18:54
  S2: like Labor and Liberal and the, you know, the coalition
• 18:58
  S2: have not been serving the country well and we want
• 19:00
  S2: to try something different. So I think I now think
• 19:03
  S2: they're not just a one hit wonder. I think my
• 19:05
  S2: view in New South Wales anyway, is the existing teals
• 19:08
  S2: will hold their seats and Bradfield is so tight like
• 19:11
  S2: it's 5050. Both sides say that it could go either way,
• 19:15
  S2: you know. So I certainly don't think this is the
• 19:18
  S2: end of the teals by any stretch. I think it's
• 19:20
  S2: probably them just building on that, on that brand.
• 19:23
  S1: Yeah. Rach, just quickly, what do you think on that?
• 19:25
  S3: I tend to agree, Alex. Um, in terms of look,
• 19:28
  S3: we don't have the Scott Morrison factor, but for the
• 19:32
  S3: teals to to go backwards in Victoria is is what
• 19:35
  S3: what you're counting on in that scenario is people who
• 19:38
  S3: voted for for teals teal candidates to now vote for Dutton.
• 19:42
  S3: Um who in terms of climate credentials, I just don't
• 19:47
  S3: see those voters opting for what Dutton has on offer,
• 19:52
  S3: which is obviously his nuclear policy. The concern about climate hasn't,
• 19:58
  S3: hasn't gone away for, for for these types of voters, for.
• 20:01
  S1: Voters for whom it's very, very important. Yeah.
• 20:04
  S3: Indeed.
• 20:04
  S1: Yeah. Thanks so much, both of you. That was absolutely fascinating.
• 20:08
  S1: Both of those seats, Kooyong and Bradfield are going to
• 20:10
  S1: be so interesting to watch on election night, I can't wait.
• 20:13
  S1: Thanks again and enjoy the rest of the campaign, ladies.
• 20:16
  S9: Thanks, Jack.
• 20:17
  S3: Thank you.
• 20:20
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Katzel. Our executive producer
• 20:24
  S1: is Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
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  S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.