Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / EP329 | Graham Jackson on Launching a Two-Decade Adventure in Overlanding

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EP329 | Graham Jackson on Launching a Two-Decade Adventure in Overlanding · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your host,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Ashley Giordano. And as Overland Journal approaches its 20-year anniversary,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: we're catching up with some of the people who have
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: helped shape this community, sharing the stories, lessons, and adventures
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: that brought us here. With that said, my guest today
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: is Graham Jackson, and he's been on this podcast before. Hello.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Welcome back.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, Ashley. A pleasure to be here.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm happy to celebrate 20 years. Wow, 20 years.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: It actually is that long. Yeah, it seems like yesterday
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: that I was writing for issue number one. But here
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: we are.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: And a special thanks to Honcook Tire for supporting this
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: week's podcast. What's it like when over 20,000 Jeeps and
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: more than 50,000 people get together in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee?
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: We joined Honcook Dynapro Tire to capture the awesome energy
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: of the 2026 14th annual Jeep Invasion. Keep an eye
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: on ExpeditionPortal.com for our upcoming event recap and get inspired.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Thanks again, Honcook.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Here we are. Yeah, let's talk about that. Also, I will,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: before we go forward, mention that I will include the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: last podcast episode that you did with Scott and Matt
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: in the show notes so people can listen to that
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: episode as well because it's quite great too.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thank you.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: But yeah. Yes. And yeah, first issue. Can you believe it?
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the first issue, that was a surprise to me
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: because Jonathan, I think, just reached out to me and said, hey,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: we're looking for the lead article for the issue number one.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: And we're Overland Journal. And I don't think I'd even
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: met him at that point. And yeah, we started talking.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I flew down to Phoenix. We met in Phoenix. And then, yeah,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: from there, it was my first experience working with an editor,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: which was great because he's an awesome editor. but also scary.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I tried to put the thing together and
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: he's like, you can have as much space as you
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: want up to 8,000 words or something like that. And
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: so I used all of them.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Wow. 8,000 words.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: That's long. It was big. Was it there? I mean,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to probably eat my words on
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: that one. I'm not sure if it was actually that long,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: but it's been 20 years. So yeah, I'll ask for
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: some forgiveness if that was a big if that was
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: a big, maybe it was 4,000 words. It was long.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: It's longer than your average article, right?
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: So. Sure. But it covered a big, big trip. So
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like every time I say, oh, the first issue,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, Graham Jackson's article about.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: About nine months in Africa.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: So, and that was opening up the West Coast route,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: which at the time was very unknown. We had planned
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: to go down the East Coast, but, um, That's right
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: when the Darfur conflict started and we had to divert
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to the West. And yeah, it was very unknown. It
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: was an exciting trip, but yeah, a lot of fun
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: to write about.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Tell me about the writing experience. Like, had you
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: been writing for quite a bit before that? Was that
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: kind of one of your first pieces? How did you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: put it all together?
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: So I started writing when I was a teenager. I
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: wrote two novels when I was in high school. So
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: writing wasn't a foreign to me. My mom edited them.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: because she was an English teacher. So that wasn't foreign
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: to me either. But trying to compress nine months into
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: a magazine article, I thought that was challenging. So I
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: just decided to sort of take snippets from different places
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: and tell a story about this one place and then
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: another story about this one place. And so it ended
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: up being a series of short stories about various things
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: that happened in various countries, which I think worked well.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that was my perspective. Jonathan seemed to like it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: So I guess it was okay.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: As long as your editor is happy.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. That's all you have to do, right? Is keep
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: your editor happy. Yeah. Hopefully, he was just on this podcast, right?
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: And we haven't seen his drop yet. So you're the
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: only one who knows what he said.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: All good things. I read that you had to convince
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: your wife to go on that trip to Africa. What
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: was the conversation like surrounding that trip?
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I suggested it. She said, hell no. So that was
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: the conversation. So then I made up this sneaky plan
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: that I would, if she took care of wedding plans,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I would take care of honeymoon plans. And so honeymoon
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: plans became a five-week trip in Southern Africa so that
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I could introduce her to Africa. And so we went
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and we did five weeks in Africa. And when she
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: came back, I didn't broach the subject for a little while.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: And then we're driving down the road one day and
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: she said, yeah, okay, we can do that. I was like,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: do what? She said, go through Africa. So yeah, it's
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: more a matter of getting her. Her insecurity about Africa
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: was just as she'd never been there. And you hear
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff on the news and it sounds
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: like a really scary place. And then you go and
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: visit it and you're like, wow, they're amazing people here.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: It's actually really cool. There's a lot of stuff to see.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It's not, you know, you're not going to die every
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: 30 seconds. And so, yeah, getting her into that comfort
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: zone was great. And that's what sort of kicked it
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: off to be able to do the whole trip. And
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: then it was five years of planning after that before
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: we got to actually go and do it. But, yeah.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Nice, nice.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: It's good to have a team of people, yeah.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was a lot different.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: And actually, weirdly enough, she now teaches a class at
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Overland Expo about how to get your partner to go
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Ooh, yeah, we need to get her on the podcast too.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: I'm curious, like through the grapevine, what are a couple
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: of things that you've overheard that she said?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: How to get people to go?
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how to get your partner to go.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Don't discount their fears because fears are oftentimes irrational. And
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: if you just say, oh, that's not going to happen,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: that doesn't help at all.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: So what you do is you you kind of address
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: them and say, well, OK, I mean, that's that's a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: legitimate fear. And this is how we might deal with that.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: A like, let's go and visit that country for a
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: short trip and, you know, see if we can get
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: comfortable with it or something like that if it's that extreme.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: So.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Or if, you know, I can't travel without a shower. Well,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: let's go and travel and let's have a shower.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: And let's see how that all works. And yes, you
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: can have a shower while you're traveling and all, you know,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: all of that sort of thing. So it's more finding
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: out what the fears are and the resistances are and
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: then actually addressing them instead of saying that's stupid. You can't. Yeah, that's.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Don't worry about that because that's.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Funny how that works, huh?
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Communication and, you know, sort of being, I don't know,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: sort of nice about, you know, people's irrational fears. So
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I think that's what I've heard through the grapevine.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Cool. Thank you. Yeah. We'll have to get her on
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: and do a deep dive, but that's great. For sure.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. So you shifted from that big
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: article in the first issue and eventually turned into gear
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: editor at Overland Journal. What were some of the challenges
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: and some of the big wins during that time period
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: for you?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So the challenges were trying to figure out how to
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: make it. So Jonathan and I both decided, let's make
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: this really science-y. Let's geek out on this stuff, right?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Let's make it as science-y as we possibly can. And
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: so then the challenge becomes, well, how do you do
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: that with sleeping bags, right? How do we make sleeping
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: bags sciency? And so then I had to come up
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: with ideas on how we would do that and what's
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: important about sleeping bags while keeping warmth in. So let's
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: see if we can get an infrared camera and shoot
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: the sleeping bags and see where all the heat's leaking
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: out and see which ones are better. So it was
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: a lot of trying to figure out how to actually
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: review something in a way that I think was meaningful
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: from a data perspective to people, which they may not
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: have even wanted, but they were going to get it anyway.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: And then some of the wins were just the fun
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: things that we did. Like we decided to, on the
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: fridge review, see how many, do fridge volume by number
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: of beer cans, right? So how many beers can you
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: put in your fridge? That's super important. And that's how
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: we measured how big the fridge was. And then the
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: One of my favorites was actually the tie-down review because
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I decided, okay, the best way to do this is
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: crash testing, but I'm not going to crash test my vehicle.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: So I recently got a welder. So I'm like, I'm
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: going to weld up a frame and we're going to
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: put two Pelican cases on it and we're going to
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: use each set of straps that we were reviewing to
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: hold these Pelican cases down. And then we're going to
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: toss it out of the back of a pickup truck
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: while driving down the road at 30 miles an hour.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: And we're going to put an iPhone in there because
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: iPhones were actually recently out and they recently had the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: G-force meter that you could put on the iPhone. And
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: so we'd stick the iPhone in the Pelican case as
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: well and then toss it out of the back of
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: the pickup truck and see what happened. And that was interesting.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: That was, well, it was a lot of fun to
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: toss things out of the back of a pickup truck
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: while you're driving down the road. But it was really cool. Yeah,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: it was a surprising winner. I mean, I'd still talk
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: to the people at RoloCam today because they were like that.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: That worked really well because it did it. It beat
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: all of the ratchet straps and all sorts of things.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: So it was getting surprising results, I think, was actually
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of the fun about it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: I like that. The getting sick on the toilet from
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: the water review, not so much.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: No.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: So we decided we were going to... Yeah, we were
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: actually going to test the filters because no other magazine
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: review that we knew of had actually independently tested all
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: of these filters for getting rid of bugs. So I
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: happened to work at a lab at the time that
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: did biotesting, which was super convenient. So I went to
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: the lab, the guy who was my boss and said,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: can we do this? Can we inoculate? water with E. coli?
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: then run it through all these filters and then test
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: it afterwards to see if it came out. And he's like, yeah, sure,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: that'd be great. I'm like, so what do you want
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: for that? He's like, well, just give me a couple
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: of issues of the magazine or something. That's fine. Anyway,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: so I had the whole staff of the lab on
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: call and we went there, we inoculated all of this
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: stuff with all this water, clean lab water with E. coli,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: stuck it into the tank of my truck and then
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: pumped it through various filters and then put it into
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: little jars and then went and tested it. And I'm disconnecting,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I can't remember, there were two filters and I said,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: forgot to depressurize the system between at these little quick connects.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: And I was pulling one line out to swap filters.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I pulled it out and it just shot water right
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: into my mouth. Well, all over my face. And yeah,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I spent miserable, probably eight hours on the toilet because
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I was pure E. coli just going straight into you.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: And yeah, that was, it's a painful thing. You don't
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: want that.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that I'm laughing this hard. It's not funny.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's funny now at the time. Yeah, not
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: so much.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Gosh. Oh, my gosh.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Of course, all my friends and all the people at
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: the lab were like, oh, that's great. So I was
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: laughing stock for at least several months after that.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: That is the seriousness with which Overland Journal reviews have happened.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, indeed.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. What other shenanigans and fun moments
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: do you remember?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Other shenanigans and fun. Those were two top tier ones.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: I've got to even remember what other reviews I did
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: because I did quite a few of them. We did
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: the sleeping bag one was fun. It was a bit weird,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: like wrapping people up in a sleeping bag and then
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: shooting them with a thermal camera. My photographer friend was
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: not too happy because we did it in the summer
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: to be wrapped up in like down sleeping bags in
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: the front lawn somewhere while people were walking by, having
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: pictures taken of him while he's, you know, sweating like
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: a pig inside a down.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: A pig in a blanket?
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: And picking a blanket, yeah. I ought to say the
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: rooftop tent one was weird because I came home one
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: day and there were like three rooftop tents in boxes
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: on our front porch. And they're not small. So like
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: the entire door was covered with, yeah, all of these
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: boxes of rooftop tents. So we had to sort of
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: like jockey them out of the way to get back
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: into the house. Yeah, all sorts of weird things. The
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: fridge one was a lot of fun, I thought. But
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: more from a, you know, sort of let's put a
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: lot of beer bottles in a fridge and see what
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: we can do with it. We did the power draw stuff,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: but yeah. I don't know. To be fair, there was
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: a lot of drinking after we finished the review because
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: we had to go and buy a whole lot of beer. Right.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: You need testing stuff. What else is going to happen
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: with it? Right, exactly. You can't just put water in there.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, who does that?
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Well, that's fun. Good times. Good times. So after that,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Where did you go from there after Overland Journal? Or
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: were you kind of still writing a little bit and
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: doing other things? I know you're at 7P and doing
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Overland Training and a lot of other things.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when Jonathan left and Chris Collard came on
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: as editor, I still wrote a few things but mostly
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: stories so i did a couple of stories on like
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: the hole in the rock trail and things like that
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and then i also gave just gave him some ideas
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: on how to review certain things because he was doing
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: some reviews as well but mostly what i was doing
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: at that point was working with rosanna jonathan at overland
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: expo running the drone the whole training thing at Overland
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Expo and that's where I'd first run into people like
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Andy Dacey and Jim West from ex-Hamill Trophy members and
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: that's where we started that was the germination of the
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: team that became 7P when we were sort of in
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: the latter ends of Roseanne and Jonathan owning Overland Expo
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: And we put 7P together. And, you know, they say,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: don't go into business with your friends. And you probably shouldn't.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Taylor and myself were sort of running the show. And unfortunately,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: it was a side gig for like six people, which
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: made it very challenging to do. And we all realized
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: that at the end. So even though we had a
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: good brand, we had a good, incredible number of really,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: really good trainers there. Yeah, it was just sort of
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: it wasn't a sustainable business by itself just because everyone
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: it was a side gig for everybody and nobody was
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: in the weeds all the time.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: So, yes.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: So that sort of fell by the wayside. And I
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: decided after that went down that I should do something different.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: else but training there's several you know Jim West still
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: does training other people still do training I was sort
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: of done with training at that point from a emotional
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: standpoint so I decided well I'll take my skills and
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I'll go and do something else with it so I
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: decided to go and make a film a documentary in
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Belize 2023 and I was dumb I've often been dumb
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: but I was particularly dumb I think is a I
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: thought to get into the film industry, you had to
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: prove yourself by making a film. So I self-funded making
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: a film. So we went down there. We did this
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: really awesome track that we opened up for conservation. It's
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: an old Mayan route between two temples. And we were
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: working with the Forestry Commission of Belize to open this
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: road up. And they were very excited because their rangers
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: could then use it for anti-poaching for the Scarlet McCaw.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And there's an archaeologist who was on board who wanted
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: to get a map of the rail line that went
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: up that same route. So we had all these kind
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: of cool conservation ideas about it. And yeah, went and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: made the film and still have the film, still trying
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: to sell it. But that kind of pushed me into
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: a whole different world of things. And that was that
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I have done 40 years of overlanding all over the world.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: And all of these awesome remote places that we go
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: to being impacted because we're telling people they should go there.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: You end up with all these people going to these
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: wild places. From my perspective, and this is super selfish
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: because I have been to places that were very unimpacted,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: which I think is magical. I was thinking, well, people
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: need to have that experience as well. I went down
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: this rabbit hole of trying to promote conservation of those
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: places like all the wild places that we go to
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the most remote places keep them wild keep it so
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: that when you go there it is the experience of
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: wow this is a truly wild place and over the
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: years I'm kind of stuck in the habit of going
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: back to the same place often So over the years,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I just see things, you know, I see more impact
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and more impact and more impact. So I want to,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: a sort of future project, my dream project is to
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: put together some documentaries about remote places, but with an
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: eye to the conservation of those places. Like either the
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: film helps some funding or it's, you know, it actually
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: does some science work there for conservation or something like that.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: So that's sort of my, that's sort of my dream
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: project at the moment. And I've got 25 expeditions floating
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: around in my head. Wow.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. That's amazing. I know you've talked about
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: this a little bit before about different apps that you
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: can use in order to give back when you're overlanding
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: in terms of like submitting information and data. How do
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: you go from overlanding to expedition? with conservation involved? Like,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: how do you take it to that next level?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: So my definition, and this is just me, I did
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: do the Wikipedia entry for the definition of overlanding back
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: in 2006. So that was the first one. Anyway, yeah,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: the overlanding to me is just enjoying the travel, right?
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: It's traveling to remote places. It's traveling through countries. It's
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: doing that sort of thing. But the goal of the
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: whole thing is the actual travel itself. And there's nothing
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: wrong with that at all. I think where it turns
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: into being an expedition is when it has some other focus,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: like there's some science to it, or there's some specific
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: conservation to it, or you've got a mission to deliver
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: something to people or something like that. So that's, that's
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: for me, the difference between a overland trip and an expedition.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Expeditions tend to be a lot shorter and a little
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: more intense because you've got some sort of, you know,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: overriding principle that you've got to go and complete.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: So.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: From a selfish perspective, that's just my, that's how I
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: define them. And so, yeah, my, all of the films
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: that I want to make are more sort of expeditions,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: sort of like two week expedition type of thing to
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: go to a place with a specific goal of doing
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: some science, doing some conservation, helping local communities, that sort
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 18:43
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• 18:45
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• 18:50
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• 18:54
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• 19:06
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• 19:30
  Speaker 2: MOHAB.
• 19:31
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• 19:33
  Speaker 1: You figure out more ideas or you come up with
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: more ideas by revisiting MOHAB. the same areas or re-researching
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: other areas because you get to know the place more
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: deeply and you kind of understand a little bit more
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: maybe the details of it.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Impetus to go and do the one in Belize, which
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: was the first film, was that they were building a
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: massive big highway down to Caracol, which is one of
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the major Mayan ruin sites in southern Belize. And before
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: it had always been this dirt road. So, you know,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: tourist buses, the big tourist buses wouldn't go down and
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: the little tourist buses would often get stuck. And so
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: it was just, it's this beautiful, massive city. And Belize
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: realized that a small percentage of their total tourist population
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: who visits were actually going to the site so they
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: decided to build this big two-lane highway down there and
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: so when we saw that happening we're like well that's
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: going to impact down by caracol it's there's going to
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: be more people there's going to be more impact they're
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: bulldozing through the jungle and so yeah it was basically
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: to go back and actually do this expedition before all
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: of that happened before the road finally got built And again,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: super selfish because it's good for Belize. It's awesome for
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: the people of Belize, right? It's going to bring a
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: lot of people, you know, a lot more income and
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. But again, wild places are important too.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: And being in remote wild places has got its own
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: amazing magic about it. And I think that's one of
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: the great things about overlanding is you can go to these,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: we're all self-sufficient, right? We can take our rigs with
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: all of our stuff and we can just drive off
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: into the sunset and just go into super remote places
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: and experience it. And I think that's something that we know,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: but I'm not sure we always appreciate as much as
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: we should. Yeah.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: And it becomes normal or a little more normal, I guess.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Like the more you do it, the more you're like,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: what is remoteness?
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: It's a subjective concept because it depends on your experience
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: and where you are and Yeah, or the way it
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: makes you feel. It can feel very remote, but you
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: could be very close to a city. Yeah. So yeah,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: it's an interesting thing to think about, isn't it? Like
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: what is.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Remoteness to you? What is remoteness, right? And how important
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: is it, right? And that's one of the stumbling blocks
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: you find at Overland Expo and like a lot of
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: people who go to training is that they're nervous because
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: they feel like to go very remote, you have to
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: be very capable. You have to be well-trained. I don't
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: disagree with that, but I just learned by doing it,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I suppose, to a certain extent. But yeah, there is
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: a little edge to the to the remoteness, which I
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: think is part of the magic of the world we
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: live in. I mean, it's such a... There's still a
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: lot of remote out there that you can go and experience. Yes.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean there aren't people there. I think
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: that's the other thing.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Remote isn't removed from everything. Remote is just removed from
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: your comfort zone, if you think of it like that, right?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Like you can be in the middle of the Sahara with...
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Nobody's within 500 miles of you. That's remote. Or you
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: can be in, you know, the middle of downtown Barcelona
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: and not speak a word of Spanish and feel like
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: that's remote. So there are different ways you can experience
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: remote as well. But mine is mostly sort of environmental remoteness.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: For sure. For sure.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: And also I feel that there's a filter. So Scott
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Brady and I talked about that a long, long time
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: ago going to like parts of Utah. There's like this
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: distance filter, like the further away you get from like
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: a main road or a McDonald's, you know, the less
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: impact there'll be because fewer people are comfortable going that far.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: And so like places like, well, I'm very reticent to
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: mention my favorite places, but like you know, parts of
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Kenyan lands, the signs aren't shot, right? Oftentimes you'll go
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: to national parks and there'll be bullet holes and signs
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: and things like that. But like you go to parts
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: of Kenyan lands and the roads are nice. There's no
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: bullet holes in the signs. There are very few people there.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: And that's its own cool remoteness.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Also time, I think, is another interesting aspect because it's
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: like the road, the distance, sorry, could be short. Right.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: But the length of time it takes you to get
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: somewhere could be long. And so that like definitely adds
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: to the feeling of remoteness because it's taking you forever
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to get there. Right. It's tough or whatever.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: But if you have to put a lot of effort
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: into it to go for these 20 miles, by the
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: time you get to the end of it, to your campsite,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: you feel, holy crap, we're in the middle of nowhere.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: And there might just be a town right over there.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or safety-wise, how do you get, like,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: any heli down or something? Yeah, all those things.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I actually had that in the Paten in Guatemala. There's
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: this long route that takes you about two days to
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: get into this one ruin site, and you get there,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: and you feel like you're in the middle of the
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: deepest jungle in the world. Like, there's Indiana Jones stuff, right?
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: There's temples, and there's vines growing, trees growing all over them,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: and there are, like, two rangers who've been there for
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: six months and are really bored and, you know... They
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: lost like measure of sanity. And you get up on
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: top of one of these temples and you look across
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: the border into Mexico and there's a town there and
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: you can hear the music. And you're like, wow, that's
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: like two miles. That's like two miles away. And I
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: just spent like two days of driving through the jungle
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: to get to this place. And yeah, yeah, just over there. Also,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: remote can be an illusion.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I like what you're saying about preparing yourself for
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: those experiences. And I think maybe if you haven't gone yet,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you think of going into this journey like there's not
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: going to be anybody around or maybe there's not going
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to be any fuel or food or whatever. But actually,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the reality is there's so much population density, so many
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: places in the world now that it's like that. But
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: the preparing yourself for all sorts of things from a
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: four-wheel drive perspective or a driving perspective is obviously very important. Yes.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: What are some of the common misconceptions that have filtered
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: your way as a trainer that you still feel like
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: you're kind of trying to explain?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Just what you said, like how remote, like... preparation is key,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: but from that filters out like all of the stuff.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: So a lot of people think, well, you've got to
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: take everything, right? I'm going out in the middle of nowhere.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I need two high lift jacks because what if the
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: car falls on one side and I can't get to
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: my high lift jack? I need the other high lift jack.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: You know, I need all of this gear. And you
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: don't actually need that much gear. I mean, people live
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: in the Sahara with, you know, less than a bedroll
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: and a bottle of water sort of thing. And you
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: can survive almost anywhere. And people are great everywhere. But
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: you don't need all of this technology with you. So, yeah,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: that's one of the things that is sort of a
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: constant fight, I think, especially in I think in the US,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: because we're very gear oriented, right? So people build up
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: their truck and they throw all their stuff in their
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: truck and they need like, everything has to have two purposes, right?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: So this thing has to do something else. And, you know,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: my coffee maker also has to, you know, make donuts
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: or whatever it is.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, sweet.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: But you don't need all of that, right? All you
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: generally need is like a comfortable bed and, you know,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: something to make coffee in.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And a fridge that can hold- And a fridge. Oh,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: that beer. Yeah.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I keep telling people like the first,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: the number one modification you need to make to any
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: vehicle to make it an overlap vehicle is put a
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: fridge in it. That's it. You don't need tires and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: a fridge and then go and explore the world and
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: then discover how you want to travel and then maybe
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: make some modifications based on that.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: But.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: The reason I'm big on a fridge is because I'm
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: a diabetic, so I need to have my insulin cold
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: and my beer cold and have enough fresh food because
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: camping should never be MREs and freeze-dried meals because you
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: can only do that so long. So, yeah, actually having
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: real food with you, I think, is very important. Yeah,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: we get into these weird arguments in some of my
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: classes about the definitions of things, so the definition of overlanding,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: the definition of expedition stuff, right? And then people are like, well,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: it's just car camping. And I'm like, yeah. So to me,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: car camping is like you throw your stuff in a car,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: you have some freeze-dried meals, everything's pre-prepared, you drive out there,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: you eat for a few days and then you drive back, right?
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: You're not actually living. You're not taking, you know, you're
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: not actually doing personal hygiene. You're not actually eating good
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: food necessarily, right? That's sort of the difference between car
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: camping and overlanding to me. But again, I'm a bit pedantic.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: It's fun to talk about. It's fun to talk about.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: It's a good campfire. Absolutely. Story time, Potter. I love it.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: That actually segues nicely into what are some modifications that
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: should be avoided for long-term travel? I asked Jonathan Anson
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: this in his episode as well, so I'm curious to
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: see where there's some overlap or not.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, interesting. Don't do too much to your car. You
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: don't need... suspension. You don't need like engine modifications. You
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: probably don't need a winch. I think the most dangerous
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: ones are like engine upgrades and like suspension upgrades. And
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything bad about people who make suspension
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: upgrades and stuff like that, but a lot of those
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: things aren't necessarily... tested for you know hundreds of thousands
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: of miles and i had that experience in africa where
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: i'd put like this fancy suspension on the defender and
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: it failed in two countries in and then we had
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: to deal with that as an ongoing thing all the
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: way through africa and i think vehicle manufacturers do a
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: good job with reliability and if you want reliability you
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: should just kind of keep it keep it the way
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: it is maybe put some better tires on it but
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: nothing nothing crazy That being said, I do think the
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Australians do a very good job of... suspension systems because
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: they have to engineering test them. They actually have to
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: test them just like vehicle manufacturers have to test them.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: But Joe down the street, who's just welding some stuff
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: together and throwing it on a truck, doesn't have to
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: do that and it might look cool doesn't mean it'll last.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: So some of it's interesting you say that because some
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: of the like suspension components that are really great for
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: like say the southern u.s you know like utah arizona
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: california it doesn't translate up here because it's snowing and
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: there's lots of salt on the road and all those
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: factors damage the components which you wouldn't.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Actually expect yeah they may not be coated the same
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: way like they coat them at a you know at
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: a like ford coats them at the factory and stuff
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: like that you know make them weatherproof and a lot
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: of the stuff is sort of more geared to you
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: know off-road racing which is great but the cool thing
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: about off-road racing is usually you've got a chase truck
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: with a whole bunch of parts in it so when
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: you break something you can fix it and on your
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: typical overland trip if you're in the middle of kazakhstan
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: right you've Do you have a chase truck with a
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of stuff on it?
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: We didn't.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Probably not.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious from all of your training experience
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: and as a trainer, what have been like the biggest
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: takeaways for you, like teaching and training other people in
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: this way?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I think people tend to underestimate what they
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: can do. Okay. I can go down a whole slew
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: of things and some of them are going to be
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a lot more controversial than others, but, uh, People tend
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: to underestimate their own abilities, right? Because they feel like
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: they're afraid of going into remote places or they've got
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: a fear of water crossings or something like that. So
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: helping people to actually go out and do it and
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: try it in a controlled environment, just it's all about confidence, right?
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: So once their confidence is up, then they're able to
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: tackle those things. So I guess it's a lack of
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: confidence is the biggest thing.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Is that for driving or using the vehicle in a
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: specific way or both?
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Both. And recovery and stuff like that. Recovery, yeah. Recovery
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: needs a bit of training. But so does driving. You're
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: not born with the knowledge of how to drive. And unfortunately,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: we develop some really, really, really bad habits driving on
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: the roads. And I usually try and beat those out
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: of people.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: What are they typically?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: You know, you have your seat way back, you're just driving,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: you're holding just the bottom of the steering wheel, you've
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: got your latte over here, you're reading your text messages,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: paying attention like sitting up, you know, 10 and 2
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: on the steering wheel, actually paying attention to where you're
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: driving on the road to make it smoother for everything,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: tips like that. Those are just habits that people have
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: to kind of get into. I've also learned that women
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: are a lot better at driving than men are. Because
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: men usually come with some ego involved and women are
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: a lot better at like putting that bite aside and
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: just saying, okay, I'm going to listen to what you're
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: saying and I'm actually going to do it. Whereas men
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: are much more apt to be like, oh, I've been
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: doing this for years. I know how to do that.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: So anyway, that's been one of the big takeaways is
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: trying to convince people that they are doing something that
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: they probably shouldn't be doing when they have a preconceived
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: notion that that's how they do it, right?
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: And then other battles with people like when to switch
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: into four-wheel drive. You know, when do you do that?
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: I'll ask that question in a class and people are like, well,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: when you get stuck or, you know, stuff like that.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I'm always trying to instill in them the thought process
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: that you have to be predictive. You're driving in a
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: predictive way. You have to look ahead. So you're always
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: going to be in four-wheel drive when you're on dirt.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: That's it. That's the flat rule. Once you do that,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: things will become easier because when you get to a
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: little bit of mud or something, you're not even going
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: to worry about it because you're already in four-wheel drive.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think I can go down the rabbit
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: hole of cars and modifications, but I think car companies
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: are doing us a massive disservice by like making a
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: bunch of reactive things in cars you know like traction
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: control and you know abs and dsc dynamic stability control
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: all these things that reacts to a situation that you
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: probably shouldn't have got into in the first place because
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: you should have been looking ahead and it just kind
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: of gives us this weird comfort zone that we think
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: The technology is going to take care of us. And
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: it can only do that up to a certain point.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: And then beyond that point, it's all going to be
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: a disaster. So, yeah. Anyway, that's my rabbit hole of
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: vehicle technology. Which is why I only drive really old
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: cars that have none of that stuff. What's really old
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: to you? 1985.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: 40.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: So, okay, that's not old.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but anyway. It's pretty good.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: It's getting there.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: It's pretty old, yeah.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: And a special thanks to Honcook Dynapro Tire for supporting
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: this week's Overland Journal podcast. Be sure to visit expeditionportal.com
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: to see our features on the recent Honcook experience at
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: the fourth annual Bronco Stampede in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. We
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: took a look at the full line of Dynapro tires
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: and some great Ford Broncos cars. from all over the
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: country as they gathered at this community event of enthusiasts
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: and top brands. Thanks again, Han Cook.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Nice. What are your top, let's say, three sort of
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: like recovery tips?
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Stop and have a cup of tea. So I get
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: railed on this online all the time because people are
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: like having a cup of tea. The principle is when
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: you get stuck, don't just jump out and start throwing
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: things at the problem. Just stop. Think. have a glass
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: of water, have a cup of tea. If you move
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: on to beer or wine, then probably camp there and
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: then recover tomorrow. So that's that. But yeah, stop and
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: think about things for 10 minutes and you'll come up
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: with 55 different ways that it's going to be a
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: lot easier than had you just thrown in there and
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: like thrown the max tracks around and started winching to
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: the rock and doing all this stuff. So slowing down,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: thinking about it, getting training. I think is very, very,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: very important. Like actually go to a reputable trainer. And
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: by training, I mean not trained by manufacturers. And I
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: don't want to throw people under the bus, but, you know,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: people have an impetus to sell things. Get trained by
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Jim West or Chris Walker or, you know, somebody who
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: or Nina Barlow, who's amazing, right? Somebody who who. It's
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: doing it for the how to train you how to
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: do it, not to how to sell you something. And
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: then finally, I would say third one would be always
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: take rated equipment. Take them. Buy the best recovery gear
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: you possibly can. Because when you get stuck, it's going
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: to be wet. It's going to be cold. It's going
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: to be dark. People are going to be upset. They're tired.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: And the last thing you want to have happen when
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: all of that happens is for your, you know, cheap
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: piece of whatever rope you've got. that it breaks and
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: now everyone's even more pissed off and now you know
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: things go down a rabbit hole really quickly so buy
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: rated gear that's high quality and it won't fail you
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: so and when you need it because something's already gone
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: wrong you got stuck you know you're stuck so you're
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: already step one into a problem so don't make the
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: problem worse for yourself.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: As you go on i think this is such an
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: interesting point because this is going to make me sounds
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: so like not hardcore, but we're very consciously trying not
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: to get in those situations as overlanders, which I think
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: is different. There is a different mindset than like an
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: off-roader or like more intense overlanders than us, I guess.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: We're always like, let's try not to. That's not what
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: we're here for. But I respect the fact that that
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: in some situations, that's what you're there for. And that's
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: experience and that's testing your equipment and testing your capacity
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: to problem solve and all of those things. And I 100%
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: think that's super valuable. But like on a day-to-day basis,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: when we're gone, we're trying actively to like avoid those
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: situations altogether.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: 100%. I would absolutely say that getting stuck on an
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: overland trip is like the last thing you ever want
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: to do. I mean, I've done tons and tons of
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: miles on an overland trip and trips all over the
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: place and we didn't we got stuck once in Africa
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: and that was just because the road had deteriorated to
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: the point that it was very muddy but typically on
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: an overland trip I will turn around like I come
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: to a I wash out and I'm like, not sure
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: about that. If you say, not sure about that, probably
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: a good time to just turn around and go someplace else, right?
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: And absolutely do that. On an expedition, which is a
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: little bit different, you're mission focused, right? And like we've got,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: our whole plan is to get from this point in
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: the jungle to that point in the jungle. So then
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: when we come across downed trees, yeah, we're going to
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: chop them up. We're going to winch them out of
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: the way. We're going to use our recovery gear. We're
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: going to do all that sort of stuff and be
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: a little bit more mission driven about it. Whereas on
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: an overland trip, I mean, there's a road that goes there.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: There's another road that goes there someplace else. You can
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: turn around and go a different way or you can
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: stop for a while, have a cam, think about it.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I would say being a lot more
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: leisurely about it. It's kind of you're living on the road, right?
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: You don't want to, yeah, you're trying to get in.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: It's like when you're driving down the highway, you're not
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: looking to get in an accident. You shouldn't be looking
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: to get stuck. You shouldn't be looking to get stuck.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: And then there's the reference point. Yes. There's the reference
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: point of like going recreationally closer to home. And I
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: think there's a greater, the access oftentimes, maybe not all
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: the time, is that you can find parts or you
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: can get it fixed or you can, you know, do
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: all those things.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I feel that's more like sort of. That's more sort
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: of four wheeling. Four wheeling.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, because I did that for years in the
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Land Rover Club and I got very bored of it
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: because it was go up a trail and then turn
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: around and come back down the trail. And I hate
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: doing that. But yeah, a lot of people, the sort
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: of the impetus behind it was to sort of conquer nature, right?
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: It was to conquer the trail. Like we've got to,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: this thing's really hard. We've got to get up it
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: and we've got to do it by, and then things
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: break and stuff happens. And it's like 10 o'clock at
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: night and you're cold and tired and want to go home.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: At 10 o'clock at night, I'd prefer to be in
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: bed after having had a nice meal and a good
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: drink and having watched a beautiful sunset. So that's, yeah.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Different strokes for different folks.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. Like you can
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: go and do the Rubicon, but know that that's what
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: you're doing, right? Don't call that necessarily overlanding. That's doing
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: the Rubicon trail. And yes, absolutely. It's tough and you
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: go and do it and have fun while you're doing it.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: But it's not the same thing. The training's similar, but yeah.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Right, right. So yeah, all those things.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take you through a series of rapid
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: fire questions next.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: So get ready. Okay. Manual or automatic?
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Manual.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Diesel or gasoline?
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Diesel.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Roof tent or ground tent?
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Top toe.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Ooh, yeah. I like that. Favorite road snack?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Built on.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Nice. Most reliable vehicle you've ever owned?
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Land Rover Defender.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: One country you'd return to tomorrow.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Botswana.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: One vehicle you'd buy with no budget limit.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't get that one item I'd buy.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: One vehicle that you would buy with no budget limit.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Land Rover Defender. Yeah.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: And most overrated... Most overrated off-road trend.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Most overrated off-road trend. Ooh, that's hard because I try
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: to ignore those as much as I possibly can.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Weird wheels. That could be your answer.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Funky wheels. I mean, stocksteel wheels are fine.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Before we wrap, I'm curious what you've been up to.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: I released an app. called the Overland Glovebox Guide, which
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: is basically 40 years of my Overland experience stuck in
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: an app. It's got recovery calculators and checklists and all
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: that sort of stuff in it. I would say it's
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: struggling to be successful. So that's where we are with that.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: But I think these things have sort of a long
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: run on them. I've been doing that. I've been trying
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: to sell my film series. And I started another technology company,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: which I think was possibly a little overreach. But yeah,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I feel if you don't have like five side gigs,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: you're not really doing anything properly.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Side gigs. It's a thing.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Everything for me is a side gigs. Right.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: And you've got your 25 expedition ideas going on.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: So that's going to be the film series type of stuff.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: So we'll see what happens with that.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Exciting.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I can't. Yeah, the first one sort of depleted
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: my bank account. So I can't do the rest of
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: them self-funded. I have to find somebody who's willing to
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: at least think it's an exciting project and front up
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: some dollars.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe somebody who's listening right now will hear.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: You never know. Yeah, absolutely. It's really cool. It's remote
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: expeditions all over the world. Each one has its own
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: conservation mission. So every episode will be its own project.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: standalone thing. It's not like you're trying to find the
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: buried somebody under a pyramid and every episode you fail
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: and you eventually maybe at the end of the series
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: do something. No, this is every single episode has one
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: mission and the mission will, there's probably a 95% chance
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: you'll complete the mission no matter what.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to hearing more. Yeah, that sounds awesome.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: You did a talk, I think we spoke about this
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: a while back when I was asking you about public
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: speaking and you did a talk where you were talking
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: about how overlanding or expeditioning in vehicles, four-wheel drive vehicles,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: and conservation can exist together. And I was wondering if
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: you could share a little bit about that talk and
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: how it was received. Was this at the Royal Geographical Society?
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is when I first finished the film.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: And this was at the Royal Geographical Society's Explore event,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: which happens right at the beginning of November. And I'm
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: speaking at it. this coming November. So it's something I
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: go to every year. But this was a couple of
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: years ago when I just finished the film and I
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: had a preview for the film, like a trailer, and
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: they agreed to let me show the trailer. They had
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: these rapid fire expedition talks and it was like a
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: 10 minute talk and that was it. So I showed
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: the trailer and I got up and I was talking
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: about it. And usually when I show the trailer and
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: I get up, people, you know, there'll be some applause
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: or whatever. And it was dead silence. Absolute dead silent.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Everyone's just sort of staring at me like I'm a
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: green goblin. And one of the people from the RGS
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: sort of looked a bit shocked, right? And she kind
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: of whispered to me, you know, a lot of these
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: people are here to protest like oil and gas and
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. And they actually chained themselves to the
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: parliament building and they did that and now they're here.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: And so... I had to sort of divert off this
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: thing and try and say, okay, so yeah, we're taking
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: vehicles into remote areas, but we can still help conservation
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: as well. And I'm not sure it was super well,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, received at the time, but people did come
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: up to me afterwards and say, well, you know, that
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: was actually a pretty good argument. And the argument was,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: we're going into remote areas. We've got to take equipment
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: in there for science. It's right now, electric vehicles are awesome,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: but we don't They don't have the range. They don't
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: have the ability to do what we need them to do.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: So we're kind of reliant on this technology that we're using.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: And we can still, we have, you know, very efficient
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: vehicles and we can actually, you know, be very careful
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: and be very cognizant. And it's very important to stay
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: on the trail. Don't go off the trail, you know,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: don't make new roads, all of that sort of thing.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: And I gave probably, I don't know, three or four
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: minutes of actually telling people how you could be a
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: responsible person driving off-road in remote areas. And by the
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: end of it, I think I'd convinced at least three
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: of them that it was okay. Out of an audience
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: of 50, but you know. Right.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: So I, that's why I asked you about that because
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: I think that face-to-face conversation that you had is like
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: so important and so great to be coming together like
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: that on both sides and being able to have those conversations. Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: I think they are very, very important. And then people
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: will yell at you for driving a diesel vehicle.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: But my my my vehicles all pass emissions. They're all legal.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: They're all actually better than passing emissions in Colorado. So
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: the lowest, you know, they pass emissions at a much
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: lower level than they are required to. And, you know,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: I don't I try and be very cognizant of the
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: places I'm going and what resources I'm using. So how
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: much water I'm using from the local areas, what resources
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: I'm using for the people from local areas, like using
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: guides from local areas and actually giving money back to
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: local areas and things like that. Staying on the roads,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: respecting their signs. Like if there's a sign that says
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: don't enter, then don't enter. Or go and find somebody
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and ask permission and see if you can. And, you know,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: just be very cognizant of that sort of thing. Don't
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: leave your trash around. You know, there are all sorts
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: of things that we probably all know about fairly easily.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: intuitively as overlanding people but i've seen overlanders who've left
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: garbage in places like i've been in australia and you
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: know they back in the day they used to be
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: taught to just bury their garbage so you'd come into
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: campsites in the middle of the simpson desert and there'd
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: be a trash bag sort of coming out of the
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: ground and you dig it up and it's like somebody
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: just buried this trash full of you know cans and
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: plastic and stuff like that so it's it is education
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: And it is showing that we can be, you know,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: good stewards of the land and also drive a vehicle because,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: you know, we can.
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, we can. I got into a conversation with an
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: overlander who we were camped with in Turkey and I
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: was cleaning up garbage and he was like, why are
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: you doing that? It's just going to be bad tomorrow. Like,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: why are you doing that for them? And I'm like, well,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: it's not actually for them. It's for all of us. Yeah.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Because you don't want to see that, right?
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: You go out someplace and you just see garbage. That's crap. Yeah.
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: I went to a, there was a place in, yeah,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: it's very important. There's a place in Morocco, Dakla Beach,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: and a lot of overlanders stop over there and there's
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: toilet paper and poo all over the place. Like there's
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: this whole plateau that's just covered with it. And you're like, what,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: what is going on?
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: And it's a desert, so it doesn't go away. It
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: just sits there.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah, and that's when things get shut down and
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: you get moved along to camp somewhere else.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: And here in the U.S., I've actually started to see
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: people leave wet wipes behind. So they go to the
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: toilet and they use wet wipes instead of toilet paper.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: And that's plastic. And it's never going to go away.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard enough to get toilet paper to
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: go away, but to get a wet wipe to go
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: away is never going to happen. So that's even worse.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: I will say I've seen wet wipes everywhere. pretty much
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: all through parts of Europe, the Balkans, Turkey, Georgia, into
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Central Asia. And usually one of the number one things
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: that I've picked up, well, whisks.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: On.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Our wet wipes. Yeah.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Sucks.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Good to know. Good to know. Yeah.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Check it out.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: So thank you for speaking with me about this. This
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: is great. Like overland stewardship and conservation is so important
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: if we want to continue to travel in the way
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: that we do and enjoy beautiful places. So thank you
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: for that.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Keep them open.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Especially in the U.S. because public lands are amazing, right? Yes.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Yes. My last question for you. You've been doing this
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: a long time. Much has changed, but some things have
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: stayed the same. What surprises or fascinates you about Overland
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Travel in 2026?
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It's still an adventure. Like even after 40 or 50
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: years of doing this, it's like, even if I go
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: back to the same places because they changed, there's something different.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: There's something to, there's something new to discover everywhere. I
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: think it's just the world is just such an amazing place.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: And it's such a great way to travel through it
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: because you're on the ground. Yeah. It's yeah. I love it.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Me too. Well, thank you. Thanks, Graham.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. Thank you, Ashley.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Thanks for celebrating with us. Absolutely. It's always incredible to
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: speak with the folks who came before and laid the
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: foundation and told stories.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: You're making me sound really old now.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: No, no.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: But yeah, all that I find, yeah, it's very important.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: So thanks for taking the time. And where can the
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Overland Journal podcast listeners find you?
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm at overlandpassage.com. I'm also on Instagram at Overland Passage.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: My YouTube channel is Overland Passage. And if anybody's interested
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: in the app, it's at overlandgloveboxguide.com. And also on Instagram
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: at that. Awesome.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: As usual, we will include the links. So awesome.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was great speaking with you. And to honor
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the 20-year anniversary of Overland Journal, we're revisiting special heritage content,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: including pieces written by Graham in the 100th episode. Stay
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: in the loop. Sign up for the new Overland Journal newsletter.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: We'll put the link in the show notes. And head
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: to expeditionportal.com for more bonus heritage content. And again, thank you.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Thanks to the Overland Journal podcast listeners, too, for tuning
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: in today's episode. We'll catch you later.