Latest / Faith Rehab / Ep. 16 - Are You Emotionally and Spiritually Healthy?

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Ep. 16 - Are You Emotionally and Spiritually Healthy? · Faith Rehab

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, thanks for tuning in today to Faith Rehab Podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Today we're going to be talking about the 10 symptoms of a mostly unhealthy spirituality.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's just like a really great opportunity for us to kind of evaluate where we're at with some things.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end, Steve is going to tell us how we're all jackasses.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: In general.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Faith Rehab Podcast.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Real talk about church hurt, what's helped, and where are we headed?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Heidi Brandt, aka D M I Too High.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: I've been battling a cold, and so my voice is unusually low.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, my mom and my aunt who raised me both have very like low voices in the morning.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember being little and thinking, is there a man in the house?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like our moms.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: So wow.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I have that voice today.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder if your voice is affected by all those candy cigarettes that you smoke.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: Probably.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: You need to probably that's maybe you need to cut down to like one pack a day or something.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_04: That's what it is.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, my name is Christopher, aka CJ, former BMI Too High, Recovering Preachers Kid.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my fun fact my favorite movie and probably actor is Forrest Gump and Tom Hanks.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we just watched Apollo 13 earlier, and it's great.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's always lost by himself somewhere, and I feel like I'm always lost by myself.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_04: Do not travel with that guy because you're gonna get stuck somewhere.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: I am Steve McNitt.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: I am a former therapist, but I'm not your therapist.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_04: And my fun fact is that I have run two full marathons, 26.2 miles each time, and both the same event, but two years apart, called the Nike Women.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the Nike Women's Marathon.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, true story.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Are you the only man in the race?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_04: No, there were many men, but it was it was a very woman-centric event.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: I did it for the Leukemia Lymphoma Society.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: One year I was part of a micro team called We've Got the Runs.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I did 20 6.2 miles each time.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: And when you finish, you finish.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: There is a firefighter in a tuxedo who gives you a Tiffany necklace.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: So wow.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did they put it on you?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: No, they hand you a box.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: They could they would put it on you if you wanted, but I wasn't.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I was pretty sweaty and it would rain.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_04: The first one I ran, the last 13 miles, it rained on me.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I was in no mood for that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I gave the necklaces the first year I gave it to my mom, and the second year I gave it to my wife.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so I do not I have nothing to show for those.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: They say that running races is addicting.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like you run one race and you want to run another one.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: I ran one race and I thought this is the stupidest thing I've ever done.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: I never ran another race after that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I the only reason I did the second one, the first one I ran, and I remember hearing that less than four percent of all the people in America have ever done an endurance event like that.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I thought that's great.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: Less than four percent.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: And then I had a friend who wanted me to pace her in the last half of the California International Marathon, which is in Sacramento.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I paced her in the last half, and we were talking.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm as we got near the end, I go, Can you believe this?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna be one of the four percent that have ever done this.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_04: And the guy next to us running, he goes, only four percent ever do a second one.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I went, Dog god, you got the full only four percent.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: No, he said only four percent of all the people who run a marathon ever run a second one.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: Oh so then that's why I did a second one because you know I'm an idiot.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, how old were you?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_04: I was in my 50s, CJ.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's impressive.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I ran a 10k when I was in my like when I was like 30.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And when I looked at the times they put you in the age group that you're in and your rank, I was dead last.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: 300 of 300, and I thought I did pretty good.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not a runner.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: You were being like chased by the van that picks you up.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's happened to me, but let me help you, CJ.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_04: You were 300 of 300 that finished.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_04: All the people that dropped out, you're ahead of them.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: So you got that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, man.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, so what are we talking about today, Steve?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_04: Today we are gonna go through something that I'm really excited about, even though it's a little negative.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's from a book called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's a fantastic book.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: I read it, I've recommended it to several people.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_04: I sent Heidi a copy, it's by a guy named Peter Schazero, and you everyone should buy it, everyone should read it.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: They are not sponsoring us.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: I get no kickback from that yet, yet, Peter.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: Hook us up, brother.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but there's a checklist in here uh about whether or not you're healthy.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: So stay tuned.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go through the steps and let's see how you're doing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: Add it up today.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Which I read, I've underlined almost every word.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know why I underlined when I'm underlining almost every word, but I did.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: And it's fantastic.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: But it starts off with this chapter that's called The Top 10 Symptoms of Emotionally Unhealthy Spirituality.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: So today I thought what we might do is go through, there's 10 of them, so we're gonna have to go kind of quick, but what I thought what we might do is have all of us kind of read and then think about, and this may be an episode you want to listen to a couple of times, and think through how am I doing in this area?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: So these are 10 symptoms of things that are unhealthy.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: Now, because we talk about church hurt, I kind of want to challenge us today to think about it in terms of ourselves.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's easy to point the finger at other people and go, yeah, my pastor does that, yeah, your pastor does that, your grandmother does that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: But let's challenge ourselves to kind of focus on that.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: We can't help the parallel because we're talking about church.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: So if you get through this list and go, my church is jacked, well, then you know, let's talk about what to do about that.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: But also to be thinking, how am I using my own spirituality?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I think about our lives in terms of we have our physical health, our emotional health, our spiritual health, and our social health.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_04: And all four of those, if you think about like a bar stool with four legs, if any of those get out of whack, we get out of whack.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we think a lot about our physical health.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: Some of us think a lot about our emotional health, lots of us think about our social health, and today we're going to talk about our spiritual health.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: I think it sounds good.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think I don't think about my physical health enough.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought I was I fell off of a bar stool once.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's not what we're talking about.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're focused on the metaphor, Heidi.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_04: Heidi, that is good, and I'm sure your sponsor will know one that know all about that.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: That was funny.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, okay.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_04: So we're ready to go.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, we're ready.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_04: Symptoms of an emotionally unhealthy spirituality.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_04: Here's the first one, and this is a hard one.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_04: Using God to run from God.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, using God to run from God when I create a great deal of God activity and ignore difficult things in my life that God wants to work on.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: So instead of like transforming into being more godly, I just do a lot of God's stuff.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: When I do God's um work instead of spending time with him, when I uh my prayers are really about not following God's will, but God, here's my will.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: I hope you'll bless it.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, things like when I use his truth to judge and devalue others.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when I hold up a scripture and go, see, you're screwing up.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: When I pronounce that the Lord told me to do this, but it's really something I just feel very strongly about, and I just really want to do it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: Or even more so, when the Lord told me you should do this, it's sort of using God as a weapon, like a something that I'm attacking you with.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so this is like volunteering for every ministry, so you don't have to sit in the message or actually face your own relationship with God.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're just kind of just serving all the time, or or even like praying at problems instead of facing them.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: Heidi, any thoughts on that?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: She's still recovering from falling off the barstool.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's a head injury.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_04: We'll we'll look into that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: One of the things that I I think that is hard in this is that we have this idea sometimes that if I'm doing God's work, I'm doing godly things.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: Like if I put on, you know, one shirt, I'll get warm.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_04: If I put on two shirts, I'll get warmer.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: And if I just put them all on, look how warm I'm gonna be.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_04: That may be a bad analogy, but I I sometimes we think if I do godly things, I become godly.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_04: And the truth is, if you do godly things, what you become is busy.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: And if you do God-honoring things because God asked you to, you become faithful.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: If you do have disciplines that help you spend time with God, like you guys know, I walk almost every day, I never listen to ear pods or anything like that.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: It's me and God, and believe me, he's frustrated by how ADD I am, how wandering the conversation is, but it's me and God, and we're praying that I design that time for that.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: You guys know it's not a hundred percent because sometimes I'm sending you a mark of polo that's most of the time, actually.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is a perfect example of me working for the church for four years and not feel I don't really feel like I had slowed down to talk to what God really wants me to do here.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just worked, work, work, work, work.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Even when I was sitting in a sermon to attend the sermon, I'm just thinking about everything else, you know?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I like try to try to justify hey, I'm I'm doing the ministry, I should be good, but I never slowed down.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think one of the fixes, like what Steve does, build in a silent time with no agenda just to like sit and slow down.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, CJ and I started this practice that neither one of us are great at, but we decided we were gonna go through a devotional, and every day we would just text each other a verse because it makes you process.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'm it's not like, hey, CJ, here's what you need to do with your life.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's more like I'm processing, here's some thoughts.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: And mine are very short, CJ's are very deep.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I do it less, but I write a lot.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I know when I was teaching pastor, there were times when my entire time with God was sermon prep.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that there was something wrong with that.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm not giving from the overflow of what God's teaching me.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to come up with this really good talk so I can teach other people.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: Let's move on.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_04: Number two, by the way, if you didn't hear that, don't edit that out.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: CJ's Dogs had something to say.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: I think that was Amen.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: That was Amen.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: Umber two, ignoring the emotions of anger, sadness, and fear.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_04: Many of us Christians believe wholeheartedly that anger, sadness, and fear are sins to be avoided.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: Anger is dangerous and unloving towards others.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: Sadness indicates a lack of faith.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if we really love God, why would we be sad?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: And fear, you know, there's so many verses in the Bible that say, fear not, do not fear.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: If we ever feel that, it feels like a betrayal to God.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I think that is a sign of unhealthy spirituality because it devalues the emotions.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_04: And if God created us in his image, it came with emotions.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: This reminds me of an episode we had with Dina.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh go listen to that one.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: But she talks about the elephant.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're the person on top of the elephant, and all your logic and brain work is in your yourself, but your emotion is this elephant that you're riding.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if that elephant gets spooked or goes a certain way, that you can't really do anything except for ride that emotion out.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think this number two is like, how are you doing?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you constantly do that, even though you're not.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you just tell your family and friends, uh, I'm blessed, I can't complain.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Too blessed to be stressed.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: But what Dina was talking about, you need to take hold of that emotion and have the elephant calm down before you could really move on and control anything, really.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: And if we suppress and repress our emotions, they come out somewhere.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_04: They that we have to express them.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: And because they come out in our bodies, we have to express them with our bodies.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes that's words, sometimes that's actions, sometimes that's just something.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes people go running to relieve all of the anger and stress in them, you know.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: The other thing that I have thought since CJ sort of brought up what are some anecdotes?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when I've gone through really hard times, really difficult times in my life, I've decided to read through the Psalms.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the Psalms are the emotions of the Bible.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's psalms in there, you know, my favorite psalm is Psalm 13, which starts out, How long, O Lord, will you forget me forever?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: How long will you let my enemies, you know, trample over me?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's not joy.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's not the I've got the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's not that.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's really wrestling.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_04: And David, who wrote that, is a guy who had an affair, had murdered somebody, her husband, um, and really knew, you know, things like to say, create in me a new heart, God.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's something so healthy about a full expression of the emotions that God has given us.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: If anything, like Psalm 62, pour out your heart before him.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta pour it out to somebody, and if you don't have anybody, pour it out to God, be honest with yourself and name it.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: He can handle it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like he can handle your disappointment with him, he can handle your anger at other people and him, he can handle your joy, he can handle your peace, he can handle your fear.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the Bible says fear not so many times because we fear a lot, and there's lots of things, and I don't know about you, but if I I don't watch scary movies, but if I want to get scared, I'll watch the news.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because the news is is not pretty.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: And when I watch the news, it reminds me, fear not, I am with you, you know, even to the end of age.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: I I love that verse.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: All right, number three is dying to the wrong things.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus did say if anyone would come after me, he must die.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh he must deny himself, pick up its cross, you know, and follow me.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, sometimes we take that to mean, hey, deny yourself and everything about it.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: You know, deny your urges, deny your physical, emotional, spiritual, social needs.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_04: Come follow Jesus, do the things at the church, be whatever we need you to be.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: Just, you know, if you really love God, you'll just deny yourself in all the parts.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, what's the toxic part of that?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: I I think it we take on like uh a martyr kind of posture, and our identity becomes wrapped in that, which in my mind, then it just becomes like denial is emotional insulation.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Denial is I don't want to feel the full effect of what this impact could have on me.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just gonna ignore it or avoid it.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that when we kind of take on that martyr mentality, we're doing it so that we don't have to deal with the full scope of what's in front of us.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we might be a person in the church whose husband has cheated on them repeatedly and she stays married because that's what God calls her to do, and it keeps her in that story instead of confronting the things that need to be confronted because of fear.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: What could that mean?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: What would the implications be if I actually faced that?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then when their identity gets wrapped in it, they're affirmed like, look at her, she's amazing, she puts up with so much, and it feels really good, and it again keeps us from ever having to face what's really going on inside.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, that's good.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's just an example.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's a good example.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think that sometimes we feel like if we deny that that's like uh superpower, like that's the real gift.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that when faith tradition calls us to deny ourselves, I think it doesn't mean deny everything.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't mean deny like the godly desire that God has put in your heart for joy and peace and beauty and um relationship and intimacy.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: Don't deny that.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there are things I should deny because my heart, you know, people say follow your heart.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: My heart's not that great.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_04: My heart is can be very petty, my heart can be very greedy, my heart can be like, I want revenge.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that part I should deny.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I probably shouldn't, you know, go get, hey, deny.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_04: I I I shouldn't follow my heart when it's time to like go get revenge.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: That part I should deny and maybe do some of the things like Jesus said, like, oh, I don't know, forgive 70 times seven times.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_04: That's probably a better thing to deny than like let's deny everything, just deny yourself and go set up those chairs, deny yourself and come to this service you don't want to come to.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: Deny yourself and really just put on a happy face because God forbid people at church know that you're struggling.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that there's something very unhealthy about that.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of um problems in the church could be solved by one thing sleep.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people are denying rest in the church, and they just like, I'm gonna keep going for Christ, I'm gonna keep doing it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need a sabbatical, I don't need a day off, just go, go, go.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but if you like, this is a dumb example, but everyone knows that I'm trying to play chess more, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've been sleep deprived this week for four nights.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think four all-nighters for don't ask me why it's not healthy.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Last night, my son beat me in chess for the first time.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and I'm like, this is what you do to your brain if you don't rest.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: You lose to someone.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he's getting better.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, he is getting better, but in my mind, I'm like, I need to sleep.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: But don't deny your rest, church folk.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, God rested and he's God.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta rest.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: That was actually a big change that they made when Josh left his the church we were at together, and now he's a pastor of a different church.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: They have certain requirements about how many Sundays he has to take off.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: And good on them.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they're very strict about that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: They protect his rest.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're a church leader who's not resting, make sure you've got a team of people behind you who are making sure that you're taking that time to rest.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a great point because I think people sometimes, especially in ministry or or small group leaders or whatever, think this is part of my calling.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like I'm here and no one else will do it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe if the Lord brought up more people, yeah, but I you know, as somebody who teaches and coaches uh church leadership, I'll tell you that's not God, that's you.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_04: You need to equip some people.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: All right, let's move on.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: Number four denying the past.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: Thank I yeah, we need a little intro like that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: What are we on?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: Number four drum roll.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there we go.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: Denying the past's impact on the present, denying your past's impact on the present.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, Paul writes this the old has gone, the new has come, and sometimes we Think I've been saved and now I'm free.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: And um, sometimes we look at our lives and go, I'm a new creation, I'm a new creature.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so we deny the impact of the past.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: And and so what happens then?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: What why is that bad?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in my experience and most of the people that I talk to, when they when you go to recovery, you look back to go forward and you you work things out that you never thought you had to.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because we have grace, we should be able to look back and work things out that are not unsettled.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like like I'm just moving forward from here and not really worrying about all the the burden and the the um baggage that you're bringing to the situation.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: If we deny that our past has anything to do with our present or future, yeah, yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: But we all bring our past with us.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So ignoring all that, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is not ignoring it is unhealthy.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So in the spirit of vulnerability, because this is real talk, I was having an affair four years after Josh and I were married that lasted a year long.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: And when I told Josh the truth, his response was no one can know about this at church because he felt like it threatened his job position.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if people know this, are they gonna send us away?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what's gonna happen?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it became very easy for me to just sweep it under the rug and never deal with the symptoms that led us to that point.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like we got six weeks of therapy paid for by the church, which we went to.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: We said everything we needed to say to get through it, to say we did the marital counseling and never dealt with it after that.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it became a cancer in our marriage because it was a secret.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: And what do they say in recovery?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: You're only as sick as your secrets.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: And when all that stuff stays underground, it's it impacts you.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: And when you deny what's impacting you, you can't show up in God's grace.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're showing up in a way that you're trying to control the narrative so everyone stays protected, and that's dangerous.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, thank you for sharing that.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's huge.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: I think when we talk about our past, I was raised predominantly by a single mom.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: And for a season, she remarried to a guy who was pretty angry, and his method of of uh discipline was yelling and whatnot.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I didn't I didn't really learn, like a lot of men, I didn't really learn how to manage my anger.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so when I was a dad, became a dad, I was very angry.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_04: I wasn't angry at the kids, I wasn't angry at Susie.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: I was angry when I got disrespected, or I was angry when I asked you, you little two-year-old, to go do something and you didn't do it.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: I would get very angry about that.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: And so I had to really wrestle with that anger in my parenting and in my relationship with my kids.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: And no amount of Jesus changed that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: What Jesus did was give me a target and go, okay, Jesus got angry.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_04: I guess it's okay.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: There's plenty of anger verses in the Psalms.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: But the thing that stuck with me is this verse that says, Be angry, but sin not.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like be angry.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: But how you play this out shouldn't be abusing your kids, which I wasn't, but it shouldn't be hurting your kids, shouldn't be hurting your marriage, shouldn't be, you know, how do I get be angry and then figure out how to deal with it?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: And um a friend of mine and I went through this, and a real God-honoring man, we went through this workbook together.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't even know the name of it now, but was really helpful.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: And so we do sometimes try to repress the feeling when really what we should be doing is trying to find healthy ways to express the feeling.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, this is why everyone needs a therapist or a coach or a someone that you respect and you honor that will help you go through that.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: Number five.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: That was like radio.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: Dividing our lives into secular and sacred compartments.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: One of the greatest scandals of our day is that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles, every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, sexually immoral as the world in general.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just quoting from the book.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so these things are true.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: That church members divorce their spouses at the same rate as everyone else in the world.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: That church members beat their wives as at the same rate as everyone else in the world.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: Church members' giving patterns indicate that they're almost as materialistic as non-Christians, that somehow we think some things are sacred and some things are secular.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: And when we segment that, then it allows us to go, yeah, but I go to church, or you know what, I'm a church-going guy, or I'm a Christian, or I'm a what now, whatever.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_04: And and Bob Goff read wrote this great book called Love Does.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_04: And if God is love and we're trying to become like God, then that means it's going to show up in your behavior, your actions, your stuff.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: So when we look at our lives as this thing is secular, this thing is sacred, instead of the integrated part, yes, right.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_04: Where our lives, our heart, soul, mind, body, strength belong to God, then there is no sacred and and secular.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_04: There's only I'm trying to honor God the best I can.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and a good question to test yourself is would the people at your job recognize the version of you at church?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or in any other setting.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Or vice versa, right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: Would they be shocked by you at work?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that was a big thing for me.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just hope I'm the same person in every single setting.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's less stressful.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously, then you don't remember like who the version of.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I actually had friends tell me that there was church Heidi.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-oh.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I I was offended by it.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I didn't even know what you mean.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: And they say, yeah, like your voice modulates differently.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's just a certain and I it helped create an awareness around like how I was showing up at church was kind of this, you know, I'm a very bubbly upbeat person, but I definitely have a way of like turning it on to engage someone else that I don't think was always healthy.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and I think in certain situations, you need that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: You're a professional speaker, you're a coach, you know, you you can't show up and go, hey, I'm here to uh inspire you today, but my life sucks.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, you have to, you know, we have to segment some things that we can't be uh 100% real to everybody because not everyone is safe.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: There used to be this old saying kind of thing, and I'm I know I'm slow getting to it because I'm trying to remember exactly how it says, that if you were on trial for being a Christian, would you be convicted, assuming they couldn't use your Bible or your church as evidence?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so just the way you live your life, would would that be enough evidence that you really are trying to follow God?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: And there's something a little convicting about that.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: That's not meant to be guilt inspiring or anything like that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's more of a what am I actually doing to sort of live out these things that I'm trying to study and grow and transform?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I keep using that word transform because as we slowly change, we're gonna become more and more like Christ, hopefully.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_04: But we should make that as a target and let's keep working on that.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: All right, ready for the next?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: Number six.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Remember Phoebe and Friends when she got sick?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what I've had that good voice.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like use it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's use it right now.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: Number six.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_04: All right, number six, doing for God instead of being with God.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_04: This is similar to something we've already talked about.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but being productive and getting things done as our high priorities in our culture.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_04: Let's get things done.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_04: You ask people how they're doing, you know, number one answer is good.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: Number two answer is oh, I'm so busy.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then um people embody that as like a gift or something.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: And so the messages are clear.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_04: Doing lots of work for God is a sign of spiritual growth, or it's all up to you as a sign of you know how much God is using you that things will fall apart if we don't persevere, if we don't keep pushing forward, you know, God's it's gonna fall apart.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: And all of those things are signs, I think, of human doings, not human beings.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_04: And and our activity for God can only properly flow from a life with God.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I may have mentioned this uh earlier that sometimes when I was a teaching pastor, there were times, and I really tried to veer away from it, but there were times where my only time with God was to prepare for that sermon.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't flowing from God, it was because it was separate from God, if that makes any kind of sense.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: That if our life is gonna flow from God, then we have to have Him as you know our input and our our sustenance, if you will.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're one to serve a lot, ask yourself when was the last time you were serving and you enjoyed being with Him, or you enjoyed it.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: You enjoyed the like doing it for the Lord instead of just doing it well.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it goes back to the last one when our lives are fully integrated, the sacred and the secular, then driving becomes a spiritual practice.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Doing laundry becomes a spiritual practice.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like the ways that we show up in our everyday lives have more meaning because God meets us in all those places.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's not separate.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I just um signed up to be a youth leader again.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is like a big deal, you guys.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is a big deal.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: I found a church, I got involved, I'm I'm a youth leader again.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: I cannot tell you the the peace that I had showing up for the first meeting and the joy that I had because I'm doing it because I want to do it and I want to serve and I want to like it's just like totally different uh motives than when I was in ministry and felt like I had to do it.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: I enjoyed it and I know that you know, God's big enough to still work through people's lives when leaders show up tired and when leaders show up disengaged, right?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like God can still be met in those places, but what a different experience showing up like excited and and ready for a year of student ministry.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: So good job, Heidi.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, good job, Heidi.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I love that you said that, you know, in all of those to to go back to the the thing we said earlier about feelings that if God has called us to do something, let's do it and let's do it for him, and let's do it in a way where we show up, you know, filled with God.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: But that's not gonna be every week, and that would be completely normal.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there's gonna be you live in Chicago, there's gonna be snowy, sleety days, you know, after 15 days of snow and and whatever lake effect snow there is, and you're gonna go, I don't want to go.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so warm and cozy here at home.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: And youth group is on Sunday when like football is on.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well, there's there's a red flag for that church.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: Jeez.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: Just kidding.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm just picturing there, they're in Chicago, they're kind of between Chicago and Green Bay, and I'm just picturing they're having to pray for each other.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_04: You're a Green Bay fan, yeah.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: Well, how about dumb bears?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, um, let's keep moving.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_04: Seven.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_04: We had six.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have seven.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, six, seven.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I hear that more from Steve than my kids know.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone, yeah.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's unhealthy spirituality right there.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I love about it?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's so people are so over it.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_04: I get more eyes rolled at me now than I would have last year or the year before.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: And you love it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: I do love that.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sick.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, okay, number seven is this is a huge one, spiritualizing away conflict.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, spiritualizing away conflict.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I have this saying that I love that conflict is not the enemy, unresolved conflict is the enemy.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes in churches, small groups, ministry teams, we don't resolve conflicts, we just spiritualize them away.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that's he's going through a hard time.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: You know what?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: There's an issue in his life, or we'll pray for him, or whatever.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes we we then can turn that against people that some of us may be guilty of you know making promises we have no intention of keeping, or blaming people, or attacking them, or leaking some information under the the guise that we're gonna, hey, would you pray for CJ?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, he's going through stuff, and and that we're spiritualizing away the conflict rather than having the conflict.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: And when and and Jesus in his life, he disrupted the false peace around him.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_04: He refused to spiritualize away conflict, he confronted it and he often simplified it.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't necessarily about the thing, it was about our heart and soul.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a hundred percent easier not to make peace.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's why most of us don't.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a myth too, because if you don't make peace, you're gonna feel it later.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Steve says that that whole unresolved conflict thing to me a lot.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think it's starting to pick up in my life that I just gotta tackle conflict head on and make make that peace.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Peacemaking is work, just know that and go for it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_04: If you address the conflict when it happens or nearby when it happens, then you're not rolling it down the road where it's getting bigger and bigger and picking up other conflicts with it.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_04: You know, how many, how many couples have this fight where they go, Hey, could you do the toilet paper different?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what about when your mother was here and she was, you know, she said that's about my dinner and you didn't even, you know, say anything for me.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well, what about that one time at Christmas 17 years ago?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that rather than pick up more conflicts and try to have them all at once, have the little ones and just have them.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I do believe that God is a God of reconciliation.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's why he sent Jesus, it's why he gave us Ten Commandments, it's why he wanted, he didn't just squish human beings after the first sin.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: He said, We're I'm gonna have a relationship.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be messy, but there's gonna be forgiveness, and I think working out relationships is way holier and way harder than uh just kind of kicking it down the road and hope it goes away.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because what does Grace say that forgiveness is not the same thing as access or rec were we talking about reconciliation?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think no if we're being honest, conflict is gonna happen in the church with people, and there are gonna be some people that you're just not gonna have the same relationship with on the other side of it.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it doesn't mean it goes back to how things were, it doesn't mean that things even necessarily get better.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: It just means that we're addressing the thing that hurts, we're forgiving and we're moving on because it's it's not always tied in a nice neat bow.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and also conflict resolution, it looks different for everyone, right?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's some couples that fight like crazy and they're like, You good?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good, let's go.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like they didn't resolve it, but they're good, it's good for them, you know.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something like conflict?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't always mean uh holding hands, a skip down the road type thing.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I will say this and I had a a a guy who that I knew who was a surgeon, and he gave me this whole long TED talk, which I'll spare you.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_04: But it was essentially this that where you cut the skin, it creates scar tissue, and the scar tissue is healthier than all the other skin.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: Now it doesn't, you can't, it doesn't have sweat glands, and it won't, and the nerves die.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_04: So that in terms of conflict, if you can scar in a way that makes you healthier, that's a good conflict.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I had a friend who used to say that every good marital conflict should end up in bed, not as a way uh to solve it.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: Are you listening, Sam?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh not as a way to solve it, but as a way to like, we got so much better and healthier that the intimacy even grew.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I don't know, I'm not gonna stress people over that, but I will say that I like that.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: I I do think that the scar is hiding the scar tissue.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: The scar tissue, if you're having conflict and it makes you healthier and stronger, awesome.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I love that it doesn't have sweat glands, so you can't sweat the same thing, and that the nerves die, and that I will tell you, after 40 years of marriage, we fight about the same things that we've been fighting, we fought about 40 years ago.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: We just do it differently and hopefully with less frequency.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_04: All right, go ahead.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_04: Number eight, number eight, and we did a whole episode on this about the Netflix special, but this is covering over brokenness, weakness, and failure.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: That we cover over those things.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um that David knew the sacrifice of God are a broken spirit and a broken, contrite heart.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: And he says, Oh God, you will not despise.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_04: Those are all things he said.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry, I that was a quote from Psalm 51.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_04: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: Oh God, you will not despise.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: And God uh David, who wrote that, is a guy who had had an affair and then murdered her husband.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: And that Paul writes that in Christ we're made perfect in Christ, and that sometimes we try to cover over the things that are imperfect about us or about other people rather than saying they're becoming perfect in Christ.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_04: They're not perfect yet, they're becoming perfect in Christ.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to read this thing because it's it's maybe you've read it before, but I I love that God uses people that are imperfect.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_04: We don't need to cover over our weaknesses because God will use people that are imperfect.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_04: And it does say that Moses was a murderer, Hosea's wife was a prostitute, Peter rebuked God, Noah was a drunk, Jonah was a racist, Jacob was a liar, Mark was uh deserted by Paul, Elijah burned out, Jeremiah was depressed and suicidal, and it goes on and on and on that God used all of those people, not because they were perfect, but because he filled in the gap where they didn't have enough, God filled in the gap and he was able to use them.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: So not covering over our brokenness, weakness, and failure and trying to spiritualize it or saying, you know what, it it's all God.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we are broken people, we are imperfect people, and we shouldn't try to hide that.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: Even when, you know, as Heidi said earlier, there was an affair, and I don't know if you that was the right thing to keep it from everybody, but I do know sometimes we cover over things that we know about friends and family by spiritualizing it, and that that can be really unhealthy.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well said.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Number nine.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, I did the whole thing there.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I have no notes.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: Number nine, living without limits.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: That uh guilt often leads to discouragement.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: The core spiritual issue here relates to our limits as our human beings, that we are not God.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: That sometimes we it's unhealthy for us to think we have no limits, we have no abilities, we don't need rest, we don't need strength, we don't need joy, we don't need relationship, we just need God.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is people that say yes to everything, don't have a Sabbath, uh, they burn out.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, there's a quote that I wrote down Dallas Will uh Wilder Willard Professor Willard.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Dallas Willard.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hurry is the great enemy of spiritual life.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you're hurrying and hurrying and just saying yes to everything, the devil likes that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: The devil's like, I don't have to mess with him, he's already busy.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if he can't struggle with that.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_04: If he keeps us busy, then we can be ineffective.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm gonna read one more quote.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Parker Palmer says, Self-care is never a selfish act, it is simply good stewardship of the one gift I have.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_04: The gift that I was put here on earth to offer others that we can become selfish, sure, but self-care and taking care of ourselves physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially, that's good stewardship of the one and only life that God has given us.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I I like that.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: Love it.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: Number 10.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: Number 10.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_04: Judging other people's spiritual journey.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: That sometimes we're taught in the church that it's our job to correct other people, call out sin, confront, you know, uh the evil in the world, that kind of stuff.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_04: This guy, Peter Schazero, would say it's unhealthy to think it's my job to be calling out other people's problems.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: That's not my job.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_04: That's the Holy Spirit's job.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_04: The Holy Spirit's full-time job is to be calling us closer to Christ.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: But this is such a pervasive issue in our society, and I see it playing out on social media where people get on their platforms and I can be just as guilty of it.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the danger in that is we start creating an us versus them mentality, which is not what the community of God is supposed to be about at all.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: But somewhere along the line, Christians started getting the idea that being a Christ follower means that we have to evangelize and make more people Christians.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: Being Christ, being a Christian is being Christ-like.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: Being Christ-like means showing up in love, showing up without judgment, showing up as a safe, safe space.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: You want to know why we have all these issues in the church?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's because we we put it on other people instead of looking at ourselves in the mirror and going, okay, I can be just as guilty of the judgment and the hurting.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: I need to check myself and how I'm showing up in this space because I don't want to contribute to the dysfunction that is making people not want to go to church because they associate it with all the things that we talk about.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_04: So good.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's the list.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: That's the 10 symptoms of unhealthy spirituality.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I just want to say that if you find yourself on that list going check, check, check, um, if you didn't find any of those in you, then congratulations.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_04: You're doing better than me.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, if you found yourself sort of finding yourself in that list and there's a lot, I would just encourage you to get some get some help.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_04: Go to see a good therapist, get a coach, get a spiritual mentor, get somebody in your life that you can bounce that off of.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_04: Not that they're gonna have all ten and they've nailed it or anything, but but real talk about real things and can make a real difference.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I love that for all of us.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because we have a job to do, and some of us aren't doing it very well.
• 47:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, guys.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm just curious.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I do want to wrap up this whole episode with a story.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_04: Can I do that?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_04: Go for it.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we normally end with something lighter, and this may or may not be it, but here it is.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: There's a story uh in the the Bible where Jesus is gonna be coming into Jerusalem and he tells his disciples, hey, go find a donkey, and um this is gonna be like it's a brand new donkey, it's pretty young.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_04: Bring him to me.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna ride in on the donkey.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I was thinking about this story the other day from the donkey's point of view.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like the donkey is just sit, maybe because I'm a jackass, I don't know.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_04: But the donkey is like tied up, and all of a sudden the the disciples are looking for something special, and they find the donkey.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_04: And the donkey thinks, Wow, like I'm I'm kind of special.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so then they go back and they find Jesus and they put Jesus on the donkey, and the donkey is like, This is really cool, this guy's important.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: I this is my so fulfilling.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: Next thing you know, they're throwing jackets in front of the donkey, and they're waving palm fronds and they're singing in front of the donkey, and the donkey is thinking, This is the greatest thing.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the greatest donkey that ever lived.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_04: I'm amazing.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm amazing.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm the donkeyest of all the donkeys, and and the donkey then arrives in Jerusalem and they tie it up.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: And um, at the end of the day, you know what happens to the donkey?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_04: What?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: We never hear from the donkey again because this story is all about Jesus.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that when we're looking at our own spirituality and our own growth, we gotta make it all about Jesus.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_04: And if we're becoming like Jesus, then we're doing something really special and really great, and we're gonna do it imperfect, and we're gonna hit some of those boxes one through ten from time to time, but we got to keep moving and keep moving forward.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: And friends, I gotta just say that the more we keep moving and make it about Jesus, we get to do some really cool things.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_04: That donkey got to do something really cool.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_04: None of the rest of us has gotten to do, none of the rest of the donkeys in history have ever gotten to do.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_04: But if we make it about Jesus, we get to do some really cool stuff.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's a children's book.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: I know, or a Disney movie.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks for listening to our podcast.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_04: You guys are the best.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_04: Make sure you put like, subscribe, put in our comments, do all that stuff.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: And Heidi, be blessed.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Be blessed.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Be blessed.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.