Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / How the Stoics can help us become better people with Philosopher dr. Massimo Pigliucci

Transcript

How the Stoics can help us become better people with Philosopher dr. Massimo Pigliucci · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 48 00:01:12,481 --> 00:01:17,538 [zaza]: Professor Massimo Pigliucci has a phd in evolutionary biology 50 00:01:17,718 --> 00:01:22,126 [zaza]: from the university of connecticut and a p d in philosophy from the university of 51 00:01:22,246 --> 00:01:27,755 [zaza]: tennessee he is the k d rani professor philosophy at the city college of new 52 00:01:27,895 --> 00:01:34,426 [zaza]: york his research interests include the philosophy of science the nature of sudoscience and practical 53 00:01:34,506 --> 00:01:40,056 [zaza]: philosophy s like stoicism and new skepticism he is the author or editor of sixteen 54 00:01:40,156 --> 00:01:46,486 [zaza]: books whole including the best selling how to be a stoic using ancient philosophy to 55 00:01:46,546 --> 00:01:52,576 [zaza]: live a modern life other other titles in nonsense on stilts how to sell science 56 00:01:52,693 --> 00:01:52,878 [massimo]: i am 57 00:01:53,478 --> 00:01:58,667 [zaza]: excuse me how to tell science from bunk and the most recent the quest for 58 00:01:58,827 --> 00:02:02,112 [zaza]: character which i have right here what story 59 00:02:01,982 --> 00:02:02,063 [massimo]: the 60 00:02:02,273 --> 00:02:09,244 [zaza]: of socrates and alkibiatis teaches us about our search for good leaders that i totally 61 00:02:09,284 --> 00:02:09,625 [zaza]: recommend 62 00:02:09,303 --> 00:02:09,977 [massimo]: to commend 63 00:02:10,066 --> 00:02:10,586 [zaza]: to everyone 64 00:02:10,843 --> 00:02:10,864 [massimo]: a 65 00:02:10,927 --> 00:02:14,416 [zaza]: because i read it professor pluche welcome to your 66 00:02:14,383 --> 00:02:14,832 [massimo]: come 67 00:02:14,577 --> 00:02:14,818 [zaza]: trash 68 00:02:15,881 --> 00:02:17,125 [massimo]: thanks it's a pleasure to be here 69 00:02:17,652 --> 00:02:19,555 [zaza]: yea the very first 70 00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:19,515 [massimo]: very 71 00:02:19,955 --> 00:02:25,965 [zaza]: sentence of your new book is a question that reads can we make ourselves into 72 00:02:26,086 --> 00:02:32,774 [zaza]: better human beings i'm thirty seven years old and have been called a stubborn got 73 00:02:33,215 --> 00:02:33,735 [zaza]: more than a few 74 00:02:33,630 --> 00:02:33,850 [massimo]: yeah 75 00:02:33,815 --> 00:02:37,919 [zaza]: times because i'm already so set in my ways so i'm skeptical 76 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:37,603 [massimo]: that's 77 00:02:38,059 --> 00:02:38,840 [zaza]: of the prospect 78 00:02:38,571 --> 00:02:39,196 [massimo]: the prospect 79 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,280 [zaza]: myself but since i have you here can i still 80 00:02:43,230 --> 00:02:43,250 [massimo]: i 81 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,669 [zaza]: become a better person or is it way too late for me 82 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:52,826 [massimo]: it's not too late but it's going to take some work so the evidence from 83 00:02:53,447 --> 00:02:54,888 [massimo]: modern science from modern 84 00:02:54,831 --> 00:02:54,852 [zaza]: m 85 00:02:54,948 --> 00:03:01,839 [massimo]: cartie science shows that the ancient greco romans pretty much got the general idea right 86 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,408 [massimo]: the best time to work on being a good person is actually when you're very 87 00:03:07,488 --> 00:03:09,151 [massimo]: young bet in the age 88 00:03:09,012 --> 00:03:09,356 [zaza]: oh 89 00:03:09,231 --> 00:03:14,780 [massimo]: of seven or eight which is when when children begin to be able to think 90 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:22,693 [massimo]: in abstract terms up until you're late teen ager early twenties now the reason for 91 00:03:22,773 --> 00:03:28,383 [massimo]: this as we know today is because the human brain keeps growing until one is 92 00:03:28,483 --> 00:03:30,947 [massimo]: in in his or her early twenties and then it kind 93 00:03:30,893 --> 00:03:30,975 [zaza]: the 94 00:03:30,987 --> 00:03:34,293 [massimo]: of stops it and settles down now however that's sad 95 00:03:34,345 --> 00:03:34,525 [zaza]: bad 96 00:03:34,373 --> 00:03:34,694 [massimo]: the human 97 00:03:34,585 --> 00:03:34,826 [zaza]: news 98 00:03:34,714 --> 00:03:34,894 [massimo]: brain 99 00:03:35,147 --> 00:03:35,327 [zaza]: bad 100 00:03:35,355 --> 00:03:35,516 [massimo]: yeah 101 00:03:35,387 --> 00:03:35,568 [zaza]: news 102 00:03:35,576 --> 00:03:39,323 [massimo]: i know bad news right that's the bad news the good news is that the 103 00:03:39,343 --> 00:03:46,506 [massimo]: human brain is still fairly flexible obviously we're capable of learning new things after the 104 00:03:46,606 --> 00:03:47,748 [massimo]: twenties so 105 00:03:48,264 --> 00:03:48,792 [zaza]: okay 106 00:03:48,329 --> 00:03:52,075 [massimo]: you can still improve you can still become a better person but it takes work 107 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:56,843 [massimo]: and you have to want to do it think about it this way a good 108 00:03:56,883 --> 00:04:02,453 [massimo]: analogy is with learning a new language or with learning how to play a musical 109 00:04:02,553 --> 00:04:08,944 [massimo]: instrument we all know that both languages and music are much better you learned when 110 00:04:08,984 --> 00:04:14,563 [massimo]: you're young born and very young because you're again your brain is very flexible so 111 00:04:14,924 --> 00:04:18,850 [massimo]: you learn much more easily you become much more proficient et cetera but that doesn't 112 00:04:18,930 --> 00:04:19,772 [massimo]: mean that 113 00:04:19,992 --> 00:04:20,177 [zaza]: yeah 114 00:04:20,313 --> 00:04:21,134 [massimo]: as an adult you 115 00:04:21,096 --> 00:04:21,117 [zaza]: o 116 00:04:21,194 --> 00:04:24,139 [massimo]: can't pick up alto sacks and start playing 117 00:04:24,282 --> 00:04:24,545 [zaza]: yeah 118 00:04:24,620 --> 00:04:28,163 [massimo]: or it doesn't mean that you can't start learning a new language it just means 119 00:04:28,203 --> 00:04:30,326 [massimo]: that it will be slower going 120 00:04:30,135 --> 00:04:30,196 [zaza]: we 121 00:04:30,966 --> 00:04:33,569 [massimo]: and a little bit more difficult to do but it can be done 122 00:04:35,183 --> 00:04:38,251 [zaza]: okay so i have to readjust my ambitions in that 123 00:04:38,170 --> 00:04:38,511 [massimo]: correct 124 00:04:38,332 --> 00:04:41,080 [zaza]: sense i can become better but like a little bit better 125 00:04:41,661 --> 00:04:42,923 [massimo]: exactly a little bit better 126 00:04:43,522 --> 00:04:49,992 [zaza]: okay um like you explain it yourself in the book these days virtue is a 127 00:04:50,053 --> 00:04:56,062 [zaza]: bit of an old fashioned word associated with like ancient philosophers right like something out 128 00:04:56,102 --> 00:05:00,286 [zaza]: of shakespearian dialogue or maybe lord of the rings something that's closer 129 00:05:00,285 --> 00:05:00,465 [massimo]: sure 130 00:05:00,346 --> 00:05:05,291 [zaza]: to me but what would you say comes closest to virtue in today's context 131 00:05:06,841 --> 00:05:11,148 [massimo]: well the interesting thing is that when we talk about virtue today yeah you're right 132 00:05:11,268 --> 00:05:15,095 [massimo]: it is certainly an old fashioned word and not only that but most people tend 133 00:05:15,135 --> 00:05:21,465 [massimo]: to associate the christian concept virtue with the word and so they start thinking about 134 00:05:21,545 --> 00:05:26,453 [massimo]: things like purity and chastity and you know something like that but the grego romans 135 00:05:26,493 --> 00:05:30,961 [massimo]: did not have that kind of thing in mind what they had in mind was 136 00:05:31,061 --> 00:05:35,388 [massimo]: what modern scientists refer to as behavioral attitude 137 00:05:35,348 --> 00:05:35,368 [zaza]: a 138 00:05:35,729 --> 00:05:40,998 [massimo]: so a virtue is a character trait and therefore it is a behavioral attitude of 139 00:05:41,038 --> 00:05:46,407 [massimo]: babil tendency let's say for instance you say oh my friend is a generous person 140 00:05:46,687 --> 00:05:52,917 [massimo]: what you mean is that other things being equal your friend is prone more prone 141 00:05:52,978 --> 00:05:59,669 [massimo]: than average to devote time resources energy money whatever to help other people and if 142 00:05:59,729 --> 00:06:03,936 [massimo]: you say so and that's a virtue generosity is a virtue if on the other 143 00:06:03,976 --> 00:06:06,620 [massimo]: hand you say you know my my friend is a little bit thing you mean 144 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,649 [massimo]: the opposite you mean that it has the vice of not spending enough time or 145 00:06:11,709 --> 00:06:15,515 [massimo]: resources or whatever helping other 146 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:15,501 [zaza]: he 147 00:06:15,575 --> 00:06:20,848 [massimo]: people so really the virtues are the trades and counter trades are behaving all dispositions 148 00:06:22,741 --> 00:06:24,083 [massimo]: even more generally the 149 00:06:23,986 --> 00:06:24,068 [zaza]: no 150 00:06:24,143 --> 00:06:27,608 [massimo]: greco romans actually used the word arete which 151 00:06:27,587 --> 00:06:27,607 [zaza]: a 152 00:06:27,748 --> 00:06:36,021 [massimo]: means excellent so being virtuous means being excellent at being a human human being now 153 00:06:36,121 --> 00:06:42,812 [massimo]: the word crete can actually be applied in in the gracoroman action to anything that 154 00:06:42,872 --> 00:06:47,200 [massimo]: has a function not just human beings but let's say objects like a few days 155 00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:48,041 [massimo]: ago my wife and 156 00:06:48,073 --> 00:06:48,134 [zaza]: my 157 00:06:48,081 --> 00:06:48,321 [massimo]: i went 158 00:06:48,214 --> 00:06:48,476 [zaza]: wife and 159 00:06:48,422 --> 00:06:52,408 [massimo]: out and got a bread knife a new bread knife because we needed we needed 160 00:06:52,769 --> 00:06:57,958 [massimo]: a new knife and we got an art bread knife meaning an excellent brand knife 161 00:06:58,058 --> 00:06:58,518 [massimo]: now what is 162 00:06:58,693 --> 00:06:58,835 [zaza]: what 163 00:06:58,699 --> 00:07:03,507 [massimo]: excellent for a brand knife it means that the knife cuts the bread nicely smoothly 164 00:07:04,028 --> 00:07:09,517 [massimo]: without effort sort of stuff right so similarly a human being is a 165 00:07:09,855 --> 00:07:09,938 [zaza]: the 166 00:07:09,978 --> 00:07:15,326 [massimo]: is excellent when she does what human beings are supposed to do that is what 167 00:07:15,387 --> 00:07:19,794 [massimo]: the function of human beings is in a very good way now that of course 168 00:07:19,854 --> 00:07:25,282 [massimo]: raises the question what is the function of a human being the gregaromans without knowing 169 00:07:25,362 --> 00:07:33,661 [massimo]: anything about evolution thought that nature shaped us as a species the basis of two 170 00:07:33,861 --> 00:07:40,252 [massimo]: fundamental characteristics one we are capable of reason in a much more sophisticated fashion than 171 00:07:40,352 --> 00:07:43,658 [massimo]: any other animal that's how we make our living other animals 172 00:07:43,422 --> 00:07:43,584 [zaza]: the 173 00:07:44,018 --> 00:07:48,506 [massimo]: fly or swim or have big muscles or big fangs or something like that we 174 00:07:48,626 --> 00:07:54,977 [massimo]: think we solve our problem by using our large brains and second we are highly 175 00:07:55,477 --> 00:08:01,447 [massimo]: social animals are other social animals of course you know other social primates social insects 176 00:08:01,547 --> 00:08:04,352 [massimo]: et cetera et cetera but human societies are far more complicated 177 00:08:03,912 --> 00:08:03,993 [zaza]: oh 178 00:08:04,432 --> 00:08:11,186 [massimo]: far more integrated than anything else on the planet so okay from that observation to 179 00:08:11,486 --> 00:08:15,398 [massimo]: romans derived that the human the function of a human being is to think correctly 180 00:08:16,270 --> 00:08:21,134 [massimo]: and to act pro socially to act in a co operative fashion and therefore to 181 00:08:21,195 --> 00:08:25,038 [massimo]: be virtuous means to think correctly and to act socially 182 00:08:27,554 --> 00:08:32,508 [zaza]: why were the stoics so focused on the quest of refining one's moral excellence in 183 00:08:32,548 --> 00:08:33,209 [zaza]: the first place 184 00:08:35,350 --> 00:08:41,100 [massimo]: because everything else depends on it essentially if by morality you mean so we have 185 00:08:41,140 --> 00:08:45,106 [massimo]: to actually step back for a second here and talk a little bit about the 186 00:08:45,166 --> 00:08:51,391 [massimo]: very word morality or because i'm gonna use them interchangeably actually to mean essentially the 187 00:08:51,431 --> 00:08:56,239 [massimo]: same thing now today if you ask most model philosophers and i think most people 188 00:08:56,379 --> 00:08:59,645 [massimo]: in general and you say you know what do you think ethics is about or 189 00:08:59,665 --> 00:09:03,933 [massimo]: what do you think morality is about the answer is be something on the lines 190 00:09:04,154 --> 00:09:08,964 [massimo]: of oh it's the study of right and wrong it's the area of philosophy that 191 00:09:09,044 --> 00:09:14,033 [massimo]: tells me whether an action is there contemplating is right or wrong that's a very 192 00:09:14,214 --> 00:09:21,716 [massimo]: narrow view however of ethics the word ethics itself comes again from the greek from 193 00:09:21,856 --> 00:09:27,185 [massimo]: athos and it was translated in latin by cicero as morales 194 00:09:27,263 --> 00:09:27,283 [zaza]: i 195 00:09:27,465 --> 00:09:30,911 [massimo]: from which we get our morality which is why i'm saying that ethics and morality 196 00:09:31,031 --> 00:09:37,563 [massimo]: are the same thing but in the ancient world ethics or morality meant having a 197 00:09:37,643 --> 00:09:42,291 [massimo]: good character and living well with other people so it was a much 198 00:09:42,202 --> 00:09:42,403 [zaza]: it was 199 00:09:42,472 --> 00:09:44,575 [massimo]: broader conception of ethics 200 00:09:44,385 --> 00:09:44,528 [zaza]: oh 201 00:09:44,635 --> 00:09:48,321 [massimo]: than we have today of course in order to live well with other 202 00:09:48,182 --> 00:09:48,362 [zaza]: well 203 00:09:48,402 --> 00:09:52,148 [massimo]: people you also have to have an idea of what is right and wrong of 204 00:09:52,248 --> 00:09:55,453 [massimo]: whether a particular act it's running wrong but you have to have much more than 205 00:09:55,493 --> 00:09:58,537 [massimo]: that you have to have an idea of how to interact with other people in 206 00:09:58,637 --> 00:10:03,364 [massimo]: all sorts of settings you have to have an idea of values what is good 207 00:10:03,384 --> 00:10:07,130 [massimo]: and what is not good what your priority should be what kind of a life 208 00:10:07,251 --> 00:10:11,277 [massimo]: you want to live that sort of stuff all of that falls under ethics in 209 00:10:11,317 --> 00:10:15,905 [massimo]: the in the ancient sense so ethics is really broadly speaking the study of how 210 00:10:15,965 --> 00:10:18,329 [massimo]: to live a good life that answers 211 00:10:18,222 --> 00:10:18,385 [zaza]: that 212 00:10:18,369 --> 00:10:22,095 [massimo]: the question of why the stoic story was so important because what else is there 213 00:10:22,777 --> 00:10:27,583 [massimo]: if we're defining ethics this stout of how to get a good life then of 214 00:10:27,643 --> 00:10:31,067 [massimo]: course you want to study you want to you know involve yourself in that kind 215 00:10:31,127 --> 00:10:33,445 [massimo]: of exercise ye 216 00:10:34,092 --> 00:10:37,678 [zaza]: you go to great pains in the book which i think is awesome personally to 217 00:10:37,738 --> 00:10:43,087 [zaza]: explain that a philosophical way of life you know used to mean something else in 218 00:10:43,147 --> 00:10:47,134 [zaza]: the greek or roman world like how to live a good life right these days 219 00:10:47,194 --> 00:10:52,964 [zaza]: however being a philosopher means you have a ph d in philosophy and are teaching 220 00:10:53,064 --> 00:10:56,149 [zaza]: at university usually probably 221 00:10:56,272 --> 00:10:56,536 [massimo]: baby 222 00:10:56,590 --> 00:10:59,074 [zaza]: which makes philosophy kind of you know a little bit 223 00:10:59,081 --> 00:10:59,323 [massimo]: a little 224 00:10:59,174 --> 00:10:59,635 [zaza]: elitist 225 00:10:59,363 --> 00:10:59,887 [massimo]: bit i 226 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:02,119 [zaza]: and for most people 227 00:11:02,014 --> 00:11:02,155 [massimo]: most 228 00:11:02,199 --> 00:11:04,363 [zaza]: at least and which is also why i was a tiny bit 229 00:11:04,350 --> 00:11:04,370 [massimo]: i 230 00:11:04,443 --> 00:11:07,167 [zaza]: scared to read your book to be honest i thought it was going to be 231 00:11:07,228 --> 00:11:12,746 [zaza]: like really way over my head but i guess i want 232 00:11:12,661 --> 00:11:12,822 [massimo]: guess 233 00:11:12,806 --> 00:11:14,610 [zaza]: to ask how do we reclaim 234 00:11:14,326 --> 00:11:14,947 [massimo]: we reclaim 235 00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:20,440 [zaza]: that old meaning of the word where this pursuit becomes available to everybody again 236 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:25,607 [massimo]: yeah i think we're in the process of doing that now let me step back 237 00:11:25,687 --> 00:11:25,868 [massimo]: again 238 00:11:25,883 --> 00:11:26,025 [zaza]: back 239 00:11:25,908 --> 00:11:31,277 [massimo]: for a second and say there's nothing wrong with philosophy as understood as an academic 240 00:11:31,377 --> 00:11:37,171 [massimo]: pursuit of you know know highly specialized manners i mean my day job is exactly 241 00:11:37,191 --> 00:11:41,280 [massimo]: what you described i have a pichtme philosophy and i work teach in a university 242 00:11:41,781 --> 00:11:47,172 [massimo]: in my special tis philosophy of science so i spend my time at work thinking 243 00:11:47,252 --> 00:11:50,537 [massimo]: about the nature of science how science works or doesn't work in that sort of 244 00:11:50,557 --> 00:11:52,160 [massimo]: stuff and it's a highly specialized 245 00:11:51,634 --> 00:11:51,654 [zaza]: i 246 00:11:52,701 --> 00:11:54,825 [massimo]: kind of pursuit but it's no different from 247 00:11:54,843 --> 00:11:54,883 [zaza]: if 248 00:11:54,965 --> 00:11:59,973 [massimo]: any other academic discipline when before coming philosophy i was an evolutionary biologist and i 249 00:12:00,013 --> 00:12:04,741 [massimo]: was doing the same exact thing you get a p in biology and you start 250 00:12:05,562 --> 00:12:06,063 [massimo]: studying and 251 00:12:06,042 --> 00:12:06,123 [zaza]: to 252 00:12:06,103 --> 00:12:09,649 [massimo]: spending a lot of time studying very very narrow very very specific kinds of questions 253 00:12:09,970 --> 00:12:15,279 [massimo]: there's nothing wrong with that so long as you understand that that's not philosophy in 254 00:12:15,359 --> 00:12:18,885 [massimo]: the sense in which we're talking about it with this conversation that is philosophy as 255 00:12:18,945 --> 00:12:24,514 [massimo]: a way of life the two aspects too meanings of philosophy really co existed since 256 00:12:24,554 --> 00:12:29,342 [massimo]: the presocratic philosopher so they've been around for like twenty five hundred years there were 257 00:12:29,502 --> 00:12:32,668 [massimo]: philosophers in ancient greece that did what i do 258 00:12:32,824 --> 00:12:32,844 [zaza]: i 259 00:12:32,888 --> 00:12:36,955 [massimo]: they spent as of their time thinking about the nature of reality in a very 260 00:12:37,035 --> 00:12:40,661 [massimo]: abstract very abstruse way and really couldn't care less about 261 00:12:40,674 --> 00:12:40,695 [zaza]: i 262 00:12:40,701 --> 00:12:42,845 [massimo]: communicating with people outside 263 00:12:42,822 --> 00:12:43,043 [zaza]: yeah 264 00:12:42,905 --> 00:12:47,472 [massimo]: the field because that was in the point just like a modern scientist or a 265 00:12:47,512 --> 00:12:53,061 [massimo]: modern historian or a modern economist doesn't really concern himself usually with communicating with the 266 00:12:53,101 --> 00:12:56,366 [massimo]: public because that's that's what they're doing that's the nature of her job but at 267 00:12:56,407 --> 00:13:01,595 [massimo]: the same time there were people like cates or people like plato or people like 268 00:13:01,675 --> 00:13:06,804 [massimo]: aristotle who thought wait a minute there is another sense of what it means to 269 00:13:06,864 --> 00:13:13,615 [massimo]: do philosophy after all philosophy means literally love of wisdom and wisdom is a fundamental 270 00:13:13,675 --> 00:13:18,083 [massimo]: is the argublydfundamental virtue which allows for 271 00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:18,097 [zaza]: i 272 00:13:18,203 --> 00:13:22,835 [massimo]: good life so there is a sense in which being a philosopher is not a 273 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:24,166 [massimo]: specialized academic 274 00:13:23,946 --> 00:13:23,967 [zaza]: i 275 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:31,450 [massimo]: pursuit by something that anybody could do and in fact a gable that everybody should 276 00:13:31,731 --> 00:13:33,273 [massimo]: do and that is why 277 00:13:33,125 --> 00:13:33,410 [zaza]: that is 278 00:13:33,854 --> 00:13:36,338 [massimo]: i write books like the quest for character 279 00:13:36,033 --> 00:13:36,174 [zaza]: what 280 00:13:36,439 --> 00:13:40,305 [massimo]: which by the way in europe is published as how to be good for some 281 00:13:40,385 --> 00:13:41,627 [massimo]: reason i don't i don't know why 282 00:13:42,912 --> 00:13:43,213 [zaza]: oh 283 00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:46,596 [massimo]: and that's why we're having these kind of conversations so the notion is to bring 284 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:52,003 [massimo]: back philosophy as a way of life to a broader public in fact i would 285 00:13:52,063 --> 00:13:57,923 [massimo]: go so far as saying that the notion that philosophy is only an academic to 286 00:13:58,003 --> 00:14:04,645 [massimo]: a career or an academic pursuit it's actually very anomalous and it only happened in 287 00:14:04,705 --> 00:14:10,114 [massimo]: the during the twentieth century really nineteen late nineteen early twentieth century when the academy 288 00:14:10,174 --> 00:14:15,904 [massimo]: itself became specialized that's true now as for philosophy but also for other fields again 289 00:14:16,124 --> 00:14:19,670 [massimo]: science is the same thing so it's really an anomaly 290 00:14:19,493 --> 00:14:19,573 [zaza]: the 291 00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:25,179 [massimo]: of western philosophy over the last century or two but other than that in most 292 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,748 [massimo]: places in the world and for most of western history itself philosophy had both meanings 293 00:14:30,969 --> 00:14:36,398 [massimo]: and you could be a philosopher in the sort of general sense of i want 294 00:14:36,438 --> 00:14:39,868 [massimo]: to live a good life i want to use my large brain to try to 295 00:14:39,928 --> 00:14:42,256 [massimo]: figure out what that good life is about 296 00:14:44,653 --> 00:14:47,198 [zaza]: the second sentence a question 297 00:14:47,244 --> 00:14:47,568 [massimo]: question 298 00:14:47,258 --> 00:14:51,765 [zaza]: of the book reads and can we get the leaders of our society to care 299 00:14:51,845 --> 00:14:55,051 [zaza]: about the general welfare so that humanity may prosper 300 00:14:54,829 --> 00:14:55,950 [massimo]: a yeah 301 00:14:55,652 --> 00:14:56,633 [zaza]: not just economically 302 00:14:56,181 --> 00:14:56,342 [massimo]: just 303 00:14:56,814 --> 00:14:56,934 [zaza]: but 304 00:14:56,968 --> 00:14:56,989 [massimo]: a 305 00:14:57,094 --> 00:14:59,298 [zaza]: also spiritually and then you go 306 00:14:59,230 --> 00:14:59,451 [massimo]: then you 307 00:14:59,458 --> 00:15:00,119 [zaza]: on to very 308 00:15:00,214 --> 00:15:00,454 [massimo]: very 309 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:08,794 [zaza]: honestly examine historical cases of where famous philosophers try to instill some you and some 310 00:15:08,834 --> 00:15:09,755 [zaza]: moral excellence 311 00:15:09,686 --> 00:15:10,114 [massimo]: excellent 312 00:15:10,617 --> 00:15:11,578 [zaza]: and various rulers 313 00:15:11,332 --> 00:15:11,413 [massimo]: you 314 00:15:12,119 --> 00:15:14,764 [zaza]: you go from socrates and his friend alkibiades 315 00:15:14,984 --> 00:15:15,190 [massimo]: this 316 00:15:15,525 --> 00:15:19,491 [zaza]: who later turned out to be a little bit of a traitor to athens and 317 00:15:19,592 --> 00:15:23,899 [zaza]: then we have plato and the tyrants of syracuse who almost ended up killing him 318 00:15:24,019 --> 00:15:24,880 [zaza]: twice i believe 319 00:15:25,464 --> 00:15:25,605 [massimo]: yep 320 00:15:26,523 --> 00:15:27,204 [zaza]: to the roman 321 00:15:27,311 --> 00:15:27,633 [massimo]: roman 322 00:15:27,325 --> 00:15:27,725 [zaza]: stoic 323 00:15:27,754 --> 00:15:28,076 [massimo]: story 324 00:15:28,306 --> 00:15:32,754 [zaza]: philosopher seneca who advised the how should we call it 325 00:15:33,076 --> 00:15:33,096 [massimo]: i 326 00:15:33,795 --> 00:15:35,097 [zaza]: not so well emperor 327 00:15:34,820 --> 00:15:35,000 [massimo]: well 328 00:15:35,218 --> 00:15:37,942 [zaza]: nero since 329 00:15:37,965 --> 00:15:38,166 [massimo]: yes 330 00:15:38,022 --> 00:15:40,627 [zaza]: these wisest men failed 331 00:15:40,692 --> 00:15:40,897 [massimo]: yeah 332 00:15:41,268 --> 00:15:47,637 [zaza]: and failed in quite spectacular fashion what chance do we mere mortals have in trying 333 00:15:47,717 --> 00:15:48,858 [zaza]: to sway our leaders 334 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:49,529 [massimo]: oh 335 00:15:49,459 --> 00:15:50,821 [zaza]: to be a little bit more ethical 336 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:55,827 [massimo]: yeah that's a great question so there are two chapters that are kind of central 337 00:15:55,908 --> 00:15:59,253 [massimo]: to the block as you mentioned i go to a series of case studies from 338 00:15:59,393 --> 00:16:01,597 [massimo]: ancient greece and rome and the reason by the way 339 00:16:01,966 --> 00:16:01,986 [zaza]: a 340 00:16:02,338 --> 00:16:06,565 [massimo]: i focused on ample from greece and rome as supposed to say modern contemporary examples 341 00:16:06,681 --> 00:16:06,701 [zaza]: a 342 00:16:06,706 --> 00:16:11,453 [massimo]: is because if if i were to start talking about current politicians you know started 343 00:16:11,534 --> 00:16:16,743 [massimo]: naming names of politicians in europe or the uk or the united states then you 344 00:16:16,784 --> 00:16:21,374 [massimo]: will probably lose half of your audience because as soon as i start saying something 345 00:16:21,474 --> 00:16:22,938 [massimo]: negative or critical of 346 00:16:23,195 --> 00:16:23,336 [zaza]: oh 347 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,247 [massimo]: this person or that person or the other person then you know partisans of that 348 00:16:28,367 --> 00:16:29,770 [massimo]: person will say oh this is 349 00:16:29,726 --> 00:16:29,869 [zaza]: oh 350 00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:32,935 [massimo]: this is all a lot of crap and i'm not going to listen to it 351 00:16:33,816 --> 00:16:38,604 [massimo]: instead i am betting that many people feel very strongly about nero 352 00:16:38,462 --> 00:16:38,582 [zaza]: oh 353 00:16:39,165 --> 00:16:44,374 [massimo]: or alexander the great or dianysis of syacue and therefore we can be a little 354 00:16:44,414 --> 00:16:45,456 [massimo]: bit more honest 355 00:16:45,653 --> 00:16:45,816 [zaza]: thank 356 00:16:45,656 --> 00:16:46,838 [massimo]: in the in our analysis 357 00:16:46,562 --> 00:16:46,704 [zaza]: well 358 00:16:46,918 --> 00:16:50,933 [massimo]: of what these people were doing now those two chapters 359 00:16:50,973 --> 00:16:51,074 [zaza]: ah 360 00:16:51,434 --> 00:16:56,021 [massimo]: that are in the middle part of the book do two different things to different 361 00:16:56,061 --> 00:17:01,831 [massimo]: but related things in one case i look at case studies of philosophers trying to 362 00:17:01,931 --> 00:17:06,519 [massimo]: teach statesmen so those are the cases most of the cases you mentioned fall into 363 00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:10,225 [massimo]: that category so seneca trying to teach nero in 364 00:17:10,213 --> 00:17:10,355 [zaza]: yeah 365 00:17:10,365 --> 00:17:15,575 [massimo]: realm plato trying to teach dian is the first and dionysus the second of syracuse 366 00:17:16,377 --> 00:17:22,206 [massimo]: those kind of things aristotle trying to teach alexander the great and actually succeeding a 367 00:17:22,246 --> 00:17:24,229 [massimo]: little bit better than than the other the other 368 00:17:24,192 --> 00:17:24,272 [zaza]: the 369 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:24,590 [massimo]: cases 370 00:17:24,332 --> 00:17:25,858 [zaza]: first half was kind of good wasn't it 371 00:17:26,293 --> 00:17:26,473 [massimo]: right 372 00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:27,022 [zaza]: of alexander's 373 00:17:26,613 --> 00:17:27,014 [massimo]: exactly 374 00:17:27,062 --> 00:17:27,202 [zaza]: life 375 00:17:27,114 --> 00:17:27,315 [massimo]: it was 376 00:17:27,303 --> 00:17:27,443 [zaza]: yeah 377 00:17:27,695 --> 00:17:33,465 [massimo]: it was not a disaster it was not a nero situation and then the next 378 00:17:33,303 --> 00:17:33,384 [zaza]: the 379 00:17:33,585 --> 00:17:37,391 [massimo]: chapter deals with examples where the statesmen themselves 380 00:17:37,405 --> 00:17:37,486 [zaza]: no 381 00:17:38,533 --> 00:17:44,683 [massimo]: themselves have actually gotten into philosophy and an end train themselves into philosophy as a 382 00:17:44,744 --> 00:17:48,450 [massimo]: way of life of course not as a academic discipline so those are cases like 383 00:17:48,530 --> 00:17:55,522 [massimo]: marcus ariliuskato the younger who was a stoic senator in republican rome cicero you know 384 00:17:55,862 --> 00:17:58,246 [massimo]: several julian the apostate who was the last 385 00:17:58,423 --> 00:17:58,545 [zaza]: yep 386 00:17:58,707 --> 00:18:05,298 [massimo]: pagan roman emperor et cetera and the pattern that emerges from those two sets of 387 00:18:05,398 --> 00:18:12,171 [massimo]: case studies is pretty clear the chances that a philosopher will succeed in teaching somebody 388 00:18:12,231 --> 00:18:17,411 [massimo]: who is already in advance and to the point of being a statesman are not 389 00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:23,651 [massimo]: very good pretty much all all of almost all of those are failures the exception 390 00:18:24,072 --> 00:18:30,122 [massimo]: the partial exception is aristaland alexander but that's because aristalagot alexander very young you know 391 00:18:30,162 --> 00:18:34,249 [massimo]: he was teach alexander when he was sixteen or seventeen and as we said before 392 00:18:34,649 --> 00:18:40,619 [massimo]: that that that is still a moment in human development when people are still flexible 393 00:18:40,679 --> 00:18:42,903 [massimo]: and kind of open it's true that 394 00:18:43,193 --> 00:18:43,335 [zaza]: yeah 395 00:18:43,344 --> 00:18:44,946 [massimo]: that nero also was 396 00:18:44,897 --> 00:18:44,918 [zaza]: a 397 00:18:45,007 --> 00:18:48,593 [massimo]: about seventeen when seneca start teaching him but nero probably had some 398 00:18:48,672 --> 00:18:48,692 [zaza]: m 399 00:18:48,773 --> 00:18:55,023 [massimo]: serious mental issues i mean it was really deranged it was not nobody would have 400 00:18:55,064 --> 00:18:55,805 [massimo]: succeeded with nero 401 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:56,641 [zaza]: yes 402 00:18:56,566 --> 00:18:56,786 [massimo]: there was 403 00:18:56,802 --> 00:18:57,642 [zaza]: yeah 404 00:18:56,847 --> 00:19:00,693 [massimo]: some serious mental issues there now the second group on the other hand tend to 405 00:19:00,753 --> 00:19:05,641 [massimo]: be much more successful as politicians now successful of course i have to qualify here 406 00:19:06,362 --> 00:19:13,314 [massimo]: successful means they were able to engage in politics in a way that was honest 407 00:19:13,935 --> 00:19:17,841 [massimo]: characterized by integrity and trying to do the right thing that doesn't mean that they 408 00:19:17,941 --> 00:19:22,329 [massimo]: actually succeeded in what they were trying to do for instance both kate the younger 409 00:19:22,529 --> 00:19:27,377 [massimo]: and sara lived in the last few years of the roman republic they were allies 410 00:19:27,537 --> 00:19:32,846 [massimo]: they tried to save the republic from julius caesar and then eventually later from octavian 411 00:19:32,866 --> 00:19:37,213 [massimo]: the first roman emperor and they failed the out so the outcome didn't really go 412 00:19:37,334 --> 00:19:41,641 [massimo]: their way but it's but any historian will tell you they did try and they 413 00:19:41,721 --> 00:19:46,449 [massimo]: tried honestly they tried her their best and frankly that's all we can ask of 414 00:19:46,509 --> 00:19:49,975 [massimo]: a state and or a politician to do their best in order to achieve a 415 00:19:50,035 --> 00:19:51,497 [massimo]: certain goal whether i 416 00:19:51,584 --> 00:19:51,665 [zaza]: we 417 00:19:51,638 --> 00:19:56,405 [massimo]: or she accede actually achieves the goal that depends on a lot of other circumstances 418 00:19:56,526 --> 00:19:56,926 [massimo]: probably 419 00:19:56,596 --> 00:19:56,616 [zaza]: a 420 00:19:57,047 --> 00:20:01,457 [massimo]: nobody could have saved the roman republic at at the time the situation was such 421 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:07,208 [massimo]: in structural terms in terms of you know social political and economic dynamics that it 422 00:20:07,248 --> 00:20:12,236 [massimo]: would have been impossible for anybody to succeed anyway marcus seralius succeeded in both cases 423 00:20:12,637 --> 00:20:16,824 [massimo]: in both both senses of the word he was a good emperor meaning that he 424 00:20:16,944 --> 00:20:17,665 [massimo]: tried to do 425 00:20:17,595 --> 00:20:17,616 [zaza]: i 426 00:20:17,966 --> 00:20:23,976 [massimo]: his best to manage the empire and and insuring that the people thrived and he 427 00:20:24,056 --> 00:20:27,502 [massimo]: actually succeeded that that was one of he was the state so called five roman 428 00:20:27,582 --> 00:20:31,789 [massimo]: emperors and the roman empire was doing pretty well and he under under him and 429 00:20:31,929 --> 00:20:35,936 [massimo]: in fact he was able to manage a series of crisis in a pretty good 430 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:41,424 [massimo]: way by by any standards so part of the message therefore that emerges from the 431 00:20:41,464 --> 00:20:47,831 [massimo]: book is done trying to change a politician who is already sat in his wife 432 00:20:49,033 --> 00:20:53,240 [massimo]: or her wise because that's just not going to succeed but do try to get 433 00:20:53,321 --> 00:20:59,571 [massimo]: to people either early on so train young people to become statesmen or try to 434 00:20:59,691 --> 00:21:05,341 [massimo]: reach out to people who are already doing their job but they are themselves open 435 00:21:05,601 --> 00:21:12,072 [massimo]: to improvement there themselves open to suggestions and and and to then so and that 436 00:21:12,333 --> 00:21:12,882 [zaza]: yet 437 00:21:12,673 --> 00:21:16,499 [massimo]: goes for statesmen as much as it goes for everybody else i mean we were 438 00:21:16,539 --> 00:21:19,785 [massimo]: talking about what are earlier on what are your chances of becoming a 439 00:21:20,082 --> 00:21:20,462 [zaza]: yeah 440 00:21:20,286 --> 00:21:22,249 [massimo]: better human being right and i said well 441 00:21:22,264 --> 00:21:22,844 [zaza]: not very good 442 00:21:23,571 --> 00:21:26,937 [massimo]: they're okay but but you know it would have been it would have been better 443 00:21:26,997 --> 00:21:28,199 [massimo]: to start earlier and 444 00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:28,590 [zaza]: yeah 445 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:34,650 [massimo]: but because you want to improve because it is actually your intention to become bad 446 00:21:35,150 --> 00:21:39,958 [massimo]: then you probably will succeed you ill you'll make progress if you actually you now 447 00:21:40,059 --> 00:21:44,245 [massimo]: pay attention and put your effort in it but if somebody comes from the outside 448 00:21:44,306 --> 00:21:49,355 [massimo]: and you have no intention whatsoever of respond ding to the suggestion that the person 449 00:21:49,415 --> 00:21:50,838 [massimo]: makes then of course it's not going to work 450 00:21:52,673 --> 00:21:54,335 [zaza]: um yeah well honestly 451 00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:54,211 [massimo]: well 452 00:21:54,956 --> 00:21:57,120 [zaza]: i believe to be honest i did start 453 00:21:57,033 --> 00:21:57,255 [massimo]: i did 454 00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:57,300 [zaza]: this 455 00:21:57,316 --> 00:21:57,518 [massimo]: start 456 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:57,821 [zaza]: podcast 457 00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:58,206 [massimo]: this past 458 00:21:58,562 --> 00:22:01,668 [zaza]: try to gain a valuable insight or two along the 459 00:22:01,644 --> 00:22:01,706 [massimo]: ah 460 00:22:01,708 --> 00:22:03,671 [zaza]: way you know so perhaps there still is 461 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,841 [massimo]: yeah 462 00:22:04,132 --> 00:22:12,233 [zaza]: liver of hope silver lining and all so i appreciate your kind words anyway back 463 00:22:12,293 --> 00:22:15,819 [zaza]: to you to the point that you were just making i've read an 464 00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:16,011 [massimo]: i 465 00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:22,791 [zaza]: article in the atlantic that reference a study that founded an unusual unusually high number 466 00:22:22,851 --> 00:22:29,266 [zaza]: of c os and politicians no possess slightly psychopathic trades i 467 00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:29,412 [massimo]: yep 468 00:22:29,366 --> 00:22:33,293 [zaza]: believe the number was around twelve per cent which is twelve times higher than in 469 00:22:33,353 --> 00:22:39,744 [zaza]: the general population apparently these positions that require require a lot of coal calculation and 470 00:22:40,065 --> 00:22:46,680 [zaza]: end up rewarding these types of pathological personalities who end up being very successful and 471 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,326 [zaza]: kind of championed by society at large do you think that we have a problem 472 00:22:51,406 --> 00:22:51,726 [zaza]: already 473 00:22:51,833 --> 00:22:51,854 [massimo]: a 474 00:22:52,067 --> 00:22:55,611 [zaza]: here with what type of people are attracted to positions of power 475 00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:58,543 [massimo]: yes we do in fact that start 476 00:22:58,624 --> 00:22:58,885 [zaza]: okay 477 00:22:58,643 --> 00:23:03,672 [massimo]: is kind of interesting that's kind of that started you mentioned is interesting and i've 478 00:23:03,732 --> 00:23:09,000 [massimo]: ritten about that as well that's right the two areas where you find much larger 479 00:23:09,101 --> 00:23:14,790 [massimo]: percentage of sociopatic or pypsychopatic profiles are politics and high finance 480 00:23:15,533 --> 00:23:15,974 [zaza]: great news 481 00:23:15,952 --> 00:23:20,259 [massimo]: frankly i doubt yeah i doubt that anybody were going to be really surprised by 482 00:23:20,339 --> 00:23:25,965 [massimo]: it by then it's like yeah i would have expected that just just pay attention 483 00:23:26,025 --> 00:23:27,166 [massimo]: to who's in those 484 00:23:27,152 --> 00:23:27,233 [zaza]: if 485 00:23:27,227 --> 00:23:27,367 [massimo]: kind 486 00:23:27,293 --> 00:23:27,433 [zaza]: they 487 00:23:27,427 --> 00:23:27,487 [massimo]: of 488 00:23:27,594 --> 00:23:27,734 [zaza]: are 489 00:23:27,687 --> 00:23:27,787 [massimo]: of 490 00:23:27,814 --> 00:23:30,220 [zaza]: they're not living in the same realm as is the rest of us 491 00:23:30,660 --> 00:23:31,521 [massimo]: exactly now 492 00:23:31,774 --> 00:23:31,835 [zaza]: no 493 00:23:32,303 --> 00:23:33,405 [massimo]: the issue whatever is 494 00:23:33,213 --> 00:23:34,280 [zaza]: ever 495 00:23:34,667 --> 00:23:40,316 [massimo]: yes certainly those those fields seem to reward that kind of personality and i'm not 496 00:23:40,396 --> 00:23:44,303 [massimo]: sure that we can do much about high finance but we can't can certainly do 497 00:23:44,383 --> 00:23:49,051 [massimo]: something about politics because at least in more or less 498 00:23:49,082 --> 00:23:49,203 [zaza]: oh 499 00:23:49,091 --> 00:23:56,343 [massimo]: democratic societies such as the united states and most european countries ultimately the buck stops 500 00:23:56,443 --> 00:24:00,830 [massimo]: with us that is we are responsible for who we put there right and so 501 00:24:01,071 --> 00:24:04,777 [massimo]: it's easy to complain about the politicians because you know that's 502 00:24:04,762 --> 00:24:04,943 [zaza]: oh 503 00:24:04,957 --> 00:24:09,304 [massimo]: that's a bad person you know social i can't believe that this person is in 504 00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:13,351 [massimo]: charge well okay but stop for a minute and think about who put him there 505 00:24:14,173 --> 00:24:17,378 [massimo]: in democratic society we did we are the ones at 506 00:24:17,443 --> 00:24:17,503 [zaza]: the 507 00:24:17,538 --> 00:24:22,386 [massimo]: ultimate response but of course not individually because my individual vote doesn't count as much 508 00:24:22,927 --> 00:24:23,688 [massimo]: but collectively 509 00:24:23,566 --> 00:24:23,811 [zaza]: come 510 00:24:23,789 --> 00:24:28,076 [massimo]: we're certainly responsible for who is in charge and so i think it's you know 511 00:24:28,116 --> 00:24:29,538 [massimo]: one of the argument that i make near the end of 512 00:24:29,523 --> 00:24:29,604 [zaza]: you 513 00:24:29,558 --> 00:24:33,087 [massimo]: the book is that we we need to stop complaining about politicians and do something 514 00:24:33,147 --> 00:24:39,877 [massimo]: about it yeah when you said you know those professions seem to reward a high 515 00:24:39,917 --> 00:24:45,626 [massimo]: level associate patty yes and we seem to reward we as 516 00:24:45,833 --> 00:24:45,975 [zaza]: ah 517 00:24:45,847 --> 00:24:50,274 [massimo]: as voters seem to reward a high degree of social party at least in one 518 00:24:50,334 --> 00:24:54,541 [massimo]: of those two professions and you know we don't elect financiers but we certainly do 519 00:24:54,601 --> 00:24:57,145 [massimo]: elect politicians and i think that the 520 00:24:57,047 --> 00:24:57,273 [zaza]: i think 521 00:24:57,205 --> 00:25:03,496 [massimo]: reason for that is in part at least because as a general public we have 522 00:25:03,616 --> 00:25:08,845 [massimo]: not been paying much attention to character hence the reason for writing 523 00:25:09,013 --> 00:25:09,379 [zaza]: right 524 00:25:09,186 --> 00:25:13,053 [massimo]: this kind of book i think we need to go back to re evaluate 525 00:25:12,903 --> 00:25:12,984 [zaza]: by 526 00:25:13,233 --> 00:25:18,573 [massimo]: our priorities we tend to be for one thing we are now confusing a lot 527 00:25:18,633 --> 00:25:18,873 [massimo]: of us 528 00:25:18,862 --> 00:25:18,982 [zaza]: lot 529 00:25:18,993 --> 00:25:24,943 [massimo]: are confusing politics for partisanship i have even some of my my own students who 530 00:25:25,023 --> 00:25:29,531 [massimo]: tell me that they don't get involved in politics and they don't want to talk 531 00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:33,639 [massimo]: about politics with their friends or relatives because people get upset 532 00:25:35,014 --> 00:25:35,034 [zaza]: i 533 00:25:35,061 --> 00:25:35,141 [massimo]: and 534 00:25:35,134 --> 00:25:35,496 [zaza]: understand 535 00:25:35,201 --> 00:25:35,601 [massimo]: i keep the 536 00:25:35,536 --> 00:25:36,058 [zaza]: them a little bit 537 00:25:36,743 --> 00:25:41,091 [massimo]: absolutely i understand them as well but that means that there is a confusion there 538 00:25:41,131 --> 00:25:47,982 [massimo]: between politics and partisanship they're thinking of partisanship they're thinking about immediately people split into 539 00:25:48,062 --> 00:25:50,586 [massimo]: two factions and they start yelling at 540 00:25:50,593 --> 00:25:50,674 [zaza]: to 541 00:25:50,626 --> 00:25:50,746 [massimo]: each 542 00:25:50,734 --> 00:25:50,794 [zaza]: be 543 00:25:50,826 --> 00:25:50,966 [massimo]: other 544 00:25:50,834 --> 00:25:53,847 [zaza]: honest that's how it's presented out there in the media 545 00:25:53,790 --> 00:25:53,992 [massimo]: yes 546 00:25:53,928 --> 00:25:54,189 [zaza]: you know 547 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,786 [massimo]: that's right it is and that's because it sells newspapers and it sells you know 548 00:25:58,846 --> 00:26:00,709 [massimo]: television programs and something 549 00:26:00,633 --> 00:26:00,857 [zaza]: course 550 00:26:00,769 --> 00:26:02,072 [massimo]: like that but it's not 551 00:26:02,064 --> 00:26:02,145 [zaza]: but 552 00:26:02,112 --> 00:26:07,623 [massimo]: very useful to society we should be focusing on politics after all the word itself 553 00:26:08,266 --> 00:26:15,216 [massimo]: comes from police right which means society city city and so to do politics means 554 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:17,960 [massimo]: to be interested to be involved in 555 00:26:18,032 --> 00:26:18,132 [zaza]: oh 556 00:26:18,060 --> 00:26:23,089 [massimo]: how you run your own society why would anybody not be interested in in how 557 00:26:23,149 --> 00:26:26,815 [massimo]: you run your own society so one thing that we need to do is to 558 00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:33,346 [massimo]: step back for a minute and again make a distinction between partisanship and politics and 559 00:26:33,406 --> 00:26:37,092 [massimo]: we should try to stay away as much as possible from partisanship we should talk 560 00:26:37,172 --> 00:26:38,034 [massimo]: about ideas 561 00:26:37,613 --> 00:26:37,734 [zaza]: but 562 00:26:38,214 --> 00:26:43,984 [massimo]: not about people we should talk about what works and what doesn't work ideally in 563 00:26:44,064 --> 00:26:44,685 [massimo]: an evidence 564 00:26:44,785 --> 00:26:45,032 [zaza]: okay 565 00:26:44,845 --> 00:26:48,992 [massimo]: based manner just like we're doing in other areas 566 00:26:48,773 --> 00:26:48,915 [zaza]: the 567 00:26:49,232 --> 00:26:53,339 [massimo]: of of life let's say for instance that you know you have to buy a 568 00:26:53,399 --> 00:27:00,151 [massimo]: car of course car salesman will try to sell you whatever they have available but 569 00:27:00,271 --> 00:27:00,832 [massimo]: if you are 570 00:27:01,108 --> 00:27:01,249 [zaza]: are 571 00:27:01,533 --> 00:27:05,239 [massimo]: a smart person what you're gonna do is you're going look at reviews at technical 572 00:27:05,299 --> 00:27:09,005 [massimo]: specifications you're going to look at a number of things before you buy a car 573 00:27:09,186 --> 00:27:13,853 [massimo]: why is that well because you're spending as an viganamont money and you want something 574 00:27:13,894 --> 00:27:17,479 [massimo]: that is going to last for at least a number of years now if we 575 00:27:17,580 --> 00:27:21,707 [massimo]: pay the irony here is that we pay more attention to things like buying a 576 00:27:21,787 --> 00:27:26,835 [massimo]: car which after all it's pretty trivial then who we elect to office which literally 577 00:27:26,895 --> 00:27:34,147 [massimo]: affects everybody in our entire life so it's a weird way of having priorities and 578 00:27:34,207 --> 00:27:37,773 [massimo]: the greco roman would tell that means you just got the wrong priorities 579 00:27:37,863 --> 00:27:38,412 [zaza]: yeah 580 00:27:37,913 --> 00:27:44,422 [massimo]: if you think that it's better to spend time researching a car or a vacation 581 00:27:44,307 --> 00:27:44,819 [zaza]: vocation 582 00:27:44,923 --> 00:27:48,927 [massimo]: or a house or something like that then researching who you're putting in charge of 583 00:27:49,007 --> 00:27:50,828 [massimo]: society then you're really screwed up 584 00:27:51,912 --> 00:27:55,758 [zaza]: yeah that's i believe that's a really tall 585 00:27:55,543 --> 00:27:55,605 [massimo]: so 586 00:27:55,938 --> 00:27:56,359 [zaza]: order like 587 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:56,460 [massimo]: or 588 00:27:56,419 --> 00:28:01,427 [zaza]: we mentioned media but then we have social media and i see with myself already 589 00:28:01,311 --> 00:28:01,431 [massimo]: oh 590 00:28:01,528 --> 00:28:07,052 [zaza]: that nothing excites me more then writing an angry comment you know 591 00:28:07,111 --> 00:28:07,151 [massimo]: m 592 00:28:07,373 --> 00:28:11,039 [zaza]: under a political debate on fhacebook or instagram or somewhere i 593 00:28:11,140 --> 00:28:11,240 [massimo]: oh 594 00:28:11,239 --> 00:28:14,905 [zaza]: love to be upset even though i know this is the stupidest 595 00:28:14,429 --> 00:28:14,449 [massimo]: i 596 00:28:14,985 --> 00:28:15,847 [zaza]: thing that exists 597 00:28:16,952 --> 00:28:17,234 [massimo]: yes 598 00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:18,875 [zaza]: and probably this is what drives yes 599 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:19,842 [massimo]: yeah 600 00:28:20,022 --> 00:28:22,426 [zaza]: the attention economy or a large part of it 601 00:28:22,522 --> 00:28:22,603 [massimo]: at 602 00:28:22,686 --> 00:28:23,648 [zaza]: right so 603 00:28:23,732 --> 00:28:23,913 [massimo]: yes 604 00:28:23,988 --> 00:28:26,452 [zaza]: how can we go beyond that like i 605 00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:26,671 [massimo]: oh it's 606 00:28:26,593 --> 00:28:26,813 [zaza]: know 607 00:28:26,732 --> 00:28:26,872 [massimo]: sim 608 00:28:26,973 --> 00:28:30,479 [zaza]: that this is complete excuse my language bullshit but 609 00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:31,312 [massimo]: absolutely 610 00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:35,307 [zaza]: i can't help myself to not write that really sassy 611 00:28:35,089 --> 00:28:35,190 [massimo]: it 612 00:28:35,508 --> 00:28:37,170 [zaza]: angry comment under there 613 00:28:37,062 --> 00:28:41,309 [massimo]: that's right that's right and the solution is simple quit just call 614 00:28:41,245 --> 00:28:41,586 [zaza]: okay 615 00:28:41,389 --> 00:28:42,691 [massimo]: turkey just shut 616 00:28:42,589 --> 00:28:42,930 [zaza]: all right 617 00:28:42,751 --> 00:28:44,054 [massimo]: it everything shut everything down 618 00:28:44,476 --> 00:28:44,636 [zaza]: of 619 00:28:44,574 --> 00:28:46,257 [massimo]: that's what i did you 620 00:28:46,182 --> 00:28:46,485 [zaza]: oh 621 00:28:46,297 --> 00:28:51,050 [massimo]: know a few months ago pres because i got to your same conclusion which by 622 00:28:51,111 --> 00:28:51,631 [massimo]: the way is 623 00:28:51,735 --> 00:28:51,756 [zaza]: a 624 00:28:51,792 --> 00:28:53,955 [massimo]: backed up by pretty solid science i mean 625 00:28:54,052 --> 00:28:54,353 [zaza]: of course 626 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:55,097 [massimo]: the reason these 627 00:28:55,096 --> 00:28:55,257 [zaza]: yeah 628 00:28:55,157 --> 00:28:58,783 [massimo]: things happened the reason you feel that way is because the system is actually the 629 00:28:58,823 --> 00:28:59,965 [massimo]: technology is designed 630 00:29:00,195 --> 00:29:00,216 [zaza]: i 631 00:29:00,426 --> 00:29:06,336 [massimo]: for that because that is what maximize these companies profit so for several years i 632 00:29:06,616 --> 00:29:11,484 [massimo]: was very active on both facebook and and twitter and when people were 633 00:29:11,723 --> 00:29:11,926 [zaza]: we're 634 00:29:11,745 --> 00:29:15,070 [massimo]: pointing out to me that maybe this wasn't the best it's to be 635 00:29:15,132 --> 00:29:15,359 [zaza]: oh 636 00:29:15,331 --> 00:29:22,262 [massimo]: in order if you're interested in learning things and participating you know fostering public debate 637 00:29:22,743 --> 00:29:25,748 [massimo]: maybe that's not the place to be whenever people 638 00:29:25,715 --> 00:29:25,735 [zaza]: a 639 00:29:25,788 --> 00:29:30,035 [massimo]: were saying telling me that i was answering well but this is just technology technologies 640 00:29:30,096 --> 00:29:34,443 [massimo]: are neutral it depends on how you use it right yeah sure you can be 641 00:29:34,763 --> 00:29:39,592 [massimo]: angry all the time and put stuff that makes no sense you can just use 642 00:29:39,652 --> 00:29:44,782 [massimo]: it reasonably and be you know constructive and all that or stuff i thought for 643 00:29:44,842 --> 00:29:47,427 [massimo]: a long time this is up to you the technology itself 644 00:29:47,364 --> 00:29:47,384 [zaza]: i 645 00:29:47,527 --> 00:29:50,653 [massimo]: is actually neutral not really it turns out 646 00:29:51,222 --> 00:29:51,584 [zaza]: all right 647 00:29:51,514 --> 00:29:51,695 [massimo]: a lot 648 00:29:51,664 --> 00:29:51,785 [zaza]: yeah 649 00:29:51,735 --> 00:29:53,377 [massimo]: of technology not not 650 00:29:53,283 --> 00:29:53,443 [zaza]: not 651 00:29:53,437 --> 00:29:56,543 [massimo]: neutral at all fathers a book that came out just a few months ago the 652 00:29:56,583 --> 00:30:00,028 [massimo]: title of which it literally is technology is not neutral and 653 00:29:59,932 --> 00:30:00,254 [zaza]: i mean you 654 00:30:00,269 --> 00:30:00,409 [massimo]: some 655 00:30:00,314 --> 00:30:01,016 [zaza]: can use a gun 656 00:30:00,832 --> 00:30:00,893 [massimo]: and 657 00:30:01,157 --> 00:30:03,826 [zaza]: to scratch your back but that's not why it was designed 658 00:30:03,713 --> 00:30:04,193 [massimo]: exactly 659 00:30:03,946 --> 00:30:04,648 [zaza]: to do right 660 00:30:04,474 --> 00:30:10,023 [massimo]: it's not exactly right that's exactly right so yes it's true that to some extent 661 00:30:10,143 --> 00:30:14,430 [massimo]: it is up to the user right you can it could be technol jes that 662 00:30:14,531 --> 00:30:16,013 [massimo]: are meant for 663 00:30:16,407 --> 00:30:16,428 [zaza]: a 664 00:30:17,395 --> 00:30:21,963 [massimo]: things to build things let's say like a hammer for instance meant to actually be 665 00:30:22,063 --> 00:30:25,649 [massimo]: used as a tool to build things but you know you can crush somebody's skull 666 00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:30,337 [massimo]: and if you really want to so there are positive technologies that can be used 667 00:30:30,377 --> 00:30:34,364 [massimo]: for for negative uses but there are some tecrancies 668 00:30:34,002 --> 00:30:34,103 [zaza]: there 669 00:30:34,404 --> 00:30:38,791 [massimo]: that are in herently negative and it becomes very difficult to use them for uh 670 00:30:38,923 --> 00:30:39,024 [zaza]: oh 671 00:30:38,991 --> 00:30:43,078 [massimo]: for for good and your example of a gun is perfectly is perfectly in line 672 00:30:43,118 --> 00:30:45,723 [massimo]: with that yes you can if you want to you can use it to scratch 673 00:30:45,763 --> 00:30:46,844 [massimo]: your head but that's 674 00:30:46,872 --> 00:30:46,972 [zaza]: ye 675 00:30:46,884 --> 00:30:50,712 [massimo]: not what is design for it's designed to kill people so i think the same 676 00:30:50,772 --> 00:30:55,124 [massimo]: is for social media i mean there is a college man and you who is 677 00:30:55,184 --> 00:30:58,210 [massimo]: a sociologist jonathan height and 678 00:30:58,722 --> 00:30:59,382 [zaza]: yeh 679 00:30:58,911 --> 00:31:02,297 [massimo]: you know janitor and i often don't see i to i we have disagreements about 680 00:31:02,798 --> 00:31:06,924 [massimo]: you know the relationship between ethics and sociology and psychology but i think 681 00:31:06,985 --> 00:31:07,315 [zaza]: i think 682 00:31:07,385 --> 00:31:08,126 [massimo]: but even an 683 00:31:08,184 --> 00:31:08,245 [zaza]: the 684 00:31:08,227 --> 00:31:13,473 [massimo]: article recently in the atlanta i that is a prelude to a book that i 685 00:31:13,533 --> 00:31:17,159 [massimo]: think is working on where he basically claims that one of the major disasters of 686 00:31:17,219 --> 00:31:19,884 [massimo]: the twenty first century is the rise of social media that 687 00:31:20,082 --> 00:31:20,323 [zaza]: yeah 688 00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:26,072 [massimo]: document a lot of negative except social media and in this particular case i think 689 00:31:26,132 --> 00:31:28,034 [massimo]: jodan is right there's no question 690 00:31:28,084 --> 00:31:28,632 [zaza]: quit 691 00:31:28,114 --> 00:31:31,778 [massimo]: in my mind any more so then i asked myself the question okay so what 692 00:31:31,798 --> 00:31:35,544 [massimo]: can i do about it and my first response was okay 693 00:31:35,753 --> 00:31:35,980 [zaza]: okay 694 00:31:36,064 --> 00:31:39,470 [massimo]: i'm going to just try to be more careful in the use of these too 695 00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:44,158 [massimo]: because after all there are a few things positive about social media you know i 696 00:31:44,218 --> 00:31:47,944 [massimo]: could keep in touch my family and friends for instance from around the world more 697 00:31:48,004 --> 00:31:53,794 [massimo]: easily on facebook i could follow people on twitter that i think you post interesting 698 00:31:53,874 --> 00:31:59,182 [massimo]: stuff and learn things that i not might not have learned otherwise so it is 699 00:31:59,362 --> 00:32:03,887 [massimo]: possible to use those those media in the way in which you scratch your head 700 00:32:03,947 --> 00:32:04,127 [massimo]: with a 701 00:32:04,242 --> 00:32:05,352 [zaza]: yeah 702 00:32:04,267 --> 00:32:09,164 [massimo]: with a gun but it's very very difficult and there 703 00:32:09,123 --> 00:32:09,265 [zaza]: yep 704 00:32:09,204 --> 00:32:14,312 [massimo]: are better ways to do it so what i decided was that after a few 705 00:32:14,372 --> 00:32:17,898 [massimo]: months of trying to use those media more carefully and more now in a more 706 00:32:17,998 --> 00:32:23,147 [massimo]: temperate fashion sara it's like now this is just not going anywhere so i just 707 00:32:23,227 --> 00:32:24,229 [massimo]: quit called turkey 708 00:32:25,102 --> 00:32:25,202 [zaza]: ah 709 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,646 [massimo]: and some of my friends were set because like wait a minute now i don't 710 00:32:28,746 --> 00:32:29,727 [massimo]: have any way to follow 711 00:32:29,531 --> 00:32:29,592 [zaza]: ah 712 00:32:29,787 --> 00:32:35,477 [massimo]: you know what you're doing and what and i thought look there are alternatives so 713 00:32:36,378 --> 00:32:40,425 [massimo]: yeah my friends and relatives cannot follow me on on facebook but guess what we 714 00:32:40,465 --> 00:32:43,570 [massimo]: can still talk on the phone we can still chat we can still email it's 715 00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:44,031 [massimo]: not like i'm 716 00:32:44,164 --> 00:32:44,286 [zaza]: like 717 00:32:44,332 --> 00:32:48,519 [massimo]: out of technology entirely i'm just out of social media of particular 718 00:32:48,529 --> 00:32:48,549 [zaza]: i 719 00:32:48,619 --> 00:32:53,347 [massimo]: type conception of social media the saying goes for people who are interested in my 720 00:32:53,467 --> 00:32:57,594 [massimo]: work in your readers and stuff like that yeah you could follow me on facebook 721 00:32:57,654 --> 00:33:01,360 [massimo]: or twitter but you can also go straight to my blog and we and have 722 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:02,161 [massimo]: interactions 723 00:33:01,624 --> 00:33:01,644 [zaza]: a 724 00:33:02,282 --> 00:33:05,968 [massimo]: there the difference there is that if you come to my blog you are interested 725 00:33:06,569 --> 00:33:07,090 [massimo]: the whole thing 726 00:33:07,083 --> 00:33:07,164 [zaza]: who 727 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:13,020 [massimo]: is moderated it's a closed environment it's much much easier to have high quality converse 728 00:33:13,260 --> 00:33:18,544 [massimo]: tiens uh in even public quality conversations then it is on social media where you 729 00:33:18,604 --> 00:33:21,967 [massimo]: have you know a number of strangers who have no idea who they are and 730 00:33:22,267 --> 00:33:23,929 [massimo]: they are free to say whatever the hell they want 731 00:33:25,833 --> 00:33:27,135 [zaza]: i read your block 732 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:27,181 [massimo]: or 733 00:33:27,255 --> 00:33:27,516 [zaza]: post 734 00:33:27,443 --> 00:33:27,544 [massimo]: no 735 00:33:27,996 --> 00:33:32,203 [zaza]: on how you quit social media and what really got me 736 00:33:32,224 --> 00:33:32,344 [massimo]: go 737 00:33:32,564 --> 00:33:34,107 [zaza]: was like a punch to the stomach 738 00:33:34,260 --> 00:33:34,503 [massimo]: oh 739 00:33:34,828 --> 00:33:36,991 [zaza]: is at the end i think you say 740 00:33:36,848 --> 00:33:37,543 [massimo]: a yeah 741 00:33:37,372 --> 00:33:42,889 [zaza]: well we're here for a finite amount of years you know and at the end 742 00:33:43,992 --> 00:33:46,716 [zaza]: when it's all said and done are you really going to be 743 00:33:46,792 --> 00:33:47,144 [massimo]: to be 744 00:33:47,137 --> 00:33:50,502 [zaza]: thinking about i should have spent more time on social 745 00:33:50,295 --> 00:33:50,315 [massimo]: i 746 00:33:50,563 --> 00:33:52,686 [zaza]: media you know probably not 747 00:33:54,610 --> 00:33:54,770 [massimo]: right 748 00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:59,357 [zaza]: yeah so but on other hand for example this podcast i can't reach 749 00:33:59,559 --> 00:33:59,700 [massimo]: right 750 00:33:59,618 --> 00:34:04,025 [zaza]: an audience unless i do some social media you know and like you said it's 751 00:34:04,125 --> 00:34:05,047 [zaza]: so damn hard 752 00:34:05,894 --> 00:34:06,135 [massimo]: well 753 00:34:05,948 --> 00:34:07,070 [zaza]: to just go called turkey 754 00:34:07,337 --> 00:34:10,182 [massimo]: i hear you i mean you know one one of the things that happened for 755 00:34:10,242 --> 00:34:15,330 [massimo]: instance is that i quit social media just a few months before the question character 756 00:34:15,410 --> 00:34:16,252 [massimo]: came out and 757 00:34:16,332 --> 00:34:16,613 [zaza]: oh 758 00:34:16,893 --> 00:34:20,359 [massimo]: my agent and my editor were not exactly happy about 759 00:34:20,532 --> 00:34:21,402 [zaza]: yeah 760 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:21,400 [massimo]: about 761 00:34:21,462 --> 00:34:22,782 [zaza]: yeah 762 00:34:21,521 --> 00:34:25,627 [massimo]: that right because they said wait a minute but you know now how you going 763 00:34:25,667 --> 00:34:29,734 [massimo]: to you know advertise your book and make sure that people know that it's out 764 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:35,724 [massimo]: but again i'm a scientist so i looked into the quantitative evidence said okay well 765 00:34:35,812 --> 00:34:35,994 [zaza]: okay 766 00:34:35,864 --> 00:34:38,849 [massimo]: so the assumption is that if you have let's say in my case a head 767 00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:44,574 [massimo]: like fifty thousand followers and on twitter the assumption is that if you have thousands 768 00:34:44,634 --> 00:34:46,217 [massimo]: or tens of thousands of followers or even 769 00:34:46,122 --> 00:34:46,303 [zaza]: oh 770 00:34:46,317 --> 00:34:46,677 [massimo]: millions 771 00:34:47,350 --> 00:34:47,532 [zaza]: yeah 772 00:34:47,779 --> 00:34:50,864 [massimo]: then you're gonna sell a lot of books because people are going to be turns 773 00:34:50,944 --> 00:34:51,225 [massimo]: out that's 774 00:34:51,263 --> 00:34:51,324 [zaza]: ye 775 00:34:51,265 --> 00:34:56,233 [massimo]: not true the what it's called the convert and right that is the number of 776 00:34:56,273 --> 00:34:56,554 [massimo]: people 777 00:34:56,425 --> 00:34:56,528 [zaza]: but 778 00:34:57,175 --> 00:35:01,722 [massimo]: the fraction that of your followers who actually got goes out there and buys the 779 00:35:01,762 --> 00:35:02,944 [massimo]: book or or or 780 00:35:02,922 --> 00:35:03,205 [zaza]: oh 781 00:35:03,085 --> 00:35:04,327 [massimo]: you know subscribes to your 782 00:35:04,722 --> 00:35:04,902 [zaza]: oh 783 00:35:05,489 --> 00:35:07,512 [massimo]: podcast it is it's actually tiny 784 00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:07,770 [zaza]: i 785 00:35:07,873 --> 00:35:12,621 [massimo]: it's a really tiny fraction which hardly makes it worth it i mean out of 786 00:35:12,701 --> 00:35:19,391 [massimo]: fifty thousand people only a few doesn't buy a book if i out repeated 787 00:35:19,435 --> 00:35:19,496 [zaza]: we 788 00:35:19,471 --> 00:35:23,635 [massimo]: posts about it that's just not worth the effort and there are other ways to 789 00:35:23,715 --> 00:35:26,138 [massimo]: do it like for instance you know i do produce 790 00:35:25,953 --> 00:35:25,974 [zaza]: a 791 00:35:26,198 --> 00:35:30,553 [massimo]: a podcast as well called them philosophy has a way of life with a colleague 792 00:35:30,574 --> 00:35:35,241 [massimo]: of mind called his name is rob culture a university of wyoming and what we 793 00:35:35,402 --> 00:35:37,104 [massimo]: do is we put out 794 00:35:37,383 --> 00:35:37,504 [zaza]: oh 795 00:35:37,725 --> 00:35:42,814 [massimo]: the podcast on a plat on a platform anchor in our case and then that 796 00:35:42,893 --> 00:35:43,015 [zaza]: then 797 00:35:42,894 --> 00:35:43,275 [massimo]: platform 798 00:35:43,117 --> 00:35:43,198 [zaza]: the 799 00:35:43,315 --> 00:35:48,483 [massimo]: actually distributes it to a number of other places like you know apple podcast google 800 00:35:48,543 --> 00:35:54,113 [massimo]: podcast et cetera and i advertise the part podcast to my mailing list i have 801 00:35:54,173 --> 00:35:58,340 [massimo]: an actual a mailing list of actual names and of people in email that is 802 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,361 [massimo]: now several thousand 803 00:35:59,285 --> 00:35:59,408 [zaza]: oh 804 00:35:59,822 --> 00:36:03,128 [massimo]: people turns out that and also i posted on 805 00:36:03,088 --> 00:36:03,109 [zaza]: i 806 00:36:03,168 --> 00:36:09,418 [massimo]: my block turns out that those return rates are much higher because if somebody gives 807 00:36:09,498 --> 00:36:14,266 [massimo]: you their email address to put on the list that means they really are interested 808 00:36:13,946 --> 00:36:14,047 [zaza]: are 809 00:36:14,286 --> 00:36:15,168 [massimo]: they're not just somebody 810 00:36:14,852 --> 00:36:15,195 [zaza]: no just 811 00:36:15,208 --> 00:36:20,035 [massimo]: who clicked like once you know five years ago and now he's a follower but 812 00:36:20,075 --> 00:36:24,641 [massimo]: he actually doesn't see anything of the stuff that i'm publishing so i 813 00:36:24,704 --> 00:36:24,805 [zaza]: so 814 00:36:24,721 --> 00:36:25,142 [massimo]: think that 815 00:36:25,049 --> 00:36:25,312 [zaza]: i think 816 00:36:25,642 --> 00:36:31,672 [massimo]: even that idea that you just brought up which is a very common point that 817 00:36:32,754 --> 00:36:38,624 [massimo]: podcasters and bloggers and authors off and bring up about the usefulness of social media 818 00:36:38,704 --> 00:36:40,327 [massimo]: turns out even now one is actually 819 00:36:40,173 --> 00:36:40,274 [zaza]: what 820 00:36:40,387 --> 00:36:45,135 [massimo]: highly debatable the return rate on social media is very low and there are alternatives 821 00:36:45,816 --> 00:36:46,317 [massimo]: i understand 822 00:36:46,222 --> 00:36:46,242 [zaza]: i 823 00:36:46,337 --> 00:36:49,382 [massimo]: you know if you say more i just put podcast in the void and nobody 824 00:36:49,402 --> 00:36:50,925 [massimo]: is going to listen then why am i going 825 00:36:50,955 --> 00:36:51,120 [zaza]: am i 826 00:36:51,345 --> 00:36:54,390 [massimo]: am i going to do make the effort but you don't have 827 00:36:54,263 --> 00:36:54,343 [zaza]: you 828 00:36:54,430 --> 00:36:58,257 [massimo]: to post in the void there are other ways to build an audience there there 829 00:36:58,317 --> 00:37:05,395 [massimo]: are more constructive ways of interacting with your audience so i honestly have not regretted 830 00:37:05,576 --> 00:37:06,157 [massimo]: that decision 831 00:37:06,942 --> 00:37:07,122 [zaza]: oh 832 00:37:08,460 --> 00:37:09,202 [massimo]: oh 833 00:37:08,464 --> 00:37:12,090 [zaza]: i love how you call it the void and also i think the underlying team 834 00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:15,276 [zaza]: of this episode should be a new hope like the star wars 835 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:16,560 [massimo]: that's 836 00:37:16,397 --> 00:37:16,698 [zaza]: the star 837 00:37:16,641 --> 00:37:16,821 [massimo]: right 838 00:37:16,798 --> 00:37:20,785 [zaza]: worse movie you know there's hope you get better i mean to to become a 839 00:37:20,825 --> 00:37:25,813 [zaza]: better person there's hope to quit social media i like it i like that if 840 00:37:25,853 --> 00:37:31,148 [zaza]: you go back to your book a little bit in the chapter the philosopher kings 841 00:37:31,650 --> 00:37:32,430 [massimo]: yeah 842 00:37:31,802 --> 00:37:35,227 [zaza]: you examine the life of the roman emperor marcus aurelius 843 00:37:35,980 --> 00:37:36,103 [massimo]: yep 844 00:37:36,469 --> 00:37:40,817 [zaza]: who you mentioned already who was a stoic and who wrote the famous meditations you 845 00:37:40,877 --> 00:37:41,237 [zaza]: write that 846 00:37:41,274 --> 00:37:41,437 [massimo]: yeah 847 00:37:41,558 --> 00:37:44,062 [zaza]: he kind of claim came closest to our mode of 848 00:37:44,072 --> 00:37:44,153 [massimo]: ah 849 00:37:44,182 --> 00:37:49,169 [zaza]: philosopher and statesman could you elaborate on his example a little bit and why it's 850 00:37:49,289 --> 00:37:50,571 [zaza]: still relevant today 851 00:37:52,131 --> 00:37:54,595 [massimo]: yeah so marcus was first of all a 852 00:37:54,706 --> 00:37:54,809 [zaza]: oh 853 00:37:54,715 --> 00:37:59,543 [massimo]: person who very consciously adopted philosophy as a way of life since he was a 854 00:37:59,603 --> 00:38:05,134 [massimo]: kid apparently studied studying stoicism and other follow a face when i was like thirteen 855 00:38:05,234 --> 00:38:11,677 [massimo]: or some twelve or thirteen and he consciously tried throughout his life to become a 856 00:38:11,717 --> 00:38:15,383 [massimo]: better person now did he succeed yeah to an extent i it was not a 857 00:38:15,443 --> 00:38:20,311 [massimo]: sage he was not a perfect human being or anything like that but in his 858 00:38:20,411 --> 00:38:24,338 [massimo]: case we have a lot of evidence of how it turned out some of that 859 00:38:24,398 --> 00:38:29,146 [massimo]: evidence is internal meaning it comes from him from him if you read the meditations 860 00:38:30,168 --> 00:38:36,298 [massimo]: which is his book the meditation was is philosophical journal so it was not meant 861 00:38:36,358 --> 00:38:41,667 [massimo]: for publication originally it was just his own thoughts about how to engage in self 862 00:38:41,767 --> 00:38:46,315 [massimo]: improvement and so you can learned a lot about the mind of marcus relies by 863 00:38:46,575 --> 00:38:51,063 [massimo]: just reading the meditations and pay attention to what was important for him how he 864 00:38:51,183 --> 00:38:57,057 [massimo]: reacted to setbacks and to issues that was in counted but we also have you 865 00:38:57,097 --> 00:39:01,904 [massimo]: know his rain is also very well documented we have a lot of archeological evidence 866 00:39:01,944 --> 00:39:05,232 [massimo]: we have a lot of historical evidence and all of that 867 00:39:05,142 --> 00:39:05,243 [zaza]: all 868 00:39:05,332 --> 00:39:11,385 [massimo]: evidence points to the fact that again despite not being perfect it certainly was much 869 00:39:11,505 --> 00:39:12,767 [massimo]: better than a lot of 870 00:39:12,823 --> 00:39:12,985 [zaza]: lot 871 00:39:13,028 --> 00:39:18,817 [massimo]: the other statesmen and you know emperors and kings of that period you really did 872 00:39:18,877 --> 00:39:24,172 [massimo]: try to do a lot of good so for instance i used to be he 873 00:39:24,312 --> 00:39:25,815 [massimo]: often was accused of 874 00:39:25,812 --> 00:39:26,389 [zaza]: ye 875 00:39:26,216 --> 00:39:27,478 [massimo]: persecuting christians 876 00:39:27,793 --> 00:39:27,936 [zaza]: yeah 877 00:39:28,539 --> 00:39:31,605 [massimo]: but it turns out that as a christian myth that was made up 878 00:39:31,843 --> 00:39:31,924 [zaza]: do 879 00:39:32,105 --> 00:39:32,646 [massimo]: by a 880 00:39:32,654 --> 00:39:32,674 [zaza]: i 881 00:39:34,229 --> 00:39:39,198 [massimo]: by a bishop that lived a little after a few years after marcus 882 00:39:39,103 --> 00:39:39,629 [zaza]: uzebios 883 00:39:39,258 --> 00:39:39,498 [massimo]: riles 884 00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:39,932 [zaza]: right 885 00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:44,887 [massimo]: yeah the story the history is actually the stoical evidence is pretty clear that 886 00:39:44,922 --> 00:39:45,186 [zaza]: oh 887 00:39:44,967 --> 00:39:49,976 [massimo]: in fact marcus did exactly the opposite once that he was made aware of the 888 00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:56,167 [massimo]: fact that some of his governors we're engaging in persecution of the christians in the 889 00:39:57,710 --> 00:40:00,615 [massimo]: outside a room so in some of the provinces he actually 890 00:40:00,534 --> 00:40:00,678 [zaza]: yes 891 00:40:00,735 --> 00:40:06,625 [massimo]: sent a letter to the government say under no circumstances you will prosecute a christian 892 00:40:06,745 --> 00:40:10,401 [massimo]: for being a christian you can only prosecute a christian if he has committed a 893 00:40:10,441 --> 00:40:14,945 [massimo]: crime which of course is what you do normally you know 894 00:40:15,042 --> 00:40:16,452 [zaza]: yeah 895 00:40:15,326 --> 00:40:16,929 [massimo]: with your citizens so he actually 896 00:40:16,957 --> 00:40:17,101 [zaza]: yeah 897 00:40:16,969 --> 00:40:22,698 [massimo]: did the opposite he was very tolerant of his wife for instance who was repeated 898 00:40:23,019 --> 00:40:27,506 [massimo]: you know offender she was she was sleeping around with other people all the time 899 00:40:28,167 --> 00:40:30,852 [massimo]: but he was very tolerant you know he could he was remember e was the 900 00:40:30,892 --> 00:40:34,157 [massimo]: emperor he could have literally had these people eliminated it's not like 901 00:40:34,303 --> 00:40:34,466 [zaza]: like 902 00:40:34,678 --> 00:40:39,823 [massimo]: you know this he had essentially absolute power close to absolute power so if he 903 00:40:39,863 --> 00:40:44,090 [massimo]: had gone let himself to be really seriously passed off he could have made a 904 00:40:44,310 --> 00:40:44,711 [massimo]: carnage 905 00:40:44,582 --> 00:40:45,183 [zaza]: which roman 906 00:40:45,212 --> 00:40:45,392 [massimo]: out of 907 00:40:45,403 --> 00:40:45,763 [zaza]: emperors 908 00:40:45,472 --> 00:40:45,673 [massimo]: people 909 00:40:45,803 --> 00:40:47,145 [zaza]: did all the time to be honest 910 00:40:47,095 --> 00:40:47,295 [massimo]: that's 911 00:40:47,245 --> 00:40:47,426 [zaza]: right 912 00:40:47,355 --> 00:40:49,158 [massimo]: right which a lot of roman emperors did 913 00:40:49,889 --> 00:40:50,009 [zaza]: yeah 914 00:40:50,421 --> 00:40:55,311 [massimo]: the other thing is at some point he faced in internal rebellion by one of 915 00:40:55,371 --> 00:41:01,221 [massimo]: these governors one of his lieutenants and what he did was again to try to 916 00:41:01,321 --> 00:41:07,411 [massimo]: negotiate first not to just straight go out and start a blood bath and then 917 00:41:07,491 --> 00:41:12,680 [massimo]: when the negotiations failed then he moved with his army fortunately the guy was actually 918 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,909 [massimo]: killed by his own one of his own centurians and so the rebellion ended but 919 00:41:18,049 --> 00:41:22,657 [massimo]: it was customary at the time that it's something like that happened the emperor will 920 00:41:22,817 --> 00:41:25,421 [massimo]: ask the senate to put to death all of the 921 00:41:25,433 --> 00:41:25,575 [zaza]: all 922 00:41:25,542 --> 00:41:33,094 [massimo]: media relatives of the rebel so in order to evil future unrest essentially including children 923 00:41:33,455 --> 00:41:39,144 [massimo]: there was just now there's no no half measure marcus didn't do that he pardoned 924 00:41:39,986 --> 00:41:45,535 [massimo]: people that were associated with the rebellion he did not go after the relatives of 925 00:41:46,016 --> 00:41:51,365 [massimo]: of the rebel himself so you know he showed himself to be a merciful reasonable 926 00:41:51,946 --> 00:41:56,754 [massimo]: leader and you know he had a cast dio who was a historian who lived 927 00:41:56,894 --> 00:42:02,022 [massimo]: shortly after marcus and that acts direct access to a lot of material about marco 928 00:42:02,223 --> 00:42:07,531 [massimo]: rio's life tells us that you know he is remembered great emperor and he could 929 00:42:07,571 --> 00:42:10,594 [massimo]: have been even better be even better 930 00:42:10,455 --> 00:42:10,475 [zaza]: i 931 00:42:10,774 --> 00:42:12,455 [massimo]: if in fact he had not been that 932 00:42:12,332 --> 00:42:12,393 [zaza]: no 933 00:42:12,576 --> 00:42:20,426 [massimo]: unlucky he faced as i said internal rebellion a major pestilence that killed two or 934 00:42:20,506 --> 00:42:25,394 [massimo]: three million people on the major plague of the antiquity the antonine plague hit the 935 00:42:25,715 --> 00:42:26,756 [massimo]: reign of marcus relies 936 00:42:26,952 --> 00:42:27,220 [zaza]: yeah 937 00:42:27,177 --> 00:42:31,464 [massimo]: to frontier war one on the east against the party in one in the north 938 00:42:31,544 --> 00:42:35,671 [massimo]: against the marcomani the german tribes so you know he had his hands 939 00:42:35,514 --> 00:42:35,534 [zaza]: a 940 00:42:35,811 --> 00:42:41,180 [massimo]: full one major flooding of the tiber that destroyed half a ream major quake that 941 00:42:41,261 --> 00:42:47,050 [massimo]: destroyed is mirror in modern western turkey so he had his hands full and nevertheless 942 00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:51,898 [massimo]: he rose to the occasion and did his best to address these issues that's what 943 00:42:51,958 --> 00:42:56,571 [massimo]: you want in a state you don't want you can't expect miracles because human beings 944 00:42:57,452 --> 00:43:01,719 [massimo]: and you cannot expect perfection either for the same reason because they're human beings but 945 00:43:01,759 --> 00:43:02,641 [massimo]: you can expect 946 00:43:02,424 --> 00:43:02,505 [zaza]: and 947 00:43:02,761 --> 00:43:06,207 [massimo]: that they're going to try to do their best when they face crisis where their 948 00:43:06,287 --> 00:43:06,567 [massimo]: best 949 00:43:06,612 --> 00:43:06,813 [zaza]: yes 950 00:43:06,687 --> 00:43:11,646 [massimo]: is not about self randizing is not about lining their pockets it's about helping people 951 00:43:13,662 --> 00:43:14,424 [zaza]: just to push back 952 00:43:14,686 --> 00:43:14,706 [massimo]: a 953 00:43:14,724 --> 00:43:15,686 [zaza]: just a tiny bit here 954 00:43:16,350 --> 00:43:16,472 [massimo]: sure 955 00:43:16,928 --> 00:43:21,616 [zaza]: you write that even though marcus aurelius knew for example and wrote about the inherent 956 00:43:21,776 --> 00:43:23,899 [zaza]: evil of slavery he didn't get rid of it 957 00:43:23,850 --> 00:43:24,960 [massimo]: yeah 958 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,836 [zaza]: because he quite couldn't and within the confines of that time 959 00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:27,830 [massimo]: yeah 960 00:43:29,302 --> 00:43:31,325 [zaza]: does the stoic way of life 961 00:43:31,130 --> 00:43:31,211 [massimo]: you 962 00:43:31,605 --> 00:43:36,994 [zaza]: that he personified kind of hit a ceiling where a more revolutionary type of 963 00:43:37,143 --> 00:43:37,163 [massimo]: i 964 00:43:37,375 --> 00:43:41,782 [zaza]: action is necessary like for example we know full well right now that don't do 965 00:43:41,922 --> 00:43:43,264 [zaza]: something really radical 966 00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:43,390 [massimo]: ah 967 00:43:43,364 --> 00:43:46,948 [zaza]: about our way of life climate change will result 968 00:43:47,124 --> 00:43:47,206 [massimo]: so 969 00:43:47,288 --> 00:43:49,150 [zaza]: in the collapse of our civilization 970 00:43:50,660 --> 00:43:53,745 [massimo]: yeah i think that's a fair question and i think the answer is yes that 971 00:43:53,945 --> 00:43:59,154 [massimo]: shows the limitations of stoicism as a philosophy i agree i mean stoicism is a 972 00:43:59,214 --> 00:44:04,262 [massimo]: great philosophy of life at a personal level it has helped me immensely 973 00:44:03,867 --> 00:44:03,950 [zaza]: ah 974 00:44:04,383 --> 00:44:08,109 [massimo]: it has helped a lot of people that i've read either my books or other 975 00:44:08,169 --> 00:44:10,593 [massimo]: books about modern stoicism so it's got a lot of good 976 00:44:10,483 --> 00:44:10,645 [zaza]: a lot 977 00:44:10,673 --> 00:44:16,103 [massimo]: stuff going on for it and to some extent one might so o respond to 978 00:44:16,143 --> 00:44:22,333 [massimo]: that question by pointing out that you know nobody criticizes other philosophies of life for 979 00:44:22,453 --> 00:44:26,580 [massimo]: failing to address structural problems and not like you go to christians or buddha for 980 00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:32,690 [massimo]: instance ance hey what about structural issues in society they will shrug ovens and 981 00:44:32,653 --> 00:44:32,733 [zaza]: go 982 00:44:32,730 --> 00:44:34,433 [massimo]: well this is not what this is about it's 983 00:44:34,392 --> 00:44:35,502 [zaza]: yeah 984 00:44:34,513 --> 00:44:40,143 [massimo]: about personal growth personal improvement not not about society but i agree with you that's 985 00:44:40,283 --> 00:44:45,772 [massimo]: not a good excuse i think in fact that that stoicism buddhism and christianity all 986 00:44:45,832 --> 00:44:50,620 [massimo]: three of them fail at that level because they do not take into account tructural 987 00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:57,912 [massimo]: level there are philosophies that do and the best example in ancient greece and rome 988 00:44:58,093 --> 00:45:04,383 [massimo]: is the type of skepticism that was put forth by cicero marcus tuliocisero was a 989 00:45:04,543 --> 00:45:11,575 [massimo]: roman statesman philosopher and public advocate so essentially a lawyer and he was a practical 990 00:45:11,384 --> 00:45:11,404 [zaza]: a 991 00:45:11,615 --> 00:45:17,886 [massimo]: person and he realized very clearly very consciously that philosophy has to address the structural 992 00:45:17,926 --> 00:45:22,994 [massimo]: level so you wrote a book called it has one of my favorite 993 00:45:22,677 --> 00:45:22,942 [zaza]: one of my 994 00:45:23,034 --> 00:45:23,355 [massimo]: titles 995 00:45:23,106 --> 00:45:23,352 [zaza]: favorite 996 00:45:23,715 --> 00:45:28,884 [massimo]: ever in latin is the finibus bon rum meta malorum which translates to on the 997 00:45:29,024 --> 00:45:31,288 [massimo]: ends of good and evil i just love that for 998 00:45:31,212 --> 00:45:31,553 [zaza]: oh 999 00:45:31,348 --> 00:45:35,194 [massimo]: some reason i just love that title it's a great it's a great title now 1000 00:45:35,976 --> 00:45:40,864 [massimo]: on the ends of good and evil he talks about uh the general issue of 1001 00:45:41,104 --> 00:45:43,969 [massimo]: what is good and what is not good because in these ideas being if you 1002 00:45:44,009 --> 00:45:47,415 [massimo]: don't have that in mind if you don't have that kind of moral compass that 1003 00:45:47,455 --> 00:45:50,740 [massimo]: you can distinguish good stuff from bad stuff then when even going 1004 00:45:50,683 --> 00:45:50,765 [zaza]: not 1005 00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:57,672 [massimo]: to start this conversation then he wrote on duty which is about personal philosophy it's 1006 00:45:57,712 --> 00:46:01,017 [massimo]: about okay how do you work within a society within whatever society 1007 00:46:00,652 --> 00:46:00,773 [zaza]: that 1008 00:46:01,057 --> 00:46:04,123 [massimo]: you happen to be even it is a tyranny you still have a duty 1009 00:46:03,983 --> 00:46:04,064 [zaza]: he 1010 00:46:04,203 --> 00:46:09,692 [massimo]: to be a good human being and so on duties addresses the issue of that 1011 00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:14,099 [massimo]: stoicism addresses the issue that christianity is and buddhism address that is how do you 1012 00:46:14,139 --> 00:46:19,388 [massimo]: live as an individual human being but he also wrote two other books the legible 1013 00:46:19,749 --> 00:46:24,497 [massimo]: on on the laws and the public on the republic where he actually 1014 00:46:24,252 --> 00:46:24,272 [zaza]: a 1015 00:46:24,577 --> 00:46:29,385 [massimo]: talks about what kind of law and state we want in other words he went 1016 00:46:29,445 --> 00:46:30,947 [massimo]: structural he said okay 1017 00:46:31,023 --> 00:46:31,225 [zaza]: okay 1018 00:46:31,067 --> 00:46:35,916 [massimo]: but it's great to be you know able to be a stoic let's say within 1019 00:46:35,976 --> 00:46:39,802 [massimo]: a society but sometimes we also need to ask ourselves what kind of society we 1020 00:46:39,882 --> 00:46:44,149 [massimo]: want and whether we need to make changes at what we would today call a 1021 00:46:44,209 --> 00:46:48,517 [massimo]: structural level we didn't use that word of course but at a structural level so 1022 00:46:48,657 --> 00:46:48,917 [massimo]: i think 1023 00:46:48,992 --> 00:46:49,012 [zaza]: i 1024 00:46:49,017 --> 00:46:56,009 [massimo]: actually that mandy ain't it's the sister really stands up he's often undervalued 1025 00:46:55,705 --> 00:46:55,787 [zaza]: the 1026 00:46:56,530 --> 00:47:02,600 [massimo]: because he's often presented as somebody who just translated greek philosophy right there is not 1027 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,346 [massimo]: an original philosopher of his own that is just just popularized 1028 00:47:06,435 --> 00:47:06,972 [zaza]: right 1029 00:47:06,647 --> 00:47:09,732 [massimo]: greek philosophy for the romans that's not true 1030 00:47:09,615 --> 00:47:09,697 [zaza]: so 1031 00:47:09,812 --> 00:47:13,678 [massimo]: i mean the guy wrote some really interesting original philosophy 1032 00:47:13,644 --> 00:47:13,746 [zaza]: oh 1033 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,368 [massimo]: especially political philosophy which was a novel thing at the time you know nobody was 1034 00:47:19,588 --> 00:47:26,460 [massimo]: was paying attention to the structural level so it is possible for a philosophy to 1035 00:47:26,620 --> 00:47:31,428 [massimo]: address both the personal and the structural level and i would argue that it should 1036 00:47:31,528 --> 00:47:36,717 [massimo]: be you know addressed and so yes that is a limitation of stoicism but to 1037 00:47:36,777 --> 00:47:38,962 [massimo]: be fair is not just those it's a lot of 1038 00:47:39,063 --> 00:47:39,084 [zaza]: a 1039 00:47:39,584 --> 00:47:42,816 [massimo]: personal philosophies and religions that fall into the same kind of trap 1040 00:47:44,172 --> 00:47:48,359 [zaza]: um but if you are for example trying to adopt a more stoic way of 1041 00:47:48,459 --> 00:47:51,304 [zaza]: life how do you know when you've been 1042 00:47:51,181 --> 00:47:51,363 [massimo]: yes 1043 00:47:51,344 --> 00:47:58,322 [zaza]: improving or concentrating on yourself too much kind of to the neglect of your responsibilities 1044 00:47:58,543 --> 00:48:01,082 [zaza]: to society for example their 1045 00:48:01,132 --> 00:48:01,272 [massimo]: yeah 1046 00:48:01,183 --> 00:48:01,404 [zaza]: way to 1047 00:48:01,373 --> 00:48:01,533 [massimo]: that's 1048 00:48:01,464 --> 00:48:01,947 [zaza]: combine 1049 00:48:01,593 --> 00:48:01,613 [massimo]: a 1050 00:48:02,007 --> 00:48:02,208 [zaza]: the two 1051 00:48:03,116 --> 00:48:03,656 [massimo]: yeah that's a good 1052 00:48:03,552 --> 00:48:03,693 [zaza]: in a 1053 00:48:03,697 --> 00:48:03,977 [massimo]: question 1054 00:48:03,713 --> 00:48:04,518 [zaza]: more practical way 1055 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,122 [massimo]: yeah i think i think that's a good question i think 1056 00:48:07,132 --> 00:48:08,082 [zaza]: okay 1057 00:48:07,142 --> 00:48:13,786 [massimo]: there is there is a way you know unfortunately too often today stoicism is presented 1058 00:48:14,087 --> 00:48:19,136 [massimo]: as a philosophy philosophy of self improvement as if other people were not you know 1059 00:48:19,176 --> 00:48:19,417 [massimo]: did not 1060 00:48:19,482 --> 00:48:20,442 [zaza]: yeah 1061 00:48:19,497 --> 00:48:25,907 [massimo]: exist it's often presented as a set of of life hacks more than a philosophy 1062 00:48:25,988 --> 00:48:26,208 [massimo]: right 1063 00:48:26,172 --> 00:48:26,433 [zaza]: yeah a 1064 00:48:26,448 --> 00:48:26,528 [massimo]: so 1065 00:48:26,493 --> 00:48:26,593 [zaza]: lot 1066 00:48:26,629 --> 00:48:26,669 [massimo]: if 1067 00:48:26,653 --> 00:48:26,713 [zaza]: of 1068 00:48:26,749 --> 00:48:26,829 [massimo]: you 1069 00:48:26,753 --> 00:48:28,175 [zaza]: these like cos 1070 00:48:27,252 --> 00:48:27,520 [massimo]: it's like 1071 00:48:28,596 --> 00:48:28,656 [zaza]: and 1072 00:48:28,644 --> 00:48:28,806 [massimo]: yeah 1073 00:48:28,776 --> 00:48:29,117 [zaza]: you know 1074 00:48:29,129 --> 00:48:29,271 [massimo]: right 1075 00:48:29,578 --> 00:48:33,324 [zaza]: new age gurus will talk about like the outube is full of like 1076 00:48:33,421 --> 00:48:33,765 [massimo]: love 1077 00:48:34,045 --> 00:48:37,070 [zaza]: vireos of people who espouse 1078 00:48:36,912 --> 00:48:37,014 [massimo]: this 1079 00:48:37,110 --> 00:48:38,993 [zaza]: this sort of huss culture you know 1080 00:48:39,170 --> 00:48:39,290 [massimo]: right 1081 00:48:39,554 --> 00:48:45,785 [zaza]: and they are they're talking about stoicism kind of helped me elevate my entropreneurship and 1082 00:48:45,845 --> 00:48:46,185 [zaza]: all that 1083 00:48:46,260 --> 00:48:46,701 [massimo]: exactly 1084 00:48:46,286 --> 00:48:46,546 [zaza]: stuff 1085 00:48:46,861 --> 00:48:47,162 [massimo]: in other 1086 00:48:47,147 --> 00:48:47,247 [zaza]: and 1087 00:48:47,222 --> 00:48:47,462 [massimo]: words 1088 00:48:47,307 --> 00:48:52,039 [zaza]: it's a bit i think you call it saw an interview with you where you 1089 00:48:52,119 --> 00:48:54,667 [zaza]: call it stoicism with the dollar in right 1090 00:48:54,910 --> 00:48:56,012 [massimo]: that's right exactly 1091 00:48:56,365 --> 00:48:56,426 [zaza]: at 1092 00:48:56,533 --> 00:48:59,758 [massimo]: so now what you're saying is that you tube is full of crap yes i 1093 00:48:59,858 --> 00:49:00,179 [massimo]: agree 1094 00:49:01,415 --> 00:49:03,458 [zaza]: this podcast will appear on your tube as well so 1095 00:49:04,065 --> 00:49:06,289 [massimo]: well i didn't say that it's all crap 1096 00:49:06,784 --> 00:49:07,605 [zaza]: all right nice 1097 00:49:07,912 --> 00:49:08,012 [massimo]: but 1098 00:49:08,006 --> 00:49:08,206 [zaza]: thank 1099 00:49:08,072 --> 00:49:08,212 [massimo]: there 1100 00:49:08,246 --> 00:49:08,326 [zaza]: you 1101 00:49:08,252 --> 00:49:08,332 [massimo]: is 1102 00:49:08,367 --> 00:49:08,587 [zaza]: for the 1103 00:49:08,593 --> 00:49:08,693 [massimo]: but 1104 00:49:08,647 --> 00:49:09,088 [zaza]: distinction 1105 00:49:08,713 --> 00:49:10,195 [massimo]: there is a lot of it right exactly 1106 00:49:10,310 --> 00:49:11,211 [zaza]: i agree absolutely 1107 00:49:11,718 --> 00:49:16,225 [massimo]: look i get invited because i wrote how to be a stoic i get invited 1108 00:49:16,366 --> 00:49:20,092 [massimo]: from time to time to give talks to corporate s or two you know some 1109 00:49:20,152 --> 00:49:24,599 [massimo]: kind of business groups and i warned them that i said yeah i can i 1110 00:49:24,659 --> 00:49:27,104 [massimo]: can do that but i'm going to talk about the philosophy i'm not going 1111 00:49:27,111 --> 00:49:27,251 [zaza]: yeah 1112 00:49:27,124 --> 00:49:29,107 [massimo]: to talk about the life hacker kind of kind 1113 00:49:29,057 --> 00:49:29,220 [zaza]: yeah 1114 00:49:29,147 --> 00:49:29,407 [massimo]: of thing 1115 00:49:30,012 --> 00:49:30,253 [zaza]: yeah 1116 00:49:30,189 --> 00:49:31,931 [massimo]: and so do give a talk and then i 1117 00:49:32,275 --> 00:49:32,295 [zaza]: i 1118 00:49:32,732 --> 00:49:36,217 [massimo]: tell them usually near the end of the talk is like look if you really 1119 00:49:36,277 --> 00:49:43,398 [massimo]: understand stoicism then you will understand that building your business in order to make money 1120 00:49:43,859 --> 00:49:49,368 [massimo]: is a preferred indifferent meaning it is something that actually has no not much value 1121 00:49:49,448 --> 00:49:52,113 [massimo]: for your life you need to do it because you know you need to pay 1122 00:49:52,153 --> 00:49:58,103 [massimo]: your built and that's fine has it has practical value but it's not really what's 1123 00:49:58,163 --> 00:50:01,568 [massimo]: important in your life and if you think that that is in fact one of 1124 00:50:01,588 --> 00:50:04,834 [massimo]: the most important things you need to do to build your business to be successful 1125 00:50:04,954 --> 00:50:11,806 [massimo]: to make money et cetera then you completely misunderstood stoic philosophy stoicism is about becoming 1126 00:50:11,866 --> 00:50:14,190 [massimo]: a better human being and it's about helping 1127 00:50:14,134 --> 00:50:14,295 [zaza]: help 1128 00:50:14,410 --> 00:50:20,360 [massimo]: other people becoming better human beings one of the fundamental ideas of stoicism is cosmopolitan 1129 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,987 [massimo]: ism is the notion that we should treat every single human being on the planet 1130 00:50:25,288 --> 00:50:31,899 [massimo]: as if they were brothers and sisters that's incompatible i would say with a strong 1131 00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:36,286 [massimo]: form of capitalism and a strong form of consumerism is just you cannot do it 1132 00:50:36,947 --> 00:50:39,673 [massimo]: if you are going to there is no way for 1133 00:50:39,625 --> 00:50:39,809 [zaza]: what 1134 00:50:39,754 --> 00:50:45,064 [massimo]: instance in my mind at least that you can become a billionaire without urging other 1135 00:50:45,104 --> 00:50:46,988 [massimo]: people it's just it's just not going to happen 1136 00:50:47,142 --> 00:50:47,263 [zaza]: ye 1137 00:50:47,428 --> 00:50:50,774 [massimo]: you have to exploit other people in order to make that much money 1138 00:50:51,192 --> 00:50:51,352 [zaza]: yep 1139 00:50:52,116 --> 00:50:55,762 [massimo]: and therefore if you if i look at and you and you are you know 1140 00:50:55,862 --> 00:50:58,547 [massimo]: a mask or a jeff bases or somebody like that 1141 00:50:58,654 --> 00:50:58,818 [zaza]: yeah 1142 00:50:59,248 --> 00:51:02,133 [massimo]: i'm going to tell you straight out i'm sorry you're not a story you might 1143 00:51:02,213 --> 00:51:07,682 [massimo]: think you your practice does but no there's no way o that that is stoicism 1144 00:51:08,864 --> 00:51:12,951 [massimo]: the stoics don't have a problem with wealth they don't have a problem with money 1145 00:51:13,532 --> 00:51:18,520 [massimo]: epictetus at the beginning of the discourses tells you money is fine because and you 1146 00:51:18,581 --> 00:51:21,587 [massimo]: can do things with money but the question is what are you going to do 1147 00:51:21,707 --> 00:51:25,917 [massimo]: with money and the money itself doesn't tell you what tells you is your faculty 1148 00:51:25,957 --> 00:51:31,146 [massimo]: of judgment and you can use money for good to help other people to make 1149 00:51:31,186 --> 00:51:33,410 [massimo]: the world a better place or you can use it for bad 1150 00:51:33,495 --> 00:51:33,660 [zaza]: bah 1151 00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:38,278 [massimo]: for you know to undermine the political process to buy politicians and stuff like that 1152 00:51:38,338 --> 00:51:39,099 [massimo]: to corrupt people 1153 00:51:39,102 --> 00:51:39,762 [zaza]: yeah 1154 00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:39,720 [massimo]: so 1155 00:51:39,926 --> 00:51:40,028 [zaza]: so 1156 00:51:39,941 --> 00:51:45,470 [massimo]: it's entirely after you money in itself is neutral from a moral perspective it's what 1157 00:51:45,530 --> 00:51:49,476 [massimo]: you do with that money that matters and that is a matter of your judgment 1158 00:51:49,617 --> 00:51:55,046 [massimo]: it's a matter of your your virtue and unfortunately a lot of these people don't 1159 00:51:55,086 --> 00:51:59,193 [massimo]: want to hear that they don't they don't really like the notion of being told 1160 00:51:59,313 --> 00:52:00,375 [massimo]: about virtue they want 1161 00:52:00,342 --> 00:52:01,092 [zaza]: yeah 1162 00:52:00,415 --> 00:52:05,609 [massimo]: to know how to make more money or to become successful case they completely misunderstood 1163 00:52:06,131 --> 00:52:07,175 [massimo]: what it means to be a stoic 1164 00:52:08,012 --> 00:52:11,621 [zaza]: so do you get invited to less and less of these talks 1165 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,142 [massimo]: yeah yeah that's right i haven't i 1166 00:52:14,208 --> 00:52:15,732 [zaza]: okay 1167 00:52:14,222 --> 00:52:17,685 [massimo]: haven't had one of those in invitations in a while and that's okay that's fine 1168 00:52:17,683 --> 00:52:17,763 [zaza]: the 1169 00:52:17,705 --> 00:52:17,826 [massimo]: with 1170 00:52:17,823 --> 00:52:18,043 [zaza]: word 1171 00:52:17,866 --> 00:52:17,946 [massimo]: me 1172 00:52:18,103 --> 00:52:18,604 [zaza]: has spread 1173 00:52:19,747 --> 00:52:20,468 [massimo]: the word at spread 1174 00:52:21,369 --> 00:52:24,514 [zaza]: um we talked about it a little bit already when we talked 1175 00:52:24,420 --> 00:52:24,620 [massimo]: yeah 1176 00:52:24,554 --> 00:52:27,379 [zaza]: about social media but it seems that the world is moving in the 1177 00:52:27,629 --> 00:52:27,729 [massimo]: yeah 1178 00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:33,209 [zaza]: quite the opposite direction of stoic ideals were all plugged into our echo chambers all 1179 00:52:33,249 --> 00:52:33,629 [zaza]: the time 1180 00:52:33,570 --> 00:52:33,731 [massimo]: ye 1181 00:52:33,830 --> 00:52:39,679 [zaza]: instant gratification is definitely a thing this celebrity culture has gone completely off the rails 1182 00:52:41,142 --> 00:52:42,143 [zaza]: a longer conversation 1183 00:52:41,672 --> 00:52:42,326 [massimo]: long 1184 00:52:42,324 --> 00:52:46,030 [zaza]: such as this one we're having right now is almost an oddity in the public 1185 00:52:46,130 --> 00:52:51,219 [zaza]: sphere if you don't want to live in the desert is it even possible to 1186 00:52:51,279 --> 00:52:53,826 [zaza]: pursue stoic ideals in today 1187 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:54,088 [massimo]: yeah 1188 00:52:53,926 --> 00:52:54,448 [zaza]: society 1189 00:52:55,841 --> 00:52:56,101 [massimo]: i think 1190 00:52:56,176 --> 00:52:56,196 [zaza]: i 1191 00:52:56,202 --> 00:52:56,442 [massimo]: it is 1192 00:52:56,383 --> 00:52:56,403 [zaza]: i 1193 00:52:56,702 --> 00:53:02,951 [massimo]: possible and i think in fact that that is one of the major values the 1194 00:53:03,011 --> 00:53:07,118 [massimo]: major reasons why people should be pursuing story exactly because 1195 00:53:07,356 --> 00:53:07,890 [zaza]: oh 1196 00:53:07,359 --> 00:53:13,629 [massimo]: it presents a counterpoint to so much that is wrong with our society today if 1197 00:53:13,890 --> 00:53:22,103 [massimo]: start practicing stoicism even at a beginning level certainly without becoming a sage you will 1198 00:53:22,203 --> 00:53:27,713 [massimo]: find yourself less into social media you will find yourself last into gossiping you will 1199 00:53:27,753 --> 00:53:33,242 [massimo]: find yourself paying less attention to consumerism and stuff like that and your life 1200 00:53:33,353 --> 00:53:33,475 [zaza]: my 1201 00:53:34,203 --> 00:53:38,070 [massimo]: and i would argue the life of the planet would be would be better when 1202 00:53:38,111 --> 00:53:43,551 [massimo]: the stoics say that you should be paying attention to the cosmopolis and never do 1203 00:53:43,691 --> 00:53:50,443 [massimo]: anything that undermines the cosmaplsthe large family of humanity people might think 1204 00:53:50,295 --> 00:53:50,419 [zaza]: my 1205 00:53:50,543 --> 00:53:50,743 [massimo]: well 1206 00:53:50,584 --> 00:53:50,832 [zaza]: things 1207 00:53:51,364 --> 00:53:51,745 [massimo]: who am i 1208 00:53:52,095 --> 00:53:52,115 [zaza]: i 1209 00:53:52,306 --> 00:53:56,313 [massimo]: now i can't undermine the cosmopolis i'm not depressed in the united states i'm not 1210 00:53:56,413 --> 00:53:56,753 [massimo]: i'm not in 1211 00:53:56,813 --> 00:53:56,894 [zaza]: i'm 1212 00:53:56,813 --> 00:53:57,054 [massimo]: charge 1213 00:53:56,954 --> 00:53:57,035 [zaza]: not 1214 00:53:57,114 --> 00:53:57,635 [massimo]: of anything 1215 00:53:57,318 --> 00:53:57,338 [zaza]: a 1216 00:53:57,755 --> 00:54:00,900 [massimo]: so how can i possibly undermine the cosmopolis but i think 1217 00:54:00,992 --> 00:54:01,012 [zaza]: i 1218 00:54:01,020 --> 00:54:01,161 [massimo]: that 1219 00:54:01,093 --> 00:54:01,254 [zaza]: think 1220 00:54:01,261 --> 00:54:06,329 [massimo]: you undermine the cosmopolis by doing all sorts of minor things when you mistreat other 1221 00:54:06,409 --> 00:54:09,314 [massimo]: p you undermine the cosmopolis when you 1222 00:54:09,297 --> 00:54:09,762 [zaza]: what 1223 00:54:09,535 --> 00:54:12,760 [massimo]: get angry with other people online or offline 1224 00:54:12,774 --> 00:54:12,876 [zaza]: oh 1225 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:18,770 [massimo]: your undermining the cosmopolis when you're making bad decisions from an environmental perspective at a 1226 00:54:18,890 --> 00:54:23,718 [massimo]: personal level you are undermining the cosmopolis and you know it's easy enough for us 1227 00:54:24,019 --> 00:54:26,763 [massimo]: it's easy for us to keep complaining about the politicians 1228 00:54:26,384 --> 00:54:26,466 [zaza]: oh 1229 00:54:26,823 --> 00:54:29,929 [massimo]: and not doing anything about climate change true and what are you 1230 00:54:30,003 --> 00:54:30,084 [zaza]: what 1231 00:54:30,009 --> 00:54:30,489 [massimo]: doing exact 1232 00:54:31,332 --> 00:54:31,558 [zaza]: yeah 1233 00:54:31,780 --> 00:54:34,945 [massimo]: start start with yourself are you recytling 1234 00:54:34,425 --> 00:54:34,648 [zaza]: are you 1235 00:54:35,085 --> 00:54:39,933 [massimo]: are you moving toward a vegetarian diet dare you reducing your foot print you know 1236 00:54:40,294 --> 00:54:42,538 [massimo]: carbon for are you doing those things because if you're not 1237 00:54:42,712 --> 00:54:42,792 [zaza]: no 1238 00:54:42,898 --> 00:54:47,005 [massimo]: then you really have have much right to complain about what the politicians are doing 1239 00:54:47,065 --> 00:54:50,611 [massimo]: because they're not doing anything different from what you're doing so yeah i think 1240 00:54:50,562 --> 00:54:50,683 [zaza]: yeah 1241 00:54:50,671 --> 00:54:58,224 [massimo]: that stoicism is a necessary and very welcome counter to the kind of societal issues 1242 00:54:58,264 --> 00:55:03,653 [massimo]: and socitale attitudes that they are creating so much trouble now if you're asking me 1243 00:55:04,114 --> 00:55:07,199 [massimo]: well is to sin by itself going to be able to change the world i'm 1244 00:55:07,259 --> 00:55:07,539 [massimo]: not that 1245 00:55:07,668 --> 00:55:07,729 [zaza]: no 1246 00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:13,650 [massimo]: domestic but it will make change the world at least at a local level at 1247 00:55:13,730 --> 00:55:18,938 [massimo]: least at the level of individuals and the stoics really did believe that change comes 1248 00:55:19,059 --> 00:55:23,386 [massimo]: from oh it's from from the bottom up not you cannot impose 1249 00:55:23,295 --> 00:55:23,337 [zaza]: if 1250 00:55:24,007 --> 00:55:28,094 [massimo]: societal changes from from the top that may or may not be right i do 1251 00:55:28,174 --> 00:55:32,081 [massimo]: think that we need some structural changes as we were talking about a few minutes 1252 00:55:32,121 --> 00:55:35,971 [massimo]: ago but certainly it's not a bad idea to start from the from the bottom 1253 00:55:36,031 --> 00:55:40,461 [massimo]: and say look i am trying to do my best and by and i lead 1254 00:55:40,562 --> 00:55:45,670 [massimo]: by example one of the things that pictedussays in the discourses is don't talk to 1255 00:55:45,710 --> 00:55:49,917 [massimo]: other people about stoicism don't talk to other people about how to be good just 1256 00:55:50,017 --> 00:55:55,227 [massimo]: be good on they'll follow and then they'll realize like wow okay this guy is 1257 00:55:55,547 --> 00:55:57,431 [massimo]: acting in this way why is that and 1258 00:55:57,417 --> 00:55:57,498 [zaza]: ah 1259 00:55:57,932 --> 00:56:01,719 [massimo]: then then you are teaching by example not just by talking to people 1260 00:56:02,912 --> 00:56:05,578 [zaza]: if i can ask you something a little bit more personal you mentioned it during 1261 00:56:05,618 --> 00:56:10,589 [zaza]: the conversation that stoicism personally helped you could you talk could you say a little 1262 00:56:10,609 --> 00:56:11,290 [zaza]: bit more about that 1263 00:56:12,971 --> 00:56:19,061 [massimo]: well i started getting interested in practical philosophy initially more generally and then stoicism in 1264 00:56:19,122 --> 00:56:21,425 [massimo]: particular a number of years ago simply because i 1265 00:56:21,432 --> 00:56:21,677 [zaza]: oh 1266 00:56:21,485 --> 00:56:25,913 [massimo]: was going through a mid life crisis like many people so it was a difficult 1267 00:56:25,973 --> 00:56:29,719 [massimo]: time in my life that was you know my father died i was hit by 1268 00:56:29,799 --> 00:56:34,307 [massimo]: a divorce that i was not expecting you know that sort of stuff nothing particularly 1269 00:56:34,347 --> 00:56:35,228 [massimo]: unusual it's not like 1270 00:56:35,445 --> 00:56:35,610 [zaza]: like 1271 00:56:36,110 --> 00:56:40,898 [massimo]: o no no major catastrophe s but nevertheless the kind of things that makes you 1272 00:56:41,419 --> 00:56:41,879 [massimo]: stop for a 1273 00:56:41,864 --> 00:56:42,028 [zaza]: stop 1274 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:46,728 [massimo]: minute and say who how am i going to deal with this and i discovered 1275 00:56:46,788 --> 00:56:50,780 [massimo]: that i had no resourc is to deal to deal with it because i considered 1276 00:56:50,821 --> 00:56:55,854 [massimo]: myself you know i grew up catholic in rome and i left the church when 1277 00:56:55,894 --> 00:57:01,503 [massimo]: i was a teen ager and then after leaving catholicism i considered myself a secular 1278 00:57:01,543 --> 00:57:03,707 [massimo]: humanist which is a general label for 1279 00:57:03,792 --> 00:57:04,372 [zaza]: yeah 1280 00:57:03,847 --> 00:57:06,592 [massimo]: saying you know somebody who doesn't really believe in gods 1281 00:57:06,314 --> 00:57:06,714 [zaza]: yeah we're 1282 00:57:06,712 --> 00:57:06,812 [massimo]: and 1283 00:57:06,734 --> 00:57:07,955 [zaza]: all saying that about ourselves 1284 00:57:07,974 --> 00:57:09,456 [massimo]: yeah exactly like a 1285 00:57:09,777 --> 00:57:10,177 [zaza]: because it's 1286 00:57:10,137 --> 00:57:10,318 [massimo]: okay 1287 00:57:10,197 --> 00:57:10,357 [zaza]: very 1288 00:57:10,358 --> 00:57:10,638 [massimo]: whatever 1289 00:57:10,457 --> 00:57:11,919 [zaza]: non committal you know it 1290 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:12,401 [massimo]: exactly 1291 00:57:11,959 --> 00:57:12,819 [zaza]: can mean a lot of things 1292 00:57:13,423 --> 00:57:18,074 [massimo]: exactly it's pretty non committal it doesn't you know you're still something but it's not 1293 00:57:18,155 --> 00:57:19,001 [massimo]: clear really what it is 1294 00:57:19,561 --> 00:57:20,004 [zaza]: exactly 1295 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:21,401 [massimo]: and when i 1296 00:57:21,593 --> 00:57:21,673 [zaza]: no 1297 00:57:21,661 --> 00:57:28,993 [massimo]: starting having running into setbacks of the kind that i mentioned i discovered that psychohumanism 1298 00:57:29,053 --> 00:57:32,960 [massimo]: was not giving me any resources on how to deal with the sitar and i 1299 00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:33,942 [massimo]: certainly wasn't going to 1300 00:57:33,909 --> 00:57:34,032 [zaza]: what 1301 00:57:33,982 --> 00:57:39,230 [massimo]: go back to religion that would not that was that path was precluded by my 1302 00:57:39,451 --> 00:57:41,875 [massimo]: understanding of how the world works and 1303 00:57:42,178 --> 00:57:42,261 [zaza]: ah 1304 00:57:42,235 --> 00:57:46,684 [massimo]: then i started looking around and when i started ing around i very quickly 1305 00:57:46,662 --> 00:57:46,923 [zaza]: oh 1306 00:57:46,924 --> 00:57:54,730 [massimo]: realized that a good answer would come from the general area of virtual ethics most 1307 00:57:54,810 --> 00:58:00,359 [massimo]: of the grakoroman philosophies are falling to the category of virtue this meaning that it's 1308 00:58:00,439 --> 00:58:05,147 [massimo]: a way of living your life that is based on the notion of virtue and 1309 00:58:05,207 --> 00:58:05,408 [massimo]: then i 1310 00:58:05,433 --> 00:58:05,554 [zaza]: and 1311 00:58:05,488 --> 00:58:05,768 [massimo]: started 1312 00:58:05,594 --> 00:58:05,695 [zaza]: then 1313 00:58:05,848 --> 00:58:10,076 [massimo]: exploring some of the obvious ones i looked at aristotle and then i looked at 1314 00:58:10,136 --> 00:58:15,124 [massimo]: epicurus and both of them had interesting things to say but it didn't really click 1315 00:58:15,805 --> 00:58:18,049 [massimo]: i could not see myself going around saying yeah 1316 00:58:18,323 --> 00:58:18,444 [zaza]: yeah 1317 00:58:18,550 --> 00:58:18,890 [massimo]: italian 1318 00:58:19,452 --> 00:58:19,653 [zaza]: oh 1319 00:58:19,772 --> 00:58:23,197 [massimo]: or even i'm an epicurean and then i discord 1320 00:58:23,083 --> 00:58:23,143 [zaza]: he 1321 00:58:23,258 --> 00:58:27,184 [massimo]: i rediscovered stoss because it turns out that i actually had read seneca when i 1322 00:58:27,244 --> 00:58:30,650 [massimo]: was in high school and i read marcasrlis when i was in college but never 1323 00:58:30,730 --> 00:58:33,795 [massimo]: actually connected the two somehow i never thought 1324 00:58:33,764 --> 00:58:33,906 [zaza]: never 1325 00:58:33,895 --> 00:58:39,485 [massimo]: o wait they're talking about the same stuff here so i rediscovered stoicism and and 1326 00:58:39,545 --> 00:58:45,895 [massimo]: that that clicked in particular the first stoic that i re read was epictetus actually 1327 00:58:45,915 --> 00:58:49,040 [massimo]: that i read for the first time because i had no idea who epitetos was 1328 00:58:49,882 --> 00:58:54,890 [massimo]: and i immediately thought why did i not know who this guy was this is 1329 00:58:54,951 --> 00:59:00,563 [massimo]: this a major philosopher that ought to be well known by everybody and that clicked 1330 00:59:00,924 --> 00:59:07,926 [massimo]: so epictetus really spoke to me and clarified a number of things and aguably and 1331 00:59:07,966 --> 00:59:12,033 [massimo]: maybe we can sort of close on on this one the the most important thing 1332 00:59:12,153 --> 00:59:17,763 [massimo]: that taught me was what he himself referred to as the fundamental rule of life 1333 00:59:18,784 --> 00:59:19,526 [massimo]: and the fundamental 1334 00:59:19,553 --> 00:59:19,634 [zaza]: and 1335 00:59:19,586 --> 00:59:23,172 [massimo]: rule of life is the notion that some things are up to me 1336 00:59:23,154 --> 00:59:23,235 [zaza]: oh 1337 00:59:23,352 --> 00:59:27,238 [massimo]: and other things are not up to me and good life is made out of 1338 00:59:27,339 --> 00:59:30,324 [massimo]: paying attent and to the things that are up to me because that's where my 1339 00:59:30,484 --> 00:59:36,113 [massimo]: agency lies that's where i can actually do things and then developing a attitude of 1340 00:59:36,213 --> 00:59:41,362 [massimo]: acceptance and equanimity for the kinds of things that are not up yea and so 1341 00:59:41,562 --> 00:59:49,796 [massimo]: this this basic room which is very simple to understand has essentially infinite applications from 1342 00:59:50,137 --> 00:59:54,862 [massimo]: now it has helped me from dealing with my flight being cancelled at the airport 1343 00:59:55,262 --> 00:59:59,366 [massimo]: so you know minor things like that to major things like the pandemic during the 1344 00:59:59,386 --> 01:00:00,447 [massimo]: pandemic i ended up in the 1345 01:00:00,483 --> 01:00:01,152 [zaza]: oh 1346 01:00:00,487 --> 01:00:06,494 [massimo]: emergency room a couple of times and that was not pleasant experience but epititos rule 1347 01:00:06,634 --> 01:00:09,479 [massimo]: immediately taught me you know it came to mind me and i said okay well 1348 01:00:09,659 --> 01:00:13,906 [massimo]: what can i do actually here i can go to the emergency room i can 1349 01:00:13,986 --> 01:00:18,033 [massimo]: listen to what the doctors are saying i can bring a book with me so 1350 01:00:18,093 --> 01:00:20,357 [massimo]: that i don't get bored the rest is 1351 01:00:20,292 --> 01:00:21,762 [zaza]: yeah 1352 01:00:20,437 --> 01:00:22,561 [massimo]: not going to be up to me it's going to be up to the doctor's 1353 01:00:22,621 --> 01:00:26,107 [massimo]: it's goin be up to luck to some extent it's going to be up to 1354 01:00:26,227 --> 01:00:30,638 [massimo]: whatever medicines the they're give me and that immediately calmed down 1355 01:00:30,706 --> 01:00:30,850 [zaza]: yeah 1356 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,186 [massimo]: the whole the whole approach to things like okay so let me let me focus 1357 01:00:35,286 --> 01:00:39,613 [massimo]: on what i actually can do and and the rest it will be what whatever 1358 01:00:39,693 --> 01:00:44,602 [massimo]: it will be that thing that single concept that just tell me which by the 1359 01:00:44,643 --> 01:00:50,537 [massimo]: way you find actually in other cultures it pops up in judaism christianity and buddhism 1360 01:00:50,698 --> 01:00:57,028 [massimo]: even is it really it really is a fundamental role in life rule in life 1361 01:00:57,429 --> 01:01:00,193 [massimo]: if you train yourself whatever you're 1362 01:01:00,093 --> 01:01:00,256 [zaza]: ever 1363 01:01:00,273 --> 01:01:02,817 [massimo]: facing to ask the first question 1364 01:01:02,548 --> 01:01:03,198 [zaza]: first question 1365 01:01:02,878 --> 01:01:06,968 [massimo]: you ask yourself what here is up to me and what is not and then 1366 01:01:07,008 --> 01:01:09,676 [massimo]: you act accordingly you're half the way there 1367 01:01:11,313 --> 01:01:15,620 [zaza]: professor pilluchi that was such a beautiful conclusion and i hate to spoil it but 1368 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:16,121 [zaza]: i'll have 1369 01:01:15,922 --> 01:01:15,942 [massimo]: i 1370 01:01:16,221 --> 01:01:18,845 [zaza]: to with the very last question the title of this 1371 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:18,860 [massimo]: m 1372 01:01:19,246 --> 01:01:19,707 [zaza]: podcast 1373 01:01:19,284 --> 01:01:19,304 [massimo]: h 1374 01:01:19,767 --> 01:01:19,847 [zaza]: is 1375 01:01:19,869 --> 01:01:19,890 [massimo]: m 1376 01:01:19,967 --> 01:01:23,333 [zaza]: our trash which means i have to ask you something a little bit trashy at 1377 01:01:23,393 --> 01:01:23,734 [zaza]: the end 1378 01:01:23,940 --> 01:01:26,988 [massimo]: uh 1379 01:01:24,375 --> 01:01:27,800 [zaza]: let me open up the book again really really quickly 1380 01:01:27,660 --> 01:01:28,023 [massimo]: oh 1381 01:01:28,802 --> 01:01:30,386 [zaza]: i have it marked over here 1382 01:01:30,592 --> 01:01:31,470 [massimo]: ah 1383 01:01:30,967 --> 01:01:36,638 [zaza]: yes here we go okay i will just read a tiny little bit plato famously 1384 01:01:36,312 --> 01:01:36,516 [massimo]: you go 1385 01:01:36,718 --> 01:01:43,369 [zaza]: recognized four cardinal virtues later inherited by the stoics practical wit wisdom courage justice and 1386 01:01:43,296 --> 01:01:43,417 [massimo]: yeah 1387 01:01:43,449 --> 01:01:49,139 [zaza]: temperaments which is self cont if one lacks these virtues the one is affected 1388 01:01:48,717 --> 01:01:48,738 [massimo]: a 1389 01:01:49,239 --> 01:01:56,631 [zaza]: by the corresponding vices which are unwisdom cowardice injustice and in temperament so the lack 1390 01:01:56,711 --> 01:02:00,463 [zaza]: of ef control which is your favorite of these 1391 01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:00,941 [massimo]: yeah 1392 01:02:00,965 --> 01:02:02,029 [zaza]: of the vices and why 1393 01:02:03,410 --> 01:02:04,071 [massimo]: device is 1394 01:02:04,584 --> 01:02:04,705 [zaza]: yeah 1395 01:02:05,914 --> 01:02:07,136 [massimo]: intemperance for sure 1396 01:02:08,103 --> 01:02:08,364 [zaza]: okay 1397 01:02:08,318 --> 01:02:10,161 [massimo]: you know lack of self control 1398 01:02:10,362 --> 01:02:10,585 [zaza]: oh 1399 01:02:10,422 --> 01:02:12,044 [massimo]: is my favorite in the sense 1400 01:02:12,072 --> 01:02:12,393 [zaza]: oh 1401 01:02:12,164 --> 01:02:14,188 [massimo]: that it's one that i suffer from and i 1402 01:02:14,202 --> 01:02:14,483 [zaza]: oh 1403 01:02:14,248 --> 01:02:16,950 [massimo]: need to work yeah 1404 01:02:17,233 --> 01:02:20,959 [zaza]: all right cool i think i think i can completely agree with that one as 1405 01:02:21,019 --> 01:02:21,179 [zaza]: well 1406 01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:22,301 [massimo]: yah 1407 01:02:22,521 --> 01:02:24,605 [zaza]: thank you so much this was such a cool conversation 1408 01:02:24,599 --> 01:02:24,660 [massimo]: ah 1409 01:02:24,705 --> 01:02:28,111 [zaza]: i really really appreciate your taking the time where can people 1410 01:02:27,881 --> 01:02:28,046 [massimo]: yeah 1411 01:02:28,893 --> 01:02:29,475 [zaza]: buy your book 1412 01:02:31,021 --> 01:02:31,302 [massimo]: the book 1413 01:02:31,362 --> 01:02:31,442 [zaza]: the 1414 01:02:31,382 --> 01:02:31,442 [massimo]: is 1415 01:02:31,482 --> 01:02:31,683 [zaza]: quest 1416 01:02:31,543 --> 01:02:31,743 [massimo]: found 1417 01:02:31,743 --> 01:02:31,824 [zaza]: for 1418 01:02:31,823 --> 01:02:32,124 [massimo]: anywhere 1419 01:02:31,924 --> 01:02:32,326 [zaza]: character 1420 01:02:32,164 --> 01:02:32,585 [massimo]: you find 1421 01:02:32,546 --> 01:02:32,928 [zaza]: which has 1422 01:02:32,846 --> 01:02:32,926 [massimo]: ye 1423 01:02:32,988 --> 01:02:35,157 [zaza]: a different title in europe as you 1424 01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:35,270 [massimo]: it 1425 01:02:35,217 --> 01:02:35,358 [zaza]: told 1426 01:02:35,310 --> 01:02:35,551 [massimo]: does 1427 01:02:35,418 --> 01:02:35,458 [zaza]: me 1428 01:02:36,272 --> 01:02:38,235 [massimo]: trace in the uk it's called how to be 1429 01:02:38,262 --> 01:02:38,507 [zaza]: oh 1430 01:02:38,295 --> 01:02:40,338 [massimo]: good and even has a different 1431 01:02:40,195 --> 01:02:40,257 [zaza]: he 1432 01:02:40,399 --> 01:02:45,908 [massimo]: cover for some reason the book can be found anywhere books are solved both on 1433 01:02:45,948 --> 01:02:51,386 [massimo]: lone and offline and for everything else that i do people can go to masimopilug 1434 01:02:51,566 --> 01:02:51,968 [massimo]: dot org 1435 01:02:51,951 --> 01:02:54,822 [zaza]: m okay thanks again 1436 01:02:54,825 --> 01:02:54,945 [massimo]: back 1437 01:02:55,305 --> 01:02:55,607 [zaza]: thank you 1438 01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,346 [massimo]: it was great being here thanks for having 1439 01:02:58,212 --> 01:02:58,374 [zaza]: it was 1440 01:02:58,387 --> 01:02:58,447 [massimo]: me 1441 01:02:58,414 --> 01:02:59,322 [zaza]: an absolute pleasure thanks