Latest / Authentic Living / How Leaders Can Be More Effective Regarding Mental Health in the Workplace (Part II) with Bernie Dyme

Transcript

How Leaders Can Be More Effective Regarding Mental Health in the Workplace (Part II) with Bernie Dyme · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:37
  Our interview last week was so good that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
• 0:42
  If you missed last week, you'll find the link in the show notes.
• 0:46
  It's not mandatory that you listen, but we wanna make sure that you don't miss out on this
• 0:52
  amazing conversation.
• 0:54
  You talked about some strategies, and I I like it.
• 0:57
  So if you have lived experience, if you've had, you know, like I say, normal things that would
• 1:02
  cause you to need to speak to someone to get that support.
• 1:06
  Right?
• 1:08
  I often say it's start you said it starts with a leader.
• 1:11
  Right?
• 1:11
  So we want, like, you know, I talk about authentic leadership.
• 1:14
  We want that leader to have an awareness that Here she's living their truth, in this space,
• 1:21
  in this time around mental well-being.
• 1:24
  So telling their story, What are some other steps that leaders could consider taking to to
• 1:31
  create that more of that, that alignment with perceptions about a mental health and reality
• 1:36
  in some of these workplaces.
• 1:38
  I'm gonna talk about these top tier EAPs and how important that is EAPs are are have been a
• 1:45
  little they've been beaten down a little bit, and that's because I think the partnership,
• 1:50
  EAPs in a vacuum don't do well.
• 1:52
  Nothing in a vacuum does well.
• 1:54
  It needs to be a partnership.
• 1:56
  So working with leadership and EAPs to really kind of develop and it starts with a strategic
• 2:02
  approach to doing this.
• 2:03
  And in some cases, it's really about coaching the leaders on how to be comfortable with that.
• 2:08
  Or if they're not comfortable, which is fine, having other members of leadership team talk
• 2:14
  about these things.
• 2:15
  But leaders have to show up As you say, authentic leadership is about showing up.
• 2:20
  When I walk down the hall of my organization, I know that's that doesn't happen that often
• 2:26
  anymore.
• 2:26
  But when I walk down the hall of my organization, I know that people are watching,
• 2:31
  and I may have just had something bad to eat that's giving me a little indigestion, but if
• 2:35
  I'm making faces, everybody is thinking the horrible things are happening.
• 2:39
  So being available, being there showing up to work in an authentic way is really important.
• 2:46
  The other is figuring out ways to communicate with people, not lies, not minimize, you know,
• 2:52
  being able to sort of stand up in front of the group and say, here's what's going on.
• 2:57
  To, react to questions in an honest, direct way.
• 3:01
  The worst thing you can do is overpromise something when, you know, when you can't really
• 3:06
  give the right answer, that's not a good thing.
• 3:09
  It's always better to say, you know what?
• 3:11
  I don't know, but I'm gonna find out and then make sure you find out and get back to them.
• 3:16
  So creating a communications plan, some kind of an employee engagement plan, Right?
• 3:22
  So in our company, when this started, I don't even remember how many months ago, we
• 3:28
  instituted a 15 to 30 minute every other week, town hall meeting for all of our employees.
• 3:35
  Some of those meetings are merely saying Everything's fine.
• 3:39
  Nothing's going on.
• 3:40
  15 minutes were in and out of there.
• 3:42
  They asked it gave gave people an opportunity to ask questions.
• 3:45
  Here's the irony.
• 3:47
  We never, in all of our history of perspectives, had a 95 to 100% participation.
• 3:54
  At these meetings, which are also We were averaging 95 to 98%.
• 3:59
  People are interested, and they wanna know that you're gonna be able talk to them as leaders
• 4:04
  and that they're gonna be able to have access to you.
• 4:07
  The other thing is to try and figure out in in any way you can to simulate activities that
• 4:13
  normally would occur in your workplace, virtual.
• 4:17
  So how do you do that?
• 4:18
  We have virtual cocktail allowance.
• 4:21
  Right?
• 4:21
  We don't advocate drinking, but we do advocate getting together and everybody's in their home.
• 4:27
  Just, you know, and we break into breakouts.
• 4:29
  Is it perfect far from it, but we're keeping connected.
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  We have actually, we have a committee, a social committee that came up with a topic called the
• 4:38
  water cooler.
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  Meetings.
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  And that's just basically where every week for about 15 minutes, people can sort of come to
• 4:45
  the water cooler.
• 4:46
  Right?
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  It's a digital or an electronic one.
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  We had a a a florist delivered to all of our employees these, terrariums.
• 4:57
  I don't have mine anymore because I have a black thumb, but they literally then we took it
• 5:02
  out of the box They had an expert Flores teach us how to do it.
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  It was a lot of fun.
• 5:06
  It was connect.
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  So those kinds of things, mixing fun with the ability to share your feelings, some kind of a
• 5:14
  strategic reentry or engagement plan, those are things that make a huge deal difference.
• 5:20
  And the other is to really, ensure that you're promoting mental wellness, mental health, and
• 5:27
  wellness.
• 5:28
  I think part of the way to get out of this stigma of mental health is, especially now,
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  we're talking about it being national, worldwide, su suicide awareness day, tomorrow
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  is is that, you know, we make it okay for people to talk about.
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  There are so many misconceptions that If you talk about suicidal cause people to to do it,
• 5:48
  that is not true.
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  There's research that categorically shows that, in fact, the opposite is true.
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  That it gives people more comfort to talk about it, and they're more likely to get help.
• 5:59
  Same thing happens in general.
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  So I I just think dealing with mental health mental wellness, we want a mentally fit
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  workplace, a place where not where people aren't perfect, but where people feel
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  comfortable not being verbal.
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  You know, that that old saying that's going around, and I think it's wonderful is we've
• 6:17
  gotta train everybody in our organizations that it's okay to not be okay.
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  Absolutely.
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  And, you know, the thing is I I think that that's that permissiveness to to discuss
• 6:29
  things.
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  Right?
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  Like, you know, when you're going through change and we've been in flux.
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  We we're enrolling change.
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  Right?
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  So let's talk about what's uncomfortable.
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  Let's talk about what we're not doing well.
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  What's You know, we're gonna talk it.
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  We yes.
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  We can talk about the champions and who's done what.
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  But what is it that you did kind of poorly that you've learned from?
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  And how could you share that to say, you know what?
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  I realized?
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  Wow.
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  You know, when I haven't slept, let's say, and how many people are having problems with
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  sleeping right now?
• 6:57
  Absolutely.
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  You know, what how do I kinda take care of myself through the day, even though I've still
• 7:01
  got my 8, 10 hour day, how do I kinda how am I can I be gentle and kind you know, to be able
• 7:08
  to say, well, you know, I'm going to maybe be off camera a little bit more or maybe I'm going
• 7:13
  to you know, have my meetings in quiet?
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  I'm gonna come back in and out.
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  So just sharing those things, I think, is so helpful And I think as the leader does that
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  more, and that, you know, and they see when the leader says, you know, I've I haven't had that
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  kind of, good week, and this is kind of what I've been doing just care for myself, I always
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  talk about is how is the leader showing or demonstrating his or her capacity to understand
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  that I'm under massive pressure I generally am pretty good, but, you know, what I what I've
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  learned this year or this month is, wow.
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  I need to do this, this, this, more or this a bit less.
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  And in that sharing, like you said, normalizing it, I think then people go, wow.
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  The CEO just went through that.
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  And he or she is sharing this, how amazing does that get?
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  And that modeling and that that, you know, sharing what people start to recognize is if if
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  I'm a human being and my CEO or my senior leaders of human being and my manager's a
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  normal person, it's okay for me to also share.
• 8:17
  Absolutely.
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  And I think, you know, that's another thing that
• 8:20
  I think we need to really change quickly is this whole notion that the leader has to be
• 8:26
  above it all.
• 8:27
  Right?
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  And and, you know, look, I don't I wanna advocate.
• 8:30
  I I don't wanna sound like I'm saying, just let it all hang out.
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  I'm not.
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  I think there is decorum, and I think there are boundaries that all leaders have to think.
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  But you know what?
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  Being more, being genuine, being somewhat self disclosing, there's nothing wrong with that.
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  In fact, that gets people much more invested in engagement.
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  So you're absolutely right.
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  And it's it's it's one thing to read from a script and say dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot,
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  dot, dot.
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  But if the words don't match the deeds, people are not stupid.
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  People know that.
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  People know when you're lying to them.
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  You know, I do a lot of work with labor.
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  I love labor because if you lie to labor, If you are the union guys, they've got you smelled
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  out right away.
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  Oh my goodness.
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  So do they ever they they have the the radar off.
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  They sure do.
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  So you know what?
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  You can and you can disagree with that, but don't ever lie.
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  And I think that's you know, look, I there have been leaders.
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  The best examples of leaders are during crisis times.
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  I mean, anybody can be a good leader when things are going well.
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  During crisis times is when really good leaders really come to the fore.
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  You know, you think about some of the work that good to great, Jim Jim Collins.
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  But, you know, when he talked about what he called the level 5 leader, These are people who
• 9:43
  were real, who were authentic, and who also demanded, you know, that people were
• 9:49
  accountable.
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  So we hold other people accountable as leaders.
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  We need to allow ourselves to be held accountable too.
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  So I agree with everything you're saying Roxanne about, you know, people have to show up
• 10:00
  as leaders at work really being authentic.
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  Their authentic selves are it's a hard thing to define, but it's a critical thing to define.
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  But what I love about what you weren't your sighted.
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  And in my book, that's coming out in the fall on it's basically return on relationships, how
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  to, you know, work how to amplify how authentically this can amplify resilience on
• 10:19
  their teams.
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  And I talk a little bit about transparent see recognition, you know, problem solving, all
• 10:25
  those things, but not just that the leader, okay, the leader has to assess his or her
• 10:29
  skills, but is how is the team perceiving the leader in those areas?
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  And then going through different trainings, it's ongoing kind of analysis.
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  I often say, right?
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  We all know performance evaluation time.
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  Everybody covers and get that one objective that you have to kinda meet.
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  But, really, why is it just it has to be one time a year?
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  Because we expect optimal.
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  We know about presenteeism where you get 65% of productivity, but if we're constantly talking
• 10:57
  about things, there's the opportunities to understand what are my expectations of you as
• 11:02
  my leader and vice versa.
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  What are your expectations of the frontline person for the leader ongoing, and, you know,
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  the more we open up that channel, then people are able to share and be more collaborative
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  with an with an overall outcome in mind.
• 11:17
  Sometimes you're gonna miss the mark.
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  Absolutely.
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  But at least you'll have opportunities to discuss why you've missed the mark.
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  I haven't said it any better, Roxanne.
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  You know, I mean, leaders are called out to make hundreds of decisions every day.
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  And usually, they don't have the time to go, well, let me think about this for a week.
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  Right?
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  They're making snap decisions.
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  It's really tough to do that.
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  And, you know, when you're making a 100 decisions in a day, if you're getting 700,
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  you're doing really well, but those are the 30% of the time that you fail It's okay.
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  And if you yourself can't allow yourself to say it's okay to fail, but what if I learned from
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  this failure?
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  How can I move on?
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  I guarantee you other people that work with you and for you are not gonna be able to do it
• 12:01
  either.
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  I mean, people look at you as a leader, we have an an extra obligation to understand where
• 12:08
  people are at and to make it easier for them.
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  To be transparent with us too.
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  So don't walk into a room and go, I'm gonna be honest with you.
• 12:18
  I expect you all to be honest.
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  They're just not gonna do So they will do that more if you've demonstrated your ability to do
• 12:25
  that if you've shown your vulnerability as well.
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  They're more likely to be vulnerable.
• 12:29
  So you you're you're absolutely right.
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  And we're all reading each other.
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  Right?
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  You're reading, I'm reading your body language, your mirror neurons, we're calibrating.
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  We know this stuff.
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  People are, you know, intuitively.
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  That's how we're wired.
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  So we're constantly we're judging.
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  We're we're you know, we're kind of adapting our behaviors, those types of things.
• 12:47
  So I think, the more that authentic that people come to work I like to your point.
• 12:53
  Yes.
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  I'm not talking that you're gonna it's not gonna be verbal diarrhea, but being aware that
• 12:59
  there's a certain you know, expectations of yourself as the leader.
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  And when you set that poise, you have certain expectations.
• 13:07
  And in turn, you know, a flow that you want things to go in.
• 13:10
  And then you like you said, that overall corporate culture gets defined versus kind of
• 13:15
  thinking it's gonna happen in those quarterly meetings and a 1 year retreat, and we're all
• 13:19
  good, and we're gonna wrap it up, and we're gonna go off again.
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  We know that so much more.
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  And I I think that's the beauty the the positive of the pandemic that has brought to
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  light is that, okay, transparency has been a concept we've been talking about, but this is
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  really put our feet to the fire in that we it it we have no choice now but to be transparent.
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  If not, you know, people are using their feet to to leave and you're losing your talent.
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  You're not able to, you know, attract good talent.
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  You're not able to retain them.
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  And then ultimately, keep the people productive as well.
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  And that's the main thing.
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  And right now, you're absolutely right.
• 13:55
  We are in an employee's market, and that'll change.
• 13:59
  It shifts back and forth, but employees and this is the other thing I think leaders need to
• 14:03
  realize.
• 14:04
  It's not just about the money, especially for younger work I'm not saying money is
• 14:08
  unimportant.
• 14:09
  Everybody wants more money.
• 14:10
  They wanna earn more.
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  They wanna grow.
• 14:12
  I get that, but it's really about the organization And what you do during these
• 14:17
  crisis times as a leader is gonna set the stage for your future.
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  And believe me, people talk, especially now with social media.
• 14:25
  So think about yourself as getting Yelp reviews all the time, and it's gonna go on.
• 14:31
  So, you know, if if you're trying to start over and create a culture that's been negative now,
• 14:38
  you're really pushing a boulder uphill.
• 14:39
  It can be done, but it's gonna take some work.
• 14:42
  Really, it's important to use this time to really create a culture of caring of
• 14:47
  transparency of safety, of of, you know, of collegiality those things are what people in
• 14:55
  the future will make use as decision makers for either staying, leaving, or going to your
• 15:02
  place.
• 15:03
  More than a couple of extra bucks.
• 15:05
  We've we've seen this in some of our organizations where people have been recruited
• 15:09
  away because there is a labor shortage right now.
• 15:12
  And they've been asked for more money.
• 15:14
  And in many situations, they've come back to their employers and said, look, I don't wanna
• 15:18
  leave.
• 15:19
  They were offering me this ridiculous moment.
• 15:21
  I'll take a little less, can I stay?
• 15:23
  Cause I really like this organization.
• 15:25
  I think that says something, and I think that's really you know, it it you know, you said it
• 15:30
  about the job performance evaluation too.
• 15:32
  That one shot deal is almost bad because it gives leaders and managers an excuse to not do
• 15:38
  what they need to do all year round.
• 15:40
  Exit interviews to me are the same thing.
• 15:42
  I always ask when somebody says, let's do an exit interview.
• 15:44
  I always say, well, isn't that a little late?
• 15:47
  You know, shouldn't we have had this interview beforehand?
• 15:50
  Shouldn't we we should not, as leaders, be surprised when somebody's leaving us?
• 15:55
  We really should
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  We should know.
• 15:58
  You know, I I wanna ask you one thing.
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  I know I'm we're almost at time, but I I'm curious.
• 16:02
  This is my concept in my brain, not living in the EAP world.
• 16:06
  As much anymore.
• 16:08
  You know, when traumatic responses, you have trauma, response teams, I, you know, when I my
• 16:14
  early career, I would go out as part trauma team.
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  So trauma happens within 24 hours.
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  You get in.
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  You educate.
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  You educate.
• 16:22
  You educate 72 hours.
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  You do a debriefing.
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  And then you identify kind of what are the facts, what's happening.
• 16:30
  With the pandemic, right?
• 16:33
  We've been in an ongoing need for trauma responses.
• 16:37
  So from a bigger level, how does that kind of impact companies now, right?
• 16:44
  Because They've had they've had to educate, educate, educate.
• 16:48
  They've had to look at employee.
• 16:50
  Well, virtually, connect with employees enough to identify who needs more support.
• 16:58
  So after or I shouldn't say after because to your point that this is not gonna end.
• 17:03
  How does companies think about that?
• 17:05
  We've been in a traumatic, I'm gonna see Stance for well over 2 years, and it's not going away
• 17:13
  as we can see as we get into the fall with some of the numbers with the different strains
• 17:17
  coming.
• 17:18
  What's what recommendations would you give from that frame to to leaders?
• 17:23
  That's a great question.
• 17:26
  So I I think it begins with I think what you're talking about, and for the benefit of your your
• 17:31
  listeners and and viewers, so we're talking about critical incidents response right, where
• 17:36
  something occurs at the workplace, which requires an intervention that's almost
• 17:42
  organization.
• 17:42
  Somebody's on-site, unfortunately, because people don't go on-site anymore, a lot of these
• 17:48
  are being done by Zoom.
• 17:49
  By the way, it can be done and has been done effectively.
• 17:52
  I think though that those are related to or responses to traumas or incidents, that people
• 17:58
  have have had a reaction to.
• 18:00
  I think we have to define trauma very different.
• 18:03
  I think we have to broaden the definition of trauma.
• 18:06
  So, again, I'm gonna go back to what these top tier EAPs do.
• 18:09
  Right?
• 18:10
  The cops you're reusing and not the ones where you check the box, these are the ones that are
• 18:14
  basically saying, look, we're here.
• 18:16
  If you're having an issue, call us We'd rather say, you know what?
• 18:20
  That doesn't require a group response.
• 18:23
  In most cases, it probably will, but call us.
• 18:26
  Let's have a conversation about that.
• 18:28
  So we've been doing a lot more of that.
• 18:30
  And and what traditionally was we go on-site, we meet groups, we do education, now is a
• 18:37
  little different.
• 18:38
  We may be doing with 2 or 3 people.
• 18:41
  We may be going on-site or doing a Zoom thing.
• 18:44
  We may be doing these on an ongoing basis.
• 18:47
  We have we have a lot of health care institutions.
• 18:49
  We've developed a program using technology where These are people who are working on COVID
• 18:54
  units.
• 18:55
  And so they don't have the time to sort of sit down, make an appointment, or talk by phone, or
• 19:00
  get to a computer, So we now have text based stuff that is a way to just do in the moment
• 19:06
  counseling.
• 19:06
  I would consider that response to trauma.
• 19:10
  We also talk about professionals who are working on this stuff and say, you know what?
• 19:13
  People who are exposed to repeated trauma need help.
• 19:18
  And I don't care if they say I'm okay.
• 19:20
  I do this all the time.
• 19:22
  You see this in the news all the time.
• 19:24
  If you want people to burn out, don't respond to them and don't be proactive.
• 19:28
  If you want them, however, not to burn out, create a proactive problem that requires them.
• 19:34
  To take time on, that requires them to speak with people, that requires them to meet in a
• 19:39
  group, and use your top tier EAP to do that.
• 19:42
  I don't know if that if that exists.
• 19:44
  No.
• 19:44
  No.
• 19:44
  I I love it.
• 19:45
  I love it because I I often thought.
• 19:47
  Right?
• 19:47
  How do you extrapolate, you know, that concept?
• 19:50
  Because It's it's not going away.
• 19:53
  You people still have to go back to those COVID units.
• 19:55
  People still, you know, have just lost a family member.
• 19:58
  Somebody family member is in the hospital or they're recovering or somebody's isolating
• 20:03
  because
• 20:03
  somebody in school that
• 20:04
  it's going on.
• 20:04
  It's like you know, it's not plate, like, the plates of the circus.
• 20:09
  It's constantly.
• 20:10
  It's it's been twirling and twirling.
• 20:12
  And you look over here and it's, oh, it's slowing down.
• 20:14
  I gotta look over here, and it's we've been in that state.
• 20:17
  So that's what my concern was, what, thinking about the, you know, what is it that's being
• 20:21
  done, and it's good to hear that the top tier EAPs I'm not the assessor refer and go on to,
• 20:27
  you know, get 3 sessions.
• 20:28
  I'm talking about the re real core fundamental people that are saying, what change do you
• 20:34
  need?
• 20:35
  How can I support you and how can I be available really 247, which is really what I
• 20:41
  would see that people would need on an ongoing basis, you know, to to to to get through this
• 20:46
  time?
• 20:46
  And I know we're running out of time.
• 20:47
  We're out of time, but let me just say one last thing.
• 20:50
  Your EAP should be a hub.
• 20:52
  It should be the place that everybody goes for to when they need a resource counseling
• 20:59
  childcare, elder care, any kind of wellness resources.
• 21:02
  And you're reading a lot about these single point solutions where you know, you can get CBT
• 21:07
  on on on on your phone or, artificial intelligence.
• 21:11
  I'm not against any of those things.
• 21:13
  I just feel like sometimes what you're doing is you're you know, what do they say if, you know,
• 21:17
  to a hammer, everything everything looks like a nail or vice versa.
• 21:20
  I always get that wrong.
• 21:22
  We're we kinda see ourselves as being, as having a quiver with all of those things in
• 21:28
  there.
• 21:28
  But when you call me, Roxanne, I'm gonna try and figure out what quickly, what you need,
• 21:33
  what many resources you might need, and then I'm gonna get you that that's where your top
• 21:38
  tier EAPs are.
• 21:39
  We're not a 1800 assessment referral.
• 21:42
  I I could get my my son who owns a floral business to do that.
• 21:46
  That's not what we're looking for.
• 21:47
  These are people that can help sort of modify.
• 21:49
  So that's, I think, where EAP is coming in.
• 21:51
  Right.
• 21:52
  And because, you know, prevention is so important.
• 21:54
  And I think we really, really that's where some of the assess and refer, companies really
• 22:01
  unfortunately, didn't help the field of behavioral health because we re we recognized
• 22:08
  Yes, it's 20 fourseven, but people are for people to actually pick up the phone, Bernie,
• 22:13
  and you know this, and I know this.
• 22:14
  It takes so much strength to be able to do that.
• 22:17
  And to say to them now, oh, by the way, that's done.
• 22:19
  We don't, you know, we need to send you somewhere else.
• 22:22
  That's hard for any human being to be able to do to open up, say, I'm really struggling.
• 22:27
  Oh, and by the way, oh, you're at your 3rd session.
• 22:29
  It's time to send you off, and we know that the at this point, that people would disconnect.
• 22:35
  So I'm so glad to hear that that's available and to for leaders to hear that when you are
• 22:40
  making choices to make the choice to decide okay, where can I offer support ongoing?
• 22:45
  Because the earlier you get people on a preventative level, you're gonna you're gonna
• 22:49
  to keep people.
• 22:50
  You're gonna they're gonna be emotionally healthier.
• 22:52
  They're gonna get support.
• 22:54
  They're gonna learn how to communicate.
• 22:55
  They're if it's trust management that's needed within your organization, all those things are
• 22:59
  gonna be identified under one umbrella.
• 23:02
  So, these kind of services are something that, you know, I'm sure through this time has, you
• 23:07
  know, been invaluable for, companies.
• 23:09
  And I would say most companies need to get educated about what are they buying to support
• 23:15
  people's mental health right now?
• 23:17
  Amen.
• 23:17
  Amen.
• 23:18
  You are absolutely correct.
• 23:19
  Thank you, Roxanne.
• 23:20
  You said So I would love you and I, like I said, when Bernie and I met, we both belong to
• 23:25
  Forbes.
• 23:25
  I said, and I listened to one of trainings.
• 23:27
  I said, oh my goodness.
• 23:28
  I have to meet this man, and I knew we would have an amazing conversation.
• 23:32
  So, Bernie, for anyone listening, any leadership leadership teams, or anyone, looking
• 23:37
  to, you know, explore things for further with the AP services, or the organizational
• 23:42
  consulting tool, everyone where they can reach you.
• 23:45
  Sure.
• 23:45
  So you can always go to our website www.perspectivesltd.com.
• 23:52
  I'm available at BSD.
• 23:54
  That's Bob sam Dine@perspectasltd.com, please feel free to reach out with an email, and I'll
• 24:02
  be glad to answer any questions you might have.
• 24:05
  And and if we can help you, great.
• 24:07
  If not, I'll be glad to tie you up with a resource that can because I really do feel
• 24:11
  passionate about people and organizations and leaders doing the right thing for their
• 24:15
  employees.
• 24:16
  It really, you know, it's gonna make a lot more sense in the long and and that's what that's
• 24:20
  what I've always wanted to do.
• 24:21
  And I'm I've been very blessed to be able to.
• 24:24
  So I hope that helps, Roxanne.
• 24:25
  Thanks so much.
• 24:26
  So for anybody you're listing out there, if you're a leader, share, you know, even if it's
• 24:32
  something that you may think is insignificant.
• 24:34
  And, you know, if you're needing, more information on authentic leadership and
• 24:39
  resilience for your teams.
• 24:41
  Please connect with me.
• 24:41
  Just go to chat with roxanne.com and book a call to meet with me.
• 24:45
  And, again, Bernie, thanks so much again for your time.
• 24:47
  And for everyone, hang in there, and we'll talk to you next week.
• 24:51
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 24:55
  Create the space for positive healthy change.
• 24:58
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 25:04
  roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 25:08
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.