Latest / DevQuestions with Tim Corey / 305. Red Flags in a Job Opportunity

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305. Red Flags in a Job Opportunity · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Getting a job can be difficult, but getting the wrong job can be worse.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Finding out days or weeks into a new job that it isn't going to work out can be extremely difficult.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: You may have turned down other opportunities, and at the very least, you probably stopped looking for a better opportunity once you took this job.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Finding out that you can't stay in a current job can set you back weeks or months in your job search and can leave some frustrating experiences laying out there on your resume that you have to explain to the next employer or next few employers.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you avoid this situation?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do you spot the red flags and avoid certain jobs?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're going to discuss in today's episode of Dev Questions.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Dev Questions Podcast with Tim Corey.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Software development is more than just writing code.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the rest of it.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Specifically, let's talk about spotting red flags in a potential job.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And to do that, we're going to start by acknowledging some things right up front.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, not everyone has a choice in what job they take.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you only have one good offer.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe that offer, the only one you have that you can compare against, isn't going to pay you enough to live.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not really a choice anymore, right?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So not everyone is going to have a choice in what job to take.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you just need to take the job that pays you something.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure we know right up front, that is sometimes the case.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: In that case, the green flag is they'll pay you enough money.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, number two, you will probably not ever find the perfect job.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have worked for a very long time for a number of employers, both as a contractor, as a consultant, as well as full-time.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you, there are very few employers where I'm like, yeah, that was a perfect job.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there's one where I'm like, you know what?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: That was about as perfect as it could be.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And still, there are flaws with it.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's things that I didn't particularly like or wish I could have changed.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a great job.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not going to find the perfect job.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Number three, employers can change after you get hired.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, no matter how well you vet the employer, no how matter how much you spend time making sure that the right one, they have the least amount of red flags, they had the most amount of green flags, you get into that job and then things change.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's they find out later that they don't have any money, or you know, they they lose a big contract, or you know, a new boss comes in that changes things.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Things change after you get hired.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can't really predict that.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Number four, nice to have items are only consideration once your basic needs are met.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you may have two options, but only one of them is gonna fit your basic needs, kind of like what we mentioned in point one, which means that you may see some red flags and you may say, those are red flags, but it meets my basic needs.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say, well, I'm gonna hold out for a better job.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've heard people say I'm gonna hold out for management.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're not management material, right?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe your employers aren't looking for to hire you for more money, or that they're not gonna give you those perks that you're looking for until later on down the road.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you have to take your basic needs in consideration first.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, all the time, you have to take your basic needs in consideration first before you look at your nice to have.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, you need to make the best choice with the most upsides and the least downsides.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: That may seem obvious, but too often we look at jobs, we look at them in kind of a vacuum where you say, ah, there's a red flag there.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, every job's gonna have them.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is, is that red flag worse than your other options?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it worse than continuing to look for another three months?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is it worse than this other job that has different red flags?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to make the best choice with the most upsides and the least downsides.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes the choice to not take that job.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't take that job, what happens?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because that has upsides and downsides as well.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: You need to evaluate all of that.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so those are the kind of the five levels in the playing field, get a basic understanding of what I'm saying first.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now that we have that understanding, let's talk about the red flags.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And not all of these will be equal.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm mentioning some red flags here that you probably shouldn't worry about.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna talk about that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So with each flag, I'll give you an evaluation of how important it is or is not, at least in my mind.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you can change that priority.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: You may say this is a high priority, where I'd be like, I just don't care.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it is up to you, but I'm gonna talk about what I feel.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, number one, the red flag is the high turnover rate.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: If a company of 15 developers needs to hire five new developers and they're not talking about growth, they're just replacing people.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, wait a minute, why did a third of your workforce leave all at once?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you looking to replace a third of your developers?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And ask those questions.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Find out why did they all leave?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe they were the wrong employees.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they had a bad element and they're like, you know what?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna let them all go.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna let them all walk.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe those five employees were like, hey, we love working together so much, we're gonna start our own business and go off.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they five of them went off together and did something positive, but that left a gap in the current company.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's different reasons why a company might lose a significant portion of developers, but you should find out why.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: This can be a really big red flag, even if it's just one person leaving.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why they leave?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about that.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Figure out why.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they were disgruntled, maybe they just didn't like how things were going down.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be okay or it could be a danger sign.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's something for you to think about.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: But this to me is a pretty high priority red flag.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a high turnover, that means probably something isn't right.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And probably you're gonna be one of the ones in the turnover in the future, unless you can figure out how to avoid that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So a high turnover rate is a danger sign, and it's a high danger sign.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, also in this high category, is an intense workplace.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I had an interview once where I was talking to them, and the job was great, the product they were working on is great.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was excited to work on it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was really in my area of both it's what I could do, but also it's an exciting thing I wanted to work on, I wanted to build.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And things were looking great.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then we talked about how many hours of work, you know, how many hours a week do you work?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And their response wasn't a number.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Their response was, we work pretty hard around here.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me was a massive red flag.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because when they don't even say, but they acknowledge they work pretty hard, pretty is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: There means, you know, just drop that off the sentence.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: We work hard.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean we work hard during our 40 hours a week, because I'm all I'm on board with that.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: When you're at work, you work hard.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: But no, what they meant was we work 60 to 65 on a normal week.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, if there's a big release coming, well, we put in a lot of hours just to make sure we get it out.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I wanted to do, and I didn't want to be a part of that.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was a big red flag for me.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Another red flag in this in this kind of category of intense workplace is when they say we are like family.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about your family, but I have found that most families aren't really that functional.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's some problems in there.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's at least one or two people that are a little weird.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um employers talk about being like family, they are actually saying we're dysfunctional.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: We have problems.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And what they really want to talk about is how they abuse their family.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when you when you have a person, a family, like I am a software developer, which means I know technology, right?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so for years and years and years, it's been a case where if you have a technology problem, you talk to me.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's my boy's problem now, which is great.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's okay.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I feel totally fine with that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And employers look at that kind of relationship where, you know, I'm not charging my family to fix their router or fix their printer.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's that'd be absurd.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: But employers look at that and that's what they're seeing.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're seeing, hey, you wouldn't charge your family to do work, right?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like you wouldn't charge your family to do a little extra.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what they're talking about when they say we're like family.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, employers often go into this with a being well-meaning.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've known a lot of employers that that have this well-meaning uh idea around we want to be like family.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the unfortunate part is they often treat you in the negative ways like family, where they are asking you to do more without giving you any compensation, where they're looking to kind of pile more on you without expecting you to push back, because you know what?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're all pulling together here.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a big red flag.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: So also look, if you have the opportunity, it's always a great thing to talk to current employees or previous employees, be careful there because people who have left often have one of two views, either a rosy picture of what it was like, or they have a super negative picture of what it was like.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So be careful there.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Look for the to talk to people who are currently in the role.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the questions you can ask is how often do you guys take vacation?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys use your vacation days?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: How many do you have?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And do you use them all?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you talk to a person, they're like, oh, I haven't taken a vacation three years, that's a problem.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big problem.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, maybe that's just their personality.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if none of the employees take vacations, that's a big problem.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: You make sure that the company isn't expecting you to work and not take your vacation days.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna be the odd person out because you actually want to take advantage of your benefits and take your personal days, your vacation days, and your team's gonna look at you like you're a bad person for doing that, that's a big red flag.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right, number three, blame.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is a big one.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a high, a big red flag.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this is when they talk about their employees or their previous employees and they assign blame, run, just run, uh, because at some point you will be that employee.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have spent a lot of time with database administrators because I have been one a number of times in my career, and it's just I have interacted well in that community.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that is very common whenever you talk to database administrators, and I talk to usually like speakers at conferences and people who have been around the block a lot, as well as senior DBAs and others in in roles as when I came in as a consultant.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: When you talk to these people and you ask them the question, hey, have you ever messed up as a DBA?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever done anything with data that you know caused a problem?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Every one of them will have a story about data they lost, about destroying lots of data, about causing problems with the backups or restoring a database incorrectly, or something massive and major.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll kind of laugh about it because this happens.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that happens to almost every DBA.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you're almost not a DBA until you've done something like that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the more you work on it, the more you can prevent against it.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to cause these major issues, but it's pretty common.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if their employer had said, oh, wait, you cause a major problem, you're fired.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then there wouldn't be those DBAs, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually something that other database administrators will work on is hey, when that junior developer causes a problem, then they don't say, you're fired, they say, you need to learn from this.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what, we've been there too.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that is how you kind of grow up is learning how to avoid these problems, not by saying the first time you have a problem, you fail to get out.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's by saying, okay, learn from this and don't do it again.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Learn and grow.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as employers, if you're just saying, you know what, this was that person's problem, what you're really doing is you're shifting all the blame onto one person.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And probably that's not, in fact, it's almost certainly not all theirs to take on.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, yes, employees cause mistakes.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But for example, if a junior developer, junior database administrator drops all the data in production for all the um the customers.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they did something wrong and they should work on not doing that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not purely their fault.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because how did they have access to do that in the first place?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: They shouldn't have.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: They shouldn't have had access to go in and make that massive a mistake before they were ready, which means it's a management problem.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a senior leadership problem in that department.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just one person's fault.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so if the senior DBA just assigned blame to that junior DBA and fired them, well, what they're doing is they are throwing one person under the bus.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point, we all are going to get thrown under the bus.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a problem.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when management talks about the previous person in the role you're hiring for, listen to how they talk about them.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't care if they fire them.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: If they talk about them and they blame that employee for their problems, well, what they're doing is they are looking at that person as an easy scapegoat.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they're going to look for another one at some point because there's getting more problems.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say this is a pretty high, a pretty big red flag that you should look at look at how they talk about employees.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: If they say, you know what, it didn't work out, you know what, they they weren't um weren't up to to speed or what they couldn't do a job, that's that's one thing.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like honesty and saying, yes, there were faults is totally fine.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: But assigning full blame and kind of talking about them in a complaining way, that's another thing entirely.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So be careful, listen for that blame versus explanation and about and see who takes responsibility.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because if the manager takes responsibility for some of it, even that's a green flag.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a, hey, you know what?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: That manager is not just letting somebody else take the blame.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're taking part of it, maybe rightfully, maybe even not, but they are caring for their employees even through a tough time.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, number three, blame, look out for that.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Number four, this is actually a small red flag for me.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, in some ways, I see this as an opportunity.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not a red flag, but definitely people will talk about it as a red flag.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a chaotic process.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that might mean no continuous integration or continuous deployment.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: That might mean no testing, that might mean deploying right to production, that might mean not having good development practices, it might mean not having a standard for how you write code.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: It might mean you don't have a central place to have issues and features.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: This chaotic process is not uncommon in the industry.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And personally, I find it to be a great opportunity.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a chaotic process slows things down.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it causes more problems.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it can endanger the product, it can endanger the team.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: However, it's an opportunity to bring your skills to bear and have an obvious, clear benefit relegate.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can come in and say, hey, you know what?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: That deployment process takes forever.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what if I helped you make that better?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about that in the in the hiring process.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I've done this over and over.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what we could do.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And even this step right here, even continuous integration, not continuous deployment, continuous integration might be a big help.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or I've learned how to write unit tests.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: That can be a big help in making sure that the product works the way it's supposed to all the time.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so while I'm learning your product, would it be okay if I wrote some tests to just prove that I know what it does and at the same time give you something that can make development faster because you can be more confident in the results?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: So all these things can be a huge win.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have I have lost count of a number of companies where I've gone in and improved their processes.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not their code, although I worked on that too, but their processes and made them a much more productive team.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked like a rock star, even though really what I was doing was just, in my mind, the simple stuff, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: The stuff that I've learned to do over and over and over again.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say, hey, you know what?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Let's bring us into your situation.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because too often teams are too much of a hurt in a hurry where they're so focused on get the next thing done, they don't have time to pick their head up and say, how can we do this better, more efficiently?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can come in and make even one thing more efficient, you make the entire team better and faster.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be a huge win.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, chaotic processes can be a red flag, but it can mean that the company doesn't care.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: But more likely, what it means is they've just been overwhelmed, and you might have a huge opportunity to come in here and make an impact right away.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, number five.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is another low priority for me because it's so common, and that is outdated technology.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Too often people think that if a company's using.NET framework, that it's a big red flag.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it might be for you.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd be careful on throwing that red flag up because what that means is it's an established product that's been around for a long time.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you may not want to work on that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's totally valid.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that company is stuck in their ways and they're like, we don't want to investigate moving forward.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that might be a bigger red flag.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're saying we can't, that's a different thing entirely because maybe they can just use some help in moving from.NET framework to.NET 10 or whatever.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or maybe it's the fact that they need some help refactoring or writing new code that will integrate with the old code.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I did a lot too, is I would write new code that would integrate with the old code so that we could slowly migrate over time rather than trying to redo the entire thing all at once.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: But modernization is a huge benefit to a company.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: It makes their code faster, safer, it makes it easier to find new developers, and so many other things.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it takes a lot of work.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And for big systems, that might be impossible or at least very, very difficult.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So don't, in my opinion, I wouldn't get too scared by old technology.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you do have to look at your career and say, do I want to be in this job where I can't be assured that we're going to move to anything newer than.NET Framework?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do I want to do this for the next five years where my resume looks like I don't have any modern skills because I don't in this role?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's something to consider.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have any opportunity at all to help them move forward or to work on some things that are newer while working the old things, that might be okay.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So be careful on assigning too big of a red flag to this.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be that big a deal.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of companies have old code because of the fact they've been around for more than a year.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a good thing.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: You want a company that's been around for more than a year or two years.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you might have to work on older code.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: It might be the.NET framework, it might be.NET 8, but it might be something that's a little older than you were expecting.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Be careful on throwing that red flag and thinking it's too big a red flag.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Number six, poor interview process.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: This to me is the smallest of red flags.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is barely a red flag.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that a poor interview process is super frustrating.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they focus.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Focus on trivia and knowing if you know if you know the right name for a certain design pattern that's an obscure pattern, or knowing if you know how to do a certain thing in, you know, maybe how to do linked lists and in.NET or something stupid, really.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, that's frustrating.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um it maybe they don't have any technical interview process at all.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a different red flag.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: That may be a little concerning as well, because if they're letting people in who aren't good developers, that might mean the team is a little weak on development in general.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also an opportunity because if they're weak and you're not, well, you might be able to rise to the top more easily.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: But a poor interview process, I call it the tiniest of red flags, if it's a red flag at all, because of the fact that no one knows how to interview developers well.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: They just don't.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a good way.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have this is a problem that I have worked on for a long time, and I'm I'm making some progress on it, but it's still very, very difficult.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the interview process as a one-on-one process, then it's a whole lot easier to make that process better.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at it as an employer is looking for an employee but getting 10,000 applications, it makes it an entirely different process.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: How do you weed down to just a few dozen that you can interview?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have time to interview even more than that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you get down to that level?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you do, how do you evaluate one developer from another?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Saying things like years of experience really doesn't do a developer justice.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've had 20 years experience, but it's been basically the same thing for 20 years.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're totally out of date and you don't have a lot of deep skills.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you've got five years experience, but you've got really deep skills.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's a doesn't show up well in a comparison, and yet really what the company wants is probably a five-year person who has deep skills.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this poor interview process, I wouldn't say it's anybody's fault.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: People are really trying, they're trying some dumb stuff for sure, and no company does a good job.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I struggle with this.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, finding the right person is very, very difficult, and it takes a lot of my time.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm the one that does it because I know developers and I know how to talk to developers, and I know what to look for in a good developer and what to avoid.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still very, very, very difficult and it takes up a lot of time.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I can still make the wrong call because this is a very difficult process to get right.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, poor interview process, I would not put that as a red flag because when you find the greatest interview process, I would love for you to let me know.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know who is doing a great interview process.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk to them.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm serious.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Email me.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Send help at imtimcorey.com, send me an email and say, hey, I found a company that's doing a great job interviewing software developers.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to talk to them because this process is very difficult.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the only ways to make it easier is to either have less candidates, which is hard to do, but having less candidates, or you've got something figured out that is beyond what I have figured out so far, right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is not something that Microsoft does well.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Microsoft's process is not great.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you can't look at the big companies and say, well, they do a great job.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: They don't.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um in fact, every team does it a little differently.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And some teams do a great job and some teams don't.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of good people get passed over for those interview processes because they're trying to weed out a lot of people.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when you weed out things, you get some good things weed out with the bad things.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: So poor interview process, I wouldn't focus on that because I don't think that for the most part is a reflection on the department, a reflection on the software development in the company.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Number seven, no plan for employee growth.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is a medium red flag for me.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the highest of red flags, it's not the lowest.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: It all depends on why that is and what it means for me as a developer if I'm looking to work in this company.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I mean by no plan for employee growth, I'm saying no way to go the next level up in the organization, whether that's you get hired as a junior developer and can you go to a mid-level developer and senior developer?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is there a is there a name for those things, or is it just you're a developer and you might get a 3% pay raise for cost of living every year, maybe, but that's it.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no way to go to level two or level three.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's a problem.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then also, if you have no training, if you have no growth, if you have no way to, you know, if your employer's not providing any way for you to get better at your job, that's also a bit of a red flag.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's the reality: a lot of companies don't do this well.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: They just don't.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Small companies don't have a way to level up because they don't have enough positions.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's kind of difficult to say, well, you're you're leveled up now because if you're only one developer in the company, you're the developer.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, maybe a company would say, yes, but we're gonna call you a developer two now, or developer three, or a mid-level developer, whatever they want to call it, and give you more money, that'd be great.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if they have that process, that's amazing.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they just don't.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as far as training goes, no company wants to pay you, very few companies want to pay you to train while you're on the clock because they want to get the most value out of you.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And especially in today's uh society where AI is everything and we'll just let the AI do it, the there's a lot of thought around you don't need to train, you just need to have an AI do things.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's actually counterintuitively not a good thing.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um yes, that is something to be careful of, but it is a very common thing.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to evaluate, yes, it's a red flag, but you have to evaluate is it a deal breaker?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a common thing.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So am I gonna find a job that does do this, um, or am I gonna find three different jobs and none of them do this, and I have to choose between those three jobs.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you look at this and say, oh, that's a red flag for me, I don't want to do that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you have to think through like if they don't have training, if they're not working to level you up, maybe you have to change jobs in three years or five years.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be okay.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the best way, most of the time, the best way to get a pay raise is to change jobs.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because in that, for whatever reason, companies don't value people who are currently employed.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: They'll give you maybe that 3% raise, or maybe they'll give you a little bit of a raise, but they're like, we're gonna treat you the same way because you're here.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you leave, they hire the next person at a higher rate because they're like, well, we gotta encourage that person to come, instead of thinking, hey, we can just encourage a person that's already here.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so they kind of mess that one up a little bit.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a pretty common thing.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so you may have to say, well, it's a red flag, and so I'm gonna expect to be here three to five years to build up my experience, build up my skills, but eventually I'm gonna go somewhere else and get a higher pay rate that way.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: That may be one thing to think through is the way to offset that red flag.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you say, you know what, I'm gonna spend some time outside of work studying.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's for a lot of people, that's one of those things they just don't want to do.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's your career.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta think through, do I wanna get more paid more?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's the only way to do it, maybe that's something you're gonna have to do.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, that can be a red flag.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: But again, what's your alternative?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you have an alternative that would allow you to do training, great.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't, is this our unemployment?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then you're gonna have to figure out what it's worth.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Number eight, pay that relies on bonuses.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Be very careful here.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh talking about pay in general at an employer is usually a difficult thing.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Often employers don't want to talk about pay until the very end, which is frustrating.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the first conversations I would have with all of my potential employees is here's what I pay.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why is because if you get through the whole process and the pay isn't something you can afford to live on, why are we even talking?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what was the point of all that?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: We spent so much time.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the employer's thought process is that you will take it even though you don't like it, which just means you're gonna be unhappy even if you do take it, which is frustrating.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: So be careful when you talk about pay.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about pay as early as possible.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: When you talk about pay, make sure that the pay you're talking about is actual salary, not salary plus bonuses.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do some round numbers here.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: If an employer says, I'm gonna pay you$100,000 a year, and you go, great, I needed at least$80,000, so this is great.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've got$20,000 extra, you know, that I can use for paying off bills or whatever.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then you find out that it's actually$75,000 a year, but$25,000 in bonuses.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's great until the company goes, it's been a hard year.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I know we paid our executives a lot and we did a whole bunch of stock buybacks, but we don't still have any money for bonuses this year.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do, you know, no bonuses.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, all of a sudden, you need$80,000, you're getting$75.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So bonuses, despite what people say, they're not guaranteed.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: They just aren't.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's something that is nice to have.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that you should really treat as a bonus, as on top of.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if you needed$80,000 and they said, we're gonna pay you$85,000 and also have bonuses up to$110,000 or$100,000, that's great because you're getting paid what you need to.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then that bonus, if it doesn't happen, you still have enough money.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if it does happen, you got extra.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Treat it that way.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that your salary needs don't depend on those bonuses.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: If it's additional and you're like, hey, you know, one job I can make$100,000 with just straight salary, and one job I can make up to 120 with bonuses, but it's 90 normally, you might go the job that makes up to 120 because you have more of a chance to make more money more easily than with your other job.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you might take that risk, but make sure that you are counting on the fact that you're only counting on the guaranteed money in your pay, not the kind of optional money of bonuses or stock or anything else that might or might not happen.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Number nine is unenthusiastic employees.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said earlier, talk to the existing employees if you can.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that can be helpful if you have a network where you've talked to people and you know people and you know developers in your area and you know, hey, you work at that company or you used to work at that company.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, can you tell me more about it?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And especially, like I said, prioritize people who currently work there and talk to them.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: If they're unenthusiastic about their jobs, that could be a pretty big red flag.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: If they are negative about their job, whoo, that's a real big red flag.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes people work at a job they're miserable at because they have no other option.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the reality.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that might be you.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you talk to people who are miserable at their job, and you look at that, you should look at that as a red flag, a big one, because you have the option.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you don't have an option, it's either this job or unemployment still.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: That might mean that you go into it anyway.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you might also have your eyes open to, hey, I should look out for this or for that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe I should be careful about this.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's valid.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have an option, well, why would you go into a job where people are miserable?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: You probably want to avoid that if if you're not careful.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: So be careful, talk to the employees, see what they like or what they don't like, see um how they feel about the job.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: This was, I interviewed for a job as an IT director uh once where I really wanted a new job.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be in the job I was in.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this job looked like a great job.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: On paper, it was great.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: It paid great, a lot of things kind of lined up.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was in an area that I was I loved.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I actually landed and drove next to the beach almost the entire way there.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love the beach.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh man, this is this is great.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's warm, it's sunshine, it's a great area.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I talked to the employer, and there were some red flags that were popping up, but it wasn't like the end of the world red flags.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got the opportunity to talk to who would be my direct reports.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Hey, can I just talk to them, you know, just you know, directly?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the employer said sure.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sat and talked to them for about half an hour, um, then went to lunch with them and found out that they were miserable.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: They were miserable in their jobs.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why would I want to come to this employer and first of all, have miserable employees?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's always tough.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then the reasons why they're miserable would be things that would make me miserable too.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so before I even got on the plane to go home, I was like, nope, that's not gonna happen.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like this was the end phase of this process.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was about ready to sign a dial line, like, yes, let's take this job.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And no, it wasn't gonna happen.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I turned down the job because of the fact that I was able to talk to those employees and find out kind of the real behind the scenes.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now we never, they never bashed their employees or their employer.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: They never said our employer is terrible.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I could tell by how they talked about things that they just were unhappy.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can talk to the employees, see what the vibe is like.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, those are nine red flags.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are tiny little red flags, or not even red flags, some of them are huge red flags to be careful of.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot more.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's tons more.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like sometimes the most successful thing some companies can do is invent new red flags.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the key is to keep your eyes open to evaluate honestly.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that idea of evaluating not just what this job is or isn't, but also what are the alternatives?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've only been offered one job in the past six months.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: If I turn it down, the alternative is I might not get another job for another six months.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: So is that worse than getting a job that I might not like?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so evaluate honestly and choose the best option for you.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not the perfect option, but the best one that you can.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to have to live with some red flags.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: No company is perfect.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that needs to be okay.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: You aren't a perfect employee either.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you find a perfect company, don't work there because you'll just mess it up.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the key is to make a clear-headed decision that takes in all the facts and chooses the best thing, the best employment opportunity or not for you.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: As always, I am Tim Corey.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dev Questions.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to imtimcorey.com and enroll in a course.