Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / The Fall of Veii: Part II
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad and Dr G 0:33 I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:58 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G Dr Rad 1:06 and I am Dr Rad, Dr G 1:08 and we are in the middle of what is a chaotic time for ancient Rome. It's the year 396, BCE, and oh, boy, are they not having a good time, as far as we can tell so far, Dr Rad 1:26 indeed, 396 is a very big year for Rome. However, the start of it was not great. Mm, Dr G 1:33 not great at all. It seems like there were some reversals in the field. There were some poorly planned ambushes and some confusing dealing about with Father Son combinations in the military tribunes with consular power. Dr Rad 1:48 Yeah. Just for those who didn't listen to our last episode A) I'd probably go and do that, because this is a bit of a narrative that we're building here. However, we're dealing with the end of the siege of Veii, an Etruscan city just to the north of Rome. Rome has had a somewhat complicated relationship with over the years, extending all the way back. And whilst the ancient sources make reference to the fact that, oh yeah, there was this truce from the second big conflict between Rome and of Veii, and it run out, and then there was a king, and he was a bit of a douche bag. And not only did the Romans not like the king of A, but the Etruscans didn't like the king of Veii, and that's why all of this happened. In spite of that, as Dr G rightly pointed out in our previous episode, it's probably really about resources, trade influence in the region, because these are two increasingly important places, I would say, in the previous century that we've been looking at. Now we're entering a whole new century. Dr G 2:54 It does seem like they is the Southern tale of Etruscan influence in the fifth century, BCE. And so the big power base that is through central to North Italy is the is a true area, the Etruscan people, and Rome is now this sort of growing player in the center of Italy. And they seem to want a slice of the Etruscan pie. They've decided maybe they has to go to make way for the growth of Rome itself into a grander place. Dr Rad 3:28 And we've got some allies of ve who have realized that a growing Rome is no good for them. That's true, Dr G 3:37 and Rome itself has been cultivating a whole bunch of their neighbors into being, variously allies or enemies, depending on how they've been treating them to the east and to the south. So there is a kind of a sense that there are a couple of blocks of power developing. The Etruscan block has been around for a long time, and it seems like maybe it might be on the wane in various ways, particularly when it comes to this southern edge where Rome is butting up against it. But there's also this sense that there are now growing disputes amongst Rome and her other neighbors, some of which are turning violent. The Volscian The Aequians, have been long on the radar. But there's also the Dr Rad 4:22 turning violence. Dr G 4:25 There's also the Hernicians and the Latins that seem to have come together with Rome. Now, before we get too much further into the action of this year, I want to hark back to something that came up a couple of episodes ago now, where you were talking about the Roman electoral process and the concept of the praerogativa. Yes, Dr Rad 4:49 this is how Calvus was apparently chosen for election to be one of the military tribunes with consular power in 396 even though he was not running for said election. Dr G 4:59 How. Could it be possible to get elected in when you're not even running? Well, no, the power of the praerogativa may be the answer to this question. Now we don't know too much about it. In this very early period, like many things to do with ancient Rome, we only become more sure about stuff when we hit about the mid to late third century BCE. So we're about 150 years away from having any good information to work with. Dr Rad 5:28 So probably be in our 60s for the time we get to that. Dr G 5:31 But those problems aside, this comes out of the concept of the comitia centuriata, which is this idea that some voting took place in a military style setup, where people were organized into centuries at some point in Rome's history, the idea of the electoral centuries deviates very wildly from the military setup. That's not our problem right now. We don't know what's going on, really, but we have this group, the comitia centuriata. They all turn up in their little groups. In their centuries, they head to the Campus Martius, and they get involved in a voting thing. Now, the prey rogativo Part of this is a invention that we don't know when it starts, but it is an innovation where they change who gets to be the first entry to vote. And it used to be the case that it always followed the same order. You would start with the equestrians, strangely enough, and then you'd get into the other groups. But with the concept of the prerogative of what you could do is that you could have a nominated group from one of the higher echelons of society be the first one to vote. It was kind of like a lucky draw, but only the best of the best got to be put into the draw to be selected in the first place, and then they would kind of set the tone for how the rest of the vote should go. Now it wasn't the case that all the other centuries, necessarily immediately would fall in line with what was voted for by that first group that was chosen as the prey rogativo. There seems to be some ideas that come to us in our very much later sources of the Republic like Cicero, that there was a bit of an omen component to all of this. So it was read as a bit of a sign of how the electoral result was going to go. So there was a persuasive factor in it that for the Romans would have been quite important, because they hold a lot of importance in things that relate to the gods and omens and signs. But that didn't necessarily seal the deal. But if you had a group that came out and decided that they wanted somebody in to be voted, like this situation with calvis, who hadn't been nominated, hadn't put themselves forward, hadn't canvas or any of that sort of thing, that could really turn the tide for something, because all of a sudden everybody like, yeah, we need that guy, yeah. Why wasn't he running? And that might have a cascading effect. I Dr Rad 8:05 think it definitely did. Everyone decided they wanted a taste of that vanilla bean plebeian. Dr G 8:13 And so this is how you might get somebody voted in who didn't stand for a position, absolutely, Dr Rad 8:19 unfortunately. Dr G, he hasn't got much longer in this position that we're talking about. We did list our magistrates in the previous episodes. By the way, everyone I know you're used to us listing out who all the magistrates are. So if you want to know the full details, please go and listen to the previous episode. Dr G 8:36 I was going to say, I'm not going to put myself through that again. Yeah, Dr Rad 8:40 definitely not. It's way too much Latin for anybody to have to repeat. So we were up to this point in my narrative of Livy, where a rumor had gotten out of hand after the Romans had suffered a military reversal in the field against these allies of they, the Faliscans and the Capenates, who, by the way, were not themselves Etruscans, but were allied with they, because they were geographically and presumably politically tied to they, and they understood that the Romans were going to be coming for them, so they had managed to secure this success. Everyone's panicking in the city. Women are praying. The Romans feel like it really is time for Veii tofall because they've done everything that the gods wanted them to do. They have drained that stupid album Lake, which had too much water. They have also made sure that the issue in the previous year where you had the magistrates elected improperly, that's been resolved. So they've repeated whatever rituals or held whatever festivals or sacrifices needed to be held again, so they're ready. They're like now is the time God's to show us that you've been paying attention. Have you been paying attention to all the things that we have done to please you? And it turns out, Dr G. That maybe they just have, however, before we get to that moment, it's time for a dictator to be elected. Because clearly, with one military Tribune with consular power, dead in the field, and the other one disgraced, because this defeat is so embarrassing, you need someone with real chutzpah. Dr G 10:20 Well, it does make sense, because everybody in Rome, as we noted in the previous episode, is in a bit of a panic. People have rushed to the temples being like guards, help us out. People have run to the walls of the city to look over and be like, can I see the enemy approaching? Like, is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's the Etruscins. So that level of panic is the kind of thing that sets the stage up really nicely for the ultimate panic move that Rome has, which is put a dictator in charge, and Dr Rad 10:56 are you ready to meet him? Dr G my name is Marcus Furius Camillus, father to other people with a similar name, related to people who are Spurius Furius and Dr G 11:08 I will have my vengeance Dr Rad 11:12 in this life all the next. I'm part of the Furii clan, but I'm always very calm. Actually, I Dr G 11:17 feel like we could both be a pretty good Russell Crowe. Maybe we should do that one time. Dr Rad 11:21 Well, Rusty, if you're listening, love to have you on the show, mate. Let's collaborate. So Marcus Furius Camillus is part of our favorite gens, the fury eye, however, lacking the praenomen that we prefer. Dr G 11:37 He is no Spurius. That's true, he's Dr Rad 11:39 no Spurius. But you know what, it seems like, the ancient Romans didn't care as much about the alliteration of their names as we did, because he is definitely, I'm gonna get a limb, the most famous of the Furii clan. I'm not gonna go into all the details about him right now, because that will obviously unfold as we go into this. But the whole fall of a that is about to happen very much tied up with this particular figure. Dr G 12:04 You've given away the game too soon. I'm Dr Rad 12:06 sorry, but I feel like I've said it at least 100 times by now, everyone should know. So there's a few important elements to the story of the fall of a which, as we've said, is so crucial to the way that the Romans view their own history. They say this is such a big thing that happens to them, and Camillus is a part of that. Now, we've talked in the previous episode about the fact that people like Livy are writing much later. They're building on a variety of sources. You know, family Chronicles, epic poetry, archeology, presumably like some remains and stuff that they see around and one of the things that they would probably have seen people like Livy. I mean, when I say they there's a statue of Camillus that was erected and still around, I would say, in his time period. And Camillus actually becomes a really important figure for the way that the Romans think about themselves and what makes a virtuous citizen. You know his story has huge resonance throughout the ages. He's someone who inspires later, people like the scipios, who we'll hear about during war with Carthage, Sulla and even your favorite Dr G Augustus, yes. So Dr G 13:18 Camillus ends up having this incredible reputation. That means that he has a type of fame that within Roman society is pretty rare. It's ongoing. People refer back to him. He gains a whole bunch of prestigious kind of epithets that are associated with him. This is the start of his journey in some respects that we're going to be looking at in this particular episode. And I think it's going to be the culmination of his career as a whole, which I reckon we'll we'll do a wrap up episode where we we look at all of that in detail, because this is going to be part of his story, but not the whole of it. And this is the start of the sorts of things that will make his reputation. But it's not like he gets off to like a fantastic start now, obviously it is an amazing thing to be made dictator. That doesn't happen to most Roman politicians. There is only a select group of these people that end up in this role, and the idea of the dictator is really a product of need. So Rome has found itself in a desperate situation. They think that everything is looking terrible, and they turn to a single individual and say, can you take charge of everything? Carte blanche while you're in power, look after this problem and solve it for us. And they choose Camillus in this moment. And it would be amazing if we knew what it was about Camillus that made him the preferred choice. And maybe Livy talks about this, but certainly none of my sources reveal that to me. Dr Rad 14:57 I was going to say I'm so glad you asked. Dr G 15:01 I've set you up so well, gonna give you Dr Rad 15:03 a bit of foreshadowing here about Camillus, there is a bit of doubt about whether he actually existed Dr G 15:10 or, Oh no, he's Dr Rad 15:13 one of those people. Look, I think a lot of people agree that he is a historical figure. However, like with a lot of things from this time period, including the fall of they he's been so mythologized, and there have been so many layers added to him, including, again, by Augustus, the fact that Augustus is like, hey, who am I going to put in my gallery of heroes when I'm working on the forum of Augustus, I know. I'll put Camillus in there. It's hard to untangle all of those different layers, because we don't see a clear emergence where the Romans are gradually adding things. So it's really hard to know exactly who Camillus was, where he came from, but certainly the fall of they has become an important part of his great story as a citizen of Rome. I think I would say that in the scholarship, most people think that this particular part of his story, this fall of a part of his biography, is probably one of the earlier events that are attached to Camillus and his legend. So whether that makes you feel more secure or not, dear listeners, let us know. Dr G 16:30 Can I tell you some of the things related to this incident that come up in the source material that I have so you can verify against what Livy might be telling us. So it seems that he becomes dictator. And I don't have heaps of details about how that comes about, but I suspect it's the usual way. And then he's basically in charge of the siege of they and that that seems to be the main thing that he has to take care of. They're like, solve that problem for us, buddy. Yeah, it's only been 10 years that have been great to have a solution. And he's like, Sure, I'm your man. And then I get a various sort of combination of things where he either deviates from that plan slightly and does some things with the Faliscans, or he remarkably Dr Rad 17:18 Dirty. Dr G 17:20 He does something for Faliscan. I don't know if you're into that sort of thing, but, uh, yeah, something's going on there. And I can talk about a bit more of that detail later if it indeed fits in this year. And that's the other thing that I'm struggling with with my source material, is I'm not sure what sits in what year for some of this stuff. But the other story that gets told about the siege of Veii is that he wraps it up quite quickly with a series of tunnels. Dr Rad 17:44 How dare you ruin the end of my story. I'm sorry, Livy, you're totally on path. I don't have much information either about why Camillus is the one who's chosen. However, lest we forget, Dr G he was one of the elected magistrates for this year, and he is from the Furii who have been very much a part of our narratives for the past 100 years. So one can only assume it's because he is part of a fairly prominent, influential, powerful Roman Gens. I will say one thing I have noticed whilst reading about Camillus, and made me reflect, because, as I say, he is held up as this Roman general par excellence. He is the fatalis Dux, the fateful leader, the one who comes when Rome needs it the most and turns things around in a really spectacular fashion. It made me realize that, like with movies, often the good guys are more boring than the villains. I mean, look with Roman history, as we talked about, because certain families are thought to have certain character traits. Sometimes it just feels like you're meeting the same person again and again, because they seem to be very similar to each other if they're from the same family, like with the happiest Claudius of the world that we have met, but there's still something kind of fantastic about how evil those sorts of people are in our minds, by our standards, whereas someone like Camillus, I don't get a strong sense of his character. And maybe this is because he's been a little bit mythologized. Hmm, maybe it's also because the Roman virtues for someone to be considered an exemplar, because Camillus definitely becomes an exemplar. So that's where the Romans tell a story about a person and hold it up so that other Romans can learn from their example about how to behave politically, how to behave as a citizen, how to behave militarily, because that's part of their whole idea of citizenship. And being a good Roman, Camillus is definitely one of those. And it's been a little while since I feel like we've had one of these figures who is an exemplar for others to follow well, Dr G 19:48 but it's not like he is a clean, straight laced exemplar that you can just hold up and be like, Look at this heroic figure who does everything right, because he seems to get. Whole bunch of things wrong. Dr Rad 20:01 Well, does he or did the Romans get it wrong and then they felt really bad about it? No, wait Dr G 20:05 for it. I mean, I I assume that Livy would have this story about Camillus. But part of the problem for Camillus with the siege of they and however he takes it and the complexities of this tunnel system are outside of my source material, but I'm excited that they're there, because I always think tunnels are highly unlikely in the ancient world as a system. But you know, how long does it take you to dig a tunnel? I don't know. And how many tunnels did you have? I don't know. Have they been working on them for nine years? And it's just that Camillus finished the tunnels. I don't know that could be believable, but there is this story that is also told in companion with this story about how great he is, and how he is this sort of exemplary leader, where he seems to have a bit of a mixed relationship with the gods. Dr Rad 21:02 Should we save that for later in his story? I Dr G 21:06 don't know. I mean, Dr Rad 21:09 look, I tell you what I'm gonna say, let's save it, because I think I know what you're going, where you're gonna go, and that's like the end of the narrative that Livy gives me. Oh, you reckon okay. I reckon so. I reckon so. Look, I do think I know what you mean, and I'll just say at this point in time that, yeah, you're right. But Roman examples, I don't think have to be perfect. It's more that, I suppose it's more that they are thought to teach something important in at least the majority of their life. And look, I think his failings also say something that's important too. It's not that they can't make mistakes. To me, they tend to be a little bit robotic, almost in the way that they behave. But anyway, we will see. So we have our dictator Camillus, who we will go into later. We also obviously need a master of the horse, every dictator's assistant, Dr G 21:58 Yeah, gotta have somebody to do the paperwork. I mean, exactly. Dr Rad 22:02 Can't expect the dictator to do it. He's got way too much to do. We've got Publius Cornelius Scipio. Now this is a name that might ring some bells to people. So the scipiones come from the malukinensis, that horrible name that we hate to say. And he is actually listed in the Fasti as Publius Cornelius Maluginenses. Now, what does that say to you? Dr G, Dr G 22:28 that says to me that the scipios are trying to borrow his story from later on. Yeah, they decided they wanted to hop on that bandwagon. There might be two branches of that family. And yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure. But I mean, the Cornelii are a very exceptional, well known foundational partition family as well. So yeah, the layers of the way that these families will then branch out is going to become important to understanding how Roman political structures operate, because it the family thing is huge. So, yeah, Dr Rad 23:01 look, it's not impossible that there is somebody from this family at this point in time which will become a very big deal. But we don't have someone that we feel super confident about from this family until the 350 Dr G 23:17 I was gonna say, I feel like, yeah, it's too early for scipiones. This Dr Rad 23:21 is the general feeling, but nonetheless, here they are again, potentially showing us that the analysts or Livy are using sources from this family, and that's how they end up in earlier periods than they perhaps should be. How convenient? Yes, with the dictator, chosen master of the horse, chosen Rome, apparently, like they've had a makeover. They're feeling wildly optimistic. All of a sudden, their morale is through the roof. I mean, Rome is just literally bursting with possibility at this moment in time. Dr, G, it's Dr G 23:56 a quick turnaround. It's the like the highs and the lows. Rome is having a very emotional roller coaster ride right now. They've they've had that huge dip where they're like, the ambush and the tragedy, and now they're like, and now we've got the best guy in as dictator, and it's going to be great. I Dr Rad 24:12 love the way that the Romans work. Now the first thing that Camillus does as dictator is he decides he needs to dish out punishment for anyone who ran away from the encampment at they during all that horrible panic. Oh, no, yeah. He's like, you found that scary? You found the Falsicans and the Capenates coming at you scary. I'll show you scary, my friends. So he deals with that situation because he can't have cowards, right? Certainly not involved in a siege. Can't have that, Okay, fair enough. He also needs to set a levy. Gonna need some troops, obviously. So he sets a levy. He then rushes out to they, because He wants to spread that optimism to the encampment in front of they. Then he's back to Rome. Him for the levy, which he had set before he left. He's just zipping all over the place. And because Camillus is so amazing, there are no problems at all with this Levy. In fact, everyone is super keen to get in line and serve Camillus. I was Dr G 25:15 gonna say this is why they made him dictator, because obviously he's charismatic, and it's like, it's hard to resist. And you're like, sign me up if I have to die, I want to die under Camillus, exactly Dr Rad 25:27 what the Romans are feeling at that point in time. In fact, not just the Romans. Dr G, the Latins and the Hernicians, who you alluded to earlier, also said, Rome, we're totally behind you in this my friend, Sign me up. What a man and Camillus gives official thanks to their allies in the Senate. He's like, thanks very much, guys. Presumably this means that there were envoys who had been sent from the Latins and hanisians who made some sort of official presentation. Got my slideshow here. Sorry, the PowerPoints just on the on the fritz. Just wait one second. So Dr G 26:02 this is the location of Veii. This is Rome. And as you can see, we just down here. And so what we're going to do is we're going to send some of our men up to Rome, and then they're going to join with Rome, and then they're all going to move north, you see, and that's how we're going to do it. Dr Rad 26:16 Bob's your uncle, mate, sweet as. Camillus' also makes some large promises. Dr G he says that there will be great games, not just games, great games celebrated if they is taken, and this is apparently in pursuance of a senatorial decree, which seems anachronistic, because we don't think the Senate issued senatorial decrees at this moment in time. But let's ignore that and pursue our narrative. He also says that he will restore and rededicate the Temple of Mater Matuta, which had been originally set up by my favorite King Servius Tullius. Yes, Dr G 26:58 yes. Now this does come up in some of my source material as well. So this also is Plutarch, who also insists that the master of the horse is Cornelius Scipio, which I did nothing with in my notes originally, because I was like, yeah, that's not a thing. But now that you've mentioned it, I can, I can confirm that that is an idea that continues. But yes, this idea that there will be a dedication to the Goddess mata matuta and the great games is something that Plutarch definitely goes into. And Mater Matuta herself is a pretty ancient kind of deity. So she's known in Italy. She's known in Rome. And the matuta name has a couple of different meanings, the idea of in the right moment. So she's the mother of the right moment. This is also translated as the good mother. And so there's this sense in which she is also has bears resemblance to later Christian figures as well. So she's often depicted holding a child with a solar disc around her head. And might be giving some people some imagery. How Dr Rad 28:11 suspicious, Dr G 28:13 and we know that she has an archeological record that goes back to at least the seventh century BC. So there's some votive offerings that are found in Latium that are connected to her. Hers is one of the oldest temples that we know about archeologically in Rome as well. So her temple is right near the forum boarium, which, if you've been to Rome, or you plan to go, is right across the road from where you've got the guy that you can put your hand in the Mouth of Truth, the Mouth of Truth just across the road. And there's a very impressive circular temple there that you can see that's to Hercules Victor, which is a much later temple. But below that there are some foundations for a temple to mata matuda, so she's considered quite ancient, even within the archeological record of Rome. So for Camillus to heart, back to her, there is some good evidence to suggest that that's not a crazy thing to do, that she is a goddess that the Romans are already very interested in and have been interested in for a long time. And maybe this is a moment of potential renewal for her cult, which is kind of exciting. Dr Rad 29:25 Of course, it's not crazy. It's Camillus that we're talking about here. He's going to do everything to inspire the Romans and make sure that they get this amazing victory, which is right there, Dr G, right Dr G 29:40 so close, so close, we can almost see it. We Dr Rad 29:43 can almost see it. So Camillus and his army, freshly gathered, march out. They fight those darn Faliscans and Capenates in the country of the Nepesine, which I believe refers to the town of Nepi which. If you were going to Italy nowadays, would be known as nepi and as you might expect, is to the north of Rome. Everything's to the north of Rome at moment. Dr G 30:10 I mean that. I mean that, obviously this is their big deal at the moment, everything to the north. Dr Rad 30:16 So as you would expect, Camillus is very prepared. He has thought things through, unlike titanius and gaucius from the previous year. And so everything goes to plan. The Romans completely trounce the enemy. They take their camp. They take loads of booty. And I can't emphasize enough loads of booty. How Dr G 30:40 big is the booty? A lot. Dr Rad 30:42 Yes, exactly. It's very, very impressive. Most of it is given to the quaestor, though not directly to the soldiers. That's going to become an important detail later. I think remember Dr G 30:55 this detail, the quaestor has all the booty Dr Rad 30:59 they're off to find ve itself, and this is where they start to take a different approach, because Camillus is a genius. So previously, because it was a siege, you've got men on both sides, and they're constantly engaging in minor skirmishes. 10 years of minor skirmishes. Oh god, yeah, I'm gonna throw this at you, and you're gonna throw a stick at me, and I might throw something sharp and pointy, and Dr G 31:29 your mother smells of elderberries. Dr Rad 31:31 Yeah. I don't know what a skirmish looks like in a siege, but you know, particularly between the town walls, where the Romans have set up this. Okay, that's obviously where the action has been concentrated for the past 10 years, but we can all say it's not really going anywhere fast. So Camillus says to the people who are assembled there, no one is to fight unless I personally give you a specific order that you are allowed to fight. So no fighting whatsoever. I don't care what names they call you. I don't care if they're giving you the stink eye. I don't care if they spit in your general direction. Not happening. Dr G 32:08 All right, so if the population of they were to decide to make an attack under these circumstances, are the Romans just to lie down and let it happen to them? Dr Rad 32:20 Look, these are questions I don't have time for. Look, I presume if they were attacked, obviously, that would be a different story. But he means no more skirmishing. Just lay low. You don't need to fight. Just walk away. Just walk away. Dr G 32:35 Don't think you're in charge of this siege. And start your own skirmishes because you're feeling in a bad Dr Rad 32:40 mood. Instead, it's time to dig, send down 30 feet of rope. Now this is what is where we come back to what you were talking about, the tunnels. The plan is they're going to dig a mine that will take them right to the Citadel of they and for those of you who don't watch enough fantasy stuff, or aren't into ancient warfare, when we're talking about the Citadel, we're talking about the heart of they also Dr G 33:08 don't think too hard about this from a geographic perspective, because the city of they, as we know, is sitting on a plateau of tufa. So it's going to take some time to hack away at the sheer rock that this city is sitting on to create a whole series of tunnels. Dr Rad 33:26 Camillus is way ahead of you. Dr G, he has a plan. Okay? He knows that in order to get through this as quickly as possible, he needs someone to be digging at all times. So he splits the men into six groups, and each group has to work for six hours at a time, and then they rotate. So that way the digging is happening day and night, night and day. Dr G 33:52 This is a Okay. So we've got a workforce that is operating 24/7, for however long it takes to cut through all of that rock. Yep, cool. Dr Rad 34:05 And now this is an interesting point, because we've been talking a lot about tunnels when it comes to things connected with Veii. So obviously we've talked about the tunnel that was built in order to drain the excess water from the Alban Lake, which apparently needed to happen in order for the Romans to secure victory against Veii, and that would be the moment when they became vulnerable, the vulnerable Veieans, that's right. Yep. We also, lest we forget, Dr G had a tunnel mentioned in a previous conflict with Veii when Fidenae was the bone of contention back in the 430s or the 420s who knew when that was taking place? But definitely earlier than this. I Dr G 34:49 think the thing to keep in mind here is that once Livy has introduced the idea of tunnels into his narrative, it's just going to keep going. So. Once we have this concept of tunnels being used for military purposes, everybody gets excited, and now you can use them all the time. It seems challenging. Like Veii is a city that is sitting in a reasonably hilly area. It is a volcanic area. It gets its water not just from the nearby river, but also from the spring systems, which are endemic in this region of Italy because of the volcanic activity. So there is a lot of natural sort of water courses that are happening underground. You could follow some of them potentially and open them up more. That might be a way to build some tunnels, but it does seem like a tricky business. I'm not saying that the Romans aren't capable of it, but I do have some questions, and I'm not sure that we've seen archeologically that there's any evidence for tunnels underneath they although I'm happy to stand corrected, please atroccologists, get in touch with us and help us out with this thorny question of the siege of Veiiand the tunnels that are apparently associated Dr Rad 36:04 with it. Well, I can't class myself as an Etruscanologist. However, it is possible, as you've said, that this seems to be part of the narrative in multiple ways. And we know that there is actually some sort of tunnel with the Alban Lake situation. So there is some proof there. It's possible that, obviously this became an older part of the story, that people like the analysts and then Livy had to weave the narrative around it and incorporate it somehow. It is an entirely out of the question, because we know that the Greeks did use siege mines. So for example, there is one used at the siege of platea by the plateans. So that does happen. We do also know that there are these things, these cuniculi, which are drainage tunnels, which are found throughout the landscape in this area. It is possible that rather than, say, digging it, which, as you say, might be tough, maybe the Romans found a drainage tunnel that had been blocked up or closed off, and they just emptied it, and that's what they were doing. However you are quite right. I believe that at the moment, we haven't found one where you might expect to find one. So there definitely are some questions about this, but I don't want to discredit Camillus, because the Romans certainly think he is the ants pants. Dr G 37:32 Yes, I was going to Dr Rad 37:34 say the bee's knees. Yeah, as you say, it's all very quickly turned around. You know, Camillus can tell that victory is near because of his genius digging program. They're digging for victory. Dr G 37:48 They're digging, yeah, Dr Rad 37:51 and he knows that he is getting very close to being able to seize they. And he also understands just what this will mean for Rome. This is such a big deal. They is really their only big competitor in this region, as we've talked about, in spite of the political reasons that we're given for this conflict, there's an awful lot of other stuff at stake here too. So Camillus knows that this is going to be really, really big. In fact, he's expecting that there will be more booty in the capture of a wealthy Etruscan city like they then. The Romans have perhaps ever captured before, if you put everything that they've done all together, Dr G 38:25 especially considering they're often like just exchanging booty and finding refining their sandals that they lost last time, this would be a chance to actually acquire new stuff. Dr Rad 38:35 I'm telling you, you know, laundry markers could have changed everything for them. Now, thinking ahead, because Camillus is a planner, as we know. He's no titanius organucius. He's worried about, what is he gonna do with all this booty? What are you gonna do with all that junk, all that junk inside your trunk? Dr G 38:54 That's a good question. What is he gonna do? Well, Dr Rad 38:57 he understands that the soldiers might turn against him if he's not seen as being generous enough to them with this booty. So there's obviously an expectation that, given that they have put aside their weekend plans to help him conquer they there is an expectation that they will be rewarded for their efforts. However, the Senate might be angry if he's too generous to the average soldier. Now I should say Livy actually says the fathers, but as we know, he uses these terms very interchangeably, so I'm presuming he means the Senate, because he immediately writes to the Senate and says, Look, victory is getting near. It's going to be amazing. What should I do with all the stuff that I'm about to capture so brilliantly? The Senate had different opinions, and this is where we get into my favorite part of this narrative. We go back to our friend old puble. Licinius calvis, Oh, Mr. Moderate himself, all right, Mr. Moderate himself, who was apparently too old to be magistrate, and yet his son says to him, Dad, I want you to take the floor. Hmm, why would this happen? You ask good question. Dr, G, there is absolutely no reason why this would happen. It would be extremely odd for someone who is not a magistrate and a plebeian to boot, randomly be asked to be the first to speak on such an important matter over all the patrician senators who apparently are staring daggers at him right now. Why is he considered so senior in the Roman state right now that after being the first plebeian military Tribune with consular power, after coming out of nowhere in 400 all of a sudden, four years later, he gets elected without running for office when he doesn't want to do it. He's like, Oh, take my son. And everyone's like, Yeah, cool. And then in a moment of great, important public debate, and his son's like, Dad, I want to hear from you. Everyone's totally fine with this look. I Dr G 41:12 think I am incredulous, and I hear the incredulity in your voice as well. So I think we're on a similar sort of emotional wavelength here. But I also wonder about the nature of what characterizes the Senate, because this is true. Age is definitely a huge factor. Of considerable years Dr Rad 41:36 old and his memory's going asides going exactly Dr G 41:38 this is guy's bit deaf, having trouble seeing doesn't seem like he's up to the gig. Is old enough that he feels like he should nominate his son to do most of the work. But when push comes to shove, his son is like, actually, I think my dad needs to take the floor and have something to say. There is a very conservative tradition amongst the senators about who gets to speak and when. Sure, and we know a lot of that from later periods of history, not so much this period. But if this group of fathers, which for so long we just assumed was all patrician, but as it has turned out now, seems to have always had at least one Levy. Dr Rad 42:23 It's this guy and his family the whole time, the Dr G 42:28 whole time, maybe they've been there for a while. So he may actually be in a position of quite seniority within the context of the Senate itself, and often asking the oldest to speak first is less about monetary capacity or other ways that you might measure somebody's worth within the context of Roman society, and is actually that idea of the fathers and the wisdom that comes from your elders. And potentially, this is what's going on for calvis In this moment, where they're like, he is really old. Maybe he's got something to say. Dr Rad 43:08 Look, I hear what you're saying. I totally get it. You're right. He is very elderly. But the idea that there aren't equally old patricians who I mean, think about all the times we read out the list of magistrates and we're like, oh yeah, this guy's had about eight. You know, I just find it hard to believe that the one military tribuneship With consular power that he's held somehow makes him outrank everyone else. Just considering that we had not heard of this guy up until a few episodes ago. It just seems so funny. And again, it kind of indicates that Livy must be leaning on Licinius Macer or Macer, depending on your preference, as a source who wrote about his family's achievements when he was writing his work. So I just kind of feel like that maybe has something to do with it. On top of which, as we said last time, most of our sources, apart from Livy, agree that the dad is the one who's the magistrate. So this would indicate that if he's the one who's speaking first, he's speaking, because he's an old magistrate in power. That would make sense this whole idea that his son held the office in his place. And then thought, You know what, this is my moment to shine, but Dad, you take the floor. Dr G 44:27 Look. I could still believe that. To be honest, the idea is not so much that Calvus is not the preferred candidate in flavor of his son. He's delegated some of the job to his son. He may still very well be the magistrate, and even if he's not, and technically, his son is fulfilling the role. Everybody knows that it was Calvus The elder that people wanted in the position, so they're still going to defer to him, because he's got all of the cache. That has been built up through everything else. We're missing the incidents that's Yeah, Dr Rad 45:07 totally. Anyway. Look, there are some questions. There are some questions clearly, but we will proceed. Dr G 45:12 And like many things, we do not have the answers. So Dr Rad 45:17 Licinius Calvus Senior, he stands up and he says there should be a public proclamation issued where anyone who wants some of the spoils that are going to come from, they need to get up and go to the camp at Vay right now. That's the way you stake your claim. You get up and you go, wow. Strange system. But okay, I guess it dips. It's basically ancient Roman. Dibs. Dr G 45:42 We are not carrying it back for you. You won't have to go yourself Dr Rad 45:47 too much stuff. It's a wealthy city like come on, guys, unreasonable. Now our old friend Appius Claudius is now going to take the floor in opposition to Calvus. For those of you who haven't listened to the past million episodes that we've released, appias Claudius, the Appii Claudii, they're known for being Uber patricians, very conservative. So no shock that this particular Appius Claudius thinks that this is an outrageous suggestion, far too generous, not at all fair. In fact, indicates that this dude is too old. He's gone crazy, lost his marbles. No. Thank you. Dr G 46:25 This is a bullock suggestion. Yeah. Dr Rad 46:27 Now, you know, I hate to side with someone from this family with my natural leftist leanings. However, once again, there is a little bit of sense to what he says, If we believe this whole narrative, which is that Rome has been going through a lot of warfare lately. In case no one's noticed there's a siege going on, that's kind of why we're having this conversation. The Treasury is drained because of all this conflict. They should instead use whatever booty comes from the capture of a to pay the soldiers once again. Dr G, they the siege of a it all comes back to this question of military pay. Okay, Dr G 47:09 well, that would make more sense in many respects, absolutely, let's pay the people who have done the job. Dr Rad 47:15 On top of which he actually points out that this would be of benefit to the plebs, because, whilst they're not getting the booty in their pocket immediately, it would mean that less war tax is required to fund military pay, which apparently is something else that exists at the moment, and we've had discussions about the reality of that, but I'm not going to get into it again. So everyone would benefit in one way or another, if they just were sensible and put the booty in the bank. Dr G 47:45 All right. Well, okay, so that means somebody's definitely going to have to carry it from they to Rome, because how did it? Can't just stay in Veii. That's not how gaining wealth works. It's all based on the physical stuff you've you've got to move it. Dr Rad 48:00 Look, I hear your practical sense coming through. Miss Virgo, but I don't think that this is what Appius Claudius is most worried about. His big concern is that lazy city slicker types are going to swoop in and take the rewards won by others and the real fighters, the real heroes, Dr G the men who've been on the front lines would miss out. So this is another very important point that he makes, that noble fighters from Rome always are the least greedy, and therefore they're going to miss out if the Romans don't take some sensible steps here. Wow. Dr G 48:41 This is just a moment where Rome is like, we're about to be more successful than we've ever been, and we do not know how to handle that. Dr Rad 48:50 Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's their lottery day, and they're like, oh my god, we're gonna be millionaires. What do we do? A new house. We put in a pool. Dr G 48:57 I need a financial planner. They haven't even won yet. They're getting well ahead of themselves. It's Dr Rad 49:04 a shoe in Dr G. I mean, this is the funny thing, right? After a 10 year siege, I love the fact that everyone keeps saying, Oh, they're trying to build it up to be like the Trojan War. Like this is nothing like the Trojan War in the sense that it seems like a foregone conclusion at this point in time. We all know it's really hard to tell the story of the siege of a without giving away the ending, because we all know where it's going, because they knew before it happened that it was going to happen. But anyway, now Livy is doing his thing here, where he has very contrasting speakers. You know, Calvus, obviously, is our vanilla bean plebeian, very moderate. Appius Claudius, once again, going in hard like his family always does, being able to play the plebeians like a fiddle and the patricians, to be fair, everybody loves a good speech from one of the Appian Claudius. However, Licinius comes back. Licunius Calvus comes back with another attack. He's. Says, Look, this money is going to cause huge problems. Let's be honest, the plebeians are going to arc up if we don't look after them, and it's going to lead to them making outrageous demands, like laws that might be to their benefit outrageous. Why not take this moment to get the plebs on side by being very generous. They are extremely tired. We can all see that they've been very cranky every morning. They're not in a good mood. They're teary all the time. Dr G 50:32 10 years of a siege will do that to you? Yeah. Dr Rad 50:36 They're also broke, after so many years of having to pay this apparent war tax, which obviously is paid by everybody. It's not just something that's peculiar to the plebeians. However, obviously it's toughest for the poorer people who are apparently the plebeians, at this moment in time to pay this particular war tax. It would mean so much to them as well, in a symbolic sort of way, if they were able to take something from the enemy rather than have decisions made for them and then be divvied up to them, is some form of payout or some sort of benefit, it would mean more to take it with their own hands, to be like, Aha, I'm taking this vase, and I don't care What you have to say about it, person from Veii, you're my enemy. The Senate would also come away from this looking like the coolest dudes. They'd be Mr. Popular all over the place, and we could all use a little bit of that. Dr G 51:38 Goodness me, what a time to be alive as a Roman watching. Dr Rad 51:44 I feel like I have to tell you where this debate ends up. Dr G 51:47 Please do. I mean, I have some details, but I'm just not even sure where they fit at this point in time. So I'm really waiting for the end of this debate so I can figure out what to tell Dr Rad 51:55 you next. I told you, this is a long 396, it's a big year. Yeah, it's amazing. I'm enjoying it. In the end, they go with Licinius, and a public proclamation is made that if you want a payout, you need to go to they and get it yourself. Oh, boy, Dr G 52:12 after Appius Claudius was so reasonable and everything Dr Rad 52:14 I know. Look, I have to admit, there is something annoyingly pragmatic about what he says, and that was the case the last time we had a big speech from somebody from this family. I can't actually remember if it was the same guy. It probably was. Wasn't that long ago. So lots of Romans do indeed hit the road and go to the camp because they want to get their pair out. Dr G 52:35 I want my booty. They open the walls. Dr Rad 52:39 Now, I know we are getting to a bit of a long point with this episode, but we're so close to they actually falling I feel like I have to take you there. Dr G, take me there. I'm ready. So in the camp Camillus Is there, like a good general and a good Roman, he takes the auspices to make sure that everything is in their favor now. Dr G, do you want to tell us a bit about why he'd be doing this. What are the auspices? Dr G 53:01 Well, it's very important you can't undertake any military action without consulting the gods first. So the auspices is when you look at the patterns of bird movements, generally speaking. So if you have been in Europe, you will have probably been lucky enough at some point to see a muration of starlings. For instance, the patterns that these birds make when they move around the sky can be incredible. Now, it's not just starlings that you might be interested in. It could be eagles. It could be vultures, whatever's out there, but reading and interpreting those signs gives you an indication of maybe how the gods are feeling whether it's a good time to do a bit of an attack where it's time to open up those tunnels and burst out of your Trojan tunnels, slash horse, is it time? Nobody knows. So consulting the birds can really help with something like that. So Camillus undertaking that duty, it does make sense. As a dictator, there is a sense in which there is a religious element to the role, and he could be very well in charge of looking after that side of things as well. So he may have some people on hand to help with the interpretation, but definitely he would be allowed to lead something like that, and it would be important for him to do so in the eyes of everybody from the Roman side, to make sure that everything is okay for going ahead with whatever happens next. Dr Rad 54:29 Well, he clearly got the green light from the birds, and so he goes out, prepares the soldiers. He also chooses this moment to make a vow. Now, I know you're going to want to jump in on this, but I'm I'm just going to tell the narrative and then we can unpack it later. So he makes a vow that he was led by Pythian Apollo. So probably because of the connection the Romans have had in recent years with this whole siege the lake Delphi. And with this God on his side, he is going to be able to conquer they and as a token of his appreciation, he is going to send Apollo the most gigantic box of Lindt chocolates. No, I'm just kidding. He's going to send a tithe of whatever spoils he captures to Apollo. He also asks Juno, a very important goddess in ve to switch sides and come and live in Rome once they have totally trashed the city where she currently is hanging out. And he promises he would set up a really lovely temple with a white picket fence and a slide in the backyard, if she would agree to come over. Dr G 55:44 He's like, hey, girlfriend, you want to come over to my place? Forget these guys. Dr Rad 55:49 Yeah. Now there's a moment that we're going to have to talk about with that later, but for now, I'm going to proceed. So Camillus now makes his advance against fair that much anticipated moment. He's many soldiers on his side, because the Romans could not be more enthusiastic about this. And they attack. They on every side. However, this is not the key to victory. Dr G, this is a mere distraction from the real attack, which is, of course, through the tunnels. That's right, we've seen the Romans do this many times, where they have a distraction and then the real thing going on elsewhere. This is a popular military tactic. Now the people of they did not know that the odds are totally stacked against them at this point in time. Of course, we know that there's been an old soothsayer from they who's totally betrayed his people by telling the Romans everything, maybe under torture, to be fair, but they don't know that. They don't know all the stuff that the Romans know at this point in time. They don't know that the Delphic Oracle has said that they is going to fall. They don't know that the gods had been made these promises if they switched sides and desert them so they have no idea of what is coming. They also have no idea about the mine. Apparently, all that digging was incredibly quiet. They had silences on their pickaxes. So they just do what they would normally do. They run to the ramparts. They've got their weapons. They're wondering why? All of a sudden, after being pretty Quiet on the Western Front for a while, No, I shouldn't say that pretty quiet on the Northern Front for a while, the Romans are being incredibly energetic in their attack. They're like, Oh, what is going on? That's been very, very tame, and now all of a sudden it's like, they're mad men, and we're being attacked on all sides, what is going on. Now, I do love this next part, because Livy tells me specifically, and I quote my translation at this point, men introduce a tale. For those of you who love historiography, this is history being made before our eyes. People, this is Livy telling me that he doesn't believe this story for a second, but he's going to include it anyway, because it's become a part of the folklore of the fall of they, and that is that the king of they, the douchebag that barely started all of this, just because he wasn't very well liked, was making a sacrifice. Now, the Romans in the mine have dug so deeply into they that they can actually hear what is going on, because they haven't broken through the wall yet. But you know, they can hear it. They hear the soothsayer that is with the king say that whoever cut up the innards of the animal that he's about to sacrifice would win this war between Rome and they. So they instantly seize their mermaid. They're like now, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. They break through the wall, they grab the entrails, they race back through the mine, and they present Camillus with the entrails so that he can be the person who cuts them and wins the war. Sounds tasty and not at all slippery. I know delightful, just the kind of thing you want to hear before a meal. However, Livy knows he's talking about something that happened a really long time ago, and I love what he says about it. He says this story more fit to be displayed on the stage that delights in wonders than to be believed. It is worthwhile neither to affirm nor to refute. He's like, You know what this is for the movies. I'm not even gonna talk about it. It's not worth my time. What Dr G 59:31 a tricky moment in Roman history, bursting in on a sacrifice. And, yeah, you know, stealing the entrails. Dr Rad 59:41 You can see why. You know, I said in the previous episode that this part of Livy, where he's talking about the fall of Veii is often something that people like to capture. This is where I think you can get that sort of cinematic feeling from Livy, even he knows it. Let's get back to reality in the mind filled with soldiers and all of us. Sudden, they break through into the temple of Juno, which was on the Citadel of a which was their target point. So all of a sudden they are attacking some of the people from they from behind. You know, they're not expecting this. Obviously, they had no idea that the mind was there. Even though the Romans can hear them, they can't hear the Romans naturally intriguing others. Others race off to break down the gates. Women and slaves inside, they are apparently throwing stones and tiles at the Romans from the roof, and some of the Romans then retaliate by attacking them with fire. Interesting little detail there. We do know some things about roof tiles. They are often thrown. Dr G 1:00:41 They can be deadly. Yeah, those things are Dr Rad 1:00:44 heavy. The horrific sound of war fills the air. Women are screaming, children are crying, men are shouting. It did not take long for soldiers to be thrown over the walls of their city and the gates of they to be opened. The Romans are able to storm this enemy city. Battle is taking place literally everywhere. It's Dr G 1:01:14 happening in the streets. Now, the weakness of the tunnel coming from within, it's not looking good for they Dr Rad 1:01:21 and so Veii is taken. Dr G, it falls, just like we knew it always would, thanks to that trait of this there and the lake and the Delphic Oracle. And as it all starts to wind down, because the Romans have secured their victory, Camillus has his heralds proclaim that anyone without weapons will be spared, because, being an all round nice guy, he wants to prevent a lot of unnecessary killing from taking place. So those without weapons handed themselves over. The Romans, however, now turn their eye to the really important part of this mission, and that is booty, and that might be a good place, I think, to pause, because they has now fallen, but there's a whole lot of stuff that we're going to need to unpack about that next episode, I think. And as we get into the question of booty, Dr G 1:02:18 yes, I think so. Now, one of the things that is common in the sources that I have is a prayer that Camillus makes to the god Jupiter, amongst others. And I'm not sure about where that happens in this timeline either, because it hasn't come up in Livy's account yet. So there is this one thing about Camillus journey this far as dictator and into the heart of they, which I think is worth mentioning because it's going to start to have some consequences for him. And this is the moment where he offers a prayer to the gods, and in the moment of doing so, he makes some promises, like, I want this to all go really well. I'll do whatever is needful to make sure that the gods are kept happy. I'm willing to accept personally any blame for stuff that doesn't go well with this whole situation. So as dictator, and also fulfilling that kind of religious service function in this role, he's really trying to make sure that everything gets pulled off really nicely. And the weird detail that continues to come up about this moment is that, as he's doing this whole prayer thing and being like, let's make this whole situation as great as possible. I'll make this as good as I can. I'll do whatever is needful. I'll make the sacrifices. I'll give you the things later, if as long as we can pull this off, God's help me out. At the end of the prayer, he has a bit of a fall down. He has, yeah, he stumbles. So he has this moment where he's like, I'm going to make this go as as well as I can be in right relationship with the gods. But the moment where he turns around, because apparently he's veiled his head, which is a very traditional and appropriate Roman thing to do in this context of addressing the gods, to appear veiled as he turns around, slipping seems to be a pretty bad sign about how all of this is going to work out, either for Rome or for him, and I feel like that leaves us with another little bit of a cliffhanger, even though we seem to be in a really successful moment for Rome and its siege of a which seems to be in the midst of concluding now in a very successful way for the Romans. But this little religious stumble is perhaps going to be a problem for old mate Camillus. Yes. Dr Rad 1:05:00 Now look, you are totally right in Livy's account. It's when he's looking at all the booty that the Romans have just gathered after they've finished the fighting part of this evening's entertainment, and he it's just more than he could ever imagine. And that's when he starts doing that thing where he gives thanks to the gods. And it is an interesting prayer, and it is one, I think, that repeats in Roman history. We might talk about that a bit again another day. But it's certainly that idea that he says, Look, if any of the gods or any other men thought that he was being given too much good fortune and would get jealous of him, then he would personally sort that out and deal with that, hopefully without damaging his own prospects and life, and without any damage to Rome itself and the Roman people, which is a really weird thing to say, if you think about it, it's not that. He's not just saying thanks for the booty he's making this really weird thing. And as you say in Livy's account, he does fall over, which everybody sees as an omen, apparently. But I agree with you. I think it is more indicative of the fact that in Camillus' life there are going to be some low lows as well as some high highs. Oh Dr G 1:06:18 boy. Well, strap yourselves in. Listeners, Camillus, wild ride has only really just begun, it would seem, oh Dr Rad 1:06:26 yes. And so, dr, G, I think it's time for the partial pick. Dr G 1:06:37 Okay, the partial pick? Well, Rome, let's see how you stuck up against your own credentials. We have five categories of which they can earn up to 10 golden eagles in each one. So if Rome is being as Rome as it possibly could be, they could end up with 50 golden eagles. So let's see how they go. Okay, Dr Rad 1:07:00 so for this part of 396, military clout. Dr, G, what do you reckon? Wow. Dr G 1:07:06 I mean, top notch military clout. I mean, they're wiping the floor. They're taking a whole city. It's all going really well. There's tunnels, there's wall assaults. Everybody's having a great time. People sign up willingly to the levy. Dr Rad 1:07:21 Going, great, go to the plebs. Insight, Dr G 1:07:25 it's basically as good as it could be. Yeah, I feel like, you know we're we're nine or 10 territory here. I think Dr Rad 1:07:31 so too, because, you know, it's not just they obviously remember, Camillus has dealt with the Faliscans and Capenates with zero trouble. I mean, so little trouble. We don't even get an account of what exactly happened. We just get told that it's done dusted. Well, Dr G 1:07:44 I might be able to tell you some more details about what happened, at least with the Philistines next episode. Oh, yeah. Dr Rad 1:07:50 No, that. We'll get to some stuff about them. But I mean, the the initial, the initial, putting them in their place, that's just effortless, done Dr G 1:07:57 and dusted. Yeah, yeah. Military clout, 10 out of 10. Golden Eggs. Dr Rad 1:08:03 Remember the last time we did that? In fact, I don't know if we've Dr G 1:08:06 ever given a 10. Yeah, this is impressive stuff. The second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 1:08:13 Okay? I feel like this is not as good. I mean, we do have the Latins and Hernicians coming to Rome and saying, Whatever you do Rome, we're there for you. And Camillus being like, Thanks, guys. I tip my hat to you. I tip my laurel wreath, Dr G 1:08:31 yes, but it's not at all clear that the Romans necessarily went out of their way to source that support in this particular instance, or whether the Latins and hanushe came to Roma, were like, Well, looks like you could use some help. Or, you know, so it's not the details of it is not clear. So the idea, the central question here is, how much negotiation is being employed by the Romans in order to reach their goals? And since I'm not sure about that, but they do have some help, so we have to assume there's some negotiation, even though we don't know what it was. Then maybe we're looking at like a four or five. Dr Rad 1:09:11 Oh, wow. That's way more than I was going for. I was gonna give them like a two. Dr G 1:09:16 I'm clearly having a good day where I'm being very generous. Dr Rad 1:09:20 You know what? You've been infected by Camillus spirit, just like the Romans were. You're feeling wildly optimistic. I am being way too generous. Dr G 1:09:29 Well, how about a three then, okay, three, it is expansion. Yes. Dr Rad 1:09:35 I mean, this is a really big deal. We will talk about this, I'm sure, multiple times. But just to give the listeners some sort of perspective, dr, G, now that they falls under Roman control and remains there, estimates vary a little bit, but we're thinking that this basically doubles the territory of Rome, maybe even more than double, maybe adds like another. 60% to what they currently possess. It's a really, really big deal. They is a very prosperous Etruscan city. Dr G 1:10:07 This is a massive moment. So yeah, if you think about it on just a scalable level, like Rome, is nothing like this sort of Imperial Rome that you see in popular film and things like that. This is a small city state that controls adjacent areas that are local to the city, and that's true for all of their neighbors as well. So Veii is its own city state, and they have more of a connection to a true area than they do to the Latins or the Romans or anybody like that. So this is effectively doubling, if not more, as you say, the capacity of Rome in terms of what they control, because they've now taken a whole major other city, yes. So this is huge, off the charts, massive in terms of expansion, Dr Rad 1:10:59 yeah, and an Etruscan one at that. I mean, come on, we know that taking land is obviously going to mean a lot for the Romans, because we've had these ongoing issues of debt, and we've had questions about public land, which, look, they're probably anachronistic, but they're being raised so in the narrative that we're dealing with, this would definitely be a big deal. Plus, as you highlighted in the previous episode, its resources, its influence in the area. I mean, they don't really now have another major rival in this Tiber Valley area. Yeah, Dr G 1:11:33 Yeah, it's pretty impressive. So in terms of expansion, I think we're also looking at a nine or a 10. Dr Rad 1:11:40 Let's give them a nine. I think. Dr G 1:11:45 Are they ever going to expand as much, percentage wise, upon themselves as they I was Dr Rad 1:11:50 gonna say yeah, there are Yeah. There are some other victories and expansions that are obviously going to be very important. But in terms of percentage, I feel like this is a big one. This is huge, okay, so maybe 10, yes, proportionally, it's all proportional. Rome, don't get too Dr G 1:12:07 my Camillus enthusiasm continues, indeed, all right, that leads us to the category of virtus. Ooh. Dr Rad 1:12:18 This is a bit of a tricky one, because Camillus is obviously a very impressive, important figure, as the Romans think of him. But would you say we've really seen an act of virtus? Dr, G, no, yeah, I don't think so either, not in this moment I think comes later in his career. Dr G 1:12:38 Yeah, it's not like so for Camillus to be participating in, like a classic virtus moment, we'd expect things, something like leading from the front, so him actually popping out of the tunnel first, for instance, could have been a thing. It wasn't he clearly sent people ahead. Other things that might constitute weirdos for him is him facing off with the king of they and having a one on one combat. We don't hear anything about something like that happening. So whoever that guy is, he seems to really fall off the radar. And we don't get that sort of really personalized commander on commander thing that you would also definitely classify as a weirdos moment. So yeah, in that sense, like it's not that Camillus isn't doing a great job. He clearly is. He's encouraging everybody. But those things aren't considered traditional Roman weird tours. No, Dr Rad 1:13:32 exactly. And also, I'm not so sure I subscribe to this idea of the king of a I mean, he pops up at the beginning of this story to get this war started, pops up at the end. We never really get much information about him, apart from everybody hates him. Who is this guy? Well, he ain't no Lars Tolumnius, that's for sure Yeah, okay, so not really. And surprisingly, even though we get this very cinematic description of the fall of a in Livy, where, again, he's probably going for a bit of an epic moment there. We don't get anyone who is singled out for their achievements, which I find surprising. I feel like that would surely have been a moment for somebody in Roman history, but maybe they just don't want to detract from Camillus. You know, this is his moment Dr G 1:14:19 to shine, yeah, yeah, like kimberlius have his moment in the sun. And the other point where you might potentially have some weird to us is in the senatorial chamber with the speech exchanges and how those go down depending on what people say. But it sounds like it's a very reasonable debate, and it's not the sort of one where people start showing off their scars or anything like that. So we're not getting into like big masculine Roman energy there, either. We're just getting some exchanges of opinions, which seems pretty standard for the day. Yeah, so I'm gonna say zero for virtus, because I'm not seeing any clear examples. I'm Dr Rad 1:15:00 not, but you did just give me a great idea for a T shirt. It's not BDE, it's B, R, M, E, Dr G 1:15:10 well, you know, I'm happy to make more T shirts. And our last category is the citizen school. Dr Rad 1:15:18 Well, I do feel like there's some things to celebrate here, even though normally, you and I would say that wartime is probably not a fantastic time to be wartime Rome not a great time. They seem to be extremely excited about this one, and it goes very well for them. As I say, it's almost effortless in spite of all the mining. And then also the people who weren't even involved in the siege get told to grab their stuff and head on out to the camp and, you know, take some spoils for themselves. Dr G 1:15:57 Line up, get yourself a piece of a Dr Rad 1:16:02 I love to think of they as being like the Berlin Wall is these days. You know how people say, you know, I have a piece of the Berlin Wall. I feel like that's what people in Rome would be saying, they, Oh, my, my great grandfather still has a piece of they. You know, he still has some jewelry that he wrestled out of the hands of a crying woman. This Dr G 1:16:22 bowl came from the temple in Veii, you know? Yeah, Dr Rad 1:16:26 pretty much I feel like that is something that you would be trading in if you were a dealer of antiques in Rome. So Dr G 1:16:35 everybody has the potential to increase their wealth slightly. And so part Dr Rad 1:16:40 of it to be part of history. Dr, G, yeah. Dr G 1:16:43 Oh, it's great. Yeah, fantastic. Sack of a city, get in there constructed Dr Rad 1:16:49 before our very eyes. I mean history, not the city. The city is being torn down before our very eyes. I Dr G 1:16:54 was like, kids do not do as the Romans did. No, not cool. Okay, so, but on the citizen score level, as far as the Romans are concerned, this is a great time to be a Roman citizen. You've got this real opportunity. It seems like the fighting was pretty easy in the end, they just needed that little push off the edge, which was the tunnel system. And once that happened, it was like a house of cards, and now it's booty Central, so probably at least a five, if not more, I Dr Rad 1:17:24 think probably more. I reckon we have to go an eight for this one. I mean, not a 10, because obviously people are still dying, but I feel like it has to be an eight. Everyone seems very excited. There's not a whiff of tribune of the plebs in this entire account. Yeah, Dr G 1:17:42 they're not even listed as magisters for the year. That's how unimportant they are, yeah. Dr Rad 1:17:47 And I mean, we've also got, you know, a plebeian hero as magistrate, or his son as magistrate, speaking up and winning against Appius Claudius, although, once again, it seems like class loyalty is bit of an issue, because he is talking about the fact that, hey, let's get the plebs on side, and they've been doing it tough, clearly not associating himself. I think with that particular group of people, it Dr G 1:18:13 does sound like there's a lot of unbelievable things that are happening for this year. I'm happy for it to be an eight. Let's do it. Fantastic. Dr Rad 1:18:19 Well. Dr, G, hold on to your hat. The Romans have actually got over 25 Golden Eagles. For the first time in a really long time. We're at the grand total of 31 golden eagles. Oh, Dr G 1:18:36 my goodness, that is massive. I know we haven't even Dr Rad 1:18:41 talked about the whole year. I mean last episode, because we only did the very beginning of the year. They only got one. But if you add that one, it's 32 so far and counting. For 396, BCE, very impressive, Dr G 1:18:52 Rome, after what feels like a real sort of a desert scape of partial picks for the last few years, they're making a resurging comeback Absolutely, Dr Rad 1:19:05 and we haven't even finished this year yet. Dr, G, I still have so much more to tell you. Dr G 1:19:12 Well, I look forward to our next episode together. Dr Rad 1:19:15 Indeed, you music. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buying us a coffee on ko fi, in return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say hello, hello, hello to Hannah, Dillon, Karl, Aether and Not who are enjoying. Their one year Patreon anniversary with us. Thank you so much for being a part of our partial band. However, if you spent all of your money in the post Saturnalia sales, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai