Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan : For The Love of Money - The Death of Fasil Teklemariam

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan : For The Love of Money - The Death of Fasil Teklemariam · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Quody Balus with Joseph Scott More. It's weird when we
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: think about the origins of sayings that we have, you know,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: from over the years, and they kind of enter the
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: lex kind they stay with us, but we don't consider
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: the origins of them. And one in particular that is
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: used is the term rule of thumb, and most people
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: don't think about the origin of that. Now, it's got
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: a dubious origin at best, but when it comes down
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: to it, it's a unit of measurement. And no, it
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the size of a stick
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: one can beat their wife with. That's a fallacy that's
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: been proven as untrue. It's actually a unit of measurement
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: for construction that was devised back in the Middle Ages.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: But today we're going to talk about not a rule,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: but we're going to talk about a thumb, a thumb
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: that was removed from a man's hand, his right hand
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: in particular, in order to accomplish something that is absolutely
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: positively horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks. Dave. Wow,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: this case kind of landed on us for a moment.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Had to go back and reread the few versy lines
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: actually the headline, because the headline that I initially saw
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: contained contained the line that the victim in this case,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: his thumb had actually been removed. And I guess one
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: of the biggest questions is he did obviously recovering on
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: body backs. Well, there you go, and I hope that
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: he was dead when his thumb was removed.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: And I've got to ask you about that, Joe. That's
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: in my notes to ask you. All. Right, here we go.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: We've got fifty three year old fossil Tikelmerian Fossil was
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: murdered and then his thumb was cut off either right
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: before he died or after he died, and was used
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: to access his digital apps for money. I have one
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: of these on my phone where I can use my thumb,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: you know, as an identifier as opposed to typing in
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: a number or anything else. Is my thumb. I'm now
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: considering changing that, But that's.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: What they in the wake of the story.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: You are, yeah, because really I didn't think this was
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: a I didn't think about it, Joe. I just didn't.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: The bottom line always is the bottom line. Fossil was
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: murdered for money. That's it. And there's a total of
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: five people that are involved in this, two women are
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: already in jail, a third one is talking to police.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Doesn't get much deeper than this. No, it doesn't to
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: steal his money, but the fact from an investigative perspective, Dave,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: the beauty of this, if there is beauty, is first off,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: the question that you would ask, what's the purpose of
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: removing the thumb? Okay when you're observing the scene, And
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I think that that's I think that's kind of an
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: obvious question, but not necessarily why the thumb as opposed
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: to the other nine digits that this individual has, because
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: to this point we only know the single digit of
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the thumb that is missing. So is was it a
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: torture event? I think you know, you would you would
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: ask that question. But as it turns out, this is
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: this is what we refer to as biometrics, and there's
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: actually biometric forensics that are out there in the digital world.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: And at boykay, I learned something new. What is biometric.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, biometric forensics? So well, you use it every day.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: We use it every day now. It used to be
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: very space aged. And let me tell you a quick story.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I'm a big James Bond fan, okay, and yes, I
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: to go ahead and clear this up from Jump Street.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: My favorite James Bond of all time Sean Connery. So anyway,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: besides that, there was a movie that was made with
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Sean Connery when he was older, and it came out
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three and it was outside of the
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: James Bond universe, and it.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Was called Never Seen every Day Again.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was Actually I thought it was a
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: very good movie. I enjoyed it because I enjoyed Sean Connery.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: But you know, in that movie, they used an early
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: form of biometrics because the idea was they were trying
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: to get in like every James Bond movie, they're trying
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: to get access to a nuclear weapon or nuclear codes. Right. Well,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: they had taken a US Air Force off officer and
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: done surgery on this guy to implant a retina in
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: his eye, and he was going to pose as another
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: as another pilot, and they had to get biometric I know,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: you're you're rubbing your eyes biometric access to the CODs
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: and they go through the whole thing. It goes into
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: great detail and I was shocked by it. I was
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: very young man when I saw this movie. In the theater.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: But that's the early, that's that's the early, one of
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: the earliest remembrances I have of biometrics, and and still today.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: You know, we use retinal scans, we use palm scans.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: You know, you can place your hand on on on
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: platform and it'll scan your palm. They use facial recognition.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: That's biometrics. So it's the measurement of all things relative
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: to you. And when it comes to fingerprints in particular,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: that's one of the oldest things where we apply in
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: numeric formula two in forensics. It's called the Henry numbering
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: system or the Henry system, and it is it equates it,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: it gives a numerical value to each point of identification
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: along your friction ridge lines. And so they've taken that
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: now and expanded that out into access, security and control.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: And that's what we're dealing with with this poor man's phone.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: And the biggest I think the biggest revealed Dave here
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: is the fact that somebody, if this wasn't torture, somebody
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: had intimate knowledge of him that he used his thumb
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: in order to access his phone. They must have seen
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: him do it before.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Audrey Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray. Audrey's nineteen. Tiffany Taylor
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Gray is twenty two. They both knew Fossil, he's fifty three.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: They knew him. They're very close acquaintance's, business friends, whatever
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: you want to call it. And they knew him in
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: the biblical sense. They knew this man and they knew
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: how he accessed things. As a matter of fact, Tiffany
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Taylor Gray had been charged a year before this with
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: stealing sixteen hundred dollars from Fossil and not exactly sure
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: how all that went down, but anyway you look at it,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of us use our thumb in opening up
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: our phone, and when so many people have their financial
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: data using apps on the phone to pay bills and
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: things like that, once you're in, you're in, and that
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: thumb scan can get you into your banking information in
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of cases.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I am amazed, you know, having a son that is,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: you know, in his early twenties college student, I'm amazed
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: when he it's almost like he's speaking a foreign language. Yeah,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: you know, like, you know, can you shoot me money
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: over a cash app? In some manner? And they can
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: be on multiple platforms and it goes into an account.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I know that seems I seem like an old dinosaur.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I understand that. That's okay. I'll roll like that. I'll
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: take that. But there are so many of these things
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: where this thing, this boat anchor, digital boat anchor, that
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: we all carry around in our pocket, it not only
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: has the ability to track us, but also the most
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: intimate details of our lives. My papa used to say
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: when I was young, he would say, son, do yourself
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: a favor. Never discussed with anybody, what church you attend,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: who you voted for, or how much you make, And
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: in this case, I think the latter was discussed at
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: nauseam Dave, other than the thumb. I think that probably
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that was so
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: striking to me about this case was the fact that
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: they apparently have tons of CCTV footage in this particular case,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: and the fact, you know, people think that they're so
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: smart with the way and that they're so sophisticated with
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: what they can do digitally, but people are so ignorant
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: when it comes to not being not being situationally aware
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: where they If you're going to perpetrate a crime, where
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: you face is constantly being caught on Cameron. They were
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: in the DC metro area here.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I was going to point that out, Joe, and I
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: wonder how different it is there than in other parts
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: of the country. This is in a building, an apartment building, right,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: so depending on the area. I can't imagine not having
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: security cameras in an apartment building like that, you know,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: because something can happen inside that apartment building and you
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: need a record of it. You need to know who
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: was there and when. And that's what we did find out.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: In reality.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I don't know if you've
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: got any friends that live in the DC area, but
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: it is one of the most expensive places in the
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: US that you can live. And so in my mind,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know how much he was paying per month,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: but one of my demands I think would be, if
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I'm paying out this kind of money, I better have security.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I better have CCTV. But you know that any kind
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: of camera that might give you comfort that the people
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: that own the apartment is not necessarily for your benefit.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: It's for their benefit because they're trying to, you know,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: give you the sense of secure or they're trying to
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: knock down the possibility of crime, which of course didn't
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: thwart anything here. I think that goes to the potentially
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the mindset of the people that are perpetrating this. But
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: you know, you would think that you would have an
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: awareness if you're a perpetrator particularly, and I'm going to
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: go ahead and throw out this term, Dave. You you
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: had mentioned that this young woman knew him, and well
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: you said the biblical sense, I'll say, the Abraham Sarah
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: SnSe uh, you know that he you know, he knew them.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: One of these young ladies had actually used the term
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: sugar daddy, said that this this is my sugar daddy.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: And you know, that implication for me flies to first off, prostitution.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: So you know, I'm thinking, okay, so you're actually saying
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: that he's a sugar daddy, you're being paid by him
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: for services. And if you're willing to do that to
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: take money from this man because he's your quote unquote
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: sugar daddy and maybe you're getting favors from him in exchange,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: how many other people do you have in your circle
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: that you're also exchanging you know, I don't know, intimate
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: acts with maybe drugs, anything like this. So all of
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: a sudden, your world kind of opens up when you
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: begin to think about who might be involved in a
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: case like this.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Dave, Well, this is in Fossil actually suffered a beating,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: and you know, we know we led with this. We
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: didn't bury the lead. But the man's thumb was cut
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: off and it we don't know if it was before
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: or after he was dead, but he was beaten, he
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: was stabbed, and the physical attack on this man. We'll
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: know more as it comes out, but right now we
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: do know that he was beaten. And I don't think
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: it was just from these women.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: No, I don't, either of you. I think you had mentioned, Dave,
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: that there were We've got I know, one named male
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: suspect at this point, Tom, and they are apparently a
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: couple of other ones. And again I come back to
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the CCTV.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Uh right, I got I'm Joe actually.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: See you can actually see what appear to be males
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: on those CCTV food.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Well, and I want to apologize. When we started the show, Gang,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: I spilled a cup of coffee that went everywhere, and
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: it's it's a little disconcerting how we depend so much
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: on electronics to this day. And I'm thinking about that
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Joe as I spilled my coffee and I thought these
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: people organized a theft that was based on a murder
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: followed by the hacking of a thumb. I wonder if
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: there was a discussion about what would happen to the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: thumb after it severed from the body. Will it start
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: to immediately? Like the reason I'm saying the coffee thing
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: is I've watched the coffee, the coffee dripping off of
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: one of the tables in here, and I'm watching it
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: constantly drip. But you know what, since I'm not adding
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: any more coffee to that cup this spilled. Once this
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: finish is dripping, there won't be anymore. And I'm wondering
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: about the thumb because once you sever that thumb from
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: the hand, it's now by itself. There's no more blood
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: coming into it, It's just going out. How will that
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: thumb react over a period of time in terms of
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: being able to use it? They used it to open
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: up his phone, to open up his apps and financial apps.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: How long will that thumb last?
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: This might be one of the best questions you've ever
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: posed to me. And I'm glad you opened the door
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: for this, because in the morgue. And let me tell
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: you what we do, because some people are not aware
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: of this. When we pull bodies. Do you remember when
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: you were little, mom, Mom would how long you've been
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: in the pool by how wrinkled your fans? Come here
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: and let me see your hands? Yeah, okay, Well, part
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: of that is kind of a dehydration event that's going on.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And one of the things that you're faced with with
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: with decomposing tissue is this idea of what's referred to
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: kind of one of these ten dollars words of desiccation
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: and desiccation is and we've heard about desiccation like desiccated fruit.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: You can have desicated meat, you know that's been dried out,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: like jerky that's desiccated, and if you like with reduced things,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: if you add water to it, it brings brings the
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: thing back to life. But with for us and the morgue,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: when we're trying to if we have a drowned body,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: for instance, and we're trying to rehydrate the fingers, it's
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: pretty wild. Most people don't know this. What we will
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: do is we'll get the sub it's called tissue builder
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: and more tissians use it. And when we die. If
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: you it's like it's like it's almost like a botox
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: on steroids, because as we die, we our eyes begin
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: to recede back into our head, all these sorts of things,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: and they will apply tissue builder to literally build tissue up.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: And it's an injectable. Well, we use it in the
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: morgue to go right beneath the skin and inject inject
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: this tissue builder in there, and it makes the hand
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: the fingertip reef swell, so we can actually take it
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: and roll a print off of it. The one thing
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you cannot defeat, though, is the process of decomposition, because
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: you can continue to put tissue builder in there, but
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: this is still going to well, I'll just say it plainly,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: it's still going to rot, by the way, oh yeah yeah,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: And even I think you could possibly retard it a
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: little bit if you were this forward thinking, where if
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you took it and placed the thumb in a refrigerator somewhere,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: you're not going to stop decomposition. I think that people
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: believe that placing something in a freezer stops it slows it,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: but it's still going down. And by the way, cold
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: cold dehydrates things too. I mean, all you got to
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: do is literally look at look at a refrigerator. Sometimes, yeah,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: freezer burned. And we also get it on ourselves, you know,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: during the cold weather months. But yeah, it's kind of
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: fascinating how you can build this out because what we're
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: looking for is to try to enhance those friction ridges
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: which are displayed on the surface of the thumb. And
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: here's something really cool. I kind of a little aside
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: for anybody out there that has and this is kind
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: of a horrible connection here, but you'll see where I'm
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: going with it. If you want to introduce your child
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: to forensics on any level, one of the cool places
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: to start is if you will go to a dollar
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: store and buy white balloons, white deflated balloons, and get
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: an ink pad and take your child's finger and roll
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: it on the ink pad, and then take it and
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: place have them put their fingerprint down on the balloon,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: on the deflated balloon, remove it, and then blow the
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: balloon up. All of a sudden, your fingerprint comes to
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: life and it expands out and you can see all
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: of the little details, all the little friction ridges, the minutia, everything.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: You can classify the print. We use this all the
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: time in college. But it's a matter it's a matter
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: of expanding it out to the point where you're able
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to actually see those features. But here's the rub. If
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: you're going to go to the point of planning to
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: do something like this where you're going to obviously kill
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: a man, and after you've brutally killed him by the
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: way you cut off his thumb, have you thought about
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen when everything drives up? My brother, Dave,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: we've got this poor man. I don't care who you are.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: No one deserves to die like he did. I mean,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: this is and when we're about to get into the
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: details of this thing, and when I do, you're going
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: to be shocked if you think the thumb is bad.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: And I still suspect that's probably something that was done
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: post mortem, and I'll tell you why in just a second.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: But there's so much to unpack here. You know, he
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: was I think he would found like after four days.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Well, all right, now, I wanted to ask you about
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: this shoe because, not being the forensic person, I've been
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: around you, for goodness gracious me, over a well over
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: a decade on doing crime related reporting and shows. We've
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: been on the same panel so many times and doing
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: this show talking to you about forensics on and off.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I'm really curious as to how the case is going
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: to be investigated from a police standpoint. You mentioned the
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: CCTV cameras, and they're going to pull that to find
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: out who came in and out of Fossil's apartment. That's
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: going to give you an idea of a when he
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: was killed, when he died, and who are the possible
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: suspects in the killing. And the two women that are
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: already arrested and charged. By the way, they've been charged
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: with first degree murder and armed felony murder. That's Audrey
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray. You've got a nineteen year
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: old woman and a twenty two year old woman. These charges.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Another man, Tommy Whack, What a great name.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: For the same thing.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Man.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Our brains are.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, he's thirty four and he's been charged in
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: connection to the case. There are two more people that
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: have yet to be named that will be charged. And
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: there is somebody talking. Somebody has been filling the police
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: in on this whole thing. You have said it many times,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: somebody always toss.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Somebody's gonna roll over on the other person, you know,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: because they're they're steering, they're staring down the barrel of
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: going to the penitentiary, right, And I don't like using
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: the term prison, by the way. Penitentiary always sounds so
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: much more ominous to me. Yeah, but you know what
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: I'm saying. I mean, you're talking about you're talking about
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: first degree murder and depend upon the state that you're in,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: which I don't think is going to apply here. But
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: when you start talking about first degree, there's all these elements. Obviously,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you know you're looking Some people just say capital, but
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: you're looking many times with first degree, Dave. One of
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: the elements that's contained in there is a premeditative feature.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: You know, that thinking is going on here, like plotting, planning,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And now you've got you know,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: kind of a you know, a confederacy that's entered into
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: the peopling. These guys have entered into a criminal enterproval.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: When somebody shows up in your building wearing masks and
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: they go to your apartment, that tells you there's your
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: pre meditation. They had something heinous online, and that's actually
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: what happened to Audrey Miller Taylor Gray captured on camera
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: going from his apartment, coming and going from his apartment
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: with two other men and wearing masks. So you've got
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: the women going in, you've got them coming out. You
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: had the women going back in with a couple of
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: men going back out. They're wearing the men are wearing masks.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons I say, well, pre meditation.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: There you go. They know they're cameras.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah they do. Hey, can I throw in one more
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: bit here about electronics that you might be amazed by.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Not only did they make off with his electronic devices,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: you know we're talking about I think they even mentioned
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: the term iPad they did. But here's the other thing
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: that they made off with. They made off with a keyfob.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Dave a keyfob that gives you access to the building.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: So guess what, every time that keyfob is tapped to
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: that pad, that initiates a logging event in their electronic
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: log So for us in forensics, you know we're talking
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: about I think I don't want to get this wrong,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: but I think it was like they found he was
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: last known alive like four days prior to they found
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: him four days you know, you can take you can
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: actually get a measurement. Perhaps it would become tangential, but
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: you can get a measurement perhaps relative to how decomposed
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: he was, because after four days his body would have
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: been showing some signs of decomposition. And every time somebody
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: hit that keyfob to get access to the building, They've
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: got CCTV of these people removing stuff and from his apartment.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Joe when because I don't know. Yeah, if you have
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: your thumb cut off and you don't treat it, you
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: just sit there in the chair drinking coffee with your
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: good hand, will you bleed to death? Yeah? And you'll
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: be in excruciating pain as well. It would be a
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: horrible way to die by what's referred to as exsanguination,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: which is a fancy term that they use to talk
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: about bleeding out. So you would exsanguinate and there would
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: be a huge pool of blood that was adjacent. The
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: only thing that might save you is, you know, like
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I said, these indwelling clotting factors that we have. Could
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: the clotting factors outpace or stem the flow, you would
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: have to apply direct pressure. I can't imagine anybody that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: wouldn't grab their thumb with their other hand their stone
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: right applaud direct pressure.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm thinking you would, you'd have to do something.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: But anyway, all right, I tell you cut this guy's
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: thumb off. In life, let me just tell you this,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: there would be blood. Not to say that there's not
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: blood everywhere, but there would be blood everywhere. He would
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: have been pumping blood and you would see it all
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: over the place.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm thinking that there's a fight, something's going on,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: because it wasn't like he was shot in the head
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: from behind and didn't know what was going on and
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: they chopped his thumb off and went about their merry way.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: There was an active fight that took place before he died.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: He had multiple injuries, and that's what I was wondering.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: You know, if his thumb was chopped off while he
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: was alive, it would it be spurting And you have
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: to wonder, Okay, the women did refer to him as
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: a sugar daddy. I have to wonder if there wasn't
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: some animosity, if there wasn't some real hatred going on
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: here between these young women and this man who's paying
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: them for their time and their bodies. But when police
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: actually start their investigation, he's already been dead for a
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: couple of days. They need to find out who did
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: it and it motive is always a good thing when
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: you go to trial. They're trying to figure out why
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: they did it. Sadly, I think this could have been
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: as simple as money and drugs. But what did they
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: do to this man? What did these two women and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: any other people involved do to this fifty three year
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: old man in his own apartment.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was multiple people. I think they stumped
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: this guy out, is essentially what it came down to.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And let me talk to you about these injuries. Now
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: we know that there was an edged weapon involved here.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: He's got multiple stab wounds, including one that's apparently and
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I'll just describe it to you the way I read it.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: He's got an abdominal stab wound that is immediately adjacent
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: to the stomach that is so deep that it actually
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: goes into his spine. So you're talking about probably a
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: person that is laying on their back, because you would
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: have to be in such a position to drive an
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: edge weapon into somebody's body where it actually communicates with
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: the spine. If you're entering it antiily. That's a tremendous
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: amount of force, Dave. So he's already in a position
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: of submission. And this is what I think, all right.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I believe he's been kicked, probably punched. He's got multiple
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: lacerations to about his head. He's got multiple fractures, Dave,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to his skull. This I think, when you look at
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: the frenzied activity of this, this is consistent. You know
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: how I talked about how the thumb was maybe it
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: was a torture event relative to thought. No, no, no, no,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: the thumb came afterwards. They were trying to extract information
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: for him to get to the honeypot, and the honeypot
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: for them was his bank accounts. And maybe, just maybe,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: obviously there's anger involved because you don't go over the
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: top like this. You know where one stab wound would
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: have sufficed you know what I'm saying. No, that's not
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about multiple injuries this guy.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: When the Emmys investigators would have rolled up at the scene,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: this guy would have looked like ground beef. He would
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: have been so brutalized at that point in time, and
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: there would have been blood everywhere because he's got multiple
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: defects in his body, I mean, for lack of a
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: holes in his body that have been created by the knife.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: So he's bleeding out in life. So you're going to
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: have this huge kind of deposition of blood that'll be
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: surrounding the body. And it won't just be around his body.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: If this started somewhere else and he was stabbed in
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: another room, because his body was actually found in the bedroom.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: If if this kicked off in another room and he
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: stabbed initially, you're gonna have a blood trail that's going
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: to lead all over the place. It's this guy's it's
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: almost like I don't know if anyone here has ever
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: done this, but if you've ever been out in the
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: yard and you bumped into a wasp nest, the one
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: thing you're trying to do is get away from it.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: When that first sting, well, just imagine you've got these
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: people that are attacking him. You want to try to
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: put as much distance that initial stab wound or whatever
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: it was. You won't try to put as much distance
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: between yourself and them. You could have deposition of blood
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: throughout the house. I've seen this played out over the
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: years in cases I've worked where you'll have contact trace
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: blood on the walls where people I saw in Travis
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Alexander actually with Jody Arius. That was a great example
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: of this, where you could actually see his movement through
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: the house after that horrible person that stabbed this guy
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: in the shower and at the scene you can see
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: where he kind of walks his hands down the wall.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: He's crawling on the surface of the carpet. Not to
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: mention the deposition over the sink, which was absolutely ghastly
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: because they had clipped his lung. But you have deposition
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of blood, it's gonna not just be on him the
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: floor they it's going to be on the perpetrators as well.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: And I think that's a big, big point to this.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: They're going to have an awareness that they're going to
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: be leaving this house with physical evidence on them, and
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: they're leaving physical evidence behind.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: They tried to clean it up, and I thought that
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: was fascinating the way the police dealt with this in
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: their report, and because it clearly states that they had
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of cleaning supplies that have been used and
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: they didn't get everything. In particular, there was a footprint
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: left behind and all I could think of Joe is
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: because when we clean something on the surface and it
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: looks clean on TV, it shows luminol, you know, using
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: the black lights, spraining of luminol. And here it is.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Now you've got all your stuff right back there. It
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: didn't actually get wiped away. Is that a real thing?
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: It is a real thing. You just better have your
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: camera ready, okay, because you know the luminescence of this thing,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: it only lasts for a few seconds. I think people
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: think that. So what you have to have is somebody
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: that's going to apply this agent. And it could be Illuminol,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: it could be Blue Star. There's a couple of these
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: agents out there. And so you have to have your camera,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: your camera person has to be ready, and you have
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: to have your settings on your camera right because you're
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: doing this in total darkness, right all right, and so
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and it's only going to lumin u s and the
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: you don't want here's the thing from a forensic perspective,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: you don't just want something that looks like a footprint,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: like if it's been left behind by shoe. You want
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: something that you can capture where you're going to be
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: able to find detail in that shoeprint. That you can
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: actually tie back to an individual. And let's just I
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: don't know, let's throw a pair of Nikes. And I'm
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: not a Nike fan. I don't wear Nikes. I'm going
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to be.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. I don't know.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: They have a variety of different patterns. But when you
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: look at shoe patterns, every crime lab has a running
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: catalog of current pattern that are out there, and they
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: can kind of go through and match these things up,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: and they can look at what family. It's like a
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: it looks like genealogy they have. Okay, this is the
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Asex family, this is a Nike family, Adida's family, so forth,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Brooks so forth and so on, and then they kind
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of track down from there and then they try to
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: isolate that.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: So that Joe. Yeah, so that arms.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: The police when they go out, let me see your shoes.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: You know, we're coming in your house. Where's your shoes?
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Because they know that whoever was here in this and
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I think this is probably going to turn out to
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: be a true blood bath. They're going to know, you
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: know that there'll be some remnant left on the shoe.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: We want to we're going to get a warrant for
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: your shoes. We're going to collect your shoes and also
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: any kind of clothing that you might have in the house,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: because look, I have no idea what blood type this
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: guy was, no idea whatsoever. But if his blood is
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: found on them and they can group that blood and
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: then do a DNA, I'm not saying it's slam dunk,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: but I'm saying that that's that's going to be a major,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a major wrinkle thrown into the case for these people.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Now, when the medical examiner released a report, it's never
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: the in depth report that you would see or that
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: you would prepare. This is something you used for the
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: media where they've just kind of, you know, gloss over
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: things and just try to tell a quick story. Yeah,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: but how many of how many of the wounds were
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: actually fatal or was it the combination of all of them.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I think it was the totality of them. Because once
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you start to push push somebody traumatically, you know, one
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: one injury is not necessarily going to dictate dictate that
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: you're going to die, But you begin to heap, and
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I think that any clinician that's fracticing, even in an
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: emergency room, they'll tell you the same thing if you
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: just you know, if you just cut your army, but
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: oh while you got your while you were cutting your
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: arm you fell to the ground, you struck the back
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: of your head, and you've got internal bleeding inside your skull.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: All those two things in combination. So it's it's the
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: totality of all the injuries. Here's here's the thing that
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about. And I hope people don't run screaming
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: into the night when I reveal this about myself in
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the morgue, I've I've actually had to remove fingers, okay,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: in the morgue. And I will tell you generally, with
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: removal of fingers in the morgue, and we do this
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: because bodies are decomposing. And remember I told you we
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: try to rehydrate these these these digits and inject them.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: We have to let them sit up for a little while.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: When you do this, it's not something that you injected
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: and then you immediately go over and roll a print
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: off of it. Dave, did you know that, out of
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: all of the appendages on the end of our hands,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the thumb is the most robust, and I think most
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: of us can look at it. It is the most
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: difficult to separate from the body. Do you know what
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: we what I would use in order to take off.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: We didn't use the scalpel. I used something that you
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: could buy days hardware. I used actually a pair of
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: printing shears with the hooked you know, the hook beak
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: on it, and they were very sharp. We would send
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: it out. We had a knife sharpener that would sharpen
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: these things for us. But even as sharp as that
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: thing was, you just go up to the first knuckle
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: and you cut it. And I'm thinking, knowing what I
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: know about my involvement, you know, of doing exams in
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: the Morgan working with forensic pathologists, I'm wondering, did they
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: did they show up with something like this, would that
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: specific content or did they did they because this guy
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: that he's not a gardener, he lives in an apartment
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: in suburban d C. Did they go to the knife
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: drawer in the kitchen? Is that what they did? And
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: then take a steak because you have to have a
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: serrated edge to get into that joint. You got to
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: find that. And I don't know, maybe these people are
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: anatomical superstars. Maybe they both have PhDs in human anatomy.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know. My suspicion is is that they don't.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I think my question is have they ever participated in
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: an action like this before? And the reason I'm making
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: a big deal out of this is that contrary to
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: which see on television and true crime stories that are fictionalized,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: this is not something that happens every day. This is
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: actually what we refer to as an outlier. That's why
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: that whoever did this was purposed brutal and in the
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: end all they wanted was this man's money, but in
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: the end they got his life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks.