Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Complete Cream Chronicles – Straight From Ginger Baker’s Daughter Nettie [Episode 372]

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The Complete Cream Chronicles – Straight From Ginger Baker’s Daughter Nettie [Episode 372] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: They say, are the most horrible person. And that's because
0:04
Speaker 1: you know, when he was an old man, he was
0:05
Speaker 1: suffering from dementia and from elder abuse. He was not
0:09
Speaker 1: a happy person as an old person. He was dead,
0:11
Speaker 1: he was geriatric. He didn't know what was going on.
0:14
Speaker 1: He was being exploited by his manager, by people who
0:17
Speaker 1: were trying to make money out of him. Often he
0:20
Speaker 1: couldn't even understand what people were saying to him. I
0:23
Speaker 1: think if you read this book, you understand him as
0:26
Speaker 1: a young man and as a completely different person who
0:30
Speaker 1: were totally bummed.
0:31
Speaker 2: Rock and roll.
0:33
Speaker 1: I mean, I leave you you're reading little hands.
0:35
Speaker 2: Since it's time to rock.
0:36
Speaker 3: And roll, roll out, I totally booked.
0:45
Speaker 2: Welcome back to book Down Rock, the podcast for those
0:47
Speaker 2: about to read and rock. A'm Eric Sanitch. Before we
0:50
Speaker 2: get started. If you want to support the podcasts and
0:53
Speaker 2: get episodes commercial free, sign up for the backstage pass
0:56
Speaker 2: from Petroon for just five dollars a month. Link in
0:58
Speaker 2: the show notes, or go to book Down Row All
1:01
Speaker 2: right now under our guests Neddie Baker. Neddie is the
1:04
Speaker 2: eldest daughter of legendary cream drummer Ginger Baker and was
1:08
Speaker 2: there throughout every stage of his remarkable career. She collaborated
1:12
Speaker 2: with her father on his twenty ten autobiography, Ginger Baker
1:16
Speaker 2: Hell Raiser, and has since written several books of her own,
1:19
Speaker 2: including Tales of a rock Star's Daughter, More Tales of
1:22
Speaker 2: a Rockstar's Daughter and Full Cream. Her latest book, Cream,
1:26
Speaker 2: chronicled documents every live performance by the iconic band Cream,
1:31
Speaker 2: featuring her father alongside Jack Bruce and Eric Clapton. Welcome
1:34
Speaker 2: to the podcast, Nettie, Hi, Hello everyone. You had a
1:38
Speaker 2: front row seat to your father's life and career. How
1:40
Speaker 2: old were you when you first went on the road
1:43
Speaker 2: or saw your dad performing concert?
1:45
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was before Cream because he was
1:48
Speaker 1: in the Grand Bond organization. That's when I first met
1:52
Speaker 1: Jack Bruce and obviously they were in that band together,
1:56
Speaker 1: and so I would be if I've seen those sort
1:58
Speaker 1: of shows, that's when I'm the Moody Blues and things
2:01
Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, I was out and about before Cream.
2:04
Speaker 1: And so you know, Cream formed when I was five
2:08
Speaker 1: and a half.
2:09
Speaker 2: And how often were you on the road with your dad?
2:12
Speaker 2: Was it so we.
2:14
Speaker 1: Went on the road. Yeah, we went on the road
2:17
Speaker 1: for the first Cream tour in Boston, so that was
2:20
Speaker 1: October sixty seven, and then we were for the sort
2:26
Speaker 1: of Pronultimate tour in sixty eight, and then we were
2:28
Speaker 1: on the Goodbye Tour, and then obviously I went on
2:31
Speaker 1: the Blind Faith tour as well.
2:33
Speaker 2: When did you start thinking, you know what, I should
2:35
Speaker 2: really write books about Cream and about my dad and ever.
2:40
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd written my books and then my dad
2:43
Speaker 1: contacted me and asked me if I do the autobiography
2:46
Speaker 1: with him. But my two books hadn't come out yet,
2:48
Speaker 1: so I thought, I mean, I'd already done an English degree.
2:51
Speaker 1: I've got a BA first and a master's so and
2:54
Speaker 1: then you know, I was so I was interested in
2:57
Speaker 1: doing something. And then he said, can you do mine
3:00
Speaker 1: with me? So I did that and I thought, oh,
3:01
Speaker 1: that'd be good. That will help me get my own stuff.
3:04
Speaker 1: But I waited another ten years till I found my
3:07
Speaker 1: publisher who could get mine out because people said, oh,
3:11
Speaker 1: no one's ever heard of you, so who cares. Obviously
3:15
Speaker 1: they've done really well. And then my publishers asked me
3:17
Speaker 1: to do Full Cream because they thought that would be
3:19
Speaker 1: nice to do. A copy table very limited. I think
3:22
Speaker 1: there's like there were three copies left yesterday of the
3:25
Speaker 1: thousand print we did, so that was always going to
3:28
Speaker 1: be a limited book. And then they suddenly said to me,
3:33
Speaker 1: would you like to do a book on every show
3:36
Speaker 1: Cream ever did? And so I thought, oh, okay, And
3:41
Speaker 1: you know, I'm trained to research, so it was actually
3:43
Speaker 1: bringing in the stuff that I've been trained to do
3:46
Speaker 1: academically onto that. So I thought, yeah, okay, I'll give
3:50
Speaker 1: it a go, and there we are. That's what happened.
3:53
Speaker 2: I wish I had a chance, but that was a
3:54
Speaker 2: long time broadcaster and writer, and I always wanted to
3:57
Speaker 2: document his life and do something for him, but we
4:00
Speaker 2: never had the chance to do that. I wonder how
4:03
Speaker 2: special that was for you to be able to collaborate
4:05
Speaker 2: with him for his book.
4:07
Speaker 1: Well, I mean most of it I knew already, and
4:10
Speaker 1: there wasn't much that I didn't already know. So yeah,
4:16
Speaker 1: it was well, it was interesting. It was great fun,
4:20
Speaker 1: but it certainly was interesting. Yeah, because I've been around
4:24
Speaker 1: him when I was a teenager. I spent a lot
4:26
Speaker 1: of time with him as my books document, so you know,
4:29
Speaker 1: I knew a lot of what had happened already, so
4:32
Speaker 1: I had the bit of the heads up.
4:34
Speaker 2: There in the introduction you see. The idea for the
4:36
Speaker 2: book actually came from your publisher asking if you could
4:39
Speaker 2: document Cream's gigs, and at first glance, documenting the shows
4:43
Speaker 2: of a band that existed for only a couple of years, yeah,
4:46
Speaker 2: that's simple, right, But you describe it as a morass
4:48
Speaker 2: of confusion. What made it so complicated because it's.
4:52
Speaker 1: Never really Cream just had to build a myth around it.
4:55
Speaker 1: And I think it happened on the Goodbye tour the journalist,
4:58
Speaker 1: particularly in the United States States, because they'd left England behind,
5:02
Speaker 1: they left their UK fans, and things just became. They
5:06
Speaker 1: became so massively famous that you know, people were saying, oh,
5:10
Speaker 1: you have to be cool, you have to say you've
5:12
Speaker 1: seen Cream so quickly and then they were just gone,
5:17
Speaker 1: and I think people just thought, well, how can that happen?
5:19
Speaker 1: And they made up stuff and so the myth became
5:23
Speaker 1: stories about Cream but never actually docum. I mean people
5:27
Speaker 1: have said they've done it, written a book about Cream.
5:29
Speaker 1: They were I couldn't They're incomprehensible. I couldn't even understand
5:33
Speaker 1: what was going on in half of the books written
5:35
Speaker 1: about them, because they followed no chronological order. Things were missing.
5:40
Speaker 1: They hadn't researched, they'd just done things that they'd heard
5:43
Speaker 1: from people. So that's what made it complicated. And then
5:46
Speaker 1: finding things that happened over sixty years ago or sixty
5:50
Speaker 1: years ago, you know, finding where the concerts were. You'd
5:55
Speaker 1: have to try and find newspaper reviews and things like that,
5:57
Speaker 1: because often you'll get a gig or be advertised there'll
5:59
Speaker 1: be at it, but they didn't. They didn't go. It
6:02
Speaker 1: was canceled or things like that, and it was finding
6:05
Speaker 1: out and sometimes there were like three on one day
6:08
Speaker 1: and they were playing all nighters. So the amount of
6:10
Speaker 1: work they did was phenomenal, two to three shows a day,
6:14
Speaker 1: going somewhere, them playing another club at two o'clock in
6:16
Speaker 1: the morning. So was it that day or the next
6:18
Speaker 1: day or the day moore? How long did it turn
6:21
Speaker 1: to drive there? Could they have done this? And you
6:24
Speaker 1: know it's all very well. Loads of people said, well,
6:25
Speaker 1: I was there Asthama and they weren't there, because they
6:28
Speaker 1: definitely one hundred percent I've proven they weren't there. They
6:31
Speaker 1: go nuts. So the whole thing was quite an experience.
6:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine one of the most vivid moments
6:38
Speaker 2: you write about in that opening chapter is your memory
6:40
Speaker 2: of coming home and seeing ginger Jack and Eric playing
6:43
Speaker 2: together in your living room. What do you remember about
6:45
Speaker 2: that day?
6:46
Speaker 1: Well, that was the first time you know that they
6:48
Speaker 1: were ever they ever played together in our living room
6:53
Speaker 1: in Nisden, which they all have talked about separately. Well,
6:58
Speaker 1: I mean I was just a child cu they home
7:00
Speaker 1: from school, so I mean I was used to music
7:02
Speaker 1: being in my in my life, so just like amps
7:04
Speaker 1: and they were. But they were really fired up. That
7:07
Speaker 1: was the thing that the kids outside. There were fields outside,
7:10
Speaker 1: and they'd seen kids outside dancing to the music and
7:13
Speaker 1: they thought, wow, this must be good. So they Yeah,
7:16
Speaker 1: they're just very very enthusiastic about you know what what
7:21
Speaker 1: they what They formed.
7:22
Speaker 2: Before the official debut of Cream at the Windsor Jazz
7:26
Speaker 2: and Blues Festival, they play what you call a sort
7:28
Speaker 2: of secret debut at the Twisted Wheel in Manchester. Why
7:31
Speaker 2: did the band want to test themselves in front of
7:33
Speaker 2: an audience first before making it official?
7:36
Speaker 1: Sure whether they definitely did or not. I think the
7:39
Speaker 1: spot came up because Disco Tech's or whatever his name
7:42
Speaker 1: was canceled, so there was an opening there and they'd
7:45
Speaker 1: all played at that club separately several times, so they
7:48
Speaker 1: knew the club and I think, you know, I don't
7:51
Speaker 1: know whether it was the manager or whether it was
7:53
Speaker 1: them or whatever they but they just thought, yeah, let's
7:55
Speaker 1: let's go and do this gig. But it was advertised,
7:58
Speaker 1: and they already had their name. So a lot of
8:02
Speaker 1: people say, oh, it wasn't advertised, which it was, a
8:05
Speaker 1: lot of people say no, they never even had a
8:08
Speaker 1: name until months later. They did because Eric named them
8:11
Speaker 1: that first day and said, hey, man, we're the Cream.
8:14
Speaker 1: Means we're the cream of music. He didn't mean we're
8:17
Speaker 1: the cream of the crop. He didn't mean we're the best.
8:19
Speaker 1: He just meant, wow, we're the cream of music, you know.
8:23
Speaker 1: So they were already called the Cream, but you could
8:26
Speaker 1: also call them cream, and they were called both for
8:29
Speaker 1: the whole time as well. People go nutty about that one,
8:32
Speaker 1: but I'm going to assure you it's true.
8:35
Speaker 2: July thirty first, eighteen sixty six, at the Windsor Jazz
8:38
Speaker 2: and Blues Festival, considered the official debut, you described the
8:41
Speaker 2: Balloon meadow turning into a muddy field that looked like
8:44
Speaker 2: something out of World War One, and Ginger slipped in
8:46
Speaker 2: the mud, just before going on stage, ruined his pristine
8:49
Speaker 2: white trousers. Just how rough were the conditions that day?
8:53
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a lot. I found a lot,
8:54
Speaker 1: you know, and you could see in the book. I
8:56
Speaker 1: found a lot of reports about how wet it was,
8:58
Speaker 1: and you know, the bandwagons were skidding and people were
9:03
Speaker 1: falling over. So yeah, it was a very wet day.
9:05
Speaker 1: But I don't think the crowdcare. They had their max
9:08
Speaker 1: and umbrellas and they won a fantastic time seeing the
9:11
Speaker 1: new band.
9:12
Speaker 2: And one of the myths is how many songs they
9:15
Speaker 2: actually played. Some later recollections say it was just three numbers,
9:18
Speaker 2: but contemporary reports suggest a much longer set. What did
9:22
Speaker 2: your research reveal about that?
9:24
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it can't have been just three, but
9:27
Speaker 1: certainly they said a lot. A lot of the early
9:30
Speaker 1: gigs they did say, sorry, we haven't got any more numbers,
9:33
Speaker 1: so we're just going to jam. So they didn't have
9:35
Speaker 1: a huge amount. But if they did a forty minute set,
9:38
Speaker 1: they only had more than three songs. So I'm thinking
9:41
Speaker 1: there were definitely more than three, oh you know, four, five, six,
9:45
Speaker 1: but not a huge amount. And so they you know,
9:48
Speaker 1: they sort of played around with different blues they knew
9:51
Speaker 1: and jammed and things like that.
9:53
Speaker 2: So yeah, early sixty seven Cream played Brian Epstein's Sundays
9:56
Speaker 2: at the Seville Series and one of the fascinating details
10:00
Speaker 2: is who was in the audience. Keith Moon was there,
10:02
Speaker 2: Jimmy Hendricks was there, John Mayol was there. And there's
10:05
Speaker 2: a great story about Keith Moon. He's leaning out so
10:07
Speaker 2: far out of his box applauding Ginger Solo that someone
10:10
Speaker 2: had to hold under his ankles. Quite a lineup of
10:13
Speaker 2: rock royalty just watching the band. What does that say
10:16
Speaker 2: about the band's reputation by that point.
10:18
Speaker 1: I think Rod Gunnell Rick Gunnell were the brothers owned
10:22
Speaker 1: the Flamingo Club. He said, you know, in sixty six
10:25
Speaker 1: sixty seven, Cream were the top, the top band to
10:27
Speaker 1: book in the clubs, to get people in. So they
10:31
Speaker 1: really were the thing, you know, the new thing then
10:33
Speaker 1: that everybody knew and everybody wanted to go there. They
10:37
Speaker 1: were sort of the musicians musicians band. You know, all
10:41
Speaker 1: these people were also their friends. So yeah, it says
10:44
Speaker 1: a lot about the way other musicians were viewing them
10:47
Speaker 1: at the time, as well as the audience, who also
10:51
Speaker 1: noted that by.
10:53
Speaker 2: Late sixty seven, they were becoming a massively that an
10:56
Speaker 2: exhausting touring schedule. The press reporter that your dad collapsed
10:59
Speaker 2: in and doctors suspected and also but the reality was
11:02
Speaker 2: far more complicated. How serious was the situation when Jack
11:06
Speaker 2: Bruce and his wife found ginger and rushed in to
11:09
Speaker 2: the hospital.
11:10
Speaker 1: There was a lot of pressure going on, and there
11:11
Speaker 1: had been a bad review in The Melody Maker that day.
11:15
Speaker 1: I don't know whether he saw it or not. I
11:17
Speaker 1: just sort of speculated a bit there, but he he
11:21
Speaker 1: found that he had problems at home. My mum was
11:23
Speaker 1: newly pregnant. She wanted to move. We were still in
11:26
Speaker 1: this in the tiny house where you know, the band
11:31
Speaker 1: had formed, which was a one bedroom apartment. You know,
11:33
Speaker 1: it was tiny and rented, so we hadn't even bought it.
11:37
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of pressure at home. He
11:39
Speaker 1: was having pressure with you know, it was his band,
11:42
Speaker 1: but then things became more pressured when they made the
11:45
Speaker 1: albums and things like that, other people getting involved. So
11:48
Speaker 1: you know, he hadn't taken He had been a heroin addict,
11:51
Speaker 1: but he was clean through the beginning of Cream and
11:54
Speaker 1: then he met unfortunately met a heroin addict that he
11:58
Speaker 1: knew at the BBC who was part of one of
12:01
Speaker 1: the Bigges sick bands, and he gave them a turn
12:05
Speaker 1: on the He overdosed because he obviously wasn't used to it. Yeah,
12:09
Speaker 1: so then he got rushed to hospital and that was
12:11
Speaker 1: the right drama. Jack puts it in the wrong place,
12:14
Speaker 1: but I've got it in the right place.
12:16
Speaker 2: The Winterland Ballroom and the Filmore West shows in San
12:18
Speaker 2: Francisco late February into March of sixty eighth, those are
12:21
Speaker 2: considered the pinnacle of Cream's live powers, catching them at
12:25
Speaker 2: the height of their skills, their improvisational skills. What do
12:29
Speaker 2: you think was about that city and its audiences that
12:32
Speaker 2: connected so strongly with Cream.
12:34
Speaker 1: I think they just were in the right place at
12:36
Speaker 1: the right time, and they said they had a fantastic time.
12:39
Speaker 1: Most of the audiences in America said they couldn't believe
12:42
Speaker 1: that the bands they were used to listening to just
12:46
Speaker 1: didn't have that standard of musicianship, and they were quite
12:50
Speaker 1: blown away by it, which is what you know. My
12:53
Speaker 1: dad said, we went there to teach the Yanks how
12:56
Speaker 1: to play, and I think that did happen. I think
13:00
Speaker 1: the audience were also, you know, summer in love everyone
13:03
Speaker 1: was tuning in, turning on and all of that malarkey.
13:06
Speaker 1: So I think that they it was just caught the
13:09
Speaker 1: zeitgeist at the right time, and that's how it really
13:13
Speaker 1: took off.
13:14
Speaker 2: Tom Dowd produced those live albums. He just seemed to
13:17
Speaker 2: have some certain magic there with capturing the live essence
13:22
Speaker 2: of bands.
13:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, my dad rated Tom Dowd. He thought that the
13:25
Speaker 1: way he put everything together was really amazing, and you know,
13:29
Speaker 1: contemporary he really rated him, and he talked well of
13:34
Speaker 1: him also much later, so I think he did rate
13:37
Speaker 1: what Tom did, Yes, very much.
13:39
Speaker 2: So there was some kind of altercation between Cream's camp
13:42
Speaker 2: and promoter Bill Graham, which resulted in the band never
13:44
Speaker 2: playing those venues again. What do we actually know about
13:47
Speaker 2: what happened?
13:48
Speaker 1: There are so many different stories and they're absolutely hilarious.
13:52
Speaker 1: But I mean, I do remember being somewhere where I
13:56
Speaker 1: am pretty, but I can't placed exactly where it was.
13:59
Speaker 1: But I remember a big argument that he did have
14:01
Speaker 1: with Bill. I don't know whether it was to do
14:05
Speaker 1: with you know, and it could have been that Bill
14:08
Speaker 1: wasn't going to pay the amount Stigod wanted. But there
14:11
Speaker 1: seems to be also Ben Palmer mentioned something about, you know,
14:15
Speaker 1: there was a problem with a running order. I just
14:18
Speaker 1: don't feel I think they just didn't feel they were
14:21
Speaker 1: getting the right sort of respect for the amount of
14:23
Speaker 1: punters they were pulling in. And therefore, you know, he
14:26
Speaker 1: was quite an abrasive character. So if you put him
14:28
Speaker 1: up against my dad, that's not going to go very well. So, yeah,
14:34
Speaker 1: it's a mystery, but I think it was probably a
14:37
Speaker 1: few different things that all contributed to one argument, and
14:41
Speaker 1: that was it.
14:42
Speaker 2: Going back to the fan responses, one fan recalled that
14:45
Speaker 2: after one performance, the crowd was just staring at each
14:47
Speaker 2: other in stun silence because the band was so good.
14:50
Speaker 2: Did you find many accounts like that from those in
14:52
Speaker 2: attendive that's those shows? And how did you go about
14:55
Speaker 2: getting those people just reach out to you? Did you
14:57
Speaker 2: go on social media saying, hey, I'm looking for people
15:00
Speaker 2: were there, let me know what you remember.
15:02
Speaker 1: Yes, I went on social media and asked everyone. But
15:06
Speaker 1: the thing you have to be wary of is after
15:09
Speaker 1: a long time, you know, memories aren't always right. But
15:12
Speaker 1: so what you have to do is you have to
15:14
Speaker 1: find out as many accounts agree with each other, then
15:20
Speaker 1: you then you're getting somewhere near the truth, and there
15:22
Speaker 1: were a lot of accounts of that sort of stunned silence,
15:25
Speaker 1: sort of as that it was a religious experience and
15:30
Speaker 1: that had come you know, I remember hearing that, you know,
15:33
Speaker 1: decades ago, so I think, you know, it can be said,
15:36
Speaker 1: and I think people have forgotten that. So that's I
15:38
Speaker 1: think the book brings it back to what it was
15:42
Speaker 1: like at the time. People don't now it's overrated, is
15:45
Speaker 1: there is that, Oh it's boring, but that at the time,
15:48
Speaker 1: that's what people wanted, what was selling, what was you know,
15:53
Speaker 1: into the stratosphere, and that's I think what the book
15:56
Speaker 1: really brings people back into sixty six, sixty ses, even
16:00
Speaker 1: sixty eight, so they can be there.
16:04
Speaker 2: The book is titled Cream Chronicled. It came up March twentieth,
16:08
Speaker 2: so you can find wherever books are sold. Our guest
16:10
Speaker 2: is Nettie Baker. Documents every live performance by Cream and
16:14
Speaker 2: by the summer of sixty eight, Cream announced that they
16:16
Speaker 2: would be splitting up, which shocked a lot of fans,
16:19
Speaker 2: and many people assumed that the breakoup was mainly about
16:21
Speaker 2: personality clashes between the band members, but Eric Clapton, leader,
16:25
Speaker 2: said that was only a small part of the story.
16:27
Speaker 2: What else is going on.
16:28
Speaker 1: I think the clashes were, you know, weren't anything like
16:32
Speaker 1: you know, and many times in the book, Eric says,
16:34
Speaker 1: oh we have around it. We all make up, you know,
16:37
Speaker 1: we love each other. So it was definitely the amount
16:40
Speaker 1: of work that they had to do. They're just overwork.
16:43
Speaker 1: They never got breaks. They never got a chance to
16:45
Speaker 1: write any other new music, which Eric also said was upsetting.
16:50
Speaker 1: So they never got a chance to do anything that
16:52
Speaker 1: normal bands did because they were just being pushed and
16:55
Speaker 1: pushed and pushed. In fact, when they went a wall
16:57
Speaker 1: is when they said they were kind of extended all
17:00
Speaker 1: my dad said, he felt, you've been on tour for
17:02
Speaker 1: a year. You know. It's just like it was just
17:04
Speaker 1: far too much because no one was expecting it to
17:07
Speaker 1: be that big. So when it was that big, everyone thought, well,
17:10
Speaker 1: let's make as much money as we can out of it.
17:12
Speaker 1: And of course Eric was quite young then, and well
17:15
Speaker 1: they were all three very young. But you know, they
17:18
Speaker 1: got stressed by it. I think, just like nowadays, people
17:21
Speaker 1: don't do that sort of thing.
17:23
Speaker 2: It's interesting. Ginger seemed surprised the decision to split came
17:27
Speaker 2: so early, and he thought the band still had a
17:29
Speaker 2: lot of life left in it. Jack Bruce suggested the
17:32
Speaker 2: band might have survived if each member maybe pursued outside
17:35
Speaker 2: projects while still keeping Cream together. Do you think that
17:38
Speaker 2: could have worked?
17:39
Speaker 1: I do think it could have worked, because it did
17:41
Speaker 1: with a lot of other bands, And I think if
17:44
Speaker 1: it had been properly approached, it could have worked. And
17:47
Speaker 1: I think that's what they were trying to do. And
17:49
Speaker 1: my dad and Stickwood, for certain, wanted it to continue.
17:55
Speaker 1: And I think all three of them were very sad
17:57
Speaker 1: when it ended. I don't think that's really what they wanted.
18:00
Speaker 1: But then it was sort of like, oh, well, I
18:02
Speaker 1: think I'm going to leave. Okay, yes, so am I?
18:03
Speaker 1: And then oh do you said it? You know, young people.
18:07
Speaker 1: They weren't even thirty, so you know, everyone knows what're young,
18:10
Speaker 1: especially when everyone's drinking and smoking lights of pot and stuff.
18:15
Speaker 1: You know, you're not really that rational. And then the
18:17
Speaker 1: management didn't seem to be able to hold it together,
18:22
Speaker 1: which is is quite extraordinary, but that's what happened.
18:26
Speaker 2: The Royal Albert Hall Farewell concert ended up becoming two
18:29
Speaker 2: shows because the first sold out so quickly. In the book,
18:32
Speaker 2: you made clear that there had been real efforts behind
18:35
Speaker 2: the scenes to keep the band together. How close did
18:37
Speaker 2: Cream actually come to surviving past eighteen sixty eight.
18:41
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. It's difficult to say
18:45
Speaker 1: from what I could find out, but I do think,
18:49
Speaker 1: you know, Eric seems you know that no one had
18:51
Speaker 1: enough information, and I suppose pre Internet, and you know
18:55
Speaker 1: that people didn't really know what was going on when
18:57
Speaker 1: they were somewhere else that clearly now, I mean, you
19:00
Speaker 1: could talk on the phone, but you know, so, I
19:03
Speaker 1: think Eric seems surprised that the fans in England still remembered.
19:07
Speaker 1: He was always very keen on what the public thought
19:11
Speaker 1: and the others. They obviously didn't want the band to end,
19:16
Speaker 1: So I just think I don't know how close it came.
19:18
Speaker 1: They did try, they did try, and I just think
19:24
Speaker 1: they probably didn't have enough discussion about it.
19:26
Speaker 2: You push back against that old idea that Cream ended
19:29
Speaker 2: simply because the members couldn't get along. After studying that
19:32
Speaker 2: final period so closely, what do you think people still
19:35
Speaker 2: misunderstand about the breakup.
19:37
Speaker 1: Made mis understand the dynamic, and they've all they've done
19:41
Speaker 1: is heard elephant whispers. They've heard things, and I've heard
19:45
Speaker 1: where from. I mean I went to the sources and
19:48
Speaker 1: I couldn't find any contemporary reports of fighting on stage
19:52
Speaker 1: at all. I mean, I was there when he kicked
19:55
Speaker 1: the door of the Gorham Hotel. I'm they never said
19:58
Speaker 1: that they didn't have an argument now and again, but
20:00
Speaker 1: what bands don't have arguments and didn't have arguments in
20:04
Speaker 1: the sixties, lots of them, sure, and so yeah, it's
20:08
Speaker 1: just a thing that people And of course my dad
20:10
Speaker 1: and Jack worked together from nineteen sixty two to two
20:13
Speaker 1: thousand and eight consistently, so I mean if they hate it,
20:17
Speaker 1: I mean they were on tour together, Jack. You know
20:19
Speaker 1: that we socialized, We knew them, you know. It's it
20:23
Speaker 1: to say that they were a complete and they couldn't
20:25
Speaker 1: even be in the same room. Was just absolutely it's
20:30
Speaker 1: been made up. But people want that. I don't know
20:32
Speaker 1: why people want that. They want to believe that, but
20:35
Speaker 1: it's not true.
20:36
Speaker 2: Today they call it clickbeat and videos and on the internet,
20:40
Speaker 2: you know, but back then it's the same thing. I mean,
20:42
Speaker 2: the media is looking for something that's sensational because that's
20:45
Speaker 2: what people want. The Kaream walked back on to the
20:48
Speaker 2: Royal Albert Hall stage in May two thousand and five,
20:51
Speaker 2: thirty seven years after that farewell concert. How electric was
20:54
Speaker 2: the atmosphere in the hall that night?
20:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was amazing, It really was. Yeah, once in
20:59
Speaker 1: a lifetime experience, it was. It was great people, you know,
21:04
Speaker 1: people cried, they were just so happy. It was great.
21:07
Speaker 2: Some reviewers even suggested the band seem to enjoy themselves
21:10
Speaker 2: more than they had in the sixties. Did you notice
21:13
Speaker 2: a different energy between the three musicians.
21:16
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that they did because they knew what
21:18
Speaker 1: they'd had and you know, I think that first there's
21:22
Speaker 1: first shows at the Royal ball in two thousand and five,
21:25
Speaker 1: there were just really over the moon and realized how
21:29
Speaker 1: great it had been, and you know, what they what
21:33
Speaker 1: they'd made, really what they created, and how much people
21:36
Speaker 1: still loved it. So yeah, I think it was. It
21:41
Speaker 1: was pretty special that reunion.
21:43
Speaker 2: For you, any shows personally that stand out for you
21:46
Speaker 2: that her favorite show is favorite Gigs?
21:49
Speaker 1: Definitely the reunion the two thousand and five was. It
21:53
Speaker 1: was like being transported back to childhood. But I remember
21:56
Speaker 1: being in a cafe Go go or wherever it was,
22:00
Speaker 1: seeing you know, dance into cream in one of those
22:03
Speaker 1: New York clubs. Whatever, I can remember that, and so
22:06
Speaker 1: to have actually been there, that's pretty cool, I reckon. So, yeah,
22:10
Speaker 1: I think that one will do for me.
22:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, last question. You witnessed the band's story from
22:14
Speaker 2: the inside, from those early days to the reunion decades later.
22:17
Speaker 2: When you think about Cream, now, what will you remember most.
22:21
Speaker 1: I feel sad actually, because it's you know, things went
22:27
Speaker 1: badly wrong for my dad. You know, he didn't really
22:31
Speaker 1: pick up on that. I mean, it went wrong for
22:34
Speaker 1: all three of them, but they recovered in different ways. Obvious.
22:36
Speaker 1: The Eric picked up quite quick and became an icon,
22:41
Speaker 1: but for my dad it didn't really you know, he
22:45
Speaker 1: sort of he lost his way and then he went
22:48
Speaker 1: to Africa, which was probably a terrible mistake. And he's
22:52
Speaker 1: not really credited for bringing that sort of African music
22:56
Speaker 1: into the mainstream either. They've forgotten. They just say, oh,
22:59
Speaker 1: felakut Tony Allen. They don't even mention that it was
23:02
Speaker 1: my dad that brought it there. I mean, you know,
23:04
Speaker 1: so it was obviously a mistake to get involved in that.
23:08
Speaker 1: He never got the right management, he never got the
23:11
Speaker 1: right people, and then you know, it's resulted in us
23:16
Speaker 1: spend the year researching a book for no money because
23:20
Speaker 1: we haven't done very well at all, so it hasn't
23:24
Speaker 1: you know. It makes me feel sad that it's that
23:26
Speaker 1: mega and I'm not living in a mansion. No, it
23:29
Speaker 1: does make me cross.
23:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, your dad is so respected though among musicians
23:35
Speaker 2: in the fans. Is there anything misunderstood about him? I
23:37
Speaker 2: mean there's been a lot, yeah, documentaries written about them.
23:42
Speaker 3: Well yes, I mean the main thing is, you know,
23:44
Speaker 3: they say are the most horrible person ever, and that's
23:47
Speaker 3: because you know, when he was an old man, he
23:50
Speaker 3: was suffering from dementia and from elder abuse.
23:52
Speaker 1: He was under Social Services safeguarding several times. He was
23:56
Speaker 1: not a happy person as an old person. He was deaf,
23:59
Speaker 1: he was not he was geriatric. He didn't know what
24:02
Speaker 1: was going on. He was being exploited by his manager,
24:06
Speaker 1: by people who were trying to make money out of him.
24:09
Speaker 1: And so that's why he came across because often he
24:12
Speaker 1: couldn't even understand what people were saying to him. The
24:15
Speaker 1: Chad Smith thing. He didn't know who Chad Smith was.
24:18
Speaker 1: He had no idea what was going on, He had
24:21
Speaker 1: no guidance. So I think, yeah, if you read this book,
24:26
Speaker 1: you understand him. As a young man and as a
24:28
Speaker 1: completely different person who and a lot of people have
24:33
Speaker 1: good stories, but again it's you know, clickbait on the internet.
24:37
Speaker 1: And you know the terrible photographs for his album Jazz Album,
24:41
Speaker 1: why that they let out. He didn't like them. We
24:44
Speaker 1: didn't like them. We said to them, no, no, no,
24:46
Speaker 1: he could have done He did great art. He could
24:48
Speaker 1: have done art for the album. He did the sound
24:51
Speaker 1: of sixty five Graham Bond album that he did that cover.
24:54
Speaker 1: I painted that cover. So yeah, it's just a disaster. Really,
25:00
Speaker 1: people have got the complete wrong end of the stick
25:03
Speaker 1: about him. Really, I mean, he wasn't easy, but he
25:07
Speaker 1: was a fully rounded human being. Not the story. Oh
25:11
Speaker 1: he was arrogant, he was this, he was that. You know,
25:14
Speaker 1: he was good friends with John Bonham. John Bonham worshiped him.
25:17
Speaker 1: You know that film was cut and edited very very
25:20
Speaker 1: cleverly too, and you know he Jay made a good film.
25:24
Speaker 1: It was Jay's film. My dad was paid for it,
25:27
Speaker 1: and the person who was with was they were asking
25:29
Speaker 1: for more money because they didn't have any. So the
25:32
Speaker 1: film was Jay's film. So Jay did the film how
25:34
Speaker 1: he wanted and it did well, but it's not accurate.
25:39
Speaker 2: Well, that's why you're doing a great thing by chronicling
25:42
Speaker 2: your dad's life career Cream. Are there more in store?
25:47
Speaker 2: Do you want to write more about Cream? No?
25:50
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, there's someone else doing a
25:52
Speaker 1: blind faithbook at the moment, and I have been in
25:55
Speaker 1: touch with him, but I haven't. I'm quite worried about
25:59
Speaker 1: how that might turn out. Help in my mind, Yeah,
26:02
Speaker 1: that would be quite good, But I mean, there's plenty
26:05
Speaker 1: of other projects I'd like to do. I think, you know,
26:07
Speaker 1: I feel quite proud of this that I have. I'd
26:11
Speaker 1: like someone to I've got all the Super eight still,
26:14
Speaker 1: you know, and I want someone to buy that. You
26:17
Speaker 1: know what I've seen it. It's Cream on tour and
26:20
Speaker 1: I want to do I'd like to do it. Maybe
26:22
Speaker 1: do I'd like Netflix maybe to do that and have
26:25
Speaker 1: a narration over it with music or whatever you could
26:28
Speaker 1: use that. I'd like them. Somebody maybe could do a
26:31
Speaker 1: proper Cream documentary, an accurate one. Be a consultant on that. Hey,
26:36
Speaker 1: you know, that would be great. But whether it will
26:38
Speaker 1: happen or not, I don't know.
26:39
Speaker 2: Fingers criss right there and putting fingers cross right in
26:42
Speaker 2: front of camp caream chronicled out. Now you can find
26:44
Speaker 2: it wherever books are sold. Look for at Junior's bookstore.
26:47
Speaker 1: The best thing they can do go to their bookstore
26:49
Speaker 1: and get them to order it in.
26:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, it won't.
26:52
Speaker 1: Be on the shelves. It won't be on the shelves.
26:55
Speaker 1: They have to order it in. So get it on
26:57
Speaker 1: Amazon online. You've got it on Kindle now as well. Well.
27:00
Speaker 1: If you want to get it from your bookstore, go
27:02
Speaker 1: to the bookstore and they can order it in for you.
27:05
Speaker 2: Okay, great, great, And yeah, if people want to find
27:07
Speaker 2: their local independent bookstore, they can always go to the
27:09
Speaker 2: website book dot rock dot com. Can people find you online,
27:13
Speaker 2: Nettie if they want to reach out to you.
27:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's ginger Baker with the blue check mark
27:18
Speaker 1: verified page on Facebook.
27:21
Speaker 2: Okay, great.
27:22
Speaker 1: And there's also a website gingerbaker dot com. That's our
27:25
Speaker 1: website that's got all the links.
27:27
Speaker 2: Nettie Baker, thank you so much for doing this again.
27:30
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for all the work that you've
27:32
Speaker 2: done for cream fans and for fans of your dad.
27:34
Speaker 1: Thank you.
27:40
Speaker 2: That's it. It's in the books.