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How US Climate Policy Affects Renewable Energy and Ocean Conservation · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:00
  One of the things
• 1:00:01
  that's hard to
• 1:00:01
  put out is the
• 1:00:02
  entrepreneurial
• 1:00:03
  spirit.
• 1:00:04
  The
• 1:00:04
  entrepreneurial
• 1:00:04
  spirit of people
• 1:00:05
  who are getting
• 1:00:06
  into the
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  renewable
• 1:00:06
  energy sector,
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  the industry, who
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  are trying to
• 1:00:09
  push forward
• 1:00:10
  renewable energy
• 1:00:11
  so we can
• 1:00:11
  depend less on
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  fossil fuels and
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  more on
• 1:00:14
  protecting the
• 1:00:15
  environment and
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  still getting our
• 1:00:16
  energy needs.
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  And that's what I
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  was hoping to
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  hear and I did
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  hear in this
• 1:00:22
  interview with
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  Chris Boyer
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  today.
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  We're talking
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  about climate
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  policy in the US,
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  how it's changed
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  over even the
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  last few
• 1:00:28
  months compared
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  to what it was
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  over the last
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  four years and
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  the ups and downs
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  of climate
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  policy in the US
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  in general and
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  how that could
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  affect and slow
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  down
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  renewable energy
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  development
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  in the US.
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  We're going to
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  talk about that
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  on today's
• 1:00:41
  episode of the
• 1:00:42
  How to Protect
• 1:00:42
  the Ocean
• 1:00:43
  podcast.
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  Let's
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  start the show.
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  Hey everybody,
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  welcome back to
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  another exciting
• 1:00:52
  episode of the
• 1:00:53
  How to Protect
• 1:00:53
  the Ocean
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  podcast.
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  I'm your host,
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  Andrew Lewin, and
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  this is the
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  podcast where you
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  find out what's
• 1:00:57
  happening
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  with the ocean,
• 1:00:57
  how you can speak
• 1:00:58
  up for the ocean
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  and what you can
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  do to live for
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  a better ocean by
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  taking action.
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  And when we talk
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  about ocean
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  conservation, we
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  talk about
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  climate change
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  and we talk about
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  climate policy
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  and
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  climate action.
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  And to get
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  action, you need
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  to put forward
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  good policy and
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  you need to
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  communicate that
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  to a lot of
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  people to ensure
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  that that policy
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  gets in place.
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  And today's
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  guest, Chris
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  Moyer, who is the
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  founder and CEO
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  of Echo
• 1:01:21
  Communication
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  Advisors
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  is on the podcast
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  today because he
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  wants to talk to
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  me about US
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  climate policy,
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  which is kind of
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  a weird thing to
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  talk about
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  these days.
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  But I thought it
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  was important for
• 1:01:32
  you to listen to
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  what's happened
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  over the last
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  five months in
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  terms of climate
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  policy
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  under the Trump
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  administration
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  and how that's
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  changed since the
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  Biden
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  administration
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  and of course,
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  the first Trump
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  administration
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  and how that up
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  and down is
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  affecting the way
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  policies
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  developed at a
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  federal level and
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  how energy
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  projects are
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  being put on hold
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  or just being
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  canceled
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  altogether and
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  how that could
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  affect climate
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  policy and just
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  the push for a
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  renewable energy
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  increase over the
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  next 10 years,
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  over the next 20
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  years and just
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  into the future.
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  So we talk a lot
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  about what's
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  happened
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  recently.
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  We talk a lot
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  about the
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  communications
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  around that and
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  how to get people
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  motivated to talk
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  to their local
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  governmental
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  officials and
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  say, hey, you
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  know what?
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  I like these
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  projects.
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  I think this will
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  be good
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  for my area.
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  I want to talk
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  about it because
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  that's the one
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  thing he
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  highlights is not
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  a lot of people
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  come out yet.
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  The fossil fuel
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  industry is out
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  there all the
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  time talking
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  against these
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  projects and it
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  actually works.
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  So we're going to
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  talk all about
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  that on today's
• 1:02:29
  episode.
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  Just before we do
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  that, if you want
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  to take action
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  for the ocean, if
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  you want to take
• 1:02:34
  action for
• 1:02:35
  climate, you can
• 1:02:36
  do so by joining
• 1:02:37
  the undertow.
• 1:02:39
  This is a new
• 1:02:39
  project that I've
• 1:02:40
  been working on.
• 1:02:40
  We're building an
• 1:02:41
  online community
• 1:02:42
  of wave makers
• 1:02:43
  and people and
• 1:02:44
  connectors who
• 1:02:45
  want to
• 1:02:45
  take action.
• 1:02:46
  We're looking for
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  10 million
• 1:02:47
  connections would
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  take $5 million
• 1:02:49
  in action over
• 1:02:51
  the next
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  five years.
• 1:02:53
  It's an ambitious
• 1:02:53
  goal, but we
• 1:02:54
  can't do it
• 1:02:55
  without you.
• 1:02:56
  Join the undertow
• 1:02:57
  by going to speak
• 1:02:57
  up for blue.com
• 1:02:59
  forward slash
• 1:02:59
  join the undertow
• 1:03:01
  that speak up for
• 1:03:02
  blue.com forward
• 1:03:03
  slash join the
• 1:03:04
  undertow.
• 1:03:04
  We are going to
• 1:03:05
  put the links in
• 1:03:06
  the show notes
• 1:03:07
  and in the
• 1:03:07
  description.
• 1:03:08
  If you're
• 1:03:08
  watching this on
• 1:03:09
  YouTube, I want
• 1:03:09
  you to not only
• 1:03:10
  join, but listen
• 1:03:11
  to this interview
• 1:03:12
  to get motivated
• 1:03:12
  to say, hey, you
• 1:03:13
  know what?
• 1:03:14
  I want to help
• 1:03:14
  the ocean. I want
• 1:03:15
  to help
• 1:03:16
  climate change.
• 1:03:16
  Here's Chris
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  Moyer talking
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  about US ocean
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  policy or US
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  climate policy.
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  Of course, that's
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  ocean
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  policy as well.
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  Enjoy the
• 1:03:22
  interview and
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  we'll talk
• 1:03:23
  to you after.
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  Hey, Chris,
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  welcome to the
• 1:03:25
  how to protect
• 1:03:26
  the ocean
• 1:03:26
  podcast.
• 1:03:27
  Are you ready to
• 1:03:27
  talk about
• 1:03:28
  climate policy?
• 1:03:30
  Yes, I am. Great
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  to be
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  here, Andrew.
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  Wonderful. I'm
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  excited
• 1:03:33
  about this.
• 1:03:34
  I'm excited in a
• 1:03:35
  way because I
• 1:03:36
  want to know
• 1:03:37
  information about
• 1:03:37
  what's happening
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  in the US in
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  terms of
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  climate policy.
• 1:03:41
  I'm not excited
• 1:03:42
  in the way I may
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  not like the
• 1:03:43
  answers to some
• 1:03:44
  of these
• 1:03:45
  questions or some
• 1:03:46
  of the questions
• 1:03:46
  that I ask, but
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  I'm so happy to
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  have you on here.
• 1:03:50
  You have your own
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  business. We're
• 1:03:50
  going to talk a
• 1:03:51
  little bit
• 1:03:51
  about that.
• 1:03:52
  We're going to
• 1:03:52
  talk about the
• 1:03:53
  work that you do
• 1:03:54
  and where climate
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  policy is at this
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  point in time.
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  Where has
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  it come?
• 1:03:59
  Where it came
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  from, you know,
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  going out the ups
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  and downs of
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  really any
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  country that we
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  see, but
• 1:04:04
  especially in the
• 1:04:05
  US and especially
• 1:04:05
  these days with
• 1:04:06
  the second Trump
• 1:04:07
  administration
• 1:04:08
  coming in,
• 1:04:09
  causing a lot of
• 1:04:10
  chaos with the global climate policy.
• 1:04:11
  With
• 1:04:11
  environmental
• 1:04:11
  policy,
• 1:04:12
  especially
• 1:04:12
  climate change.
• 1:04:13
  So we're going to
• 1:04:14
  talk a lot
• 1:04:15
  about that.
• 1:04:15
  But before we do,
• 1:04:16
  Chris, why don't
• 1:04:17
  you just let the
• 1:04:17
  audience know who
• 1:04:18
  you are and
• 1:04:19
  what you do?
• 1:04:20
  Sir, and I have
• 1:04:21
  to say, be
• 1:04:22
  careful what you
• 1:04:22
  ask for.
• 1:04:23
  You may not like
• 1:04:26
  the answers that
• 1:04:26
  unfortunately
• 1:04:27
  that's that's
• 1:04:28
  probably where
• 1:04:28
  it's going
• 1:04:28
  to be today.
• 1:04:29
  But but
• 1:04:31
  yeah, I am.
• 1:04:32
  I am about five
• 1:04:33
  years ago.
• 1:04:33
  I founded Echo
• 1:04:34
  Communications
• 1:04:35
  Advisors and we
• 1:04:36
  are a policy
• 1:04:37
  first strategic
• 1:04:38
  communications
• 1:04:39
  firm.
• 1:04:39
  We work
• 1:04:40
  exclusively with
• 1:04:41
  clean energy
• 1:04:41
  companies with
• 1:04:42
  climate tech
• 1:04:43
  startups that are
• 1:04:43
  doing really cool
• 1:04:44
  things to address
• 1:04:45
  climate change in
• 1:04:46
  all various ways.
• 1:04:48
  And we also work
• 1:04:48
  with advocacy
• 1:04:49
  organizations
• 1:04:49
  that are seeking
• 1:04:50
  to shape and make
• 1:04:52
  better climate
• 1:04:52
  policy in the
• 1:04:53
  United States.
• 1:04:55
  Love that. I have
• 1:04:56
  a lot of
• 1:04:57
  questions
• 1:04:57
  about that.
• 1:04:57
  But before I want
• 1:04:58
  to kind of go a
• 1:04:59
  little bit
• 1:04:59
  further back, how
• 1:05:01
  did you get into
• 1:05:02
  communications
• 1:05:03
  and climate?
• 1:05:05
  Where did that
• 1:05:05
  come from?
• 1:05:06
  So the first
• 1:05:07
  thing ever did in
• 1:05:08
  politics and
• 1:05:09
  getting into
• 1:05:09
  policy was a
• 1:05:11
  communications
• 1:05:11
  internship with
• 1:05:13
  former Senator
• 1:05:13
  Ted Kennedy back
• 1:05:16
  coming up on 20
• 1:05:18
  years now.
• 1:05:19
  And that really I
• 1:05:21
  was living in
• 1:05:21
  Boston, going to
• 1:05:22
  school there.
• 1:05:23
  And that really
• 1:05:24
  turned me on to
• 1:05:24
  the idea of going
• 1:05:25
  to Washington,
• 1:05:25
  D.C. and trying
• 1:05:26
  to get a job in
• 1:05:27
  the Senate.
• 1:05:28
  So I moved down
• 1:05:28
  to D.C. about 15
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  years or so ago
• 1:05:31
  and ended up
• 1:05:33
  getting a job
• 1:05:33
  with the United
• 1:05:34
  States senator,
• 1:05:35
  who was then the
• 1:05:36
  majority leader
• 1:05:36
  of the United
• 1:05:37
  States Senate guy
• 1:05:38
  named Harry Reid.
• 1:05:40
  The only catch
• 1:05:41
  was the job was
• 1:05:41
  in Las Vegas and
• 1:05:42
  not in
• 1:05:43
  Washington, D.C.
• 1:05:45
  Because the
• 1:05:45
  Senate, the
• 1:05:45
  senator was
• 1:05:46
  running for
• 1:05:47
  reelection.
• 1:05:47
  So I was 22. I
• 1:05:49
  flew to Las Vegas
• 1:05:50
  to move there my
• 1:05:51
  first time ever.
• 1:05:52
  And I just
• 1:05:52
  remember getting
• 1:05:53
  that rental car,
• 1:05:54
  leaving the
• 1:05:55
  airport and
• 1:05:55
  driving up the
• 1:05:56
  strip with the
• 1:05:57
  flashing lights.
• 1:05:57
  And I was
• 1:05:58
  thinking, what
• 1:05:58
  did I get
• 1:05:59
  myself into?
• 1:06:00
  And but really,
• 1:06:03
  it was an
• 1:06:03
  education and
• 1:06:05
  climate and clean
• 1:06:06
  energy was a big
• 1:06:07
  part of it.
• 1:06:07
  I remember going
• 1:06:08
  to solar arrays
• 1:06:10
  all around the
• 1:06:10
  Las Vegas Valley,
• 1:06:11
  going to
• 1:06:12
  geothermal
• 1:06:12
  companies in
• 1:06:13
  northern Nevada
• 1:06:14
  and just really
• 1:06:16
  getting
• 1:06:16
  understanding of
• 1:06:17
  energy policy and
• 1:06:18
  climate and the
• 1:06:19
  efforts being
• 1:06:19
  done at the
• 1:06:20
  federal level.
• 1:06:21
  This was during
• 1:06:22
  the first Obama
• 1:06:23
  administration.
• 1:06:25
  And from there, I
• 1:06:25
  came back to D.C.
• 1:06:27
  after that
• 1:06:27
  election and
• 1:06:28
  worked for the
• 1:06:30
  senator in the
• 1:06:31
  U.S. Capitol and
• 1:06:33
  just really saw
• 1:06:34
  further how
• 1:06:35
  policy can make a
• 1:06:36
  difference to
• 1:06:36
  advance these
• 1:06:38
  industries, these
• 1:06:38
  nascent
• 1:06:39
  industries, these
• 1:06:39
  newer
• 1:06:40
  technologies that
• 1:06:41
  just need a
• 1:06:41
  little bit of
• 1:06:42
  federal
• 1:06:42
  government
• 1:06:42
  support.
• 1:06:43
  Yeah. And then
• 1:06:44
  they kind of take
• 1:06:45
  off and that's
• 1:06:46
  happened
• 1:06:46
  throughout
• 1:06:47
  history with
• 1:06:48
  government
• 1:06:49
  support and helps
• 1:06:51
  them become
• 1:06:51
  mature industries
• 1:06:52
  that are now
• 1:06:53
  mainstays of our
• 1:06:55
  economy.
• 1:06:56
  You know, this is
• 1:06:57
  it's really
• 1:06:57
  interesting stuff
• 1:06:58
  because at that
• 1:06:58
  time when you
• 1:06:59
  were talking with
• 1:07:00
  all these
• 1:07:00
  different
• 1:07:01
  companies, these
• 1:07:01
  startups, a lot
• 1:07:03
  of these
• 1:07:03
  startups, the
• 1:07:04
  technology was
• 1:07:04
  new as well.
• 1:07:06
  Right. We were a
• 1:07:06
  lot of it was
• 1:07:07
  testing out.
• 1:07:08
  Hence why there
• 1:07:09
  was some
• 1:07:09
  government
• 1:07:09
  government funds
• 1:07:11
  being put in to
• 1:07:12
  test to make sure
• 1:07:12
  that this could
• 1:07:13
  actually work.
• 1:07:14
  It could be
• 1:07:14
  scalable
• 1:07:14
  and so forth.
• 1:07:16
  That is is an
• 1:07:17
  exciting time.
• 1:07:18
  What were your
• 1:07:19
  thoughts?
• 1:07:20
  Like, I guess
• 1:07:20
  maybe what
• 1:07:21
  captured you the
• 1:07:22
  most in terms of
• 1:07:23
  like what
• 1:07:23
  surprised
• 1:07:24
  you the most?
• 1:07:24
  Like, oh, I
• 1:07:25
  didn't know we
• 1:07:25
  could do this.
• 1:07:26
  I didn't even
• 1:07:26
  like think
• 1:07:26
  about this.
• 1:07:27
  Like, what was
• 1:07:27
  the most
• 1:07:28
  interesting tech
• 1:07:29
  that you saw at
• 1:07:30
  that time?
• 1:07:33
  Well, I didn't
• 1:07:34
  see too many back
• 1:07:35
  15 years ago.
• 1:07:36
  I didn't see too
• 1:07:36
  many different
• 1:07:38
  technologies per
• 1:07:39
  se, but I think,
• 1:07:40
  you know, someone
• 1:07:41
  who grew up in
• 1:07:41
  the Northeast, I
• 1:07:42
  knew nothing
• 1:07:42
  about geothermal.
• 1:07:43
  Right.
• 1:07:44
  Because we just
• 1:07:44
  really don't
• 1:07:45
  don't have it in
• 1:07:46
  a in a
• 1:07:46
  serious way.
• 1:07:48
  Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  Traditional geothermal is
• 1:07:49
  limited to the
• 1:07:51
  Western United
• 1:07:52
  States and, you
• 1:07:53
  know, Iceland and
• 1:07:54
  other parts of
• 1:07:55
  the world, but
• 1:07:55
  not certainly
• 1:07:56
  where I grew up.
• 1:07:57
  And so learning
• 1:07:58
  about that
• 1:07:58
  technology,
• 1:07:59
  frankly, was eye opening.
• 1:08:01
  And now there's
• 1:08:01
  all sorts of
• 1:08:02
  advanced
• 1:08:02
  geothermal
• 1:08:03
  technology and
• 1:08:04
  really cool stuff
• 1:08:05
  where you're not
• 1:08:06
  limited.
• 1:08:06
  It can, you know,
• 1:08:07
  it's on the path
• 1:08:08
  to being able to
• 1:08:09
  you can have
• 1:08:10
  geothermal
• 1:08:10
  anywhere because
• 1:08:11
  if you go deep
• 1:08:12
  enough, you will
• 1:08:13
  get heat.
• 1:08:15
  It's just it's
• 1:08:15
  just it can be
• 1:08:16
  really expensive
• 1:08:17
  to to go the
• 1:08:18
  deeper you go.
• 1:08:19
  And so bring down
• 1:08:20
  the cost curve to
• 1:08:21
  make geothermal a
• 1:08:22
  part of the clean
• 1:08:23
  energy transition
• 1:08:24
  and the energy
• 1:08:25
  mix that powers
• 1:08:26
  all the energy
• 1:08:27
  needs
• 1:08:27
  that we have.
• 1:08:29
  So so that was
• 1:08:30
  interesting
• 1:08:30
  to me.
• 1:08:30
  I also think, you
• 1:08:31
  know, 15 years
• 1:08:32
  ago, Tesla was a
• 1:08:33
  struggling
• 1:08:33
  company.
• 1:08:34
  Yeah.
• 1:08:35
  And they they got
• 1:08:36
  funding
• 1:08:37
  from the U.S.
• 1:08:38
  government, from
• 1:08:39
  the
• 1:08:39
  Department of Energy.
• 1:08:40
  And that was a
• 1:08:41
  really critical
• 1:08:41
  source of help
• 1:08:44
  for that company
• 1:08:44
  to that.
• 1:08:46
  Who knows where
• 1:08:46
  they'd be if it
• 1:08:47
  wasn't for that
• 1:08:48
  support.
• 1:08:48
  So, you know,
• 1:08:49
  that's relevant
• 1:08:50
  to some of the
• 1:08:50
  discussions we'll
• 1:08:51
  get into in a
• 1:08:52
  moment about
• 1:08:52
  federal policy
• 1:08:53
  and the role of
• 1:08:54
  federal
• 1:08:54
  government in
• 1:08:55
  supporting
• 1:08:56
  different sectors
• 1:08:57
  of the energy
• 1:08:57
  industry.
• 1:08:58
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:09:00
  So what, like,
• 1:09:00
  you know, during
• 1:09:01
  this time when
• 1:09:02
  you're with the
• 1:09:02
  senator and you
• 1:09:03
  probably moved
• 1:09:03
  into different
• 1:09:04
  positions within
• 1:09:05
  within politics.
• 1:09:07
  But then, you
• 1:09:07
  know, obviously,
• 1:09:07
  communication is
• 1:09:08
  a big part of
• 1:09:09
  your role within
• 1:09:10
  that that time.
• 1:09:12
  At what point did
• 1:09:13
  you say, OK,
• 1:09:14
  like, did you get
• 1:09:15
  the idea, you
• 1:09:16
  know, having a
• 1:09:17
  consulting firm
• 1:09:17
  or a
• 1:09:18
  communications
• 1:09:19
  firm where you,
• 1:09:21
  you know,
• 1:09:22
  partnered with
• 1:09:23
  these companies
• 1:09:24
  or work for these
• 1:09:24
  companies as well
• 1:09:25
  as advocacy
• 1:09:26
  groups to
• 1:09:27
  say, hey,
• 1:09:27
  I want to push
• 1:09:28
  this, you know,
• 1:09:29
  they need a
• 1:09:30
  little bit
• 1:09:30
  more help.
• 1:09:31
  They need to. Was
• 1:09:31
  it because they
• 1:09:32
  needed more help?
• 1:09:32
  Was it they
• 1:09:33
  needed to clarify
• 1:09:34
  their message?
• 1:09:34
  What pushed you
• 1:09:35
  towards starting
• 1:09:36
  this company a
• 1:09:38
  few years ago?
• 1:09:39
  Yeah, so
• 1:09:39
  you're right.
• 1:09:40
  Like I did other
• 1:09:41
  campaigns.
• 1:09:42
  I worked on
• 1:09:43
  presidential
• 1:09:43
  campaigns and
• 1:09:44
  Senate and
• 1:09:45
  gubernatorial.
• 1:09:46
  And I also have
• 1:09:48
  done some work
• 1:09:49
  with state
• 1:09:49
  attorneys
• 1:09:49
  general, which
• 1:09:51
  they're the top
• 1:09:52
  law enforcement
• 1:09:53
  officer in
• 1:09:54
  each state.
• 1:09:54
  And they play,
• 1:09:56
  you know,
• 1:09:56
  especially during
• 1:09:56
  the first Trump
• 1:09:57
  administration.
• 1:09:58
  This is what I
• 1:09:58
  was working with
• 1:09:59
  this group that
• 1:10:00
  was coordinating
• 1:10:01
  a lot of the
• 1:10:01
  efforts that was
• 1:10:02
  really they were
• 1:10:03
  filing lawsuits
• 1:10:04
  left and right.
• 1:10:05
  Not because
• 1:10:06
  they're
• 1:10:06
  frivolous, but
• 1:10:06
  there was so much
• 1:10:07
  to go after from
• 1:10:08
  the federal
• 1:10:08
  government.
• 1:10:09
  So they were
• 1:10:09
  they're trying to
• 1:10:10
  stop rollbacks of
• 1:10:11
  really important
• 1:10:11
  regulations and
• 1:10:12
  policies on the
• 1:10:14
  environment, on
• 1:10:14
  energy, on
• 1:10:15
  climate.
• 1:10:18
  And so that was a
• 1:10:18
  great insight
• 1:10:19
  into kind of the,
• 1:10:21
  you know, they
• 1:10:21
  were the last
• 1:10:22
  line of defense
• 1:10:23
  at that point.
• 1:10:24
  And so, you know,
• 1:10:26
  when I started my
• 1:10:27
  firm, I, you
• 1:10:28
  know,
• 1:10:29
  communications
• 1:10:29
  and messaging can
• 1:10:31
  really make the
• 1:10:31
  difference
• 1:10:31
  between
• 1:10:32
  successful policy
• 1:10:33
  or successful
• 1:10:34
  grants funding
• 1:10:35
  from the
• 1:10:36
  government or
• 1:10:36
  another entity.
• 1:10:38
  How you frame and
• 1:10:39
  talk about things
• 1:10:39
  can really make
• 1:10:40
  or break success
• 1:10:41
  that you have as
• 1:10:42
  a business.
• 1:10:43
  And, you know, we
• 1:10:44
  need these
• 1:10:44
  businesses to be
• 1:10:44
  successful for
• 1:10:45
  the clean energy
• 1:10:46
  transition.
• 1:10:47
  So the
• 1:10:48
  communications
• 1:10:48
  piece is really
• 1:10:49
  important.
• 1:10:50
  You know, when
• 1:10:50
  people think
• 1:10:51
  about
• 1:10:51
  lobbying as well.
• 1:10:53
  It's not just
• 1:10:53
  like the old
• 1:10:54
  fashioned shoe
• 1:10:54
  leather lobbying
• 1:10:55
  that you go meet
• 1:10:57
  with the senator
• 1:10:57
  and then they're
• 1:10:58
  going to
• 1:10:59
  hopefully do what
• 1:11:00
  you want
• 1:11:00
  them to do.
• 1:11:01
  Communications
• 1:11:02
  has become a
• 1:11:03
  greater part of
• 1:11:04
  that overall
• 1:11:04
  strategy.
• 1:11:05
  You have to be
• 1:11:06
  attuned to what
• 1:11:08
  are the outlets,
• 1:11:08
  the news outlets
• 1:11:09
  they're consuming
• 1:11:09
  back in the home
• 1:11:10
  state or their
• 1:11:11
  home district.
• 1:11:12
  How do you find
• 1:11:13
  the right
• 1:11:13
  messengers and
• 1:11:14
  get them to give,
• 1:11:15
  you know, share
• 1:11:16
  the right message
• 1:11:17
  at the right time
• 1:11:18
  so they can have
• 1:11:18
  the maximum
• 1:11:19
  influence.
• 1:11:20
  And that takes a
• 1:11:21
  lot of strategy
• 1:11:22
  and
• 1:11:22
  thoughtfulness.
• 1:11:23
  And so that's how
• 1:11:24
  we work with a
• 1:11:24
  lot of our
• 1:11:25
  clients to help
• 1:11:26
  them, you know,
• 1:11:27
  get better policy
• 1:11:28
  so that they can
• 1:11:29
  grow and be
• 1:11:30
  successful and
• 1:11:30
  contribute to the
• 1:11:31
  energy
• 1:11:32
  transition.
• 1:11:35
  For from a policy
• 1:11:36
  perspective and
• 1:11:37
  clean energy.
• 1:11:39
  What are the
• 1:11:40
  biggest
• 1:11:40
  challenges over
• 1:11:42
  the last like 10
• 1:11:43
  years for that
• 1:11:44
  for clean energy
• 1:11:46
  to move forward
• 1:11:47
  to scale up in
• 1:11:49
  the face of
• 1:11:49
  policy like what
• 1:11:50
  like was there a
• 1:11:51
  particular policy
• 1:11:51
  that really
• 1:11:52
  allowed them to
• 1:11:52
  happen or was a
• 1:11:53
  particular policy
• 1:11:54
  that has really
• 1:11:55
  challenged them.
• 1:11:56
  Let's say before
• 1:11:56
  this
• 1:11:57
  administration
• 1:11:57
  that came in.
• 1:11:59
  Well, it's it's
• 1:11:59
  pretty clear in
• 1:12:00
  2022 the most
• 1:12:02
  significant law
• 1:12:03
  ever passed in
• 1:12:04
  the United States
• 1:12:04
  on climate and
• 1:12:05
  clean energy was
• 1:12:06
  called the
• 1:12:07
  inflation
• 1:12:07
  reduction act.
• 1:12:08
  And that is
• 1:12:10
  really that was
• 1:12:11
  really a law that
• 1:12:12
  set industrial
• 1:12:13
  policy for the
• 1:12:13
  United States in
• 1:12:14
  a way that it
• 1:12:14
  never had before.
• 1:12:16
  And it provided a
• 1:12:17
  number of tax
• 1:12:17
  credits.
• 1:12:18
  It provided
• 1:12:19
  something called
• 1:12:20
  transferability
• 1:12:21
  that helps with
• 1:12:22
  smaller companies
• 1:12:23
  that are growing
• 1:12:24
  and bigger.
• 1:12:24
  You know, it's a
• 1:12:25
  great,
• 1:12:26
  helpful system.
• 1:12:28
  It's it brought
• 1:12:29
  manufacturing
• 1:12:30
  back to the
• 1:12:30
  United States.
• 1:12:31
  It's it provided
• 1:12:33
  more secure
• 1:12:33
  supply chains
• 1:12:34
  back in the
• 1:12:35
  United States,
• 1:12:35
  not being reliant
• 1:12:36
  on on other
• 1:12:37
  countries,
• 1:12:37
  especially, you
• 1:12:39
  know, are more
• 1:12:41
  adversarial
• 1:12:42
  countries.
• 1:12:43
  And I don't
• 1:12:43
  include Canada in
• 1:12:44
  that, to
• 1:12:44
  be clear.
• 1:12:47
  Thank you.
• 1:12:49
  But this was this
• 1:12:52
  was the policy
• 1:12:52
  set forth back
• 1:12:54
  in, you know, it
• 1:12:55
  was passed in
• 1:12:55
  August of 2022.
• 1:12:56
  So we're coming
• 1:12:57
  up on
• 1:12:57
  three years.
• 1:12:59
  And, you know,
• 1:12:59
  you speak to the
• 1:13:00
  challenge, making
• 1:13:01
  that resonate
• 1:13:02
  with voters
• 1:13:02
  across the
• 1:13:03
  country before a
• 1:13:04
  lot of the
• 1:13:05
  benefits
• 1:13:05
  became clear.
• 1:13:06
  You know, there
• 1:13:07
  are jobs that are
• 1:13:07
  being created
• 1:13:08
  right now.
• 1:13:09
  There are
• 1:13:09
  factories
• 1:13:09
  being built.
• 1:13:10
  There are there's
• 1:13:11
  tax revenue being
• 1:13:12
  generated in
• 1:13:13
  rural parts of
• 1:13:14
  this country that
• 1:13:15
  haven't had major
• 1:13:16
  industry in
• 1:13:17
  decades.
• 1:13:18
  And, you know,
• 1:13:20
  because of the
• 1:13:20
  way the election
• 1:13:21
  went in in
• 1:13:23
  November, all of
• 1:13:25
  that is at risk
• 1:13:25
  right now.
• 1:13:26
  Which is
• 1:13:27
  interesting
• 1:13:27
  because I think,
• 1:13:28
  you know, the
• 1:13:29
  inflation act
• 1:13:30
  brought in all of
• 1:13:31
  that and allowed
• 1:13:32
  for these supply
• 1:13:33
  chains to come to
• 1:13:34
  the US allowed
• 1:13:34
  for manufacturing
• 1:13:35
  to come
• 1:13:36
  to the US.
• 1:13:37
  Yet this
• 1:13:38
  administration is
• 1:13:39
  talking about how
• 1:13:39
  tariffs are going
• 1:13:40
  to bring all of
• 1:13:41
  that as a scare
• 1:13:42
  tactic to
• 1:13:42
  everybody to
• 1:13:44
  doing that, which
• 1:13:44
  is kind of funny
• 1:13:45
  because that all
• 1:13:45
  went on.
• 1:13:46
  That messaging
• 1:13:46
  didn't get out.
• 1:13:47
  I wish I wish
• 1:13:49
  more more
• 1:13:49
  organizations and
• 1:13:51
  political
• 1:13:51
  parties.
• 1:13:52
  Contact you guys
• 1:13:54
  to kind of
• 1:13:55
  highlight that
• 1:13:56
  because, you
• 1:13:57
  know, it feels as
• 1:13:58
  though we would
• 1:13:59
  have been in a
• 1:13:59
  different
• 1:14:00
  position because
• 1:14:00
  obviously
• 1:14:01
  messaging and
• 1:14:02
  communications,
• 1:14:03
  as you know, is
• 1:14:03
  very important.
• 1:14:05
  And, you know,
• 1:14:05
  there's a big
• 1:14:06
  difference in the
• 1:14:07
  messaging, you
• 1:14:09
  know, for this
• 1:14:09
  this last
• 1:14:10
  election, which
• 1:14:10
  won't get into
• 1:14:11
  too much because
• 1:14:12
  I don't want to.
• 1:14:12
  I want to focus
• 1:14:13
  on
• 1:14:13
  climate policy.
• 1:14:14
  But, you know,
• 1:14:15
  from your
• 1:14:15
  perspective as as
• 1:14:16
  as a
• 1:14:17
  communications
• 1:14:17
  person,
• 1:14:18
  especially when
• 1:14:18
  it comes to clean
• 1:14:20
  energy,
• 1:14:20
  especially when
• 1:14:21
  it comes to
• 1:14:21
  making sure that
• 1:14:22
  the right policy
• 1:14:23
  get in place and
• 1:14:23
  and working
• 1:14:24
  towards those
• 1:14:24
  policies, it
• 1:14:25
  becomes a really
• 1:14:27
  it must become a
• 1:14:27
  real source spot
• 1:14:28
  for you to see
• 1:14:30
  the wrong
• 1:14:31
  information get
• 1:14:31
  out and people
• 1:14:32
  believing it and
• 1:14:33
  not picking it up
• 1:14:34
  when it's right
• 1:14:35
  right there in
• 1:14:36
  front of them.
• 1:14:37
  Like what
• 1:14:37
  what is that?
• 1:14:38
  Like,
• 1:14:38
  where did that?
• 1:14:40
  How come that
• 1:14:41
  always
• 1:14:41
  gets buried?
• 1:14:43
  Climate and
• 1:14:44
  clean energy.
• 1:14:46
  Yeah.
• 1:14:47
  Yeah.
• 1:14:47
  Well, it's just
• 1:14:48
  it's very hard to
• 1:14:49
  to break through,
• 1:14:52
  especially in a
• 1:14:53
  campaign against
• 1:14:54
  Donald Trump,
• 1:14:56
  who, you know,
• 1:14:58
  love him or hate
• 1:14:58
  him. He knows how
• 1:14:59
  to get attention.
• 1:15:01
  Yeah.
• 1:15:01
  And attention is
• 1:15:02
  current currency
• 1:15:03
  in this day and
• 1:15:03
  age or such a
• 1:15:04
  fragmented media
• 1:15:05
  environment and
• 1:15:06
  other
• 1:15:07
  distractions that
• 1:15:08
  are, you know,
• 1:15:09
  everywhere
• 1:15:09
  for people.
• 1:15:10
  And so, you know,
• 1:15:12
  talking about
• 1:15:12
  jobs that are
• 1:15:13
  coming and a
• 1:15:14
  clean energy
• 1:15:15
  economy that is
• 1:15:16
  happening, but
• 1:15:17
  still coming is
• 1:15:20
  it's harder to
• 1:15:22
  break through and get
• 1:15:23
  attention on that.
• 1:15:24
  And and so, you
• 1:15:25
  know, driving
• 1:15:26
  home the real
• 1:15:26
  tangible benefits
• 1:15:28
  of of that
• 1:15:30
  legislation that
• 1:15:30
  I was mentioning,
• 1:15:31
  you know, perhaps
• 1:15:33
  could have been
• 1:15:33
  done a
• 1:15:33
  little bit better.
• 1:15:35
  And, you know,
• 1:15:38
  making sure it
• 1:15:38
  resonates with
• 1:15:39
  people in a way
• 1:15:40
  that they
• 1:15:40
  care about.
• 1:15:41
  And, you know,
• 1:15:41
  too often, I
• 1:15:42
  think bigger
• 1:15:42
  picture here, you
• 1:15:44
  know, climate
• 1:15:44
  change doesn't
• 1:15:45
  feel real.
• 1:15:47
  Right.
• 1:15:47
  People, it feels
• 1:15:47
  like it's often
• 1:15:48
  to the even
• 1:15:49
  though there's
• 1:15:50
  still people who
• 1:15:50
  can't get
• 1:15:51
  insurance anymore
• 1:15:52
  because there's
• 1:15:53
  too much risk or
• 1:15:54
  their premiums
• 1:15:54
  are so high.
• 1:15:55
  And we know about
• 1:15:57
  the storms being
• 1:15:57
  more intense and
• 1:15:58
  more frequent.
• 1:15:59
  But, you know,
• 1:16:01
  that that still
• 1:16:02
  doesn't move the
• 1:16:03
  needle in terms
• 1:16:03
  of public opinion
• 1:16:03
  to the extent
• 1:16:05
  that we
• 1:16:05
  need it to.
• 1:16:07
  And so if you're
• 1:16:07
  talking about the
• 1:16:09
  treacherous
• 1:16:10
  consequences of
• 1:16:11
  half degree
• 1:16:11
  increase in
• 1:16:13
  global
• 1:16:13
  temperature, that
• 1:16:14
  really doesn't
• 1:16:15
  resonate.
• 1:16:15
  It feels so
• 1:16:16
  esoteric
• 1:16:17
  to people.
• 1:16:18
  And so trying to
• 1:16:19
  put it in terms
• 1:16:19
  of this is not
• 1:16:20
  really
• 1:16:21
  climate change.
• 1:16:22
  This is
• 1:16:22
  economics.
• 1:16:23
  It's an industry
• 1:16:24
  that, you know,
• 1:16:26
  it's a good job.
• 1:16:27
  Doesn't matter
• 1:16:28
  what party you
• 1:16:28
  belong to or your
• 1:16:30
  political
• 1:16:30
  beliefs.
• 1:16:31
  And so, you know,
• 1:16:33
  unfortunately, if
• 1:16:34
  we had a few more
• 1:16:35
  years for these
• 1:16:35
  things to mature
• 1:16:36
  and blossom from
• 1:16:37
  the legislation
• 1:16:38
  from the law I
• 1:16:39
  was mentioning,
• 1:16:40
  then it would be
• 1:16:41
  harder to
• 1:16:41
  get rid of it.
• 1:16:42
  But we're at a
• 1:16:43
  point where it's
• 1:16:44
  still not quite
• 1:16:45
  at that moment or
• 1:16:49
  instilled enough
• 1:16:51
  in these
• 1:16:51
  communities yet.
• 1:16:53
  It's really
• 1:16:53
  interesting you
• 1:16:53
  bring that up
• 1:16:54
  too, because, you
• 1:16:55
  know, as you were
• 1:16:55
  mentioning, just
• 1:16:56
  the messaging
• 1:16:56
  around the
• 1:16:57
  benefits from the
• 1:16:59
  Affordable Care
• 1:17:00
  Act or the the
• 1:17:01
  the Inflation
• 1:17:01
  Reduction Act.
• 1:17:03
  We had the same
• 1:17:04
  thing in Canada,
• 1:17:05
  you know, as you
• 1:17:06
  probably heard
• 1:17:06
  the carbon tax,
• 1:17:07
  you know, as soon
• 1:17:08
  as you put in the
• 1:17:08
  word tax, nobody
• 1:17:10
  likes it. It
• 1:17:11
  sucks. Nobody
• 1:17:12
  wants to pay. We
• 1:17:12
  had a
• 1:17:12
  consumer tax.
• 1:17:13
  So everybody who,
• 1:17:14
  you know, paid
• 1:17:16
  for gas or
• 1:17:16
  whatever that
• 1:17:17
  might be, that
• 1:17:18
  another carbon
• 1:17:18
  tax went on top
• 1:17:19
  of that.
• 1:17:20
  And that was like
• 1:17:21
  the federal
• 1:17:21
  policy wasn't
• 1:17:22
  necessarily
• 1:17:22
  provincial
• 1:17:23
  policy.
• 1:17:23
  The province
• 1:17:24
  didn't have a
• 1:17:25
  carbon tax or a
• 1:17:26
  plan for that.
• 1:17:27
  The federal plan
• 1:17:28
  would kick in the
• 1:17:29
  messaging around.
• 1:17:30
  There was a lot
• 1:17:31
  of there were a
• 1:17:31
  lot of benefits
• 1:17:32
  to the
• 1:17:32
  carbon tax for us.
• 1:17:33
  You know, a lot
• 1:17:34
  of people went
• 1:17:34
  over to heat
• 1:17:35
  pumps and a lot
• 1:17:35
  of people moved
• 1:17:36
  over to an
• 1:17:37
  environment like
• 1:17:37
  EVs and so forth.
• 1:17:39
  But it wasn't it
• 1:17:40
  wasn't
• 1:17:41
  communicated
• 1:17:41
  properly by the
• 1:17:42
  federal
• 1:17:42
  government and
• 1:17:43
  they could have
• 1:17:44
  done a
• 1:17:44
  better job.
• 1:17:44
  And maybe they're
• 1:17:45
  waiting for the
• 1:17:45
  provinces to do
• 1:17:46
  it because it's
• 1:17:46
  technically a
• 1:17:47
  problem, a
• 1:17:47
  provincial plan.
• 1:17:48
  But regardless of
• 1:17:49
  what happened, it
• 1:17:50
  got it got
• 1:17:50
  out of hand.
• 1:17:51
  And of course,
• 1:17:51
  the opposition is
• 1:17:52
  just like
• 1:17:53
  ax the tax.
• 1:17:54
  The tax is
• 1:17:54
  causing
• 1:17:55
  inflation.
• 1:17:55
  The tax is
• 1:17:56
  causing all your
• 1:17:57
  problems.
• 1:17:57
  You can't afford
• 1:17:58
  groceries because
• 1:17:59
  of the carbon.
• 1:18:00
  The messaging and
• 1:18:01
  negative just
• 1:18:02
  kind of like what
• 1:18:03
  Trump had done in
• 1:18:04
  the US with
• 1:18:05
  climate change
• 1:18:06
  and so forth.
• 1:18:07
  They're getting
• 1:18:08
  more attention.
• 1:18:09
  The negativity is
• 1:18:09
  bringing more
• 1:18:10
  attention.
• 1:18:11
  And the and the
• 1:18:12
  policy is not
• 1:18:14
  being
• 1:18:14
  communicated
• 1:18:15
  properly.
• 1:18:15
  And the benefits
• 1:18:16
  of those policies
• 1:18:17
  are not getting
• 1:18:17
  communicated
• 1:18:18
  properly, which
• 1:18:19
  is frustrating
• 1:18:19
  for me because I
• 1:18:20
  was kept telling
• 1:18:21
  my mobile
• 1:18:22
  represented.
• 1:18:23
  I'm like, you
• 1:18:23
  guys got to talk
• 1:18:23
  about the
• 1:18:24
  benefits.
• 1:18:24
  Like,
• 1:18:24
  where is it?
• 1:18:25
  Like, it's so
• 1:18:26
  complicated.
• 1:18:26
  Like, why can't
• 1:18:27
  you talk
• 1:18:28
  about it?
• 1:18:29
  But then on the
• 1:18:29
  other hand, like
• 1:18:30
  it when the when
• 1:18:32
  it ended, like we
• 1:18:33
  were in it
• 1:18:33
  for a good.
• 1:18:35
  Almost
• 1:18:36
  nine years.
• 1:18:37
  And there were a
• 1:18:38
  lot of benefits
• 1:18:38
  that still have
• 1:18:39
  come out from it.
• 1:18:42
  But when you when
• 1:18:42
  you mentioned the
• 1:18:43
  word tax or
• 1:18:44
  climate change or
• 1:18:45
  carbon tax,
• 1:18:47
  people are just
• 1:18:47
  like it's
• 1:18:48
  divided, you
• 1:18:49
  know, you either
• 1:18:49
  love it or you
• 1:18:50
  hate it.
• 1:18:50
  It's black
• 1:18:51
  and white.
• 1:18:51
  And that's it.
• 1:18:52
  There's no
• 1:18:52
  gray area.
• 1:18:53
  There's no
• 1:18:53
  meeting in
• 1:18:54
  the middle.
• 1:18:56
  I've talked to
• 1:18:56
  politicians
• 1:18:56
  before, local
• 1:18:57
  politicians, and
• 1:18:58
  they say when
• 1:18:58
  they engage with
• 1:19:00
  their, you know,
• 1:19:01
  communities, they
• 1:19:03
  don't necessarily
• 1:19:03
  use the word
• 1:19:04
  climate change.
• 1:19:05
  They'll use the
• 1:19:06
  words like
• 1:19:06
  flooding or fires
• 1:19:08
  that affect your
• 1:19:09
  homes and things
• 1:19:10
  like that.
• 1:19:11
  Is the messaging
• 1:19:12
  changing from
• 1:19:13
  getting away from
• 1:19:13
  those politically
• 1:19:14
  triggered words
• 1:19:16
  to more of less
• 1:19:18
  you as you
• 1:19:19
  mentioned, bring
• 1:19:19
  it more local,
• 1:19:20
  bring it more
• 1:19:20
  personal and how
• 1:19:22
  it affects you no
• 1:19:23
  insurance, that
• 1:19:24
  kind of stuff.
• 1:19:25
  It absolutely has
• 1:19:26
  changed in the
• 1:19:27
  last several
• 1:19:27
  months here since
• 1:19:28
  the Trump Trump
• 1:19:29
  Trump second term
• 1:19:30
  started.
• 1:19:32
  The main phrase
• 1:19:33
  we're hearing a
• 1:19:34
  lot of from
• 1:19:35
  climate focused
• 1:19:36
  entities is
• 1:19:38
  energy dominance.
• 1:19:39
  And that's that's
• 1:19:41
  a phrase that the
• 1:19:43
  president has
• 1:19:44
  used a lot.
• 1:19:45
  And a lot of
• 1:19:46
  people try to
• 1:19:46
  play into that.
• 1:19:47
  I think things
• 1:19:48
  that you don't
• 1:19:49
  hear anymore are
• 1:19:49
  climate change,
• 1:19:50
  emissions
• 1:19:51
  reduction,
• 1:19:52
  climate justice,
• 1:19:55
  you know, things
• 1:19:56
  that were very
• 1:19:57
  much talked about
• 1:19:58
  in the previous
• 1:19:59
  administration.
• 1:20:01
  But those are
• 1:20:02
  great way to get
• 1:20:03
  your project or
• 1:20:04
  your idea, your
• 1:20:04
  bill just
• 1:20:06
  shelved.
• 1:20:07
  And so I think,
• 1:20:08
  you know, it's a
• 1:20:09
  balancing act.
• 1:20:10
  It is wise to
• 1:20:11
  adapt your
• 1:20:12
  messaging, even
• 1:20:12
  if the work
• 1:20:13
  you're actually
• 1:20:14
  doing isn't
• 1:20:14
  changing, because
• 1:20:15
  at the end of the
• 1:20:16
  day, what do we
• 1:20:16
  care about?
• 1:20:17
  Do we care about
• 1:20:17
  feeling feeling
• 1:20:19
  good about what
• 1:20:20
  we're doing and
• 1:20:21
  saying what we
• 1:20:21
  want to say?
• 1:20:22
  Or do we want to
• 1:20:23
  get do we want to
• 1:20:24
  get the results
• 1:20:24
  that we're trying
• 1:20:25
  to achieve?
• 1:20:26
  And do we have to
• 1:20:26
  maybe change the
• 1:20:27
  path to
• 1:20:28
  get there?
• 1:20:29
  We're not
• 1:20:30
  compromising our
• 1:20:31
  values or what
• 1:20:32
  we're working on,
• 1:20:33
  but it's just,
• 1:20:34
  okay, how do we
• 1:20:34
  be a little more
• 1:20:35
  strategic and
• 1:20:35
  trying to reach
• 1:20:36
  that same outcome
• 1:20:37
  that we're always
• 1:20:38
  been aiming for?
• 1:20:40
  Yeah, I love
• 1:20:40
  that. I think
• 1:20:41
  that's I think
• 1:20:41
  that is a path
• 1:20:42
  forward because
• 1:20:43
  it takes away
• 1:20:44
  from any kind of
• 1:20:45
  like, like I
• 1:20:46
  said, triggering
• 1:20:47
  words or any kind
• 1:20:48
  of strife with
• 1:20:50
  with the audience
• 1:20:50
  and trying to
• 1:20:52
  unite people just
• 1:20:53
  be like, look,
• 1:20:53
  we're all going
• 1:20:53
  through these
• 1:20:54
  problems.
• 1:20:54
  Let's try and
• 1:20:55
  let's try and
• 1:20:56
  figure out a way
• 1:20:56
  around it.
• 1:20:57
  And hopefully
• 1:20:58
  that will that
• 1:20:59
  will help in that
• 1:21:00
  kind of way.
• 1:21:03
  We're in the
• 1:21:03
  second term of
• 1:21:05
  Donald Trump as
• 1:21:07
  president.
• 1:21:08
  I know it's hard
• 1:21:08
  thing to say,
• 1:21:09
  hard thing to
• 1:21:10
  hear, but this is
• 1:21:11
  the second one.
• 1:21:12
  What was the
• 1:21:12
  difference? You
• 1:21:13
  worked in the
• 1:21:13
  first one in a
• 1:21:15
  variety of
• 1:21:15
  different
• 1:21:16
  capacities.
• 1:21:17
  But, you know,
• 1:21:17
  you've you've
• 1:21:18
  been following
• 1:21:18
  climate for a
• 1:21:19
  long time and
• 1:21:20
  climate policy
• 1:21:20
  for a long time.
• 1:21:21
  What's the
• 1:21:22
  difference
• 1:21:22
  between the first
• 1:21:23
  term and the
• 1:21:24
  second term,
• 1:21:25
  given that there
• 1:21:25
  were four years
• 1:21:26
  in between?
• 1:21:28
  And I'm sure you
• 1:21:29
  didn't mean to
• 1:21:29
  imply this, but
• 1:21:30
  just to be
• 1:21:31
  absolutely clear,
• 1:21:31
  did not work in
• 1:21:32
  the first Trump
• 1:21:33
  administration.
• 1:21:33
  Oh, yes. No, my
• 1:21:34
  apologies.
• 1:21:36
  You worked in the
• 1:21:38
  climate industry
• 1:21:38
  like that.
• 1:21:39
  While he was
• 1:21:40
  president. My
• 1:21:41
  apologies.
• 1:21:42
  Was in the
• 1:21:43
  whirlwind. No, I
• 1:21:44
  just I knew
• 1:21:44
  that's not what
• 1:21:45
  you meant, but
• 1:21:45
  I'm sure your
• 1:21:46
  listeners can
• 1:21:47
  discern that that
• 1:21:48
  was not the case.
• 1:21:48
  But I just
• 1:21:49
  appreciate that
• 1:21:50
  crystal crystal
• 1:21:50
  clear some
• 1:21:51
  agree agree.
• 1:21:53
  You know, I think
• 1:21:53
  the first time
• 1:21:54
  felt like nobody
• 1:21:55
  knew what they
• 1:21:55
  were doing in the
• 1:21:56
  Trump
• 1:21:56
  administration.
• 1:21:56
  They had all
• 1:21:57
  these things they
• 1:21:58
  were trying to
• 1:21:58
  do, but they were
• 1:21:59
  very
• 1:21:59
  sloppy about it.
• 1:22:01
  They tried to
• 1:22:02
  they didn't
• 1:22:02
  follow the proper
• 1:22:04
  steps to repeal
• 1:22:05
  regulations, for
• 1:22:06
  example.
• 1:22:07
  And they lost a
• 1:22:07
  lot of lawsuits
• 1:22:08
  and couldn't get
• 1:22:09
  what they wanted
• 1:22:09
  because of that
• 1:22:10
  procedural
• 1:22:11
  concern this
• 1:22:13
  time around.
• 1:22:14
  You know, from
• 1:22:15
  day one, they've
• 1:22:16
  been on
• 1:22:16
  top of it.
• 1:22:17
  They learned from
• 1:22:18
  some of their
• 1:22:18
  mistakes from the
• 1:22:20
  first time.
• 1:22:21
  And, you know, we
• 1:22:22
  experienced just
• 1:22:23
  a period of it
• 1:22:26
  felt I don't know
• 1:22:27
  how long it was.
• 1:22:28
  I try to not
• 1:22:29
  think too much of
• 1:22:30
  that period, but
• 1:22:31
  it was
• 1:22:31
  just chaos.
• 1:22:32
  They were
• 1:22:32
  throwing
• 1:22:33
  everything
• 1:22:33
  against the wall
• 1:22:34
  and they they
• 1:22:36
  were they're
• 1:22:37
  urging course to
• 1:22:38
  tell them to tell
• 1:22:39
  them no.
• 1:22:40
  They were laying
• 1:22:41
  off people. They
• 1:22:42
  were repealing as
• 1:22:43
  much as
• 1:22:43
  they could.
• 1:22:43
  They were doing
• 1:22:44
  as much as they
• 1:22:44
  could with
• 1:22:45
  executive order,
• 1:22:46
  not worrying
• 1:22:47
  about any other
• 1:22:47
  branch of
• 1:22:48
  government.
• 1:22:48
  They they they
• 1:22:50
  had an agenda and
• 1:22:51
  a plan coming in
• 1:22:52
  and they wasted
• 1:22:53
  no time to try to
• 1:22:55
  execute it.
• 1:22:56
  And in some ways,
• 1:22:57
  it's actually
• 1:22:58
  admirable as a as
• 1:22:59
  a use of power
• 1:23:00
  and trying to
• 1:23:01
  achieve what you
• 1:23:01
  want to achieve.
• 1:23:03
  But obviously the
• 1:23:04
  substance of all
• 1:23:05
  these things was
• 1:23:06
  very concerning.
• 1:23:06
  Yeah.
• 1:23:08
  And still is
• 1:23:09
  there's been, you
• 1:23:09
  know, it slowed
• 1:23:10
  down a little bit
• 1:23:11
  because the
• 1:23:12
  courts have put
• 1:23:12
  on some
• 1:23:13
  guardrails up.
• 1:23:14
  Not not entirely,
• 1:23:15
  but some.
• 1:23:17
  And and now, as
• 1:23:18
  the focus has
• 1:23:19
  really shifted
• 1:23:20
  from what the
• 1:23:21
  president can do
• 1:23:22
  on his own to
• 1:23:23
  what he needs
• 1:23:24
  Congress, even
• 1:23:25
  though his party
• 1:23:26
  controls
• 1:23:27
  Congress, there's
• 1:23:28
  still different
• 1:23:29
  ideas on
• 1:23:30
  what to do.
• 1:23:31
  And so that
• 1:23:32
  process is less clean.
• 1:23:32
  And so that takes
• 1:23:34
  a little bit of
• 1:23:34
  time. And we've
• 1:23:36
  gotten to the
• 1:23:37
  point in the
• 1:23:37
  first term here,
• 1:23:39
  sorry, the first
• 1:23:39
  year of the
• 1:23:40
  second term where
• 1:23:41
  they have to hash
• 1:23:42
  out some of these
• 1:23:43
  different ideas
• 1:23:43
  and the details.
• 1:23:44
  You know, the
• 1:23:44
  devil is always
• 1:23:45
  in the details
• 1:23:45
  and they're at
• 1:23:46
  that point.
• 1:23:46
  They're at that
• 1:23:47
  point in
• 1:23:47
  negotiations.
• 1:23:49
  And I don't I
• 1:23:50
  couldn't tell you
• 1:23:51
  that Trump
• 1:23:51
  actually knows
• 1:23:52
  any of the
• 1:23:52
  details.
• 1:23:53
  But he but he
• 1:23:55
  just won. He just wants a bill.
• 1:23:56
  And and so the
• 1:24:00
  you know, his
• 1:24:01
  colleagues, the
• 1:24:02
  Republican
• 1:24:02
  leaders in the in
• 1:24:04
  Congress are
• 1:24:05
  working through
• 1:24:05
  that at
• 1:24:06
  the moment.
• 1:24:06
  So it's been
• 1:24:08
  about five months
• 1:24:09
  now, almost five
• 1:24:10
  months. And
• 1:24:11
  there's been a
• 1:24:12
  lot that's been
• 1:24:12
  done. There's
• 1:24:13
  been a lot that's
• 1:24:14
  been reported on.
• 1:24:15
  But it's it has
• 1:24:18
  been a whirlwind,
• 1:24:19
  but it does feel
• 1:24:19
  like it's slowed
• 1:24:20
  down a little
• 1:24:21
  bit. But it was a
• 1:24:22
  torrent start.
• 1:24:22
  Right. And during
• 1:24:24
  that time, you
• 1:24:26
  know, I know he
• 1:24:26
  he he pulled the
• 1:24:28
  U.S. out of the
• 1:24:29
  Paris Accord, the
• 1:24:31
  climate
• 1:24:31
  change accord.
• 1:24:32
  What else was
• 1:24:34
  done in terms of
• 1:24:35
  climate change
• 1:24:36
  that had a pretty
• 1:24:38
  significant
• 1:24:38
  effect on other
• 1:24:40
  acts that came
• 1:24:41
  through the
• 1:24:42
  inflation
• 1:24:42
  reduction act and
• 1:24:43
  so forth?
• 1:24:44
  Well, the first
• 1:24:45
  one that comes to
• 1:24:45
  mind is he
• 1:24:46
  declared an
• 1:24:47
  energy emergency,
• 1:24:49
  right? Even
• 1:24:49
  though it's not sure what that's based on.
• 1:24:52
  But that gives
• 1:24:54
  him the ability
• 1:24:55
  to do certain
• 1:24:55
  things to prop up
• 1:24:57
  fossil fuels. And
• 1:24:58
  it's it doesn't
• 1:25:01
  really square
• 1:25:03
  that he's on the
• 1:25:04
  one hand saying
• 1:25:05
  it's it's an
• 1:25:06
  energy emergency.
• 1:25:08
  And we need all
• 1:25:09
  energy sources or
• 1:25:10
  we know as much
• 1:25:11
  energy as
• 1:25:11
  possible because
• 1:25:12
  it's emergency.
• 1:25:12
  But then then
• 1:25:14
  he's killing
• 1:25:15
  offshore wind and
• 1:25:17
  projects,
• 1:25:17
  including one
• 1:25:18
  that was fully
• 1:25:19
  permitted and
• 1:25:20
  they were they
• 1:25:21
  were they were
• 1:25:22
  building already
• 1:25:22
  or they just
• 1:25:23
  started that
• 1:25:24
  that's since been
• 1:25:25
  reversed.
• 1:25:26
  But, you know,
• 1:25:29
  he's saying he's
• 1:25:29
  pretty much
• 1:25:30
  mandating for
• 1:25:31
  coal plants to
• 1:25:32
  stay open, even
• 1:25:33
  if they're not
• 1:25:34
  financially
• 1:25:34
  sustainable.
• 1:25:36
  So it's unclear
• 1:25:36
  how exactly that will work.
• 1:25:37
  You know, there's
• 1:25:40
  there's programs
• 1:25:41
  that were part of
• 1:25:42
  the inflation
• 1:25:42
  reduction act,
• 1:25:43
  the bill that I
• 1:25:44
  mentioned from
• 1:25:44
  2022 contracts
• 1:25:46
  that have been
• 1:25:46
  signed with, you
• 1:25:48
  know, there's
• 1:25:48
  this Green Bank
• 1:25:49
  program that a
• 1:25:50
  lot of other
• 1:25:50
  countries have
• 1:25:50
  done
• 1:25:51
  successfully.
• 1:25:52
  It's a way of
• 1:25:53
  lending to allow
• 1:25:54
  some of these
• 1:25:55
  really important
• 1:25:56
  projects to go
• 1:25:56
  forward. And the
• 1:25:59
  last
• 1:25:59
  administration
• 1:25:59
  had put a
• 1:26:01
  significant
• 1:26:01
  amount of federal
• 1:26:02
  dollars to this.
• 1:26:02
  And these
• 1:26:03
  grantees had
• 1:26:04
  signed contracts.
• 1:26:06
  But the Trump
• 1:26:07
  administration
• 1:26:07
  came in and said,
• 1:26:08
  actually, we're
• 1:26:09
  going to we're
• 1:26:09
  canceling that.
• 1:26:11
  And so they're
• 1:26:11
  they're in the
• 1:26:12
  midst of
• 1:26:12
  litigation. And
• 1:26:13
  it's really
• 1:26:13
  slowed down some
• 1:26:14
  of these projects
• 1:26:15
  that had been
• 1:26:16
  announced already
• 1:26:16
  all across the
• 1:26:17
  country.
• 1:26:18
  And, you know, we
• 1:26:20
  don't have time
• 1:26:20
  to go through
• 1:26:21
  every executive
• 1:26:21
  order related to
• 1:26:22
  climate and
• 1:26:23
  energy in this
• 1:26:24
  conversation.
• 1:26:24
  But there's a
• 1:26:26
  long list and
• 1:26:27
  they're they're
• 1:26:29
  not missing any
• 1:26:30
  opportunity to go
• 1:26:31
  after something
• 1:26:32
  that someone in
• 1:26:33
  the
• 1:26:33
  community values.
• 1:26:35
  It's really odd.
• 1:26:37
  I mean, it's it's
• 1:26:38
  it's odd from a
• 1:26:38
  common sense
• 1:26:39
  point of view
• 1:26:40
  when you look at
• 1:26:40
  it from the
• 1:26:41
  outside, if
• 1:26:41
  you're declaring
• 1:26:42
  an emergency, an
• 1:26:43
  energy emergency,
• 1:26:44
  that you're going
• 1:26:45
  to kill off one
• 1:26:46
  form of energy
• 1:26:47
  and prop up
• 1:26:48
  another.
• 1:26:48
  So it's you know,
• 1:26:50
  it's very
• 1:26:50
  hypocritical to
• 1:26:51
  say we're going
• 1:26:52
  to prop up the
• 1:26:52
  fossil fuel side,
• 1:26:53
  but we're going
• 1:26:54
  to kill the green
• 1:26:56
  side, you know,
• 1:26:57
  the renewable
• 1:26:57
  energy side, even
• 1:26:59
  though that was
• 1:26:59
  well on its way.
• 1:27:01
  And maybe some of
• 1:27:02
  those projects
• 1:27:03
  had already
• 1:27:03
  started. Maybe
• 1:27:04
  some of them
• 1:27:04
  haven't. But
• 1:27:05
  that's a very
• 1:27:06
  frustrating fact
• 1:27:07
  of not growing
• 1:27:08
  energy together
• 1:27:09
  and balancing the
• 1:27:11
  two. And at some
• 1:27:12
  point, I mean,
• 1:27:12
  the hope is for the world.
• 1:27:13
  And I know in
• 1:27:15
  Canada, the hope
• 1:27:16
  is to, you know,
• 1:27:17
  right now, you
• 1:27:18
  know, green
• 1:27:19
  energy may be a
• 1:27:20
  little lower than
• 1:27:20
  fossil fuels. But
• 1:27:21
  as that grows, a
• 1:27:22
  fossil fuel will
• 1:27:23
  go down maybe to
• 1:27:24
  like 20 to 30
• 1:27:25
  percent of
• 1:27:26
  total energy.
• 1:27:28
  And I feel like
• 1:27:28
  that's what the
• 1:27:29
  world is trying
• 1:27:29
  to go towards
• 1:27:30
  when we keep
• 1:27:30
  hitting these
• 1:27:31
  balances,
• 1:27:31
  depending on
• 1:27:32
  who's who's in
• 1:27:33
  charge. But it's
• 1:27:34
  really weird when
• 1:27:34
  you know, like
• 1:27:35
  you said, you
• 1:27:36
  declared an
• 1:27:37
  emergent, an emergent, an energy emergency.
• 1:27:38
  And then all of a
• 1:27:40
  sudden, you're
• 1:27:41
  like, well, I'm
• 1:27:41
  going to kill off
• 1:27:41
  one this these
• 1:27:42
  projects that
• 1:27:43
  will help our
• 1:27:44
  energy. And I'm
• 1:27:45
  going to prop up
• 1:27:45
  the other one. It
• 1:27:46
  just goes like it
• 1:27:47
  for to me, it
• 1:27:47
  just looks like,
• 1:27:48
  okay, somebody's
• 1:27:49
  in your back,
• 1:27:49
  like you're in
• 1:27:50
  somebody's
• 1:27:50
  back pocket.
• 1:27:51
  And it's the
• 1:27:52
  fossil fuel
• 1:27:52
  industry. And
• 1:27:53
  they just want
• 1:27:53
  the domination of
• 1:27:55
  of energy, right?
• 1:27:56
  That's right. And
• 1:27:58
  they I mean,
• 1:27:58
  let's look at
• 1:27:59
  EVs, for example,
• 1:28:00
  that was another
• 1:28:00
  thing where
• 1:28:01
  they're there.
• 1:28:03
  They halted the
• 1:28:04
  rollout of the EV
• 1:28:06
  charging stations
• 1:28:07
  all across the
• 1:28:08
  country.
• 1:28:08
  There is there is
• 1:28:09
  money set aside
• 1:28:10
  for that. That's
• 1:28:11
  really critical
• 1:28:12
  for the adoption
• 1:28:13
  of EVs. They're
• 1:28:14
  trying to kill
• 1:28:14
  the $7500 tax
• 1:28:16
  credit for EVs
• 1:28:17
  that, again,
• 1:28:18
  makes some of
• 1:28:19
  these cars more
• 1:28:20
  affordable as we
• 1:28:21
  get, you know,
• 1:28:22
  from a less
• 1:28:22
  mature market
• 1:28:23
  into a more
• 1:28:24
  mature
• 1:28:24
  market for EVs.
• 1:28:25
  Meanwhile, China
• 1:28:26
  is is dominating
• 1:28:28
  that industry
• 1:28:28
  right now with
• 1:28:29
  BYD and and so
• 1:28:33
  there's just a
• 1:28:35
  lot of things
• 1:28:37
  that don't
• 1:28:37
  comport. Let me
• 1:28:38
  give you another
• 1:28:38
  example.
• 1:28:39
  Energy demand is
• 1:28:41
  growing for the
• 1:28:41
  first time in
• 1:28:42
  decades and it's
• 1:28:45
  it's largely due
• 1:28:46
  to
• 1:28:46
  electrification,
• 1:28:47
  including a
• 1:28:47
  vehicle's but
• 1:28:48
  also AI and data
• 1:28:49
  centers. You hear
• 1:28:50
  about that a lot.
• 1:28:50
  Yeah, and Bitcoin
• 1:28:53
  crypto mining.
• 1:28:57
  And and so
• 1:28:57
  there's a ton of
• 1:28:59
  energy demands
• 1:29:00
  that can't it
• 1:29:02
  won't be met.
• 1:29:02
  It's not keeping
• 1:29:03
  up at this point.
• 1:29:04
  And so that's why
• 1:29:05
  you need all the
• 1:29:06
  energy sources.
• 1:29:06
  And so, you know,
• 1:29:09
  the president has
• 1:29:09
  made clear he
• 1:29:10
  wants to win the
• 1:29:10
  AI race, but
• 1:29:11
  you're
• 1:29:12
  undermining that
• 1:29:13
  goal when you're
• 1:29:14
  cutting off.
• 1:29:16
  You're not, you
• 1:29:16
  know, they used
• 1:29:17
  to say all of the
• 1:29:18
  above. Now
• 1:29:19
  they're saying
• 1:29:19
  fossil fuel only
• 1:29:21
  and maybe
• 1:29:22
  nuclear.
• 1:29:23
  Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:29:25
  exactly. And and
• 1:29:26
  I mean, it's
• 1:29:27
  always I mean,
• 1:29:28
  nuclear is always
• 1:29:29
  controversial for
• 1:29:31
  the for the, you
• 1:29:32
  know, a lot of
• 1:29:32
  people. I know
• 1:29:34
  why, you know, we
• 1:29:35
  have nuclear
• 1:29:36
  energy here and
• 1:29:37
  it's
• 1:29:37
  controversial
• 1:29:38
  here. It provides
• 1:29:39
  a lot of energy,
• 1:29:40
  but it's also if
• 1:29:40
  something goes
• 1:29:41
  wrong, we're all
• 1:29:42
  screwed, like for
• 1:29:43
  a long, like
• 1:29:44
  Chernobyl screwed
• 1:29:45
  and and that's a
• 1:29:46
  that's a
• 1:29:47
  big deal.
• 1:29:47
  There's a lot
• 1:29:50
  like even in
• 1:29:51
  these what five
• 1:29:52
  months that the
• 1:29:53
  Trump
• 1:29:53
  administration
• 1:29:54
  has been in power
• 1:29:55
  pretty much carte
• 1:29:56
  blanche of being
• 1:29:57
  able to what
• 1:29:57
  being able to do
• 1:29:58
  what we do. And
• 1:29:58
  as you mentioned,
• 1:29:59
  it's just really
• 1:29:59
  difficult to go
• 1:30:00
  through every
• 1:30:00
  single executive
• 1:30:01
  order that
• 1:30:01
  undermines
• 1:30:02
  anything around
• 1:30:03
  around
• 1:30:04
  climate action.
• 1:30:04
  In the next three
• 1:30:08
  and a half years,
• 1:30:10
  at least, I
• 1:30:10
  guess, what's the
• 1:30:13
  plan? Like, what
• 1:30:14
  are all of like,
• 1:30:15
  you know, clients
• 1:30:16
  and and that you
• 1:30:17
  have and the
• 1:30:18
  industry, the
• 1:30:19
  clean energy
• 1:30:20
  industry. How are
• 1:30:23
  they going to
• 1:30:24
  react to this?
• 1:30:25
  And how are they
• 1:30:25
  going to push
• 1:30:26
  forward to do the
• 1:30:27
  work that they
• 1:30:27
  want to do
• 1:30:28
  without the help
• 1:30:29
  of the federal government? Can they? And what's the plan?
• 1:30:31
  I think there's
• 1:30:34
  you have to look
• 1:30:36
  for what we
• 1:30:36
  advise with our
• 1:30:37
  clients is you
• 1:30:38
  have to find the
• 1:30:39
  small slivers of
• 1:30:40
  opportunity. You
• 1:30:42
  know, there's
• 1:30:42
  just kind of a
• 1:30:43
  reality shock to
• 1:30:47
  the system when
• 1:30:47
  you realize that it's such a change from where we were with the last administration. And so you just have to adjust kind of what the reality and to the new reality. And there are some opportunities. I was talking to a couple of people who are in the
• 1:30:48
  industry. And so, is there a way to make some progress with advanced geothermal make that bigger slice of the energy supply? You know,
• 1:30:49
  you also look to
• 1:30:50
  the states you
• 1:30:50
  want to find
• 1:30:50
  places where you
• 1:30:51
  can make progress
• 1:30:52
  with the new
• 1:30:56
  reality. And so,
• 1:31:02
  you know, I think
• 1:31:06
  that's a really good thing.
• 1:31:22
  But the one
• 1:31:23
  bigger thing that
• 1:31:24
  I would say is
• 1:31:24
  that even with
• 1:31:25
  the success to to
• 1:31:27
  a large extent
• 1:31:28
  with the
• 1:31:28
  legislation from a few years ago, the thing that still held up further deployment of clean energy was permitting challenges. It takes way too long to make progress with the state.
• 1:31:39
  And you have
• 1:31:40
  local
• 1:31:41
  communities, city
• 1:31:43
  councils, town,
• 1:31:44
  you know, county
• 1:31:44
  commissions
• 1:31:45
  voting to kill
• 1:31:47
  these projects
• 1:31:47
  because they have
• 1:31:48
  3 people show up
• 1:31:49
  with oil and gas
• 1:31:50
  talking points about why solar array is bad.
• 1:31:51
  And so there
• 1:31:55
  needs to be more
• 1:31:56
  engagement at a
• 1:31:58
  local level from
• 1:31:59
  from people who
• 1:32:01
  just regular
• 1:32:02
  people in these
• 1:32:02
  communities who
• 1:32:03
  support these
• 1:32:04
  projects because
• 1:32:05
  they understand
• 1:32:05
  the benefits and
• 1:32:06
  not just falling
• 1:32:07
  prey to the
• 1:32:08
  talking points from the oil and gas industry.
• 1:32:08
  But there's an
• 1:32:12
  effort in the federal
• 1:32:13
  government to do
• 1:32:14
  some sort of
• 1:32:15
  permitting reform
• 1:32:16
  that can make
• 1:32:18
  things a little
• 1:32:18
  bit more
• 1:32:18
  efficient. It's
• 1:32:19
  not, you know, it
• 1:32:21
  still protects
• 1:32:21
  the environment
• 1:32:22
  but understands
• 1:32:24
  that there's, you
• 1:32:25
  know, who's going
• 1:32:25
  to invest in a
• 1:32:26
  project that
• 1:32:27
  takes 17 years to actually get it from start to finish.
• 1:32:27
  It's just no one
• 1:32:31
  can see no one
• 1:32:32
  can think that's
• 1:32:33
  a good idea. And
• 1:32:35
  so that's the
• 1:32:36
  last it's kind of
• 1:32:37
  like the last
• 1:32:38
  mile challenge
• 1:32:38
  once you have we
• 1:32:39
  did have good.
• 1:32:40
  It's still in
• 1:32:41
  place. So I won't
• 1:32:42
  say it's gone
• 1:32:43
  yet, but we have
• 1:32:44
  good
• 1:32:44
  policy in place.
• 1:32:46
  And the last step
• 1:32:47
  there is to
• 1:32:47
  actually get it
• 1:32:48
  deployed and up and running and we need that we need it to be in service.
• 1:32:48
  Let me ask you
• 1:32:53
  this because you
• 1:32:54
  we talk a lot
• 1:32:55
  about times
• 1:32:55
  regulation gets
• 1:32:56
  in the way and
• 1:32:57
  and you know
• 1:32:57
  fossil fuel
• 1:32:58
  industries will
• 1:32:59
  talk about
• 1:32:59
  regulation
• 1:32:59
  getting in the
• 1:33:00
  way and then
• 1:33:00
  clean energy as
• 1:33:02
  you mentioned
• 1:33:02
  gets in the way
• 1:33:03
  for it seems for
• 1:33:04
  different
• 1:33:05
  reasons.
• 1:33:05
  So can you
• 1:33:05
  clarify this for
• 1:33:06
  me? So in Canada
• 1:33:07
  anyway, and
• 1:33:08
  probably us, you
• 1:33:09
  know, when fossil
• 1:33:10
  fuels complain
• 1:33:11
  about policy
• 1:33:12
  getting in the
• 1:33:12
  way. It's usually
• 1:33:13
  environmental
• 1:33:14
  policy, right?
• 1:33:15
  It's usually have
• 1:33:16
  to do with drilling in the ocean.
• 1:33:16
  And the
• 1:33:19
  regulations
• 1:33:19
  around that, you
• 1:33:21
  know, drilling on
• 1:33:22
  land and the
• 1:33:23
  regulations
• 1:33:24
  around that coal
• 1:33:25
  burning and so
• 1:33:26
  forth. And the
• 1:33:27
  regulations on
• 1:33:27
  that is the green
• 1:33:29
  energy industry
• 1:33:32
  finding that the
• 1:33:33
  regulations are
• 1:33:34
  the environmental
• 1:33:35
  regulations are also slowing those down.
• 1:33:36
  Well, I think I
• 1:33:39
  think the thing
• 1:33:39
  that slows it
• 1:33:40
  down is if you
• 1:33:41
  have to do four
• 1:33:41
  different
• 1:33:42
  environmental
• 1:33:42
  reviews, it's
• 1:33:43
  like, why can't
• 1:33:44
  these different
• 1:33:44
  layers of
• 1:33:45
  government just
• 1:33:45
  get on the same
• 1:33:46
  page? Maybe you
• 1:33:47
  do maybe do one
• 1:33:48
  environmental
• 1:33:49
  review. I don't
• 1:33:50
  know, make that
• 1:33:50
  thorough.
• 1:33:51
  Right, right.
• 1:33:53
  You know, you
• 1:33:53
  don't want to
• 1:33:53
  disrupt sensitive
• 1:33:55
  habitats. You
• 1:33:55
  don't want it.
• 1:33:56
  You know, you
• 1:33:56
  need to be
• 1:33:57
  mindful of these
• 1:33:58
  things. But
• 1:33:59
  again, doing it in a in a common sense way.
• 1:34:02
  And, you know, it
• 1:34:07
  just has to be
• 1:34:07
  more efficient.
• 1:34:08
  That's frankly,
• 1:34:10
  yeah, comes down
• 1:34:10
  comes down to you
• 1:34:11
  don't need three
• 1:34:12
  agencies doing
• 1:34:12
  their own study.
• 1:34:14
  And that's an
• 1:34:14
  interesting thing
• 1:34:15
  to guys it is it
• 1:34:16
  three agencies of
• 1:34:17
  the same level of
• 1:34:18
  government or is
• 1:34:19
  it three agencies
• 1:34:19
  of different
• 1:34:20
  levels of
• 1:34:20
  government?
• 1:34:21
  Because I assume
• 1:34:21
  if it's different
• 1:34:22
  levels of
• 1:34:22
  government, maybe
• 1:34:24
  those were put
• 1:34:24
  into place
• 1:34:25
  because like one
• 1:34:25
  level was a
• 1:34:27
  different party
• 1:34:28
  and then another
• 1:34:28
  level was a different party and they were worried that
• 1:34:29
  they were going to contradict
• 1:34:32
  each other or
• 1:34:33
  that it was
• 1:34:33
  better to
• 1:34:33
  contradict each
• 1:34:34
  other because one
• 1:34:34
  had more power of
• 1:34:35
  a certain area.
• 1:34:36
  You know how they
• 1:34:37
  play those types
• 1:34:37
  of games? Yeah,
• 1:34:39
  well, sometimes
• 1:34:39
  it's multiple at
• 1:34:40
  the federal level
• 1:34:41
  and sometimes
• 1:34:42
  it's it's it's
• 1:34:44
  multiple the
• 1:34:44
  federal level and
• 1:34:45
  at the state or
• 1:34:47
  yeah, probably
• 1:34:47
  the state level
• 1:34:48
  but so it can be
• 1:34:50
  all of those or
• 1:34:50
  any of those.
• 1:34:51
  Yeah, yeah, it's
• 1:34:52
  funny too because
• 1:34:53
  like one example
• 1:34:54
  from Canada that
• 1:34:54
  comes to mind
• 1:34:55
  there was in the
• 1:34:56
  Georgia Strait
• 1:34:57
  there was
• 1:34:57
  supposed to be a
• 1:34:58
  marine protected area that was supposed to be a marine protected area.
• 1:34:59
  And so it was supposed to be
• 1:34:59
  designated but it
• 1:35:01
  got held up for
• 1:35:01
  years because two
• 1:35:03
  departments of
• 1:35:04
  the federal
• 1:35:05
  government could
• 1:35:05
  not agree on who
• 1:35:07
  owns the rights
• 1:35:08
  to the the the
• 1:35:10
  sediment of at
• 1:35:12
  the bottom of the
• 1:35:12
  ocean and the
• 1:35:13
  water column. So
• 1:35:14
  they didn't agree
• 1:35:15
  on it and but
• 1:35:17
  they were the
• 1:35:17
  same, you know,
• 1:35:18
  government was
• 1:35:18
  the same party
• 1:35:19
  just two
• 1:35:19
  different
• 1:35:20
  departments
• 1:35:20
  couldn't agree on
• 1:35:21
  the same thing
• 1:35:22
  putting in a
• 1:35:22
  marine protected
• 1:35:23
  area because one
• 1:35:24
  owned that one
• 1:35:25
  was responsible
• 1:35:25
  for the sediment
• 1:35:26
  in the bottom and
• 1:35:27
  the other one was
• 1:35:28
  responsible for
• 1:35:28
  the the.
• 1:35:29
  The water column
• 1:35:30
  and I'm sure one
• 1:35:31
  was like, oh, no,
• 1:35:32
  we want to drill
• 1:35:32
  is natural
• 1:35:33
  resource Canada
• 1:35:33
  and it's it. So
• 1:35:34
  this happens a
• 1:35:35
  lot, you know, I
• 1:35:36
  think it's and
• 1:35:36
  you're right. I
• 1:35:37
  think it from a
• 1:35:38
  common sense
• 1:35:38
  point of view
• 1:35:39
  should just be
• 1:35:39
  one environmental
• 1:35:40
  impact
• 1:35:40
  assessment,
• 1:35:41
  whatever they
• 1:35:42
  want to call it,
• 1:35:43
  make it super
• 1:35:44
  thorough, cover
• 1:35:45
  all basis and
• 1:35:46
  that's what it
• 1:35:47
  should be and
• 1:35:47
  never be able to
• 1:35:48
  take it out. You
• 1:35:49
  know what I mean?
• 1:35:50
  I never be able
• 1:35:50
  to remove
• 1:35:51
  it, right?
• 1:35:51
  One of the
• 1:35:52
  important things
• 1:35:53
  and the
• 1:35:53
  discussions there
• 1:35:54
  was almost a deal
• 1:35:55
  on permitting
• 1:35:56
  reform at the end
• 1:35:57
  of the last
• 1:35:57
  Congress. So back
• 1:35:58
  in December and
• 1:36:00
  they couldn't
• 1:36:01
  quite get the
• 1:36:01
  final language
• 1:36:02
  right in time.
• 1:36:03
  But one of the
• 1:36:04
  important things
• 1:36:04
  to include that
• 1:36:05
  include in
• 1:36:06
  permitting reform
• 1:36:06
  is transmission.
• 1:36:08
  And, you know, we
• 1:36:08
  could have all
• 1:36:09
  these projects
• 1:36:09
  built even I
• 1:36:10
  should say the
• 1:36:11
  last I said the
• 1:36:11
  last mile was
• 1:36:12
  getting the bill
• 1:36:13
  last miles
• 1:36:13
  actually getting
• 1:36:14
  them hooked up to
• 1:36:14
  the grid. Right?
• 1:36:15
  You can't. Okay.
• 1:36:17
  If you're stuck
• 1:36:17
  in the in the
• 1:36:18
  queue for years.
• 1:36:20
  And it's
• 1:36:21
  something like
• 1:36:21
  90% of projects
• 1:36:23
  stuck in the
• 1:36:23
  queue or clean
• 1:36:24
  energy projects.
• 1:36:25
  If you can't do
• 1:36:26
  that, then
• 1:36:27
  they're just
• 1:36:28
  sitting there and
• 1:36:29
  they're not
• 1:36:29
  they're not
• 1:36:30
  putting electrons
• 1:36:31
  on the grid and
• 1:36:32
  we need all those
• 1:36:32
  electrons on the
• 1:36:33
  grid and
• 1:36:33
  especially the
• 1:36:34
  clean ones.
• 1:36:35
  Yeah. So if there
• 1:36:38
  is a way to get a
• 1:36:40
  bipartisan
• 1:36:40
  permitting reform
• 1:36:41
  bill that has the
• 1:36:43
  transmission
• 1:36:43
  piece and I think
• 1:36:44
  there could be a
• 1:36:44
  lot of support
• 1:36:45
  for that in
• 1:36:45
  Congress and that
• 1:36:46
  the president
• 1:36:47
  would probably
• 1:36:47
  sign something
• 1:36:48
  with that nature.
• 1:36:50
  Yeah. Now, you
• 1:36:51
  know, we talked a
• 1:36:51
  lot about and
• 1:36:52
  we're focusing a
• 1:36:52
  lot about federal
• 1:36:53
  policy right now,
• 1:36:54
  but some of the
• 1:36:55
  some of the
• 1:36:57
  strategies now is
• 1:36:58
  a lot of
• 1:36:58
  environmental and
• 1:36:59
  advocacy
• 1:36:59
  organizations are
• 1:37:00
  looking at state
• 1:37:01
  level, especially
• 1:37:03
  states who are
• 1:37:03
  looking to
• 1:37:04
  improve their environment, who are looking to improve their environment.
• 1:37:04
  Who are looking
• 1:37:05
  to shore up their
• 1:37:06
  protections and
• 1:37:07
  regulations on
• 1:37:08
  environment. Now,
• 1:37:09
  one example that
• 1:37:09
  I've heard that
• 1:37:10
  was recently that
• 1:37:10
  was really
• 1:37:11
  interesting is
• 1:37:12
  the green energy
• 1:37:13
  industry is
• 1:37:14
  booming in a
• 1:37:15
  Republican
• 1:37:16
  dominated Texas
• 1:37:17
  and they a lot of
• 1:37:19
  them had moved
• 1:37:20
  from California
• 1:37:21
  because of
• 1:37:21
  regulations into
• 1:37:23
  Texas because
• 1:37:25
  there were less
• 1:37:25
  that regulations
• 1:37:26
  to the chagrin of
• 1:37:27
  some Republicans
• 1:37:28
  apparently
• 1:37:28
  because they're
• 1:37:29
  like, wait, hold
• 1:37:30
  on a second.
• 1:37:30
  The green energy
• 1:37:31
  is coming in. We
• 1:37:31
  got to put in
• 1:37:32
  more regulations,
• 1:37:33
  but they kind of
• 1:37:33
  did it to
• 1:37:34
  themselves
• 1:37:34
  because they
• 1:37:35
  wanted energy,
• 1:37:36
  less energy
• 1:37:37
  regulations. And
• 1:37:38
  now there's a
• 1:37:39
  booming industry
• 1:37:39
  in clean energy.
• 1:37:41
  Are there ways
• 1:37:42
  that the clean
• 1:37:44
  energy industry
• 1:37:44
  is looking at
• 1:37:45
  these types of
• 1:37:47
  states that have
• 1:37:48
  less policy to
• 1:37:49
  implement green
• 1:37:49
  energy at the state level?
• 1:37:50
  Well, when you
• 1:37:52
  look at, you
• 1:37:52
  know, it's funny
• 1:37:53
  you mentioned
• 1:37:53
  Texas. They were
• 1:37:54
  they were
• 1:37:55
  debating,
• 1:37:56
  considering some
• 1:37:57
  really bad
• 1:37:58
  legislation that
• 1:37:59
  would have I
• 1:37:59
  think one of them
• 1:38:00
  would have
• 1:38:00
  required that I
• 1:38:03
  think it was 50
• 1:38:03
  percent of new
• 1:38:04
  generation had to
• 1:38:05
  be dispatchable.
• 1:38:06
  So basically had
• 1:38:08
  to be natural gas
• 1:38:09
  or they forced
• 1:38:10
  renewable energy
• 1:38:10
  projects to pay
• 1:38:11
  fees to the gas
• 1:38:12
  company. So
• 1:38:13
  thankfully that
• 1:38:14
  didn't go
• 1:38:14
  through. But, you
• 1:38:16
  know, Texas kind
• 1:38:18
  of does its own
• 1:38:18
  thing and every
• 1:38:19
  sense of every
• 1:38:20
  sense and
• 1:38:22
  certainly their
• 1:38:22
  other own
• 1:38:23
  grid or right.
• 1:38:24
  And and but wind
• 1:38:27
  is thriving their
• 1:38:28
  solar. It's like
• 1:38:29
  a lot of deals
• 1:38:30
  with landowners
• 1:38:31
  that benefit from
• 1:38:32
  from those
• 1:38:33
  projects and they
• 1:38:34
  have some of the
• 1:38:35
  largest some of
• 1:38:40
  the most supply
• 1:38:40
  of energy of
• 1:38:41
  clean energy in
• 1:38:42
  the country.
• 1:38:43
  And so they're
• 1:38:46
  not a surprise
• 1:38:46
  given the
• 1:38:47
  political makeup,
• 1:38:47
  but but yeah,
• 1:38:51
  they're they're
• 1:38:52
  they're
• 1:38:52
  Republican.
• 1:38:52
  There's a lot of
• 1:38:52
  Republican states
• 1:38:53
  that actually do
• 1:38:54
  enjoy wind energy
• 1:38:56
  and it's a
• 1:38:57
  critical part of
• 1:38:58
  their their
• 1:38:59
  energy sources.
• 1:39:01
  Energy makeup
• 1:39:01
  like looking at a
• 1:39:02
  state like Iowa,
• 1:39:04
  very Republican
• 1:39:04
  state, North
• 1:39:06
  Dakota, both
• 1:39:06
  Dakotas.
• 1:39:09
  There's some sort
• 1:39:10
  of chasm between
• 1:39:11
  onshore and
• 1:39:12
  offshore wind,
• 1:39:13
  but it's like I
• 1:39:19
  lost my train of
• 1:39:19
  thought here. No
• 1:39:20
  worries. No
• 1:39:21
  worries.
• 1:39:22
  Well, it's
• 1:39:23
  interesting,
• 1:39:24
  though, you
• 1:39:24
  mentioned
• 1:39:24
  because, you
• 1:39:25
  know, even within
• 1:39:26
  like ocean and
• 1:39:28
  land when like
• 1:39:30
  like I can drive
• 1:39:30
  along the states
• 1:39:31
  and I've driven
• 1:39:32
  in many of the
• 1:39:33
  states and I see
• 1:39:34
  like on like
• 1:39:35
  onshore wind.
• 1:39:35
  I see on land
• 1:39:36
  that you see the
• 1:39:37
  big windmills. We
• 1:39:38
  see it here in in
• 1:39:39
  Ontario because
• 1:39:40
  we have like a
• 1:39:40
  big wind area,
• 1:39:41
  you know,
• 1:39:42
  migratory birds
• 1:39:42
  and so forth.
• 1:39:45
  But offshore wind
• 1:39:46
  seems to get a
• 1:39:47
  lot of flak.
• 1:39:48
  Like, you know,
• 1:39:48
  from some some
• 1:39:51
  environmental
• 1:39:52
  concerns in terms
• 1:39:54
  of of seabirds
• 1:39:55
  and what the what
• 1:39:57
  the environmental
• 1:39:57
  ramifications are
• 1:39:59
  going to be of
• 1:39:59
  having an actual
• 1:40:00
  like physical
• 1:40:01
  body in there in
• 1:40:03
  on the seabed.
• 1:40:04
  But not as much,
• 1:40:06
  you know, as as
• 1:40:07
  like oil and gas
• 1:40:07
  and so forth
• 1:40:08
  because of spills
• 1:40:09
  and and and the
• 1:40:10
  damage. But the
• 1:40:12
  Republicans
• 1:40:13
  lately have been
• 1:40:14
  been like, yeah,
• 1:40:15
  offshore wind is
• 1:40:16
  no good.
• 1:40:16
  Like, even before
• 1:40:17
  Trump got in, a
• 1:40:18
  lot of the
• 1:40:18
  Republicans were
• 1:40:19
  like, no, we need
• 1:40:19
  to get this.
• 1:40:20
  Like, we're
• 1:40:20
  concerned about
• 1:40:21
  the whales all of
• 1:40:22
  a sudden. They're
• 1:40:23
  concerned about
• 1:40:23
  the whales and so forth.
• 1:40:24
  Yet they're, you
• 1:40:26
  know, obviously
• 1:40:26
  the hypocrisy is
• 1:40:27
  crazy, but
• 1:40:28
  they're they're
• 1:40:28
  obviously
• 1:40:29
  concerned about
• 1:40:29
  the whales all of
• 1:40:30
  a sudden. And
• 1:40:31
  that is crazy to
• 1:40:33
  me to have like
• 1:40:34
  that dichotomy
• 1:40:35
  between land and
• 1:40:36
  and offshore.
• 1:40:38
  Where is that
• 1:40:39
  coming from? Why
• 1:40:40
  is it so
• 1:40:40
  worrisome to have
• 1:40:42
  offshore wind for
• 1:40:43
  a lot of people?
• 1:40:43
  You know, I I
• 1:40:46
  hate to simplify
• 1:40:47
  it this much, but
• 1:40:48
  I think it
• 1:40:48
  unfortunately
• 1:40:49
  comes down to the
• 1:40:49
  fact that the
• 1:40:51
  president just
• 1:40:52
  does not like
• 1:40:53
  wind. And I think
• 1:40:55
  the source of
• 1:40:55
  that might have
• 1:40:56
  something to do
• 1:40:56
  with, you know, a
• 1:40:59
  project in and
• 1:41:00
  might even off
• 1:41:00
  the coast of
• 1:41:00
  Scotland that he
• 1:41:01
  was building.
• 1:41:02
  Oh, right. And
• 1:41:04
  there is some
• 1:41:06
  controversy
• 1:41:06
  around maybe some
• 1:41:08
  some wind. One of
• 1:41:09
  his golf courses.
• 1:41:10
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:41:11
  One of his
• 1:41:12
  resource he was
• 1:41:13
  he was building
• 1:41:13
  or I'm not up to
• 1:41:16
  date on all the
• 1:41:17
  details, but
• 1:41:17
  that's been cited
• 1:41:18
  as maybe the
• 1:41:19
  origin of his his
• 1:41:20
  hatred for wind.
• 1:41:22
  And then he goes
• 1:41:22
  on to say things
• 1:41:23
  like it causes
• 1:41:24
  cancer and all
• 1:41:25
  these
• 1:41:25
  absurd claims.
• 1:41:27
  So, you know,
• 1:41:29
  there are some
• 1:41:29
  Republicans in
• 1:41:30
  the, you know, in
• 1:41:31
  Congress that are
• 1:41:32
  supportive of
• 1:41:33
  wind, but it's a
• 1:41:34
  challenging. I
• 1:41:35
  mean, the
• 1:41:36
  toughest place to
• 1:41:37
  be right now is
• 1:41:38
  in the offshore
• 1:41:38
  wind industry in
• 1:41:40
  the
• 1:41:40
  United States.
• 1:41:40
  It's just very
• 1:41:41
  difficult to see
• 1:41:44
  a path forward in
• 1:41:46
  the next few
• 1:41:46
  years. So I feel
• 1:41:49
  for folks dealing
• 1:41:51
  with that
• 1:41:51
  challenge at this
• 1:41:52
  point, because
• 1:41:52
  it's not even
• 1:41:53
  based on logic or
• 1:41:55
  sound policy
• 1:41:57
  considerations.
• 1:41:57
  It's just based
• 1:41:58
  on the
• 1:41:59
  president's
• 1:42:00
  personal dislike
• 1:42:01
  for for
• 1:42:03
  windbills.
• 1:42:04
  So it's it's it's
• 1:42:05
  I'm not sure how
• 1:42:06
  you can move him
• 1:42:07
  from that
• 1:42:08
  position. Right.
• 1:42:10
  All these things
• 1:42:11
  are happening.
• 1:42:13
  You know, the the
• 1:42:13
  changing of the
• 1:42:14
  guard, so to
• 1:42:14
  speak, in terms
• 1:42:15
  of Republican and
• 1:42:16
  Democrat
• 1:42:17
  presidential
• 1:42:17
  races. And now
• 1:42:18
  that we have a
• 1:42:19
  Republican
• 1:42:20
  dominated house,
• 1:42:22
  you know, and,
• 1:42:23
  you know, from
• 1:42:24
  2016 to 2020 as
• 1:42:25
  Republicans and
• 1:42:25
  Democrats, then
• 1:42:26
  the Republicans
• 1:42:27
  again, it slows
• 1:42:29
  down the movement
• 1:42:30
  of clean energy
• 1:42:30
  development.
• 1:42:32
  What are the
• 1:42:33
  consequences of
• 1:42:34
  that for the
• 1:42:34
  future? You know,
• 1:42:36
  like we're
• 1:42:37
  looking at
• 1:42:37
  another four
• 1:42:37
  years of slowing
• 1:42:39
  down, even
• 1:42:39
  halting projects.
• 1:42:42
  Like how how
• 1:42:43
  worrisome is
• 1:42:44
  this? Like how
• 1:42:45
  worry should be
• 1:42:45
  like should the
• 1:42:46
  American citizens
• 1:42:47
  be about, you
• 1:42:49
  know, this
• 1:42:49
  slowdown? Like I
• 1:42:50
  feel it's there's
• 1:42:51
  always going to
• 1:42:52
  be a push and
• 1:42:52
  green energy is
• 1:42:54
  going in
• 1:42:54
  renewable energy
• 1:42:55
  is going to build
• 1:42:55
  no matter what.
• 1:42:57
  This is just
• 1:42:57
  going to slow it
• 1:42:58
  down a little
• 1:42:58
  bit. But what are
• 1:42:59
  the consequences
• 1:43:00
  and what should
• 1:43:01
  should Americans
• 1:43:01
  be
• 1:43:02
  concerned about?
• 1:43:04
  Well, businesses
• 1:43:05
  and project
• 1:43:06
  funders think not
• 1:43:09
  in terms of a
• 1:43:10
  four year
• 1:43:10
  political cycle,
• 1:43:11
  but in a much
• 1:43:12
  longer business
• 1:43:13
  cycle. And
• 1:43:14
  they're going to
• 1:43:15
  build where they
• 1:43:17
  can have
• 1:43:17
  favorable policy
• 1:43:18
  and more
• 1:43:18
  certainty.
• 1:43:19
  And the swinging
• 1:43:20
  back and forth is
• 1:43:22
  politically is
• 1:43:25
  very challenging
• 1:43:25
  to count on
• 1:43:26
  anything. And,
• 1:43:27
  you know, I agree
• 1:43:29
  with you. The
• 1:43:30
  development with
• 1:43:31
  clean energy is
• 1:43:32
  going to
• 1:43:32
  continue. Maybe
• 1:43:33
  not as quickly as
• 1:43:35
  we would like it
• 1:43:35
  to because of
• 1:43:36
  some of the
• 1:43:36
  political
• 1:43:37
  setbacks.
• 1:43:37
  But if it's not
• 1:43:39
  the United
• 1:43:39
  States, they're
• 1:43:40
  going to go to
• 1:43:40
  these these folks
• 1:43:42
  are smart and
• 1:43:43
  they're capable
• 1:43:43
  and they don't
• 1:43:44
  want to sit back.
• 1:43:44
  There's a real
• 1:43:45
  urgency with with
• 1:43:46
  them. And so
• 1:43:47
  they're going to
• 1:43:47
  go to other
• 1:43:47
  countries.
• 1:43:48
  They're going to
• 1:43:48
  go to
• 1:43:49
  maybe Canada.
• 1:43:49
  They're going to
• 1:43:50
  go to places in
• 1:43:51
  Europe. They're
• 1:43:52
  going to go to
• 1:43:52
  places in Asia,
• 1:43:53
  other places
• 1:43:54
  around the world.
• 1:43:55
  They're going to
• 1:43:55
  let them build
• 1:43:56
  and give them
• 1:43:57
  give them the
• 1:43:59
  room to grow.
• 1:44:00
  And it would be
• 1:44:02
  really
• 1:44:02
  unfortunate that
• 1:44:03
  innovation that
• 1:44:04
  historically has
• 1:44:05
  happened to the
• 1:44:06
  United States,
• 1:44:07
  you know, left
• 1:44:08
  left our shores
• 1:44:09
  and went
• 1:44:10
  elsewhere because
• 1:44:11
  it will put the
• 1:44:12
  United States at
• 1:44:13
  a disadvantage.
• 1:44:13
  Again, it doesn't
• 1:44:14
  it doesn't fit
• 1:44:16
  with what the
• 1:44:18
  president says is
• 1:44:18
  his goal is to be
• 1:44:20
  winning all these.
• 1:44:20
  I mentioned the
• 1:44:22
  AI race, but it's
• 1:44:23
  to be winning all
• 1:44:25
  in all these
• 1:44:25
  industries. You
• 1:44:26
  don't want to
• 1:44:27
  seed ground to
• 1:44:29
  China, to other
• 1:44:30
  countries. You
• 1:44:32
  want to be
• 1:44:32
  building that
• 1:44:33
  industry here.
• 1:44:34
  And so it's hard
• 1:44:36
  to square those
• 1:44:37
  those two things.
• 1:44:39
  Yeah, it's
• 1:44:40
  definitely
• 1:44:40
  interesting.
• 1:44:41
  You mentioned
• 1:44:43
  earlier about,
• 1:44:44
  you know,
• 1:44:46
  informing and
• 1:44:47
  getting more
• 1:44:48
  people locally to
• 1:44:49
  speak up for
• 1:44:50
  renewable energy
• 1:44:52
  in their areas,
• 1:44:53
  whether that's at
• 1:44:53
  the state level,
• 1:44:54
  whether that's at
• 1:44:55
  the county level
• 1:44:55
  or even at the local level.
• 1:44:56
  From you, like,
• 1:44:59
  you know, a comms
• 1:45:00
  guy, you know,
• 1:45:01
  having a comms
• 1:45:02
  firm is the
• 1:45:04
  messaging now
• 1:45:04
  targeted at the
• 1:45:06
  general public in
• 1:45:07
  specific areas
• 1:45:08
  where there's
• 1:45:08
  opportunities to
• 1:45:09
  shift the mindset
• 1:45:12
  of the of local
• 1:45:13
  government or
• 1:45:14
  county
• 1:45:14
  governments or
• 1:45:15
  state governments
• 1:45:16
  to say, hey,
• 1:45:17
  look, you know,
• 1:45:18
  people actually want this.
• 1:45:18
  And so it's more
• 1:45:20
  of renewable
• 1:45:21
  energy literacy,
• 1:45:23
  as we would do in
• 1:45:24
  ocean literacy is
• 1:45:25
  like build up
• 1:45:25
  that ocean
• 1:45:26
  literacy so
• 1:45:26
  people understand
• 1:45:27
  what's possible
• 1:45:29
  and how their
• 1:45:29
  communities can
• 1:45:30
  be helped.
• 1:45:31
  I think that's
• 1:45:31
  right, Andrew. I
• 1:45:32
  think there's
• 1:45:33
  there's some
• 1:45:33
  great people out
• 1:45:34
  there doing work
• 1:45:35
  that's very
• 1:45:36
  focused on this
• 1:45:36
  very challenge.
• 1:45:37
  And there's one
• 1:45:38
  group I'll
• 1:45:39
  mention called
• 1:45:41
  Green Light
• 1:45:41
  America, which
• 1:45:42
  has like this
• 1:45:43
  alert system so
• 1:45:45
  they can see
• 1:45:46
  whenever there's
• 1:45:47
  a project on the docket,
• 1:45:47
  being considered
• 1:45:49
  by a local
• 1:45:49
  government and
• 1:45:50
  then they can get
• 1:45:51
  into that
• 1:45:51
  community, talk
• 1:45:52
  to and they have
• 1:45:53
  organizers that
• 1:45:54
  can talk to
• 1:45:54
  people who live
• 1:45:55
  there because the
• 1:45:57
  people, the local
• 1:45:58
  elected officials
• 1:45:58
  don't care about
• 1:45:59
  people coming from
• 1:45:59
  Washington, D.C.
• 1:46:01
  They care about
• 1:46:01
  people in their
• 1:46:02
  community and
• 1:46:03
  speaking in favor
• 1:46:04
  of these projects
• 1:46:05
  and it's kind of
• 1:46:06
  starting to
• 1:46:06
  trying to get
• 1:46:07
  over this this
• 1:46:08
  nimbyism problem
• 1:46:09
  that people don't
• 1:46:10
  want things
• 1:46:10
  built, even if
• 1:46:11
  they in theory
• 1:46:12
  agree with it
• 1:46:13
  would agree with the idea.
• 1:46:13
  And so, you know,
• 1:46:18
  and getting that
• 1:46:18
  messaging right,
• 1:46:19
  talking about all
• 1:46:20
  the benefits and
• 1:46:21
  not just letting
• 1:46:23
  the oil and gas
• 1:46:24
  talking points
• 1:46:25
  win the day
• 1:46:26
  because if one
• 1:46:27
  one person shows
• 1:46:28
  up saying they
• 1:46:29
  don't like the
• 1:46:29
  project and we're
• 1:46:31
  losing by forfeit
• 1:46:32
  because no one
• 1:46:33
  else shows up from our side.
• 1:46:33
  You know, if
• 1:46:36
  you're a local
• 1:46:36
  elected official,
• 1:46:37
  you're going to
• 1:46:37
  listen to the
• 1:46:38
  person who came
• 1:46:38
  and showed up and
• 1:46:39
  there has to be a
• 1:46:40
  counter to that
• 1:46:41
  and hopefully
• 1:46:41
  more than just a
• 1:46:42
  counter but an
• 1:46:44
  overwhelming
• 1:46:44
  sense that we
• 1:46:45
  want this.
• 1:46:46
  And that's the
• 1:46:48
  challenge that we
• 1:46:48
  have to solve for
• 1:46:49
  right now. And
• 1:46:50
  one of the
• 1:46:51
  challenge, one of
• 1:46:51
  the challenges,
• 1:46:52
  there's a lot of
• 1:46:52
  challenges.
• 1:46:53
  Well, and how do
• 1:46:55
  you motivate
• 1:46:55
  people to change
• 1:46:56
  that behavior?
• 1:46:57
  Because, you
• 1:46:57
  know, you get
• 1:46:58
  people in your
• 1:46:58
  local communities
• 1:46:59
  who will complain
• 1:47:00
  about whatever,
• 1:47:01
  right? And even
• 1:47:02
  say like, yeah,
• 1:47:02
  I'd love to see
• 1:47:03
  when you know my
• 1:47:03
  energy, but it's
• 1:47:04
  not going
• 1:47:04
  to happen.
• 1:47:05
  You know, there's
• 1:47:05
  too many things
• 1:47:06
  going about it.
• 1:47:07
  How do you
• 1:47:07
  motivate people
• 1:47:08
  to change
• 1:47:08
  behavior, which
• 1:47:09
  is so hard, like
• 1:47:10
  from what I
• 1:47:10
  learned is to
• 1:47:11
  change people's
• 1:47:12
  behavior around a
• 1:47:12
  specific topic.
• 1:47:13
  But in this case,
• 1:47:14
  to motivate them
• 1:47:15
  to go to a
• 1:47:16
  meeting or go to
• 1:47:17
  a public meeting
• 1:47:18
  to say, Hey,
• 1:47:18
  look, I want
• 1:47:19
  this. We should
• 1:47:21
  be considering
• 1:47:21
  this and talking
• 1:47:22
  to their local
• 1:47:24
  officials. How do
• 1:47:25
  you motivate that
• 1:47:26
  from a comms
• 1:47:27
  perspective?
• 1:47:28
  Well, I'd say
• 1:47:28
  generally
• 1:47:29
  speaking, the
• 1:47:30
  biggest, the most
• 1:47:32
  effective way to
• 1:47:32
  motivate people
• 1:47:33
  is if they feel
• 1:47:34
  like they have
• 1:47:34
  something to
• 1:47:34
  lose. And that's
• 1:47:36
  not always
• 1:47:36
  applicable
• 1:47:37
  here. Right.
• 1:47:38
  But you do have
• 1:47:39
  to put it into
• 1:47:40
  terms that
• 1:47:40
  matter. It's not
• 1:47:41
  big, bigger
• 1:47:42
  picture, helping
• 1:47:43
  climate change.
• 1:47:44
  Some people will
• 1:47:45
  be motivated by
• 1:47:45
  that, which is
• 1:47:46
  great. But a lot
• 1:47:48
  of people need to
• 1:47:48
  know, well, my,
• 1:47:49
  you know, my
• 1:47:50
  electric bill
• 1:47:51
  could go down or,
• 1:47:52
  you know, we're
• 1:47:54
  going to have
• 1:47:54
  cleaner air in
• 1:47:55
  our community for
• 1:47:56
  our kids and for
• 1:47:57
  everybody.
• 1:47:57
  Or, you know, if
• 1:48:01
  we're shutting
• 1:48:01
  down a coal
• 1:48:02
  plants, that's,
• 1:48:03
  that's, you know,
• 1:48:04
  you can kind of
• 1:48:04
  tell, yeah,
• 1:48:05
  pretty tangible.
• 1:48:07
  Yeah. So it is
• 1:48:08
  finding those
• 1:48:09
  tangible benefits
• 1:48:10
  that if the
• 1:48:11
  project doesn't
• 1:48:12
  go through that
• 1:48:13
  they're going to
• 1:48:14
  miss out on.
• 1:48:15
  Yeah, that's
• 1:48:16
  really, really
• 1:48:16
  interesting. What
• 1:48:18
  are some of the
• 1:48:18
  other you
• 1:48:18
  mentioned just
• 1:48:19
  really quickly
• 1:48:19
  that there are so
• 1:48:20
  many challenges.
• 1:48:22
  Can you talk
• 1:48:22
  about like
• 1:48:22
  another major
• 1:48:23
  challenge that
• 1:48:24
  people are that
• 1:48:25
  that we're seeing
• 1:48:25
  with with trying to push people to a new level?
• 1:48:28
  You know, green
• 1:48:29
  energy and
• 1:48:29
  renewable energy
• 1:48:29
  forward. You mean
• 1:48:31
  I have I haven't
• 1:48:31
  given you enough
• 1:48:32
  challenges yet.
• 1:48:33
  You should come
• 1:48:35
  to Washington and
• 1:48:36
  spend a few
• 1:48:36
  days here.
• 1:48:37
  There's lots of
• 1:48:40
  challenges. No,
• 1:48:41
  we've discussed a
• 1:48:42
  lot of is there
• 1:48:42
  anything that the
• 1:48:43
  people should
• 1:48:43
  know about that
• 1:48:44
  they may not,
• 1:48:45
  they may not be
• 1:48:46
  aware of.
• 1:48:46
  You know, there's
• 1:48:48
  there's a lot of
• 1:48:49
  headlines and I
• 1:48:49
  don't I imagine
• 1:48:50
  you all were
• 1:48:51
  seeing these two,
• 1:48:53
  but the firing of
• 1:48:54
  federal staffers.
• 1:48:55
  Yeah, you know,
• 1:48:56
  entire
• 1:48:57
  departments and
• 1:48:57
  agencies for
• 1:48:58
  science out
• 1:48:59
  the window.
• 1:49:00
  We're not even
• 1:49:01
  tracking
• 1:49:01
  greenhouse gas
• 1:49:02
  emissions in the
• 1:49:03
  same way. And if
• 1:49:04
  you can't track
• 1:49:05
  or measure
• 1:49:05
  something, how
• 1:49:06
  are you going to
• 1:49:07
  adjust and do
• 1:49:08
  things
• 1:49:08
  differently?
• 1:49:09
  You know, but
• 1:49:10
  also some of the
• 1:49:11
  areas that like
• 1:49:13
  maybe a
• 1:49:14
  permitting
• 1:49:15
  reform, for
• 1:49:15
  example, you need
• 1:49:17
  federal
• 1:49:17
  government
• 1:49:17
  workers and some
• 1:49:18
  of these agencies
• 1:49:19
  to actually do
• 1:49:20
  that work.
• 1:49:21
  And, you know, we
• 1:49:22
  talk about
• 1:49:23
  speeding things
• 1:49:23
  up. But if you
• 1:49:24
  can't even get
• 1:49:24
  the people to do
• 1:49:25
  the environmental
• 1:49:26
  review because
• 1:49:27
  there's no staff,
• 1:49:28
  it's going to
• 1:49:28
  take longer. So
• 1:49:30
  it just flies in
• 1:49:32
  the face of the
• 1:49:33
  stated goals of
• 1:49:34
  this
• 1:49:34
  administration.
• 1:49:36
  So, yeah, those
• 1:49:40
  are some other
• 1:49:40
  challenges. I
• 1:49:42
  think the biggest
• 1:49:43
  and this is
• 1:49:43
  coming back to
• 1:49:44
  the
• 1:49:44
  communications
• 1:49:45
  world that I
• 1:49:46
  think about quite
• 1:49:47
  a bit. It's just
• 1:49:48
  the
• 1:49:48
  misinformation
• 1:49:49
  and the eco, the
• 1:49:50
  ecosystem for
• 1:49:52
  opponents of what
• 1:49:53
  we're of what we
• 1:49:54
  do is a machine.
• 1:49:56
  And it's very,
• 1:49:58
  very hard to
• 1:49:59
  compete and
• 1:50:00
  counter that. And
• 1:50:01
  so that's
• 1:50:02
  something that I
• 1:50:03
  mean, our team is
• 1:50:04
  always trying to
• 1:50:04
  think about how
• 1:50:05
  do we how do we
• 1:50:06
  push back against
• 1:50:07
  that and make
• 1:50:08
  sure to get the
• 1:50:09
  facts out there?
• 1:50:10
  And so, you know,
• 1:50:12
  too much of what
• 1:50:12
  is decided in
• 1:50:13
  Washington these
• 1:50:14
  days is not about
• 1:50:15
  facts, but just
• 1:50:16
  about pure
• 1:50:17
  politics and
• 1:50:19
  loyalty to one
• 1:50:20
  person and the
• 1:50:23
  the, you know,
• 1:50:24
  the robust
• 1:50:24
  debates about the
• 1:50:27
  benefits and
• 1:50:27
  shortcomings of
• 1:50:29
  certain policies.
• 1:50:30
  It just doesn't
• 1:50:31
  really have the
• 1:50:32
  same impact. It
• 1:50:33
  doesn't really
• 1:50:33
  happen to the
• 1:50:34
  same extent.
• 1:50:36
  For sure. I know
• 1:50:38
  it's a tough time
• 1:50:39
  for climate
• 1:50:39
  policy and
• 1:50:40
  communications.
• 1:50:42
  What is your
• 1:50:43
  hopeful moment
• 1:50:44
  that you have,
• 1:50:46
  you know, in the
• 1:50:46
  next little bit?
• 1:50:47
  Like, what what
• 1:50:48
  do you hope for?
• 1:50:49
  And what is your
• 1:50:50
  sort of light at
• 1:50:50
  the end of the
• 1:50:51
  tunnel in this in
• 1:50:52
  this dark time?
• 1:50:54
  I think I
• 1:50:56
  mentioned all
• 1:50:57
  these challenges.
• 1:50:57
  But when I think
• 1:50:58
  of the the
• 1:50:59
  climate tech
• 1:50:59
  entrepreneurs who
• 1:51:01
  they don't let a
• 1:51:02
  challenge stop
• 1:51:03
  them, like they
• 1:51:04
  are they see a
• 1:51:06
  challenge and
• 1:51:06
  they're inspired
• 1:51:08
  and excited,
• 1:51:08
  trying to figure
• 1:51:09
  out how to
• 1:51:09
  overcome it.
• 1:51:11
  And, you know, if
• 1:51:11
  you look at all
• 1:51:12
  these climate
• 1:51:13
  tech companies,
• 1:51:14
  the the ways
• 1:51:15
  they're trying to
• 1:51:15
  address climate
• 1:51:16
  change, the
• 1:51:17
  it ranges.
• 1:51:18
  It's all over the
• 1:51:19
  map and there's
• 1:51:20
  thousands of
• 1:51:20
  them. And I think
• 1:51:21
  I'm inspired by,
• 1:51:22
  you know, some of
• 1:51:23
  those are going
• 1:51:23
  to end up being
• 1:51:24
  real significant
• 1:51:24
  players in this
• 1:51:25
  in this ecosystem
• 1:51:26
  over the
• 1:51:27
  years to come.
• 1:51:29
  And I just, you
• 1:51:31
  know, they're
• 1:51:31
  going to continue
• 1:51:31
  doing what
• 1:51:32
  they're going to
• 1:51:32
  do, regardless of
• 1:51:33
  what politics in
• 1:51:35
  D.C. is
• 1:51:35
  dictating. Right.
• 1:51:36
  And that, that to
• 1:51:38
  me is where
• 1:51:39
  there's hope and,
• 1:51:41
  you know, they if
• 1:51:42
  they can overcome
• 1:51:43
  this period and
• 1:51:43
  then imagine when
• 1:51:44
  there's actually
• 1:51:45
  favorable
• 1:51:45
  policies in
• 1:51:46
  place, how that
• 1:51:47
  can help
• 1:51:47
  supercharge even
• 1:51:48
  further.
• 1:51:49
  So it's OK. Make
• 1:51:52
  as much progress
• 1:51:52
  as we can in
• 1:51:53
  these next three
• 1:51:54
  and a half years.
• 1:51:55
  Stop as much bad
• 1:51:56
  stuff as we can
• 1:51:57
  in this
• 1:51:58
  time period.
• 1:51:58
  Yeah. And then,
• 1:51:59
  you know, try to,
• 1:52:01
  you know, try to
• 1:52:03
  be in a place
• 1:52:03
  come 2029, which
• 1:52:05
  feels so far from
• 1:52:06
  now, being a
• 1:52:09
  place where we
• 1:52:10
  can actually go
• 1:52:10
  on offense and
• 1:52:12
  make the progress
• 1:52:13
  that I'd say most
• 1:52:15
  people
• 1:52:16
  agree with.
• 1:52:17
  Yeah. No, I love
• 1:52:18
  it. I love it. I
• 1:52:18
  love to end the
• 1:52:19
  interview on
• 1:52:20
  this. Chris,
• 1:52:20
  thank you so much
• 1:52:21
  for that hopeful
• 1:52:23
  moment and to
• 1:52:24
  inform us all
• 1:52:25
  about what's
• 1:52:25
  happening in the
• 1:52:26
  U.S. with
• 1:52:26
  climate policy.
• 1:52:27
  And we appreciate
• 1:52:29
  the work that you
• 1:52:29
  do and all the
• 1:52:30
  all of your
• 1:52:31
  clients do to
• 1:52:32
  kind of continue
• 1:52:33
  to push the
• 1:52:33
  envelope in
• 1:52:34
  making renewable
• 1:52:35
  energy more
• 1:52:36
  accessible, you
• 1:52:37
  know, pushing
• 1:52:38
  policy to make
• 1:52:39
  less regulation
• 1:52:39
  so we can get it
• 1:52:40
  even further down
• 1:52:41
  the road.
• 1:52:42
  Really appreciate
• 1:52:43
  that. Learning a
• 1:52:44
  lot. Love to
• 1:52:44
  invite you back
• 1:52:45
  to talk more.
• 1:52:46
  Hopefully, good,
• 1:52:46
  more good news
• 1:52:47
  later on as we as
• 1:52:48
  we get closer to
• 1:52:49
  2029. But I
• 1:52:50
  definitely
• 1:52:50
  appreciate all
• 1:52:51
  the work you're
• 1:52:51
  doing. Thank you
• 1:52:52
  so much.
• 1:52:53
  Great to be on
• 1:52:53
  with you, Andrew.
• 1:52:54
  Enjoy the
• 1:52:54
  conversation.
• 1:52:55
  Appreciate it.
• 1:52:55
  Thank you, Chris,
• 1:52:56
  for joining us on
• 1:52:57
  today's episode
• 1:52:57
  of the How to
• 1:52:58
  Protect the Ocean
• 1:52:58
  podcast. It was
• 1:52:59
  great to be able
• 1:53:00
  to talk about
• 1:53:00
  U.S. policy, even
• 1:53:01
  though it's a
• 1:53:02
  grim time. It's a
• 1:53:03
  dark time in U.S.
• 1:53:04
  climate policy,
• 1:53:04
  but there's a
• 1:53:05
  light at the end
• 1:53:06
  of the tunnel.
• 1:53:07
  And that's that
• 1:53:07
  entrepreneurial
• 1:53:07
  spirit.
• 1:53:09
  People want
• 1:53:09
  renewable energy.
• 1:53:11
  People have this
• 1:53:11
  mission to bring
• 1:53:12
  renewable energy,
• 1:53:14
  not only to the
• 1:53:14
  U.S., but to the
• 1:53:15
  world. And it's
• 1:53:16
  growing and
• 1:53:16
  growing and
• 1:53:17
  growing, even
• 1:53:18
  though the fossil
• 1:53:18
  fuel industry
• 1:53:19
  doesn't want to
• 1:53:19
  have that
• 1:53:20
  competition.
• 1:53:20
  They're not going
• 1:53:21
  to be able to get
• 1:53:22
  around it.
• 1:53:22
  People want it.
• 1:53:23
  If you look
• 1:53:24
  around your local
• 1:53:25
  town, you look
• 1:53:25
  around your city,
• 1:53:26
  you look around
• 1:53:27
  your state,
• 1:53:28
  you're seeing
• 1:53:28
  more changes
• 1:53:29
  happen for
• 1:53:30
  renewable energy
• 1:53:31
  projects. You're
• 1:53:32
  seeing more EVs.
• 1:53:33
  You're seeing
• 1:53:34
  more hydro
• 1:53:35
  projects. You're
• 1:53:36
  seeing more solar
• 1:53:37
  projects. You're
• 1:53:38
  seeing more wind
• 1:53:39
  projects and even
• 1:53:40
  tidal projects.
• 1:53:41
  If you live along
• 1:53:42
  the coastline,
• 1:53:43
  there's a lot of
• 1:53:43
  projects that are
• 1:53:44
  going on. Not
• 1:53:45
  fast enough.
• 1:53:45
  And a lot of
• 1:53:47
  times the holdup
• 1:53:47
  has nothing to do
• 1:53:48
  with
• 1:53:48
  environmental
• 1:53:49
  problems or
• 1:53:50
  regulations. It
• 1:53:50
  has to do with
• 1:53:51
  other regulations
• 1:53:52
  that are put in
• 1:53:52
  place to slow
• 1:53:53
  down green
• 1:53:53
  energy,
• 1:53:54
  especially even
• 1:53:55
  if you're allowed
• 1:53:56
  to do it and you
• 1:53:56
  have these
• 1:53:57
  Republicans or
• 1:53:57
  you have these
• 1:53:58
  conservatives who
• 1:53:59
  are trying to
• 1:53:59
  halt it for
• 1:53:59
  some reason.
• 1:54:00
  For example,
• 1:54:01
  Donald Trump
• 1:54:02
  calling an energy
• 1:54:03
  emergency yet
• 1:54:04
  canceling energy
• 1:54:05
  projects that
• 1:54:05
  renewable
• 1:54:06
  projects that
• 1:54:06
  will actually
• 1:54:07
  increase energy
• 1:54:08
  production in the
• 1:54:09
  U.S. So there's a
• 1:54:10
  lot of hypocrisy
• 1:54:11
  around it, but it
• 1:54:12
  doesn't get
• 1:54:13
  handled unless
• 1:54:14
  you fight for it,
• 1:54:16
  unless you talk
• 1:54:16
  to your local
• 1:54:17
  representatives,
• 1:54:18
  unless you take
• 1:54:19
  the talking
• 1:54:19
  points and
• 1:54:20
  understand the
• 1:54:21
  talking points
• 1:54:21
  that are coming
• 1:54:22
  from places like
• 1:54:23
  the ECHO
• 1:54:24
  Communication
• 1:54:24
  Advisors at Chris
• 1:54:25
  owns and the
• 1:54:26
  organizations
• 1:54:27
  that are involved
• 1:54:27
  in advocacy
• 1:54:28
  groups that are
• 1:54:28
  involved in
• 1:54:29
  pushing climate policy.
• 1:54:29
  So that we have a
• 1:54:31
  more balanced and
• 1:54:33
  more renewable
• 1:54:34
  energy progress
• 1:54:35
  in climate
• 1:54:37
  policy. So
• 1:54:37
  hopefully we'll
• 1:54:38
  get to there
• 1:54:38
  sometime soon,
• 1:54:39
  but it comes with
• 1:54:40
  you. You know,
• 1:54:41
  you can listen to
• 1:54:42
  these podcasts.
• 1:54:42
  You can talk to
• 1:54:43
  your local
• 1:54:43
  government
• 1:54:44
  officials and you
• 1:54:45
  can join the
• 1:54:46
  undertow at speak
• 1:54:46
  up for blue.com
• 1:54:47
  forward slash
• 1:54:48
  join the
• 1:54:49
  undertow. I'm
• 1:54:49
  going to share
• 1:54:50
  the ways to
• 1:54:51
  connect with
• 1:54:51
  Chris and his
• 1:54:52
  company and to
• 1:54:53
  learn more about
• 1:54:54
  climate policy in the U.S. If you look at the show notes, you'll be able to find that. But don't forget to join the undertow.
• 1:55:03
  I want to thank
• 1:55:03
  you so much for
• 1:55:04
  joining us on
• 1:55:05
  today's episode
• 1:55:05
  of the how to
• 1:55:06
  protect the
• 1:55:06
  podcast. I'm your
• 1:55:07
  host, Andrew
• 1:55:08
  Lewin from the
• 1:55:09
  true North strong
• 1:55:09
  and free. Have a
• 1:55:10
  great day. We'll
• 1:55:10
  talk to you next
• 1:55:11
  time. And happy
• 1:55:12
  conservation.