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Can We Still “Unite the Clans”? · Crisis Point

• 0:01
  For years, the Unite the Clans movement tried to bring all traditional Catholic groups together under a common cause.
• 0:08
  Is this still possible after The Society of St. Pius 10th Episcopal Consecrations last week? Hello, I'm Eric Simmons and welcome to Crisis Point.
• 0:28
  Foreign.
• 0:34
  Okay, I will be honest and just say I am getting a bit tired of talking about The Society of St. Pius 10th and their Episcopal consecrations. And I'm sure there are many people who would chime in and say, we're tired of hearing you talk about it, Eric, and that's fine. I don't think I've ever done any topic this many episodes in a row. I think I've done four now, maybe five. I can't remember. Maybe the election poplio six, 14th. I don't even think for that I did, but I do think it's important. I mean, I really. Yesterday I was spending all day trying to think of another topic to talk about, but I do think this one's still a topic that I think is of importance. I think people care about it. I think it has. It can have a major impact on the church.
• 1:19
  And I think we need to make sure we move forward in a way that is helpful for the church. And, and I think that's, that's what I want to talk about today is specifically the idea of Unite the Clans. Okay. So make sure everybody understands what I'm talking about here. It was. This is like a slogan made well known, made famous within the traditional movement by Michael Matt, who runs Remnant Magazine, Remnant newspaper. I'm sorry.
• 1:45
  Michael's a great guy. I like him a lot. I think he's done a lot of great work for the church over the years.
• 1:51
  And his idea is that we have to unite the disparate movements within traditional Catholicism.
• 1:57
  So, for example, the diocesan priests who celebrate the TLM, the ecclesia dei communities like Fraternity of St. Peter and Saul, Christ the King and the Society of Saint Pius X.
• 2:09
  Now, I think everybody knew the main thing to unite there is the Society of St. Pius X with the ecclesiae communities, so so to speak, and with the diocesan run tlms and things like that. Because I think that's where the major tension has always been among traditionalists, at least for the last, let's say 20, 25 years or so.
• 2:31
  And so his idea was we need to unite. We have a common enemy, which is Modernism.
• 2:36
  And that is what we have to fight against more than anything. And we can't be fighting with not. He didn't. He never said we have to agree with each other on Everything he just said, we have a common enemy, which is modernism in the church. That's what we have to fight against. And there's no question in my mind Michael is very sincere in his efforts. He's very hard working and he puts it into practice himself.
• 2:59
  And I will also say I have supported the Unite the clans myself. I think, I think I talked on Taylor Marshall show about it a few years ago.
• 3:08
  I've been to, I've spoken at a Catholic Identity conference, which is the conference Michael puts on. And so I've definitely been in support of that. However, I do want to ask the question, is Unite the Klan still a plausible strategy? Is it even possible after last week's SSPX consecrations?
• 3:33
  Because there's no question it has led to some significant fractures within traditional Catholicism.
• 3:43
  There's been a lot, if you go online, which I know isn't always real life, but there's been a lot of infighting or I don't know if you call it infighting, fighting between different camps. And there's been a split really between those who support, who still support the society and the consecrations and those who don't. So for example, Kennedy Hall, Michael Matt, obviously John Henry Weston, they essentially support the consecrations and think we should still be united with the Society and not have a problem and believe the excommunications are invalid and things of that nature. And then you have other people like myself, like Taylor Marshall, like Joseph Schall and others who opposed the consecrations thought they were a bad idea, thought they were a mistake. We have different views maybe on some of the, what we think was mistake, how bad a mistake it was, things like that.
• 4:34
  But the point is there is definitely a sizable portion of people who at least self identify as traditional Catholics who opposed the consecrations, while another sizable amount supported. I don't, I couldn't tell you what the split is. It's hard to sense because you know, people are very vocal for their positions and, and like you just don't know. But definitely each, each camp is sizable.
• 4:59
  Another thing, another indicator is Mass of the Ages who did the wonderful three part documentary, which, yes, I, I am in two of the three parts. They have a Latin Mass finder on their website, latin mass.com and they removed the society chapels after last Wednesday, after the consecrations they just, they took them out and so that kind of tells you something. And another, another Mass finder, I can't remember which one it was, also took out the society chapels from their mast finder. And so we see this is a real, A real divide, a real fork in the road.
• 5:35
  Now, I want to state one thing very clear.
• 5:38
  I personally at least, still consider those I'm in disagreement with on this issue, still to be friends, still to be colleagues. So, for example, Kennedy Hall, I've been friends with him for years.
• 5:50
  You know, he's written for Crisis for years. I don't all of a sudden consider him like, Persona non grata, like I'm going to cancel him or something like that. I honestly believe that they are sincere in what they believe.
• 6:05
  I haven't really changed my opinion of anyone is what I'm trying to say, from, from last week to this week or something like that.
• 6:13
  In fact, I wrote an article that was published today at Crisis on the whole idea of kind of how we deal with these disagreements, how we deal with them as adults, as men, not as effeminate little children, you know, attacking people online and questioning their motives. I mean, I saw a number of people who were attacking all SSPX supporters like Kennedy as being arrogant, having a Protestant spirit, as being proud. All these things just name calling, not really addressing their points, but just calling them names.
• 6:46
  I think that's wrong. I also saw, because I got it myself, a lot of SSPX defenders attacking people like Taylor and me, saying, we're grifters, we're just doing it for the money. We have moral cowardice. I mean, seriously, I would read something where it would say people like Taylor Marshall and Eric Salmons, they. They don't support the society anymore. I can't see it being any reason other. Moral cowardice. Cowardice, really? You can't see any other reason other than moral cowardice that we might have the position we have.
• 7:19
  That's a flaw in you, by the way, not me. If that's the way you think, and I use the example, my article of Thomas Aquinas, he never did that.
• 7:28
  I, I jokingly said that the summa theological would be about 100 pages if he did the, the argumentation method of a lot of people, a lot of Catholics online, because he would just say, oh, you're just atheist because you can't keep your pants on. Or, or, or you just, you have to follow the Pope no matter what, or you're a big loser.
• 7:44
  That's not what he did. He would listen and he'd really study what the other person thought. He would make sure he gave it the best possible presentation and then he would refute it. I don't think many of us do that today. I'm not, by the Way, I'm not claiming that I've never done the things I'm criticizing right now. I'm sure I have in the past. But at the same time, we need to get above that. We need to assume good intentions on the part of our, of others. In fact, I just saw today some bishop, the new Bishop of Denver. That's what it was. I can't remember his name.
• 8:17
  He basically said Catholic YouTubers, which, I mean, that's obviously me. I'm on YouTube right this second.
• 8:24
  Catholic YouTubers, they're just in it for the money. Just a blanket statement. They're dividing the church and they're just in it for the money.
• 8:31
  So somehow this bishop and I saw a priest then on X be like, yep, that's so true.
• 8:37
  So somehow they are able to read the minds and hearts of all these different people and say and determine, oh yeah, they're just in it for the money. There's no other reason.
• 8:47
  I get, just to be clear, I get very little money from being on YouTube. I don't even get it directly. Crisis magazine gets it and it's a pittance. I mean, it's not like YouTube's paying the big bucks or anything like that. So if I did it for the money, I mean, the amount of time I spend preparing and doing and broadcasting these episodes, podcasts versus the money that comes in the crisis because of it, it's infinitesimal. I mean, it really is. It's not worth it for the money is what I'm trying to say. That's probably true of most Catholic YouTubers now. I'm sure some are very successful, but I still don't think they're in it for the money. Maybe there is a few that are and maybe sometimes you do things perhaps to try to bump up the number, so to speak. Maybe you speak a little bit more crazy than you normally would if you weren't going to get paid a little bit more for doing that. I'm not saying we're all perfect and we're all pristine. I am saying, no, let's not be lazy. I think honestly it's a way to just be lazy and not have to actually address and argue the points at hand. I mean, Kennedy, I didn't, I didn't watch it. I will be honest, at this point, I haven't watched it.
• 9:53
  My understanding is Kenny did like a two hour video, I think on all the points defending the society, on all the points related to consecration.
• 10:02
  That is something that you need to, we need to address, not just call them arrogant. Or have a Protestant spirit. Likewise, I've done a ton of videos, I've posted a lot online. I've written articles. Taylor's done that, others have done that.
• 10:14
  And just to say, oh, they're just in it for the money, it just, it's silly. And also I just, I made this point online, but I want to make it again here.
• 10:22
  It's kind of funny too to say that like somebody like Taylor and me were doing this for the audience or the money. You do realize we're taking a position that basically annoys a lot of people because the kind of normie Catholics, they don't like our harsh criticism of today's church or our unapologetic defense of tradition. They're not going to all of a sudden like us and follow us because of the fact that we criticize the SSPX and the consecrations. Likewise, SSPX defenders, they're not going to like us because we criticize the consecrations, obviously. So if anything, we're shrinking our audience. We're not making more money by taking a position. We are like, I personally believe that. Michael Matter, Kennedy Hall. They're taking their position on principle. They've thought about it all, they've looked at it all, but they've decided, no, I don't agree with the Vatican. Here's where I stand. Well, same is true of somebody like me or somebody like Taylor do the same thing. Because guess what, people, we're fallible. We're all fallible. We don't have the ability and we're not omnipotent. We don't have all information. We never can.
• 11:34
  We don't know everything. For example, that's happened between the Society and the Vatican on either side over the years. Has the society at times turned down good deals? Have the Vatican sometimes shut the door on, on, on the side when they wanted to make a good deal? We don't know all those details.
• 11:51
  So we end up, and, and let's be honest, these things are prudential decisions often. And we don't know always what the best thing is. And so we can come to valid disagreements with each other while still believing that the other side is trying their best. So.
• 12:08
  But it's gotten pretty emotional, pretty ugly out there.
• 12:11
  I mean, it's gotten. I, I mean, I get it too, because like, for example, if you're a dad who's trying to save your family's souls, your children's, your wife, you're trying to bring them to heaven and you attend a society chapel and you have for Years. Because the other option is maybe some crazy parish down the street in which everybody leaves the faith after they grow up old enough. You don't want to see your kids do that. So you're like, well, my option is society. You don't care. Keep track of like, okay, are the physical consecrations, are they, are they listed or not? Or are they, you know, canonically correct or not? Whatever. You don't care. You're just like, I just want to save my, my kids souls. So I get you're going to get emotional when somebody says what you're doing is wrong. I get that.
• 12:57
  So all that being said, this isn't though, a minor disagreement. This isn't something I don't. I think we can just wave our hands at and gloss over and say it's not that big a deal.
• 13:11
  You know, these are not the droids you were looking for. We can't pull that move on this. This I do believe it's a fundamental point of disagreement, one that does potentially threaten any type of unity movement. It does threaten ability to unite the clans. I don't think it's a minor issue. That's why, by the way, we're fighting so much about it. We wouldn't be talking about it for weeks. We wouldn't be having these fights if it wasn't a big deal.
• 13:38
  And so that's why we have to address it head on.
• 13:44
  Now, I personally do think that the Society of Saint PI X is in schism.
• 13:51
  I do think what they did last week put them into schism. I do think their bishops, their six bishops are validly excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
• 14:01
  I think they're all their priests and, and some of their lay faithful, the ones who are definitely all in basically have likely incurred automatic excommunication. Although I am not an authority who can judge that and adjudicate that. I'm just simply saying that I agree with the statement from the DDF that essentially if they fall into the two conditions of internal and external kind of support for the society, so exclusive participation in society events, ecclesial events, and also like a complete support of the actions of the Society, of the consecrations, whatnot, I do think that person does incur automatic excommunication. Potentially they do.
• 14:45
  They could potentially do it if all the other conditions apply.
• 14:49
  And they would need. In fact, if they came to me and said, okay, I want to come back and just start attending a regular parish, I would say you have to go the bishop, go to the priest or whatever to get that resolved. First, because it's very possible you are excommunicated. But definitely the bishops are. And so I would say the society is in that situation.
• 15:08
  I would also say I don't, I'm not going to recommend anymore somebody attend a society chapel. I've gotten this question over the years many times just from regular Catholics who they, you know, they get to know me or they see me at Mass like that and they ask me, oh, yeah, do you think it's okay to attend society chapel? And for a number of years I said, I personally don't myself. And I would choose a kind of approve quote unquote. Quote, unquote TLM parish first.
• 15:36
  But I never really said. I would say not to, but now I'd say I, I would recommend not going to one. And I get why people do attend and will continue to attend. And I'm not here to judge them.
• 15:48
  I'm not their judge.
• 15:50
  Absolutely I'm not their judge. I'm just simply giving my own opinion if I'm asked. That's what I'm saying.
• 15:56
  That's what I, that's why I think, and I know this upsets a lot of people who have followed me who have said, oh, you've done, I mean, I've seen this numerous times the past week or two.
• 16:07
  I've really liked your content, but you're, you're, you're blowing it here. Or I really like your content, what you said over the years, but now you're really on the, you're really making me not like you and distrust your judgment. I get that.
• 16:19
  And that's fine. I mean, you know, we're all just spouting our opinions here online and you, you don't have to follow me, you don't have to agree with me or anything like that. I don't mind. I don't mind. I understand. That is what I'm trying to say. We just can't act like things are just hunky dory. And I can't just pretend. I mean, I feel like my job here is just to tell you what I think my opinion of something. And I get some people aren't going to agree with it, and that's okay.
• 16:44
  And this is one where it's a, I think it's a big deal. And so the question is, again, can we unite the clans? Now, see here, for me, there's always been a little bit of a problem with the unite the clans. I've always thought this, I think I've said it in the past, whereas I, I've supported Michael's, you know, general push to unite the clans.
• 17:02
  I'd also say there was one elephant in the room that was, what do you do with the city of a contest?
• 17:08
  Some people, like Father Nix, who, who's who. I know who a lot of you know, he was like, yeah, include them in the whole united clans. He is a very broad brush, very big tint, I should say, of what it means to unite the clans.
• 17:23
  I, however, never included them because I don't think they were part of. They weren't on a team, to quote a famous man. They weren't on a team because they weren't in union with the Vicar of Christ, with the Pope.
• 17:39
  And so the C's I never included. And frankly, I just. The setis are just a joke in my mind. I think a lot of them have mental problems. And I'm not saying that like as an insult. I'm saying that as actually interacting with SETI vakantas and talking to people who have gone to SETI chapels for a while.
• 17:59
  I know a few that are not. But I'm just saying that I think they have real problems. And so I've never included them because ultimately it's like, what's the point of uniting with somebody whose position is such that undermines, in my view, it undermines the very promises of Jesus Christ to the church.
• 18:22
  And so I never had them, but some did so already. We had so already had some issues there.
• 18:28
  The question then is, what is your line? What is your line where if you cross it, you're no longer on the team, you're no longer part of in a clan that you want to unite with.
• 18:40
  Like, we know somebody like a Father James Martin isn't included.
• 18:45
  He's not in a clan that we're going to unite with.
• 18:48
  And, and for years now, we've included, generally, most of us included the society in the clan, so to speak, of the trad Catholic movement. But did they cross the line?
• 19:01
  I.
• 19:02
  I think the answer is perhaps.
• 19:05
  I'm not going to give any definitive answers on this. I admit that, because I'm still thinking through it some. I think there's. There's some difficulties here.
• 19:12
  I'm not. I'm not condemning individuals who attend the Society of St. Pius X Chapel. I'm not condemning even individual society priests or anything like that. I'm not trying to cancel them. I'm not saying we, you know, like, I don't know. I'm not. I'm not trying to say we shut down their websites or anything like that. I'm simply saying is when we talk about uniting the clans, I'm finding it now much harder to unite with the Society than I was just a little while ago.
• 19:44
  Some of it, I will admit, is because, okay, so as you know, they announced in February that they're going to do the consecration of July 1st. I did not come out and make an opinion, my opinion on whether or not I thought that was right or wrong at the time, because I didn't know. I was like, I really want to study this. I really want to pray about this. I really want to think about this. I don't want to just have a knee jerk. Oh, yeah, that's great. Or, oh, no, that's terrible. And so I, I did that. I did not come out and think, I mean, I didn't to myself or publicly, what did I think about this until middle of June or so.
• 20:15
  And I did a lot of study. I, I did a lot of, like, research. Okay, what about the 88 consecrations, which, by the way, I've always posed. I've always said the 1988 consecrations were wrong. I thought it was a mistake that Lefebvre did what he did. Even when I supported society, I always said that. But ultimately I was like, I started to see, and I'm sorry, I'm just going to say it. There's more problems with the Society than just the consecrations, and I think they're being revealed right now.
• 20:42
  By the way, I do want to stop something here to say something. I am trying right now to get a.
• 20:49
  Somebody to represent the Society to come on the podcast to talk to them. I, I don't. I, I, I do think, like I say that because I want to make it clear that I'm not canceling them. And I do think the people involved are probably very good, sincere. They love the Lord and they're trying to do what they think is best. And so I do want to get somebody, excuse me, on the podcast to talk about, to kind of hash out some of these issues. But my point is, is that right now is there are, I think there are deeper problems, and I think a lot of it comes down to, for me, it just seems in practice that many people associated with the Society question the very validity of the Catholic Church outside of the Society.
• 21:41
  What I mean by that is, first of all, their, their stance for the Novus Ordo Mass. Now, I've been very clear. I think the traditional Lant Mass is superior, objectively superior to the Novus Ordo Mass. And I think the only Way to the restoration of the Church, to the the end of the crisis in the church today is the making the traditional light Mass the standard, the only liturgy of the Latin Church Ordinary. I'm fine with that. That's kind of a little different. But I mean just as far as the Latin Rite should just be the traditional.
• 22:13
  Right.
• 22:14
  That being said, I've always thought, I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that they'll basically say if you live in a town with only a Novus Ordo parish, you don't have to go to Mass on Sundays. I just, I just, I think recommending people don't fulfill their obligation to go to Mass is a real problem, but that even I can understand on a long term basis. Because you think you might, you know, it might harm your faith if it's like a real crap.
• 22:42
  Yeah, I was just say a real crappy parish.
• 22:45
  But like even the idea that if you're on vacation, for example, and the only thing available is Novus Ordo and they would say you don't have to go on Sunday and I would say that's wrong because you're not going to lose your faith because you went to one Novus Ordo Mass. It's not like a disease where all of a sudden you catch a virus there or something like that and all of a sudden all your kids are going to fall away.
• 23:09
  But that's what they would recommend, that you just don't go.
• 23:13
  And I think that recommend people not fulfill their Sunday obligation when they can.
• 23:18
  I think that that's real problematic. And I think honestly when I see their, their, their insistence on having their own bishops and I've seen people explicitly say this, who support, who are society people. And I'm saying they're official spokesman. I'm not saying all the priest believers, I'm not saying anything like that. I'm just simply saying it's clearly thought by many in the society.
• 23:40
  They questioned the validity of the bishops who are ordaining priests for the fraternity, priests for the institute, people like Cardinal Burke, Archbishop Winsky, Archbishop Cordleone, people like that, they question the validity orders. They, they think that if you're ordained by those men, your orders might not be valid because they might not be val. Even if it's in the traditional right. Because their orders, because they were ordained or consecrated in the new right, they question its validity.
• 24:08
  And so I think that's the real issue. I think that's why, because it's clear after 35, almost 40 years, the fraternity just keeps on keeping on and they've been faithful to tradition and they don't have their own bishop. And they've been able to do what they've done for now many, many years. So it's clear that's not an argument that all of a sudden, if we don't get our own bishop or bishop, we'll just disappear. The fraternity didn't disappear. It's grown. So has the institute. So have other traditional organizations within the church.
• 24:43
  And so my point of this is that, yes, I have gotten more strongly kind of opposed to many aspects of the Society while still believing in their good faith of many of their members, of not trying to condemn them. I'm not judging, you know, if they're excommunicated or anything like that, other than the bishops, they are excommunicated because that's. That was clear.
• 25:05
  And here's the other thing, though. I totally agree with the vast majority of the Society's analysis of the crisis in the Church today. I probably agree with 90% of it at least. I don't agree with all of it, but I do agree with a lot of it. I think they. They pinpoint it very much, and I do think it's true.
• 25:24
  They are able to point out things that ecclesia priest, for example, like fraternity priests, like I can't point out because for fear of getting potentially punished or something like that.
• 25:38
  But honestly, I think that's part of being part of the Church is, yeah, there are some downsides.
• 25:43
  There are some downsides that being under a bishop, guess what? That's always been the case.
• 25:48
  Bishops throughout history have acted in capricious ways, in unjust ways. And that's part of being Catholic is you're under bishops who don't always act in the best interest of the Church. But I do get that, that having a society there do that is. Is something.
• 26:05
  And so I just think that when I think about the clans, I'm not really thinking about the society as much anymore. Not that I don't think they're. They're more like, I guess a better way I think of them now is they're like, okay, we are in agreement about a lot about analyzing what the problem in the Church is, but we're not in agreement with the solution that we're positing. I have a different idea of what the solution is than they do.
• 26:37
  And because I think the consecrations kind of reveal that, that we don't have the same idea of the solution like I might in the future. I mean, like I said, I'm planning to Have a society person come on here, hopefully soon to talk about some of this. But like, it's not like in, in three years from now, if I want to have a priest society, I want to have on. I'm still going to do that. Again, I'm not trying to cancel. I mean, I had an orthodox priest on here. Why wouldn't I have a society priest on here? That's just kind of silly. I'd have Father James Martin on this, on this podcast if he, if he would come on.
• 27:09
  I mean, I'm. He wouldn't feel very comfortable probably, but I'd have them on.
• 27:15
  And I actually think I, okay, this is my kind of opinion of going forward and I could be wrong.
• 27:24
  I think it's most likely over time the society is not going to grow because of this. I think they are actually going to shrink. I don't mean immediately in the short term.
• 27:35
  I mean the long term. I don't think people recognize. Some people at least don't recognize how much Pope Benedict lifting the excommunications and then Francis granting them faculties for confessions and marriages, how much that normalized institute mainlined the society in the minds of many Catholics, especially in traditional Catholic minds. It's like, sure, you could go there because they're not excommunicated. Sure you can go there because their confessions are valid.
• 28:06
  Like, I think I was one of the more scrupulous people about not as far as traditional castle, about not attaining the society chapels. Now I never had a real need to because I, I have traditional Catholic masses available to me. I had no interest in it though Others, you know, did attend at times. But I think by taking that away and basically announcing excommunication and saying, literally saying don't attend anymore and saying the confessions and the marriages are invalid, I think that's going to have a long term impact for the negative for the society. I think a lot of their growth, a lot of their support was due to what Pope Benedict and Pope Francis did. Now lots of things can happen going forward. Lots of different things can happen. People can, you know, the Pope Leo could do something that could change things or something like that. I simply think that what will happen is they will go down a path that's kind of separate from the wider church, so to speak, and the wider church will kind of start to ignore them.
• 29:04
  I'm not saying it's a good thing or bad thing. I'm just simply saying I think that's what's going to happen. Like we'll just kind of go about Our business, they'll go about their business and the twain shall not meet very often.
• 29:16
  So what do we do going forward? I mean, obviously we have to pray with the fast for reconciliation. I want. I don't want that to happen. I want to be where we're all together.
• 29:26
  I do think we should turn down the temperature a bit. I'm not claiming I haven't been one who's amped it up some. At times I try to just simply state my position without insulting people, without questioning their motives or anything like that. I'm not saying I'm 100% successful, but I do think we have to turn down the temperature a bit and just acknowledge on all sides that there's confusion in the church and so people are going to have different views of how to proceed.
• 29:51
  But we can also say that we think the way another person proceeding is wrong, that we don't agree with it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what adults do.
• 30:01
  We all agree that the major problem in the Church is not the Society of St. Pius X. That's not the major problem in the Church. The major problem in the church is Modernism. In the church, the question is how best to fight Modernism. I personally think the consecrations harm our ability to fight the Modernism.
• 30:19
  I think they make it harder for. They weaken our voice, they weaken the voice of those traditional Catholics who are against Modernism in the church.
• 30:27
  And so they harm our ability. So I do think that that that's why. That's not the only reason, but that's the only reason I oppose it is because I actually think it's harming our ability to fight the major problem. They're not the major problem, but what they did weakens our ability to fight the major problems in the Church today, which is Modernism.
• 30:45
  Because I do think we have to respond properly. Yes, there's a crisis in the Church. It's just so childish. I'll just say it's just so childish. How often you see a society supporter online, they'll post something with a priest dancing or a gay mass or pride mass or whatever, and they'll say there is no crisis in the Church. Like that's what we're all saying.
• 31:07
  No, there is a crisis in the Church. That's what most of us are saying. I know there's a few that say there isn't one. It's mostly progressives. But we're all saying there's Christ in the Church. We're simply saying is how do we respond to that? And I personally think defying a Direct order of the Pope in an area where he has legitimate authority. Note how I described that, how I said that, I think doesn't help the cause. It doesn't help the cause, it just harms it.
• 31:34
  Because part of, as I wrote last week at Crisis, part of the whole problem is theological and doctrinal. And so we don't violate one theological principle in order to support other theological principles. I think that that's, you know, we're cutting off the branch that we're sitting on.
• 31:52
  And also, I want to say another thing. I personally think a lot of, especially younger Catholics, they're just tired of the infighting.
• 31:59
  They like Pope Leo. I mean, whether you like him or not is somewhat irrelevant. I think the average Catholic likes him in a way. They didn't like Pope Francis necessarily.
• 32:10
  And so because of that, by going against him, there is a PR battle here, too. Obviously, that's not the most important thing. I mean, you'll get your, like, autistic type Catholics who are just like, I don't care about any of that. All it matters is doctrine, doctrine, doctrine. Well, no, what matters is salvation of souls, and souls are converted through argumentation and through witness and through the Holy Spirit, things like that. And sometimes that is pr.
• 32:35
  Sometimes that includes pr. Yes. You don't go against doctrine. Of course not. Just like you don't go against a director of the Pope when he has legitimate authority.
• 32:43
  But the PR battle is part of it. And I honestly think that the, the, the Society suffered a massive PR blow by what they did last week. A massive PR blow in the eyes of the average Catholic. I understand if you're in that bubble, you don't see that. I've been in bubbles where I don't see that.
• 33:00
  You know, I don't see, you know, a P.R. a loss either.
• 33:05
  But I think you're, you know, if you don't recognize this was a PR loss for the Society, then you're not really paying attention, because it really was. And I, I think generally younger Catholics especially, I tune out some of these dates as they probably good and really need to do is on explaining. Okay, is the problem today, what is this comment? What is really worked from inside the Church by the church side of it, which I think, you know, by the communicated working in. In schism. And I just don't think that's the path forward. Forward.
• 33:50
  Okay, I've said enough what I'm gonna say. Let me get some of these comments from the live chat. I appreciate everybody I saw. I could tell there was a lively live Chat going on and I appreciate that. Hopefully some good comments in there. Juan Cristobel says, unite the clans, make the church great again. I am agnostic on the 1988 and 2026 consecrations. A perfectly fine position to take. Sometimes I am pro consecration, sometimes anti consecrations. I get that. I, I was like that for a while myself. I am now anti consecrations. But I do, I sympathize with you and I understand it is very confusing and you don't have to have an opinion.
• 34:24
  You don't have to have a strong opinion on this. It's not required.
• 34:29
  YouTube says revolutionaries dissidents need only agree the existing order must go purge after it's gone easy. Unity must agree on essentials. What is essential? Who is Pope, what is a church? Much harder. I agree with that and I just think that the key here is what are the essentials. That's where always, you know the famous line, I forget what was like what in unity, you know, like essentials, whatever.
• 34:51
  Anything else, charity. I can't, I'm butchering the quote. Whatever.
• 34:55
  The point is, is like what are the essentials? I think unity with the Sea of Peter is, is one of the essentials. I really do.
• 35:02
  I've beat the drum for years. You don't have to obey every single, every single thing the Pope says because his, his authority is conditional. It's only a certain sphere of influence. I think this is one where his fear. It was a sphere of influence.
• 35:16
  Cameron o'. Hearn. Oh, my man, Cameron o'. Hearn. Keep up the good work. God bless you, Cameron, and you keep up the great work. You are doing love Mass of the ages and what you're doing there.
• 35:27
  Alexa says this has caused a massive further crisis in one of faith. I love the SSPX folks, though I'm not sspx. But they're also right about many of these issues. Absolutely. They're very. I don't think it should cause a crisis of faith. I hope and I pray God is still with us. Christ is still with us. He loves us, he is merciful. He is working out, you know, he's working out the salvation of our souls. And we need to cooperate with that.
• 35:52
  I, I, I, I totally think that society is right about many issues. That's what I was saying that I definitely think they're right about the pinpointing a lot of the problems with the crisis in the church today. Mr. Joe Brooklyn says I've never been to an SSPS mass. Up until recently, I barely knew enough about them to have an opinion, but because I now support them, I'm excommunicated. This is a joke. That's not true. It's not true that you're excommunicated. Because I want, I'm going to take a moment to explain this one because I, I, I had a video about last week. Watch that. But I want to explain it again.
• 36:24
  If you quote, unquote, support them, that does not mean you're excommunicated. And the DDF did not say that.
• 36:31
  Essentially what it said was the decree was that the six bishops, the four who were consecrated and the two who were the consecrators, they are excommunicated, period. In a story that's like that, that was very clear.
• 36:43
  However, for the priest and lady, it's not because, it's not because you can't, the Vatican can't just say, okay, all these people are excommunicated. I'm going to name them all. Joe Smith, Kennedy hall, whoever. No, that's not how it works.
• 36:57
  What it said was, if these things are true, if these conditions are true, then you inc. You would incur automatic excommunication.
• 37:08
  And it's up for your bishop, your local ordinary, to determine if they are true for you.
• 37:14
  Now, the conditions are generally that you completely support them, I. E. You thought the consecrations were a great idea, you support their quote, unquote schism, which I don't like that language. But the point being that you support their actions they've taken in against, you know, for the consecrations. And essentially they're, they're the way they're doing things.
• 37:35
  Also, you exclusively attend the society masses. So this guy, Mr. Joe Brooklyn, he said he's never been to one.
• 37:47
  If he's never been to one, it doesn't apply to him then. So he's not excommunicated. And even if those two conditions apply, it still might be possible that they don't apply to you. That's what a local ordinary, your bishop, would determine.
• 38:04
  So let's be clear about that. Nobody ever said, yes, I should say some headlines said, but the ddf, the Vatican did not say all these people are excommunicated. It just didn't just read it. And it did not say that. It said that they are subject to excommunication that they potentially incurred if these conditions are true. And if you want to know whether or not you're actually uk, go to your local ordinary and find out.
• 38:28
  Okay, That's a hobby horse of mine right now. Devpad says this is all totally absurd. The modernist conciliar church is now asserting that all religions are past the salvation except the sspx. I think that is not a accurate way to describe the situation. That's basically what I'll say.
• 38:48
  Elizabeth says, what about those who only have the SSPX for the Latin Mass and they are not comfortable with their local Novus Ordo because as women distributing Eucharist and girl altar servers.
• 38:58
  This is a hard question. This is a question I do not have answers for. I will say this.
• 39:06
  The Vatican did say they urged the faithful not to attend society masses anymore.
• 39:13
  They did not say there was a penalty for doing so. The penalty, remember, is those two things I just said.
• 39:20
  If, for example, you are going to a society now this is, I do think you should talk to a good priest about this. Potentially not a society priest, but a priest that's completely in full communion with Rome.
• 39:33
  But I would just say this, this is my opinion is that if you, if that's your option or only option, and you really do think that the faith of your children, for example, and your family could be harmed or your own faith could be harmed by attending local Novus, ordinarily there's no other traditional lat masses available. You can't move or anything like that if you don't support kind of the schism, I. E. Maybe you were against the consecrations or maybe you just simply don't think they were a good idea. You just really don't, don't like the whole thing.
• 40:02
  I don't think that you fall under the automatic excommunication the way it's written right now.
• 40:08
  But I'm not saying it's an easy answer. I'm not even saying what I would do in that situation.
• 40:12
  I'm just simply saying I get it's hard, but it's not as clear cut as okay, if you go there, you're excommunicated. If you don't go there, you're fine. That's not how it works.
• 40:21
  Bring on Father Robinson. Father Robinson is great. I've had him on before. I would be happy to have him on again at some point. Like I said, I am in discussions to try have an SSPX person come on to discuss this kind of in a somewhat official capacity.
• 40:38
  Whether it's Father Robinson or somebody else, I don't know. Father Robinson's awesome though. I, I like him.
• 40:43
  Justin Rainey says, I have attended the SSPX Priory here on and off for years now. Their priests are, bar none, the best. Amazing men. I don't agree with any group Priests or pope all the time. They're excellent. Thank you, Justin. I'm sure you are right.
• 40:57
  Justin also says I do think they should have pushed the consecration off for a year. The normies need to keep quiet.
• 41:04
  Make your parishes equal or better than SSPX chapels and this will die down quite a bit. Do better. He is right about that.
• 41:10
  Like the normies who are screaming at the SSPX for being terrible, you know, being the worst thing ever while their parish is basically not converting any souls and leading people away from the faith. Yeah. Why don't you kind of keep, you know, keep your mouth shut on this one.
• 41:28
  I think that's a good point. But I do think like for example, the whole state of necessity argument for the consecrations was like it was necessary now on July 1st to do it. And I just, I don't think that's. I don't think that flies. There's a lot of different things. It was like the nuclear option you took before you had to.
• 41:45
  There were other. It's like, you know, with war, I would say you never use nuclear nukes in a war. But the point being that it's like the last option. You got it in just four. You got to try all these other things first. And I felt like the society had other cards to play. They should have played before doing the consecrations and they didn't. So I don't think it was necessary.
• 42:05
  Phoenix XP says they only say that because of kids who have grown up in the Latin Mass and then see the glaring differences. Communion in the hand, girls at the altar standing receive by name.
• 42:14
  I'm not sure what they. What you mean by they only say that. Phoenix. I guess I didn't get the context so. Okay, well I'm gonna wrap it up there. Thank you all, everybody who let me just have one more, one more comment. Gracie says I think this has caused more division between TLM communities. Yes, you're right. I've seen some nasty comments for the fssp. For example, I believe reform from within by much prayer is best. I. I'm glad this is my last comment I'm going to post up here. Gracie, I am with you 100%.
• 42:46
  I have long. Let me just tell a real quick anecdote before I or story before I close out. Thank you, Gracie. By the way, that was a great comment.
• 42:54
  I've long loved the Eastern Catholic Church churches and one of the reasons I love them is because I. They live out a crucified life better than any other like kind of group of people in The Church because the Orthodox can't stand them. The Orthodox hate them because basically have all the spirituality and liturgy of the Orthodox during communion with Rome. So they kind of shine a light on them. But the Latins Catholics distrust them because they're like, are you really Catholic? Are you really kind of Orthodox? Really? Are you really Catholic? I mean, a lot of normie Catholics think like that. So nobody likes them, and they just keep on keeping on. And I, and I've always loved that about them, respected them, and felt like that really allows them to unite themselves to our crucified Lord in a way that the, that many of us can't.
• 43:46
  I would say, and I've thought this recently just kind of came to me that I would say the fraternity of St. Peter's in the same situation, maybe the other ones too, like institute Christianity, but I think particularly Fraternity of St. Peter, the society obviously distrusts, does not like them at all because they, frankly, I think they expose some of the arguments of society as being not really accurate. They exist inside the Church. They exist within the, the overall structure, and they keep on and they keep tradition alive. So they don't like them. But then the normie Catholics think, oh, they're really schismatic at heart. They're really kind of like the sspx. They lump them in. They don't trust them either. And so I do think people attend. I don't attend a fraternity parish, by the way. I used to for five years. I moved. I didn't leave it because it was the fraternity. Anything other reason other than I moved out of an area where a fraternity parish, I think the closest one to me is about an hour away now.
• 44:35
  And I have a closer parish that I attend that offers the tlm. But the fraternity, though, I feel like they're kind of like the Eastern Catholics now. Nobody likes them. Both sides distrust them or hate them or attack them. I think because of that, they draw closer to our crucified Lord through that, that apostolate, through, through their, their work. So, okay, I'll wrap it up there. I appreciate everybody who jumped in, made comments. I, like I said, I know it's emotional. I know it's difficult. I. I want to make sure that's a clear message I'm giving. I'm not questioning the good intentions and sincerity of people I disagree with on this issue. And I'd ask they do the same going the other way. Okay, everybody, until next time, God love you. And remember the poor.