Latest / Get Real with Jim Weiss / Renée Fleming: Soprano Singer, Advocate for Music as Medicine with The FNIH

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Renée Fleming: Soprano Singer, Advocate for Music as Medicine with The FNIH · Get Real with Jim Weiss

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So talking to Renee Fleming might have been one of
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: the great thrills and honors of a lifetime. As she
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and I are collaborating on this foundation of National Institute's
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: a health project. It's a really cool program that we're
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: very excited to get launching. What I love about working
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: with Renee on this Music and the Mind program, you know,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: and music is medicine. Really is more appropriate is how
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: music was so critical to my both coping with Audre's
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: illness and also recovering. Not just the music, it's the
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: community that comes together around the music. Music is this
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: universal language that brings lots of different viewpoints and people together,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: but scientifically, it more than likely can impact your health,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: your mood, your psyche. The goal of the program that
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: we're doing together is to really put science behind that
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: and make it part of the medical and treatment pathways
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: that people under take when they've got both mental and
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: other illnesses. So tune in. This is a really special
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: one to me, very personal, but more so just the
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: revelation of a great opera singer. I do not get
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: her to sing on it. That's the one little regret anyway.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Can't wait for you guys to share in this really
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: special episode. Hey, welcome to get real. You and I
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: have been getting real.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: For a while though, Yes we are real.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: We are so real you are real. I mean, look,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: it's a dream come true to work with you to
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: get this thing going. I'm excited about music and the
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: mind and love that the book is there now I
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: don't have to put it up and stumble and fumble
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: with that. I really think this is an exciting time
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: for mental health medicine. There was actually some big news
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: today in cancer, but that's a whole other thing we
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: can get into. But whether you're involved in this directly
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: or in my case, the reason I got involved was
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: very much related to my wife's cancer herself. While she
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: was going through that, music had a lot to do
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: with keeping me relatively sat as a caregiver, as someone
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: who was trying to save her. I think you probably
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: heard these stories, and there's lots of great stories you've
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: been witnessed too. You've been at this a lot longer
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: than I have. It's really great to be partnering with
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the Foundation of the National Institute of Health and you
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: to fill the gap that the NIH funding is now
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: not filling. But I think the whole idea of FNIH
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: is to create the public private partnerships that will make
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: a difference. And there's plenty of NIH science that we
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: can leverage and foundations, so there's a decent foundation that
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: we can work off of. So we have a lot
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: to discuss. Let's talk about your early days and then
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: we'll dive into the work you and I are doing
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: with FNIH to bring music into healthcare. Tenacity is really
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: one of the keys to success, but opportunity plays a
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: big part. Was there a teacher or a school or director,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: or a turn events that propelled you on the path
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: to becoming Renee Fleming that we know today?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: There were so many. It's funny to become a classical
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: singer and we have to know so much. It's not
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: talent is just the first ten percent, because we have
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: to understand the music and style of centuries from different
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: countries as well. And then there's performance practice. I mean,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: it's really a big learn, but it's also fascinating, and
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: you know, I became passionate about it. I grew up
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: with it. My parents were both vocal music teachers, so
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: it seemed like a natural path to just continue on.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: I just kept going. We all assumed I would become
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: a teacher as well. That was my first degree. But
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I stayed in the practice room and just wanted to
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: get better and better. And it requires a real commitment
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: to excellence, as with most anything.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Right, got it? I saw you, I know you, and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I dispute what opera it might have been that I
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: came to at the MET in the early nineteen nineties.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I think is that when you had your debut there?
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I jumped in, buddy, who got sick?
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm pretty sure it was Mozart.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was Mozart. Figure out.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: That was my really first dip in that water. Normally
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I was going to Grateful Dead shows and other music
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: which you and I have connected on. How is it
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: that you ultimately met Francis Collins that really started you
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: on the road to music in the mind, I'm a
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: biotech guy. Francis Collins has a big name obviously in
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: our world. How the heck did an opera singer get
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: connected with Francis Collins?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So I got invited to a dinner party in the
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: DC area. I had just moved down here. I had
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: just accepted a new job as a creative consultant to
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: the Kennedy Center. And there were all these extraordinary people
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: at this dinner party, including three Supreme Court justices. It
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: was the same as marriage equality was decided. And Francis
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: came and I'd never met him, and he brought his guitar,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: and I didn't know that he always brings his guitar.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: So I said to him, I said, why are scientists
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: studying music? Don't they have more important things to do?
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: And he said, actually no, He said, we have a
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: brain institute and music is in every known mapped area
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: of the brain, and we want to understand how it works.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: We want to learn about the brain. So that's how
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: it started. And I said, well, I think the audience
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: would love to know what your findings are. And we
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: really were able to present at least every year, if
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: not more, to the public here in the DMB area.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Well that's amazing. Did anything else happen at that event
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: that was memorable? Did you guys sing together?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: We did? We sang together. There was a three piece
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: string band there and we took over. Francis always brings
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: his playlist as well, and there were songs that everybody
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: knew and it was a little bit of a contentious
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: evening because people weren't necessarily making eye contact at first
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: because of the marriage equality decision, especially Justiceis Scalia and
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: luth Vader Ginsburg. I sat between them because they're both
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: oper I know that was brave and by the end
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: everyone was singing and just carrying on, had a fantastic time.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Music it really it heals just about everything.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Huh, absolutely, no question. I think if Congress had a
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: sing along every time they met, we'd be in bitter shape.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Is that where the mission was born at that moment?
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Or did it take a little time to just take
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: With Francis.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: It didn't take a lot of time, because Devia Rudder
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: was running the Kennedy Center said absolutely, I'm all in.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And Francis was very surprised that he had sent an
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: email to all of the heads of the various institutes
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: of the NIH and said, is anybody interested in joining
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: up with this kind of an examination of research that
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: would look at the power of music over our health?
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: And almost everybody signed up. It got off the ground
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: in a very meaningful way, and it started there. I
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: think it's all online still. It started there with various
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: researchers and also some creative arts therapists coming as well,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: music therapists and the NEA and me and Deborah and
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: various members of the Kennedy Center along with NIH meeting
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: together for two solid days with presentations, and I thought, oh,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to understand any of this is going
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: to be all over my head. But of course you
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: get the gist of it. And I'm a musician, so
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I've kind of lived with it my whole life. I
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: have to say, it's such a hopeful pursuit. It speaks
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: to our humanity and to our need and desire to
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: connect with each other. It's really a wonderful area to
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: be working in.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's hard to dispute around music. I
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: mean maybe the styles, but you've done incredible mashing up
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: classical styles with Mickey Harp for example. Tell us a
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: little bit about how you connected with him, because he's
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: obviously looking and has looked at the space pretty seriously
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: of all the musicians other than yourself. Except we're going
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: to hopefully discover more after we put this podcast out
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: there and get more players.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I met Mickey through Diane Blackman, who is the lobbyist
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: for the Grammys. Diane is a fantastic networker, as you
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: can imagine, and she was very close friends with the
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Grateful Dead players, but also the Allman Brothers and Derek
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Trucks and Susan Tedeski and so I've met most of
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: them and been able to hear their concerts and really
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: fallen in love with everybody. So, but be to singing
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: with the Grateful Dead or was really Dead in company
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: at the Sphere last year was unbelievable.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: That is unforgettable, okay, and we definitely need to get
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: you with some other folks. I'm going to go see
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: Fish there on May first for the first time.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: So, oh great. You can't even comprehend the size of it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: What did you think?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: We did an improvisation? You know, Mickey plays that he
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: has this beautiful drone and he's drumming and he's an
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: identic before was that here? Who say who? I also
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: absolutely adored and admired, So we just put together something.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: And I come from jazz, that's my background, so improv
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: doesn't frighten me. It's very releasing. It's also great for
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the break Oh wait, how so why because in order
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: to improvise you have to the same is true for comedians.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: You have to shut off the frontal lobe that it
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: judges you in the moment. You have to allow for
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: the flow state and you have to really let go.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And so it's a fantastic feeling to be able to
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: do that.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought that I saw when I went to
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Mickey's recording studio. He showed me a video of you
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: all doing something similar during the pandemic. Were you doing
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: it then too?
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, that was with Sakir exactly, and that's still online too,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: the two of them together, and we did this on
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: zoom because obviously when weren't together. I'm really happy to
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: have that as a document.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Well, has that inspired some of the researchers to get
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: involved because the music in the mind? Who's in that book?
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: And why did you put that together?
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: So it's an anthology And it was just because the
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: webinar was so much fun and so helpful, I think,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: especially during the pandemic. We had seven hundred thousand people
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: check in from all kinds of different countries around the world,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: and I thought, well, let me go a step further
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: and create this anthology. And the style of David Rubinstein,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: who did this based on his interviews. It could be
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: a textbook. It's sort of a tome. Sorry, I have
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: to hold it up since it matches my jacket, so well,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: oh it does. Yeah. Anyway, it's got artists in it.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: It has a lot of research. It starts with neuroanatomy
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: and evolution. Dan Levitton has a chapter. So many well
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: known researchers in this area are in it. So it's
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: a good place to start. And I always tell you
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: don't feel you have to read the whole thing. But
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: there are sections on childhood development, on disorders of aging.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: But as you said, now we have this mental health crisis,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: and so engaging with art is extremely helpful, and it's
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: also so ideally something you do with other people.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Right and well. Neurological disorders of all types. I think
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: some of the remarkable ones we hear about are people
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: who have Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, are certain movement disorders, memory disorders,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: and somehow music brings out something totally healthful in people
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: that you know otherwise seem catatonic or out of it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: It's the last memory that we lose. I've asked scientists
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: about this, since there's nobody knows exactly why some people
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: are now saying it's because it's embedded in the deepest
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: part of the brain, so it's slightly protected from the disease.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And there's also a huge emotional component to memory, and
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: so music invokes emotion right away, and we remember those
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: songs from important events in our lives, whether it's marriage,
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: of graduation, or any of those things. But people come
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: alive when they're engaged with the music that they remember
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: from those years, usually teen through early twenties. It's when
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: we're forming important relationships as well. So the idea is
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: to try to figure out if there are ways of
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: sort of slowing down the progression of diseases like that,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: if there are ways of maintaining this connection between people
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: and their families. But anybody who's seen it knows, and
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: it creates community.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I know in my case. I was listening to the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Grateful Dead channel yesterday and one of the interviewees talked
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: about was the incredible community that exists around this. I'm
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: assuming an opera. In other areas, it's similar. My mom
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was like an occult, especially when it came to Wagner,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: which was not I think what you sang, but.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Well, one time I was saying in BYROI one time
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: in Meser's Anger, So I got the T shirt?
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, good? Yeah. I mean I don't know why that
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: one in particular is more of a cult, but it
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: feels like it to me.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I think it's because in order to be part of it,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you have to invest a lot of time. These operas
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: are four to six hours long, and they're epic, the
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: stories and travel.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: She would go all over. Wow, she was serious, Yeah,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: very seriously into it.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: We call them ring heads because oh that's cool.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: So music engages nearly every region of the brain simultaneously.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Why is that complexity so important when we talk about
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: music and healing.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: The thing that helped me really understand why this was
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: important to look at carefully and research is evolution, is
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: the fact that it's been with us for so long
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: it likely predates speech. It was very important for the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: tribal connection that we had for connecting with other people
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: early on when it meant life and death, and it's
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: just never gone away. We evolved so slowly that it's
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: all still there, which is why when the pandemic hit,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: people wanted to reach out to other people and they
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: couldn't do it physically. They immediately started being expressive and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: creating balconies and roofs, and it was remarkable how quickly
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: that happened, and everyone remember, oh right, this is important.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: If you'd launched into it. I really think it helped
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: you get through the pandemic, certainly mentally definitely. So I
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: guess that really helped clarify about where this field stands
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: and how far we have to go. So you and
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I are sitting partnering on this for a reason. Where
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: are we and where do we want to go?
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I loved that we're funding fellowships because I really felt
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: strongly that we need to strengthen the pipeline for the research.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: And because it is early days, I mean, but the
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: fact that somebody doing actually trying to do an implant
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: for a patient with epilepsy and they can while they're
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: waiting for a seizure. They'll the last patient. Do you
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: mind if we try a music experiment? So they're discovering
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: a lot about how Edward Change is a doctor who
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I'm most familiar with doing this, about how we process sound,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: about how we process or predict, we, unlike other mammals,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: can predict what's going to happen in a musical phrase
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: or harmony, and we kind of love it when we
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: hear something that we don't expect but not too strange.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: It's just learning about the basic science is really fascinating.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: And then the clinical science as well. There's been a
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: lot done and I think you can see all of
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: this on the NIH website. I think it's still there
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: under Integrated Medicine. But I work closely also with neuro arts.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And the blueprint was devised by Susan Meg Samon and
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Ruth Katz and its combination between JOHNS Hopkins and the
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Aspen Institute, and it's it's a big umbrella. It includes
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: our experiences in nature, the built environment, architecture of the humanities.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: It's all aesthetic experiences that affect the brain and the body.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: But I mean I've heard walking out of nature right
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: and being outsigh hugely healing.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: That's my go to that lifts me immediately. I mean,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: music is my job, so it's a little bit harder
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: to find musical experiences that are oh wow, this is new.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Well, you need to go to more dead shows, dead
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: cover bands with me. We'll get you into that.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's true. God, that was amazing. But today,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you know, I went outside, I did some work in
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: the garden and I, you know, immediately felt just sense
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: of joy. It's beautiful, it's spring, is it?
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Everything? Is that? The smell? Is that, the sound of
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the bird like? Is that music? Like? Is it all
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: of it that happens out there?
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think it's the air too. The air is moving.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Everything is moving, and now the green it's changing. When
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: you think that one of the invariants to being a
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: human being is that we all love a landscape like
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: the horizon, because the horizon, I think this meant something
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: to us since the beginning of mankind, and it signifies beauty.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: And maybe it's because when you were at the top
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: of the horizon you felt safer. I don't know. And
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: we all also have a predilection for beauty and the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: human face usually symmetry. So it's these kinds of things
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: are the basic science.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Hanging out with Mickey, he kind of does art with it.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: So when you do drums in space now at the sphere,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they'll keep going back there. I
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: hope they continue to do it. But he's got these
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: paintings and art that kind of goes with it and
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: with the vibration. So I think there's something about that
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: experience that was unique to all of us because we
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: used to hear drums in space and a lot of settings,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: but not like this.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Yes. Well, and I also thought that the images that
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: were created for their performance at the Sphere were so
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: mind blowing because of the iconography that they had since
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: the beginning of the Dead. It's still relevant. People still
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: love it. And the animations. I mean, it was just
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I took a lot of little videos because I said,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Mickey is just going to be again. He said maybe not,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: so I thought, oh, I have to capture this.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: I experienced it. It was dramatic and.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: That's all improv that's improvisation too, and they're fantastic.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: He and I talked about the concept of tones and
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: frequencies and there are some that are more therapeutic than others.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And I guess that's what some of the science that
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: this program could uncover, right, that we might have very
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: specific targets when it comes to exactly what frequency has
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: real impact on a certain part of the brain. Is
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: that thing?
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Well, the most example I know is from MIT doctor
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Lee WAITSI is studying what forty hertz vibration can do
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: to clean up amyloid plex and tangles in the brain.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: So someday we might go to CBS and go into
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: a booth and get brain hygie. That's sort of the idea.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: But it's working in mice, so they're just I think
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: they're starting to apply it to people. And it works
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: with light as well. It's a very particular type of vibration,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: but I believe Mickey's Drone calls it the bean.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: It's really wonderful, not the drones in the air, right,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: it sounds.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's a very deep bass. Well, the forty
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: hertz vibration is also extremely low.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: No, I still can't hear anything after that, but like
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: he said, it actually gets into your body more than
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: what you're hearing the vibration. Yes, that's what I guess.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: The tuning forks and some of these other ideas are
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: sort of an ultrasound treatment, right.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Or the bulls that vibration, but all of that is
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: incredible or you know, I just worked with the Boston
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Symphony for the last ten days and just being able
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: to sit and hear them play the Woorshak's New World Symphony.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: When you see one hundred people listening to each other
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: and playing and sync on a stage, something that's really
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: beautiful and historic. It's so healing.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: So why is it so important to get behind scientists
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: who are working on this music theory and the neuroscience
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: of music.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: It's so important in our society. It's the way everything
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: is set up, especially in healthcare, that we have to
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: have rigorous science in order to prove the interventions that
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: we'd like to see in healthcare. So, for instance, if
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: we're talking about Alzheimer's, or we're talking about pain or
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Parkinson's disease, any disorders of movement also are hugely helped
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: by music and rhythm. So all of that has to
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: be proven with science and otherwise it's not going to happen.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: So what we'd like to see is this really across
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: the board. So they have it a Houston Methodist. Now,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: I was just there and it started out as an
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: initiative to help artists who had dysphonia and different issues
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: with the playing carpotonnel syndrome. They have lots of those
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: kinds of issues, and now it's embedded in all of
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: the healthcare system there. It's the largest hospital system in
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: the country, even just to have creative arts therapies for
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: chills who were afraid, who are experiencing pain or having
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: any kind of testing. They're terrified. And if they have
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: a relationship with a therapist, a music therapist, and they sing,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: they can calm down, they can breathe, and it's so
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: much better for them than drugs. So there are a
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: lot of uses for it, but in order to build
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: it up in our system, we have to have a
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: lot of research.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: So what does success look like if we do this right?
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: What's the dream?
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Well for just life in general flourishing, if we know
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: how to incorporate the arts in our everyday existence, which
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I'm now the poster child. So I go outside, I'd
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: go to museums, I'd go to theater, I go to concerts.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I love it all. I'm interested in color. Now, do
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: you know Gertzu, the greatest German poet, was completely engrossed
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: in color therapy. Get a yellow dining room because it
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: created joy for the guests who visited his house. You know,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: this is the eighteenth century. It should be a pillar
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: like nutrition, exercise, sleep, those are pillars of health. This
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: should be like a creative health should be one of
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: our pillars. So that's one.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Thing, particularly music or does it matter?
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Music is what has the most research so far, so
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: it's most proven. And then the other piece is strengthening
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: these all of these initiatives that are being created for
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: really working in a clinical setting with children or in
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: terms of elder care or mental health and getting them
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, think about a psychiatric drugs or psilocybin. None
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: of those studies are done without a music intervention alongside.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Right, And that's all coming fast and furious.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, Yeah, all of it has a trip that
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: is designed to go with music. So you come up,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: then they bring you back down. It invokes whatever hallucinations
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: will be helpful to you. And part of it is
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: an awareness situation, making people aware that this can be
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: really helpful to us, especially when you think about how
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: fragile society is. As we lose funding for medicaid and
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: lose funding for biomedical research, people will need more support,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I think. And these initiatives, especially the therapies are low cost.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it would seem not expensive, yeah.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Not at all. And there are no drugs. It's non pharmaceutical.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: So the hospitals who have discovered it and found it
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: to be incredibly useful alongside standard medical practice. Are thrilled
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: that it's there.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I always wondering that the long waiting in the er,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: You know why I don't have that calming music?
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: I know, Yes, it's true and drumming circles. For healthcare
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: providers too, they're stressed, they're morale sometimes an issue, They're overworked.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Right, healthcare we talk about this a lot, that we're
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: not really replenishing but treating our healthcare workers.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Right, yes, So, Jim, we have to get an army
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: of people like us who want to support this research.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: And well, let's talk about that. So in pursuing private philanthropy,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: what are you learning about inspiring people to donate? Music's
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: universally recognized and appreciated for its healing powers. What are
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: people not getting or are.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: They It's a big step I think for a lot
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: of people to understand that music and also, frankly, movement
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: goes with music too, because for Parkinson's patients, movement is
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: part of it, the rhythm piece. They have to kind
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: of really think about it. That's why this book is helpful.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I'm working on a TV series right now that can
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: really help people understand what's in the pipeline. But again,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: as research goes, again, this is not expensive, so it's
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: worth to gamble.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: It is, I would tend to agree. I mean, biomedical
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: research costs.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: So much more, yes, hundreds of millions.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: But we just need some people to give. I'll put
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: at the end of this podcast some places you can
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: go to and donate, because five dollars, twenty dollars doesn't matter,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: but will take a lot more. And we got to
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: find some really cool, rich people that want to give
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: to this cause. Absolutely, because I think a lot of
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: people out there have experienced this benefit of music, particularly
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: in healing around caregiving and loss and grief and all
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Definitely, yes, Well, palliative care, that's another huge area where
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: music is extremely important. It helps families to heal, it
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: helps the person the loved one also cope with that journey.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: You've been referring to it as art therapy. Why is
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: it because your book's music in the mind, but you
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: refer to art therapy as sort of the big umbrella
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: that encompasses so much. Is music kind of the common thread?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Or most of my experience with the nih was with
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: music because that's what they were studying at that time,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: But there are other art forms. The last chapter in
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: the book is about neuro arts, and to me, arrow
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: arts presents the broadest kind of potential because people can
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: come to it with their own interests. If you'd like
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: to paint, if you like to doodle, if you whatever
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: it is that you really enjoy, it can be a
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: source of comfort, of calm or anxiety, reducing any kind
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: of activity that artistic reduces anxiety by for in a
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: short period of time. So it just makes it a
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: little more expansive. But the bulk of the research that
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: we have so far is definitely with music.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I also think doesn't music go with
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: all that? Yeah? Absolutely, if you're walking in nature, a
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: little music, I mean there's music going on in nature.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: But unless I'm listening to your broadcast, of course, Oh.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure everyone's walking with it. I do see
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: people with the headphones on. I figure they're listening to me.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: That's rights exactly for me.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: More of that Renee too. We need that not only
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: give to this initiative, but listen to this podcast.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And we should mention my new record that's coming out
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: because it's so unusual. Please and it's called The Fiddle
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: and the Drama, and many of you would know that
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: as a Joni Mitchell song, which is on it, but
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: it's with Baila Fleck and a lot of Nashville stars.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: And the only track we've released so far is my
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: track with Dolly Parton.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: If you told me a year ago I'd be recording
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: with Dolly Parton, I would have laughed. But yeah, it's exciting.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Even with Mickey Hard. I don't think it's that biggest
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: stretch is that everyone wants to sing with you. You're
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: pretty well known in the music world.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I do like to branch out a little bit, you know.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I made a rock album, so that's that's about as
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: far I think as an opera singer could go. But
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: this was a real joy working with Terry Douglas and
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Vince Gill and such great singers Sierra Hall and Sarah
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Jarrow's and if O'Donovan. So I'll be at to tell
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: you write bluegrass festival. Even my kids want to come
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: So bluegrass all right, that's kind of cool. I have
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of friends that are blue fans. It's not
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: necessarily my favorite, but Dolly Parton is God, I really
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: like her. You think we can get her involved in
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: this initiative?
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be amazing?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll keep brainstorming and we've got a lot of
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: people to pull in. I think that's part of it.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: We're kind of building the plane will or flying it right.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: It feels like that. It feels like a lot of
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: my entrepreneurial ventures.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Where we want to get going.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: It's going. We got some good news today, So I
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: think we can probably commit to certainly some foundational fellowships
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: this year. Yes, and we'll have a little PSA at
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: the end that you don't need to be here for,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: but that will tell people where to go and how
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: to find information about the program and how to give
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: and how to sign up and all the good banks
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: that we want. So, look, a question I always ask
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: before I get things wrapped up. Since we're called get
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: real with Jim Weiss, what are you getting real about
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: right now in your life and career?
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I'm getting real about work life balance. At a certain
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: point in life, you think, wow, how many years do
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I have? You start to wonder. Nobody knows how to
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: answer that question, right, So then it's thinking, well, how
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: do I want to spend that time and just trying
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: to make sure that I'm enjoying myself despite the stress
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: of what's happening in the world, that I'm having meaningful
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: time with my family and friends. And so I'm working
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: at that because I have tended my adult life to
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: be much more sort of focused on work, which I love,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: but I think it's time to kind of balance it
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: out a bit.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Well, you're heavily scheduled. I could relate. I watch your schedule.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: It's like, are you driven by your schedule or are
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: you driving the schedule?
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Little, it should be the latter, but they go
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: hand in hand.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Well, I think these projects you're working on with different
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: artists is a really cool way to engage people. Yeah,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: let's look at every chance with all those efforts, like
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: and tell your ride. I would hope from this age
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: that you get to talk about music in the mind
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: and we'll give you that CG to put up. That's
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: a good audience.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: I think that's a perfect audience for it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is one thing in your travels we need
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to incorporate more. So we will. So this is a
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: quick lightning round before we let you go, called Rene's
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Epic moments. I say a moment in your career and
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: you say how it felt or what was happening behind
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: the scenes. Your full Bright scholarship in Europe.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, that was an extraordinary experience, very challenging to learn
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: to speak fluent German and to study in German and
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: to be alone overseas. I cried on the plane the
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: whole way there, and one woman finally turned me and said,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: be sure you want to do this. And it was
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: great because you were.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Saying I don't want to sing Wagner. I mean, what
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: was it now?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I was afraid. I was just a free such a
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: scary thing to do on my own.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: And where was it in Germany?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Frank for the least German city, of course?
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Oh? Nice? Yeah? Are you still close to people you
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: met then?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't stay close. I did stay close to people
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: for a long time that I was housed with, et cetera.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: But I'm very comfortable when I go there and I
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: still have friends.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Right, And you made it, you got through it.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was fentest great.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Singing with Pavarati on Live from Lincoln Center.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: That was first of all I fell in love with
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: his singing in that experience. I wasn't that familiar with
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: his singing. I'd never heard him live on the opera stage.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: But it was the purest and I still tell young
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: singers all the time, go listen to him, watch him
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: on YouTube. He as the most perfect vowel structure. It's magical.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: That said, if he wanted me to cut off on
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: a high note, he would grab me by the arm
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: and just squeeze. He was in control.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Twenty twenty three is Kennedy Center honore ceremony.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I'm going to cry. That was so thrilling. Oh my gosh,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: that was one of the really the most exciting moments
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: of my life.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: My wife, And did you ever think that would happen?
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Well, you hoped. I put things like that and I
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: don't think about them. Really, it's it happens, and I'm
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: so grateful that it happened when it did, because I
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: don't know what the future of the Tennese Center is.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I hope it's okay.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Was it you that told me that you continue to
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: talk to Leontine Price.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, she's almost a hundred and every time I talk
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: to her, she sings at high seat every time.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, what's the high seat? Can you sing it
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: for me?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: No, because I would have to warm up and you
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: would not want to hear it over soon got you.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: But she's just an inspiration to me. Every time I
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: talk to her, I feel so much joy.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I remember her in particular. My mom was
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: a big fan. So that's cool. Singing the Sound of
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Silence with Paul Simon and the Philadelphia Orchestra.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Wow, I can't believe you found that. Yes, that was
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: incredible And we talked shopped the whole time because he
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: wasn't feeling well, so I was giving him all my
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: kind of voice tricks. But what a thrill to sing
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: that song with him. It was okay, I mean because
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: I did the high part and so it sort of
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: worked with the orchestra. It was beautiful.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: So were their voice tricks. You have to do that
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to get out on stage. I got sometimes.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you have to practice and figure it
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: out and get the right key. And because sometimes I'm
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: maybe a huge fan about John but I sang with
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: him Wants too at a Juilliard function and it could
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: be a party tea. It's so funny because I'm completely
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: in the wrong register and I can't do it. And
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: it's awful.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: He sounds great, Wow, amazing. Just bring me back because
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: it's my favorite topic. Singing with Dead and Company at
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the sphere And how are we going to get you
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: and Mickey back together?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I hope he does it again. They have
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: such a fantastic band now. I think they'll do it.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I do if they have to use those videos again.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Was so fantastic. You know they're building a new sphere
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: here in DC.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Well then it seems very possible, right.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just meant to go, and Micky started
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: doing this kind of drumming sequence so people could go
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: use the bathroom, and then they stopped leaving because it
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: was so good.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: We're gonna have to tell them when we talked, we
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: need another one of these works with Nat.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: He's got to do it. Meet Phil Lesh to be
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: able to work with them. John Mayer with such an
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: amazing musician and singer, and I think he would do
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: them again. And all the new players are so incredible.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: All right, well let's pull in all these things. Thanks
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: for sharing your memories, your thoughts about your career, I mean,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: thanks for giving back through music. I'm really excited to
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: be your partner on this and look forward to the
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: best being yet to come. Thanks grank Yes, I agree.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: All right, take there.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, thanks for watching. I really appreciate that you
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: take the time to listen to this and tune in,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: so please subscribe, follow I've got a lot of amazing
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: guess you're going to learn a lot and you're going
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: to feel a lot better because did it.