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Vacation EPR and Mental Compulsion (OCD & ERP)(Episode 21) · Living Uncertain an OCD Podcast

• Opening: Hello, and welcome to the podcast, Living Uncertain. This podcast is dedicated to obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, and the primary treatment, exposure response prevention, ERP. OCD comes in many forms, such as contamination, perfectionism, checking, harm, superstitious, religious or moral, sexual orientation, and or relationship. ERP is the gold standard to treating OCD. and it focuses on deliberately confronting fears, the exposure, while refraining from compulsive rituals, the response prevention. With repeated exposures and without engaging in compulsions, we learn to tolerate anxiety and break the cycle of intrusive thoughts. We are a married couple that have faced both the challenges of OCD and the incredible healing that ERP can provide to your marriage, family, and your home. As a person who lives with OCD, I am much more than this diagnosis. We all can be. Marc and Stacee: Hey y'all, I'm Stacy. And along with my husband Mark, we want to thank you for living uncertain with us. We appreciate you joining us for another episode of our podcast. Of course, as you all know, this is the podcast that talks all things OCD and ERP related. And welcome to episode 21, where we have some bits and baubles to talk about today, during today's episode. And one being that it is our first episode post our week long trip that we just got back from. And there was some ERP performed on that trip and some interesting things to to share as far as how it relates to our journey and wanting to talk about a few other little things along the way. So thank you for joining us. Welcome. So this was probably the most enjoyable trip that I have had. As have I. and I think a lot of it was because of all the ERP that you've been through. Yes. Because in past trips, your OCD would get in the way of any type of fun. Yes. It's a it's a fun stealer. It's a fun thief as well. Yes. Amongst thieving other things too. But before we get too involved, I actually both Mark and I want to take a second to thank everyone who listened to last week's episode in particular. as our daughter shared her story. So thank you all for listening. And we're so proud of her being able to to be that brave to share some of the struggles that she's had with her own OCD and what it looks like and what she's doing now in terms of her own journey through ERP to help. Yes. And today is actually her birthday. It is. So happy birthday every birthday. Yes. So I mean that was that was a big deal for her to share. A how your OCD and your ERP has impacted her, but also her own OCD that she has. Yes. And and how she's working through it still. Yes. And during our trip were some moments that we had to practice some ERP that she didn't necessarily know that we were doing. You know, we were in San Francisco down on Pier thirty nine. It's very crowded, which she struggles with the crowds. Mm-hmm. And we had to continue to expose her to those crowds in order for her anxiety to go up and come back down. Yep. And there were times where we de I definitely noticed where her anxieties were was up higher. Like she could not necessarily enjoy the sea lines as much as I think it because her anxiety and her O C D was was kicking pretty high. And so we had to watch her have those moments where her anxiety would get up and then come back down and have and monitor her to make sure she wasn't performing any compulsions because she tends to perform some physical ones as well as mental in order to help her navigate those kinds of situations. but I do commend her to one of the things that she said last week that I really enjoyed listening to her say was that she felt very fortunate that she was taking on this journey as early as she is. So that she can have much more success earlier in her life. And that was that was very poignant for me, knowing that it has taken me somewhat longer in my life to get my diagnosis and to go on the ERP journey. So I'm very happy too that she's able to do so earlier so that she's not struggling as much. Well, and I think it it helps that, you know, knowing that OCD can be a familial component. And and our therapist recognized that in her. Yes. And we went through and did the screening with her and and found the different areas that that she you know deals with as far as the OCD, you know, her compulsion compulsions as she as she does mental rumination, you know, she's got some religious OCD in there and you know, different different little facets that we're learning as she's recognizing herself what could be an OCD. piece versus just regular life too. She's learning more about herself. And that's that that's that educational piece right now that she's Well I was gonna say she's really embracing the psychoeducational piece of it and really getting a lot out of that. And and then therefore we're getting more out of that piece because we're going back through it with her and really remembering and and learning new things about the education of OCD and what it can look like and how incredibly different it can look person to person. Even though we are a family, her OCD presents much differently than mine does. Mm-hmm. And so that means that ERP looks just a little bit differently. but then the end result is the ultimate goal, which is to struggle less. A little bit more freedom. Mm-hmm. And I and I agree with with Mark. I I agree with you, babe. I think this was the most enjoyable vacation we've ever had. I think I felt different. I feel different most days. And this was no different than that I woke up every day feeling good about what we were doing and excited about what we were doing instead of feeling anxious or nervous or or unsure. I was ready to embrace the things I hadn't done before or hadn't seen before versus prior trips where I would get very caught up in not wanting to have anything to do with that because it took me out of the safety zone. It took me out of the the comfort of where I was and I didn't want to do anything that made me feel uncertain or uncomfortable. And now I embrace that more. So you know one thing that could have really tripped you up was is that Miles stayed home. Mm-hmm. So it was just the three of us on the trip. Mm-hmm. He stayed home to work and take care of the animals because he was off to DC before we got back from our trip. Mm-hmm. So that could have been a in in the past, I know that that would have been a something that probably was not allowed. No, we wouldn't have taken yeah, that yeah. The trip would not either either would not have happened or if it did happen, you would have been so wrapped up with him being at home that you wouldn't be able to enjoy the moment. Right. So again, as I've kind of alluded to or spoken very directly about in previous episodes, I have an intrusive Thought that gets to me in relation to our kids, because I also have intrusive thoughts surrounding death. And that intrusive thought being, if my kids are out of my sight, they're dead. Are dead. They will die. And so therefore I can never let them out of my sight. I have to check on con them constantly. I have to check with you, babe, in order to make sure that everything is okay and they're all right. and so that was a Big deal for me on this particular trip because it, because of all the ERP I've already been through, it was much easier to leave him at home. And of course, as as normal parents would, we checked in with him along the way. We made sure he was okay. He checked in with us, et cetera, as normal would be. It didn't have to go beyond that. And I never felt my anxiety raise, in particular to Miles being at home. I didn't feel it wasn't I I maintained the ability to stay present. I embraced the uncertainty, I embraced the unknown. And that's something that I've never been able to do because also the intrusive thought is, well, if it's unknown, then I'll get hurt or I'll die or something will happen. Or and so that took a lot of time for me to to navigate that. But now that I have, it was a An incredibly enjoyable trip. And I even did the same ERP with Ave. Yep. So there's a couple of nights that we well, first the first stop that we did, we we stopped at Santa Monica Pier and and you know, walked around there and and there's the amusement park that's, you know, at the pier and Avery wanted you to go on the roller coaster ride, which I think was a first to go on a roller coaster ride with just you and her. Well, yeah, because roller coasters also mean death. Say it with me, everyone. Because it's a new experience or because it's something that is somewhat can be somewhat unsafe. If I get on there, I will die, or she will die, or something will happen. So then after the roller coaster ride, she wanted to go and do I don't even know what you call the thing that goes up really fast and drops, you know. You know, you didn't want to do it, she wanted to do it. So she went on her by herself. she did. And she went out of your sight. She did. And I had told her we'll meet you outside the gate, you know, and we're gonna be down there till we can we can watch you go up and down, up and down, up and down, which we had to leave the the confined area. Mm-hmm. Which we did, and then we could see I see put eyes on her. Yeah. And we could see her going on the ride and back down. But then I had to sit in my discomfort while we sat just outside of the park arena, like you mentioned, and wait for her to come back to us. Well, and there's a couple pieces to that. First of all, she didn't have her phone. yeah. Because we had it. Yes. And I mean, you did ask me a couple of times, is she gonna be able to find us? And and I always had to reply with. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't know. Yeah. And sometimes I'd be, you know, funny and say no. Yeah, that's not funny. Not funny. But at this point in in your your ERP, it's it Yes the no 100% is is something I can get away with. Something yes, you can. And and I did feel in that moment when she wasn't with us and I was waiting for her to return to us, I did feel my anxiety go up. And I could feel I when we talk about levels of anxiety too and and the term suds in terms of how far do you you know, scale of one to ten, how far did your anxiety go up before it would come back down without engaging in the compulsion. And even though I tried to engage in a compulsion, Mark didn't let me get away with that. And so I had to sit in that uncomfortability. And I would say at that time my anxiety had reached a good level, maybe seven or eight, because I couldn't see her and I couldn't. And I was anticipating her coming around one corner when she actually came around a different corner. And I think that was the first moment where I went, what are we doing here? What's was this really a good idea? And then after she came back. I thought, okay. And I didn't Well, you knew she was safe at that point 'cause you laid eyes on her. Yes, and I knew she was safe, but then I didn't have to My anxiety didn't get all the way high as it has before with situations like this. Seven is actually pretty good compared to what it had been before. And then you not allowing me to you disrupting my need for compulsions for the check-ins really helped. And so then by the time I did see her, I was like, okay, that was that was okay. And then that wasn't the that was not the only time that she went out of my sight. No, but I will say on the next several days. If I wanted to for you, if I wanted to push that ERP with you, because it was did we really want to? Well, we could have, but I could have had her stay away longer. wouldn't that have been just how exciting. You know, like another five or ten minutes. And I know your anxiety would have continued to rise and rise. But once again we talk about a time and a place. Yep. Yep. When we're in a crowded area on the pier, there's hundreds of people. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily the time or place to have you have a flow full blown panic attack. Sure. I would agree with that. So, you know, the so that you know, those are certain things that I have I think about. As this and also an important thought to have as the spouse of someone currently going through treatment as I am. And and treatment and you're going through as my spouse and as Avery's father too. And so you are having to think about things a little bit in a different way or from a different lens than even Avery and I do, being the ones that are you know, having the exposures and experiencing that anxiety and you know not engaging in the compulsions that we want to so badly. So it really does it, it really is a team effort and it really it it Our treatment and our success is. absolutely integral to you being part of it with us. To give you those exposures. Mm-hmm outside of and to the therapist offers. On top of it and say and finding the exposures, but then also getting us through them and on the other side of them. And then making sure that, like you said, is it the appropriate time and place? Is it the appropriate, is this the appropriate thing to do for ERP. Like you're always thinking about that. And and you've become a real expert in the in the area. And I think that that's what people listening to us now too can really benefit from, especially those who have loved ones with OCD, is you can come up with ways to to help. Yeah. It's got to be creative. Yeah. And know what what like I know what you struggle with. I know what our daughter struggles with. Mm-hmm. You know, so I can I can become creative with different scenarios. You know, and and some of them are in conjunction with our therapist, like you know, the road trip dri you driving up north on your by yourself. And you know, that's not something I necessarily thought about. You know, but you did that that that journey. you know, so like she's thinking about the bigger stuff for you. Absolutely. And I think about the stuff that can be in the moment. Sure. Yeah, which is which is And that's again it's a team effort. Our therapist has also been incredibly integral in my success, in Avery's success, in Mark being able to have this new lease on life that that he's had now, our son as well. And it wasn't, and like I said, it was not the only time that she was out of our sight. It was the first time on the 10 day trip. I also will say that that was the one and only time I felt my anxiety go that high. There were other times that that we didn't have her in our sight, and I was pretty okay. I was managing it pretty well. There was one night, you know, as we were driving up the coast, there's one night that she didn't want to go out to dinner. So we got her food and and we we allowed her to stay in the hotel room by yourself. And then you and I went to dinner. To dinner. Yeah. And that in the past would have been a A big a big piece. It's a whole new lease on life for all of us. Yeah. You know, and the one thing that you'd made sure that she did was to lock the hotel door. I mean, most hotel doors you have to have a key. Right. And again, I think that there's the way that the way that my brain works now is because I can be more present, I recognize those things that are like safety measures that all parents of teenagers think about or need to to take into account versus the absolute terror that I was feeling before when we would do certain things like that. I had one other moment. Yep. Once we got all the way up to Seattle, where I didn't see her and my suds went back up. And I recognized that really quickly. Yep. And then you and then I wanted to engage in the compulsions again and check in with you to make sure she's okay and ask you all the questions and and We didn't get there. Because once again at that time I don't think she had her phone on her either. Thank you. She did not. I was carrying it in my purse. And didn't even realize I had her phone. But but I will say she was only like two people ahead of us. She just happened to go in front of somebody. Okay. Yes, we know you're right. But she wasn't there in my sight. Yeah. And and I That was the only other moment I felt like my suds could have gotten higher than maybe a three or four. And then it had to come back down. And then by the end of the trip, I actually felt much more confident. And I felt like I didn't allow the unknown and the uncertainty of things to push me down so hard like it's done all my life to really embrace being able to have an enjoyable time on this trip. Like I'll give you an example. I I mean, some of the towns we stopped in were small, like Coos Bay was it's a tiny small town, it's a fishing town and you know, they don't have a lot of options as far as hotels and stuff. And you know, the one we picked was a ground floor and at the sliding door opened up to the outside. Mm-hmm. And when we pulled up to the hotel, you're like, no, we're not staying here because all of the all of the doors that we could see We're outside the e the doors going into the room, we're on the outside exposed to the Yes. You know, and and you think about that more as like a safety thing for me, I'm like, yeah, it's not a big deal. And in my head, it's it's unsafe. And if something's unsafe, somebody will die. Yeah. But OCD and the brain really when I start to think about this and start to say it out loud like we do on this podcast. It can really do some crazy things to you. I mean it lies to you all the time. It does. And and it really, now that I see it from a different lens, the treatment version of the treatment lens of it all, it's so hard to think about the way that I used to live. And I'm so glad that I have had this opportunity to get treatment. I'm so glad that I've embraced it the way that I have. I'm so glad that you have been my support and all of this and our our therapist as well. I couldn't have done it without either one of you. I I'm so grateful for I've said it again, I'm gonna say it again, for this new lease on life because that is essentially what it is. And when you go on a trip the way we just did and you feel so differently about it in all the positive ways, it really impacts you even more. Like one we we went to the air museum in Seattle. And I mean, at this point she's with her friend. We've met her parents. We're all hanging out together, all six of us, and you know, we're walking around the air museum and and at one point the girls are off together. Uh-huh. You know, her parents are off together, we're off together, but you're still present in the moment. With you. With me. Yeah. Us looking at the airplanes, talking about them. You know, there was a part of the the the museum where they had all the different, you know, stewardess outfits and flight attendant outfits and over the history of different airlines and everything. But you were present in that and you were thinking about that Miles would have really liked this versus worrying about where's Avery at in this large complex. Mm-hmm. That that would never have happened before. No, I know that. No, those were some moments that I take away and and and have some pride for myself and for how far I've come, knowing that that those moments did not affect me as negatively as as they would have before. And that the the intrusive thoughts and the compulsions don't have to win. Yeah. Which is which is huge. Mm-hmm. You know, and and then after that we went to the Space Needle and that was an enjoyable time and the girls got away from your site too. Mm-hmm. Avery was excellent at providing me with the ERP. Yep. Throughout throughout a lot of the trip. Yeah. and there was even a point when in a story where she didn't want to go out and get a bite to eat. And so we got her food in again. Mm-hmm. And you and I, I mean, that was at that point I knew you were gonna be good to go. Yeah. But when you don't know towns and stuff, you ask people, hey, what's good food? And you know, they had talked about a brewery. So we went to that brewery, but the outside of it did not look like anything like the inside, and you weren't sure about the actual brewery. No, because I let my fear and my intrusive thoughts get to me again. I let the idea of the uncertainty wanting to hold me back again and be like, Nope, sorry, can't do this. But instead I'm pushing through that. Yeah. And that's what I I the reason why I brought that one up is because you did push through it. We opened up the the door into the restaurant and it was a beautiful little restaurant on the the water river and we could see boats and you know and it was yummy food. It was really nice. Yeah. It's great. You some good beer and you know, it w it was a really enjoyable time. We actually could have a conversation. And I was presence with you with then too. Yeah. And the only reason why I say those things is because i if if you're listening to this and you have a spouse that's going through that has O C D and hasn't started treatment or is thinking about it, what freedoms you gain from it are in are it's it's unmeasurable. But one of the things you have to do is put in the effort. Because I do know that it has not been easy for you. No. Anybody trying to make a change, you know, it's very difficult. It's almost like an addiction. It becomes that. And and and I've we've talked about this phrase before too, which is that you can you you really have to be prepared to commit to the exhaustion because it gets exhausting. Yeah. It gets tiring. It gets to the point where you just want to bail and okay, I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. But if you just go that one next step. It's like a hurdle you jump over and then there then it gets easier and it's so much better on the other side. But you have to be able to commit to being exhausted and and it works best if you can find someone, in this case I have you, babe, that commits to that exhaustion with me and allows for that growth and that healing to take place. You know, there was even even a one of the beaches we stopped at. And and usually in the past, if it was something that you didn't feel comfortable doing, you would have shut it down. Mm-hmm. You actually Hard charged it through the the rocks, made it through it, got down to the water. You know, Avery wanted to see some of the tide poles and stuff, but with the rock would the the the coral was more slippery, you know, type of thing. So that when you didn't want to go on, you stayed on the beach. But her and I went and we looked around and stuff, where before you would have been like eagle eye. And nobody's going because it didn't feel safe. Yeah. Yeah. And you would have been eagle eye if we did go. And you would have said something or called or you know, to make sure or I would have let my anxiety get so I would the panic would have set in. And then the other emotions kind of follow suit. And then no one's having fun anymore. Yeah. And I recall other trips that we've taken where that has happened. And I'm beyond grateful. I can't even put it into words that this was such a different caliber of trip. And I foresee the next one now being very similar and the next one being similar. And it is such a exciting I I could start happy tear crying right now because it's so exciting. I'm excited for what life brings next, despite how uncertain it is. And that is something that I have never, ever, ever felt before. And I know right now we're sitting here, we're talking about the trip and we're talking about some of the ERP and stuff, but For us, it was such a a it was a big test for me. And you and I had talked about it before us going. Like I was nervous and you know, how is this actually gonna turn out? And you were a little nervous too, like how you know how my mental compulsions gonna, you know, wander and do their thing. And so after the first night it was kind of like, okay. Mm-hmm. We're good. Mm-hmm. It it's gonna be good. And even after the the first night that Avery stayed in the hotel, you know, while we went and, you know, had dinner, it was like, this is a very different trip. Mm-hmm. You were present, you were having fun, the three of us were laughing. Yep. We're actually enjoying the time. Mm-hmm. You know, and it was like, okay. Yeah. And and we even get went to the Redwoods. Yes. And I stop and I pull in this this place. It's a dirt road and you know, it was a three mile loop. Uh-huh. And in the past, you would never have allowed us to do that. Or if you did. Uh-huh. The panic would have sent in. The panic would have sent stepped in and you would have had asked me twenty eight different questions along the three mile loop. Are we okay? What's gonna hap what have this happens? What if that happens? Or, you know, Like you would have been just coming out of your skin where that three mile loop you actually enjoyed being in the Redwoods. I know. It was unlike anything I had experienced before, the whole trip, being that I didn't feel the same that I have been feeling for way too freaking long. And And a road trip is kind of like a bunch of little surprises along the way. And you don't like surprises. I hate surprises. And most people with OCD hate surprises as well. I again want the stats on that. If anyone has that, please connect with us and let me know. Because I'd love to get some information on that. Yeah. You don't like surprises like that loop would have been a big it was a big surprise, you know, like w it was an unknown. Mm-hmm. You know, and and you did it. And Avery absolutely loved it. She wants to live there. Yep. Which you can't 'cause it's a national park and well but you would. There are obstacles, you know. Yeah. So, you know, I I felt this trip was out of our twenty two years. Mm-hmm. This was the best trip we've ever had. Yes. I'm just I'm sad our son missed it with us because This would have been a really fun one for him to have gone on with us too, given the n the nature of it and and how different it felt. But yeah. But we got more. We got more. We do. We have a lot more. And he's growing up and kind of spreading his wings too, which is appropriate and he as he should be. And I didn't think about or I guess I did think about it, that would I be more worried about leaving Miles behind, would I be more worried about Avery leaving my sight? Either way, they're out of my sight and my gosh, they're gonna die. And surprisingly I didn't feel that. Much at all. A little. But I managed through it without compulsing. So it was successful and a lot of fun. And I'm really glad we went. Now I feel more comfortable to do bigger Yeah. As do I. Adventures. As do I. You know, I mean, you were even willing to go on a sailboat in Seattle. I was. That's how much I love you. Well, it was a big boat though. It was seventy five feet. Doesn't matter. So You know. We didn't do it though. I understand. But we had other people. I wouldn't I didn't know the other people and if they would want to do that or not. Not everybody wants to go sailing on a sailboat. I understand. But I would have done it for you. And and that's something big for me too, because I my the panic would have set in and It's ex it's exhausting to think about. And so now without that element of it, it just feels good. I even think about some of our past trips. Like if you had the ERP early on in our marriage and stuff, what would some of our other trips have been like? I know. And it's not even like I think about like our our honeymoon and some of the other smaller trips that we did when we were younger. Mm-hmm. I would never have recognized any OCD components in the shop. And I cause neither one of us realized that that's what was happening. Was but were you doing those things during those trips? We didn't have kids at that time, so there was less things to worry about. And we were together all the time and it was just you and I. So I think there was a lot of checking in and a lot of reassurance seeking that you didn't catch as O C D that I didn't catch as O C D and a lot of are you sure this is okay? Do you think this will be all right? And we're new to our we're new in our marriage and everything too, so Exactly. You know? Exactly. And there's just blinded by the love. boy. Now we're really dating ourselves now. boy. It was a good trip and and it was a good opportunity to spread well, it was a good opportunity to try more ERP in a different way than we've done it so far. And I think it really helped and it was really to our benefit that we did that. Even the last day of our trip, you know, I you were awake and I woke up at like three thirty in the morning. 'Cause once again, your hotel beds are not like your own bed. You know, you don't sleep as well. And I was like, woke up and I you know, we had another day of just driving. We weren't gonna stop and see anything. And I told you, I'm like, Hey, you wanna just drive back home? Mm-hmm. Which was like a thirteen and a half hour drive. And in the past, you would have said, that was that's too much, you couldn't do that, you know. But we did it. We look packed up the car really quick, we jumped in it and now we've We've it's we did it. Yeah. So it was a great trip. It was. It really was. And I'm happy with the way it it turned out. And I'm happy with what we were able to do on that trip. So that was really good. I did want to like segue a little into a different topic just because I think it's really important and I don't wanna I don't want it to get away from us where we don't talk about it. which is that a lot of w which because I've discussed this, I have some physical manifestations of OCD and some of that comes with checking in and reish getting reassurance from other people, but a lot of what my OCD comes down to are mental compulsions. And that's why again it was hidden. And I do a lot of ruminating. And I know on a previous episode, just a recent episode, I talked about how I had to have my own accountability for my mental compulsions, which I have also been working really, really diligently at. And I One of the ways, and I hope that I explained this correctly, and I think this is a topic that's definitely worth some more discussion because it is one of the hardest for me to break because I don't necessarily have Mark's full I can't see it. Yeah. If you can't see it and you don't know that I'm doing it, you can't kind of step in and help me with those compulsions. And so I just I let it get away from me. and so one of the ways that with my therapist, we've we've talked about working through the mental compulsions, the ERP for that is basically you have to kind of say the opposite of what my compulsion is. If that makes sense. So for example, if I have a compulsion where I don't feel like I've left a conversation with someone, whether it was one of our previous employees or or one of our kids or a stranger on the street, if I don't feel like I've left that conversation just right and I have this need to go back and check in with that person, say something else to that person, text them, et cetera. If I don't feel like I've left it just right, I will have to If I part of it would be I would do a compulsion as of the of that nature, or I would say, No, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm all right. You're all right. And this was very ritualized for me. And I would have to go through this very structured dialogue in my head to tell myself that I was okay, to calm myself down, to bring myself down. and and it was again, I had to do it in order to feel okay. And now I go, okay, so maybe I didn't leave that conversation feeling just right. Are they gonna be mad at me? Are they gonna hate me? Maybe. They might. Yeah, they will. And I have to sit in that. And that's the discomfort that I have to sit in because that's the thought that disrupts the previous compulsion that I've had, the ritualized dialogue. It interrupts it. And so then I have to sit with that discomfort and wait for that anxiety to go down on its own. And that has been very honestly with everyone, one of the most challenging parts of my journey. is disrupting my own mental compulsions and not allowing myself to engage in them because I can't do it with other people. Like it has to be me. Yeah, it's it's something I cannot see. I can't see her doing it. you know, it it's it's undercover. It's just a loop in my brain. It's a loop in my brain that never stops. And the need for that ritualized dialogue or those ritualized comments that I have to make to myself every time I feel like I've left a conversation. not feeling just right, took up so much of my time, energy, brain, all of it. And now I have this strategy, which I essentially, yeah, maybe they will. Maybe they will dislike me. Maybe I did say that wrong. Maybe I will die. Maybe I will die. Oof. Ugh. Anyway, it's fine. But I have to give myself I have to disrupt my own mental compulsions. And that's how I've done it. And that's the way that Mark and I have talked about the best way for me to do that. And and my therapist and I have talked extensively about that's the best way for me to do that, is I have to find some way to disrupt the mental compulsion. And I hope that I'm doing that strategy justice by explaining it the way that I am, because that's what I've been doing. And that does tend to help. And it allows me to sit in that uncertainty. And and your anxiety. And my anxiety goes up because I'm like, my gosh, I can't I can't do any more mental compulsions. I can't tell myself I'm okay. I can't check back in with that person. So now I just have to sit here and think about I have to sit here and realize I'm uncomfortable or I'm uncertain. And while that brings my anxiety up, then I have to let myself just come calm down. Now I have gotten some practice with this. I have to say, I have been really hoping and trying to embrace as many opportunities as I can to engage in this particular strategy so that I can break it. And hopefully it's working. I feel like it is. I don't live in my head as much. You don't ask me about different things really anymore. Because I think you are Meaning. Like, what would I ask you? You would ask me, like, well, what do you think about this conversation? Do you think I ended it well? Do I did it? Like, you don't ask me those things anymore that Well, I'd have to have you read all my text messages, yeah, my emails before I would send them. You know, so those are but you know, those are things that I could see, but those are mental compulsions too that I wouldn't necessarily be able to say, like I sent it and my goodness, that that wasn't right. That wasn't right. You would go through that and you would ask me and then you would show it to me like this is what I sent. Do you think this was okay? You don't do that anymore. No, because we've disrupted that checking in reassurance cycle with the strategies we've put into place. And so now I have to take it upon myself to disrupt the cycle of mental compulsions. And I really embrace the opportunities when they come up. It's hard. And sometimes I get caught in the loop and I don't even realize it. And then I It's like it's like somebody daydreaming. But yeah, it kind of is. But it's just this constant loop and in in my head and it's always worry and panic and and I don't I mean, I can happily say again, I don't live as much like that. And even though I still get caught in those moments, I do try to do better now. And I know what those moments are and I know where it's coming from. It's taking i i you catch it a lot quicker too. I you know, when when you and I talk about it something like one of them, you know, after the fact. You know, like like you were at the pool and the lady and you did it three times without noticing it, but you noticed it then and you stopped. Like those are getting yeah the the the amount of time yes the amount of time you're catching it is reducing. You start you still might be doing it, but you're reducing the amount of times you're yes you're and in that case it's so interesting because the I suppose you're right, the the compulsion really starts with the need to replay the conversation in my head. And then I go into this mental ritualized dialogue of, no, I'm okay. I'm all right because this is what I said and everything's fine. And if it's not, then that's you know, it it's okay. It's gonna be fine. It'll be all right. And now I go, Well, maybe it isn't. I mean, you're you're playing a story in your head. Yeah. That's not true. Yes. And you have to stop that yes story, which you're doing a lot better with. I think so. I did feel like it was a nice time to today on on this episode again to revisit the mental compulsions. And I think it's worth even more conversation because it really is the the hidden challenge of OCD and and how so many people can live with O C D for so long without even recognizing it. Because OCD is more than just that hand washing or I mean the You know, they could be tapping, like Avery does tapping and she's gotta touch the doorknob so many times. And like those are physical OCD aspects, but there are so many mental ones too that that we cannot see. Right. A therapist cannot see. Exactly. You know, you gotta have to kind of tell on yourself. And that's like where you and I go to therapy, there would be times that I would say something that would trigger like maybe this is an O C D thing. For a therapist and you, you know. a hundred percent. You know, and and now I kind of look out for some of those things too. Yep. You know, and I look at it more like for Avery too. Mm-hmm. You know, I think both you and I do too. We do. With with her. We do. You know, is that a mental compulsion or you know, it is she doing something that we don't necessarily see or try to see it. Which is why I think Podcasts like ours and others that we listen to and and enjoy because we're a part of this community are so important to raise awareness of OCD, to talk about the different types of OCD, to discuss both sides. For example, I have OCD, Mark doesn't, but he has been supporting me in this journey. And that's a that's a really big deal and a really big part of what this community could grow into. is the support for those who have OCD. And we're just continuing to be so grateful for our listeners for the episodes that we've done so far. certainly for our own journey and and being able to share it and hoping that it impacts other people in a positive way. Yep. You know, so if you are a regular listener, you know, please follow with whatever platform you're on so you keep getting our podcasts on a regular basis. You know, we like to, you know, support you as well if you are a follow a regular follower. So thank you for that. Absolutely. If you know anybody that can benefit, you know, share our episode with them and let them know, hey, look, you know, this is more than just you or you know, your loved one, you know, other people are going through it too. And hopefully if you are listening or a regular listener, that some of the things that we have been saying are like, yeah, you can resonate with you. You know, so we do appreciate that. We know there are people that are out there that are regular listeners because every time I look, you know, the day we drop it, there's two or three people that have already listened to our episode. And, you know, I drop it pretty early for for us. I drop it at two o'clock in the morning. You know, so by the time I wake up, you know, there's already several listeners to the the episode. So we do appreciate you if you're those early morning. Absolutely do. And we're we're honored that you're out there listening to our story and our journey and and again, we just want to be a part of this community to raise awareness for for what O C D is and what it can do and and being on the other side of of an ERP journey. So Thank you again, everyone, for living uncertain with us every day. And have a great day. Marc & Stacee: Thank you for joining us on today's episode and Living Uncertain with us. We are not therapists and this podcast is intended to provide information and support. It should not replace traditional means of seeking help from a licensed mental health professional. If you like this episode or would like to hear more, please like, subscribe or share with someone you think may benefit. Here at Living Uncertain, we're building a community of support. If you and your significant other would like to share your story, we would love to have you on the podcast. Please click on the link in the episode description and fill out the interest form.