Latest / Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan / Ep. 8 - AI Won’t Save Us: Technology, Humanity, and the Quiet Revival in Silicon Valley

Transcript

Ep. 8 - AI Won’t Save Us: Technology, Humanity, and the Quiet Revival in Silicon Valley · Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome to Fulfilled.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Rebecca Sheehan.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I am starting today's episode with a deep question.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: What actually makes humans human?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is something people have pondered for thousands of years,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: but lately it's taken on a whole new level of importance with artificial
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: intelligence evolving so quickly.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: For a long time,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: we thought our intelligence,
• 0:30
  basically our ability to think and reason was something that
• 0:33
  differentiated humans
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: from everything else on earth.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: But thanks to AI, that's just not the case anymore.
• 0:40
  So I thought it would be fascinating to explore this through
• 0:43
  the lens of Christianity.
• 0:45
  Joining us today to help shed light on the intersection of AI
• 0:48
  and Christianity is
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: someone fully immersed in both worlds.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Jay Kim is lead pastor of Westgate Church in Silicon Valley,
• 0:57
  as well as a podcast host and author of several books on
• 1:00
  Christianity in the
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: digital age,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: including Analog Church and Analog Christian.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Jay Kim, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've lived here basically my whole life.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wasn't born here, but moved to San Jose, California when I was four.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when my mother and I moved here to San Jose,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: single mom,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: no siblings,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: she was coming out of some significant hardship.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we lived for several years with my aunt and uncle.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And my uncle at the time worked for IBM,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:49
  and they were like the big sort of personal computer
• 1:52
  manufacturer at the time.
• 1:54
  And I remember growing up very early as a child through
• 1:57
  elementary school,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: having these PCs at home.
• 2:01
  I have this recollection of playing these little 8-bit video
• 2:04
  games on the PCs and,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:06
  messing around a bit with the word processor and like typing
• 2:09
  out stories and stuff.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: printing them out on those super loud printers.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been around technology my whole life.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've lived here in Silicon Valley my whole life.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I became a pastor 20-something years ago in my early 20s,
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: it was just kind of a natural intersection to ask questions about
• 2:27
  technology,
• 2:28
  not just what it's doing for us,
• 2:29
  but asking the question,
• 2:30
  how is it forming us?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: How is it changing me as a person?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: How is it in many ways accentuating and supporting my humanity?
• 2:40
  And then in other ways,
• 2:41
  how is it sort of undoing my humanity,
• 2:44
  making me less human?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So those are questions I've been interested in for a long time.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say probably for the last
• 2:52
  eight to 10 years,
• 2:53
  they're questions that I've really tried to tackle at a deep
• 2:57
  pastoral level.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the questions are never ending because technology moves so fast.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're having this conversation about artificial intelligence,
• 3:06
  and we've never had a technology that moves and grows and
• 3:09
  evolves as fast as AI.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Large language models are sort of built to do that.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an interesting time.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's kind of my backstory.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: The Bible says, of course, there's nothing new under the sun.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you were posing those questions,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: it just made me think,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: is this something that's really new,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: this challenge that humans are grappling with?
• 3:30
  Or is this just kind of different version or iteration of
• 3:35
  something that humans
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: have grappled with in the past?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 3:37
  is this technology much different from the Industrial
• 3:40
  Revolution or other sort of
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: inflection points throughout humanity?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a wonderful question.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a question that all of us should be asking and discussing.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think my sense right now is that it is new and it's not new.
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  It's not new in the sense that we've always had new
• 3:59
  technologies that upend sort of
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: societal norms and cause lots of anxiety and fear.
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  The Greek philosophers really worried when the written word was
• 4:09
  invented because
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: they thought it would completely undo human memory.
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  SPEAKER_01: When calculators were invented in the mid-20th century,
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  there was a lot of uproar that we would create a
• 4:19
  non-mathematical society.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And those things have been proven true in some ways and untrue in others.
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  But it's new in the sense that we have a technology that can
• 4:31
  actually express and
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  SPEAKER_01: try to mimic and embody human reason and emotion.
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  I think that makes AI very new and different than just the
• 4:38
  internet or the
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  SPEAKER_01: smartphone or social media,
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  SPEAKER_01: for example.
• 4:42
  Can you talk a little bit about what exactly is generative AI
• 4:45
  versus other forms of
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  SPEAKER_00: AI that we've had before and how it's being utilized?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: to put it really simply,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: like when you open ChatGPT and you start using it,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: it can feel almost magical.
• 4:58
  I shudder a little bit imagining how much more AI will feel and
• 5:04
  sound human in the
• 5:07
  years to come because we're so early and it's already so
• 5:10
  uncanny in its ability to
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: interact with us.
• 5:13
  But really,
• 5:15
  behind the curtain,
• 5:16
  what's happening is it's still a digital technology.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: that whole concept of artificial intelligence because of Hollywood,
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  SPEAKER_01: we think of them as like,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: oh my gosh,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're going to have full agency and feelings and,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Best world, if you've seen that show.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally, totally.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we get there,
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: but just being here in Silicon Valley,
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: having lots of friends,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: many of our congregants who work in the field,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: in the industry,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: we're so far from that.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Large language models are still, at the end of the day,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: ones and zeros.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're patterns and algorithms that are just super fast.
• 5:53
  It basically consume very massive data sets of text from all
• 5:58
  over the internet,
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  SPEAKER_01: which means all over human knowledge,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: and then respond,
• 6:02
  generate a response or ideas or summaries or translations or
• 6:05
  whatever it might be.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's generative
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: AI.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's just generating very quickly faster than humans.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's the stunning thing.
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  It's doing the same thing in some ways that we do when we
• 6:18
  respond to questions or conversations.
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  We're just sort of going through the data set of our knowledge
• 6:24
  and our experience
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: and then formulating a response.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, at this point, it's still ones and zeros.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's just digital technology
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: algorithms that are surveying massive sets of data and formulating really
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: compelling responses most of the time.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's scary that it feels human to us when we interact with chat GPT.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like the other day, I said, chat GPT, what do I do?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And my son is testing all these boundaries.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it's aggregating responses from all across the internet.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, it's like a therapist, like someone I'm talking to.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: that's a great idea where it's not actually their idea,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: but it's sort of hard for humans to grasp,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a whole thing, AI as your therapist.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole movement and it's being monetized at scale.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a whole other interesting conversation as well.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  is it adequate to just get the best information possible and
• 7:20
  summarize it in a way
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  SPEAKER_01: that can be functionally,
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  SPEAKER_01: pragmatically most helpful and effective?
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  I think that's a big part of the help we receive from therapy
• 7:29
  or direction or counseling.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I do wonder if there's a more human component,
• 7:34
  things like empathy and embodied presence that anything
• 7:38
  non-human will lack.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a fascinating question.
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  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
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  SPEAKER_00: If one of your congregants comes to you as their pastor with a question,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 7:47
  you can aggregate all the information you know and everything
• 7:51
  you know from the
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Bible,
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  SPEAKER_00: but can you try to explain what it is in addition to that?
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  What makes you different from AI when you're answering their
• 7:58
  questions and ministering to them?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  the first thing that comes to mind is what the Christian
• 8:04
  theologians would call
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  SPEAKER_01: incarnational,
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  SPEAKER_01: like in the flesh presence.
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  And there's a sort of profound healing that can come about when
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  we realize,
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  SPEAKER_01: not through words or ideas or answers,
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  SPEAKER_01: but literally through the loving presence of a human that is with you,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a sort of healing that comes that the best answers can't provide.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was with a young family in our church just this past week.
• 8:30
  whose newborn baby has been in the hospital at the ER several
• 8:33
  times because of a
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: pretty significant breathing issue.
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  And they're not sure if it's going to require surgery or if
• 8:39
  there even is really a resolution.
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  They've had some very frightening moments with their newborn,
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  unable to breathe,
• 8:46
  turning blue.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just really scary stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they asked me to pray,
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: and I did,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I realized,
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  SPEAKER_01: man,
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  I don't really have words that are going to bring relief to
• 8:56
  this young family.
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  SPEAKER_01: All I have is my humanity.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I tried to give that to them.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the prayer was less about what I said,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: and it was more about who I am and offering that to them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that's something that AI will ever be able to give us.
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  I don't think that's something that anything less than human
• 9:15
  will ever provide for us.
• 9:17
  So that's a part of the way I think about the unique gift of
• 9:21
  our humanity to one another.
• 9:24
  What do you think are the best and worst ways that churches are
• 9:28
  using AI right now?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And how does your church use AI?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: We use AI pretty minimally.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: We do use it.
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  So the paradigm we've used for a long time for most
• 9:38
  technologies is that digital
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: technology can inform.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's great for information.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: But transformation,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: which is the end goal of the Christian life,
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: to be formed into Christlikeness,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: transformation is an embodied,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: human,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: in-person,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: incarnational,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: analog experience.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the way we determine when and how we will use any digital technology,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: including AI at our church,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: is to ask the question,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: is this project or this task we are trying to accomplish,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: is the primary goal to inform our people?
• 10:20
  Is it to provide the right information that might then move
• 10:25
  them into more
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: incarnational,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: embodied,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: analog spaces where they can experience transformation?
• 10:32
  And anything that lives in that information space,
• 10:36
  we're very happy to use digital technology.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we do use AI.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: The way we use AI is,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 10:43
  we have found ChatGPT really helpful in creating much more
• 10:47
  efficient workflows for
• 10:50
  writing copy for specific events or gatherings or particular
• 10:55
  invitations we're
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: trying to make.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: it just saves us a lot of time.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: We input the data and the information.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're not trying to be creative.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're not trying to come across as like, hey, this is a human experience.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 11:06
  we're like trying to send you an email that lets you know when
• 11:10
  and where to be so
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: that we can gather and experience transformation in embodied ways.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: which is happening over digital technology,
• 11:20
  I'm happy to use digital because I'm hoping that this
• 11:23
  conversation is informative
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: to people.
• 11:26
  I hope it's inspiring and I hope it provokes people to go take
• 11:30
  action in embodied
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: ways,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: within the context of their local community.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how we think about using AI.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: But we will never allow not only AI, but digital technology
• 11:42
  to take the place of human interaction when it comes to
• 11:45
  transformational experiences.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like the programs that write sermons for pastors.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or this was the worst one I just read about.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: A Catholic church was using an AI Jesus in a confessional.
• 11:59
  So people would literally be confessing to this,
• 12:03
  I don't know,
• 12:03
  holographic AI Jesus.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's like the most nightmarish version of AI I can think of.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just, I think we have to be really careful with that sort of thing.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 12:18
  Do you think that AI can be used to spread the gospel,
• 12:23
  used as the first step informationally?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: an introduction of the gospel is often,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: not always,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: but it is often by way of the mind,
• 12:34
  informing people of an alternative vision for living life in
• 12:39
  the world and an
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: alternative vision for flourishing and for salvation.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So when we're offering that vision on an informational level,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think digital technologies are an incredible tool.
• 12:52
  Podcasts like this are an incredible tool to adequately and
• 12:57
  dynamically inform
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: people with right knowledge.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, A.W.
• 13:02
  Tozer famously said in The Knowledge of the Holy,
• 13:05
  at the very beginning,
• 13:06
  he says,
• 13:07
  What we think about when we think about God is the most
• 13:09
  important thing about us.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Paul says to the Romans, be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
• 13:17
  He writes elsewhere,
• 13:18
  fix your mind on things above and not on things below.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is all,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: at least in part,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: about information,
• 13:26
  about receiving the right knowledge and then fixing our minds
• 13:29
  on that right
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: knowledge.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think digital tools are really helpful for that.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it's incomplete.
• 13:34
  Real change within us with that right knowledge happens through
• 13:38
  practice and participation.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that can only be done in our bodies and with our bodies.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Something that concerns me is that people become so reliant on AI,
• 13:50
  but the real transformation happens when you just leave this
• 13:54
  digital world behind
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: and can actually just be with God.
• 13:58
  But it seems like there are fewer and fewer opportunities for
• 14:02
  people to do that
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: when they won't put their phones down.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see that too?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think in the digital age, we default to distraction.
• 14:12
  We have become really uncomfortable with what feels,
• 14:16
  at least on the surface,
• 14:17
  like boredom.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sherry Turkle has this book.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: She's an MIT professor years ago.
• 14:22
  She wrote this book called Alone Together,
• 14:24
  which I think the title says it all.
• 14:26
  You go to basically any coffee shop or restaurant these days or
• 14:30
  family dining table
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: at dinner,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: and it is not...
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uncommon to see people who are literally physically close,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: but mentally,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: emotionally completely distant.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're just lost on your screen.
• 14:44
  And it's because smartphones becoming ubiquitous and giving us
• 14:50
  access to the
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Internet and to social media.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: These are all distraction machines if we allow them to be.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so any sort of idle time,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: silence and solitude or real deep,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: meaningful community where we connect deeply in the presence of others.
• 15:05
  And these things have become so rare and so uncommon and
• 15:08
  therefore for many of us
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: really unfamiliar and really uncomfortable.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we will default to distraction in the digital age,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: which means the only way to live an embodied way
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: analog life with God and with others is to be really intentional.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So unless we're intentional,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: we will default to distraction and default to our social media feeds.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: for everybody listening who wants to live a richer,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: fuller life in Jesus,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think intentionality is key.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you're on the ground in Silicon Valley.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently, I've heard it's cool to be Christian there now.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: There was an article I read that was entitled,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity was,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: borderline illegal in Silicon Valley.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's the new religion.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Not that it's a new religion.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But why the change, in your opinion?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how is this impacting the technology that we're seeing, if at all?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 16:08
  I've had like two dozen friends send me that article and I read
• 16:11
  it when it first
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: came out.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: On one hand,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I would agree that there is not just in Silicon Valley,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: but in the industrialized,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: developed Western world,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: there seems to be what cultural commentators are calling a vibe shift.
• 16:29
  And what they mean by that is a surprising increasing openness
• 16:34
  to spirituality in
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: general and more specifically to Christianity.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are saying that there is a sort of a quiet revival happening.
• 16:43
  People point back to Asbury a couple of years ago in 2023 when
• 16:48
  there was this
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: spontaneous,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: unprompted,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: days-and-days-long revival.
• 16:52
  what looked and felt like revival and renewal at this small
• 16:56
  Christian college in
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Wilmore,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Kentucky.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: People are talking a lot about what is happening at St.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Church in London,
• 17:03
  thousands of young people who are worshiping and praying all
• 17:07
  day and all night,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: There seems to be a vibe shift.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say here in Silicon Valley, we are a part of that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: We sense that we are being swept up in that.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: There is an increasing openness to Christianity,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: to the way of Jesus,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: an increasing curiosity,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: and for some even an increasing hunger and desire and longing for Jesus.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really beautiful in that way.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I also think,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: on the other hand,
• 17:31
  that that article mentions some significant names in the
• 17:35
  Silicon Valley world and
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: overstates things a little bit.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: People like Gary Tan,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: who was one of the founders of Y Combinator,
• 17:42
  which is one of the biggest or most significant influential
• 17:46
  venture capitalist
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: firms to sort of get startups going.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: They mentioned Peter Thiel,
• 17:50
  who has been pretty public about his Christian faith for many
• 17:54
  years and some other
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: folks.
• 17:57
  So because significant public figures in Silicon Valley are
• 18:01
  being more open and
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: more outward facing about their professed faith in Jesus,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: it can feel like things have shifted.
• 18:10
  But there's over 10 million people who live in the Greater Bay
• 18:14
  Area where I live.
• 18:15
  And when you look at the data about how many profess Jesus as
• 18:20
  Lord and Savior,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: that number is not shifting in some massive significant way.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: It moves much slower than a Vanity Fair article likes to depict.
• 18:29
  It's not like there's people at Apple who are like just walking
• 18:32
  the hallways worshiping Jesus.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's not what's happening.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Nor does that need to happen.
• 18:39
  I think there's something really beautiful about a quiet
• 18:41
  revival or quiet renewal.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's both and.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is something shifting.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's slower and less sexy than maybe a Benny Fair article,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: wants to make it seem.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of that slow revival,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 18:57
  the article did mention that there used to be this secret
• 19:00
  spreadsheet of Christians
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: in tech that the Christians would pass around.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: But like, that is a thing of the past, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you don't have to be a closeted Christian anymore.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's progress.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, this Christianity was borderline illegal.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I understand what that means,
• 19:20
  that people did not walk around Silicon Valley workplaces
• 19:25
  flaunting their faith.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly there has been a sort of unspoken rule.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Don't bring Jesus into the workplace.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that has shifted some.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
• 19:37
  it hasn't shifted so much that there's just this blanket golden
• 19:42
  ticket to just talk
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: about Jesus whenever you want.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: One of our congregations, we're a multi-congregational church.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're about 10 minutes from Apple Park,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: which is the big giant spaceship,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: the main headquarters of Apple.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say probably 50% of that congregation,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: which is a fairly large congregation,
• 19:59
  either works at Apple or they have a spouse or a partner who
• 20:01
  works at Apple.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I've asked them significant questions about this vibe shift.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they've told me the same thing.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: there's maybe a bit of a shift,
• 20:10
  but it's not as fast and as swift as a 2,000-word article wants
• 20:15
  to make it seem.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely hope, but I think patience is necessary.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's a quiet revival, not a big, massive one-time one.
• 20:26
  Do you think that the quiet revival is a symptom of the broader
• 20:30
  cultural shift as a
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: whole,
• 20:31
  or do you think it has to do specifically with what's happening
• 20:35
  in tech and maybe
• 20:36
  some existential questions that are arising with generative AI
• 20:40
  about what humanity
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: really is?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: First and foremost, I think it's a move of the Holy Spirit.
• 20:46
  I don't think there's quiet revival because Peter Thiel says
• 20:50
  he's Christian.
• 20:51
  I just think God wants to do something new,
• 20:53
  and I'm really grateful for that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I do think, in part, there is also what you said, not just with AI.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it started with the COVID pandemic.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here in Silicon Valley,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Santa Clara County specifically,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: we were the first county in the country to have complete lockdown,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: and we were one of the last counties in the country to open up.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what it did was it created real existential angst in Silicon Valley.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I saw it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: People were just asking...
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: really hard questions about the meaning of life and why we're here,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: and does any of this matter?
• 21:28
  And I think what it did was it exposed the failure of the
• 21:31
  secular project,
• 21:32
  that if you could just have enough and earn enough and achieve
• 21:36
  enough and succeed
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: enough,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: you will find a life of deep meaning and purpose and joy.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what the pandemic did was expose that to be a lie.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because here in Silicon Valley, I'm surrounded by men and women
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: who have achieved at levels that are incredible,
• 21:53
  and yet they found themselves completely lost and alone and
• 21:58
  without meaning.
• 21:59
  And so I think the Holy Spirit has used that to spark this sort
• 22:03
  of curiosity and
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: desire and hunger and openness to something transcendent.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when you have all of this wealth,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: when you have everything that you think you want,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: when you have all of this wealth,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: when you have everything that you think you want,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: A,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's never enough.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: But B, I mean, we just all need Jesus.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 22:25
  What's your biggest fear with AI and the direction that this
• 22:28
  technology is going?
• 22:29
  I think my greatest concern is less to do with the technology
• 22:32
  and how the technology evolves.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think my greatest concern has to do with us, with humans.
• 22:39
  And human beings have a propensity to misuse and abuse the
• 22:43
  tools that are at our disposal.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my concern is that we will be careless and thoughtless,
• 22:50
  and rather than neutralizing the tools and then leveraging them
• 22:55
  to benefit our
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: humanity,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: we will allow the tools to use us to make us less human.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we see this from the very beginning.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you go back to Genesis 11,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: there's that story that we know as the Tower of Babel story,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: where these human beings create this giant tower.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: to reach up to the heavens and they say,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: let's do this so that we can make a name for ourselves.
• 23:16
  And what's interesting about that story is the writer makes a
• 23:20
  point to name technology.
• 23:23
  So he says like they use bricks and mortar and these were like
• 23:27
  new technologies of
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: the day and they're good technologies,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: but they use the technology for selfish gain.
• 23:34
  And I think that's my greatest concern is that we're just going
• 23:37
  to start building
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: the towers of Babel all over again.
• 23:40
  that will undo our humanity rather than make us more human in
• 23:44
  the way that God intended.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any examples of what that could look like?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Social media is like the prime example, to be honest with you.
• 23:54
  If you think about Facebook and other social media platforms
• 23:58
  that have come out in
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: the last 15 years or so,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: they all promised us that it would connect
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: It would create greater social bonds.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: But we have enough data now to show that was a lie.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Social media actually has made us more lonely,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: more isolated,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: more comparative and contemptuous toward one another.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's built walls, not bridges.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that's probably the first example that comes to mind.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we're not thoughtful,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: if we're not careful,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: that's what all of these new technologies are going to do.
• 24:31
  Make us less human,
• 24:32
  more disconnected,
• 24:33
  rather than work towards human flourishing.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Are there safeguards that we as Christians can put into place?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 24:43
  I think that the fact that there are a lot of Christians in
• 24:45
  tech right now,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: even though it's a slow build,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: is that encouraging to you in some way?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the question to be asked isn't,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: we've got a lot of Christians who work in tech,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: so we're on our way.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: The question is,
• 25:00
  how many people who work in tech are allowing the way of Jesus
• 25:04
  to inform their
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: working decisions?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really the question to ask.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because I can be a Christian,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: but if I'm compartmentalizing my Christianity,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's like being Christian means I pray before I eat,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I go to church on Sundays,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: but then,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: eight to five,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: I go to work and I have my work life.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: If that's true, then there's going to be no impact through that person.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: into the technological space with the way of Jesus.
• 25:31
  It's when we integrate our lives and realize I am one human
• 25:35
  being who lives one life.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I follow Jesus when I am designing.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I follow Jesus when I am coding.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that means that the way of Jesus has to inform the work that I do.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think when that number begins to increase,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: we'll begin to see real progress in the technological space.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: What would that look like for you?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just more technology used for its best intended purposes?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: A great question.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 26:03
  my expectation is not that technological tools and digital
• 26:06
  platforms will ever be
• 26:08
  designed with the primary intent and purpose of forming us into
• 26:12
  Christlikeness.
• 26:13
  Very few technologies will do that because these are for-profit
• 26:16
  companies for the
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: most part that are intending to pad the bottom line.
• 26:21
  And the gospel for tech companies is make a great product that
• 26:25
  people can't live
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: without and make tons of money.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: That stands in direct opposition to the way of Jesus.
• 26:32
  So really what it's going to come down to is not waiting for
• 26:34
  tech companies to design things.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus-centered technologies.
• 26:39
  It is for Jesus-centered people to leverage whatever technology
• 26:43
  is before us in a
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus-centered way.
• 26:46
  And that's something that's possible regardless of the
• 26:49
  intention of the technology.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So in some ways, we have more control than we think we do.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: We just can't rely on the tech companies to do the work for us.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to do the work for ourselves.
• 27:02
  What's your best advice to any Christians watching or listening
• 27:06
  on how to do that?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: How can they best interact with technology in a healthy, productive way?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, let digital technology inform you.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do not let it transform you or form you in any way.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I would say.
• 27:23
  So I like to end each episode by asking my interviewee to share
• 27:27
  a Bible verse,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: maybe one that's meaningful to you or relates to the topic.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's one you want to share, I'd love to hear it.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: the one that comes to mind,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: just thinking about being formed into Christlikeness and the way digital
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: technologies and social media and AI can form us in the
• 27:48
  The passage that comes to mind is that beautiful text from
• 27:51
  Galatians 5 where the
• 27:53
  Apostle Paul is talking about the fruit of the Spirit and the
• 27:56
  characteristics of
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: the fruit of the Spirit.
• 27:59
  Love,
• 27:59
  joy,
• 28:00
  peace,
• 28:01
  patience,
• 28:01
  kindness,
• 28:02
  goodness,
• 28:02
  faithfulness,
• 28:03
  gentleness,
• 28:04
  and self-control.
• 28:05
  So I just hope everybody listening would commit their lives to
• 28:10
  becoming people of those things.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: people of love and joy and peace,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: patience and kindness and goodness and faithfulness and self-control.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And AI and technology will never cultivate that sort of fruit in you.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's done by the spirit of God in the community of God's people.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope all of us will say yes to that invitation.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And lastly,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: if people want to follow you on social media or check out your work,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: where should they go?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have a little website, jkimthinks.com, and all my work is there.
• 28:45
  And you can find me on Instagram or X at the same little
• 28:50
  handle,
• 28:50
  jkimthinks.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to talk about your books briefly?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I've written a few books.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can find them wherever you buy books, Amazon or wherever else.
• 29:02
  Analog Christian,
• 29:03
  Analog Church,
• 29:04
  and my latest book,
• 29:05
  Listen,
• 29:05
  Listen,
• 29:05
  Speak.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: They all sort of live at that intersection of
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: the digital age, and our discipleship to Jesus.
• 29:12
  So if that's of interest to you,
• 29:13
  I hope one or all of the books can be a help to you.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, J. Kim, thank you so much for joining us today on Fulfilled.
• 29:23
  That was so informative and I hope inspired a lot of people to
• 29:29
  put their phones
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: down and use technology wisely.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks to all of you, our awesome listeners, for tuning in.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And your support means a lot.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you enjoyed today's conversation,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: be sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts.
• 29:46
  Stay inspired,
• 29:47
  keep trusting in God's plan for your life,
• 29:49
  and we'll see you next time.