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Women Leaders Under Attack · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Steffone
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you a prediction of iHeartRadio. And today we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: are really lucky because we are once again joined by
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the fabulous and delightful bridget Todd three times in this month.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: I know, I love it. I'm like, okay, coming on,
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: how often can we have you on? Let's do more stuff?
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: I also love it, you know, the Hugh Hefner antics
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: never end. Also, can I just say thank you for
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: if folks haven't listened to our Hugh Hefner conversation, I've
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: got a lot out of it, and thank you for Like,
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: I don't know, I feel like it was a meaty
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: one and people should listen to it.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm grateful that we had the space.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. And of course we stretched it out
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: very long.
• 1:00
  Speaker 5: We still left out so many things at the end
• 1:03
  Speaker 5: that we do want to come back with, maybe like
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: a conversation about where Playboy and magazines as that are today,
• 1:10
  Speaker 5: and that will be a later, later conversation.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: I swear to Goddess later, because there's.
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: So much and it is so deep, and like having
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: going through all of that depth conversation that who was
• 1:20
  Speaker 5: kind of at one point, we're like, this is abruptly ending,
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: and Annie had to fix us because he's like, yo,
• 1:25
  Speaker 5: we can't do it like that because that's too much.
• 1:29
  Speaker 5: But it was so much that there was no like
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: bits of it that was just like, Okay, this is
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: an easy, easy going part.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: There's no easy going part.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: No, Yeah, it's so true, and like what a I
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: don't know. I've been listening to a lot of nostalgia
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: podcasts that are like, oh.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Remember when this, remember when that?
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: Like you know, you're wrong about things like that, and
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: it's like, what a weird time for the culture, What
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: a weird thing that we all experienced together like it
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: was normal and it really.
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: Was not right though, because we are aging, like slowly aging,
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: y'all slower than Maze fines great, but like looking back
• 2:08
  Speaker 5: on things, a lot of this conversation is because things
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: are revamping and we're seeing in the younger generation doing
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: their thing similar to what we already know and putting
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: their own like style to it. But watching it is
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: kind of like, huh, that's not as original as you think.
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: It's cute and I like your version, but just know
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: that this was there before. But at the same time,
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: I'm like, I wonder how many times the people before
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: us also felt that way. We're just coming into that
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: same like generational glitch of like, yeah, there it is.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: This is why now I understand that the older generation
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: would just look at us kind of funny and be like,
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: what are you doing? This has been done anyway. I've
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: had those moments lately.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: I had one watching a group of like very young
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: people wearing the oversized jeans that are so long that
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: that you are stepping on them, and it was like
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: a damp day and I was like, ooh, I remember
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: that feeling of like the Jinko jeans that went over
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: the back that the heels of your sneaker and get
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: wet and gross yuck.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: You're gonna want the skinny jeans again one day.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like, oh, y'all are back there again. Okay, cool,
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: let's see how that goes.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I just have to put in here, and I'm not
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: going to provide any more context than this, but Jinko
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: jeans are very important in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: follow up or no, no, no.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: I I think Peaches has something to do with this.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Dog Peaches is very much a inspiration in the campaign. Yeah, well,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: I'll say this as the I run the game, sometimes
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: you got to go with what the players are doing.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And we're all from kind of the same generation.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Is that millennial level of like.
• 3:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah, anyway, we really appreciate you joining us today, virgin
• 3:54
  Speaker 6: What you the topic you have for us is one
• 3:57
  Speaker 6: that I admit is giving me a lot of thingsniety,
• 4:00
  Speaker 6: But I'm very glad that you're here to talk about
• 4:02
  Speaker 6: it because it's so so important and there's a lot
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: to breakdown, So let's go ahead and get into it.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: I feel the same anxiety and angst that you're feeling
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: I'm feeling, and that is that we have an upcoming election.
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: I've been doing this thing where I'm saying I'm not
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: going to even pay attention to the election until we're
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: like one hundred days out. Generally for me around then
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: that I'm like, oh o God, I just want a campaign.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: But I think like I need to confront the fact
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: that we're in an election year, and it's not twenty
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: twenty four.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: It's not just an election year.
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: It's probably the election year, not just here in the
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: United States, but also globally.
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  Speaker 2: I did not know this.
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  Speaker 4: Around the world, more voters in history will vote this year,
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: with at least sixty four countries and the European Union
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: having elections combined. This is about forty nine percent of
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: people worldwide are meant to be holding national elections in
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty four.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: So it's a very big deal.
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  Speaker 4: The stakes are high, or not wrong to be feeling
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: a little anxiety or a little angst or a little
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: uncertainty around it, Annie, But given all that, I think
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: it really makes sense to think about whether or not
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: elections are fair to women who are running for office. Obviously,
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: this is like a global issue, but right here in
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: the United States things are also very bleak.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: And it's important because we can't have like.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: An equitable, functional democracy if women are not able to
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: run for office without facing identity motivated attacks simply for
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: showing up and daring to be women.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, and you've talked about this a lot before, and
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  Speaker 1: I think it's so important because if you're considering running
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: for office as a woman or any intersection of marginalized identity,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: that's just like an extra thing to deal with, and
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: like your family has to deal with, like people who
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: know you has to deal with, and I can't honestly
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: blame people for being like, you know what, I don't
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: want to deal with that, And that's a huge problem.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Is a huge.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: Problem, absolutely, and even for folks who are not running
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: for elected office, it's a problem because more and more
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: we're seeing it just harassment and identity based attacks being
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: part of showing up to public or civic life. And
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  Speaker 4: so if you want to be a poll worker for
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  Speaker 4: your elections in your town, or if you want to
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  Speaker 4: speak up at a town hall meeting in your town,
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  Speaker 4: just these every day, not exciting bits of democracy, these
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: everyday ways that folks should be able to show up
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: and make their voices heard and participate in their civic
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: and public life. Women and people of color and other
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: marginalized people are facing attacks just for doing that. And
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: you know, it makes me sad because I've seen very
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: clear research that suggests that women are shying away from
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: public office and shying away from this kind of civic
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: participation because.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Of these attacks. And on the one hand, I get it, like.
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: Women are smart enough to know if I'm not protected
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: and when I do this, if I have to pay
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: lots of lots and lots of money to protect myself
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: in a way that my male counterparts just don't even
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: have to think about. I don't want to do that.
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: And so as much as I want to have the
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: representative democracy that we all deserve, I understand why more
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: and more marginalized people are checking out and being like, yeah,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: I'm just not going to sign up for this, Like
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: why would you?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I get it?
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think one of the reasons for my anxiety,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: A lot of our anxiety, as you said, you have
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: been on here to talk about it being like disinformation
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  Speaker 1: in these attacks and misinformation, it feels like it's gotten
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: worse for a lot of reasons. Is that in my.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Head or I am sorry to say it is not
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  Speaker 4: in your head. You know, today in twenty twenty four,
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  Speaker 4: women in politics and positions of power are the targets of.
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  Speaker 2: Just overwhelming volumes.
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  Speaker 4: Of gender disinformation and online abuse in forms of character assassinations,
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  Speaker 4: fake stories, and humiliating or sexually charged images. Something that
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: is new is the proliferation of AI enabled disinformation, visual disinformation,
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: so things like cheap fakes, deep stakes, all of that
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  Speaker 4: kind of stuff that I think we really hadn't had
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: to wade through before, Like we are now.
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  Speaker 2: And I also just think, I mean, this is just
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: my opinion.
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  Speaker 4: I think that the cultural landscape around these kinds of
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: attacks have changed.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I think that we're in a place where people.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: Are really willing to believe things that adhere to their
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  Speaker 4: worldviews already. And so if you see a piece of
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  Speaker 4: disinformation or an AI generated deep fake, even if there
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: are all the things that you're like, that's probably not
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  Speaker 4: true if it aligns to your worldview. Anecdotally, I believe
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: that I've seen more and more people being unwilling to
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: challenge things that are clearly not true if it aligns
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: to their worldview. And we're talking about misogyny and sexism,
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: so much of that is wrapped.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Up in how people think about the world.
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  Speaker 4: And so if you already are somebody who was prone
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: to think that women are untrustworthy or women are incapable,
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: or women are not qualified or not good leaders, when
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: you see something that confirms that, even if it's like
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: obviously AI manipulated or something are not true, I do
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: think here in twenty twenty four, people are going to
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: be willing to be like, oh, yeah, that tracks, you know,
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: because it aligns to this like deeply held idea and
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: attitude about women that they already have, right, you know.
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: One of the things I was thinking about the last
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: time we kind of had a similar conversation about this,
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  Speaker 5: we talked a lot about like bots, and we talked
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: a lot about like how Russia really did target specific
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  Speaker 5: women and marginalized people, even pretending to be like marginalized
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: people themselves in order to attack other people or be like, yes,
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: I'm definitely voting for so and so because I am
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: this type of person who thinks that this candidate will
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: do the best for us, even though it's not true
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: at all, which you know, we've seen plants essentially everywhere,
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: but then these bots were this thing. Is there something
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: different this time round that we're seeing, Like as as
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: calculated as that was, obviously it's getting worse.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: What are we seeing now?
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: I would say that I was somebody who really talked
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: a lot about the way that global forces were using
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: and exploiting our online ecosystem to like manufacture political conversation
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: in a way that was inauthentic, and I think that's
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: important to talk about. Like, there was an entire Senate
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: inquiry report that said that Russia specifically was interested in
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: targeting black people, black voters and get them to either
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: vote for Trump or to stay home in our last
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: presidential election.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Right, So, like that's a thing.
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: However, I think in twenty twenty four, the conversation really
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: has to be more involved because it's not just foreign adversaries,
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: it is also people right here in the United States.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: You have the front.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: Runner for the Republican Party engaging in identity based disinformation
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: attacks all the time, right, And so I think the
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: problem has gotten more involved, and I think there are
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: more parties involved.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: And I also think it's.
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: Been more normalized, right, Like I think like the idea
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: that someone would just lie about a candidate and tell
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: a lie that is only works because it is supported
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: by bias or unfair attitudes or lies.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: About somebody's identity.
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: I think that we're in a place where people are
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: not calling that what it is, and so the whole
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: problem thats would have like gotten worse.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, And I think like when you do call it
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: what it is, we've just become so like we don't
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: trust anybody else's data. We don't trust for they're getting
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: their sources. That's what my experience has been When I
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: get in fights with people, they're always like, where's your source?
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: No, don't even get me like this, like where don't
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: I even start?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Like I have had that same experience.
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: It's part and parcel of why I've kind of like
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: given up on a certain kind of online discourse with strangers,
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: because I'm just like, it's not worth my time. If
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: you're somebody who wants to be in the trenches arguing
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: with somebody on a Reddit, more love to you, like
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: good job, good luck, and it's.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Not my ministry. I don't have the energy, I don't
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: have the.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: Time because and I guess that's the thing about people
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: with these entrenched worldviews, but it's very hard to have
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: conversations with them in some cases because it's like, oh well,
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: here's a like reputable source, and it's like, oh, well
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: the source is wrong. Here's why you can't trust whatever source.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: And the problem is is really that like a lot
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: of these institutions and sources really have given people legit
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: reasons to be suss about them and to question them, and.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: So it just makes it that much more complicated.
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: We're like, you know, well, yes, like I don't want
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: to go out here and cape for like the CDC
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: or whatever.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: But like we have to start somewhere.
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: We have to have like a baseline understanding of just
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: the reality that we're all sharing, other wise everything breaks down.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: You are someone who has been working in the world
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: of disinformation and misinformation for a while, and I think
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: it's interesting because when we talk to you, there's always
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: kind of like almost like a game plan of like
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: how things work, are how people do things, and as yes,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: as you've been saying, like some of it relies on
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: what's baked in already, of like the sexism baked in
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: already totally.
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: So that is a great way to put it, Annie,
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: because it really is like a game plan. And I really,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: in the work that I do around missing disinformation, I
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: really encourage folks to like take a step back and
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: see the machinations of how this is working, to sort
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: of see the ways that we are being essentially like
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: hoodwinked and grifters are sort of like getting something out
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: of us by following a very specific kind of game plan.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: And so you can really think about the way that
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: we're seeing misogyny based attacks work today as a sort
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: of three pronged attack.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Prong one is online violence.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: So like threats of abuse, hate speech, harassments, beer campaigns.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: Then you have pronged two disinformation by bad actors. So
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: like the kind of artificial activity that Sam was talking about,
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: like bots, coordinated influence operations, fake news combined with algorithmic
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: preferences toward insidiary content. Right, Like a whole body of
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: research tells us that social media platforms, places like Twitter, Reddit, whatever,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: they really do prioritize content.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: That is inflammatory.
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: And so if you are somebody who wants to tell
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: an inflammatory lie that it's identity based about somebody that
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: is going to get profential treatment on algorithms, it's just
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: a fact. And then the last prong is what you
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: were talking about Annie, just gold fashioned everyday sexism, right,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: Just the general suspicion around women, particularly women of color
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: and black women, suspicion around our motivations, our abilities are
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: like motivations to lead, like why do we want to lead?
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: How do we get to a leadership position?
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: All of this really allows gender based attacks to take
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: root in mainstream political discourse. So I wish that we
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: were talking about something that we only see festering in
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: you know, random dudes blog dot biz. But a lot
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: of this conversation does get amplified to like mainstream platforms.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It does. And that's something I've been thinking about a
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: lot lately too, is the you've talked about before, like
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: how kind of like outrage gets more money, like in
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: it's monetized in our social media and other platforms. And
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I feel when women point that out, the criticisms come
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: again of like, well, see she can't handle it or
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: what have you. But there are numbers to back this up.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Oh totally.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: And something about that is like men are not being
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: asked to handle identity based criticisms when they run for
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: public office or just not. And so I would argue
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: that like a landscape where women are asked to handle
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: something that their counterparts simply do not have to deal
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: with is not a fair landscape.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: And you shouldn't have to put up.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: With identity based lies and smears to run for office.
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: You should be able to handle criticisms about your record,
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: about what you say, about your behavior, about your policy.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: But we're not talking about that. We're talking about you
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: can't lead because you're a woman. I am suspicious of
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: your motivations because you're a woman. That's a different thing
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: that men in public office simply do not have to
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: deal with.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: So let's look at some of the data around this.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: So discrediting and disabusing women candidates in the twenty twenty
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: two midterm election echoed these patterns that really took shape
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: in twenty twenty when racist and sexist and ablest abuse
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: was hurled at candidates like Representative Ilhan Omar and Senator
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Tammy Duckworth, when multiple secretaries of state faced harassment and
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: legit physical threats for ratifying the election results, and white
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: supremacists plotted to kidnap and hold ransom Governor Whitmere side note,
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: that is something that like, I don't think that we
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: ever like the fact that white supremacists were foiled in
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: a plot to kidnap a public elected official. We did
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: not have nearly enough conversation about that. I believe if
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: that had happened in another country, we would be like,
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: we would be looking at it like, wow, look who
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: can't do democracy? Oh my god, what is going on
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: over there? It happened here, and I feel like it
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: barely made made a blip.
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's kind of like any abuse situation or
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: stalking situation unless they're dead. They don't care unless we die,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: They're not going to listen. It's not an actual threat,
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: which is the most absurd thing that they need to
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: see it end in violence in order to give credit
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: to what happened, Like that's unfortunately what's happening.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: And that's sort of my point of this whole conversation, Sam,
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: is that we shouldn't accept that we have to wait
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: until somebody is dead or in the hospital to have
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: these conversations. Right like media platforms amplified violence and abuse
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: against Nancy Pelosi and her hustbody broke into her house
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: and attacked her husband with a hammer and.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: He was hospitalized, right.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: Like, it shouldn't take something like that to be like,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: oh wait, is this a real thing. It's a real thing,
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: and it shouldn't have to get to a point of
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: violence for us to really take it seriously, and that
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: these kinds of.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Attacks are really expanding.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: There is a recent global study shows that women government
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: officials targeted with violence is one of the largest categories
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: of attacks in the US compared to other regions of
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: the world, which includes public and civil servants, local authorities,
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: and nonpartisan political appointments such as judges, so like, yeah,
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: like it's a global problem, but the problem is unique
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: in the United States, and especially given that we might
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: have two women running for vice president in twenty twenty four.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: The way that we talk about gender and leadership and
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: the way that we know the kind of conversations that
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: we normalize and tolerate around women in leadership, we are
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: going to have to sort of get that straight right,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: because it's certainly going to be something that comes up.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: In fact, I would say that we've already seen this
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: when it comes to a tax on Vice President Harris.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, it's so sad because I remember having these
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: thoughts when like Hillary Clinton was almost elected and then
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris. I was thinking that they're going
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: to be assassinated. I thought that, And that's horrific that
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I thought it, But I was like worried for them.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: And there's a reason to because there are. If you're
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: living in a world where you're getting constant threats of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: like death and violence and sexual violence, it's hard not
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: to think like one of these people might actually do something.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in a country where guns are not really
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: that difficult to come by, in a country that normalizes
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: and amplifies these this kind of violent rhetoric against women
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: in public officials like the conditions are perfect for that
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: kind of violence to easily move from online violence to
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: offline violence, just like we saw in January sixth, right
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: like we're I'm not like pulling this out of nowhere.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: We have already seen this.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, and again there are numbers behind behind.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: This, there sure are.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: So shout out to the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. They
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: have a study that found that women of color candidates
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: are targeted by the right at really alarming rates online
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: a couple of key finding so, abusive messages accounted for
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: more than fifteen percent of those directed at every female
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: lawmaker analyzed, compared with around five to ten percent of
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: male candidates. Women of color are particularly likely to be targeted.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: And this piece I think is really important. So male
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: politicians who are ethnic minorities are not more vulnerable than
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: their white counterparts. For instance, Corey Booker and Tim Scott,
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: who are both black men, got similar levels of abuse
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: to white male candidates. However, the attacks against them were
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: more likely to be around race. ISD found so abuse
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: directed toward women it's more likely to be about their
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: gender than abuse targeting men. Abuse targeting men was more
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: generalized and focused on their political stances, while the messages
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: directed that women are more likely to focus on things
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: like their appearance or like general competence. Female Democrats received
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: ten times more abusive comments than their male counterparts on Facebook,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: and Republican women received twice as many abusive comments as
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: Republican men. So it's one of those situations where women
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: of color and black women.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Are really shouldering the majority of this burden.
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: But it's it's it's not the same along gender and
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: race lines, right, Like it is very different if you
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: are criticizing somebody because of their their political stances or
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: their policy versus if you're criticizing somebody because of the
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: way they look or because of like a like a
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: general sussbission of who they are based on their identity, Like,
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: those things are very different. And as this report from
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: the Institute for Strategic Dialogue points out, everybody is not
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: shouldering that burden equally.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it's it's very frustrating for a lot of reasons.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: But as going back to like the whole like showing
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: your sources thing, it's really hard to combat, right, it's
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: really hard to to fight against this.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: It really is like, this is work that I have
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: done professionally during various times of my career, and you know,
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: being in the space, we talk a lot about things
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: like debunking, which I do think has its place. However,
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: it's a pretty frustrating endeavor because it's like you're playing
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: whack a mole, right Like I used to be the
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: person who would have meetings with Facebook or Twitter or
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: Reddit and be like, oh, well, here's a bunch of
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: examples of content that violates your terms of service and
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: seems to be violent threats or attacks on public officials
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: or women running for office, and they'd be.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Like, okay, we'll take those down.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: And it's like you can't do that forever, right Like,
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: So it is a frustrating thing, and I think, you know,
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: you need more than just debunking to combat this stuff,
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: you know, gender disinformation. I don't feel like it can
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: really be addressed through just fact checking or debunking. These
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: attacks are often based in character assassination or just unverifiable information,
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: and so when that is magnified by algorithmic preferences of
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: platforms that privilege fake and outrageous content.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: To enhance profit. We have a real problem.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: It's a tech problem, it's a policy problem, it's a
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: democracy problem, it's a cultural problem.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: It's a lot of problems all rolled into one big
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: ball that like whack.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Playing whack the moll on individual pieces of content just
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: ain't going to cut it right. And so I would
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: say that this really needs to be combated by changing
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: social media platform policies in the long term, and also
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: a cultural understanding of what's going on. Right, So not
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: just being like, oh, well, it's just a platform problem,
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: really understanding the role that, like the way that we're
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: all thinking about and talking about women who run for
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: office and other marginalized people who run for office, really
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: does play a role in pushing back against this.
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: I mean a part of the conversation is that the
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: reason feminism is important, the reason intersectional feminism is important,
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: is to undo the misogyny and the conversations that happened
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: that allowed this to start with, that allow this type
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: of rhetoric to begin with. Like in this conversation, odd
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: because I always go back to thinking, how immediately like
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: a one a man specifically wants to threaten a woman
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: is always some kind of sexual violence that's the immediate
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: part is like their go too. And we know when
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: it comes to war crimes, that's one of the number
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: one things that is used within these wars that are
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: often so like awful. We start thinking about it, like
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: the level of sexual violence that happened to show power
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: and control and a lot all of this has to
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: do with the misogynistic take on power, and it's kind
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: of one of those questions of like how do you
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: even begin, especially when it's so deeply rooted that any
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: almost especially like I'm gonna say this, like uneducated, ignorant people,
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: that's their go to, Like that's the first thing, is
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: that you deserve to be like raped, Like that's their comment,
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: and you see it so many times that it becomes normalized.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, how many of us, like I know
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: that I've experienced this.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that you all have.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: I'm sure that a lot of people listening, how many
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: of us have had some creed say like I hope
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: you get raped, you deserve to be raped. Like the
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: fact that that is hurled at us as a threat
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: when we speak up and use our voices, I think
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: that that illustrates exactly what you're talking about.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Them.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what what can we do then to address
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: this online? Perhaps?
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: So the first thing I would say is really understanding
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: the kinds of attacks that stick and letting that kind
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: of inform your thinking about how you respond.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Right, because not all of these these.
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: Tactics are creative equal, So let's look at the ones
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: that are actually effective at impacting voting behavior. Attacks that
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: seem to pack the biggest punch on voter behavior focus
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: on character things like trust, qualifications, likability, and control with
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: a constant backdrop these like sexualized attacks that we were
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: just talking about. So you can sort of think of
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: these attacks as manifesting in the.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Candidates are untrustworthy.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: So women are liars or hypocrites or too ambitious, right that,
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: like the very fact that this woman is running for
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: office means that there is something off about her, Like
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: you can't trust somebody who wants it too much?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Right, And then meanwhile it's like, oh, so did like.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: The male candidate just like accidentally fill out the paperwork
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: to run and just like accidentally found themselves on a
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: podium like And those attacks really work because trust is
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: obviously a major factor in vote choice. Another one is
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: that women are unqualified women are stupid, weak, incapable, and experienced.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Right, So historically.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: Women must meet a higher threshold to prove their qualifications.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Another is that women are just unlikable. I just don't
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: like her.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: I don't like her face, I don't like what she
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: stands for, difficult to get along with.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: This is one that like you see a lot with
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: women of color.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: You know they're angry or like never satisfied or like
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: what a sour puss. No one likes them. They have
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: annoying personalities. Like women, leaders are expected to be agreeable.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: I remember when Elizabeth Warren was running for president. One
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: of the attacks that her campaign really saw a lot
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: is that she was like too prepared and would would evoke.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Plans for too many things.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: So if you asked her a question, she'd be like, oh,
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: here's my plan on that, or like here's my policy
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: paper on that, and people were like, don't like it too.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I can't be with her.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: It really. I mean, like if.
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: You're if you were a woman who like dominated and
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: led the group project in class, I don't need to
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: tell you that. Sometimes when you're really good and really
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: qualified and know what you're doing, uh, that will be
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: seen as an attack on you.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: We're like used against.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: You to be like, I just don't like her, even
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: though she's like did all the work on this project
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: that I would have gotten an F without her, I
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: don't like it. And lastly that they're uncontrollable. They're too angry,
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: too crazy, too hormonal, too evil, all of that, that
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: they're too whatever to be voted into office. And you
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: can really see how these are like things that kind
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: of there's there's really no way to win because they
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: are sexually promiscuous or they're uneffable, right, so it's like, oh,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: if you're too sexual or not sexual enough, both of
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: those are like attacks, so it's like what are you
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: supposed to do, Like there's no way to.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Win, right. A lot of these are very they're conflicting
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: with each other. It's like you're too ambitious, but you
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing. Like it's like too okay,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I can't prepared. I guess that's bad, too okay.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: Cool, absolutely and so like, and all of these attacks
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: work and they stick despite being like contradictory or like
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: seemingly really silly. They work because of this larger system
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: of unchecked misogyny massage noire and biased against women. That
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: is worse for marginalized women. And so the reason why
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: these are effective and actually you know, not just existing
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: out there but actually impacting voting behavior is because of
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: this larger cultural climate of bias against women and marginalized people.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I know a lot of us have experienced
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: that just in our lives, just seen it. Do you
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: have any tips on how we can counter this or
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: fight back against this?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Totally?
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: So the biggest one, I think is just to share positive,
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: accurate content about women's participation in civic and political life.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: You know, I would say the most effective form of
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: inoculation against this is not like debunking each specific individual attack,
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: It is demonstrating that women belong in political life, that
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: women are good leaders, So really demonstrating women as trustworthy, qualified,
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: and competent. That's the kind of content that we need
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: to really correct the narrative and protect leaders and emphasize
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: the need for women and marginalized people's place in political involvement.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: So take all of that to mean that probably the
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: worst thing that you can do if you're trying to
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: combat this kind of thing is to directly respond or
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: engage with individual attacks because that could amplify them or
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: legitimize them. This is something that I think is really
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: tough and I have to check myself on because when
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: I'm scrolling social media and I see like a lie
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: about a woman, my first instinct is to reply and
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: be like, that's not true, blah blah blah. But because
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: of the way that algorithms work, you actually might be
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: amplifying that because the algorithm is like, oh, you're engaging
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: with this, it must be good content.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Let me show it to more people. So that is
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: not what you want to do.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: Instead, push out positive, proactive counter messaging that supports women
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: leaders as qualified and also acknowledge the kinds of identity
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: based harms that they are facing. So if there's a
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: particular woman candidate that you're like, like, yay, I like
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: this person, emphasize that woman's credentials, her expertise, her background,
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: and her shared values. According to research from Gretchen Barton
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: of the Worthy Strategy Group, there are six intangible qualities
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: that Americans look for in their leaders. They want somebody
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: who is a challenger, a nurturer, an innovator, strong, stable,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: and visible and meets the moment right and so there
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: is a huge disparity in women being and underrepresented in
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: each of these categories that Americans site when they're asked
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: to envision what they want of a leader, And so
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: we should really be working to flip the script a
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: little bit and show all the different ways that these
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: dynamic women leaders that dot our political landscape fit those
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: things that Americans say that they want out of their leaders, right,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: So highlighting the ways that women are innovators, highlighting the
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: ways that women are strong and stable and visible, highlighting
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: the ways that women really are the ones who are
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: rising up to meet the moment and challenging the status quo. Right,
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: all of these things that we know make women great leaders.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: A good way to challenge the lies that women are
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: facing in our current media climate is to highlight.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: The truth about the.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Fact that women do make really good leaders and that
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: we want a pluralistic society where women are well represented.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it's really unfortunate because there are examples of this,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: plenty of examples of women being good leaders, but it
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: always feels like either they're ignored or like, if I'm
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: thinking of cases from outside the United States, like that's
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: the United States, though, like she's a good leader from Europe.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Okay New Zealand, honey, Okay, cool. I don't like that
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: one thing. I have to say. I have had some
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: experiences where I've tried with liberal white men to do this,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: and let me tell you how angry they got. I
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: was shocked. So if that's that's like a to me,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: that a wake up call of how embedded this is.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: That I thought they would at least hear me out,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: and they did not.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I hate to say it.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: I have had the same experience, and I think there
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: are a lot of men in my life that think
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: of themselves as like progressive or radical or lefty or
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: like promoters of democracy. But then even they don't see
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: the ways that misogyny and sexism threaten our democracy, even
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: as those things are so clear to me. And so
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: I've really experienced what you're highlighting that like, even from
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: men who are like ostensibly with it.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: It's just I think it's just I don't think that
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: men see it that way all the time.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: I just think that they that they're like, oh well,
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: sexism ended back in whatever, and like it's just not
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: a topic that I think impacts our lives anymore when
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: it so impacts our lives, and I guess that's one
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: of the reasons why it's so insidious and why it
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: takes such intentionality to combat it, because the things are
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: so ingrained that people might not even realize the ways
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: that they are contributing to it.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Yep. I had a guy tell me there was no
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: sexism in the twenty sixteen election, and I was like,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: you do know what I do for a living, right,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: It's like, I just don't see it. Okay, cool, I'm
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: gonna leave because I'm gonna get real mad. But just
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I don't agree. And a part of that is this
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: idea we shouldn't talk about it, are we should ignore it,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: which is not really helpful.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Always no there, I mean, I'm guilty of this too.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: There used to be this attitude that, you know, the
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: only way to counter these unfair attacks was to ignore them,
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: right like when they go low, we go high, Like
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: don't don't mention it, like it'll go away. I hate
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: to say that that is really a page from an old,
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: outdated playbook. Research really suggests now that ignoring these attacks.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Just doesn't make them go away.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: It just allows them to fester, get amplified and become
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: legitimized and become part of our political discourse.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: And it could also kind of.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: Backfire for women who are running for office, because candidates
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: want to see like strength and backbone and a candidate
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: meeting the moment. And so if you're like I'm not
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: going to respond to that, that can sort of backfire
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: because it's like, oh, well, why isn't she meeting the moment.
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: So that doesn't mean that like a woman candidate needs
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: to get meyred down in the in the bog of
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: like defending herself against unfair lies and attacks. But it's
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: really about emphasizing your accomplishments and qualifications in a way
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: that corrects harmful narratives without repeating those narratives and without
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: legitimizing those narratives. It's like a little bit of a
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: tightrope block to do it correctly. And again, like I
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: just want to emphasize that it's something that we should
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: not have to do. Like certainly male candidates are not
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: having to prepare counter messaging in this way to be like, well,
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: I got to respond to this attack, but in a
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: way that emphasizes my values and thus legitimize it.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: And also like like.
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: It's a minefield that not everybody is asked to wade through.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: So I just want to acknowledge that we should not
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: have to deal with this. However, I have seen a
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: lot of candidates who use these kinds of unfair identity
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: based attacks as an opportunity to really create community and
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: contrast with the people who are hurling these attacks at them.
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: Like a good example is the former Canadian Minister of
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: Climate and Environment Catherine McKenna, exemplified this advice when she
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: pushed back against this this hashtag that she was facing
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: that labels her climate Barbie, which resulted in death threats,
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: and to respond, she tweeted, do you use that sexist
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: garbage about your daughter, mother, and sister? We need more
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: women in politics. Your sexist comments won't stop us. And
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: so that's a really interesting way how she responds to
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: an unfair sexist attack that attacks her gender and makes
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: it about all the other women and girls who are
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: watching this kind of garbage and and being like, don't
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: we want a climate that supports these women and girls
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: to be in politics?
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Like you know, these.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Kinds of comments go against that, like and they're not
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: going to stop us, right, So, like I have seen
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: candidates that really challenge this in some unique ways.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and going back to your point of like, we
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: shouldn't have to be doing this at all, And this
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: is a topic I think about a lot in terms
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: of so many, so many things, But it's not just
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: women who are being targeted that should have to speak
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: up or say something.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I mean,
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: how many of us have been in a situation where
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: somebody says something or does something and you're like, oh,
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: I don't want to be the one that has to
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: be like, well, that's actually offensive, or like that's actually
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: not a cool thing.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: To say in the workplace.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: And it really shouldn't just be on the person who
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: is targeted to respond to this, because challenging a sexist
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: climate really does take all of that to speak up.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: So a good example of this is Fannie Willis, which
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: I think you all might know, do y'all. I feel
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: like in Atlanta she might be somebody who's on Yell's radar.
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: As well as just kicks in the primary, so we're
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: very excited.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: So Willis is the Fulton County District attorney prosecuting the
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: Georgia Trump election case constantly under attack, right, really showing
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: how black women are attacked and undermined, and how that
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: is a strategy to undermine democratic process, So that it
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: was a really good example. On February fifteenth, Willis took
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: the witness stand and right wing actors, including Fox News, surprise, surprise,
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: they circulated this meme that suggested that she had worn
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: her dress backward. So this is a caption that Fox
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: News put out Bonnie set to take the hot seat
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: again after day one packed with yelling a wink and.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Surprise backward dress.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: So basically they were saying, this black woman is so
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: stupid and and competent that can you believe she wore
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: her dress backward?
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: What an idiot? Who would ever believe in her leadership?
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Like that was the substance of the attack.
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: However, a guy on TikTok delegitimized that attack that had
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: broken into mainstream media by pointing out in a TikTok
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: that like, actually, here's the dress and she was wearing
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: it correctly, right, So this was like nonsense that a
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: fairly mainstream news outlet amplified just completely wrong. He found
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: the dress, it's like she's wearing it perfectly correctly.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: While he did.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: That, other institutions put out positive counter content, avoiding the
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: direct attacks while emphasizing Willis's leadership and qualifications in order
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: to target them. So it was this like two pronged
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: thing where the TikTok messenger was able to be like, look,
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: how ridiculous this attack is, y'all, while other institutions pushed
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: out positive messaging about Willis's leadership and so really it
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: should not be on just her, this person targeted to
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: respond to these garbage lies about her character and her
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: values and her leadership. It really takes age to create
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: the culture where sets of them and misogyny is not
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: able to thrive and take root in this way.
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: Yes, and I would like to say Alana backed her
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: like I said, she killed it in the primaries.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: We all celebrated.
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: We love her at this point, Like of course, you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: when it comes to judicial systems in the South, it
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: can get ugly. But when you have a case like
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: this and you realize you have someone who is firm
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: and we love it, like it's it's representing what we
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: want to see in Atlanta, which is we're not taking
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: care from you so move on.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also so many of these attacks that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: we're seeing right now are also distractions from like real
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: things we should be talking about. And it's I mean,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: like she is wearing her dress backwards. It does have
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: these as you said, what they're trying to signal is
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: she is incompetent. But it's also just so like, okay,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: but it's really important that we talk about this because
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: we are in an election year, extremely important election year,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: and all of this stuff is very dangerous.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think like if you're listening and you're like.
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: Well, I don't like Willis, I don't like Harris, I
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: don't like Pelosi, that is your right. However, you should
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: be more than anybody wanting to have a climate where
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: we are able to talk about these leaders and their
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: qualifications and their records in a way that is fair
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: and honest.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Right, Like, when the climate.
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: Is cluttered up with all kinds of garbage, sexist lies
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: and attacks, you can't actually have an honest conversation about
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: why these leaders are failing us or why these leaders
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: are not failing us. It just creates a dynamic where
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: like we're not having a conversation about the actual thing.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: We're talking about backward dresses or whether or not somebody's
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: face looks weird, right, Like, we're just not having a
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: sub conversation. And it does not just threaten the women
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: who are targeted, it threatens all of us. Undermining women
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: leaders is part of a larger anti democracy agenda, right
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: It is not just about these individual women. It is
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: about threatening our democracy. And as you were saying earlier, Annie, Like,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: it is unfortunate that it is very effective because people
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: might not always be able to see the ways that
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: sexism and misogyny and massage noire really threaten the fabric
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: of our democracy. It is this insidious thing that can
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: operate and plain in sight, even amongst people who think
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: of themselves as people who want to protect democracy.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: And so we really need to get a handle on it.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: We need to talk about it honestly, and we need
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: to listen to the people who are targeted and come
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: forward to talk about what they have dealt with just
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: for trying to serve their country or be part of
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: public or civic life.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, and I think I'm sure we'll be talking
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: about the election for several episodes. But it's also I
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: would say sadly of and plenty of my women friends
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: who are like, well, I don't want to vote for
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: her because they're I'm honestly, it sounds like I'm scared
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: to vote for her because what if she's bad? Or
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: like I'm hearing all this stuff about her and she
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: must be bad. So it's a really really toxic environment
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: for like actual conversations and democracy.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean I remember, like I have felt that,
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: like I have been, I have been like, oh, I'm
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: worried about having XYZ marginalized person in public office because
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: we have this insidious culture that it's like, well, we
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: tried one out and it didn't work, so we can
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: ever have another one. And that's just such a like
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: limiting mindset, and it's a mindset that you can creep
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: in before you know it. And we should really be
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: doing the intentional, sometimes internal work of like unwarring the
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: way that these things have really been internalized sometimes by
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: women and other marginalized people.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, well as always Bridget, thank you so much for
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: doing this work, for coming on to share it with us.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: We always love having you. Can you tell the good
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: listeners where to find you?
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: You can find me on my podcast if there are
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: no girls on the Internet, and you can find me
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Yes and go do that. Listeners so important, so important,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: and thanks as always, yes to Bridget and to you
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: for listening. If you would like to contact us, you
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: can our email Stepania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 45:34
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  Speaker 1: on TikTok and Instagram That Stuff I Ever told you.
• 45:39
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• 45:43
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• 45:45
  Speaker 1: producer My and your contributor Joey.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Thank you and.
• 45:48
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