Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Groomed to Death, The Staged Suicide Murder of Sandra Birchmore

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Groomed to Death, The Staged Suicide Murder of Sandra Birchmore · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Quody Damas with Joseph scott More. When I was eighteen
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: years old, I went to basic training at Fort leonard Wood,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Missouri in the Army. And one of the things that
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: they are just a stickler's about is security of your property.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: And the first day I was there, literally came from
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the reception station, went to our company area. I was
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: in third platoon, believe it or not, Delta five three,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: by the way, I still even remember that they went
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: around and had to stow our duffelbacks where we had
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: been issued everything. And to my great chagrin, as I
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: found out later, I had failed to secure my walllocker
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and I still had yet to unpack my duffel back.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: And as I stood at parade rest on that hot
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: concrete slab out back of the company area, a Cochrane
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: jump boot kicked out the screen covering the window, and
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: a drill sergeant unceremoniously took my duffel bag and threw
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: it out of the third story window. The problem was
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: was that I had a small box of detergent in
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: the top and when it hit the ground there was
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: a large white puff cloud that went everywhere. Guess what
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I had to do I had to wear that Duffel
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: bag containing all of my worldly belongings on my back
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: for four straight days. That includes doing PT I think
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: I lost twenty five pounds in the first week I
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: was there, and my back really really hurt. Guess what
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I never did again, I never left my walllocker unsecured. Well,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the reason I'm telling you that is that the case
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: that we are going to discuss is in fact the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: case that we've discussed previously, but now we have more information,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: and it does involve a duffleback. It involves what the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: police are referring to as a strap from a duffle back,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: something that I'm kind of familiar with. And it also
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: involves what appeared initially to be a suicide and is
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: now a homicide. I'm talking about the murder of Sandra Birchmore.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybacks, Dave. I
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: got to tell you, a duffelbag, even though it's got
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: shoulder straps on, it is not meant to be a backpack.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: It is not designed for that purpose. Is arguably one
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: of the most uncomfortable things. You never can get the
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: weight right. It's always shifting back. It's meant to get
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: from point A to point B and load your stuff
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: onto a bus or get it onto the plane or
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. I guess if you're in the Navy,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: they have sea bags. Of course, Marine Corps has Duffel bags.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: I guess they call them sea bags, and to unload
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: onto a ship. If you're going somewhere other than that,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you're not going up the Appalachian Trail one of these
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: things on your back. If you do, you're probably a
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: masochist because it is painful. The thing about it, though,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: when I began to hear about the nature of this strap,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: which the strap is going to play in, to play
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: into what we know now, I got to thinking about
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: this thing digging into my shoulder and into my shoulder
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: blades all those years ago, and Dave, those bags have
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: not changed much. And you know, as I always say,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I went through basic training when dinosaurs are
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: on the earth. But it's amazing some things in the
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Army just kind of stayed the same. And I was thinking, Wow,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: if they're saying that a strap was used for her
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: to initially, at least as a thought, take her own life,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: this thing is going to leave some serious indication on
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: the surface of her neck. And brother, how many times
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: have we talked about literature strangulations, you know, over the
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: load these many years we've been together.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: It's going to play a major part in this. Now,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: the story of Sandra Birchmore is the story of a
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: twenty three year old young lady who had been manipulated
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: by men from a very early age, as early as
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: nine or ten years old, and these police officers and
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: other people with badges in the area using an explorer post.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: I looked this up, Joe, because when we were talking
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: before the show started, we're like, when did she actually
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: get involved in.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: This explorer post?
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Explorers it's in addition to or beyond scouting. It's part
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: of scouting America. It's part of the boy Scout thing.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: But it's an explorer post. And explorer posts are work driven.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Is a very specific thing, a profession, and in this case,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: it was law enforcement as a career, and it gives
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: young people a chance to learn things about this particular
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: field that you don't learn unless you're there and you're
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: being trained by real working police officers. And that's why
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I had to look it up. Joe and I found
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: out that Sandra Birchmore, she was around the Explorer Post
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: and this is all up in the Boston area. And
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: the reason this has really caught a lot of our
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: attention is because of the case of Karen Reid. Some
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: of the same people in this case were involved in
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: the Karen Reid case. And when you look at Sandra
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Birchmore and at nine and ten years old, somehow wheeling
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: her way into this Explorer post, well, here's how it works.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Joe Explorer is fourteen and up, but if it's an
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Explorer club, it's ten to fourteen. Oh look, so yeah,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And that's how she got in at an early age.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: That's why she was legitimately in the Explorer Club at
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: ten years old. Now, the reason that's important is because
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: we believe that she was targeted that early by men
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: who traded this girl from one to another from the
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: time she was looking up to them as law enforcement professionals,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: men with a badge and a gun upholding justice. These
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: are superheroes to kids that are ten and eleven years old.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: And Sander Birchmore looked at them that way, Joe, and
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: they took advantage.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: And I say, one more thing here, please, that you're
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: alluding to. Now, I don't know, I don't know if
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: this plays into it, but you know, I'm reading over
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: you know, we've got these Canton Police Department reports, you know,
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: in front of us and whatnot, and I was reading
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: over it when she initially kind of dropped in to
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: this environment, Dave. And this is really chilling to me.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: When she initially dropped into this environment. You had alluded
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: to the fact that she was very young. Well, she
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: actually began to participate in something when she's nine years old.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: It was a fourteen week program called a Strengthening Program,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: and Dave, that was for what were noted to be
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: high risk families. Now, just let me throw this out
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: there to you. And you know better than I do,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: because you've counseled a lot of people. Probably some of
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the most vulnerable people that are out there, particularly among
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: the population of kids, are those individuals that are looking,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: they are desperately searching for a father figure, for somebody
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: that can give them security. And Dude, they're willing, unbeknownst
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: to them they're victims here. Yeah, They're willing to trade
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: just about anything for that, just that connectivity. And I
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: think that predators, they're like sharks in the water when
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: blood is you know, when the water's chummed, if you will,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: it just automatically, you know, they begin circling at that point.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: I'm really wondering if that's part of the progression here.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: I believe it is. On this one.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: Sandra Birchmore, when she was found dead in her apartment
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: at twenty three, it was originally ruled a suicide. She
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: was twelve weeks pregnant, ten weeks pregnant, I think ten
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: weeks pregnant. Yeah, she was ten weeks pregnant at the time.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: She knew she was pregnant. She had told her friends,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: and she told the person she thought was the father
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: that she was pregnant. And when I Jod sent some
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: stuff earlier today that I was kind of unaware of
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: the scene. Can you set the scene for us, Joe,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: as to when Sandra Birchmore at twenty three years old
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: and ten weeks pregnant, how she was found and why
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: they believed it was a suicide at first, or how
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: they could not necessarily believe, but how they could write
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: it up as a suicide.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Well, first off, understand that when the police rolled into
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: the scene. This this thing started out as a welfare check.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: And we also have to keep in mind that Sondra
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: was working as a teacher's aide at this point in time.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: So that's, you know, one of the first alarm bells.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Many times it goes off when you're when one of
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: these investigations initiates is you know, they haven't shown up
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: for work. Okay, and buddy, let me tell you something.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: This comes from the husband of a of a retired
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: public school teacher. If Kimmy wasn't at work, they're going
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: to start making phone calls. They're going to reach out.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: You know, they want to know where the teacher is
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: because they have to have somebody to manage classrooms. And
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: God blessed teacher's aides. I tell you what, pair pros.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: They do a job that you couldn't chase me fast
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: enough to give me that job. It is very very
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: hard for very little money. If you think teachers get
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: paid very little, oh, my lord, pair pros get paid
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: even less. But that's the job that she had, and
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: she hasn't shown up for work day, hasn't shown up
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: in a while, and so they contact in house. If
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I'm if I'm not mistaken. They've contacted the SRO, which
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: is the school resource officer. What a shame, you know,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: nowadays we have to have SROs in every school. It
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: seems like because of the danger you know that exists there,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: and you know, it starts, that starts kind of the
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: the dominoes, you know, kind of falling at this point
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: in time. So when they go out on this welfare
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: check at this apartment complex, you know, the first police
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: officer that has eyes on you know, when they roll
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: through the door, they note that the apartment is not
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: well kept. It appears kind of messy, if you will.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: And they're going through and they're checking. When they walk
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: in Dave to her bedroom, into Sandra's bedroom, they find
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: her essentially seated on the floor. She has got a
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: literature which to them. Initially in the initial report it's
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: referred to as a scarf, but it's later found out
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that this is referred to as a strap. Huge difference
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: between the two. And I'll put to you this way,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: based upon what the officer is saying from this initial report,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: she's got evidence of decompositional features here already, yeah, already, Yeah,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: She's she's got significant discoloration, and I would imagine probably
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: with with a ligature around her neck, and this literature
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: is actually secured to the actual handle of the door.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: It's a closet door, and she's seated there. Famously, might
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: remember one of the most high profile suicides in our
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: country involved the same situation, and that's Robin Williams. You know,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: He's found, you know, and secure to a door. Guess
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: who else? I think I think it was one of
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: the Cardane brothers as well. I think that may have
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: been an autoerotic case. But still, it's not like this
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: is something new under the sun and one of the things.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, I was just teaching about this at
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: Jack State we were I even mentioned it in a
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: very recent episode that we we laid down about as
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: fix year old death. Many people are under the impression
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: that in order to hang oneself you have to be
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: totally suspended, and people are shocked when I tell them
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: that a significant number of people that take their own
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: life through a literature suspension, Dave, they're not totally suspended.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: They will sit down with a secured ligature around their neck.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And people will say, well, out in the world do
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: they do this? Because how easy would it be just
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: to push it. It's not like you're suspended in the
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: air and your feet are dangly. Okay, well, I always
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: say that it's taking one's life. Is almost like getting
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: the courage to jump off of a jump off of
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: a cliff into a lake. Sometimes people just do it,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: and when they get to that point, no one really knows.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: When they get to the point and they have a
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: way to manage fest this, they'll do it. And gradually
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: you become absent an oxygen supply to your to your brain,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and you will in fact go to sleep, and not
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: in a good way. Uh. The oxygen supply is shut down.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: The brain is starving, and many times you'll see it's
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: followed by a brief seizure. You'll see the thumbs turn in.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Many times, I've seen some of these suspension hangings where
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: people videotape themselves. You'll see that, but they'll never reach up.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: They'll never reach up to grasp it, to grasp the ligature.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Videotaping.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I've had a number over the course
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: of my career. I've had several people that videotape themselves
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and that, Yeah, I don't get it. But oh, the
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: reason they do it is it's a it has shock
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: value to it. There's well, I'm shocked, I know, we
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: ought to do it in Wow, Yeah, we ala to
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: do it an entire I teach an entire sectional suicide investigation,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: which in and of itself is a very specific discipline
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: because we work in my world, we work more suicides
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: than we do homicides, even though homicide we work all
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: the homicides. Suicides generally outnumber homicides. You just never hear
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: about it, unless, of course it's a kerodine or it's
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Robin Williams or something like that. So people are shocked.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And in Saundra's case, I think that many people are
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: shocked that. You know, well, they should have known something
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: from the beginning. You know's she's not suspended in the air.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Not everybody suspends himself in the air. You don't always
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: get that, And so you know, when people hear that,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: they can't really make sense of it. They don't understand
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: how that actually happens. But it does. You know. The
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: thing about it is with this case, Dave, I think
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: we're initially, and this happens a lot, we're actually being asked,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: do we believe what our line notes are telling us.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: It's a holy smokes, David. I'm not going to say
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: that this is necessarily revelatory because in the Sandra Burchmore case,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: there has been somebody that has been charged. As a
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, I think that charges were set forth
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty four, an arrest was affected. But
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: there's more to this. But I think that it would
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: be really good reflectively for our friends to kind of understand,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: you know, how all this kind of started.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: When we were talking about it was I was remembering
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: when I was prepping it before and the information that
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: we had, you know, and what we have now is
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: even more. I'll give you just to give you guys
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: an idea of why in the nineteen months since this
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: case was first brought to light and first charged with
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Matthew Farwell being charged, the DA says, we've got so
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: much more evidence now and a lot of it goes
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: back to that strap that you began the show talking about,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: that Duffel bag strap. At first, the officer on the
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: scene that saw he actually thought it was like a scarf.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And I asked you about that and
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: you said, well, yeah, he wouldn't have touched her. I
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: mean he would have known she's dead. Don't touch anything, right,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Let me interject real quick, and then I'll let you
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: hop back on it. I just want everybody to know
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: she was not taken down by that police officer, because
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: this is why I think this guy's been trained well,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: because he can see obvious signs of decomposition. But they'd
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: rolled the ambulance out there. I'd say early signs of decomposition.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: From my perspective, he didn't touch her, But they had
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: to have many places, dependent upon the jurisdiction. You have
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to have confirmation from a medical professional to come out
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: to the scene and say specifically that this person is
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: in fact no more, and then they would have backed
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: off and you would be surprised. Dave At even I've
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: had cases with advance decomposition, with hanging cases for whatever reason.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I've had firefighters, police officers, and EMTs break out their
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: spider coat nine flip it out the one they carry
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: in their pocket and cut them down. And that just
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: makes our job doubly hard because there's these very specific
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: measurements we have to take. So in this case, that
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: did not in fact happen, which is and that's a
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: good thing. It is a good thing because you get
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: a relational perspective from a forensic perspective, because the one
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: thing you always check is a distance from the securing
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: knot to on the well rex Hureman reference here the
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: hard point, which in this case would be the door
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: handle to where is secured with the noose. You need that.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: And so if you can get that in real time
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: and take that measurement and photograph it, that's worth gold.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: And if you have a total suspension hand hanging, we
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: do from the knot where it's secured to the heels, okay,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: and then we do from the knot where's the noose
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: is secured on the back of the neck or on
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: the front. I've had them on the front too, to
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the heels, and you get that measurement relationship. Okay. So
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say on you, but
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I just wanted everybody to understand that.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: That was my whole point. I wanted you to be
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: able to explain that because this is something that a
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: lot of us don't understand. Joe, what you have done
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: for your adult life, A lot of us have either
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: followed or reported on. But I've never walked into that
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: situation and in this particular case, I went back and
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: pulled exactly what the office Sir said, and this is
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: what the description the police report. This is the Canon
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: police report on sander Birchmore. And when they got to
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: the house by the call originating as a welfare check
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: or well being check. But Officer Cotard and I entered
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: the dwelling and observed two cats in the apartment and
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: noticed the conditions were cluttered and unkept, and noticed the
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: bedroom door was closed. Officer Cotard opened the door and
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: we observed a young female in a seated position on
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: the floor with a scarf around her neck and tightly
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: affixed to the closet door handle due to the discolorization
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: in skin blue and lividity, and appeared that the female
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: had been there for a long period of time. Sergeant
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Mike Lank, ship supervisor, radioed to secure the scene immediately
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: while en route to the residence. Sergeant Lang directed us
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: to secure the scene in Norfolk County DA's office and
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: notified and advised that they would be responding to the
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: residence next. Sergeant Lank and Detective Jonathan McCourt arrived a
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: short time later, and Officer Brady, Officer Cotard, and I
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: stayed outside the apartment, and Sergeant Lank and Detective McCourt
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: entered the apartment in an attempt to gather information and
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: proper identification of the victim. Now, they rolled the ms
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: as you said they would, and Sergeant Lank requested Canton
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Fire Ems to respond to our location. Firefighter paramedic Daniel
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Whitley arrived and pronounced Sandra Birchmore deceased at eleven forty
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: six am. No life saving measures were taken at that time.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: The reason this is so important to me is you
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: have tried to tell us what happens at a scene,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: but oftentimes it's from the standpoint of what was done wrong,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: you know, because we got a problem with the case,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: and here's where it began. In this case, even though
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: it looked and was reported at as a suicide Joe,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: because of the way it was handled at the very beginning,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: these officers were able the investigation was able to determine
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: hey man, this is not what it appeared to be
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: because of the way they dealt with it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me put this little hook in
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: your brain as well when you're when you're working a
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: so called suicide. From my just this is my perspective.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: This is what I tell my students. I do not
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: work a suicide as a suicide. I literally try to
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: disprove the suicide in my mind. And I'm doing two
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: things at once, trying to disprove the suicide and trying
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: to prove homicide. Because again, I know I'm beating this
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: dead horse. I talk about it a lot. Every death
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: is a homicide until proven otherwise, So it is a
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: process of elimination. Is there anything here that is not
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: ticking the box from me relative to a suicide? Is
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: there anything suspicious here? Are there any other possibilities or
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: probabilities when or what is the probability? Rather, I misspoke
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: there so that it could be something else. David. I
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: got to tell you, brother, when I hear about this
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: case and you had mentioned the O'Keefe case, I refuse
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: to call it by that other person's name. It is
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the O'Keefe case because he's the one that's dead. When
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: you think about no, no, it's not only you. It's
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: just that's the way it works. It's just like Rex
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Hureman we won't hear about the victims. We'll always hear
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: about Hureman. All right, Yeah, So when in this particular case,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: in this particular case, I'm just I'm thinking, were these
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: associations known prior to them stepping onto the scene, because
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: it's that kind of information that can influence your investigation
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: relative to how you're going to handle the scene, who
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: you're going to contact. Because, brother, I had to tell
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: you something. In all of the cases I've ever worked,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: and you're calling it a suicide, I don't ever recall
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: a single suicide I ever worked where the own call
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: district attorney's office was contacted. That's a big reveal for me,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: because when you reach out to a prosecutor's office, if
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: you're in, it feels like something is trying to be
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: sold here, all right, and the prospective buyers ain't buying it.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: So they're like, Okay, well, I think I think this
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: requires a bit more of a of a bit of
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: depth here. We need to explore this a little bit
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: more and kind of lay out all the possibilities. You know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: So I don't know what may have happened, what could
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: explain some of this stuff, what's the history onics here
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: because you know, in the medical legal world, even you know,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: we're going to go if we have someone that's taken
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: their own life, I'm going to go interview the family,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: as painful as it is, and it is very, very painful.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to the family extensively. I want
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: to get history. I want to get psychological history. And granted,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: we've got a young woman who's working as a teacher's aide,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: living in an apartment. She doesn't have another person in
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: her life that is helping her get by, and she's
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: ten weeks pregnant. Okay, I can see how that would
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: be burdensome. But Dave, all indications were she had signed
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: up for birth registeres. She was really excited about buying
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: baby stuff. Do you remember that. I remember finding out
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: when we were pregnant, and how excited I was to
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: do stuff. I don't know if I've ever been more
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: motivated in my life, and that's a very exciting time.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: And yet you're gonna say that she's going to take
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: her life. I don't think the police were buying it.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Brother, What say you, I well, they were all talking
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: to you. Cant I remember Joe the going back to
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Sandra Birgemore. She had been involved around the police department
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: for ten years, from even before she could be in
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the Explorer post, the same post where all of these
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: police were involved. You know, we've got a number of
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: law enforcement professionals, supposedly from the canon Boston area, Okay,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: who participated in that Explorer program that she was a
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: part of. And as you mentioned, from nine to ten
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: years old, she was involved in a club and other
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: things that got her right in the niche with these
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: same people who are now wildly being talked about internally.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: What happened is the law enforcement was hearing a lot
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: of stuff people talk. Okay, nothing hidden, won't be revealed.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: But when you're dealing with cops, they all talk.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Oh and you than a knitting circle. Yes they are.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: And because you know what, they're not all dirty, they're
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: not all bad, and they don't like the dirty and
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: bad ones. And I was going to roll over on them.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: But when they saw this happen. I'm talking about the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: police men, women, those associated with the police department. Joe,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: You're not going to convinced me that somebody I knew
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: that was going on. I knew they were doing this
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: because there was just too much talk. As a matter
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: of fact, two weeks before this happened, a guy called
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: up and said, hey, you know, this pregnant girl is
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: pregnant by this married guy, this married cop who has kids,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: and you know he's ditching or he's not taught, he's
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: ghosting her or whatever. You know, that call came in
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: to the police department. Everybody knew right then. Two weeks
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: before she's dead. So you mentioned the registries. You know,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: she's registering for children stuff. She's excited about it. She's
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: telling all of her friends, she's excited about this. She
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: was happy to be pregnant. Joe, and I think that's
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: the part that really started. The investigation began internally because
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the O'Keefe case was being bandied about and they knew
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: they had problems there. There were way too many of
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: the police officers involved in negative incidents, so that they
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about the upper levels of law enforce and said, okay, guys,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: we're going to have to shut ourselves down and have
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: an investigation done. And you know what, if you had
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: a dirty guy in here, he's going down because we
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: can't handle this on our own. We can't investigate ourselves
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: on this. This is already too far gone.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, good on them for doing that and for
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: seeing that. You know, these these individuals. You've got several
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: jurisdictions that are involved here. Obviously Canton Police, You've got
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: the Stouton Police that are involved in.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I forgot that was the name. I was trying to
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: think of. Yeah, the stout Police.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then and then of course you got the
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: state police. Okay, they're all involved in this. And so yeah,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it's a you know, when you think about it and
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: ringing up the DA, you know, you want that that
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: voice whispering in your ear. And if you think cops
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: are bad to talk, get a bunch of lawyers together
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: as well, because even more than cops, lawyers and prosecutors,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: now here's a big revelatory moment that none of you
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: might not see coming. I'm being facetious. Prosecutors in particular
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: are political animals, and it's because of that that I
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: think that you would be overly attuned to this, to
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: this particular case. It's very unfortunate, though, that it seems
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: as though people were not overly attuned to this prior
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: to Sondra's death. You know, brother, Dave, I got to
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: tell you one of the most striking things about Sondra's
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: case is the fact that you've got this huge amount
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: of time that elapsed. We're talking twenty twenty one, yeah,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, and.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Where Jebruary twenty twenty one to June twenty twenty four.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: That's how long it took from the investigation phase calling it,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: uh huh a suicide. And we already went through description
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: of what they walked into.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: And you pointed out.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: From the very beginning they were calling the DA before anything.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're calling paramedics in the DA at the
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: same time.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, you know, I can't imagine in what
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: universe unless they have some kind of weird sop that
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not aware of, why are you going to call
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the DA from Jump Street? You know that gives me
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: an indication because I've been for folks that don't know.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Just so you understand this bit, the DA generally has
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: a junior ada ADA. If you ever hear a term,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: it's an acronym for assistant District Attorney. And yes, there
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: are levels to these people. So if you got somebody
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that's right out of law school and they've come to
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: work for the ADA, they're going to be on call,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: all right, So when you get into the higher echelon,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: it's just like anything else, you're not going to be
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: on call. So they would have con they would have
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: somebody on call that if the police were out of
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: a scene, they would contact the DA or the prosecutor's
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: office and one of these junior ada's would roll out
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and they would stand by and they could literally be
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: on the scene talking to the cops to say advising
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: them legally, Okay, this is what you need to do.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: This is what you don't need to do. Why do
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: you need an ADA to advise on a suicide? Suicide
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: is not a ruling that the cops make, okay. Contrary
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: to what you hear some reporters say, well, the police
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: rule this as a suicide. No, they didn't. The medical
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: exams the corners the person makes that ruling. So the
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: medical examiner made the ruling of suicide, okay, And most
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: of the time police will go with that ruling, or
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: they'll go with the homicide ruling. You know, they're one mind.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I wonder if there's more. I wonder if there's something
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: here we're not seeing I think.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: It was the fact that everybody in the department knew
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: who this young woman was. They all knew Sandra Birchmore.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: She had been involved in their explorer post. It had
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: been around the police department and around all of these
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: badges for over ten years from all of her teen
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: years were spent around these police officers. And by the way,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Matthew Farwell, thirty eight year old police officer that was arrested, well,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: you know his twin brother was also a police officer
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: and was also involved with Sandra Birchmore. So it wasn't
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: just people in the community. It wasn't just her certain
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: friends and what have you. It was everybody in the
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: department knew that Sandra Birchmore was involved inappropriately.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, this one more person that needs to be
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: mentioned here. As a former soldier, I'm going to go
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: and say this an army recruiter, because she was trying
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to get, at one point in time, to the point
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: where she wanted to be a cop. Right, she was
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: trying to get to the point where she would do
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: better on the civil service exam. If you have veteran points, okay,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: like if you can say you're a veteran or that
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: you've served. When you go in to take the test,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: that elevates you above the rest of the crowd, right,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: it makes you stand out. And so you had an
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: army recruiter that had knowledge of all these behaviors allegedly
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: that were going on. And this individual's connected to all
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: of this. And you talk about getting yourself between a
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: rock and a hard place with Uncle Sam. You know
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: this is kicked up to with an army recruiter. This
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: kicked up to a federal level. I really wonder if
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Army CID didn't get involved in this. Obviously the Feds
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: are involved.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: That's what I was going to tell you. It was
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: a federal investigation as soon as this started, as soon
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: as the independent investigation, when they realized when they being
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: the law enforcement, the department, the Stouton police farmer realized
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: this goes beyond us. We've got an internal problem here.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: So they immediately went out. They already knew with the
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: O'Keeffe situation that we've got a problem in our department,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: and they went outside pretty quick. But that's why it
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: took time. And we've talked about this before on why
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: some investigations take more time than others. And in this
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: particular case, you had something that seemed very obvious to
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: everybody involved as to what had transpired with Sandra Burnmore.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: But that's not the case. And when they opened the
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: door to the investigation, Birchmore, I said, Burnmore, I apologize.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: No.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: When they got into the investigation, Joe, it became a
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: federal investigation, and that's who found the evidence that she
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: was not a suicide. She was a homicide. And that's
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: why former Stout and police officer Matthew Farwell was arrested.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: But again, friends, she was initially found in February twenty
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: twenty one. The investigation goes on over three years. They
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: investigated this in such a way that it's not just
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Farwell right now. He's the only one charged, you know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: right now, but there will be more, because there will
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: be with a gun and a badge up there seems
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: to be in trouble, yeah, I.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Mean yeah, And that's the way. And I think that
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: the people are trying to I don't know. I think
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: that folks are beginning to understand that the region up
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: there has got some issues and they're trying to pull
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: theirself out of proverbial ditch. Here. Here's one more thing
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: about this strap. I want to go back to real quickly. Farwell,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the one that is charged, not his twin, this guy,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: and they were to him as a decorated army vet,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: which means I think he was in the reserves. He's
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: been spun up, he has been deployed. Now I don't
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: know what decorations he has. I don't think he's Audie Murphy,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: but they refer to him in reports as being decorated.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I know that when you go through
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: basic training, you're issued a duffelback. But here's the thing.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Most duffelback straps, the ones that I'm aware of that
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: you get issued, are not detachable. One end is sewn in. Now,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: there are aftermarket things that you can buy that make
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: it a single strap where you can hook it onto
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: one hook and hook it somewhere else. I'm just wondering.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious. I'll be very very curious to see
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: this if it ever makes it into the light of day,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: what this strap actually looked like. I also want to
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: know when they removed her from the scene. That would
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: have been the em East personnel. By the way, little
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: known fact did you know that the state of Massachusetts
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: is where the actual term medical examiner was first used,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: and that was in the eighteen seventies. They still had corners,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: but they brought in a medical examiner to confer with
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: the elected corner. So just a little and now they
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: have a state medical examiner up there. That's what they used.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: So the State Medical Examiner's office would have come in
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: and removed her and taken her. I wonder if they
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: took the strap off of her before they left the scene,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: or if they left it in place. I'm hoping they'd
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: left it in place and just untied the securing knot
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: up at you know, on the door handle, left it
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: in place and that way they could bring it in.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: But they secured it enough, Dave, I think they were
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: able to collect trace evidence from it. Correct.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: They got DNA from Farwell on the strap. They got
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: DNA from Farwell, the arrested Farewell, Matthew and Joe. There's
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: a another side of this that you know, we've got
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: DNA putting him there at the scene. There's even more
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: DNA in her panties. But Joe Matthew Farwell was actually
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: captured on security camera. Yeah, as he's leaving Birchmore, leaving
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: her apartment, and his clothing is crystal clear what he's
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: wearing everything else. And then see his wife was giving
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: birth to their third child, I believe, and Matthew Farewell
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: in the same clothes he has seen leaving Santra Birchmore's house,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: arrives at the hospital to hold his new baby in
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: the same clothing.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And there is that chilling, chilling photograph.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: To me, it's quite chilling. I'll urge anybody if you
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: haven't seen this image, mad, look, it'll it'll make your
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: blood run cold, because he's standing there with a surgical
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: mask on and you can see his eyes and he
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: is holding this precious little newborn baby and he's staring
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: right into the camera. And Dave, what the authorities are
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: saying at this point in time, it had been just
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: within hours according to what they're saying, that he had
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: taken Sandra's life. But yet here he is. Yeah, she's pregnant.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: And the thing about it is it turns out the baby,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: who who he's also being hell responsible for, according to
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the authorities, had been charged with that death. It's not his.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: This is somebody else's he thought it was. Yeah, he
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: thought it was at the time. And he's sitting there
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: and he's holding this newborn and he's staring right over
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: his mask and looking into the lens of the camera.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you the FBI has done yeomen's
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: work in this case because, first off, as the FBI
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: does many times, they have kept their mouths shut. Now.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: I guess FBI agents talk amongst themselves. I'm sure they do.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: They're all human. However, we haven't heard anything from them
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: to this point. It's being reported now that you know
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: you had mentioned earlier, Dave, what was a quote you said?
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: It was like, there's so much more. Well, we know
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: what so much more is now because now you have,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: at a molecular level, you have connectivity between the accused
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: and actually this strap that has been weaponized to rob
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: the world of Sandra Burchmore's presence, never to be seen again,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: and oh, by the bye, her child that was a
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: murder victim as well. Look at this is a second
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: episode we have done on Sondra, and I can tell
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: you there will be more because I got to tell
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: you I'm truly vested in this case, more so than before.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I want to see how all of this plays out.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I want to know about the evidence.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I add the tip on what our next thing
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: is going to be on this please. Matthew Farwell is
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the only one arrested right now and the only one charge,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: but the investigation determined other men were also involved in
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: abusing Birchmore, including the town dogcatcher, Farwell's trim brother William,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: their friend and mentor Robert Devine, also a police officer,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Birchmore's army recruiter, and the animal control officer from Stouton
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: forced to give up his badge after details about his
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: inappropriate actions with Birchmore were made public. There you go,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: that's our next show, when those charges come down.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: And the beat goes on. I don't know, you know,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: says we always stay here on Bodybacks. You know you
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: think that the House of Depravity truly has a basement,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: It really doesn't. It just keeps going deeper and deeper.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.