Latest / WTF! Women Talk Finance / EP 18: The Journey of Entrepreneurs, with Betsy Westhafer

Transcript

EP 18: The Journey of Entrepreneurs, with Betsy Westhafer · WTF! Women Talk Finance

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jackie.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Candace.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is WTF.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And let's get into it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, and welcome back to WTF Women Talk Finance.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Candace and I are here today with Betsy Westhafer, and we are so excited to talk about the windy road of entrepreneurship, the ups and downs of being a founder, especially being a woman in business and kind of doing it all, handling it all.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's certainly no straight path between A and B.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we're really excited to talk with Betsy about this today.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Most founders will tell you revenue growth is the goal.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Betsy's gonna tell you that revenue growth gets noticed, but revenue durability is what gets paid.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Betsy's always been passionate about an idea that founders feel in their bones.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: That building a business should mean building something that lasts, building something that holds its value no matter what comes next, whether that's raising capital, transitioning the business, navigating market disruption, or stepping away completely on your own terms.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what inspired her to found Revdura Institute, where she serves as chief vision officer with a mission to help founders uncover the strength already inside their business and shore up the fragile revenue that could otherwise derail the future for the founder and the business.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have her tell you all about Revdura and what it's about and how it's designed to help founders create businesses that are stable, expandable, and transferable.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to that, she's also founder and CEO of the Congruity Group, an international award-winning executive customer, executive engagement firm that she launched back in 2015.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: She's also a certified exit planning advisor, a co-author of two best-selling books, a speaker, the co-host of the Really Know Your Customer podcast, and a mentor to the next generation of founders at the university level.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Huge bio, amazing woman.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Betsy, we're so excited to have you with us.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And audience, please welcome Betsy Westhafer.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: So excited to be here.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hard to do all that by the time you're 29 years old, right?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: I yeah, you know, I started, I started early.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I actually did start early as an entrepreneur.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we can we can dive into that.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: I want to hear about it.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, how early?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Lemonade stand at age seven.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, Jackie.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I said lemonade stand at age seven.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like how early?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was probably 10 or 11, and I used to babysit kids at the swimming pool that I went to.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I had a lot of moms that started competing for my time.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things I remember doing is I had like the old style checkbook registers, and I would track how much each parent paid me.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: And one woman who was not known for paying me the highest rate actually saw me doing that and she said, What are you doing?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I'm just writing down my my income from babysitting here at the pool.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: And she goes, Well, how much are people charge are people paying you?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: And she got really nervous and jittery.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then she started paying me more, and I didn't even have to ask her because she saw me documenting that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: So that was my first entrepreneurial bug.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't happen often.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Candace, I I'm speaking for myself, but I love your input too.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's it doesn't happen that someone's like, Can I pay you more?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm kind of blown away by this because especially, you know, we've talked about it here on the podcast, women especially have a hard time asking for their worth.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And this was one of those you didn't have to ask necessarily, but highlighting that someone wasn't paying you your worth.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: What did that teach you at 10 years old about knowing your value?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, is that something that was really instrumental in how you carried yourself forward in business?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: No, not at all.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: I always didn't, I totally undervalued myself.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: I wish I could have gotten some deep lessons.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I always get, which I know is not true.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, nope, nope.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: I I have always undercut my value.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just something at the age I am now that I'm really diving into.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I have done a lot of personal work on why is that?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what are the things that have transpired transpired over the whole course of my life that have caused me to undervalue myself, give away the farm, all the things.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I could point to about five different things I can think of that, you know, have have impact on that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so yeah, I wish I could have figured it out at 10 years old because that would have been amazing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been great.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: What are the five things if you don't mind sharing?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I want to highlight too, you have both entrepreneur and corporate experience.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So this is relevant to the female founder, but also someone who's working and undervalued.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: It like in a in a W-2 where you kind of are just taking whatever somebody is telling you your value is.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: I when I was before I became full-time entrepreneur, had some jobs, I never asked for more, I never negotiated my offer letter, you know, just all those things.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: You just kind of take it.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one thing I just was never coached by anybody to do anything different.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: And um so I think that's part of it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um I had a fabulous childhood.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um there were tentacles of some alcohol issues um in my life growing up and um and beyond into adulthood.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that can often cause somebody to be a plea a people pleaser.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um nothing in my case, nothing horrible, but just the you know, just the environment of of alcohol issues can sometimes cause some some people pleasing tendencies.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so the don't rock the boat, don't ask.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you don't want to be adding to the chaos.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And women too.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be fair.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: It really wasn't chaotic in my world.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: I know that is the case, and I want to be fair that it really wasn't chaotic, it was just a different kind of environment that made me want to stabilize the ship a little bit.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then, you know, just um I don't know.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think probably the the era I grew up in, you know, um it just the shift from what it looked like when I got out of college to now, as far as women working and, you know, having good positions of power and having that sense of empowerment, um, is very different back in the day.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: I graduated college in 1985.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: So it it was different back then.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: The narrative is that you can do it now, but you still gotta do the other stuff too.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: If that makes sense.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Before, like the the female in the household was the mom and the wife, and the scheduler and the meal cooker and the cleaner and the one who uh kept a lot of it together, kept the ship running.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And working outside the home was not super common, or if it was, it was a little bit taboo.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, the narratives changed and the environment's changed.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Women are all the time working outside the house, but the expectation is that they're doing that and all the stuff at home yet.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I just had a thought, a story that that reminds me of how hard it was when I did go back.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: I stayed home with my kids for 12 years.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I was late getting started on my career.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Late.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was my choice, so it wasn't late.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: I just started later on my career.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time I was traveling to some really cool places.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I just remember I was going to my daughter's Girl Scout meeting, and they were looking for a volunteer for something.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: I said, Oh, I'm really sorry, I can't.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: And this woman said, Oh, where are you going to now?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of really snarky.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it made me feel really bad that I was working.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, I had to answer Maui, and that did not land well, you know, with the Girl Scout moms that were looking for volunteers.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt so guilty for having this trip for work.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so it wasn't just like the corporate, uh I don't know the right word, but it wasn't just that.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: It was even in my environment with the Girl Scout moms and just other people that really made it really tough.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think too?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you mentioned when you graduated you were raised by a generation of women who if you were able to work, you know, and women women could be terminated for pregnancy.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, they weren't necessarily able to, in all states, have a bank account on their own without a co without a male cosigner or a credit card without a male cosigner.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you were raised by this generation where it was just almost like be grateful that you're getting paid, be grateful that you have this job.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm wondering how much of that trickles down generation to generation, that now we are at a a time where we're starting to ask a little bit more, but still not nearly at the rate that we should.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I you know, it would what just struck me about what you just said, Candace, is that we have to ask someone versus this is what it is, you know?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: And um it's really interesting when I meet someone that's so confident and comfortable in their own skin that it's not a request to be paid more or a request for a better position or whatever the case may be, when it's really this is how I am available to you, should you choose to let the choice be theirs rather than asking, you know, please, please, please.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's when true empowerment really starts to show up when you actually are carrying yourself in a way that you're not asking for something that you deserve just on the surface, if that makes sense.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes go ahead, Candace.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, you go ahead.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's just part of this, there's like layers to this narrative, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really difficult, I think, because if you do the work, and I suspect you have, I know Candace and I talk all the time about like our therapy, our therapists, our, you know, we it takes a it takes a village.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's when you dig and dig and dig and dig it, it comes down to like your sense of worth and whether you have this internal nexus where you're able to move through the world and be like, wow, I gave enough, I did enough, I am enough, uh, period.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you're able from that position to like command your worth.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: You just ask for it if they're not interested, okay.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or the the converse to that is kind of always looking outside ourselves for validation for the world to tell us what we're worth, for the market, for the job, for the people, for the social circle to not poo-poo our trip to Hawaii.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know what I mean?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it it is, it's very difficult.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's really difficult to move from that external validation-seeking self to the one inside who's like, I'm comfortable with what I gave and what I did and what I do.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um it could be lifelong work for a lot of us.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think the whole concept of comparison is so difficult.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: And social media just puts that on steroids.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm really trying to mentor the young people, my kids included, um, just about how how depleting comparison can be.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I look at most of my friends are retiring and doing their thing, and that's great.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm glad for them.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's not something I want in my life.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have a desire to retire, quote unquote.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but if I got into the comparison thing, I'd be like, oh, I should be retired and playing golf in Florida.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and that's a that's kind of a lighthearted case, but comparing yourself financially, comparing yourself body-wise, comparing yourself intellectually, all those things, or as a mother, uh, as a wife, all those things that the opportunity to compare yourself to somebody else is so deflating if you let it.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's been one of my big guardrails is just trying really hard not to compare.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't say this lightly, but what a waste that would be if we if you just stopped doing all the wonderful work that you're doing to go golf in Florida.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would that I if that's what you wanted, I'd be so thrilled for you.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: But we would the the clients you serve uh us, we would be missing a huge value that you give.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that you kind of highlight that that comparison never really stops and just doing that internal work.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: I do want to say, so we've been talking about like personal worth, but what you do isn't that different on the grand scale.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about individual, but you know, you really work with more businesses on um revenue growth and revenue durability.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why it's so great to talk to you even about personal income and personal durability, because I think they they must have so many overlaps, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, my passion behind this revenue durability actually stems from my husband's business.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: So he had a jewelry store, and he's allowed me to tell this story.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he had a jewelry store for 32 years, and his father owned the store for 28 years before that, and the founder owned it before that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: So almost a hundred years of history of this store.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: And we didn't know what we didn't know back in 2006, and we liquidated, closed, and walked away with nothing after almost 100 years of this business.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: And knowing what I know now, we would have had a million different options on how not to let that happen.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um, as a result, the ripple effects, those people lost their jobs, the city lost some tax revenue, the the space where he had the jewelry store sat empty for five years.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: So the tenant lost that rent for five years.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's now a Pizza Hut.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it's it's such a personal journey on this revenue durability.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: And like you guys, I got my SIPA, uh certified exit planning advisor, credential.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And thinking about all of these businesses in the next however long, 10 years of boomers exiting their businesses, and thinking if if one jewelry store owner in Dayton, Ohio had that kind of ripple effect, imagine the impact of all these businesses if they cannot successfully exit and and transition that business to continue.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: And like what that does to communities and to families and to the psyche of the founder and you know, all of those things.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's really what's driving my passion.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not just about revenue growth because the business was doing well, but we just didn't have any idea how to transition it.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: And we and it and part of it was our fault.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't do our our research and we didn't meet the right people.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: We just didn't know how to even go about it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: And um so it just it actually kind of scares me thinking about all these business owners that are putting their blood, sweat, and tears for a lifetime into a business that's not going to transition.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you another way to say it is what I'm hearing is that it's the the crux of the problem is people aren't aware they have options that they do.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Business owners, founders, business people aren't aware that there's other ways to solution a problem or other approaches.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is that fair?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a piece of it.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think the other thing is they don't start early enough thinking about how do I tee this business up to get a really good outcome at the end of the day.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um I think about businesses where the founder has all of the relationships where two or three customers make up the biggest part of the revenue, where they don't have contracts in place, where I learned something um just the other day, somebody asked me if we were a certified woman-owned business.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, yes.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, big red flag.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: It was an MA guy.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, that's a big red flag uh for a buyer.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Really?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: I thought it was like, hey, look at this.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: And they said, if that revenue comes because of that certification, and it that might not transfer, you know, that that if the buyer doesn't have the ability to maintain that minority-owned status, and a lot of revenue comes to them because they have that revenue or that minority-owned status, that revenue is not durable, it's fragile revenue.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we have that on the business locally owned, is actually one of those red flags, too, because your buyer might not be local.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's so many little hidden places of fragile revenue.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what Revdura Institute is out to solve for.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: And um one of the things, kind of going down a little rabbit hole here, but um when we first started this, and I now have a partner, which I've not had before, and it's it's working out beautifully because his brain works very differently than mine.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but one of the things um we did at the very start was we read the book The Greater Game by Dan Sullivan, it's strategic coach, which I know you guys are very familiar with.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And they talked about having a 25-year vision versus a like a five-year vision.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, oh my God, at my age, a 25-year vision, but as I read into it, it was so clear that you make decisions differently when you think about a 25-year vision.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and it, that's what switched it from, oh, this is a this revenue durability thing is something I can add to my existing practice as you know, a value ad that I can bring to clients to an institute with big huge goals of surviving far more than I will be working, you know, 25-year vision, independent institute with an advisor ecosystem that can go out because as it was, Dennis, my partner and I are not going to be able to put a dent in this problem of all these businesses that need to exit in the next 10 years.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we were thinking, how do we do this at scale to really, really make that impact?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that took a 25-year vision.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it it may not be, it won't be us 25 years from now, but hopefully it will still continue because it's gonna be a long time with these business owners.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then like millennials and Gen Xers that are exiting multiple times.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: There's just so much.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: And having been through the pain of not exiting in a great way, um, it just was gonna require much bigger thinking than just adding it to a consulting practice.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of our listeners probably, especially if they're business owners, there's this difference between being having successful revenue, successful income, and durability.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's almost like a risk around that.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because it can go away as quick as it can.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's whether you have a business or or a great paying job.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that stability has almost like a question mark around it.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing on the durability side that is unique and can really hyper focus on a lot of times what is a big potential keeping you up at night at risk?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Excuse me.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, so we everything we've built, we've built through a buyer's lens.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like where could there be a problem when they go to exit?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: So backing that up, we start with a diagnostic just to get a baseline of where are they in these three pillars of stability, expandability, and transferability.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then within those, we have 12 capabilities.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: And we address those things like we talked about the founder dependency and the customer concentration and all the things that can present these risks.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: And we look for how do we solve the things that are easily solvable and get that into an operating rhythm so it doesn't reappear because it could be worked on and then two years later it could be back to where it was if it's not built as a management discipline, which is how we're framing this, that this needs to be embedded into the way into the DNA of an organization on how they look at things.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: And to me, I think about the emphasis on the customers and the customer capital is critical because that's where every dollar of revenue comes from, is the customers.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so, so important.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: I just think it's really overlooked as a really high-level strategic management discipline.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's that's the methodology we've built.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: We've got a beautiful platform for advisors to help their clients with these.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: We are not taking on advisor clients, or we're not taking on business owner clients ourselves.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: We want to remain independent and support the advisors that are working with these clients, but we want to make sure that they have everything they need to really get this embedded into the fabric of the clients that they're working with.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then at the end of the day, we are building strategic assets that they can take with them, put in the data room, whatever the case may be, so that they go into that negotiation with confidence and evidence rather than just a narrative.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's good for the founder and the seller, but it's also great for the buyer because the buyer can say, Oh, I've got documentation now that says the concentration's not a problem, the founder dependency is not a problem.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: All of these things are in good order, so that makes me as a buyer know this is a good, this is a good business.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: They've they've got their revenue where there's not a lot of fragility.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then we have some scoring to kind of indicate where on on the the spectrum of of revenue durability where they fall, and they can use that as a gauge for doing you know in due diligence.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: That is not unusual.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is the founder reality.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we step in right there.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tom Powell, and at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that you have a partner for the first time ever, and you shared your story about why um why or I rather what occurred in your life that made you think about a clean exit, a strong exit, you know, leaving a business on your terms rather than someone else's.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: You shared that as kind of the the jumping off point as, you know, that uh helped form Rev Dora.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Walk us through kind of some of the other twists and turns that you've navigated along the way and why now?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why a partner in this business now?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's such a great question, and it's a loaded question.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um so the work we uh have been and continue to do with Congruity, because Congruity is still going on as an entity, um, and it actually supports a lot of the RevDora principles of customer capital.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I was working at the big multi multinationational type companies, billion-dollar plus companies.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um and over the last three or four years, it just got so much more challenging to get one, get a deal across the finish line to work with these companies, but to get the leadership team aligned and to get time on the calendar, and it just was getting harder and harder over the last three years.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: I've been in this business almost 12 years, and the last three or four were really, really difficult.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And for a small company that kills cash flow, kills morale, and and you know, just even getting reimbursed for travel expenses takes time with the big companies because they can.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it it was just not fun anymore.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the the vulnerable part that we talked about as far as going deep.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: At the same time, I had a lot of personal tragedies in that same three and a half, four-year time period.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: It was just one of those things, one right after the other.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um taking hits at work, just morale's dropping.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not feeding you, it's not filling you up, it's feeling like a drain, and then you go home and it's more drain.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: More.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it was, you know, just losing people in my life to to health issues.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, my my husband had a couple of of really big health events in his life, and it would and lost my sister unexpectedly, just all kinds of things that one of them is big.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then it was just that slice of my life where it was just coming rapid fire.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and I'm sure that did not help me on the business front.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think they were kind of both self-perpetuating.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was so miserable at work that it was hard to show up well at home and vice versa.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so I and that's the I mean, the fun part of the story is um that was toward the end of last year.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know if I want to be an entrepreneur anymore.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: And this is this is the founder's isolation paradox that we were talking about on your lunch and learn, you know, just earlier today.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just like, I don't know what to do.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: I I just don't know where to go from here.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um about that time, Tom Powell sent me a link to the SEPA certification.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, I think this might be a way we can collaborate.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I don't even know what this is.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I looked into it and I was like, at that point, I wish I could say, oh, I was intentional, thinking, oh, this is gonna be the path forward for me.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I was kind of like, what the heck?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what else to do.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so I took the course, passed the exam, and it was during that coursework that I realized one, I don't want to be an exit planner, but that customer capital piece I think is really not getting its due for how important it is.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so then that's what kind of led to the evolution of me focusing on customer capital.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: It ultimately led to a partnership and then the institute.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I had always been, to your point about a partner, I think I'd always been hesitant because I don't think I'd found the right partner.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: And um then when Dennis and I connected, I was like, this might be it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I did get some counsel about should I take on a partner?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: What should that look like?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I thought, you know, I think I don't want the heaviness, the burden of this entire entrepreneurial venture on my own anymore.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: And and it wasn't the ego of being, you know, sole owner anymore, and some of the things that probably weren't great thinking in the early days.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: And even with going from large e uh enterprise companies to small to mid-market, it used to be kind of an ego thing to say, oh, I work with these big companies and have their logos on my website.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I simply do not care about that anymore.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: And my heart is so much more with the founders and the small and medium-sized businesses, and I'm so much happier.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Just I'm I'm having the most fun of my entire career.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it it's not generating the money yet that the other company did, but I'm having so much more fun and I feel so much more fulfilled.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I know if we do the right things for these founders, the money will start flowing.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: And and candidly, we have not fully launched into the market yet.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why the money's not flowing yet.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: But um, but I'm just so much more fulfilled and energized and like back to the feeling of there aren't enough hours in the day to do what I get to do.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: We've had several conversations since you conceptualized this, and every time I will just just validate, you show up so inspired every time.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's so good to hear.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: I love hearing that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: I because it's real.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love this because um I remember when I was I I love Oprah, I still do, but I would get home from school and I'd watch see Oprah on TV.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I still wish she was on at four o'clock.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember her talking one time about like your life begins at 40.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking, oh my gosh.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think I've seen later things, and she's like, you get so much more clarity at 50.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: And other people have said this, right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: That like, oh my life just gets richer.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know yourself, you know um what you want.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's kind of the vibe I'm getting from what you're saying, is it kind of took all of this, it took this whole journey to get you to where you are right now, and this level of happiness and joy that you're getting from your career.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I really, really love that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, how do how does a a founder or anybody, how does anybody grow without sacrificing her health, family, sanity, all the things that we're kind of taught to put on the back burner?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you prioritize those things as you're trying to, whether you're growing a business or growing into your new career, growing into your new self?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's such a great question.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: And you hit the nail on the head.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's prioritizing.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's really hard to do.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: When we were talking today on your lunch and learn about taking time out to meditate, and that's not a revenue generating activity at that moment.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: It absolutely is a revenue generating opportunity.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: And just the clarity of, and I get up at five and I go to the gym, and then I do my readings, and on a good day I'll do my meditation.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: And but I also give myself grace when I don't do all those things.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the the not striving for perfection is really, really important there.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and I've learned just in the last couple of years, I've learned a lot about giving myself grace.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that prioritizing that, and just for a good example, um summers are very busy for family time with us.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: We have a place at a lake, we take the kids and grandkids.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not at my desk doing as much work, and I was feeling kind of bad about it because now I do have a partner, you know, and that's that's a different thing than when I just take time away, but I've got a partner that's counting on me.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I had a conversation with him, and he was like, No, this is this is your balance, this is your time.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: And and I don't do a lot in the winter months.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so trying to pack a lot in and just prioritizing my family and um and my health and my and just as much as my physical health, my mental health, my emotional health, my spiritual health, all of those things take time.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just get up really early and then I really don't plan to be at my desk until about 8:30 or 9, which is unheard of in some entrepreneurial circle circles.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: But if I don't take that time up front, I'm not as productive.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, it's just and and I think that's another thing about getting older is you start seeing people your own age having health issues and and realizing how important it is to really take good care of yourself.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because you know, I've lost a lot of friends in the last few years and started to lose siblings and those kinds of things that it kind of smacks you in the in the face when you get to be the age I am.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I just want to I want to make sure that I am running, jumping, skipping it well into my later years.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: I I just thought of a story if you don't mind me sharing.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm part of a group that is um very, very helpful for just keeping that serenity and and grace upon yourself, that kind of thing.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a woman in there, and she was just like, Oh, I wish I'd known this stuff when I was younger, and there's just so much personal development work I need to do, and I just I'm learning so much by being in this group, but I have so much ahead of me to do.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: She is 90 years old, and I'm just like, I love her so much, and so really surrounding yourself with people that just keep you so inspired to just keep going and move every day and and do personal development every day.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and but yeah, she's 90 years old, and she's just like, oh, I got so much I need to work on.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is I love that this and this reminds me, I didn't know the podcast was gonna go this direction, but we are women talking finance.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Candace, I think you'll know which book I'm gonna talk about.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's I'm gonna forget the name of the book right off the top of my head.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's something like in the flow, and it's written about the second clock that women have that men don't.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Men have a circadian clock, so do women.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: It tracks the 24 hours in a day, but women also have a second clock called the Infradian clock, and it is on a 28-day cycle, and it talks about there are days in with it throughout the month where you're gonna have way more energy and can knock 24 things off of your to-do list in a day.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are other days that are meant for resting and maybe not taking a meeting before 10, or maybe taking no meetings that day.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Are but but none of us are taught that ever.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: So this 90-year-old friend of yours, can you imagine?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like she's like, I wish I would have learned this when I was young.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can we imagine if we were teaching our 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15-year-old girls?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: You get to have two different clocks.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Not everything in your life needs to run on this 24-hour circadian rhythm.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to wake up every day at 6 a.m., go to the gym, eat your breakfast by 8, be in your meetings by 8:30, and chug it out till 5 p.m.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: when you know the 24-hour clock shuts down and people then have like a social hour.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's I'm I'm blabbing.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's studies that show men are at their most social in the afternoon.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you guys, but by like 2 to 5 p.m., I want to be by my I've I've been like a room about me.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have signed bright.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm ready to rest.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's funny you say that.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: I had a an event last night down in Cincinnati and I got home at 11 o'clock.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: I am usually in bed between 8:30 and 9.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a networking function.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was super high energy.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: It was actually at a professional soccer game, and it was so intense, and there were a lot of people to meet, and it it was so hard to stay on that whole time.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then I woke up this morning feeling like I had been hit by a truck.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I'm not going to the gym.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm staying in my pajamas till the very last second.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't feel bad about it.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't feel like, uh, I'm wasting my time.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: I need to be productive.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that is also underestimated for people how important it is to have downtime and rest time.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: And even if, you know, whether it's a week on the beach or it's two hours in a morning where you've had a big long day the day before.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then once I got up and got going, I had a breakfast meeting at 10, I felt great.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: But if I hadn't given myself that that space just to kind of slightly recover, I wouldn't have been as good in that breakfast meeting.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think it's just so hard to accept how important rest and downtime is for entrepreneurs and for women.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think too, that statement of like rest doesn't have to be earned.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: I say that a lot to myself now.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't have to earn rest.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: I can just rest.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I also wonder, I um, because Jackie and I both I haven't I haven't finished the book yet, but it did make me think I've always thought I'm an I'm an introvert because I just um it's not about whether or not you can be outgoing or not.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's about what it does to you after.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I'm a shell of a human after socializing.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I'm actually curious if it's just because of the time of day that most of these things are.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: If maybe that's not maybe it's to partial.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: I do think I socializing is a drain for me, but especially considering when are social events they are mostly in the circle.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: So again, this goes back to kind of like full circle.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Women need to demand what they need for themselves.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you prior you you take care of yourself first thing.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love this.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that your first part of the day is three hours for you.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that looks different.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know you and I are rowing buddies.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um some mornings it means getting on the rower, and some mornings it means heck no, I'm staying in my pajamas till the last possible moment when I need to be on camera.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: So And there's sometimes when I'm feeling sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but there's sometimes when I feel like I could go to the gym.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like going to the gym, but I feel some anxiety starting to creep in, or I've had a couple of thoughts of self-doubt and uh I don't know if this is gonna work.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and on those days, I really try in the morning to just kind of do a little self-assessment and check in with myself and like, should I go to the gym and work that out, or should I sit with my headphones and listen to some kind of spiritual thing that's gonna calm my nerves down a little bit?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so um I I just really try not to get too locked into what this looks like and and more in touch with what do I need right now?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's really been that's been that's new for me.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: I would normally not go to the gym and then feel guilty about it all day.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so I don't do that so much anymore.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love that because I think most of social media is like you're feeling crappy because you didn't go to the gym.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: Get your ass up, go to the gym.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: And sure, that might be the thing, but I love that you ask yourself is do I should I go to the gym and work this out?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or do I need a different type of self-care this morning?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to do some meditation?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to do some other type of work?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um that it's not this one cure all.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's just so insightful and it's not what we're always hearing, right?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, there's there's been such a a big emphasis on the grind of an entrepreneur.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they just gotta grind it out, and and and there are a lot of influencers out there that really push that narrative, and people buy into it and feel less than if they're not grinding 24-7 and and hitting the perfect, you know, markers all along the way.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I just don't buy into that.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: I just really don't.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's been releasing that mindset has been so much better for me and certainly better for my family, and better for um my business um to be able to just say, you know what, sometimes, and sometimes it's not even doing anything.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like this morning, I was like, I am going back to sleep, and I did not wake up till eight o'clock.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: And my initial instinct was, oh my God, it's eight o'clock.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, no, it's eight o'clock, it's okay.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: I needed that sleep.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Our audience is very, we have a wide range of ages in our audience, and it is both men and women, but just to be true to our name, if there are younger women on this in this audience dealing with these issues of um really buying into and being impacted and affected by that societal narrative that your value is your output.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: It is productivity.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: When someone asks you how you're doing, it's like the badge of honor to be like, Oh, I'm so busy.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: What would you suggest as some tools or a nice way to approach working through that for those in our audience that are in the middle of that right now?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, great question.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think part of it is who you surround yourself with.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I I get energy from so many different sources, but I can tell you every single time I talk to you guys, my energy is off the charts, you know, and I I just like surrounding myself with people that bring good energy.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's one thing.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then just finding older women that are further ahead on this journey and and really taking to heart that they know a few things.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's wisdom in the years, you know, and and I'm like I'm taking my inspiration from this 90 year old woman that's gonna say I need more.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: More 90-year-old women in my life.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but even 60-year-old women, you know, we've we've been there, we've done a lot of things, we've been through a lot, we continue to go through a lot.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I think just having conversations with people that are a little further ahead of you in the journey would be a really good way to do that.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: I will tell you a hack that has helped me so much in the last, let's call it six months.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've been documenting my journey of starting a new company and having a partner.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, I don't know whether this will be a book someday or just uh something I leave behind for my family or whatever.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: But I go into Chat GPT and I do what I call founder chronicle downloads.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I just say, like this morning, I was just like, man, I am not feeling it today.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: I am exhausted, this event last night.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And other days I'm like, oh my gosh, this was the best day.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: We got X milestone hit, you know, and and it goes through a lot of, and I talk about my personal stuff and nothing that I would fear going out into the, you know, the AI world, but it comes back with some perspective that is really interesting.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it will never, ever, ever, in my mind, ever replace a human or a human conversation.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: But it's really interesting because it does help identify patterns.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, in fact, it said, you know, two months ago, you would have felt guilty all day long for taking that extra hour, a couple of hours to sleep in.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: And now you're saying this, you know.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it really helps build a lot of perspective on the journey from like a 30,000-foot objective view.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: That has helped me so much to say, okay, today's I'm tired and a little more self-doubts creeped in today, but it's because I'm tired, you know, and a previous post, I wouldn't have acknowledged that it was tired.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: It'd be like, I spiral because I'm not sure this is gonna work, you know.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just been a really interesting, interesting little exercise I do.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's as easy as just pushing the microphone on on ChatGPT and and dictating how I'm feeling in any given moment.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for sharing that.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for even highlighting some of the the more vulnerable times on your path.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we'll we'll take it to heart that we've got the wisdom of someone who's been there a little before you know, we cross some of the the paths that you have.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being with us today.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I'd look for an update in a few months on how your new partnership and your new company is moving along and kind of what you're offering to your to your group once you do a formal launch.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, formal launch is by the end of this month.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so I so appreciate the opportunity to be on your show.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: I I just love you guys to death and I I love your podcast.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't wait to see what we can do together with the founder's office and um excited for some of the events that I know are forthcoming that you guys are doing.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I will be there, I promise.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: We love and appreciate you too, Betsy.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right, thank you everyone for joining us on today's episode of WTF Women Talk Finance.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we'll see you next time.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was today's episode of WTF.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you laughed, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And send this episode to a friend who might need it.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time on WTF.