Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Enneagram Four and Limitation | Finding God in the Fenced-In Places with Sara Hagerty

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The Enneagram Four and Limitation | Finding God in the Fenced-In Places with Sara Hagerty · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friend, welcome to the Enneagram four month of the Wholehearted Enneagram podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm popping in here to give some special announcements because first, if you were a part of the Wholehearted Enneagram Summit, thank you so much.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I truly think this is one of the most meaningful gatherings we've ever had together.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Even though we've had quite a few, I am truly sitting with so much of what came out of those three days together.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you did miss it, I do have an on-demand all access pass available at simply wholehearted.com, but only through October 15th.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I put the links in the show notes.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the other reason why I'm hopping on to give a little insight before the conversation unfolds is that this Enneagram 4 month has definitely unfolded differently than I had planned.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of on brand for a month dedicated to the Enneagram 4.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I do think one of the many things a four teaches us is that unplanned, interrupted and seasons not going the way you imagine, well, they aren't detours from the story.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: They are the makings of a good story.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, last week Deanna and I recorded and shared a beautiful foundation episode for the Enneagram 4 month.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: But this week we're going to jump to a deep Enneagram 4 conversation, but one that we actually had for the summit.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why I wanted to share this one in particular is that I think it's going to stay with you.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah Hagerty is not only a dear friend in an Enneagram 4, but I really think she is one of the most honest voices I know when it comes to grief, limitations, and the slow sacred work of letting God meet you in the places you didn't choose.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah has seven kids.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: She also has beautiful, extraordinary writing that she shares on Substack.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And she just has a way of naming what the rest of us are quietly living.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I find it extraordinary.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so so grateful for her and grateful that I could share this one conversation with you.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think you will find it especially meaningful if you're feeling fenced in by something you did not choose and hope feels far away.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have been working hard to make something move and it simply isn't moving, then you're gonna want to listen to all of this all the way to the end.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: As we get going here, we're gonna talk a lot about limitations because I have witnessed you live within them and do it with great wisdom and beauty.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: But before we unpack all of that, give us a little glimpse in your world.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: What's the day-to-day look like?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we just started school, so you know, the day-to-day is pretty crazy.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have seven kids, but I only have four living under my roof, which feels like a breeze.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Comparatively.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Compared.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them is basically a roommate.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Those of you who have young adult children know when they transition to be roommates, it's pretty great.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got three.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And also still doing soccer practice and ballet and all the things.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And helping kids learn about the world around them.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, yeah.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you just mentioned your writing.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not only is it something that you love, but it is a gift that you possess.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I have been blessed by your words again and again, many, many books.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: But in particular, I want to kind of point out the substack because not only do you have a gift for those who have upgraded to the all access pass of three months in your substack.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I kind of want to, you framed the community in there as a home for people who are feeling or maybe are the hidden and fenced in.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: You use that phrase.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to spend some time talking about that because you do write regularly into this space.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And not only is my friend gonna want to go check it out, but what has that meant to you?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And who is that really for?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I think it's for everybody.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think for you did a temperature check on your the seven people you interact with most in your life.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would say probably universally, most people feel hidden.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Most people feel like their limits are constraining them from what they really want to do and be and what they thought this season of life would be.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so this space, my substack space, is just for those of us who are kind of waking up to the reality that you don't sort of grow out of those things.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think maybe the more that you grow in God, the more you actually end up feeling more like, gosh, I thought this season would look this way and it's really looking this way.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought I might finally be seen and noticed for this element of my life, and I'm actually feeling more hidden here.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So this Substack is really like, I think of it as a space.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: If social media weren't what it was, we would maybe communicate more like I do on Substack on social media, but because it's become to me, it feels like a train station.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much or a subway station, there's just so much going on, so much noise, people going in lots of different directions.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Substack's a quieter space for people who want to just be a little bit more thoughtful in how they engage with their content.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love that phrase, the the hidden and fenced in, because you are naming something that people are experiencing and living but haven't found language for it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or it just feels like frustrations and it's a no, it's a closed door, it's a burden, it's what I have to do.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: So what is that difference between feeling limited and actually being limited?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And is there a difference?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, that's such a as a seven, because as a seven, like you're talking my language, but you're speaking to it as a four, reminding it's a universal ache in different ways.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think in reality, we are just limited.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: We were made in flesh, we are butt dust.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is a reality too, every day I wake up with less time and less capacity than I actually want and desire.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the feeling of being limited is perhaps only increasing the more that we have access to more things through our phone.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like I in 10 minutes on my phone can be finding health hacks.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of my thing, like health and optimizing hacks, but then I can also find home organizing hacks, and then I can be thinking through different strategies for writing in 10 minutes.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: And but the reality is I'm still just one person.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I am feeling more limited the more I have access to information and resources, and I'm still stuck in this frame in this small body.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in 2026, we are, I mean, I look around me, people are a lot more people are sick, a lot more people are experiencing hardship.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I actually was just emailing today with a reader who was also many, many moons ago, was one of my young life kids.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she had her sister died suddenly, and she's experienced prolonged infertility.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I just was saying to her over email, because some of us still do correspond over email, you are not alone.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like what you are experiencing in terms of sudden loss and profound prolonged loss.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I look around me and I'm thinking most of the people in my world are living in that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I hate it.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish it weren't the case, but I think it's just true.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: We are actually living limited too.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we are so much.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate there ended up being a few conversations in the summit speaking to and distinguishing between some of those health limitations or how God can meet us in those in the chronic illness and chronic pain and loss and grief, so many elements of it.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for you, you have a lot of stories, but what's some of the specific season?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about those chapters where a limitation felt insurmountable and it was working against you, but then the Lord met you in it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Real live right now, this next week, Nate and I celebrate our 25th anniversary.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we made it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, our kids are at a stage where it would be the most natural time to be able to travel and do a fun trip.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we have some flexibility to do that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we got a child who's struggling in such a way that it's probably not the best time for us to do it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so very practically, I'm like finding myself rounding the corner on our 25th anniversary and just feeling grumpy that we're going to dinner.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And more than grumpy, like underneath it all, which I think is the reality for a lot of our limitations, is we experience them as we're just annoyed.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: But underneath it all is just this grief that, gosh, we've had so much loss, which we have experienced a profound amount of loss in the last few years.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a little break in the clouds, and couldn't we just do this trip?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't have the here's how God broke in part of that story yet.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say one of the things that I found, which I think comes from when we really lean in to letting ourselves grieve our limitations and name them and not just be like totally annoyed by them, is that I found myself just very naturally praying, God, would you provide a way for this anniversary to really be marked in a unique and special way?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And even asking God, would you provide a way for us to go in some way to go on a trip?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's actually just present.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say it's kind of minor in a more major way.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think if there was a year about three years ago, my son has Lyme disease, and there was a year for that for a long stretch of time for many months where he was in bed about three days a week and he was nine and ten.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And any of you parents listening who've had a sick kid, any measure of sickness, it is maddening.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would, and I have taken on portions of his sickness because I also have Lyme disease, but never to the extent that he had it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the time that he was like just the mind-numbing.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would, I remember going to morning workout classes and having my phone right near me, waiting for a text from my husband.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: He woke up sick again, he's in bed, he's throwing up again, you know, and me just going, no, and then trying to figure out specialists and what's the path through for him and who the heck has a kid who's this sick at this age, and feeling like he is so full of energy and so buoyant.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yet watching his spirit be crushed, just him crying to us, saying, Why me?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now, several years later, I will say, walking through that valley, I feel like put me in a place of awakening to that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: We don't get to just choose our path.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we have these big visions for our life.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And not that I'm opposed to having some measure of vision, but I think so much of life is actually just accepting the story that God has given you.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I have felt like looking back on my on our road with Bo, some of it it's been just accepting, God, you have a story that we don't have.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And right now he's 12 and it's still such a significant piece of his story.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I imagine that maybe when he's 30 and 40, I'm gonna look back and go, this was a piece of him and it needed to happen.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the the God part of it is me going, more of our life is a mystery than I ever thought.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maturity is actually leaning it away from certainty and into mystery.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't get to do that by reading a book or listening to a couple of that way.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: It can give us language, a starting point, an awareness, but it there's no solve, right?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's no silver bullet to any of this.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord has to meet us in the middle of the mess and not through a change of circumstance in order for us because it's a circumstance and not through a great sermon.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say, okay, so I didn't I haven't I didn't ask you if I'm allowed to do this.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do whatever.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm game.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I have finished your book and it so blessed me, y'all.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I told Amy, I probably told her three times throughout reading it, like, I know that I am one of your best friends, and so you're gonna feel like I'm saying this because of that, and I'm not, you guys.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where this ties in for me is no, we aren't gonna be changed through a book and we're not gonna be changed through a sermon.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that I look at when I look at some years of really profound loss is the Lord brought stories into our life through people and also through books.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm a book geek, so like nerdy novels.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord brought stories in to give me a framework when I couldn't even name the framework.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So in the background, it's like here I am standing on this stage that is full of loss and full of limitations, and yet the background keeps changing.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's these stories that God keeps bringing in that are full of life and fruit and promise, and you're gonna make it.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's people who went before you who made it, and God's doing something.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like your book was that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I really, so here's the wild thing.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't even know how much people will know when they listen to this about your book, but Amy is giving kind of some exposition on the Enneagram and how it moves into our story and how we can grow in self-awareness and awareness of our relationship with God, but simultaneously she's telling these stories that are very engaging.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just felt like even I was reading the chapters that weren't about Enneagram force, I was learning passively.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was like you sneaking in the back door and going, Here's little deposits of what God is doing that you might not be able to name exactly, but the backdrop is changing for you as your circumstances aren't.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, little plug that I will say one of the things that was a profound gift during my time of limitations with Bo, but also currently is story and the power of story that I think just can shape our reality.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: We went through probably a year and a half of just really intense loss.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband just read so many books on suffering.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't like those books actually changed him, but they did change the landscape around him a little bit to go, oh, I'm not the first who's been here, and I'm not gonna be the last.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And God is moving.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like your book was that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there's I didn't ask permission, but I will say, y'all, and some of you might be like, Well, I'm not readers.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is the book for you.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna get there and be like, Oh, I'm not a reader, I can't get through this.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: You actually will probably read it.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I read it so quick, you're gonna probably read it so quick and then be like, Oh, well, maybe I want to listen to the audiobook so I can hear it again.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Fred.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, thank you very much.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was big.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will try not to edit that out, but you may not.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna actually bring it up again and say, and if you didn't hear me say it the first time, it means she edited this out.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I love it.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: But story has been a healing place, and that is why I wove it in.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I have also learned that from you because to be fair, I want to continue some of what you said there in that it was the sharing your story in a safe place that brought groundedness, I know for you, but also you've been that person.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to that point of being able to read through other stories where it normalizes some of the loss and the pain and the suffering that we experience that we don't expect to because we have this Western mindset of it's all going up from here, up and down, and we will conquer.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and not that we aren't victorious in Christ, but does that mean victorious in all the earthly trappings that the Lord is actually saying, I have better for you?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would like to say too, in the story I've seen unfolding in you, and maybe you could expand on this contrast.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have seen what uh you described as a current limitation now.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Four years ago, it would have felt really big and maybe shaken you even more or felt more disruptive and live limiting than it does now, where I see you go through this, you're able to name it, but you're working through it in a more grounded way.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's something that has shifted for you.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think you could name that or even some of the practices you say it?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I do feel like we need to know, especially when we're feeling especially limited.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And y'all listening, it doesn't need to be.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not the reason I share the 25th anniversary story is that's a relatively minor thing.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: It might just be, you know, I think if my husband tore his calf, bless his heart on his 49th birthday playing pickleball.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Rude.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to know a surefire way, no, I shouldn't say surefire, pickleball's amazing, and maybe we should all who are over 40 avoid it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that isn't major in the scheme of things.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or you might be like, gosh, I'm just a couple weeks off of running because I sprained my ankle, or our car, we're down to one car because we can't pay to have this fixed.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Those things you might put in the category of minor, but I will, I just want to validate that any limitation on where you want to be and what you want to be doing is worth noting and actually worth even grieving.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I that's I talk about that a lot in my book.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: That I think we skip steps and we skip the grieving, and then it just comes out sideways and we're just grumpy about it.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it's sweet to hear you say that because I have felt like surely there has to be fruit for enduring so much hard.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think of Romans 5.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of my favorite verses that says, suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at my life on that spectrum and I go, I think, which is wild, even just to consider that hope doesn't just get born when you're 20 and you have amazing skin and you can conquer everything and you can stay up till 3 a.m.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: and barely even feel it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's not hope.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's youth and it's amazing.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not real hope.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, those of us who have been through the ringer, like there's a track we're on.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, even as you're saying that, so a real life story is we had to move out of our home for eight, nine months for major mold remediation.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And essentially, our home that we love was torn down to the studs and rebuilt.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Amy was in the thick of it with me.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So awful.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of tears, lots of loss.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Insurance didn't cover a dime.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So just the sadness of that and the loss of that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this was in the throes of losing a lot of other things.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, on the scale of things, losing our home for that period of time and so much money.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of minor.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is kind of minor because there's other things I can't actually share right here.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: But in the midst of it all, we didn't discover until maybe, I don't know, months later that my jewelry was some of my best jewelry was stolen during that time.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: We had so many workers in the house that we didn't realize kind of a big story.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: We moved for a long time and weren't even able to be in our house.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so there were so many workers, and we didn't, when we first moved out, we thought it was just gonna be a little thing.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we didn't secure all these valuables.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I discovered months later, Nate's great-grandmother's gold bangle bracelet with the inscription was stolen.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: My ring that my parents gave me when I turned 16, a clutter ring, gold stolen.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: My Tiffany's bracelet, my sister engraved for me when I was in her wedding stolen.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just my very, very best jewelry.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sad.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, I'm not negating that if this is what you were walking through, it would not be.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's sad and it can't be replaced.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not even gonna try to replace it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember after realizing it, being like 10 years ago, this would be the story of my year.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I would be so heavy and I wouldn't know.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Just a loss that can't be replaced.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: But here in this moment, I'm going, man, this totally stings.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I think about it, I feel a little sick to my stomach.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But and this isn't me just putting on a happy, clappy face.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is me going, gosh, in the scheme of things, I have lost so much more.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And God carried me, and I'm okay.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do think there's something that when we lean into the limitations, like, and by lean in, actually going, This stinks, yeah, and I'm gonna grieve it, and I'm gonna mark a season and say, God help me, and I'm gonna cry it out and say, This is really hard, and I'm gonna receive what God has for me there.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Coming through it on the other side, I really do think we get that endurance.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Suffering produces some translations say endurance, not perseverance.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we get it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then we start to go, I think I'm gonna be okay because God carried me, and we have this arsenal of stories where God starts to build up stories of us going, This stinks, but I'm gonna be okay.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: One of the many gifts that you have given me in friendship is you.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Your gift of being a four.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And part of being a four is, it's true, part of being a four is being able to sit in grief, is be able to learn.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, girl, we don't sit in it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: We wallow in it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: We bathe in it.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's our home, baby.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is your home.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what's remarkable and why I want to give a little bit of airtime because my friend hearing and watching this needs to know you're not speaking from a place of a seven where it all works out and it's positive and feelings change.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: You are someone who sits in the grief.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it can become an identity, which absolutely leans to unhealthy.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: But so there's this a little bit of a tug of work because there's two things here.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: One, you've given me the gift of helping me stay in the grief longer.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: But also what you're speaking to is not letting it claim your identity and who you are and framing everything.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I know you've got wisdom, and I'm asking a spur-the-moment question, but could you delineate that a little bit and tease that out of what that looks like to work through the grief but not live there?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: 24-7.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I will say, in about two years ago, I sat with a counselor, one that's been a long time counselor of ours.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I basically said, Give me the handbook for going through suffering.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Surely you've seen so many people who've gone through loss like ours or worse.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And what do I give me the handbook?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he laughed.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And of course there's no handbook, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to live it.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the handbook is the Bible.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that's pretty complex.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing he gave us some interesting tips that I would not have considered myself, but one of them was celebrate.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like what I received from that was not celebrate the grief, but choose things to celebrate.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: What I received from that was this thing could be all-consuming.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually will become with my personality, it will be if I don't mark moments to go, let's have a dance party here.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's, and so I do, and I wouldn't say that I've done this like remarkably well, but I do feel like I feel like marking the little celebrations in the midst of limitations is really important.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the amazing gift in us having to move out of our house is we were gifted a home in the Pacific, on the Pacific for three and a half months.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And here we were, it was such an interesting crossroads of so much loss that happened at that time, not just with our home, but also in other areas that were even deeper than that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And waking up to whales breaching, and we we were on five acres overlooking the ocean.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was surreal.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we just set up traditions there.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: We just had our favorite beaches, and we had no money at that time because of spending every penny on our house.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we would instead of going out to eat, we've ordered two orders of French fries at this restaurant that was right on the beach, and that was our, we call it French fried beach night.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we cobbled together what we could at that time to go, there is really good, there are really good and beautiful things happening right now in the midst of some terrible loss.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it felt to me, who is wears my insides on the outsides and really does wallow in grief, that part of it was actually putting action to it, not just saying it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's we're gonna go to French Fry Beach every Sunday, which we did.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: We called it French Fry Beach.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And every Friday night is gonna be Fleming, where my son would surf, or not surf, but he'd do boogie boarding and it just felt like we're putting these markers in the ground, even though we really would just want to cry at home.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's something to actually choosing to celebrate, choosing to go roller skating when you don't want to, which I desperately missed uh doing with my best friends.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I so appreciate how you shared that because I would also say I have gotten to receive the benefits of you living into that because that has, I don't know if you've realized, but it's bled over in our conversations as a friend where I might be lamenting and we might be talking about these really hard things.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't rush to it, but you have this bent towards looking for those gold moments.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the light breaking through here?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it's a pinprick and a really dark hard moment, but in a way, not to shoot sunshine or just gloss over it, but to truly be able to see those moments, like the fry moments and the gift of that and the beauty of that.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you've practiced that now for years.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I see it, I witness it.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I've loved about watching the transformation in your life and really the fruit of formation, which is the hope here of being more like Christ, not just a four who can bring people into grief and can sit in it and own it and put to do that and also find those moments of joy and make note of it and celebrate it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's Well, if you think about it, that verse, uh that Romans verse, suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and character produces hope.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, I would think the people who are the most hopeful, and hope is very closely connected to joy.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: When you've been around somebody who has deep, deep hope, they do have joy, are the ones who have suffered the most.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in some ways, and I say that now, some people listening might be like, I haven't suffered, but I do want to give validation to the limitations that you're feeling are a form of suffering.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to wait until you've actually lost a child or until your marriage has ended for you to go, this is actually suffering.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want to give permission that those of you listening who have what you might call a lowercase s suffering, God allows that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, James says, consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is like we don't need to actually quantify how big your suffering is.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: God is offering this limitation to you.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the real gift is the more that we lean into it, instead of just like my 25th, like being sad that we don't, we're not taking a trip.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just being mad, there's a difference.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like mad is surface, sad is like actually, this really hurts.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: That like we just have some flexibility to do this and we can't, you know?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And letting myself go there, like ultimately, the more I lean into that, the real fruit is that I become a hopeful person.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be one of the most joyful people still in the loss that I've had.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think I can manufacture that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's actually just leaning into it and letting God, like letting yourself be exposed before God and going this really hard.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that will even distinguishing little S suffering is worth paying attention to.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean it feels little or insignificant.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's still real.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, the limitations can even, as you alluded to, the those days where your boy was sick and in bed.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And any of us who've been limited even for a day of sickness by someone that we were caring for, it's a big deal.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is a we have it's a disappointment.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have to say no to things, we have to rearrange things.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: It means we can't do maybe our what we had planned or what we'd hoped for.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so paying attention to the disappointment of that and not brushing over it.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's value there and where we can meet God in that.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask about something new that you have also been sharing.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it pairs really well with the limitations because it's this pilgrimage of slow.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one, I was captivated by how you phrased it.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I've also had the privilege of again witnessing some of the shift in your life, your processing in real time, the decisions you were making, just sharing it from a friend perspective.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know surrender has been part of this, and surrender is what we've been talking about and the limitations.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe give us a little bit of what you've been learning and what you've been unpacking even in SOAR and Substack.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it feels very real time.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I going into this year, I really felt the invitation from God to lean into slow, which is ironic because I have seven kids.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have every reason not to have slow.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe it's also good for somebody like me to go, what does it look like to lean into slow?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: When the reality is it's not like I'm gonna force my kids to not do fun things and to stay at home because we're all gonna be slow, you know?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, what does it look like real time?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm not many of my peers actually are launching their kids.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm launching some, but I still have a lot at home.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so this year has been just, I've done a lot of observing myself more than anything else and just noting like what is where is the frenzy coming from?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is a frenzy, not a fever pitch, like in not only in my life, but in so many lives around me that I'm like, where is this coming from?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I'm only two-thirds of the way through the year.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: One of the greatest observations, and I wish it was just much more poetical and larger theory, but I will say I have been astounded at the impact of my phone on my anxiety, on my ability to have perspective, on my focus in the word, on my conversation with God.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's been one of the biggest themes as I'm like trying to do all these things to tweak my schedule and kind of play with it and watch what happens when I lean into slow and really recognizing that the undercurrent of anxiety, the buzz, the AM radio in the background is more than my schedule.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's my phone.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not what I've expected to come away with this year, but I feel like I kind of canvassed for a lot of data and I'm looking and I'm observing, and I keep coming back to gosh, if there's one thing we all could tweak to slow our anxiety, to quiet our hearts, to receive more of the maybe 1990s version of God that we had.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not that he's 1990s, but like where we could sit for longer, where we could be more thoughtful, where we would think clearer thoughts that weren't from chat, you know?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we all need our chat, but yeah, but and so that's been my big takeaway, has been the impact of my phone on my life.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's put me in a place of going, I want to fight to put my phone back in its proper place and not have it be the central character in my life because it's been such a central character.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not even somebody who's doing a ton of scrolling because I really don't have the luxury of that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just talking like everyday life and communication.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm starting to realize like, I can't possibly maintain this pace of communication and access and content and information and not completely combust.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: The frenzy and the fractured mental space is think the painful thing that we all are carrying and maybe haven't named or don't know what to do with.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the invitation.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's going to be more voices.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: We do have some data out there of the data's finally showing, but it's, you know, but now we're all addicted.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: How are you going to shift it?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: What does that really look like?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: What is the practical?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Even as you've said, you have kids at home who aren't interested in slowing down.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Some of their personalities want to be out and about and do those things.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love to take this opportunity.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: You have the Substack, you have a free version, you can hear some of what you're processing and living out in real time there.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously, there's a gift for the all access paths to upgrade as well.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And to just hear more of your heart, read more of what you've been learning, the things that feel like are grounding you and settling you and creating more wholeness in the end, which this is what we're all about of taking that not in shame, but the fractured elements of our mind, of our heart, of our emotions and bringing them in honesty before the Lord and all of that.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's really good.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: As we wrap up here, I would love for you to share and just maybe speak to the woman who is feeling like she's fenced in and limited by something she didn't choose and circumstances.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And she's also thinking, I don't know how this is ever gonna change.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And hope, what could hope be?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would you want her to know about the Lord or how the Lord can meet her in these moments?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd first want to say you're not alone.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an epidemic, and I think it may also be God ordained, which is the worst thing to hear.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I know even theologically, some of us want to go, no, no, it's gotta be Satan, and it's gotta, and I actually don't want to get in the weeds of that, but I will say maybe let go of really trying to make that limit move.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wonder, I just want to plant a seed that like try it, experiment for a week if you went.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean experiment letting go, because that's a big long process, but even just entertaining the thought that like maybe it's a time to press pause on even interceding that this thing would change, interceding that this child would come home, interceding that this husband would change, interceding that we'd finally have the financial breakthrough, interceding that I'd finally get seen in my job.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I don't believe in prayer, but I just wonder if there's another avenue to pursue that like this isn't changing.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been working my tail off to try and get it changed, both in prayer and circumstances.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if my energy would be better used in going, I'm not, it's not moving.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you have for me here?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm suggesting like such a hard thing.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not suggesting something I haven't done.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like some there is there's two things in my life in particular that like anyone that I would share them with would go, surely God wants this for your life.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And absolutely it's a good thing.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I feel like some of the most profound change has happened in me related to both of these when I've gone, I can't move it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I can't change it.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so, God, I'm just gonna actually, yeah, it's the A word.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna accept that this is where you have me.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna start to ask, what might you have for me here?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's an that's a road, but it might be a more freeing road than you think.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Sarah, yes.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know that that's something I've been wrestling through as well, and would just echo you're speaking that from lived experience, and I would echo as well there's something really powerful, transformative, beautiful in that deliberate acceptance process of Lord, what do you have for me instead of trying so hard.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's good.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah, thank you.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing with us today in our authentic way, beautiful way, storied way.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a joy.
• 36:59
  unknown: Thank you.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram podcast.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuck point.