Latest / #Divorce: Support before, during and after with Sarah-Jane / Episode #36 Divorce and financial planning

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Episode #36 Divorce and financial planning · #Divorce: Support before, during and after with Sarah-Jane

0:02
Hello and welcome to our podcast.
0:05
Hashtag divorce with other crazy, tune divorce, coach based
0:09
in London and myself, sarah-jane tester, French, family.
0:13
Lawyer practicing in international law in England and
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Hong Kong in our podcast. Hashtag divorce, we will be
0:20
bringing you hope positivity as well as practical information
0:24
about divorce and well-being Food For Thoughts and hopefully
0:29
support you. Help you move forward at each
0:31
and every step of the divorce process.
0:34
If you would like to know more about what we do when we're not
0:37
doing this podcast, you can go to our website, that's their
0:41
family law, .co.uk and order a z coaching.com back to today's
0:48
topic. So today we are talking
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Financial advice, with Mark escort of Cavendish, family
0:56
office, divorce, and separation lead to many changes including
1:00
Financial upheavals. Which may often be the reason
1:03
why people hesitate to take the plunge.
1:06
We often hear people say, divorce is expensive, and this
1:09
is a reality. Once separated, you may find
1:12
yourself for the first time having to manage finances.
1:15
Because your spouse took care of it throughout the marriage, or
1:19
the divorce May Resulted in a financial agreement which
1:23
requires putting in place Investments for the future, or
1:26
simply thinking about the future.
1:28
In any case, it's time to take charge and turn to a
1:31
professional. Mark is one of these
1:33
professional. Who will be able to see things,
1:36
clearer reassure you and help you.
1:39
So mark thank you so much for accepting our invitation.
1:43
It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast.
1:46
Would you like to First maybe introduce yourself and tell a
1:49
bit about you? Self to our listeners.
1:51
Well, thank you very much for inviting me.
1:53
It's a pleasure to be here in terms of a kind of introduction
1:56
to who we are. We I've been involved in giving
2:00
advice to people for, I guess probably nearly 30 years now,
2:04
and our divorce work was really, as a result of almost a mistake,
2:08
we were working with a law firm back in the day and they asked
2:11
us to look after one of their clients will certainly talk to
2:14
one of their clients and it was quite a very is a very
2:17
interesting case. The lady is still a kind,
2:19
interestingly enough, Been with me almost all the period that
2:22
I've been working and it was very rewarding for both on a
2:26
personal level but also on a professional level because we
2:29
were able to see the results of our work almost immediately.
2:33
Whereas a lot of other aspects of what we do.
2:36
We have to wait years to see the results.
2:38
So we focused on divorce as an area for our business because we
2:44
want to help people, but we also are interested in making this
2:49
process far less Stressful than it needs to be and kind of if
2:52
you wanted an introduction about who we are and what we're about
2:55
is it's deliberately trying to make it karma and less complex
3:01
which I think is necessarily a mistake that other professionals
3:04
make but it's certainly a cause for the clients the people going
3:09
through their divorces. It's often a factor that they
3:12
point out. You know why can't this be
3:14
shorter? Why Can't This be easier?
3:15
Why Can't This be like this? And so our job is to try and
3:18
help them through that process. It sounds like very reassuring,
3:22
the way you talk, and the way you explained it, and I think it
3:25
will appeal to a lot of people who are totally lost in this
3:28
process. That's really good.
3:30
As so, you came up with this to this activity by chance, nearly
3:33
then it was. Yeah, it was before you were
3:35
doing different things. Well, at the time, I was a
3:38
financial advisor and we were working with this particular law
3:41
firm. And they said, you know, would
3:43
you like to be involved in the case and it was, you know, quite
3:46
complex. It was high emotional, and in
3:49
many respects. It's that pattern has been
3:51
repeated for the last 30 years. It's always been highly
3:55
emotional. There was one particular family
3:57
for obvious reasons. I can't talk too much about it,
4:00
but there are all kinds of things get going on in the
4:04
family. And we were parachuted into kind
4:06
of act as the referee almost. And as, as a result, we didn't
4:11
actually end up doing any further work from the mooc.
4:13
We did certainly resolve the family issues, but it took us
4:17
months rather than weeks and I think the The wonderful thing
4:21
about helping people going through this process, is it can
4:24
be short, it can be less complex, but you've got to sort
4:28
of fully, subscribe to getting involved.
4:31
I think mistakes happen when people kind of half go at their
4:35
divorce and I understand the reasons why and we seen all
4:38
sorts of situations whereby people have either delayed or
4:44
postponed, the inevitable. But once you make up your mind
4:47
to do it, Our advice is to is to get on and make sure I Happens
4:50
and happens as quickly as possible.
4:52
I just wanted to ask. So what do in order to cut
4:56
before they come to see you when people can't make the decision
4:59
to come and see what do they have to understand?
5:03
What is important for them to understand before they come to
5:06
see you or when they make this decision to come and see you?
5:09
Well, they don't necessarily have to have made that decision
5:12
already to divorce their partner, we deal mostly with
5:17
women. In fact, as a business model,
5:20
Than half our clients are women. So they were very focused in
5:23
women. In fact we're a big supporter of
5:25
female entrepreneurs which could be a whole new podcast.
5:28
I'm sure they don't have to have made up their minds to have done
5:31
something and we can certainly help them come to that decision.
5:35
We often use third parties, like divorce, coaches and therapists,
5:40
and those sorts of things to help more on the emotional side,
5:45
but part of our job is to build the trust and rapport.
5:50
With them so that we can help and guide the travel is, when
5:54
you're getting divorce is not just the end of your
5:56
relationship but it's also the start of so many other
5:59
responsibilities including money, of course and many of our
6:04
clients who have experienced this and not prepared for it.
6:07
And our job is to whether it's metaphorically sitting on their
6:12
right hand side physically or somewhere else is to help them
6:17
choose the right professionals to work with because You have to
6:20
be a very Discerning buyer of Professional Services to know
6:24
who to choose, because everyone's going pick me.
6:26
Pick me, I'm the best. I'm wonderful.
6:29
And our job is to help choose the right team.
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Choose the right team for these Partnerships and then manage
6:37
those relationships on behalf of the client.
6:39
So we sit somewhere between the client and all the other third
6:42
party professionals. So often with a person that they
6:45
come to First, not come to Second that's so true market.
6:50
And I love what you what you're saying because it's is the basis
6:54
and it's to provide help to these women or people who are
7:00
going through such a difficult time and advise them on the best
7:03
team. They can use to get divorced and
7:07
plan ahead recover, the fastest possible and with the least
7:11
trauma. There was one lady who obviously
7:13
I can't name her but she lost her husband quite late on in
7:17
life and she said, to me, everything is safe.
7:20
Mark, I went. Oh, that's very good.
7:22
What have you done with all your money?
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She said, well, it's upstairs. She said, would you like to see
7:27
it? I thought this is far too
7:29
intriguing to ignore. So we went upstairs to her
7:32
bedroom and she lifted the mattress underneath the
7:35
mattress. I kid you not was hundreds of
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thousands of pounds in cash company visits.
7:44
She was old school at was safe to her.
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We had, we had a A long discussion over many weeks to
7:53
try and convince her that maybe that wasn't such a sensible
7:56
idea. So when you say that, most of
7:59
your clients are women, you do also work with men, I suppose,
8:03
maybe less, but so are there differences between men and
8:09
women in the way that you can work, when you work with them,
8:13
is it easier in some ways, or is it really a case by Case by
8:17
case? It's a very interesting
8:19
question. We don't mind who we work with
8:22
as long as they share our values and that we can can get on
8:27
together because the being able to have a relationship is vital,
8:33
because some of our relationships last decades.
8:36
So you've got to have a good formations.
8:37
It doesn't matter whether they're male or female, for our
8:40
divorce work, which is in one area of our business.
8:43
The reason why we prefer to deal with women and or, and all the
8:47
reason that we get referred women, is that They are often,
8:51
as you said in your introduction, they're not only
8:53
lose their partner, but they lose access to all the other
8:56
advisors that is given them advice during their marriage.
9:00
So, these could be a banker. These could be an accountant, it
9:03
could be someone who manages the money, it doesn't really matter.
9:06
But, they're often cut off from all of them because the husband
9:09
is the one with the relationship and the wife, sadly is the one
9:12
kept in the background. Sometimes it's deliberate.
9:15
Sometimes it's old-fashioned other times.
9:18
It's just a question of practicalities, but Everywhere.
9:20
You look at it, they are cut loose.
9:24
If poor adrift from all the advice and they don't know where
9:27
to look and our concern is that trying to pick all those
9:31
relationships in a period of high stress and high emotion.
9:36
The not a great combination and so they often make mistakes.
9:39
So I guess we want to help. I mean, fundamentally would you
9:42
say that women need more help in those situations?
9:46
I'm talking about divorce. More precisely than men would
9:49
clutter Don't know whether I could categorically say that
9:52
women need more help than men, what we found is that the of the
9:56
women that we are referred or put in touch with.
9:59
They need a lot more help than their husbands, because their
10:02
level of knowledge is significantly inferior husbands.
10:06
And therefore, we're by joining a team.
10:09
We help balance out their inner quality.
10:12
I just wanted to reassure women who maybe were ashamed because
10:18
like you say, it's just me. The way in them couple that they
10:23
used to, you know, balance the chores, I would say men used to
10:28
do the financial bid. And women did the more practical
10:31
think that not to be ashamed and just you know, if it's one of
10:35
the reasons why they don't want to contact you, it's not a
10:38
problem. No far from it and we working
10:43
with female entrepreneurs, there's lots of studies to
10:46
suggest that they're actually better investors than men and
10:49
return. Earn more money than men.
10:51
So I actually think that women in many respects are better
10:55
managers of their of their wealth but they're just not
10:59
often given that opportunity to have that conversation and so by
11:04
having us on their team essentially, is it levels the
11:07
playing field and we found that the husband and the husband's
11:10
lawyer tend to take some of their requests and some of their
11:14
questions a bit more seriously. Knowing they've got someone like
11:17
us in the corner. Exactly, that's so true.
11:19
Yes. And also the fact that women can
11:21
learn and she said, maybe they give the rent has been the
11:24
responsibility of the household finances, but it doesn't mean, I
11:28
don't understand it if someone explain to them like you would,
11:32
they are perfectly capable of making decisions.
11:34
And as you say, investing your money wisely.
11:37
Yeah, I agree. And I think the medical
11:40
profession is guilty of this and there must be many others, but
11:44
Finance is probably, I would say, the worst.
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It's full of jargon and it's full of terms that That to most
11:50
people unless you're paying attention and you read the
11:53
financial press. Every day is a little bit opaque
11:55
because I think it's done deliberately these to make them
11:59
sound more. I don't know.
12:01
Professional, whereas we try and tailor our communication to each
12:06
individual client in a language or a style of language that they
12:09
can understand. That's not to say that we talk
12:11
down to people, but it's all about making sure that they
12:15
fully understand the implications of what they're
12:18
doing in a way or a manner. Our language, that makes sense
12:21
to them. So, on that note, Mark, what
12:25
makes you different than from other financial advisors or from
12:29
divorce advisors - well, what's your trademark?
12:35
I don't know whether we have a trademark.
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I mean, personally, I'm divorced, got married.
12:40
Very young, and then remarried, and I'm very happy in my second
12:43
marriage. I also have a stepdaughter from
12:46
my wife's first marriage, and so, we've had to understand the
12:50
Our mix of having both a stepdaughter and normal
12:54
daughter, but if you can call it that way.
12:56
So I guess I've been through many of the situations that our
13:00
clients have experienced but I think what makes us different is
13:03
that we don't we don't actually sell a product so we're not
13:07
regulated to give investment advice.
13:10
And what that means is that we can work with any advisor and in
13:15
fact we do a point or helper Point lots of On behalf of our
13:20
clients, our primary concern is our client.
13:23
They are the ones who pay us the fee.
13:25
We don't take retro sessions from any retro sessions.
13:28
I mean commission's or any kickbacks from anyone else and
13:32
so we are hired by our client act solely for them and then we
13:36
help manage and appoint the advisers.
13:40
So lawyers accountants ifas investment managers who ever is
13:44
needed and then that process can last many many years.
13:49
But it's That personal relationship that we have the
13:51
client, which is the key. Yes.
13:53
So really you, as you mentioned, you work for your client and he
13:57
could be a years of a relationship because you would
14:00
maybe assess every year usually the investment, or can you tell
14:04
us a bit more practically? How, how do you work with your
14:07
clients? Let's call it a game of two
14:10
halves to borrow a football analogy, although I don't
14:13
particularly like football, so it's probably not that relevant.
14:15
But if we look at the the process of Hope free divorce and
14:19
post-divorce Simply divorce is all about gathering information
14:23
so it could be the for me and everybody I know hates filling
14:27
in forms so that for me is the worst thing that you want to do
14:30
when you when you're going through this process.
14:32
So we can help complete that we can trace assets.
14:36
We can introduce people to the various strategic Partners.
14:39
We can look at the tax situation and something that's maybe not
14:42
relevant or possibly relevant to.
14:44
Some of your audience is their immigration status because
14:47
often, if they're divorcing, they might be Forcing you know
14:51
from one country to another or moving from one country and
14:54
another left. And there's all sorts of issues
14:56
is issues about residencies and Visas so we can help them with
14:59
all of that. Then post-divorce, it's then a
15:02
question of management and oversight and we would look at
15:05
things either quarterly or more in some cases monthly, but we
15:09
would annual, he's probably a bit too far a time period, to
15:12
monitor things and then we would just cope with whatever
15:15
situation was thrown up at that particular time.
15:18
So we're on hand. 47. We don't really keep to business
15:22
hours and so if someone wants to contact us and they've got an
15:25
issue, we'll talk about it as soon as we feasibly can.
15:28
So I guess pre divorce. It's about getting things ready
15:33
for the divorce, and then post-divorce is then the
15:36
management and oversight of the wealth or the Investments to
15:40
come, which could lead to the questions.
15:42
Like, where do I live? What am I outgoings?
15:45
What can I afford to do? What?
15:46
I can't afford to do. Those are the sorts of questions
15:49
that we can help you. Don't, you have to deal with
15:51
those questions prior to a divorce or do you just deal with
15:55
it afterwards? I'm trying to get people.
15:58
I mean, yeah, it's a good question and I was trying to
16:00
keep the answer clear and simple but as you know, it's always
16:04
complex in terms of the nuances. So some of these questions
16:08
happen during pre divorce, and some of them filter obviously
16:12
into the post-divorce, I guess I was trying to make it a bit too
16:15
simplistic but yeah, you're quite right, some new filters.
16:20
Because I think because you work with lawyers, you must be.
16:25
Because as lawyers, we always need to know what the clients
16:28
want to do in the future, in order to be able to negotiate
16:33
with the other party. So I guess those even if you
16:36
don't get the clear answer at the beginning, it's just
16:39
starting to get the ball rolling about all the things that they
16:43
have to decide. As I say, we've Audrey.
16:46
Usually we always trying to get the same information from the
16:49
clients at the end of the The day because we all need that
16:51
information to work with them. Yeah, and I think the
16:54
information gathering so there's the hard facts in the software.
16:58
So the hard facts are, you know what you spend on this?
17:01
And how much is that worth, you know, those sorts of things?
17:03
Those are quite difficult because often, they're not know.
17:06
And, and it requires a kind of review like a rifle through a
17:09
filing cabinet or to the other more emotional conversations or
17:13
the questions, you know, what do you want to do with your future?
17:15
Where do you want to be sometimes those don't emerge for
17:18
weeks or months because The point that we're introduced to
17:22
most of the clients there in his high state of emotion and
17:24
they're still trying to work out what went wrong rather than how
17:28
do I, then plan for the future. And this is why we work with
17:31
divorce coaches and therapists, sometimes their mental health
17:35
issues, sometimes, it's just more someone that's trained to
17:39
deal with these high emotional states.
17:41
Your lawyer isn't the best person to speak to, or on some
17:44
of these emotional issues. Hey, they're too expensive but
17:47
be, they're just not equipped with Some of the issues and
17:52
questions that come up some of which date back to Childhood in
17:55
some isn't exactly thank you for putting that as Mark because
17:58
it's so true, how we helped the emotion.
18:01
But also as you mentioned people don't have a clear idea what
18:05
they want to do when they are going through that process, the
18:07
divorce, they just want to make sure that they damaged damaged
18:11
the losses and emotional or financial or, and that they make
18:15
decisions. But long term.
18:18
It's after usually that we work. On that a bit later in the
18:21
process. Yes.
18:22
So I have a more practical question Who as a lawyer should
18:27
I set it? What kind of clients?
18:30
There's any client going through a divorce should work with you
18:33
or are there typical clients that really shouldn't need to
18:38
seek your help? Can people just, you know, some
18:41
may not need your help? But are there?
18:43
Who should I send to you? Oh, I see, thank you.
18:47
I would love you to send those clients.
18:50
For us, the type of client, that would suit both our style of
18:56
working the fees that we charge the time that we give to them
19:00
are ones where they've got enough complexity to Warren.
19:05
Someone like us being involved. So if someone has quite simple
19:08
Affairs and there's not much wealth and it's literally
19:12
division of a, maybe a house or some cash, we're probably a
19:17
sledgehammer to crack a nut to use an expression.
19:19
So on On our website, we were actually quite clear about the
19:23
types of clients that we would be suitable for and it would be
19:28
in monetary terms and net worth figure.
19:31
So by net worth, I mean the business, the house, the
19:35
pension, and all other assets are whatever a constitutes, the
19:39
marriage worth. And I think for us it starts at
19:42
5 million because we divorce because we would be heard, I'm
19:48
trying to think of an analogy. Simply the time and effort that
19:51
we would need to devote to someone.
19:53
I think if we did it for someone with quite simple, if it has we
19:56
wouldn't be appropriate for them in which case then we would
19:59
refer them to maybe an IFA who probably be more suitable.
20:02
Thank you. Yes.
20:04
Very clear and definitely is good to to know that and
20:08
differentiate because of your the time you invest in your
20:11
clients and the complexity of what you can deal with.
20:14
That's that's that's a very good point.
20:16
It'll be lovely if we only dealt with wonderful people, too.
20:23
I have another question because as you may well know, we gel up
20:27
with a lot of the international clients.
20:29
So, do your clients have to be have a link with England, or
20:34
could your services be applied to just any couple mixed couples
20:40
or hoop? Who do you trust?
20:44
That's a nationality. I think that's a very
20:48
interesting question. We're ignoring Stick on race
20:51
color, religion or geography. And the only kind of
20:55
prerequisite is that their knowledge of English has to be
20:58
good enough, so that we could write and talk in it, but they
21:01
can come from anywhere in the world.
21:02
And they don't have to have a Nexus of London or the UK at
21:06
all. One of our clients Live in Chile
21:08
and other client lives as far away as Moscow, and we have
21:12
plenty of clients in Europe. We do have a number in the UK as
21:17
well, so it their location is fine.
21:20
Immaterial. And of course these days with
21:22
zoom and teams and all the other various means of being able to
21:26
communicate with people actually their physical location is
21:29
becoming less and less important.
21:31
Yes, yeah, that's what we were joking before.
21:33
Isn't it? How now we can access to and
21:35
people can access from anywhere in the world, all of us and that
21:39
is really brilliant. I think we covered quite a lot
21:41
of what you do. And at this, we gave people an
21:44
idea of who you are, what you do and who can contact you and
21:48
benefit from your services. Maybe a little last question
21:51
mark, we often ask our guests about the little secret or
21:55
little tip. You can give to your the, to the
21:58
listeners here today as we don't have any secrets.
22:03
We were very open business. And I guess if there was
22:08
anything that I would want anyone listening to take away
22:12
for us, it's all about relationships.
22:14
So if we can't build the Rapport, if we can't build the
22:17
trust and the relationship really doesn't have much of The
22:20
future. So, for us, I guess, the biggest
22:23
issue for the ability to us to work together.
22:26
Well, is a is a sharing of values because if our values are
22:30
misaligned, then it becomes very, very difficult to work
22:33
with anybody. Thank you, Mark?
22:34
Yes. I guess.
22:36
Having same similar values, will definitely make the work easier
22:40
and more fluid in terms of communication and understanding
22:45
and also getting the process done faster, I think we've
22:49
reached the end The podcast here if I can thank you Mark for
22:54
coming today to the podcast. I think we go to a really good
22:57
Insight of what your company does and your difference in
23:01
terms of. How do you help how you work?
23:04
And that is really good for our listeners who are all around the
23:07
world. So I think you will probably
23:09
they will benefit from from using your services financial
23:12
planning, that sounds less down Ting.
23:14
I hope for some after listening to this podcast and I hope
23:17
everybody here really enjoyed this.
23:20
Episode as much as we enjoyed doing it and preparing it with
23:24
your mark, so it will probably encourage some to tackle the
23:28
issue which is sometime. We put it off and we pray for
23:31
the best. So thank you, Mark, for, for
23:34
reassuring people. Making sure that is the
23:36
relationship you want to build. And that's what matches really
23:38
how you want to to work forward. Thank you very much.
23:41
If you want to contact Mark all the details are in the show
23:44
notes so don't hesitate to contact him.
23:48
Thank you, Mark for being with us today.
23:50
I shall thank you. Thank you so much for listening.
23:59
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24:24
searching. Other has a tomb or Sergent
24:26
Astor. It would be great to hear from
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you, see you soon for another episode of hashtag divorce?