Latest / Work It Like A Mum / Work Isn’t Working for Women. Here’s Why!

Transcript

Work Isn’t Working for Women. Here’s Why! · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of equipment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and how they've overcome them to find their own versions of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Money, struggles, growth, lots, boundaries of balance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TikTok, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cozy, and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're proud to partner with UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the show.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to today's work it like a money podcast.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I am delighted to be chatting with Gemma Jackson.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Gemma is the head of DENI um intact insurance.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is it intact or if I said it wrong?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Intact insurance, yes.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna say it again.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do it again.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to this week's work it like a on podcast episode.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Today I am chatting with the um delightful Gemma Jackson.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: She is the head of DENI at um intact insurance, and we're gonna be talking today about the impact of some of the rollbacks in D ⁇ I focus um across the industry, what she is seeing um in her role and what some of um intact insurance competitors are perhaps doing.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're also gonna be talking a bit about her master's um degree, which she's recently um completed, which is really interesting.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's gonna be sharing the findings with us today as well, where she um did a master's in gender and sexuality studies.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know that there were some things that uh came up during her studies in her dissertation.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So she's very kindly gonna be sharing uh her findings um with us as well.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't this um the first time I interviewed Gemma for this podcast.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I interviewed her a few years ago, um where she was doing a similar role, but she's since been promoted.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the company where she was working previously has been bought as well, my intact.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's been uh some exciting changes in Gemma's life as well.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I have to get you back on because we had such a good conversation before, and we will link to that um the episode in the show notes.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to go back and have a listen to Gemma and I's conversation from a few years ago, um, you can have a listen.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, thanks for coming.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you for having me.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even remember, I've got a feeling it was in lockdown when we first got to be.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was yeah, it feels a long time ago.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've aged since.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I at the time I think I was very new to the role as well.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you were, you were, I remember.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Having a deeper understanding, not just from an experience perspective, but an academic perspective, is it's really interesting.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be interested to go, I loathe would loathe the sound of my own voice, but I'd be interested to go back and listen to because I think you joined from quite you'd come, you know.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know how much you want to bring up about it, but you joined DNI from quite a personal reason.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So well, not specific, um DNI.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I have been at what was RSA Insurance for 19 years now.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: We were rebranded under our new um business, Intact Insurance, late last year.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have been here and done loads of different things from underwriting to leadership to uh learning and development, and I moved into the DI space when just after George Floyd's murder, and it was very much centred around you know feeling a little lost at what I personally could do to draw change in my sphere of influence.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we were establishing some of our employee resource groups at the time, so I made a stepping stone into some of them before taking on a more broader specialism role.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if longer term my route into insurance came from a very personal space, which is kind of an offshoot of the work I do in the domestic abuse environment.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um whereas my background was in travel and tourism before I left it um and just abandoned but abandoned it through my personal experience and happened upon insurance in a train station.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: How did you happen upon it then?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Were they handing out they were handing out leaflets for underwriting roles?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um was at RSA.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: RSA at the time, yeah.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um my boyfriend at the time, my husband now knew somebody who worked at RNSA at RSA and said it was a really nice place to work, so I thought, why not?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um What were you doing in the travel industry?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I mean it was way back when we had travel agents and you sat at a desk and nicely boxed um everyone's holidays.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: I worked for Emirates for a little bit of time as well.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um not as glamorous as you'd want it to be.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um because they do look very glamorous when you got on the plane.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: You always feel quietly like I always feel very scruffy.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was definitely more on the operational side.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was really innovative, exciting um industry to be part of.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And had I had my time again, maybe I wouldn't have made that choice, but ultimately I'm glad I did because it it's led me to this.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you've obviously joined D and I.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: You joined at a point when everyone was talking about, I guess, quite positively, you know.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, you mentioned um what happened with George Floyd in the States, and it was really on everyone's lips about four or five years ago, and now it isn't.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've had organizations that have had DI roles and then they've not wanted to brand them as that because they fear a backlash.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are people?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing you know, peers as well in other organizations, what's the general feel about DENI at the moment and how it's perceived?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can be a little bit of a mixed bag depending on who owns your business.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So for some of our um American-owned organizations, it might look slightly different.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're a North American business, so again, it looks slightly differently, but a lot of organizations are rebranding rather than restricting and pulling back completely on DI initiatives.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, the problem that we're trying to fix in this space is ultimately balanced representation based on our demographics in the society and ultimately the customers that we're trying to service and the communities that we're supporting is having that measure in our mind of actually are we offering the best products and services to our our customers and our consumers based on who is servicing those those products.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it does draw back to the same message that we were putting into this at the very beginning, and I know this far predates the the George Floyd time, is that actually the most successful businesses do this really well, whether you call it DI, whether you call it inclusion, culture, engagement, whatever it is that you want to badge this as is fundamentally it's about people, it's about experience, and it's about culture.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I have never sat in a room with Donald Trump.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying I would ever want to, but I reckon if you actually sat down on a one-on-one basis with the harshest of critics, the end goals are ultimately to deliver the same result.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's just tweaking and reshaping it so it looks it looks in a way that supports the goal, and sometimes we do need to minimize some of that noise.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now we still um brand, if that's the word that you want to use, our support in this space is diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's no appetite to move away, to move away from that, but I think if it was harming the end goal, then I would be open to reshaping the narrative around it because ultimately it's about how we make our business inclusive for what is the end goal?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is the end goal the inclusiveness or the profit of both?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well well, there'll be an element of cost and profit, um, profitable growth aligned to it, but ultimately it's getting the biggest share of the market as is of is obviously one element of that, but you need to speak to the all demographics and all communities and not one of the biggest values in order to be able to get that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that there will be special specialisms in you know women-owned businesses that do really well and are really profitable because they think differently and perhaps more innovatively than some solutions that have been you know gone for for for centuries.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's around making sure the right people are in the room, and that doesn't always mean that the the the majority.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned that the companies that do really well they tend to be more inclusive.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean when you say really well and why do you think that is as well?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um what I'm talking about are things like one profit, obviously bottom line, um, engagement, authentic engagement, you know, where people really feel that they can be themselves and their policies and the support that's wrapped around the benefits, and it isn't always linked to pay, are really authentic and transparent.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't um, you know, greenwash or pinkwash to use that terminology, our you know, shop front to say what we're inclusive, but actually, when you come in the business, it's very different.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, that whole concept of people being able to raise reasonable adjustments when they've got needs that need accommodating, you know, certainly in the in the space of women and working, how to to speak to your expertise, we help celebrate flexibility and what that looks like.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it might not just be part-time, it could be compressed or job share, it might be um expanded or reduced hours, you know, it's looking at things more binary than we've looked at before.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it is complicated, it there'sn't a one you know approach that will fit and solve for all of that, but I think we can be quite insular as organisations, as industries, uh, looking at how we meet our needs, especially in markets like we're in at the moment, where you know cost of living is up and overheads are more stretched.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some of the things that perhaps people are unable to think as innovatively as they could do in.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, why do you think the businesses then are more successful?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because you said, you know, the companies that have historically done this well are more successful.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: How does that all feed in that then?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what how should you know, and I'm asking this from a selfish perspective, because I've been had great meetings with businesses and they've said, but you know, how what is going to be the impact on the bottom line of investing in this?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I always think, oh, it'd be nice to have some things to back that up.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well ultimately it's all centered around who are making the decisions.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've got one demographic of person making the decisions, often we recruit in our own likeness, we our network is very um similar to ourselves, and therefore you you um generate this concept of groupthink.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we all think the same, we offer similar solutions, we do the same things that we've always been doing, but bring in new perspectives, be that from women, from ethnic minorities, from the LGBTQ community, looking at individuals that have come from lower socio-economic backgrounds than some of the Harvard educated CEOs, perhaps that are in the room making the decisions, bring about more innovative solutions that speak to customers and consumers and therefore they become more profitable because they're attracting a broader market.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone's listening to this, they might be interested in D and I themselves or maybe for a family member.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: What sort of things does somebody in your position or your team do?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you cover and what's I guess what's the role look like?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, no day can ever be the can ever be the same.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of my role, it's looking at how we build out the strategy.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um when I came into the business, and perhaps we spoke about it previously, albeit it might have been a little bit early in my time, is building a strategy, what does that look like for the business?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Where are the pain points?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So day to day, I'm looking at where our representation in the business sits, what actions are we driving to help remediate some of those challenges, and what are driving some of those barriers.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if we look at roles in my industry, which is the insurance market, it's looking at areas of our business which have predominantly been white male heavy and tapping into audiences and specialists that offer broader talent in those spaces to help build balance short lists.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's looking at our talent and how we mobilize talent through the business in certain facets of the organization or at certain levels.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So building in talent solutions that help people get there.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't about appointing a heavy diverse team for the sake of it to meet quotas.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is around making sure there is equal opportunity for access and skill in a way that some people come to it more naturally because of their ingrained skills, their ingrained um education opportunities that they've been offered through their you know social and family dynamics.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very much built around the strategy.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a broader piece around making sure that people feel more comfortable.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I spend a lot of time supporting the wider HR team, developing policy, looking at what has worked or where we've seen potentially things that aren't working so well, how we can improve, um, that experience, educating the business on what inclusive leadership looks like, how we can build inclusive practices into the recruitment process, for example, if you're hiring for roles, um looking at I'm trying to think of some of the things that I've been doing this morning, but um I'm looking at our end of quarter reporting at the minute, so looking at where there are areas that we need to to drill down some attention on, and where it might be that they're within our gift to shift, and and those are the types of things when organizations like ours and others bring in programmes like mentoring or talent development opportunities, or whether it is a product of the market, so yeah, technically specialist roles in our industry are heavily male-centric, and therefore, are we fishing from a wide enough pool?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do we broaden the scale of where we're we're sending our roles or where they don't exist?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is there another solution that us as a business or us as an industry can lean into?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you have organizations like the ABI, which is the Association of British Insurers, that will offer leadership programs that work collectively across the industry for us to mobilize some of this as a collective.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I often wonder why more companies don't do like return.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: These obviously you see so many graduate schemes which train graduates for a certain role.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel they're so limited at the return ship.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then often the people have had to have done that, even if it was 10, 15 years ago, they can't there doesn't seem to be opportunities for people to come in to big organizations like yourselves and retrain on a sort of graduate scheme type thing, but aimed at a slightly different demographic.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't know, it'd be interesting to know why you think there are a number of people that do that really well.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose one of the challenges it depends on the nature of the role that you're hiring for.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: If it's technically if if it's a technical specialism, yeah, and there are a certain set of skills that are a requirement in order for that person to be competent and capable to do that role, it restricts that pool down quite significantly.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and early career recruitment tends to be the best way to build that diverse brain.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's not to say that returnships don't work really well.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have seen them, seen them work really well, but generally where the representation is reduced are in those really niche specialisms.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: If someone organization has listened to this and they want to invest in DNI and they, you know, what are some of the things that maybe your organization or you've seen other organizations do really well in terms of recruitment and retention and promotion?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the strategies that some businesses could adopt?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think definitely one that I think most people in this space are already doing, but perhaps if those are further away from it, is the the data interrogation.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Data is the key to the majority of our solutions.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So really investing in the demographics, an understanding of how your business is made up.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So understand where the problem areas potentially will be.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So by looking at our gender data, we understand that actually women at a certain level drop off in this area of the business.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: We can then start to interrogate why and develop solutions that are targeting the right issue rather than just assuming women don't hire, you know, don't apply for roles or assuming there's bias in the process, actually understanding where the problem is.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: So data is such a valuable tool for any business in order to look at um look at where they're paying their attention.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Another, again, and it's really popular with organizations, um, it's cost effective as well, is employee resource groups.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding the insights and perspectives that people have.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of organizations have and assume that a lot of that comes from their own employee voice or employee survey um options, but that isn't necessarily true.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of organizations that have employee resource groups are fostering safe community spaces for people that share a similar identity or a characteristic that feel more open to be able to explain and share their experiences.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: With one another and some of the leadership um peers.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So those are valuable tools.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's another facet of data to be able to harness that.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then some of the more um kind of the more obvious ones that organizations bring in are mentorships for underrepresented talent, which helps individuals that are in the minority be paired with people that can potentially help them broaden their network and their um opportunity to access certain spaces that they might not be as freely able to or comfortable to lean into by themselves.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's anything really, I think the concept of DNI really scares a lot of people when actually, in its most simplest form, it is about understanding culture and respects and how we just help people understand in order for you to be your best, what is it that you need?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And can we look for that?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't, what does that look like?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you've recently completed a master's.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: How did that come about?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Was that something you've always wanted to do?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was so I never went to university.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So as I got older, I always wanted to achieve a degree.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I also having moved into the DI space, that my predecessor, who I greatly respected, um moved on to another role.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I was by myself in the business, so I was very much self-taught.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I was looking at actually how can I build up my skills in this space?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And one night I clearly took a turn because I decided to sign up for a master's at what is probably the busiest time in my career and home life, but I'm through the other side now.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: So how long did it take?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Two years.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's a long time.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing part-time then around your work.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was, yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it took over my evenings and my weekends for a considerable amount of time, but I just found the content.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking how do you find time, you know, because I get a lot of people go, I can't do this because I haven't got time.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: You appro you know you work is it full-time, part-time your job?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I work full-time over four days, so I work hours.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: So full-time, you've got a family, um, you're busy.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you find time then to do something like this?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a massive undertaking.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I I come I come from it from my own um experience.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I know not everybody is afforded those same privileges, but I have a really supportive husband who just left me to cram my head in books um uh over many evenings and weekends.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: The actual program itself only warranted a couple of hours, uh about four hours a week, the actual lectures.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there was uh It's still quite you know, you've still got to find four hours, haven't you?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well well, it actually equates you you needed to do 15 hours reading.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: So Wow, so yeah, it's a lot considerable amount of like 22 hours a week you've got to find.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I personally, because it was something that mattered to me, made it a priority.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it came at the expense of my time with friends and family, I'm sure.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um I very much leaned away.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the uh now.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I very much leaned out of, and this potentially has its own career ramifications of out of anything outside BAU work activity.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than giving 200% as um I might in the past, I was doing my role and switching off, you know, maybe some of the networking was put to work.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, so I interrupted you, because obviously you had to have to have the boundaries, and a lot of parents when their children are young, um, I don't know how old you are.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Not fairly old, but now they're 16 and 30.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're old enough to look after themselves in um yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm wondering, you know, the boundaries obviously you said no, I can't do this because I'm studying.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I wondered if a lot of parents with younger children feel often a bit uncomfortable and then they say, No, I can't do this because I have to do pickup or I have to do this, that, the other.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Did you feel maybe there's you could so I'm I'm trying to think of the word, but you know, that you can justify it a bit more if it's oh, I've got to study, I'm doing my masters, and how could you know parents, I guess, feel more confident stating they've got boundaries and you know, for a different reason?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you need to make it work for you.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I also could leverage that this was making me better, fundamentally better at what is I'm providing for you as a service.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um, that in itself, you know, in of itself helps, but I'm a huge advocate, and I suppose that comes on to some of the insights and the data from my dissertation research, which was on the workplace culture of insurance and how it links to the gender pay gap, was fundamentally, I think that so many, and I I'm speaking on behalf of myself here, but for women that came through the research and the survey, is women are not unambitious, you know, there's a huge level of ambition that is centred around boundaries.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you can be hugely ambitious working nine to five, you know, have to do all the other peripheral things around the around the edges, and I think as a society we've moved into a space where you have to be on all the time, yeah, you have to um attend everything or be uh completely visible, whether that's physically or um at some of these social um occasions.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's something that as I move beyond my dissertation, I'd really like to do some um some work around.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So some of one of the key points that came out of my research was in the insurance industry, a lot of um networks, a lot of connections, a lot of business is developed in social spaces.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that'd be like formal networking, going to the pub with the team, meeting brokers for um conversations, a lot of golf events, race events, very social um heavy activity is that interestingly, equally, both men and women in my research enjoyed them less favourably.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So nobody really enjoys them.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: They don't like them.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: You'd think, you know, nice day out, nice jolli.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not on a day like today, but on a sunny day it'd be nice.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: But not but fundamentally women find them considerably more stressful for reasons such as childcare, which was you know clearly number one, two the whole premise of um just alcohol-fueled events and how comfortable people feel leaning into those, be that because they don't have a preference to drink alcohol, or it's becoming less popular, isn't it, as well?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Drinking.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, you hear about you know younger generations that don't drink as much.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, through to just and then this, as you would expect, came through more clearly from from women was feeling less safe to be attending eats at night, um, and then have to travel home.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, there is something to be said around people really understanding, and again, this came from the research, that informal networking and influencing is a huge driver to achieving advancement in careers.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And how we mitigate that with actually stripping that back to understand that you have a huge population of talent over here that have ambition, but they also have boundaries.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, how do we bridge it?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: How do you bridge it?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I, you know, I mean, this is a long, long time ago now, you know, like back in the early uh 2000s when I started my career, but I remember getting, you know, tapped up for roles in other people's teams on nights out, and you'd get to like hog knob and mingle with directors that you wouldn't do if you were in an office and they were maybe sat on the other side of the floor.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, well, I don't know really what's the solution is you know, is the solution to ban those types of events?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is the solution?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to offer more innovative and it goes back to having diverse perspectives in that team that visibly or the diverse leader, uh diverse thought, you know, is shaping what those things look like.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, golf has historically been a very male heavy sport, you know, a lot of things happen in conversations happen in the pub with very male-dominated spaces around sports, yeah, that women, of course, can be interested, can and are interested in, but actually make it a less engaging environment.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like they're exclusive, but they're not inviting.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, how do we look at, and that's where other people that are far um more creative than me can can bring in solutions that actually say, well, I have a huge demographic or pipeline of talent over here that want to progress their careers, but they only want to work three days, or actually they can only work core hours, you know, and actually how we harness that talent in more innovative ways.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I work four days, you know.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody wants to move into the DI space, why is somebody not picking up my fifth day and and using that as a development opportunity to build their own expertise and their skill?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there are different ways that we can work with our existing solutions to meet the broader broader perspectives where you've got the challenge is people don't necessarily have the time to think of those creative solutions.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because everyone's busy, aren't they?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you're just doing what you've always done.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just to re repeat, repeat, repeat if you've already done it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and I forgive me, I'm sure there are organizations out there doing this really well, but nobody really stands out as being really innovative in this space, in this sector, that look at offering a solution that works for people, particularly women, within working hours.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is there more the rise you've seen the rise more like lunchtime networking and things like that?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and that again, in of itself, is a very simple offering to actually instead of after five, it's actually 12 well two.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know, it's something that's built in in the working hour, the working space, because I think there's collective acknowledgement that it's such an integral part of career advancement.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think also what's from you know, speaking to people, I guess my experience is having like that mentor or sponsor as well, that's cheering you on, that's championing you within a business.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think historically men have been quite good at finding that person.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I know you know, when I look back at my career, I can really pinpoint certain individuals, and they were male and female that have really helped me and took me under their wing as well.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I'm the same.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was under the mentorship of somebody before I took on my original role in DI, and I wasn't going to go for it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was only because my mentor helped coach me into thinking, yeah, it was something I could do that I even went for it in the first place.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So having that external lens or that external critique to help you play some of those things through is invaluable.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Another piece of research which was quite interesting from my um paper was that actually fundamentally women are not less confident than men.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Which I mean, it was only a certain demographic, so there was about 130 people across the industry that filled in my survey.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: But fundamentally, we worked this narrative that women are less confident, and that's why they don't go for roles.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, women Why do you think they don't go for roles then?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's the level of flexibility, yeah.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um the perception that actually you have to be operating uh you know, every hour of every day, including holidays, and therefore what how much more are you going to sacrifice for yourself or your care, you know, care the those that you're caring for in order to do that?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a really difficult one.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would like some personal advice from you for some of our listeners if that's okay, because you've obviously got a big job, you work, I know you work compressed hours, but it's full-time, you've got two kids, you've got a family.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I was doing some um coaching for a lady the other day, and she was returning to work, thinking returning to work after an eight-year career break, and she was nervous about basically about how she was gonna fit it all in, how she was gonna do school, pick up, drop off, or she's got a dog, and it's that whole thing that I think a lot of women find dawning is how am I gonna fit it in?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: How am I gonna do it all?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love for you to tell us, you know, and I uh what how you basically do it really, um, if that's okay.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And because you know, you've got a big job.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um how how have you basically carved that out for yourself um within your life, I guess?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think I again I think it goes back to the privilege that I am afforded.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I could not have done what I have done if it hadn't been for my parents and Neil, my husband's parents, in terms of them looking after our children when they were really, really young.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have to pay for childcare, and that is a luxury that so many aren't afforded.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: So really conscious and aware of that.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I've got a very equal and supportive partner that I do it with, and you know, as the children are getting older, they're able to understand more that when I'm at work, I put 100% into work, and when I'm at home, I'm putting 100% into them.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I am not apologetic about switching off from work when I need to clock off in order to give those um those that I need.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that you just have to prioritize what's important, and sometimes that is at the expense of your career, sometimes that is at the expense of maybe family time or some self-care time, but I think it's it's making identifying what on your top three priority list comes first, yeah, and it shifts the gifts, like you said.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, if there's a health scare, then actually you know your health absolutely should come first, or if the kids are going through their GCSEs, and actually I'll be spending more attention on that.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think as my children have got older now, um, and they're not old by any means, but they can fend for themselves, make themselves a sandwich, um, which is so much easier.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Survival skill.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, is they understand that you know this is something that's really important to me, which the masters is an example, and therefore I'm really gonna put some time into you know doing this for myself.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: I do know I said this as a working parent, and I've had a lot of mum guilt over the years.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've had it where you feel that guilty for working.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and it's only now mine and nearly she's nearly seven and the other one's nearly nine, so they're not as old as yours, but they're definitely more independent.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I feel bad saying this, but I'm gonna be this is that honest, honestly.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: They are quite resilient and quite self-sufficient, and I think much more self-sufficient than I would have been at their age when I had to stay at home mum.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they can get themselves a drink, they can get themselves a snack, they can, you know, put the TV on, they can amuse themselves.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I don't think they'd have done all that and been, especially when I see them getting in the fridge, I can see them putting, you know, very consciously I'm like, it can be dangerous.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, do not put that knife in that toas, but they can, you know, get themselves cereal with the toast, put toast in the toaster and stuff.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, yeah, if I'd have been doing all that for them, they wouldn't have done that.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I they've done that because I worked and haven't always been like hovering around them, and I think actually, these are quite good skills that they are honing quite young to have that independence.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think we all need to understand what is best for us and for our families.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you teach your children different things depending on where those priorities sit.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you're a stay-at-home parent, whether you work 100 hours a week, you know, um you're you're teaching them different, a different set of skills where I would really like to get the the industry or the broader uh kind of society to is that whole concept of actually let let's pull back on having to be working 24 hours a day and actually celebrate their top talent, even if it's that they can only offer so many hours a week.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually what they bring far outweighs the flexible needs that they've got.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I say this as an employer, I would rather have 100% of somebody 25 hours a week than 60% of someone for 40 hours a week.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: And equally my organization, so I've been here a hell of a long time.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as I say, I've moved from being part-time when I had my children initially four days to expanding that to compressed hours.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is organizations do need to think about the flexibility that they offer and what that looks like to help people feel able to move around.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so nice to chat with you today.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you for sharing um the results as well of your um dissertation and what you found in that.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was really interesting.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, where can people find you, connect with you, and learn more about intact insurance?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm on LinkedIn personally.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I, as I say, Intact Insurance is our new brand.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Previously, I would say insurance.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of really exciting solutions and brand activation um activity that's happening in terms of helping the UK understand who intact insurance are and how we can market ourselves as a different brand.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of insurance do you offer as well?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Do you offer to in-consumer or?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's commercial insurance.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we're um a commercial and specialty lines insurer that cover um both the UK and the rest of the globe.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Nice, lovely.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: All right, brilliant.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we will put all the links in the show notes.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Gemma, for joining us.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.