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Imagineer Val Usle Interview: How To Be A Disney Imagineer · Project Horizons

• Mike: Greetings, everyone. Thank you for joining us on the WDW Connection Show, where we connect with those great talents who brought Disney's projects to life. So today we're pulling back the curtain on how the themed entertainment industry really works and the part that most people never get to see. ⁓ Today I'm joined by former Val Ousley, who served as an Imagineer from 1978 through 2016, who will talk about his experiences in the theme park business, as well as his new book, Theme Park Project Wisdom. which is all about the lessons learned once you're inside that Imagineering building. And here you'll learn about how people break into the industry, how they grow, how they lead, how they navigate the risks and realities that come with bigger responsibilities. if you've ever wondered what it takes to get your foot in the door, ⁓ life is like once you're actually in that building and what happens when the Imagineering chapter ends, this conversation is definitely for you. So Val, we are thrilled to have you with us today. How are you doing my friend? Val Usle: Doing well, it's a little bit chilly up here in Northern Virginia, but I'm honored to be among your other speakers such as Scott Jordan and Al Dallas. And Mike, tonight I thought a little bit of a different take, more of a journey story rather than get into specifics about, this attraction, this how it works, or this is what happened in terms of making it work. And talk a little bit about the journey into a place like Imagineering or other places like Imagineering and once inside, how you evolve if you get five years under your belt, 10 years under your belt, 15 or 20 years under your belt. If you don't mind, I'd like to key off from that point. Mike: That sounds terrific. kind that journey ⁓ of someone aspiring to be an or anyone interested in going into the theme park business in creative world that you spent most of your career in. And I think a really good intro to this conversation. So I mentioned briefly in my introduction about getting your foot in the door. tell us your journey? you think is the best way for aspiring imagineers or creatives to start their career in this field. Val Usle: Sure, I'll start with my story, which is a true story, ⁓ we'll be evolving into a whole bunch of opinion on works and doesn't work relative to getting feet in the door and the like. But I fortunate. met Walt Disney, I believe when I six, and I him several times in the years thereafter. How did I do that? Because never physically met him. I saw the Sunday night shows. and every Sunday night, black and white TV back then, in the early 60s, late 50s, early 60s, I'd watch his Sunday shows. And the ones that really connected with me were the ones that he did walkthroughs of Wed, showing the World's Fair preparations or new ideas for Disneyland. mean, my nose was pressed on that TV screen. And really, unlike today, you only had one shot. maybe two, the original presentation and then later in the year a repeat and that was it, right? And so unlike today where there are dozens of books about imaginary, dozens of YouTube videos, LinkedIn is filled with imagineers talking about their experience and the like, there was very little back then. But the little that was there, they really connected me with Walt. And then in 68, I caught the virus really with no cure. Disneyland had opened the Carousel of Progress. On the ground floor, there was a revolving theater that talked about the progress of technology from the 1800s up to the future. And then at the end of it, a door opened and you walked up a speed ramp, pardon me, a speed ramp took you up to the second floor of the Carousel of Progress. And that's where the Epcot model was. The Epcot model, gosh, it must have been about 100 feet. in width and probably 80 feet deep and you sort of walked around the perimeter of it and what you saw, what I saw, was a multi-core city, star-shaped towers, high rises in the center, pie-shaped spokes of residential or commercial or industrial pie shapes coming off main body of the star-shaped city with spokes of transportation water rails coming out along the the radials and the people movers connecting it laterally. I could not get enough of it. I think they probably had asked me to leave because I just stared and stared and stared and things became real simple at that point. You see, between the Sunday shows and seeing that model and experiencing Disneyland just a couple of times, my folks weren't poor. We just didn't have any money. So our trips to Disneyland were really premised on grandma and grandpa coming out from Minnesota or an aunt and she would take us kids to the park. So maybe once every three or four years get to go to the park. But that one in 68, that made life real simple. You see, after coming out of that attraction, I knew I needed to help Mr. Disney, who had passed at that point in time, help his team build Epcot. And to do that, what do I need to do? I need to become an architect. How do I become an architect? I need to go get an education in drafting, design. I need to get into architecture school or college. And things just follow. Then we go into the mid 70s. I made it into architecture school. By the way, I had to apply six times. we weren't poor, we didn't have any money. So I was only able to go to a state college and commute to it. I wasn't gonna be in a dorm there. And I had three or four jobs on the side to pay for my college I graduated with no college debt. Kept things real simple, ate ramen a lot, drove. for my folks' feed store to make deliveries, fed cattle on their small little ranch, worked for a developer doing small houses in terms of the drafting and design of them. And then in the middle of the 70s, my dad and I are in the middle of a pasture vaccinating cattle and he says, you want to work for Disney, right? Yeah, I do. Go get a job at Disneyland, which was about 32 miles away from Chino, California. I down there, long hair and mustache. Bell Bottoms tank top. I was not dressing for success for sure. When the recruiter starts to interview me, first thing out of his mouth was, you know, we have no jobs in operations. ⁓ he said, ⁓ by the way, you I said, I'll get a haircut, I'll shave my mustache, you need. I need ⁓ have a good record here. So when I graduate from Cal Poly Pomona with my architecture degree, I have a chance to transfer up to wed. He said, I said, forget about attraction operations. I will cook your burgers. I'll sweep your streets. I'll put Pooh Bears on the shelf. I need a good job record here so I can transfer after I graduate from college. At that point he picks up the phone, talks with someone, says, hey is that job available still? Yeah? Okay. Hangs it up and says, do you want to drive the monorail for the Disney family? That would be fine. So get my toe on the door via the park. And I need to say something about that too because my first day after training, there's four days of training over two successive weekends, and then finally you take a solo in the monorail and you're a ride operator. And then on the next day that you come to work, you're going to be starting a shift. And I did. That first shift, the first position on the shift is down on tickets in Tomorrowland, where you're tearing e-tickets, letting the guests come through, letting 104 people pass and then say, please wait here. You cut the line and you turn around to watch the people going up the speed ramp, make sure no one trips. If they do, you hit the kill switch. Well, I led 104 people through. I'm watching them go up the speed ramp. I see movement to my right, high and to the right, where there shouldn't be. I see a 12 year old boy walking on the monorail beam toward the Matterhorn. Monorail yellow, he's in the station, so it's sort of like a cork in the bottle. He's walking toward the Matterhorn, where in about two minutes, another monorail is going to come around that blind corner and it's going to catch him. I hit the intercom, trying to signal my foreman to kill the power on the track. Now we'll stop the incoming monorail and prevent the kid from being electrocuted at least. And after hitting the intercom several times, no answer. The foreman's away from the council helping unload monorail yellow. Now at this point, I gotta stop the kid from moving. So I step out and say, hey kid, stay where you are. I said it very quietly, enough for him to hear, but diplomatically. He jumps. He jumps onto the hot side of the beam. Now there's a skirt in Tomorrowland underneath the beam. that stops rain water from falling on guests I just at that point forget the intercom I start tearing up the speed ramp pushing by guests screaming kill the power kill the power kill the power and eventually guests are screaming kill the power kill the power halfway up the ramp I turn to see what where the kid is what's left of the kid I'm looking for smoke you don't have to touch the bus bar 600 volt direct current it'll arc to you And what I see is Kilroy. I see the Monrail beam like this and I see his head popping above it like that. And now I'm not Mr. Diplomatic anymore. I yell, hey kid, grab the people mover cat rock handrail right now, grab it, do it. And he does. I just keep yelling to him, hold on to it, hold on to it, kill the power. The power gets killed. Later on, I'm in my foreman's office, pardon me, supervisor's office find out that he was a 12 year old kid who was supposed to be back at the hotel at one o'clock and it was like two o'clock in the afternoon. He was riding on the people mover, somehow got off the moving people mover, somehow stretched over and got onto the monorail beam. Yellow was in the station. He couldn't get by and that's where I met him. About 15, 20 feet off the ground on a nice Saturday afternoon, first shift. And I remember telling my supervisor, hey, I've got a question for you. What's that? Is it always like this around here? Now the answer is no, it wasn't. That was a very unique event. It never happened again. But it taught me about guests. The park was a huge education about guests, how they could be a danger to themselves, what they like, how they move around, how they react to cue lines. was ⁓ master's degree in guests, and I loved it. And it really helped me in future years. As I get into leadership and design positions, I'm always thinking, what could a guest do to really mess up their day? And so that stayed with me from that moment all the way through the 40 years I was with Disney. But anyway, back to the journey. I'm in the employee break area, and jobs are posted in there. And some of them were for Imagineering. When? And one of them was for a research channel. And that job was basically writing scopes of work for the estimators. Epcot and Tokyo were underway. The art directors, model builders, architects were all underway. And the scope writers need something that is a narrative. three has five AA figures, two special effects. The are themed along these lines. And I go, gee, I can do that. I can do that. There weren't any architecture positions open. per se, draftsman. And this was a entry level I felt I could do, applied for it. Frank Stanek, who was the project manager for both Epcot and Tokyo at the time, came down to the park, interviewed me, I was in costume, and I got a job. I got a job for entry level, $12,000 a year. I thought, rich, my dream job. I was starting at wed, and quite literally, I got my sheepskin from Cal Poly Pomona. on a Saturday, drove the Monorail for the last time on a Sunday, and started it wet on Monday. I mean, I was living the dream. And at that point, I'm entry level, foot in the door. everyone's journey is going to be different. What I just described was my journey. My son, who ended up being a concept designer at Imagineering, his journey was very different. Similar in some ways, but very different. Everyone's is different. And you just have to understand that there's no single path at all. And there's another thing too. I got in when they were sloping up for Epcot and Tokyo Disneyland. It was an opportunity for entry level people to get in because otherwise if they built these giant parks, it tends to be a sign wave that starts down. And the first people are cut are the ones with the least experience, We'll talk a little bit about that. So that's sort of the... Part A, my personal journey. Part B, I'd like to talk about entry level. Your foot is in the door now. So what do you do in those first one, two, three, four, five years? Well, my case, I got placed onto Epcot initially, and then I was one of the first dozen people brought full-time onto the Tokyo project. So my case, I went onto a project 79. that took me all the way into about the middle of 83. And large projects are interesting places. You can become complacent, unfortunately, because they're so long in duration, years and years and years. Well, today's going to be like tomorrow, and tomorrow's going be like the next day, and the next day and the next day. Don't think that way. Don't think that. That's complacency. Every day is going to be different. Your job is to move that project forward. Get it forward. Now it does look like this, right? When you're moving, you are advancing, but it always has some little steps back at the same time like this, but you're moving forward and you're part of a body of a community of talent that's absolutely incredible. I was blessed by having people who knew Walt, worked with Walt on various projects from World's Fair, the original Disneyland to all the success of Amity did to that part, as well as involved with the development of Walt Disney World before he passed. Those people are incredible. They are like mountains of knowledge and learn so much from them. And you get odd jobs too. I want to say in that first five years, look for every opportunity to wear as many different hats as possible. Do not silo yourself. Siloing yourself ⁓ the fastest path out of an organization. name was up on a wall I'm sure several times after Epcot and Tokyo Disneyland opened ⁓ they're going through with the layoff rodeo and was I kept around for probably a half dozen layoffs over 40 years? Because two or three things. One, I flexible. Whenever assignment came up, I did it, did it well, did it fast, not sacrificing quality, did it fast. and said, what do you have next? Wore many hats. So when Lightning came up and he said, you know, we got to cut FTE here. Where do we have work? Well, we have this kind of work. Who can do it? Well, thou can do it. I can keep them another week or another month, right? And so, wearing multiple hats, never complaining about it, and not making it hard for your boss to want to keep you around. Trust them. If you've got a great boss, trust they're doing everything they can for you and you will never see it. A great boss, you will never see what they do for you. You may learn about later on, but you'll probably never see all the things they do for you. I had some great bosses, really great bosses. I was flexible. in one project. I was a project manager and I was a shipping coordinator too. Every day I was going on the dock and... signing off export documentation for a cabinet that's going to Tokyo, a figure that's going to Tokyo or whatever. Okay, call me a shipping coordinator, pay the mortgage. It was a bridge to the next big thing, the next big project, right? Because when there aren't many projects, the job numbers for those that are available, they get mugged in the hallway, right? No, and so, wearing multiple hats, flexibility. You're not working banker hours, by the way. This is not an eight to five job. If you think it is, look for another industry. Look for another, because you're not going to impress anybody by just working eight to five. Mike: you mentioned, key tip to success, wearing many hats, a certain task, do this, learn this, learn that, especially in your first, you know, couple of years, because like you said, down the road, how did you survive those layouts, which we'll get into it a little bit is you can do A, B and C all those things that need to be done. And so that's key. Whereas if you stay siloed and continuing your current path. doing the same thing, with some differences, but it's basically the same task. limiting yourself and your skills. I think that's a great, a great tip. Val Usle: it's absolutely essential. Pay your dues. If your first question to your boss after a couple months there is, when am I going to become a director? As opposed to, hey, I just finished these tasks, what else do you have for me? Right? You're asking the wrong question. You need to always be there to fill the gaps and also, All those jobs that people say, that's not my job. And they may be a lot more senior to you. That's not my job. And when I was the head of sustainability for Imagineering, trying to get these different projects launched, whether it was geo exchange in the seven seas lagoon in Florida, or a thermal energy tank at Disney's California. I'm going around, I've got a very smart person here who knows the technology. He's got command of the technology. I've actually got two people who did. And I've got an understanding of it. But everything from someone has to find a site. Well, there's no such department as find a site for a tank that's going to be 65 feet tall and 30 feet across. There's no department. So that's why that's why. There's no department that says go negotiate with the city of Anaheim for the utility rebates. There's no let's go negotiate department. There's no apartment says ⁓ I need to go find this or that one you're the glue be the human glue you look gap filler never reject a job and if you've got a good boss they'll probably put you in the deep end of the pool several times and they should and they but they won't let you draw a good boss will not let you drown that's really important I also in the first five years ⁓ hit the wall ⁓ I'm not I'm not suggesting anybody not work hard, but I got to the point that I go, ⁓ I'm 70 hours, 80 hours a week, was 26 years old, I had ulcers. And I finally the courage to go into my boss and say, hey, I think I need at least two more guys ⁓ with little department gap fillers that we were serving as on the Tokyo Disneyland project. He said, what do you need? Tell me how many, who and what and we'll get them for you. And I go, why didn't I ask this guy about two bottles of Tagament before this point, right? And so work hard, but don't take it to the point that you're burn yourself out. That won't impress anybody, Mike: can affect the work product as well. As you said, you know what the project is, you know what you're working on. And sometimes it may take, like you said, ⁓ 70, 80 hours a week to ⁓ reach that endpoint. And what does take to get that done? And you have the foresight to see I can't do this all on my own. Val Usle: Hello? Mike: So it's good that you have that, that energy and ask for more help. Val Usle: And I had, again, great boss in the form of Frank Stanek. I remember, I think it was him that told me one time, as he, you know, I sort of fessed up that I was having ulcers and the like. He goes, Val, you're not indispensable. Walt wasn't indispensable. The company went on. If you're not here, the company goes on. So try to be here for that. And so those words that they sort of run to for me and I came out of that period. And the second mistake I made during that period too, initially as I got the help in, well I said I'm gonna work harder than them. There's two guys I ⁓ to lead by example and just back to burning the candle at both ends. And then I fell into my old ways again. I said that was dumb, stop it. I took a big old stupid pill, Industrial Strength, I realized what I'd done and I... I got back to normal. And one of interesting thing about projects too, whether you're in the first five years or the back 30 of them, you will spend more time with the project team than you will with your family. The hours that you put in every day with these other people is more than you'll have at the beginning or the end of the day with your family. That's kind of sobering. I'm going to jump ahead two or three decades. On the Tokyo Disney Sea project, I was multi-headed. I was the project manager. I was the design manager. I was the project architect in the field. But I set myself up, having learned two decades before, so easy to burn yourself out. So easy. I learned before, said, you know what? I'm going to have a pattern here. I'm just going to repeat it. And our Japanese partner and contractors actually liked the pattern. They loved it because it was consistent. And it was consistency they could deal with. So every day, I would get to the site early, before everybody else, about 6.30 in the morning. And... Nine o'clock our meetings with Oriental Land Company and the contractors would start in ⁓ office conference room and then move into the field. And noon, have lunch, hour for lunch or so. then the afternoon was set aside to review all the submittals, all the drawings, all the specs, all the cut sheets, all the samples that was occupying the afternoon. And by contract, we didn't have to turn submittals back to them. for two weeks. No one can survive waiting for those submittals for two weeks. So I told our Japanese partner, the contractors, I said, look, you own me every morning. I'm here at 6.30. If you want to start before nine, I'm here. But when we break for lunch, I spend the afternoon going through the submittals. Don't come see me unless it's an emergency. And they saw that By the time I was ready to roll home, six o'clock, I was wheels to the road. I had two little boys and a wonderful wife waiting for me in Tokyo. It would take me an hour to get back into Tokyo. We're have dinner at seven o'clock. Then I'm gonna bounce the boys all around. They'll go to bed. Then I'll roll up maybe a few more shop drawings on the table while my wife does her thing. But I was wheels to the road at six. Every day, except for probably. I'll say two dozen days where there was either a contractor or Disney dinner where we got together as a team or with the contractor to go out to dinner or there might have been one or two other events but 95 % of that time I knew where I was going to be a home with my family and in the afternoon it only got interrupted twice. A fellow came up said, Val, son. I'd like to talk to you about the New York Deli doors. And I said, is it an emergency? No. Then I'll see you tomorrow morning at nine o'clock in that conference room. But is it an emergency? If it is, we'll talk. No. So that happened twice. The contractor, Orland Company, saw every night before I walked away from the site, drove away from the site, I had a roll of drawings that come into their office and bam, stuff they gave me that morning, they got back. either in the evening or immediately the next day or soon the following day. It wasn't two weeks. And I was happy as a clam. That was a pattern we all, it was consistency we could all work with. And I'm talking about thousands of submittals, thousands of drawings and spec sheets and samples and you name it, from cordage to wood details, all of it. But it worked. Didn't burn out, had a great time, saw my family. So it's really easy to overwork yourself and I'm not one that says don't work hard. Work hard because you know why? Once the rumors of layoff start to pop up, that's not when you become the flexible, multi-headed, hard-working employee. They'll figure that one out right away. You be that consistently in an envelope of what your body and mind and family can tolerate. Well, not a little bit, well. that's what kept me around, I think. Mike: great just talking about your experience. Sometimes when you have these big projects, when you're involved in such a big organization It's a lot of time and energy. And if you're well organized, if you don't a good plan, not just a plan to complete the project, but plan for yourself to complete the project deadline for that day, like six o'clock, you're out. If it's an emergency, come in. If not, we'll address it in the morning. If it's an emergency, fine. no, think sometimes you have to really plan for yourself as well in the midst of these big projects. when you were in your especially going back to ⁓ after your first few years at Imagineering, when you first start experiencing in your projects being responsible for B, and C tasks and then transitioning to being accountable for those tasks. Val Usle: So being responsible happens right away. I remember Frank Stanek, this would be soon after the contract was signed with Ori Land Company, he initiated a weekly facility design review meeting. He said, Val, come with me. And we went over to the Tonga building where he was able to grab some office space on the upper floor. There were 25, 30 drafting tables there for architects, show set, interiors, area development people. Scotty's team was there, for example. And I sat in the first meeting, he chaired it. I thought I was just going to be a sort of an expediter, know, type person, fill the gaps, whatever. And then after the meeting was over, I'd watched it operate for about an hour and a half. He said, walk with me out to the car. I do. We get to the car and he goes, you see the meeting we just finished? Yeah. That's the last time I run it. You're running it from now on. So from that next week forward, I'm running, have the responsibility to your point to run a meeting. Now, in terms of doing it well or not, the great thing about a great boss is they have a tolerance for your mistakes. Because inexperience can be expensive. Because you will make mistakes. terms of things but you've got someone who puts you in the deep end of the pool but they're not walking away they're sort of staying in close orbit seeing okay how's this going is this working or not but and if they see it's working out they may actually say here's a brick hold on to it in the deep end of the pool because they saw you you handled what you they gave you and they give you another brick I Frank again this first five years in the Tokyo project He called me in his office and says, know what? Orin Land Company is coming into the ⁓ in Glendale here next week and we need to show them the master schedules. I go, okay. He goes, I need you to them. What? I you to the construction, show mine installation, air development schedules for the park. The park? Yeah. Do a couple of attractions today and show them to me tomorrow. And I that night. Found a drafting table, room, worked all night, actually slept under the drafting table. I had no family. This was in the, young I can do, I'm immortal, praise. I slept under the drafting table that night. The floor was carpeted, I remember that. And brought in the next day, Pirates of the Caribbean. Laid it in front of Frank. Now, another boss might say, this is crap. They said, hmm, interesting, interesting. Hey Val, go back to the stock room. Get me a chromium blue, a Nile green, and cadmium orange magic marker. did, came back. He goes, okay, here, let me show you something here. Let's take the facility, because I had run everything ⁓ sequence, in tandem, and nothing in this industry runs in tandem. You can't afford to, well let's ⁓ release a package of drawings when all the different trades in them are done. No, no, you're releasing site infrastructure, you're releasing foundations, then you're doing steel, and then you do, so there's a staircase of drawing releases and work underway. I missed all the parallel or fast track or phased work action. He said, you know, we can do this, we can have infrastructure start here and have foundations after, so this is a big building. Part of the grading will be done for part of it. We can start the foundations and then we get steel going. He showed me the staircase and used different colors then for facility and show and ride. And after we were done with pirates, he said, real quick, mark up what you think the main entrance ticket booth complex would be. And I did. goes, yeah, that's pretty good. Now I'm going do the rest of the park. And I did. Fortunately, they didn't come in and he saw the final product and he wouldn't have used it anyway. But it was a test in a way. He had a task, he gave it to me. It was like, hey, I'm these other things that designers use each week. I'm shipping all the drawings to Tokyo. I'm writing these scope books for the project. Give me another brick. I just needed to learn when I needed other people, I needed help. I need a couple more bodies here to help me on this. Because he never said no when I asked for help. None of the great bosses I ever had ever said no. Or suck it up, buttercup. never. That's because you're displaying, you work hard, you're flexible, whatever they need, you'll try, you'll do your best, and generally you can't fail all the time. You will make mistakes, but understand if I was making a mistake all the time, I wouldn't be there because inexperience is too expensive when it's that chronic. The occasional mistake, absolutely. Scotty, they'll put up the shields, right? I've had executives outside of our community get upset with me. Here's another Frankism. I talk about Frank in my books a lot because those first five years were so educational, not only terms of how process occurs, but in leadership. So Marty Scolar, you've probably heard of him. was in John Henshworth, head of Imagineering creatively. And I think the court retents too. Marty had told me, I want to review every design before it goes over to Tokyo. So we've got the Tonga building full of show sit designers, architects, air development people, and they're also serving Epcot at the same time, not just Tokyo. And they were down in Florida for two weeks out of reach. And what happens is we've got the Bear Band complex for sending to Tokyo. And I've got the team over in Tokyo begging, pleading me to send the drawings. and I can't get Marty or John for two weeks because they're just buried bringing ⁓ Epcot up. So I sent the drawings. And I sent a note off to Marty, he read it when he got back. I said, I released these drawings, I just want to let you know. And he had a red Crayola on a lot of his writing, put something on my memo and sent it to Frank. And Frank calls me into his office and he says, I understand. Marty's not too happy about sending the bare band complex over. And I told him it was done, couldn't get hold of him for two weeks for the review. And they were begging for the drawings over in Tokyo. I said, I'm really sorry, I'll never do that again. You know what Frank said? He said, that's not what I'm telling you to do. You do what you think is right. You do what you think is right. That's a huge statement. And then he was going to deal with Marty. Right? And I mean, I was ready to surrender to the I promise not to do that ever, ever again. Despite people on the other side of the phone in Tokyo begging, pleading, send them. Right? No, no. Said, you do what's right. Bang. Got it, boss. Mike: Yeah. That's key to a great manager. Like you said, you work hard and that's shown, you get results, you complete projects on time and yeah. And yeah, ⁓ yeah. And he's giving you that opportunity to, if you do make a mistake, okay, do it better. Do what you is right. Val Usle: And you have to be more right than wrong. Mike: And I think that trust that he has in you, helped you in your career, helped you grow in, imagineering to get more, accountable from responsible and also doing all these amazing projects. And so you get more trust, you get more work, obviously, but at the same time, it's key to having a great manager because it helps you grow. It helps you grow in the field that you're an expert in. Val Usle: So move now from the first five years and understand I entered those first five years I never built a bird bath or a dog house for the Disney organization. know, I'm raw as raw in terms of having delivered something for them. Now five years under your belt. Now you look back and if you've had a chance to do a major project like Tokyo Disneyland you sort of see the arc, the womb to tomb. While you're in that initial arc you go how are we going to get this done with a Spartan team that we've got here? I mean, how's this thing gonna get, you don't know, you don't know. But after you've gone through that arc, you go, okay, you do A, you do B, you do C, you do E, and on. The alphabet suddenly makes sense, it suddenly appears. Oh, okay. So when someone years later says, we're gonna go to Paris, build a theme park there, and none of us have built a bird bath or a dog house in Paris, that's okay, we've built them in Japan, built them in Florida, built them in California. So that next five years, things are simpler but they become more complex because now people are asking you questions. How much time do you need to do this task? How much money do you need to do this task? How many people do you need to do this task? You may not be a department head but suddenly people are asking those tough questions and here's the thing everyone is optimistic right? I can do that I'm sure I can do that for 500 hours, FTEs, whatever ⁓ metric might be. ⁓ gotta think twice about that. Hope the killer of good news, it won't happen. You gotta be realistic. So ⁓ the next five is learning to balance, okay, realism and optimism, because you'll wanna help that project. They've got a budget problem. I'm sure we don't have to. mock that up more than the first time. We'll get it right the first time we mock it up. We'll get it right the first time we do a proof of concept. Right? ⁓ I'm sure that consultant won't cost more than this much. Right? All those things, and what's happy is you're making mistakes, basically ⁓ adjust reality and hope and get some type of primitive balance. ⁓ you know, the big idea in project management is this triangle. where you've got scope and quality and schedule and budget, an equilateral triangle. Isn't that a wonderful sounding thing, an equilateral triangle? Your project never wants to be a triangle. It wants to be a isosceles, a scalar. It wants to be a rhombus, but doesn't want to be this. And even if somehow you squeeze at a milestone, end of feasibility, end of schematic, you still have that moment in time like this, hey, look at that, it's all balanced, it's all intention. it is very because the next day you're out of that milestone boom and the estimator comes in and I've got a five hundred thousand dollar bust where the scheduler comes in hey we got more rain than we planned for and this thing becomes anything but that equilateral triangle so the next five years is learning that that triangle is always in tension or compression wants to be in other shape and you're sort of learning how to maneuver in that world you may be leading a few people you're producing more results, you now have value, your training in some of the basics is behind you but you're learning every day you're not making the old mistakes, you're making new ones you're enough not to make the old ones because you tried those in the first five years once or twice or even three times and now just gonna make new ones but hopefully few of them again within a tolerance level that your leadership can appreciate and deal with. Because no one's perfect. these projects are built on guesses. Like every project is built on guesses. The estimator guesses it's going to be $150 million, right? what I write in my books stuff I've seen that works. Because you're describing a car accident. And while I do talk about sources of drama in our work, no ⁓ really learned anything watching a 747 land on an aircraft carrier. It's just, gee, that's a drama. And hopefully you're watching the village burn on the other side of the river, not your village. So sure someone will want to write books about that someday, but I don't. What I want to do is here's roadmaps that I used. best practices, here's the best practices that offset these typical kind of dramas you might find. Mike: you mentioned the triangle, that triangle of scope, cost, and schedule. ⁓ If those things stay consistent, you lead to a successful project. they do get constrained sometimes. with ⁓ cost. It could be scheduling issues. definitely complicated, especially when you have large projects such as major attractions and Imagineering. so are some of those ⁓ challenges that you're following a specific scope, are there changes to that ⁓ over the course of a project when you have a certain budget allocated that? Val Usle: So a couple themes here. Risk. You heard the first five years, there are people sort of watching you at the deep end of the pool, you're not going to drown. They're managing the risk that you present to the project basically. You will make some errors, they'll make sure they stay within the boundaries of do-ability as long as you keep them to the minimum, but you will make errors. Now the second five years, and it's not a pure five years either direction. Now you're dealing with risk. Risk that... you're not at the deep end of the pool anymore. People are trusting more of your judgment. And if you're risk-averse, you don't belong in the industry. If you're trying to accomplish something unique. if want average risk, you're dealing with an average project. Whoop, whoop. That's not what Wed did, that's not what Imaginary does. Okay? So now you're dealing with more risk. Risk, well what's the adverse or end state? That would be bad. over budget, deliver it late, or how about if the quality isn't good enough for people to come back? And when you also learn those those next five years, if you haven't learned them in the first five, that the biggest risk is for a project to be unsuccessful after it opens. You know, okay, maybe we spent a little bit more money, maybe we open a month late, but the bigger risk, if the idea stinks, if the public the audience doesn't appreciate it the guests don't want to come back a second time because it's a one and done I saw it all there's nothing left for me to see so you have to if you want to produce projects you've got to have high expectations high risk and be willing to tolerate everything except doing the stinker of a project now the only other priority that comes before all that is safety Guest safety, cast safety, right? That's above project stinks, but budget and schedule, they're down here. Okay? But also look at the dynamic that that creates between the project manager and the art director or the artist, right? Who's the greater of these two then? Given what we just talked about the risk profile. Well, the project manager, ⁓ I'm in charge. I went through a little bit of that stupid pill early on I forgot, wait, Walt Disney, if Walt was here, everybody do what he would say artistically. So I need to treat the art director, the artist the same way. If they say this is not good enough, we all better to be listening to that. Okay. If that special effect failed three times in a row and they go, need a fourth or fifth try. which is going to bust the budget for that mock-up. Hey, you know what? If he thinks that's what's needed to stop this thing from being a stinker, let's do it. Let's do it well, let's do it quickly and get on with it. Here's a whole bunch of other problems. And that brings us to the subject of discovery. Average risk, average project, yawn, right? High risk, greater expectations for results. The higher risk when it comes to our business is discovery. Whether it's a mock-up or a model that doesn't look good enough to you, we've modeled it now, whether it's physical or 3D or whatever, or you put the goggles on, you walk through the cave and you're actually experiencing it in real time. If the lead artist says it's not good enough, okay. What do we need to do? What do we need? That's natural question. do we recover from this? Do we hold a package back that's supposed to go out to bid because we have to add something else? Or do we do an addendum that adds a few more foundations to this ⁓ Whatever it might be. The question should be, what do we need to do to get it right? because these projects, whether it's first five years, the next five, whatever, you're going to live in a world of discovery, a world of risk. If you're not, you're probably delivering average projects, it's a family fun center or a location-based entertainment, but don't expect it to be there five or 10 years from now. Think of Pirates of the Caribbean. Opens in 65. Believe it was 65. That was 35 plus 25. That's 60 years ago. I'm going to be dust and that attraction is still going to be there. Mike: classic attractions that have survived the test of time and people go back for these attractions. had conversations previously about this. It's the repeat customers for this product that your teams created. People go back year after year after year to see the same attraction, some modifications over the years. Obviously those things happen, but It's the same attraction and there's something special about it, something unique about it that Disney and Disney's team created. So that speaks volumes. Val Usle: So talked about getting foot in the door, talked about the first five years, the next five years as a veteran. And now let's talk about the five years in leadership. Leadership, you're a functional manager, you're a project manager, in a position where the executives above you look at you as the belly button that's gonna get something done on this project. As a project manager, as a head artist, as a project architect. You've got leadership who don't lose sleep overnight about things you should be losing sleep overnight about. But one of the interesting things that's missed about that leadership position, and it can even start earlier, is some days you're more as much of a teacher as you are a doer. You've got those people that came before you, the entry level, the five-year veterans. and staff that you're assigned, you're leading them. And I heard, I think this is true, I heard one of the biggest reasons people ever leave a company is because of the quality of the boss they have. You have a lousy boss, it's so much easier to leave. You got a great boss, it's hard to leave. Even if the work is boring at times. You know, in this industry, my experience was, you know, okay, We have these mega parks, we build up staff, we let staff go. ⁓ another mega park. Boom. It's that sine wave. And it's about, anywhere from about a seven to 10 year sine wave. Peek, trough to trough or peak to peak. And. That's, you're in a room as a leader, you've got to decide sometimes in those troughs who goes and who stays, right? And you're obliged to help them get through that moment. I used to keep, as a function manager, I used to keep a list of companies that were hiring, that wanted staff from our community and the like, and tried to pass that on to... to those who might not be there. By the way, all this stuff I write about in my books, I wasn't the perfect manager, I wasn't the perfect first five years. one's perfect. But what I try to write about is also my woulda, coulda, shoulda's. ⁓ Boy, I was doing that again, I'd do this a little bit differently. Again, this discussion, books are loaded with opinion and ⁓ hindsight is very easy to do on risky projects. On average projects, is there much hindsight? No. There's more hindsight on the greater the risk, the greater the expectation, and ⁓ greater the discovery. So I just ⁓ want a caveat. I was never perfect. ⁓ I think I was pretty good. Mike: None of us are perfect. We do the best we can. We work as hard as we can. we strive to create that product that has value, that can be memorable, especially in your field. Val Usle: think the other thing too, these projects are relation builders or relation destroyers. I'm sure there are some individuals say, you know, gosh, here's my dream team. I wouldn't want to work with these folks, but here's my dream team that I always want to work with. And it's nice to come off a project and go, wow, I've made some friends because these projects can be real St. Crispin days. right? Where want your brother or sister on that battlefield was with you to be on the next battlefield with you. And let's talk a little bit about the field. Love the field. Field is great. Field is wonderful. Why? Personal preference. Would I rather be in a conference room with 30 people ⁓ trying get consensus on something Or in the field with a contractor, staff, maybe an Oriental land representative trying to fix something today. Now. It has to be done now. This is an emergency room operation, right? You have to know when you can make those decisions, and you should be able to make a lot more of them than say, you know what, you got to keep this one still spinning, the plate spinning. But the field, it's pretty... Down and dirty. I remember when on the Indiana Jones project, I was the project architect. I'm in the field, in the field trailer. And suddenly one day, the door just flies open. And in walks Buck, that's his name, Buck the Framer. And he yells out to the whole room of Imagineers, who's the architect? Raise my hand, that would be me. He walks over to my desk. I go, can I help you? Your drawing's wrong. There's 800 of them. Yeah, all should be truth tellers. He was a truth teller. I go, well, there's 800 drawings. Which one? I don't know. A321, whatever it was. I flip to it. Which detail? That one. Okay, what's wrong with it? Come with me. He actually picks up my hard hat, hands it to me. I follow Buck the frame route to the field. I look at the condition supposed to be framing into. I go, boy, you're right. And you know what I said next? What do you think we should do here? And he had an idea. A piece of plywood there I sketched out. Would this work? And after five minutes, he and I had a solution. I said, I'm going to go back, draw this up, give it to construction management. They should have something in their hands to talk to you about today, later today. But one the that this touches upon is whatever point in your career you're at, if you're the smartest person in the room, go get a different room. Because there are so many more people smarter than you. you can be like I was glue on a lot of projects, gap filler glue. But boy, I always had a great boss or these scary smart people who could look at something come up with a solution better than I could. I initially was thinking about as I saw it, the solution I would do. And it was more complicated than the one that Buck's solution was more elegant than the one I was visualized, but we worked out one together. So lean into other people, don't be afraid. ⁓ Don't with a blank sheet of paper on anything you do in this business. I would The way I learned to do architecture at Disney was actually in my first five years. would stay late, probably at six or 6.30, before heading for home. And the architectural staff upstairs at WED left, they were working on Epcot, they were working on the World Showcase pavilions. I'd go up to their drafting tables, this is mechanical drafting, parallel bars and the like. drafting machines I would roll out, they had a little tube at the bottom of their drafting table where they put the current work in and I'd roll out those sheets and start looking at it. Then one day, one day a guy stayed he was off the restroom, I was at his desk, I had rolled out the drawing he'd been working on all day, I was looking at it trying to figure out how you do a wood window, how you do a wood door, how you do metal strapping on that wood door. right? I'm looking at he shows up like, sorry I'm really sorry I was just curious what you're working on. That's Got any questions on it? I was to how he did the moldings for the door panels and the like. ⁓ I'll show you. pulls on a box about two feet by one feet. It's full of little full-size pieces of moldings about three inches tall but with a shape. And he goes, let's take a look at this part of the door here. What I did earlier today, I took these three moldings out of this box. I actually took eight out. I started playing with them. I ended up with these three. And when I got the configuration that I wanted, I traced them. I just traced the outline of the moldings on the sheet. Wow. So I know it's not just one piece of wood. It's built up from three pieces of wood. I mean, those simple things, They're gold. John Olson on the Toontown project, I was the project manager for that one. And John Olson, he recently passed. He was an Imagineers Imagineer. He taught so many people, taught me. I never graduated from this school because I could always learn something from them. John, one day we were at Toontown and just come on the project and I'm going, how are we going do all these organic shapes? He goes, Val, where do think you start on this door or window? and I went into a bada bada bada moment he goes find the center of the door find the center of the window which is typically off a column grid all you're doing is calculating the area of a square and once you understand what you're doing boom John was that kind of guy. he made, and he had such craftsmanship and was ⁓ a person, everybody loved him. Everybody would do anything for John and imagineers and engineer. So being a teacher, being a leader that you've got to deal with bad news. By the way, as a leader, whenever start being a leader, first thing you learn is you're ⁓ a problem magnet. Problems just walk in your door every day. That was one thing when I retired in 2016. It caught up with me about three months later. I go, there's something wrong, I'm missing. There's something wrong here. I was missing people bringing me problems. Knock, knock on my door. Hey, and Jane aren't playing together well. I need more money. Knock, knock. I need more time. Knock, knock, I need more time and money. Knock, knock, the executive is available for two weeks to review what we've done. Your problem magnet, not that I solved every problem. I learned, I learned it was interesting. I learned that about a third of the problems went away by themselves. That was, they were never a problem in the first place. They sort of gained a reputation being a problem. They flitter away. A third of the problems were real. And when I pushed people back in, make another pass at the carrier deck on that one, they did, and it worked. And a third of the problems were ones that the team couldn't solve. It needed more money, needed contingency, it an executive approval, it needed something. That's mine. Put that magnet on me. But I put magnets on it by listening to all the problems. And it was interesting too, as a functional manager, more than once, less than a hundred times I have someone walk into my office, hey this project just got green lit I need Peter, and Mary for my project and I'd say well Peter, Paul and Mary are deep into another project right now. No, I only want them, only want them. Peter, Paul and Mary. They've got a milestone release coming up, they're in the middle of it. I can give them to you in probably one, two, three months consecutively. Peter, Paul and Mary. The first few times as a functional manager I really tried to move earth, mountains, to get Peter, Paul, and Mary a project and when I did, guess what happened? That project was canceled a month later. So on those I said, well they're interesting. I do have Tom and Henry here. They're available, they're good. Would not recommend anyone to you that's not good, right? I learned Let's see how real this project is. That only comes after you've moved mountains to get Peter, Paul and Mary and suddenly someone comes back and says, don't need them anymore. Take them back, take them back, take them back. But you know what? That's just life. Nothing's fair. Nothing's easy. ⁓ I always told people that WDI is SEAL Team 6 of the industry because who wants to leave voluntarily? On that point, I was approached times during the 40 years to jump ship. People and said, hey, can I have lunch with you next week? Yeah. And I find out, you know, go to lunch and they pull me into their shop and they say, hey, we're launching this project. want you. ⁓ You're guy for the project. boom, boom. And they throw ⁓ more more title me. And I go back. And in the end I go, I'm on SEAL Team 6. I'm to walk away from SEAL Team 6? ⁓ no, boots first. Absolutely. And every one of those projects, by the way, except for being approached by Starbucks when they were only talking about, we want to grow 400 shops in a year. This is back in 1995. They were not the Starbucks we know today. Again, more title and more money. But in the end, just go, ⁓ the kid in 68 who got the virus and I still have the virus. I'm not leaving, not leaving. But today, people are more fluid. I think that might be because I'm not talking specifically Disney. I think so many companies look at people as expendable. It's a one and done. You're here on a project hire. We may or may not have work for you at the end. But know, those are the circumstances. And also during my time there, which is no longer the case, no one knew us. All these books, all these videos, all these YouTubers, all the LinkedIn's, it was really hard to identify 10 or 12 people working at Imagineer in circa 1978. Mike: was very secret organization. ⁓ was The magic was created within Disney, but the general public wasn't aware of, the val usleys of the world ⁓ Marty Sclarz tons of people who were part of organization who built, like mentioned earlier, these repeat attractions. People travel again and again to see these attractions. And so Val Usle: Yes, yes. Mike: Today it's a little bit different, but back then, I think it was maybe the 90s or early 2000s where, you you had a couple of books come out about Imagineering. wasn't, well known, the people, the creatives that were doing these great things. unfortunate because know some have passed away, recently and it's sad that, some may not have had the chance to have these conversations Val Usle: And we all accepted it. We accepted the fact that we were cathedral builders. So for example, you know, the head architect of Notre Dame, Notre Dame in Paris, probably no, but the thousands of, cast of thousands below them, not. And we were okay with that because there was only one name on the door, Waltz. And he even said that he's no longer Disney. That name became something, right? More than him as a... as a human being. And so, you know, I think all of us in our graduating class of Imagineers, we've accepted it well. cathedral builders that no one really ever knew. And you'll just see our work, but you won't see us. Mike: And that was just part of the, the plan back then. Yeah. but on that topic of, Imagineers today who, and the company philosophy today where, Imagineers aren't staying for, 10, 20, 30 years in the company. Val Usle: Very true. Mike: They're going from this job to that job. more common now than it was then. And I think there was something, ⁓ voluntarily, yes, by choice. They're choosing to leave. I think there was something special about, working with, Walt Disney in those days, but Walt's people who remained with the company for, you know, ⁓ 10, 20 years after he passed away. Val Usle: And voluntarily, have to, yeah, voluntarily. Mike: And to be part of those teams, was something different, something special about that. like you you leave by choice. You were laid off, you had no choice, but you wouldn't leave if you had that choice. Val Usle: The people I knew back then wouldn't. I mean, it was extremely rare that anyone would leave by choice. Really rare. But a few of those things happened, it was rare. look at, and the thing is, if you look at the industry as a whole, whether it's Universal or some of the other design out there, so many of them grew into what they are today, ⁓ capability all of our layoffs. ⁓ You know, when over, I I survived when thousands and thousands of thousands of others were let go and they just didn't stop. They, went down the street or to another state and set up shop. And so the industry that we see today is actually an outgrowth what WED and WDI had to cast off as they went through the sine wave, thousands of people. And so. That sign wave hasn't changed. I'm not just talking about Disney in my opinion, but all the firms out there are faced with the same type of thing. If you have a small shop and large project comes in, hopefully those who are leading it rainmakers and bringing in other work that fills in the back end of it. And by the way, on that risk, I'll say this. I never took... For granted, I might be there 40 plus years with Disney. Never took it for granted. I actually took with me on my last day there the file that I maintained from, I think it started in 1980, back when there were newspapers with classified job ads, Architect needed, owner's representative needed. I tear that out, put this in Manila folder. Companies I saw on engineering news record, architectural record. tear them out, put them in because once you see that first layoff you go, okay, this is real. It's not just an imaginary possibility. And so I just started that file. I maintained it until the day I left. I did purge out ⁓ ads from 1985, of but I kept it current because I never took for granted I would be there. a week from now, a year from now, whatever. Part of that is also just the risk. practicing, right? This not a science. You're practicing what you're doing. And with higher risk and higher expectations, you've got potential to get it wrong. Mike: you the benefit of working with, great managers ⁓ being surrounded by those great minds. And you bring up an example earlier about, being in meetings or with somebody and brainstorming and sharing ideas like, ⁓ I didn't think of it that way. didn't look at it this way. This is a good way to, you know, if this could be done better, let's do it this way. And then you get their ideas. And it kind of changed your way of thinking about a specific project have those other perspectives and suggestions about any project we're working on get that project to completion at high quality, which is probably the most important part of it. Val Usle: one of the things too that cannot be underestimated, the power of, the power of is trust. If you're ever dealing with anyone who's not a truth teller, it's not a lot of fun. But if you're dealing with true tellers or you're dealing with people who become your friends on project and as a project manager and EDL, Euro Disneyland project. And even though I never worked with these fellows before, we became great friends. ⁓ ride engineers, two and ride engineers. And what does that do? Not only the trust, but the friendship. When they come in and say, Val, I've got a problem here. If he's saying he's got a problem, listening. I'm listening really hard. I should listen ⁓ hard to everyone's problem. But with someone that I deeply trust, I'm a friend with, and he's asking for help, you're damn sure I'm going to try to do whatever I can. And those are the types of relationships that can occur on a project. if you're able to maintain some type of intimacy on the project. Projects are temporary businesses, right? They're going to be here for this much time or this much time or this, but they go away. A team is formed, they set up camp, they're nomads. That team at the end of it is going to go away to other projects, maybe leave the company. Consultants will go back to their own shops and the like. So I think one of the biggest things you can do as a leader is foster an intimacy. that you shortcut anybody bringing in a problem with, well, is this really a problem? Do I trust his judgment that this is really a problem? Or is he crying wolf? With so many people when they came in, and again, as a leader, you're a problem magnet, right? They came in, they said there was a problem. I'm already thinking, okay, what are the ways we can help this? Is it money, is it time, it, what is it? What is it they need? Is there an executive above them that is pressuring them that I need to help advocate for them? What is it? It makes it so easy to move on to the solution when you have the trust and the intimacy and the faith in the person sitting across from you. Boy, those jobs are so much fun. And you want to work with those people again and again and again and again because it makes things easy. You're working with friends. Friends are okay to have in this business on a project team. They have your back, you have theirs. Mike: Yeah. Look, you're around these people probably more than you are more than your own family. And you have to build those relationships, those business relationships, professional relationships, personal relationships, and trust your coworkers and your managers. being able to solve a problem, and especially if you're sitting in a meeting, maybe a one hour or two hour meeting and your team goes through a list of problems, jot them down and see maybe I can solve one of them or at least help in solving one of them. you're going to get recognized. and you had the foresight to see, I'm going to bring my A game to this job because I want to stay. I love this job. I don't want to leave. that knowledge, having that foresight to see, I'm bringing my A game no matter what it takes. spent career at Imagineering and the results have proven that you knew what you were talking about. Val Usle: Well, I was blessed. I was blessed in so many ways. As a kid to know exactly what I wanted to do. know, some of the folks today, drift into their 20s, they're not sure what they want to do. I feel bad for them. I knew what I wanted to do from the time I was 13 years old. I was blessed to actually find a path that got me there. And my son, similarly, he'd see me in Tokyo at age six. I'd have the set of... shop drawings on the dining room table after dinner. After bouncing them around, he'd walk over and he'd go, what are you doing? Well, I'm checking these drawings. And then I'd take a piece of trace paper. had a problem, I was working and was a piece of steel that was actually popping out of the facade. And I said, Sam, here's the outline of the facade. This is what the building's gonna look like. And here's the steel structure, the Legos behind it. They're supposed to stay behind it. I laid the... steel structure, aka Lego drawing, on top of the facade. And he saw, well that Lego piece is popping out above the facade. Yes, and that's why I'm going to circle it here in red. Anyway, he couldn't build enough Legos when he was a kid. He went to a technical STEM Academy high school when he was a kid. He was hired as a entry-level CAD draftsman right out of high school for a summer internship. ⁓ Just continued off of there, worked at the park as a ride operator, paid his dues, And I can't emphasize that enough. Make it easier for your manager to keep you from those sign waves, right? Be the great worker all the time, not just, we're on the slope now, I ⁓ better just get game up. Every day you walk in. Mike: that's great advice that you mentioned. pay your dues. there's something that needs to be done, do it. Learn things, educate yourself about the jobs and about the the projects, everything. Because you may be called on one day to solve a problem. And if you're that person, like I said, you're going to stand And that's really important mindset into career that you love. Val Usle: and always be a truth teller. You may think it's gonna be painful, but if you're not a truth teller and you get caught, talk about pain, always be a truth teller. Mike: Absolutely. spent so years, ⁓ decades with company and Imagineering. When it came time to retire, went into that decision Val Usle: So, had over 40 years between working at the park and WDI had 40 plus years in. Got a whole shelf full of the statues and trophies you get every five years or so. And felt right. It felt like the right time. And I didn't myself, I was the lead design manager on the Galaxy's Edge projects. I just didn't see myself taking those to the end. I had a mental timeframe to out ⁓ after the documents done and ⁓ them loose to others to execute. ended up, the opportunity to leave came up sooner for the baby and took advantage of and wanted to do more want to have grandchildren coming on the way. So all of it just led to, know what? This something that I'm to be able to do. I do a little bit of consulting now. ⁓ I a lot of writing. I've got books out on the theme park series, theme park project management, theme park sustainability, theme park charrette, and the most recent one. Theme Park Project Wisdom. We've talked a lot about that today. This has really driven much of this conversation. There's two more books in this series before I retire the series. It's Park's Charette Sequel, which will be an after action report. Theme Park Charette is about a fictional project about five years down the road. And they're trying to do in about two plus years what normally takes today five or six. and it talks about the front end of the project and a charrette that's held to try to test the idea, not only from a creative, but from a scheduling budget and how are we gonna do it standpoint. so ThemePark Threat Seek will be called ThemePark After Action Report. And it's a ⁓ reflection back upon what worked well, what didn't on that project. And then the book is called ThemePark Design Strategies. That's actually probably gonna be the fifth book, not the last. And that will probably come out in the fall. a bit of consulting, ⁓ a of writing, and I Some folks reach out LinkedIn, and with questions, I always welcome them. I'll try to answer them. ⁓ So it's wonderful life, Bailey. Mike: excellent. And where can folks find your books? Val Usle: Amazon. Mike: Excellent, great advice if you're managing projects, if you're part of a that, know, wants to have an effective way to get to the end of the project. you're an expert in that. you've written books on that you have experience in imaginary for so many years. And, you're a great source for that type of advice. Val Usle: So I'm going to talk about the easiest person I ever hired and talk about the easiest person I never hired. So easiest person I never hired, Cal Poly Pomona. Job fair, my alma mater. And a slow day, we're in the lobby there, set up with our card table. and chairs and we've got our banner behind us and a guy walks up he takes his car table chair flips it around his leg over the top of it facing me and says so what do you got for me I go do you know who we are he looks up there and Walt Disney imaginary do you know what we do so we build the theme parks and resorts for the company Have you been to Disneyland? Yes. What's your favorite attraction? Not sure. Pirates? Yeah, Pirates is a good one. What do you like about it? Anyway, for the next 20 minutes, because it was a slow day, he was the only person stopping by at that point, I took him through 20 minutes of rapid-fire questions like I just gave you the examples of. And then I abruptly stopped and said, well, the interview's over. Would you like to the results? Well, yes, I would. You see that other firm over there? I actually don't know them or about their work, but if I want a job from them, I'd be walking up and I'd look at the illustrations they've got there and say, I want to help you do that. I think that's terrific work. I love it. Do you think there's any way I might be able to help you do that? item number one. Item number two, never ever ⁓ treat it like a seller's market. It's always a buyer's market. Always a buyer's market. Only a buyer's market. Fast forward maybe a year or two later. I'm up at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, rival to Cal Poly Pomona. Another job fair. A gal stops by, see her portfolio. Good contemporary work. Not expecting to see... I'm not expecting to see theme park work when I go to a college, right? I want to see... prolificness, good work with prolific quantities, progress work too. ⁓ contemporary work in the portfolio visuals. And I'm reading a resume and says, ⁓ you did a semester in Rome. Yes. How come there's no sketches of what you did in Rome here in your portfolio? Well, they're back in the dormitory. Go get them. What? I'm here until three o'clock. I catch a train at three. Go get the books. OK. She comes back. She has three books. about that thick each, which is the first book. She gives me one. I open up the first couple pages, stiff arm, stiff hand sketching all the different buildings in Rome, which is second book, this one. look at that. The hand's loose now, right? It's not stiff, it's loose. And this is the third book. I flip to the back of it. Now she's using the side of the pencil. Right? She sees dark and light. She doesn't see lines anywhere. She's dark and light. I close the third book, say, when can you start? What? I said, when can you start? You're hiring me? Yeah. Why? You're prolific. And she went on to be the, I think the project architect on the Shanghai Pirates of the Caribbean, right? Two different job fairs, two different candidates. One treated it as a seller's market, the other one prolific. Wonderful. So everybody gets to decide which one of those people they want to be. Make it easy for someone to hire you. Make it easy for someone to keep you. Mike: perfect advice right there, You go to an know the job, make ⁓ them want you to be there. if really want this job and this is where you want to be, do your research, be prolific Val Usle: Every child born today will not know what living without AI was like. Just a huge thing to ponder. Also, I'm giving this advice to students ⁓ the like. When you get a design problem now, go ahead and load the program, the design problem, the program score footage, the building top, all that into an AI engine and ask it to give you three solutions. You're not going to present those solutions in school, but you have to do better than they did. So use that as a baseline that you have to not marginally be, you have to do better than. And anyone that wants to get into other positions where they aren't necessarily drawing, put down the things that you ⁓ you can do ⁓ then ask the AI, any AI engine, what they can do better than you, but what they can't do. And then put emphasis on expanding what they can't do. That's an avenue for you. you're not like competing with other bio-masses. You could be competing with machines. And so find out what they don't do good enough, or well, or at all. They don't mentor people. They can't negotiate a contract. Find those things and excel at them. You'll have to do what they do too, but find the other things that they can't do and put emphasis on those. Because in the end, you have to, when you go in for that interview with the employer, you have to demonstrate how you can add value to their work. They're not a charity. You're there in a commercial sense, you're there to help them make money. And imagine we didn't think about that. We thought about putting smiles on people's face, giving them some relief from the outside world, from the other side of the burn. Right? That was our end state. If they didn't want to come back, we failed. If we didn't exceed their expectations, forget about meeting them. If we didn't exceed about them, we failed. And those were markers that we set for ourselves and made it so easy to work hard. Who wants to work hard on an average idea? Mike: you mentioned and how you use your mind to come up with these great ideas and have that spark. imagination, that creativity start with this one idea and build it into something great, memorable, and exceeding expectations as you mentioned. do you think AI is going to enhance or are we losing part of that with AI? Val Usle: Well, think my son said something interesting the other day. He took a friend over to the National Gallery here in Washington, D.C. as they're looking at, they were looking at medieval art, I think. And he said, when I looked at that piece ⁓ the sculpted wooden frame around it, I saw the other person on the other side of it. And so much work today that's proliferating all over the place. There's a machine on the other side of it, not a human being. I think there will always be a desire for that human touch. And I think AI will be correctly used if you look at it just as another tool in the battlefield that you pick up and use, right? Hand sketching. You're sitting across from a client, right? got a piece of trace paper you tear a piece of trace paper you say well is this what you mean there will always be a place for that there will always be a place for that human to human quick notation Mike: the 1960s Pirates of the Caribbean. Conceived you had haunted mansion and you go into the mid 70s the late 70s with the Epcot attractions And I always wonder if AI existed at that time could AI have created Journey into imagination could AI have created pirates haunted mansion That was created by minds the brain Obviously you're going to be utilizing AI more today and into the future, in generations from now. And I just wonder if AI would have been able to create something like that. Val Usle: all these projects with all the technology we have are taking longer and longer and longer and longer. ⁓ Have you seen the Disney handcrafted, Disneyland handcrafted? Okay, less than two years. Mike: Very true, very true. Spectacular, yes. Val Usle: And these mega projects, whether it's Universal or Disney, these mega projects, five, six plus years. And we've got all this technology us. ⁓ wonder to myself, gosh, ⁓ overdoing somehow? Well, in Theme Park Charette, one of the underlying ways that they're going to shorten this project down to two years as opposed to doing a whole theme park in five is lines of communication. That book mimics what Walt had. There was Walt, there was his art directors, and Admiral Fowler for Disneyland, Direct lines of communication. Today, in whatever corporate organization there is. How many layers are there between the art director, the lead artist, and... person who gets this and the thing is before it gets to the top person this or this each of these layers has one of these each of these layers has one of these each of these layers has one of these until it finally gets down to the art director and gosh you know they're people these upper leaders they're people have people right and those layers they cost coin and they cost clock time tons of it. And so one of the underlying premises of Theme Park Charette, the book, how do you defeat that? And the answer is real simple. You shove away all the other people and you make that executive available to those key leaders. they're not slowing things down by well, will this cost 2 % more than we thought? They're going say just do it. The way you save money on a project is shrink time. pull five years back to three? That's huge. That's huge. And remember, Walt's art directors came out of the film industry. He would call in, ⁓ don't know if this is the case, maybe a Peter Ellenshaw, a Swiss family Robinson. And Walt's at the desk, Peter's on the other side of desk, he throws the script over to him, hey Peter, this is Swiss family Robinson. The show set department's gonna start building sets in three weeks. I need to know what this tree house looks like. Come back to me next week. And Peter goes and works a week on the concept of where the tree house is gonna be, right? And he comes back and sees Walt who made a quick trip to London. Walt goes, oh Peter, I was in London last weekend. I found this incredible organ. I bought it. It's being shipped here. I want you to put it the tree house. Huh? Yeah, put it in the tree house. Figure it out. That shorthand. right? And there's this show set shop. These art directors were so prolific and visual and quick on their feet. And I'm not saying that doesn't exist today in our art directors, but there are lot of layers there. Even at the art director and below, there are a lot of layers. So those layers are just, they're drag. They're human friction, human Mike: Disneyland, I mean, less than two years from a drawing. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Val Usle: From Herbie, from Herbie's ring ring to opening less than two years. Mike: you bring up great points about ⁓ that happens you could do a Disneyland in two years or less today. as we close out, of is a great conversation. Very entertaining. And I think we ⁓ all learned a I learned a lot. And so what's your best piece of advice to any aspiring imagineer or creative interested in going into the theme park business. Val Usle: It starts in high school and starts with getting whatever work you can because any employer wants first of all to know you've got job experience, you showed up on time, you worked and you did it for more than a week. You have a couple months behind your belt. It could be anything. we want to see that your work ethic does not start when you leave college, that it started way before then, that there's a pattern there, that it's not suddenly you've decided to discover what working is like. No, no, we want to see that it starts before. That is probably the richest advice I could offer anyone. Mike: thank you so much for this great conversation and you're welcome back anytime. You always have a seat here. we can always base again and keep educating the world your great books ⁓ and we'll definitely talk soon. Val Usle: Well, thank you, Mike. Appreciate lending your audience.