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The Mixed History of Pirates Prospects · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, everybody.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: I am your co-host, Tim Hannon, and I am joined by another co-host, and his name is uh Steve Wirt.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was a nice lead in there, too.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I just I kind of lobbed that one right right to you.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like a pirate's pitcher giving up a home run.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like many of the prospects on this list.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: So uh at the time we're recording this, Pirates pitcher Paul Skeens is quickly becoming a phenom.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: He started the all-star game.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's very reminiscent, Steve, of like when Ben Rothesberger or Sidney Crosby first started their careers.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Where everybody's thinking, like, man, we we might really have a generational talent here and and this guy could lead our team to glory.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Then I laugh out loud.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to be optimistic with baseball because like you just I just see Paul Schienes in a Red Sox or Yankees or Dodgers uniform.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Don't they only have them like two or three years or something?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: They don't even have them that long.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: So, so, you know, but right now, lots of excitement, and we'll actually um talk about skins a little bit later, too.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: But but the kind of the basis for this episode uh is that every year baseball America names its top prospect for every major league team.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Skeens was the uh baseball America top pirates prospect this year, and it got me thinking about hmm, how many other guys have been designated as the top prospect and actually worked out well for the Pirates?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I went through the list of baseball America number one prospects going back about 30 years, and I thought it'd be interesting to talk about those guys and also to tell their stories because you know, I think we're we hear some of the names on the this list that I'm about to drop and think, man, what a waste that guy was.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, you know, these are human beings with real stories, so I wanted to delve into that a little bit too.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I decided, Steve, to categorize these players into groups rather than just like go uh chronologically through them.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but first, just an overview of the list.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I went back 30 years to 1994.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: There's 21 names on that list because some guys were number one prospects for multiple years.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: And uh just a little bit of a summary.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Only six of those 21 guys played for the team for more than five seasons.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: So not a ton of production out of this list, and we'll get into that.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: But to be fair, some of the guys on that five seasons or less list are in our first category of guys, which I'm gonna call too soon to evaluate.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: And those are basically all the number one prospects since 2018.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that list includes Mitch Keller, who is their number one prospect for three straight seasons, Cabrian Hayes, O'Neill Cruz, Andy Rodriguez, and Paul Skeens.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely, you know, some guys in that group who seem to be making their mark.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Hayes, I think, has been a pretty good player.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Keller and Cruz really seem to have a bright future, but I'm still gonna say just a little too early.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think Keller's right on, like, I saw him pitch a game this season already, and he was really good.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: He might be their best pitcher right now.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know Skeens gets all the hype, but like just because he's pitched for a little longer, he knows how to pitch into major leagues and not burn himself out in five innings.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: So right now, Mitch Keller's the better pitcher, but I'm sure Skeens will figure it out and catch up to him.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: So um definitely some guys on that list who you're excited about.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: But um, like I said, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try to evaluate guys that have just have a few years in the majors, right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: So let's go back a little bit more and um the next category got of players I'm gonna call hits.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: So these are bona fide hits, the guys that did what you would have expected a number one prospect to do.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Come in, be a team leader, be a star.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: And sadly, only two of the 21 players fit that category.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think I will get some pushback from the listeners and probably even my co-host on one of the two guys.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: So the first guy on that list is probably not too controversial.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's the 2007 and 2008 number one prospect, a guy named Andrew McCutcheon.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Kutch's resume speaks for itself, five-time All-Star, a gold glove winner, the National League MVP.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: The Pirates have only had two guys win MVP in the last 40 years, and he's one of them.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: The other guy's Barry Bonds.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Kutch was the star of those playoff teams of the mid-2010s.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, he worked out pretty well, Steve, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's still playing for the Pirates after a stint around the uh rest of the major leagues there.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, I know much you can say about Kutch.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: He's a pretty good player.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: How many home does he have 300 home runs now?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: I believe he just crossed that mark this this past season, yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he's a Hall of Famer, but he's definitely a good player in one of the bright spots of the last 10, 15 years.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: He's good person.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And he he seems to like Pittsburgh.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think he's gonna be one of those ones that retires here.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like he really likes living in Pittsburgh for whatever reason.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's nice.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's always nice when a player actually likes the city.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you have a good player and they're not like not they're still a class act, but like Jerome Bettis, I think of that.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, doesn't he live in like Atlanta or something?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not that yeah, he's like a bad guy or anything.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: He just you know he makes his home somewhere else.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I think you're right.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think that he'll he will be one of those guys in 20 years that they'll bring out to a game and everybody will stand up and care for and they'll retire.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's the new Franco, yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which will be cool.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: They'll put him in the team Hall of Fame or Ring of Honor, whatever that thing is that they have.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, Kutch definitely a bona fide success.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: The other guy who I put into this category is the 1996 number one prospect.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's catcher Jason Kendall.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, here's some numbers from Kendall.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: He played nine seasons for the Pirates.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: He batted 307, he caught over 1,200 games, and I think he was really kind of the heart and soul of that era.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I think if he would have been on a championship team or even a team that was like contending for championships, I really think we would think of him the same way we think of guys like James Ferrier or Aaron Smith.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, not Hall of Famers, not well-known uh league-wide superstars, but guys who we thought, boy, that like we could not have done things that we did without that guy.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think by your definition of the category, I mean, no, is he in the in the league of McCutcheon?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, not not even close, but he's not a bust.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's a good player.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's like a solid major leaguer.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's a role he's like a role player, you know, where McCutcheon you could build a team around and he was the star.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think Kendall's more of like a Neil Walker, like a like a role player.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not not I mean and maybe you know it was bad that he was now when you say number one baseball product, is that overall over the a whole major leagues or just in the pirates system?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: Just in the pirate system.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean maybe he maybe he was the best player the pirates had at that time, but that's you know what they say, damning by faint praise.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And he wasn't a bad player.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: He he wasn't like, oh my gosh, he was total garbage.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, he was a good player.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: He ended up having a bad attitude, but I think that was like he was a competitive guy, and the team just stunk and like was so horrible for so long they kind of ruined him.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I think when you work in that kind of environment, it just kind of gets to you.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I I think, you know, again, he was their number one prospect.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: He made three all-star teams.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: He he batted over 300 his time here.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: He was, you know, he was I I I think it worked out pretty well for him being a number one prospect, right?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and you said about role player, that's why I mentioned guys like James Ferrier and Aaron Smith, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: No one no one uh in some other NFL city is going to be like, oh, you know, Aaron Smith was one of the great players of the 2000s, but here in Pittsburgh, we you know, we know he was because he just did a lot of things that were kind of underrated, and and we'll always remember him because he was on those Super Bowl teams.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but Jason Kendall was on really bad teams, so I think that's why he probably doesn't get as much credit as he could.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of like probably some of the Penguins or Steelers that weren't on like like LeVon Kirkland, very good player, but not remembered like James Ferrier.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because he didn't win a Super Bowl.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: Good good comparison.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: The next category of guys I'm gonna call solid but not spectacular.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I have three guys on that list, and they were all teammates on that aforementioned 2010's playoff era team.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it's um Neil Walker, the 2006 top prospect, Pedro Avarez, the 2009 and 10 top prospect, and Gregory Polanco, the 2014 top prospect.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: So let's start with Walker.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's a Pittsburgh kid.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: He grows up going to Pirate Games at Three River Stadium.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a really cool story that he ends up not only playing for the Buccos, but being their starting second baseman on one of the few good teams that the Pirates have had in his lifetime.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh again, never a star, but certainly a solid contributor, I thought, on those winning teams, Steve.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he was good.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: He was a good player.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: There was a time there when the Penguins, the Penguins, when the Pirates started coming out of like being absolute garbage.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: What I remember I went to a game and it was literally like a little league lineup.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was Walker and McCutcheon and like a bunch of other guys that like weren't that good.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, well, let's just set it up like yo, in Little League, like normally you have like two, maybe three kids that can hit, so you just put them all at the top of the lineup and everybody else walk, get as many these guys as many at bats as humanly possible.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I think the third guy on the team was like Garrett Jones or somebody, or somebody like that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like who was an okay hitter, but would you know, so it was but I mean they they're very good players.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think Walker's I don't I guess is an appropriate rating for Walker.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I might rate him a little higher.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: and c I would replace I would swap him in Kendall, quite honestly.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's just because the team had more success, but I don't know.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Walker was better defensively than Kendall was as a catcher.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that that's fine.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: This is a subjective uh ranking.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you are you're certainly welcome to disagree, as are you, the listener.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: So uh next is uh Pedro Alvarez, who it always seemed was so close to joining that stud category.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: He's only he's one of only eight pirates ever to hit more than 30 home runs in a season, and he does it twice.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: He's named to an all-star team.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's a really feared presence there for a while anytime he comes to the plate.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but on the flip side, he strikes out a lot.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: He's kind of streaky, and my goodness, is he a terrible fielder?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the National League did not adopt a designated hitter until after Pedro had retired.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like he played Steve just like a few years too early because I think he would have been the perfect DH.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if they should have stuck him at first base, too.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, or what well, he was at third for a while, wasn't he?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: He was at third, yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: But then I think they put didn't they put him in first eventually?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you think he was terrible over there too, or put him out in like well, you see, you can't put him in left field in PNC Park because it's that's like a such a key position in that field, you know?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I really like this guy.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, he was so like like he would hit home runs and hit him with men on base.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, I just wish I just wish he wouldn't have struck out as much because he was just so close to having like a great career.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I really like this guy, and it just like towards the end, he just couldn't hit anymore at all.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: He just struck out all the time, and he didn't walk enough.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if he had he would have walked a little more, they would have put up with the strikeouts.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I always thought if Pedro Alvarez hit like 25 to 30 home runs, got like over a hundred RBIs, and batted like two forty.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'd live with it.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'd take that.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, bat 240, 220, whatever, strike out a lot.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if you're getting me 100 RBIs, that means you're hitting with men on base, and that's what they always needed, and that's what they can never afford, was a guy like Pedro Alvarez.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and if and his fielding was such a liability, too.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Do you remember the one playoff game where I can't remember if it was the year they played the Cubs or the year they played the Giants, but Hurdle literally started, I think it was Sean Rodd, uh at whatever position, third or first, that that Pedro was playing, until it was Pedro's turn to bat in the order.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then he swapped them.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like he literally was like, okay, as many innings as I can get with him not on the field is a good inning.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so it was just it was that kind of uh a thing where like I said, he you you're right.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: If he would have been a designated hitter who batted uh who drove in 100 runs every year, he he could have had, you know, he would have been the perfect, he would he would have been a stud.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, like I said, very close, but not quite.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally, Gregory Polanco.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know, they never got a ton of production out of Polanco, but I don't I don't think it's fair to call him a bust either.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: He does hit a decent amount of home runs and he he does drive in a decent amount of runs as well.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe it's you know, maybe it's the benefit of playing on those playoff teams.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but Polanco was, you know, was okay.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: I I I again not a star, not a bust.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's a little bit more towards the bust side, unfortunately.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: He was a guy that showed flashes.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember I was at a game, he threw a guy out at first from right field.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not that right field at PNC Parks that deep, but and that was impressive.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then he would hit home run sometimes, and you're like, oh man, this guy's gonna be really good.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then he would like uh didn't they lose a game in Chicago because he literally like tripped over his own.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, that's right.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: He fell down.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: He just like literally tripped over like his own two feet and the ball fell.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like, yeah, it's embarrassing.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's in Japan, I think.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he's he was in Japan.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know he went to Japan.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: He hurt his shoulder, and that really ended his career.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like he wasn't not that he was like, you know, doing terribly well here, but once he got hurt, that was pretty much the end of Gregory El Cafe.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the solid but not spectacular group.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Now for the guys who will just kindly say, uh, you know, it didn't work out so well.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I won't be so kind.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: They stink, they're bombs.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's start with 1994 number one prospect, Nidre Cummings.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: Cummings had come over in the John Smiley trade.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: He'd been a number one draft pick for Minnesota, and in 1992, the Twins are the defending World Series champions, so they want to win now, and they trade their top prospect Cummings to the Pirates to get Smiley, who is coming off of a 20-win season.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: So that that seems like a good trade for the Pirates for the future, right?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: You're trading a 20-game winner for this stud in Minnesota, who the Twins just are like, we know he's good, but we we need somebody to win to help us repeat as champions right now.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And Cummings was a five-toll guy, he could hit, he was a good fielder, he could run.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: One scout said that he could outrun Vince Coleman.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's a little bit of a blast from the past for, but for those fans that might remember the 80s, Vince Coleman was a really fast base dealer for the Cardinals.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: So if you really think, you know, at the time, maybe we have ourselves a future superstar here, but that never happens.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: Cummings is on the Pirates roster for parts of five seasons.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: He never plays in more than 60 games, he never hits above 255.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so it doesn't work out.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: But like I said at the beginning, I don't want to have these guys just be failed footnoses in Pirates history.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: I want to give them some humanity too.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Cummings today mentors kids in his native St.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Croix in the Virgin Islands.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: So that's cool.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, living in St.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Croix, uh, it's better living in Pittsburgh.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: At least the weather-wise.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would be nice.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Good for him, he uh, as Chuck Null would say he found his life's work.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: All right, well, moving on to 1995 number one prospect.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: And Steve, I'll be so impressed if you remember this guy because I do not at all.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's Trey Beaman.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I remember Willie Beaman from the movie uh Any Given Sunday.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they were related.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: So so unlike Cummings, Beaman isn't a first-round pick or someone who people had on their Raiders to become a star, but he very quickly advances through the minors, and in 1995, he hits 334 for the Calgary Cannons of the Triple A Pacific Coast League.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: That earns him baseball America's top pirate prospect designation and a call-up from the Buckos in 1996.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: But Beaman only appears in 24 games, only has 11 hits, and then he gets traded to the Padres, and then he's out of baseball altogether two years later, out of the majors two years later.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: To his credit, he does continue to play baseball in minor and independent leagues until 2006.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: And and once again is fairly successful in doing so.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, Steve, maybe just a guy who was like good at a certain level, but just never, you know, really ready, truly ready for the big leagues.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Who's that guy from Burr Bull Durham, that kind of guy, like minor league or Crash Davis?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I mean, for I wonder what is like there is a guy that does have the home run record for the minor leagues, but I don't think it's this guy.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Trey Beeman.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I wonder if he made a lot of money doing that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you don't make a lot of money in the minors, especially minor league baseball, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you make as much working at McDonald's or something.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, and some of those independent leagues too.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like he he played in the minors and like the independent leagues, like the Washington Wild things kind of independent leagues.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's that's not you're you're certainly not going to make a great living doing that, but if if you love doing it, I mean he if you think about it, he's young, right?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: He's probably loves baseball, and I don't know.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: I I I good for him, I guess.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if he's coaching, because that seems like the type of guy that would go into like managing or coaching or something.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like even if it's just like in a high school or like a call like a small college level.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I tried to find that, but not surprisingly, there's not a whole lot of Trey Beaman uh retrospectives out there.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So not even a social media post or wow.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: So but yeah, again, just a guy that was good at one level, not good at the other, I think.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the 1997 top prospect is a guy named Chris Benson.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: And he's not just the pirates top prospect, he's the number one overall pick in the 1996 draft.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: And he's a guy that comes with a lot of hype.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: And sure enough, when he makes it to the majors in 1999, he he actually has two really strong seasons.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're calling him a bust, Chris Benson?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's let's go through this because I I'm kind of shocked.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like Yeah, let's let's go through this.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: So in 1999, he finishes fourth in the rookie of the year voting, and then in his second season, he strikes out 184 batters.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: To this day, that's still in the top 20 for single-season strikeouts in Pirates history.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: Benson also starts the final ever game at Three River Stadium.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: So after two seasons, it looks like he has a promising career ahead, but then injuries hit.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: He needs Tommy John surgery and misses the entire 2001 season.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then he really doesn't ever do much after that for the Pirates.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he ends up in New York, which isn't really all that great for his career, but it's a boon for his wife Anna.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: She was a favorite Howard Stern guest, wasn't she?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she was.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she really bec be like she becomes famous for like what, being Anna Benson, I think.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, mainly for the same reason the Kardashians and everybody else just pose naked somewhere.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, and you figure that was the era of like Paris Elton and like You know, like you said, the Kardashians.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: That was really when when being famous for being famous was becoming a thing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So Well, Tim, maybe maybe, you know, you know the path to success for our podcast.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: You get to get after it there, buddy.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm sure that will do wonders for our for our listenership.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, and and like you said, Steve, went on, you know, she went on Howard Stern and she talks about you know how she and Chris want to have sex in every parking lot of every major league baseball stadium and why not the men's room?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Was the men's room too obvious?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Men's room.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: The handicapped stall, the men's room.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: They want more room, you know, more to spread out.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean that was could you imagine her with like social media now?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like she would have been who was that one Mahomes wife?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like who's like always on there?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like everybody I noticed she's toned it down.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I think somebody or I'm not on social media hardly at all, so maybe she's just still being wild.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just not noticing, but yeah, social media would have been uh Oh my gosh, she would have been ugh.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: That that would have been annoying.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh it doesn't end well for Chris and Anna.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you mean they they aren't still married to this day?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh color would be shocked.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't those two well, if those two kids can't make it, what hope do the rest of us have, huh?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's surprisingly, uh at one point um Anna's arrested after she allegedly broke into Chris's home wearing a bulletproof vest and trapped him in a basement with a knife, taser, hatchet, and handgun, according to police.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I never heard that story.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: So they get divorced in 2012, and today Chris is remarried to someone else.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: That does not have uh tasers and bulletproof vests and knives.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully not.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I but I want to go back to, you know, you you said you didn't think Chris was necessarily Chris Benson was necessarily a bust, so elaborate.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: He had two good seasons.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I I'll give you Willie Beaman there and you know Me-Dre Cummings for sure.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But uh no, I I I don't I he got two good seasons.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: He just got Tommy John surgery, hurt his arm, and that was the end of him, you know, pitching wise.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think you know that that at least class is um classifies him as a hit.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: He was good for two years, just not you know, maybe he didn't have long jevity, but definitely I mean flash in the pan, you call him flash in the pan, sure, but I don't think he's a complete bust because he he was really good those two years.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why the Mets took him.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that and the Mets are dumb, but I think that was back in the signing Bobby Bonilla for like 400 years.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm thinking I'm the type of person that if I went if I lived in New York, I would be a Mets fan because the Mets are the kind of organization that is incompetent enough to attract my me from, you know.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a Pitt fan, I'm a Pirates fan.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love incompetence.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely couldn't be a Yankee.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I would have to be a Mets fan.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: You could you could also root if you were there, you could also root for the Mets, the Jets.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let me root for the two most incompetent franchises in their respective leagues.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: I I so I'll give you that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a fair point.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: I I think that remember, he wasn't just the number one prospect, he was also the number one overall pick in the entire draft.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think so.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's a I I can see why you would say that then, yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but but but if you take that aside and just kind of consider him a number one prospect, just like the rest of these guys, he's definitely had more success than some of the other guys we're gonna talk about.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I would say too, like Beeman like was never I think Beaman just got hot and was at a time when maybe the minor leagues weren't that well stocked.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, because I mean you look, he goes from Beeman, like what, it goes three or four years till 99, till they finally have Chris Benson, you know.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's true.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's move on to the 1999 and 2000 number one prospect.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's Chad Hermanson.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: So he's another first-round pick of the Pirates who almost immediately starts generating a ton of buzz for his performance in the minors.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: He's designated as the center fielder of the future for the Bucs.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: And what I remember most about Chad Sir Chad Hermanson, Steve, was that the fans were so irate that he wasn't being called up.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: And this was around the time that KDK, which is our local CBS affiliate here in Pittsburgh, started doing these call-in shows that were hosted by Bob Pompiani.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and that was the top well, that was the topic du jour for a while.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, Bob, why aren't these Jagoffs playing Chad Ermanson?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think remember in the late 90s, you weren't super far removed from the glory years, and and the pirates had that little bit of taste of success with that freak show team that we did a whole episode about.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that there were still like it you we weren't as bogged down as fans at that point.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like there was still like some glimmer of hope.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, they they really saw Hermondson as like the next big star.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: So the Pirates finally placate their fan base by putting Hermondson on the big league club in late 1999, but unfortunately, he never becomes the guy everyone thought he would be.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: He bounces back and forth between the majors and minors for a few years, he has out of baseball by 2004.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: Today he still works in baseball as an instructor and a scout, and he and his wife have four kids.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and he says today that he would be lying if you know he said he's not still haunted by what went wrong with his prom with his you know once promising career.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And for what it's worse, Steve, Roy Smith, who was a scout with the Pirates back then, said he thinks what happened is that the Pirates rushed Hermanson to the majors too soon.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe the moral of the story is yeah, never listen to the fans.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it it it's the baseball draft is like such a like you think the football draft's a crapshoot.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: The baseball draft is an absolute crapshoot.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like not like like normally like the top five picks of any NFL draft, you'll at least have one that turns out to be a solid player.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Not always a Hall of Famer, but good players, but like man, sometimes like you look at the top five, top ten picks overall in these baseball drafts of all time.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I bet there's like more robust, absolute guys that did not even make it to the majors than guys that did.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it's I I don't know why it's like that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And like does baseball still have like 12 rounds or something?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have an insane amount of rounds to and then you throw in the international draft.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why why do international players have their own draft?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's like so stupid.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like they should all be lumped together and you just pick them.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you gotta negotiate with a team to transfer them, then I mean hockey doesn't have a separate draft.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, I I I I don't get why they structure it like that, but I you're right.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: It the baseball draft is a crapshoot, and and you're right, there's probably a lot of top picks that you would have never heard of.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then even guys like I think uh like uh going back a little further, Jeff King was a number one overall pick for the Pirates.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: He had a solid career, but like so you have guys like that too that were like, okay, they they they were decent, but they were never you know number one draft pick level superstars.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: In football terms, that Jeff King would have been like a third, fourth, second day pick.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah, exactly.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: But it doesn't seem like it happens like that, like say in the NFL or NDA.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like in the NFL, if you're the number one overall pick, you're not just kind of like, oh, he's pretty solid.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's like it feels like you're either you're either a star or you like flamed out and you're not getting another contract because you had all that pedigree.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: So all right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the next guy on our list is 2001 and 2002 number one prospect, J.R.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: House.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: And what a strange path this guy had.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's another player who's a stud in the minors, and that earns him that number one prospect tag, like we said, two years in a row.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but House has some bad luck too.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: He has some injuries.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: He also had to have Tommy John surgery, in addition to several other surgeries.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: And he has some prolonged illnesses too.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, he actually misses a month of playing time due to having mono.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: And when he does finally make it to the Pirates in 2003, he gets a hit in his first major league at bat at Wrigley Field.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: But he's another guy who's called up and sent down multiple times, and then the Pirates eventually release him in 2004.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: So what does he do at that point?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Does he try to catch on with another team's farm system?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Does he, you know, retire and get a job in coaching or something like that?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: No, Steve.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: J.R.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: House becomes a quarterback for West Virginia University.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's just the strangest career path ever.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: A guy who played for the Pirates in the major leagues becomes a college football quarterback after his time in the majors.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can call it the Chris Winky path.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Although Chris Winky, I don't think, ever actually played in the majors.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think he did either.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean how old was he?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Was he like 27, 28 years old when Yeah, something like that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: He's late 20s at that point.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean he yeah, he was on the major league roster.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: He got a hit at regularly fielder in his first at bat, and then two years later he's you know throwing the room.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's weird because remember college used to have that, well, that was they got rid of that, or that would be it was the Olympics, where you if you made like money, you couldn't play college football because you couldn't have your amateur status anymore or something like that.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I th I think you're thinking of the Olympics.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think college was just eligibility.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like that was the plot.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I know a lot of people wouldn't remember this movie, but it's one of my favorites.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: It was a movie called Necessary Roughness.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Came out in the like the 90s.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: Scott Bacchula was the star.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like they had the whole team, like they the dean that wanted to get rid of the team or something like that.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: But the the plot of that movie is Scott Bakula is like this, you know, uh guy that was a really good high school quarterback.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: He never went to college, he's like 35 years old at this point, and they they bring him in to be the college quarterback because he still has his four years of eligibility because he never played college or pro football.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what JR House was.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: He never played uh college football, he never played pro football.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what it is.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: As long as you haven't played pro football, then then you're still eligible.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, today with all the everything totally rapidly changing with the NCAA and the NIL and all that, who knows what the roles are now, but certainly back then that was the case.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, now it's they well the players are getting paid above the table instead of under the table.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess there's something for honesty there at least.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's the death of amateur sports.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there really isn't amateur sports anymore.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's too much money to be made.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, or if I like it or not.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't made up my mind on that.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and it's getting bad where like they're signing kids in like 10th grade.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's weird.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not crazy.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's like European like soccer's like that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like they'll have like kids come through like like Arsenal, have like a club that's like, you know, for eleven ten and eleven year olds, and it's really just like a minor league for their soccer team, which is weird.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, J.R.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: House was way removed from 10th grade.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: He was having his high school reunion when he signed at uh West Virginia.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: So 10 year.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hey, let me go back to it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: That that is just the oddest.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, did he do well at West?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I forget.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Did he I don't think he did that great at West Virginia, did he?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: He he was a backup.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that was the Pat White era.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: So he yeah, he was a backup.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: But he also saw Pat White play some good games.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and he got he got into a few games.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think Pat White was a minor league baseball player, too.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, was he?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, but yeah, I mean, so he was there during a good time, but he was not the starter.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: So all right, the 2003 and 2004 number one prospects, another guy on our list of didn't work out so well.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: John Van Benschoten, and this one's pretty infamous in Pirates Lore, because the story on uh Van Beskoten was a really high pick, wasn't he?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, yeah.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: And he was he was a a college power hitter.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: He actually leads all of Division I in home runs.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: So the Pirates in all their wisdom convert him into a pitcher.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I thought he was a pitcher.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: They don't even they don't even tell him why.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: They literally just take his bat one day in spring training and tell him you don't they take his bat and they tell him you don't do that anymore.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's a true story.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, they don't.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's a true story.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, give me that bat.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's what that's what he says.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: But they just took his bat.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's not you don't do that anymore.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: You're a pitcher.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: What would he's horrible as a pitcher, too.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: He goes 2-13 with a 9.20 ERA and 19 starts over three seasons.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: Among pitchers with at least 75 innings pitched, John Van Ben Scotten, wait for this, has the highest ERA of all time.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh I wonder what the thought process on that was.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: I I I read one thing where they um did he pitch in college?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I I I I I think I think that some I I read one scout said that he uh he thought his swing was too much like Michael Jordan.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Remember how Michael Jordan played baseball for a while?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard anybody compare their swing to Michael Jordan.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: I I I again, Steve, it's the Pirates.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's really the answer.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's the Pirates.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Scouting's not their strong point.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Neither is managing, neither is like, you know, general managing.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: Talent evaluation, talent development.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: They're pretty good.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: They're really good at bobblehead night, though.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was gonna say, or, you know, that's where you invest the money.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, food, food, food options at the stadium.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's really where they should stick to what they're good at.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh today, Van Bench Continent is the VP of a real estate investment firm in Tennessee.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, no word, Steve, on whether or not that was his original position.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe he actually wanted to be the accounting director, but they converted him to VP instead.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: You don't do that anymore.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: They had took like the spreadsheet off of that anymore.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but I really like the crunch numbers.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really good at it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: I went to school for it.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: No, you're in upper management now.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm terrible at it.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sit at this desk, yeah.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh boy, poor guy.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: What I I just there has somebody has to like go and actually do a story on that.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's like that's that's like an article for a paper or a new like boy.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: We should like if I could track down John Ben, whatever his name is, in Tennessee.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'll take a road trip to Tennessee to talk to this guy, or we could just do it over Zoom, but whatever.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: That would be a that would be a good episode of like the mystery of why would possess the Pirates to turn the the leading home run hitter in all of NCAA Division I baseball into a horrible pitcher who has the highest URA in the history of the Major League Baseball.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: I could see like, well, he was really good in the NCAA, and then we brought him up and like he really stunk for a couple years, and then we tried him a pitcher.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that the is that the path?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what happened?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or I yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: So the next guy on our list was an actual pitcher, and I think there's going to be some debate on whether or not he belongs here in this bus category too.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's 2005 number one prospect, Zach Duke.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, yeah.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I figured you would you would wince at that a little bit.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Duke's not a high draft pick, not a guy who had a lot of buzz, but he does start turning heads in the minors, and late in that same year, he's baseball America's top Pirates prospect.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: The Bucks bring him up to Pittsburgh, and boy, does he go on a tear.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: He makes 14 starts and posts a 1.81 ERA.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: At one point, he has a 22-inning scoreless stretch.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: He gets a bunch of votes for Rookie of the Year, and honestly, I think he probably would have won that award had he played more of the season.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that he was only there.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: He only made 14 starts, right?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: And he only came towards the end of the season.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's 2005.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: 2006, Zach Duke is named the opening day starter, and you know, is now the full face, full-fledged ace of the staff, but he badly regresses and never really again matches that 2005 start.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: He eventually finds some success as a bullpen guy, but that's long after his Pirates days.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: He actually pitches until 2019, so he's a pretty long career.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but again, just not a guy that really ever became a uh any kind of a long-term star for the Pirates.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're being unfair to him.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't he he like he's probably like a guy that like second time through the league, people start to catch on to, maybe.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's what happened to Zach Duke.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um I wouldn't call him a bust.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I mean, is why why are we calling him a bust?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because he was so highly rated by by the baseball people.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, because he yeah, he was a number one so he was a number one prospect who just didn't really I mean, what did he what is it that he did that was 22 scoreless innings, apparently.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was one I mean that was half of one's flash in the pan.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think he's another flash in the pan.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even more of a flash in a pan than Chris Benson.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like I said, that maybe you're right.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: I I think I think you make a good point, Steve, that that maybe Duke and Benson were a little bit more on the like flash in the pan, or maybe maybe even that solid, but not star.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um he he did he did have an all-star season a few years later in 2009, but he also lost 16 games that year, just looking at his death.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: He went somewhere else and pitched and had a decent, like I remember he was decent.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't like you know the ace of like I said, he played.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: He played all the way till 2019.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think he played his level like I think maybe that hot start like raised expectations above where they should have been.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas where he is, he's like Bailey Falter, the guy who's on the like the Pirates now just got hurt.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's like a fourth or fifth starter bullpen guy, and that's that's what he is.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: So so but for a number one prospect, I don't know.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: Feels like he, you know, again, if you're a number one prospect, the idea would be you're a little bit better than that.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: But then it's but but then you know, we kind of gave Gregory Polanco a pass, too.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe Zach Duke deserves that.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: So all right.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: The next the last guy in this category is the 2011 number one prospect, Jamison Tyone.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's the number two overall pick in the draft, so like many other guys on this list comes with a ton of hype.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: But man, Tyon has all kinds of health problems.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: He has two Tommy John surgeries and survives about with testicular cancer.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, first of all, I like all the credit in the world that he fought through all that and eventually makes his way to the team in 2016.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: And and remember, yeah, 2016, that was five years after he's a member line prospect.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: And he does have some success with the Buckos.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that 2018 season, the one where the Pirates uh have a winning record, he he's has a pretty good year that year, but he gets hurt again, and then the Pirates trade him to the Yankees.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Tajon's still pitching, I think, currently for the Cubs.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's not like he was bad.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: He just he had a lot of bad luck.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's another guy that's like towards the solid, like, you know, bullpen third or fourth starter guy.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like him and Zach Duke are kind of the same player, only I would say tie-in more injuries than I mean I it's like another one of those guys, it's like he's a role player.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you put him on a good team like that too, like he'll be okay.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even for the Yankees, he was okay when they yeah, they used him in his role.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want him to be the ace of your staff, you're probably gonna be gravely mistaken.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and just like Benson, I mean he was a number two overall pick in the draft.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that just adds to the like expectation level.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas Duke was not that.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Duke was kind of a guy that rose through the minors and surprised people, so maybe that's That's the difference between those two guys.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: The last three guys on the list kind of fall into what I'm going to call a what-if category.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: The first two guys are 2015 and 2016 top prospect, Tyler Glasnow, and 2017 top prospect Austin Meadows.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And Steve talked about these two guys in our memorable trades episode.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because Neil Huntington incorrectly thinks that the 2018 team is a contender.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: So he trades Glasnow and Meadows to Tampa Bay for veteran pitcher Chris Archer.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, uh to be fair, that 2018 team was competitive.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of only four Pirates teams since 1992 to have a winning record.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean that trade was a mistake.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean what a huge mistake.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: And man, could you imagine if we had those two guys right now?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're pretty good with Tampa Bay.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's it's just tough.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't I I didn't crit I think in my episode I didn't necessarily criticize the trade too harshly because I didn't think it was a terrible move at the time.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: It just didn't work out.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was like I compared it to the Jerome McGinla thing.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think Chris Archer was a good player, but he was at the tail end and he it just didn't work out here for whatever reason.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if he was playing left wing and he should have been a right wing, but yeah.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess the difference the difference is we didn't trade like you know Kate Gensel and Yeah, and it's a shame because both those guys end up being really good for Tampa.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'll and Charlie Morton, and there was all those other like former pirates like there for a couple years who were like, hey, remember when the pirates had talent in their system and were developing talent and yeah, yeah, that was unfortunate.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then last but not least on our list, and also in the what if category is the 2012 and 2013 top prospect, Garrett Cole.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, right away, the Pirates show a ton of faith in Cole.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: They start him over AJ Burnett for the deciding game five of the NLDS against St.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Louis in his rookie season.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: The Bucks lose that game, but Cole goes on to flash some brilliance.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: He makes an all-star team.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: He has some really strong stretches.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, the Pirates being the Pirates, they salary dump him, and now he's one of the best pitchers in baseball.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: At the time of this recording, he is the reigning American League Cy Young award winner.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: See, that's what's going to happen with Paul Skeens.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what's going to happen with Paul Skeens.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: And why wouldn't you think any different?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Unless Nutting sells the team between now and then to somebody that doesn't run the team like him.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I I think you're right.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe, maybe like I saw an editorial in the paper that they were saying they might not re-sign the lease in PC Park with the Pirates, like suggesting that the city doesn't do that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't I don't know that that's much leverage because you don't have any leverage here because like he'll just move the team to like he could even like do like I've suggested before when the city wants to play hardball.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't have to move the team like to like you know Nashville or something.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: You could just move the team to like he's from West Virginia, move it to like Wheeling or Weirton.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's 45 minutes away, and you could still call them the Pittsburgh Pirates.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't I don't know how that would work with the city, but yeah, I the post because uh what Steve's referring to just published a kind of a much talked-about editorial where yeah, where they suggested that the the city like ransom, you know, hold the stadium for ransom.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: It that they'll never first of all, the city's never gonna do that.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: And secondly, like you said, it doesn't it won't do anything.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the thing.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it'll work.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could maybe threaten it, like you know, maybe this is their way, like this mayor, the mayor's like back channel way of kind of like threatening him.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's what uh I mean just kind of maybe see if you can scare him a little.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're sick of you just like not doing anything with the team.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if when Skeens, if and when Skeens leaves, if it's like a Garrett Cole situation, I think that's that I don't know, people keep coming back, so I I keep thinking, well, that'll be the end of the Pirates fan base.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: It might be.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: It might be for a while at least, you know, for five to years or so.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: So but he'll just suffer through it like he always does.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I I don't know, it doesn't seem very fair.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's not, but that's unfortunately the ownership we have, so it's it's it's what we're stuck with.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny the difference between them and the penguins, because like I think that's more of the fair comparison.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like the penguins at least try.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: You feel like they try.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, they sign Chris Letang.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: You might not agree with it, oh, they signed him for too long, but they did sign him.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: They spend money.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it he just he's not gonna keep this this guy, and it it's that's a joke.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a freaking joke.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's and they don't do anything about it.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's so frustrating.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is I want to turn this into a like let's complain about Bob Munning, because we've done it so many times.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and it's it's not gonna do anything either.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh well, maybe he listens to our podcast.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure, yeah.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Bob start signing people.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he doesn't have the money.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to tell a person how to run their business, but I don't know.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't look at the books.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could have uh John Van Bedscote look at the books.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's uh he runs it, he runs a successful real estate company company in Tennessee.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe Van Bedskes will be the one that'll move them to Nashville.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: See, there you go.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's all coming from a circle.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: So just summarizing the list, 21 prospects, baseball America top prospects in the past 30 years.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: Five of them were saying too early to tell, two were stars, three were solid.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: I said eight were busts, Steve disagrees with three of those, and then three were good somewhere else after the pirates gave up on them too early.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, I what does that tell us about the future, especially for a guy like Paul Skeens?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think we just said it right.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's the economics of baseball and the ownership that we have is not going to um it it it it guys that the future top prospects are either going to be mismanaged, uh like some of the guys on that list, they're gonna have bad luck, like we talked about the Tommy John surgeries and stuff like that, or they're gonna be good and the pirates just aren't gonna keep them because of ownership.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um now the the the I think the the only question in there, Steve, is is on the mismanagement side, right?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because that is one thing that uh even if they keep a guy for a short term, you know, that's why they had those good teams in the mid-2010s, because they they actually managed the team well.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, it was short-lived, but you could at least have some windows.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: You could do like a Florida Marlins.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Marlins have won, what, two World Series since the Pirates have won one?
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: The Florida Marlins, okay.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're not talking like a team that's like well managed or spends a lot of money.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're as badly managed as the Pirates are, and they've managed to win two World Series.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really something.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: That really says something about the Pirates.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just uh just some quotes concerning the the how the Pirates manage players.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh here's one from Van Benchcoten.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: He says, quote, you're expected almost immediately after you're drafted to produce at a big league level.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: Other organizations don't do that.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if if we can compare this to other organizations.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure they all have their busts, but I wonder like a team like the Tampa Bay Rays or even the Cardinals, like, how do they like have they developed their talent better than the Pirates?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, and who's the best at it?
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: That would be an interesting.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that would be an interesting comparison.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, one more quote uh from Gary Cole.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: This was right after he was traded to Houston.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: He kind of took this veiled shot at the Pirates.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he said, quote, it's refreshing to come to an environment where the team is willing to continually put resources into the club and continue to move forward and try to provide the best possible product for its fans.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: So that kind of says it all, I think.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe we'll be talking about the Nashville Pirates in a couple years when the because I think our mayor is crazy enough to try it, to try and ransom the stadium.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, time will tell, but I think uh, like you said, enjoy the ride with Skeens because it's gonna be a short window, and hopefully maybe it'll turn out like the way the Browns turned out, like where the Pirates will move to Nashville and they'll give us an expansion team with a new owner.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just keep the pirates' name.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I could live with that.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I guess.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the you know, I hope it works out like the Cleveland Browns doesn't give me a ton of uh excitement.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: But at least in like that rotate, at least we would get rid of Bob Nutting.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: All right, folks.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I hope you enjoyed that little uh romp through recent pirates history there.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh thanks everybody so much for listening to our little show here.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, just encourage you to uh spread the word if you like the show.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: I really think that word of mouth is still our best way to get new people to listen.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Also check us out on social media.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: We're on Facebook and Twitter.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: Those links are in the show notes, and we'll catch you next time.