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Let's Talk Strategy (OCD)(Episode 09) · Living Uncertain an OCD Podcast

• Marc & Stacee: Hi y'all. I'm Stacey and along with my husband Mark, we want to thank you for living uncertain with us. Of course, as you know now, this is the podcast that talks all things OCD and ERP related. And tonight we are going to talk about strategy. So welcome to episode nine. Let's talk strategy. Welcome. We thought it might be a good time in our podcast to address really a lot of the nitty gritty of Thank you for joining us on today's episode and Living Uncertain with us. We are not therapists and this podcast is intended to provide information and support. It should not replace traditional means of seeking help from a licensed mental health professional. If you like this episode or would like to hear more, please like, subscribe or share with someone you think may benefit. Here at Living Uncertain, we're building a community of support. Opening: Hello, and welcome to the podcast, Living Uncertain. This podcast is dedicated to obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, and the primary treatment, exposure response prevention, ERP. OCD comes in many forms, such as contamination, perfectionism, checking, harm, superstitious, religious or moral, sexual orientation, and or relationship. ERP is the gold standard to treating OCD. Marc & Stacee: what we did do during our time focusing in on ERP, both in our therapy sessions and as well outside of them at home. And as we've talked about before on earlier podcasts, it's kind of been like, Opening: and it focuses on deliberately confronting fears, the exposure, while refraining from compulsive rituals, the response prevention. With repeated exposures and without engaging in compulsions, we learn to tolerate anxiety and break the cycle of intrusive thoughts. We are a married couple that have faced both the challenges of OCD and the incredible healing that ERP can provide to your marriage, family, and your home. As a person who lives with OCD, Marc & Stacee: If you and your significant other would like to share your story, we would love to have you on the podcast. Please click on the link in the episode description and fill out the interest form. peeling off the layers of an onion, if you will, and finding the ways that my OCD has shown up in my everyday life and then tackling those one at a time using different various ⁓ ERP strategies. And so we thought tonight would be a good time to really talk about what that actually looked like and to share with our listeners out there some of those strategies that we implemented and those that worked. Opening: I am much more than this diagnosis. We all can be. Marc & Stacee: exceptionally well for us, even though they may have seemed very challenging at the start. Which we've already talked about a couple of them of different things that we did during the exposure piece, which was, you know, one of the things you did is you were watching videos of, you know, that set exposure to death that you had to do, which was watching, you know, decomposition or finding different type of videos as far as related to death going to a cemetery. ⁓ You know, those are, those were like true exposures to something that you had a fear around that brought up your anxiety. Yes. And that I had a lot of intrusive thoughts around. Yes. But there were also other areas like the checking in or your text messages, those type of things that you would do like mental compulsions that we might not necessarily catch right away. Yes. And there was a particular strategy that we'll talk about that I had to implement and really had to do myself and to make sure I was holding myself accountable with that one, because it was one that was really meant to address the mental compulsions and the ruminations that I would have privately away from everyone. No one knew I was doing it kind of thing. The other thing that I thought would be a good time and really a nice segue into this topic of strategies is to share something that I did, something that I wrote ⁓ in the early stages of the intensive treatment. And it's based on a technique that my therapist, our therapist introduced to us. ⁓ And it really highlighted just how much OCD had affected my life. much it had taken from me. And it really made me think about taking on this ERP journey and making it work. Because I didn't want to feel like these words made me feel any longer. And the strategy is known essentially as the empty chair letter. And so you write a letter to someone or something that you imagine is sitting in a chair across from you. and it's a series of prompts and then you kind of fill in the blank and it lets you really sit with the emotions that OCD has caused and to allow for the initial part of the healing. And I'm taking this moment to share this with you all tonight, with the listeners, because I think it's important that I do so because this is one of the first moments when I really did sit back and say, wow. I do have OCD and this is what it has done to me and this is what I've allowed it to do and I'm ready for that to stop now. And so if there's anyone out there listening or you know someone that may be having these same feelings that again, this is a community that we're building of people who are wanting to overcome this very challenging mental health disorder. So without further ado, this is my empty chair letter that I wrote to my OCD. I hate it when you take control and it's not fair when you force me to shrink and tell me what to do. I didn't deserve to never have a voice or to live in constant fear and I don't understand why it's so hard for me to just let you go. I don't like it when I feel I'm not in control of my own words and actions and I'm tired of the weight I feel, feeling trapped and not able to break free. I don't like the way you've stolen my life and made me feel less than. but I'm most angry that I don't feel like I've lived. I'm hurt because I feel so much regret having let you in, and I'm sad because I feel as though I've wasted so many years of my life. I feel let down when you take over, and I'm afraid that it's too late. I'm afraid that when you show up, and I feel as though you won't let go, my biggest fear is not living. I wish you all the best, but it's time for you to go. I wish I had more courage earlier in my life and I want you to leave and never come back. I want to live and discover what I can do and I need you to know that what you've taken from me is no longer what I am willing to give. I need to make choices that are right for me and experience life before death. I accept that you are a part of my life and that I kept you for so long. I think once I had the opportunity to actually write that down and read it and then read it again and really let it sink in. It bolstered my courage to really make the ERP work because I knew it was going to be hard. And I knew I was going to be asked to do things that were uncomfortable. That's what most of it is, is learning how to live uncertain, how to live uncomfortable. And I knew I was going to have to be asked to do that. I knew that was going to be hard for me. But seeing it in a written form, reading it, It's knowing that I've lived like this for so many years ⁓ was quite eye opening. And I'm so glad that I did this exercise. And this was one of the first techniques, one of the first strategies that was implemented in our ERP so that I could really see from an emotional standpoint what OCD has done and what it's taken. And now how do I break free and get past it? And from my point of view, I was able to hear and see in a very clear way what or how OCD was impacting your life. It was very easy to sit there and read that letter or when you read it out loud how you felt that OCD has robbed you of your life. And you've talked about it now how you feel like you're now living your life. know, and that a lot of that is because you've gone through the different ERP strategies and worked really hard to move on the other side. Yeah. And that empty chair letter was, you know, very, very impactful on myself too, to know what you were going through and to have a little bit more compassion on what you're going through. Because it's very easy to not have compassion. when it's something that you can't see. Sure. It's not like a cancer diagnosis where you see them going through chemotherapy and potentially losing their hair or, you know, what, you know, having scoliosis or, you know, some other physical disability or physical mental physical health issue. You can have compassion for that. But when it's mental, it's very hard to potentially have compassion. or what that person is actually really struggling with. It is, and if you don't experience it in the way that we do, for example, who have OCD and when we're interacting with those who don't, it is challenging for y'all to recognize what we're going through and to see it through our lens. It's very easy to say, let's not worry about that. Let's just let that go. Let's just not think about that anymore. And to be so confused or... unsure why people can't do that. But to those of us who truly suffer with OCD, it is incredibly debilitating. And it is not just a part of our personality where we like to have things a certain way. It goes beyond that. And when it does go beyond that, it can be incredibly intrusive upon your life. And seeing that I really, truly felt like it had stolen so much from me. was, it was hard. I'm glad I wrote it. I'm glad I did the exercise with her. I'm glad that she had me do this. I kept it all this time because I knew I wanted to share it someday somehow. ⁓ Because I can't be alone in this. can't be the only one who feels this way about having OCD. I think ⁓ so many of us do that know it's easier said than done. to just let go of the intrusive thoughts, to just not think about it, to tuck it away. It feels immeasurably difficult to do that. And so to go through ERP, to learn the strategies, to implement these techniques becomes so important. And on my side, when we sit in therapy and talk about the different strategies, it was very helpful to come up with a game plan together to take in and be able to tackle it outside of the two hours or three hours worth of therapy because there are still many more hours of the week. that you can't sit there with your therapist with and to be able to feel like I could support you on that side. was very helpful. Absolutely. And I know that I could not have made near the amount of progress or had the amount of success that I've had if it hadn't have been for you keeping me accountable, keeping the support going, keeping me motivated to keep going and trying. ⁓ Had I been left to my own devices, I'd like to say that I would do it. ⁓ But when it comes down to it, Facing challenging things is really hard and it's better to do when someone's in your corner. And it's even better to do when that someone is just as invested in your health, your wellness and your healing as you are. makes, that's what makes our story, this is part of why we're doing this podcast too, right? It makes our story unique that we are a married couple who have actually lived this and really. just champion the idea that someone who's living with OCD could go through it with someone who cares about them as a spouse does, or as a parent does, or as a sibling does, who becomes invested. Because that opportunity to have that other person invested with you, it can be a game changing. opportunity in your life. And it really has been for us. I mean, that's why we're here. That's why we love talking about this at this point because And I do know that we've talked about, just even last night, we were in therapy. ⁓ And we were talking about how this technique, this approach to dealing with OCD is not normal. It's not normal for a spouse necessarily to sit in on it or... To the degree that you have. Yeah. as well. sometimes therapists might have, if you have a relationship OCD, they might have your spouse come in the door and sit with you and work through problems or whatnot. But absolutely. Or they may have your spouse or loved ones come in and sit, you know, from session to session, just to kind of hear what's going on and to help you. But to have your spouse actively a part of each and every session, and then taking those tools and implementing everything at home with absolute fidelity in terms of what we were able to do and hold each other accountable throughout the week before we go back for more intensive treatment. It's. The only thing I can think, it's game changing. I know I've already said that, but it just really truly is. But you also have to that level of trust. Oh yes, which we've also talked about in previous podcasts. And positive relationships. It's not a, you know, I gotcha, you know, when we're working through different things or, you know, and I know that's how it feels maybe it is for us now because we're at this point in the whole thing, but, and we can laugh a little about it with ourselves and have a little more. grace for one another when it comes to figuring out a new norm. But certainly in the early stages, it had to be kept very What's the word? Well, was simplistic, our approach. Well, our approach was very simplistic, yes, but it had to be managed very carefully and very it had to be curated in a certain way. And then as we ramped up, yeah, we sure did. We started off low level as far as like the treatment side, as far as like the exposures and and what we were allowing and like the amount. So like the checking in. That was that was a big one for you with with our kids checking in and making sure. that they need that they could, you know, they had to check in with you if they went somewhere and, you know, throughout their time of being at a friend or whatever, they had to check in. Prior to the ERP, it was a check in, you know, basically sometimes every half an hour to an hour. not just like when you get there and when you come home kind of thing. It was a frequent check in to allow me to have the reassurance that they were A-OK. So one of the things that we and it became compulsive. Yeah. And then one of the things that we ended up doing as far as like the work side of it or the ERP was the kids check ins, you know, they could check in with you, you know, when they first got there and then when they were middle of it and then at the end. And then we backed off to when they got there and when they left. then it became only check in with me. Yep. And you were cut out of the loop and you had to sit in the discomfort of, they are somewhere. Yep. You know, just like that. again, knowing that I could trust Mark enough to know that he was keeping tabs on them in a healthier way so that I could sit in the discomfort of not knowing, which would break me free from the need to to compulse, to perform compulsions. Yeah, which was, you know, So like an example, know, our son went to Disneyland with school and you know, the first time he went, it was constant check-ins. Check-in on your bus ride over there. Check-in on when you get to the hotel. Check-in when you go to dinner. Check-in when you get back to the hotel room. Okay. I think they know. Yeah. It was, was a lot of checking in that he had to do. But then when you started the ERP, it, we got to a point because we had already kind of gone through some of that. the decrease amount of checking in with you, it was, okay, check in with me when you got to the hotel. And then I could tell you, hey, they made it to the hotel. But your discomfort still was that you didn't hear directly from him. ⁓ is that? it was, I didn't hear from him for several hours of the day before they would get back to their hotel room at night. And again, Mark is using our son's trip to Disneyland as an example, but We've had a myriad of examples in the last several years. Just even when they go out with their friends. checking in and checking in to the point of it being a compulsion. And now it has improved pretty drastically in that regard. The checking in and the seeking reassurance from Mark, however, was one of the toughest ones that I had to overcome. And it is still one today, literally, as we have this as we are speaking on this podcast episode that I still think about, that I still need to keep in check, no pun intended, that I still need to make sure that I have a grasp on because I will fall back into old patterns and old habits where I feel the need to check in and get reassurance from Mark. Whether it's in-person reassurance, whether I'm calling him multiple times a day, whether I am asking his permission for things because that would provide me with reassurance. That's a big one, asking for permission. that was always just a way to check in and get reassurance from you. And I think that was one of the biggest ones that became so natural for Mark and I because early on in our relationship, too, I didn't realize I had OCD, nor did he. So that just was who I was. And I thought that that was OK. This is what I do. And I think it became such a normal part of our everyday communication. that by the time we recognized it was part of my OCD and the compulsion to check in, we both had to go through a lot to undo that. relearning. A definite relearning. Especially like, know, hey, I'm going to go to the grocery store. Yeah. You know, or it wasn't even going to the grocery store because you weren't necessarily driving. You know, when we first started this journey, it was like, hey, I need to buy something off of Amazon. Is that OK? Or I want to send this text message to one of our employees or to this person in my life. Can you read it for me and tell me if that's an okay text message? Like I always had to hear him say, yes, it's okay. Yes, it's okay. Constant. I don't even know what I would do if you said no. Well, I would. There would be times like you would ask me to buy something and I'd be like, no. ⁓ yeah. And then that wouldn't set very well. So then I would ask again and ask again until I got the response that I needed in order to feel like My anxiety was down low enough that my compulsion had been successful. So when we're talking this episode of the podcast, All Things Strategy, one of the other strategies, and it just got brought up again last night during our session, was we had a timeframe where I was only given X amount of check-ins per week? Well, we started off per week. But we started off with per day. That's what I thought. At the very beginning, was per day because it was that severe with the amount of check-ins and we didn't want your anxiety to spin out of control. I knew if we went to the week and there would be like a day that we'd go through and you wouldn't be able to actually check in, you know, in the very beginning. mean, we had to ramp it up. So with our therapist, we literally had to set forth a number to say, okay, Mark, what's a number that seems fair to you for the amount of times that Stacey can check in with you in a single day? For example, that's how we started. And he would say, okay, three. Okay, so I got three passes, like three hall passes, basically, to check in with him during a single day. And if I checked in three times already, I knew and he knew that was it. So It became a matter of, I really need to ask him about this? Do I really need to check in with him about this? And I will tell you, y'all just that one little piece. It worked because all of a sudden, even at my lower moments, ⁓ I started to think about, do I really need to check in with him on this? I was probably checking with myself, which is a whole nother thing, but I would say, no, I don't. And then I wouldn't do it. And so I started to check in with him less and seek reassurance from him less and less. And then as I did it and as I got stronger, then I wasn't even asking myself any longer if I need to. if this is something that's really worth checking in. But I will say when I would come home from work or when I would see her in person at the end of the day type of thing, you know, she'd be like, hey, you know, I had this this urge to check in with you and to ⁓ about this one thing, you know, and I'm so glad I did or did not. And I had to recognize really close really quickly. that that was her way of actually doing a check-in with me by telling me a story. Well, I had to get sneakier. Yeah, and she became very sneaky with it. And I recognized that and I knew. And so then I had to hold myself accountable again and really decide, OK, I'm putting all this effort into really doing this life-changing therapy. I want to make it count and I want to make it benefit my life, my marriage, my kids. It's worth it, even though it's hard. So I got the passes. So then we would say, okay, now for the week, you get X amount of check-ins. And I would go through that and we'd keep really good track of it. And I would know when and where I could check in and when I didn't. And when she would, I mean, usually when she would check in or say, hey, I need this call pass, I need this pass right now, it usually was with. really fairly large issues. And I could see why she would need that reassurance during that time. But within that check-in that she needed to use a hall pass, I wouldn't give her 10, are you sure, are you sure, are you sure. because she would do that before she got the one reassurance in there sometimes. That was hard. Yeah. Because I like that. Well, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? Because my normal response was I'm not sure or I don't know. ⁓ That one was hard too. You know, that's how I when she didn't use her hall pass, her card for that, it was I'm not sure or I don't know. And then her anxiety would go up. to sit in my discomfort of him not giving me the reassurance that I wanted. But eventually, it got better. And you had to keep monitoring yourself too as far as your anxiety level. we would go back, you know, every therapy session, we would talk about, you know, where were you at? We would talk about scenarios that might have come up. And that was where it was very important for me to be in those those therapy sessions too, because we would talk about scenarios that she might have been exposed to. And maybe I'd forget to mention one and then maybe he would mention it for me. And then, you know, we have to remember that we love each other and we trust one another to go on this journey together. Which is good, you know. We really truly do, y'all. We really do. You know, and even last night, like, you know, I think our therapist was joking, maybe not, that, you know, do we need some, you know, marriage counseling? know, because, you know. Life gets hard too. Yeah, and life right now for us is not that easy. and we had a business now we don't. So, I mean, there are lots of things that are going on that are still closing out one chapter. so that we can open a new one. And so things do get challenging. And this is kind of what we touched on last week too is when it gets challenging, give yourself some grace in the areas that are appropriate to do so. And then, but I really liked something that Mark said last night, which was. I think we need to keep pushing on the ERP because even in the tough moments, it's really, those are the ones where the ERP could maybe be the most effective because you can't let yourself pull back too much away from it and move into those habits again, just because life gets overwhelming again, that's too easy. If you lean into the ERP, still giving yourself grace, there's room for grace, but still not letting the ERP Fall completely. Yeah. I think that was really insightful of you, babe, to say that. Well, and I know like two weeks prior we had talked about, you know, giving some grace because of the stuff going on and, you know, and then this past week, you know, then two weeks went through and then I just noticed that we were spiraling more and more and that wasn't being very helpful for you. No. You know, OCD does not go away everybody. And OCD doesn't say, ⁓ you guys are having a hard time right now in your life. ⁓ well, I'll just sit this one out. No, no, no. OCD is like, ⁓ yes. Not going to take a vacation. I really like it when you feel this way because now I have a way to squirm right back in and take over just like it wants to. And I do know that that Stacey gets frustrated with me too, that when I start noticing certain habits that she's doing such as like not sleeping as well as she could, ⁓ you know, and maybe doing some check-ins and more the one of the more recent ones that she started doing was it was actually having our son check in with her frequently, you know, and we've got a group text between the three of us and that group text dropped off and it became a text chain between the two of them. And I don't think it was. It's not intentional. It was not intentional. To leave you out of the text thread by any means. But I think it's also important to highlight the fact that our son is about to turn 18 on Friday. And so at 18 to be checking in with his mother every 15 minutes when he's out and about with his friends is probably not healthy. Yeah. And so that's a big part of why I did this because I knew that I had some habits and some compulsions in that way that I didn't want our kids to suffer because I had that. So I wanted to take the steps to make the change and Mark's right, life gets a little more stressful. Well, all of a sudden I need to start making sure that I can have certainty and control in my life again, even though I literally have live uncertain tattooed on my the inside of my forearm so I can always look at it and always read it and remind myself what the journey is that I've been on and what my main goal is. ⁓ But it's hard to keep maintaining it. But since OCD likes that, you have to find a way to push through that. It's that little grain of sand that's in the bottom of your shoe that kind of just irritates you and just constantly is there and never really goes away. You know, you learn how to compartmentalize it. You know, and to make sure that you keep it at bay as much as you can. And when those stressors come up, like right now you're back to, know, was it for the week? You get one card? Yes. That just seems... So that's how far... My goodness. One check-in for the entire week? One pass for the entire week. That's how far that Stacey has come versus two or three fingers with me y'all. can do this. To then we went to a couple a week. Now we're one for the entire week. Challenge accepted. gets that pass from me. But she's got to tell me, I'm using my pass. She doesn't get to say, You know, hey, I think I really want to try to use it right now. but then later say, ⁓ I was just joking. No, you pull out that Uno card. You have to play that Uno card. Yeah. You know, and that one so far, like this week, you know, I mean, now it's been 24 hours now since, you know, our therapy session. But, you you haven't used it yet. it's in my back pocket. It's my ace in my pocket for when I need it this week. But I also think now that you are thinking about it more on how thinking about the OCD and how it's pulling up. That's the beauty of the strategy. Yeah. Is now I do, oh, I don't think I need to check in now. And then those thoughts kind of start to diminish as well. And I really think that one of the other pieces that I wanted to talk about on this particular episode, one of the strategies that I've had to learn. And this is one that despite the fact that Mark and I are doing this together and he is a huge, beyond huge support for me and keeps me accountable. One of my biggest hurdles that I had to jump over as well are my mental compulsions, the ones that I kept hidden from everyone. And I had to make sure that I was keeping myself accountable for those. And that proved challenging, especially in the initial stage, a little less challenging for me now. But the big strategy that I was taught and that I learned was that I have to... do I say this? I would usually say, well, what if I'd be like, no, no, you're okay, you're right, you're gonna be fine. It's okay. It's I'm sure it's fine. Everything is going to be okay. And this is why and I would list out the reasons why everything would be okay, because I would need that mental compulsion, I would need that ritual in order to take away the anxiety that those intrusive thoughts created. And I can't see those happening. Now, I've been taught and I've learned that I have to kind of lean into the thought. What if, yeah, maybe. What if they don't like me? my what if became, yeah. Maybe they will. My what ifs became maybe they will, or maybe it will, or maybe I will. And I had to then sit in that discomfort and stop it right there. Boom, that's it. No more. And I had to sit in the discomfort of that maybe phrase to think, ⁓ boy, okay. And then my anxiety would go up and then I would stay there and then I would have it come back down and then I could move on. And I didn't... ruminate. didn't have multiple mental compulsions. And I am proud to report that my need for mental compulsions is significantly lower than I have ever had in my entire life. And again, going through most of my life, not even realizing that that's what those were. And now where you sit with your anxiety after going through some of those mental compulsions, where do think you're at? a zero one? Maybe a one. Setting in a one. Whereas before you're probably sitting. I was sitting at least at a five or six, even after the anxiety would would come down. I couldn't get it all the way down. So I kept having to practice like any any workout that you do to keep any muscle strong. You have to keep practicing and keep working it out. And so I would just keep giving myself the opportunity to lean in from the what if statement to the maybe statement and then just have to sit there and then let it go up. and then let it come back down. And the more I did that, the more than I was like, okay, now I'm a five or six, okay, now I'm at a four, okay, now I can get it to where I'm a one. I'm probably not a zero yet, because it's those are, it's really challenging for me, but I'm down to a one, which is pretty significant change for me. And I hope that I can keep working that muscle to get it down to a zero. ⁓ But that's one of the big strategies that I learned and had to implement based on my mental compulsions. It's so interesting how we've learned all these different strategies and then strategies for checking in and reassurance where the, ⁓ I'd get the two hall passes, the three hall passes, et cetera. ⁓ And then of course the first one being my empty chair letter which really set the stage for all the therapy that came after that. And the therapy that continues to come after all of this. And it's helpful to... reread that again every now and then? It is. To remind yourself where you were, where you are with your OCD, and that is not taking control of your life. But one of the things that we talked about last night that I kind of brought up is you were going through your treatment over those five, six, seven months. And then, you know, we got kind of into an easy. Things got more comfortable. More comfortable. And we're kind of like on cruise control until within the past month or so. obviously, know, tax season is due. We're closing up, you know, the taxes from the business. up our business. They're bringing up some of those feelings still because we're having to talk more about them and making sure everybody has their tax forms. You know, that happened in January. You know, so there's a lot of things that are bringing up some past trauma, which then OCD latches onto and likes to feed on. know, so if you're out there and you have your spouse and I will tell you myself, like, I think it was Monday night, you came walking out and you were, you know, I pulled into the driveway and you walked out and we were talking and Like you were checking, it was that reassurance piece that you were continuing to check for. my frustration level went up. that is something so ridiculous to be thinking about. But I also have to go back and remember that it's your OCD speaking. It's not you. It's still very frustrating for me when you were going through those mental compulsion check-ins and that's why, you know, last night was very important to process what had gone through that, especially over the weekend and into the early part of this week too. And, you know, so you have to have those pieces in place to help you as well. It's not just your... the hall passes or your empty chair. There's a lot of components to making sure that your OCD is kind of boxed up and put into a corner. It does like to pop out every now and then and it's like that Jack in the Box. Well, and without a partner committed to the process, it becomes even more challenging. But yes, I really enjoyed your Jack in the Box analogy. That was great. It can scare everybody. it really does. Yeah. And it creeps back up and you don't really think about it and you're not inviting it. You know, and that's one of like one of the things last night, I, you know, I, we talked quite a bit about yours too. And for me, it does scare me to see you be in those positions. ⁓ I know. Because I don't want to see you revert back. But then talking together, the three of us, really remembering where you were compared to where you are. have not slid all the way back down the hill and are sitting on your butt down there. You have gone down maybe three or four steps. And now we've got to That's hard for you. That's hard. I've climbed the mountain and I knew I hadn't gotten to the peak yet, but any slide backwards, it is hard. It's hard to think about that. But now, because I recognize and I'm so aware that it's very motivating to say, no, I'm going to pick myself up and we're going to keep going. And that's the biggest piece is we are going to continue to keep going. Absolutely. We're not going to let the stressors of life ⁓ get to us. And I will say this is the first stressors in our life that we have come across since going through your treatment. I know in five years from now, as we're still doing this, and we're going to have more stressful events because that's just life. That's life. You know, it really is the game of life. And really, you can't let OCD win at the game of life. That's the main takeaway, I think. for a lot of what we go through having OCD. And that's something that, you know. we are still very committed and we're committed to each other on it. absolutely. And anybody that's going through OCD with a partner and they're frustrated and they want to give up, it does have to be a group effort to get through it. And if you're out there and you're listening and you and your partner have your partner has tackled this because how you and I have tackled this is not the norm. No, it isn't. And we talked about that last night. This is a magic sauce that I do not think has been tapped into. You work in the health field, I work in the educational system. I mean, we both deal in this type of world and we know what the magic sauce is. that's what this is. I agree. And it doesn't happen very often. And I don't think hardly at all. ⁓ You know, and that's so if you're out there and you're listening and your spouse has gone through some ERP treatment, you know, we'd like to hear about how you supported your spouse through it. You might not have sat through the therapy sessions with them or whatever. You know, how are you, you know, working together as a couple to to deal with this or a parent and a child or, you know, because, you know, that happens in the world too. And we'd really love. For those of you out there that have a similar story, please reach out to us and let us know. We'd love to talk with you about it and to have you as a part of this community that we're building here because we certainly are excited to help and to support in any way that we can. And we appreciate that everybody is out there listening and sharing our story out there. If you have other friends or family members. And that's how I started listening to podcasts is because OCD podcast is because of you. I wanted to know more about it and that's the way that I learned because when you read or you listen to people's stories, it gives you validation. Absolutely. That what you're doing is all right and what you're going through is... What you're going through is natural too and you're not alone. Sure. So we'd like people to reach out to us and want to be able to share their story. You can just send us an email. It's info.livinguncertain. at gmail.com and take and send us an email so that we can connect and get you on the show too as well. think that about wraps up our episode everyone. Again, thank you for listening and thank you for living uncertain with us. Absolutely. Till next time.