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Episode 3: The Five Ws of Feeding Children · Talking FACS

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Music
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Big Blue Book Club Presents SNACK Club with Courtney Luecking and Anna Cason Featuring Raising a
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Healthy, Happy Eater and How to Raise a Mindful Eater. Now, here are our hosts.
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Feeding children is an adventure. And at some point or another,
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you might have had questions like, am I doing this right? Or is this normal?
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Headlines, things we see online, things we hear from family and friends,
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and even unpacking what we see in the store can have us questioning what to feed our children.
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We want children to have what they need to lead happy, healthy lives.
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And it seems like as soon as we figure something out, it changes.
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That's where we come in. My name is Dr. Courtney Luecking. I'm a registered dietitian
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and extension specialist for family and child nutrition.
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This means I have lots of training and expertise about child nutrition.
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I also have two littles of my own. This combination allows me to talk through
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practical science-based strategies for creating a nourishing feeding environment for your family.
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And my name is Anna Cason. I'm a registered dietitian and extension associate in food and nutrition.
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I don't have kids of my own, but my interests and passion lie in supporting
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healthy food-related behaviors, which begin in childhood.
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In partnership with the University of Kentucky Cooperative Extension Service,
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we present SNACK Club, where we share bite-sized bits of information for Supporting
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Nourished, Active Children in Kentucky.
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So come for the snacks and stay for the support. Hi, I am really excited about this episode.
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I am too. It's probably one of my favorite topics to like talk to someone about.
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Yes. I had first learned about this concept of the five W's or maybe that's
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what I've called it, but this idea of roles and responsibilities during mealtime,
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I first learned about it in my first job as a dietician.
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I was working with the women, infants and children program, went to a training
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and I was like, wow, this makes it so much easier for me to talk about feeding with families.
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And now that I have children of my own, it's becoming personally interesting and a helpful reminder.
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So I'm so pleased that we can share it with us today.
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Yeah, I'm excited to hear about your experiences with your kids and then to
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share about my general experience just with the education of it all.
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Yeah, so what we're talking about today, mealtimes can feel like a chore or
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a struggle wherever you are in the parenting journey.
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And part of that might be the tension between us wanting to provide,
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us the adults, I should say, wanting to provide nutritious foods and then wanting
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children to eat those foods.
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And there might be a difference between what they actually want to eat or what they're asking for.
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Yeah. And so that can be this power struggle.
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Yeah. And so we're going to talk about this idea of the division of responsibility.
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So Anna, why don't you tell us what does that even look like?
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So essentially, it's talking about the division of responsibility within mealtimes
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or snack times around food altogether.
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So caregivers, parents, they are responsible for providing the what,
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so putting the food on the table or in front of the little one,
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and then also deciding where and when meal or snack times will happen.
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So really setting that structure.
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And then once that is provided to the child, the child is then responsible for choosing,
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what to eat out of what is put in front of them and how much of that to eat
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so let's put this as an example so that's kind of like how we got to the w's
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right who or what when where and kind of this idea of whether yeah i guess there's
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only four but i know there's a thin towel where i watch.
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But so yes like let's give an example where we're sitting at a table and there's
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a lot of food left on the kid's plate.
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And a parent with good intentions just says, you haven't had enough to eat yet.
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Or you haven't finished your insert whatever nutritious food they're providing.
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Yes. And so that could be a little bit of pushback then that we get from kids.
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And so that's an example of where a parent or just a caregiver is stepping over
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that boundary of roles and responsibilities.
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Yeah. Yeah. They're providing an external cue to the child rather than allowing
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the child to decide for themselves how much and what they want to eat.
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Yes. And so it's true. Adults have a lot more experience and we know a lot more than children.
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And at the same token, we're not in their bodies. And so I think that's what's been helpful for me.
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We as adults, we know more about what kinds of foods are nourishing for children's
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bodies. so we can make those decisions for what.
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And then we kind of have a better understanding of growth and development that
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foods might be needed more often throughout certain periods of life when they're
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young or growth spurts or things of that nature.
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And then our role to help set up for success when we're determining where that's all happening.
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So that's how we can share our wisdom.
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But when we're trying to lean into this trust, I think that's where it becomes a tension, right?
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It's like we want to control, but at the end of the day, we have to trust,
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trust ourselves that we can do those three things and then trust that children can do it.
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Do their job of the decision for themselves. Yeah. So why don't we talk a little
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bit more about hunger and satiety or fullness?
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Because I think when we're looking at a plate, we think, oh yeah, you had enough.
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This happened to me last night. I was my little, she's 19 months and she just
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wanted more applesauce, more applesauce.
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And so I kept giving her more and I was struck. I'm like, I just want dinner
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time to be over. They fall into bath and bedtime. time.
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But then I was like, oh, maybe she really does want more. So it was like having to have that moment.
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Yeah. Like I want to move on with my day, but she wasn't quite ready.
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So maybe let's tune into that hunger and fullness. Yeah. Yeah.
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So that really plays into the child's role of deciding how much.
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So they can tune into their bodies and listen to what it's saying to decide
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if they have eaten and if they feel satisfied with what they've eaten or if
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they are still hungry for more.
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And it's the caregiver's role to kind of help them tune into it.
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So instead of saying, are you done?
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You can phrase it as a question so that they can check in with their body.
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Are you full or are you still hungry?
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So really letting them tune in and then provide find the answer.
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And then from there, just moving on.
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So I like that. It's such a small difference in what you just said. Are you done? Mm-hmm.
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Rather, and then transitioning that to saying, are you full or are you still hungry?
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Kind of providing those options. And so I, in a previous work life,
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I guess I worked with adults.
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And a lot of times they were like, I don't know what hunger feels like.
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Or they were describing these really extreme like, oh, that's hungry.
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And they're like, I had no idea. So I know that you have had some great experience
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with kind of the body cues and things. So why don't we talk more about how do
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we as adults know if we're hungry and then how we could share that with kids
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and let them tune into that?
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Yeah. So really for adults to be able to recognize it, it does start at a young age.
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So kind of what we have talked about in previous episodes, if we're encouraged
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to completely clean our plate or finish a certain amount of something,
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then that's really overstepping.
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That option or opportunity to check in and see if we have had enough.
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So kind of figuring it out as adults, then we can teach children at a young
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age to kind of do this and then they can carry it on to adulthood.
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So some of these signs or symptoms that we often probably all of us recognize is like being hangry.
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Or once you kind of hit that point where you're like, I need food now,
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my mood has changed because I'm hungry.
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Like my body is telling me I need food. Oh, my gosh. I just,
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quick aside, but I think those listening could probably relate.
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Like, I can literally see a switch flip in my kids. And it's like,
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oh, we've actually named their alter egos.
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And so my older ones now able to say like, oh, so-and-so is here because she's like hungry.
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But yes, yes, the switch flips. Yeah. So I feel like that's,
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yeah, that's the extreme side of hunger.
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And there are some maybe more subtle cues or signs that kind of lead up to that,
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that we can, once we know about them, we can start to recognize them both in
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ourselves and then also in our children.
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So one of them for within ourselves,
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like if we start to think about food or fantasizing about our next meal,
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like if you're at work and you realize that you're daydreaming about what you
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packed for lunch or something, that's kind of a signal like,
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oh, maybe my body's starting to hint that hunger is starting to creep up.
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So it's not something that's driving your mood or anything, but it is just kind
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of in the back of your mind. And it's like, oh, okay.
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Maybe a little hungry now. And so for kids, I'm thinking that might look like
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when they come to you and they're like, I want this, or I want that,
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or they just say, I'm hungry.
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That might be kind of that early sign.
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And we'll talk about how to navigate that, but yes. Okay.
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So we're thinking about it and maybe as kids we verbalize it.
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Yeah. And then some of the more, so that's kind of more of like a mental in our head.
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We're thinking about it, but then also some physical signs.
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So like brain fog, or if you feel like you're having a hard time making decisions
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or you're starting to feel fatigued, like oftentimes we yawn and we say,
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oh, I just need more coffee or I just didn't sleep well last night speaking to me.
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So a lot of times those are our body's ways of telling us like, hey, I need true energy.
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Like I need that fuel in the source of food. So those are some of the more subtle physical ways.
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Our body's telling us that we're hungry, which again, eventually if we don't
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feed it, then that's when we have the adult temper tantrum and we get hangry
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and we're like, oh, I need whatever food is in sight.
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Okay. So for kiddos, then they may not,
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quite be able to verbalize, like my brain's foggy, but again,
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maybe if you just start to see their energy, kind of those natural lulls in
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the day, we could think about those might I'd be at opportune times to plan snacks, for example.
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So wanting to kind of, it is important for children to feel hunger and feel satisfaction.
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So we're not trying to say like, make sure your kids are fed at all.
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Because part of that is just the natural rhythm and cycles of our bodies functioning.
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But also planning ahead and structuring the day so that it doesn't get so extreme
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where they're so hungry and then so full. Yeah.
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So having that plan and having snacks on hand, whether it's like a granola bar
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or nuts, something that's easy to pack, or if you're at home, having some snacks.
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Produce that's available in the fridge so you can quickly grab it and serve
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it with a dip or something like that.
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So I think this kind of tying it back to these W's and like the trusting,
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we're trusting that kids know when they've had enough,
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but they need to be able to trust us that we are providing those nourishing
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foods that can sustain that energy and can sustain that satisfaction between meals and snacks.
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So it is this careful dance, if you will. Like tug and hold?
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I don't want to say tug of war. That sounds really intense. It's like a back
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and forth. Yes. On the give and take. Yes. Okay. Okay. Great.
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Let's see. So we've talked about the W's. One thing I want to circle back to,
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and in a previous episode, we talked about what to feed children.
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And it's also from Ellen Satter, who's this registered dietitian.
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She's a licensed therapist.
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She's done a lot in terms of the child feeding. So she created this idea or
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framework for the Division of Responsibility.
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She also created this hierarchy of food, which is similar to Maslow's hierarchy
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of needs, right? Like we need fundamental need met.
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And so when we talk about all of these ways that we can make small improvements
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to how we're feeding children or what we're feeding children,
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I do want to be mindful that we're We're not overlooking kind of those fundamental issues.
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So that hierarchy at the base is access to enough food.
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Because at the end of the day, we need to be secure that we have enough food in that moment. Yeah.
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Kind of that second level, once we have enough food, it's like,
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okay, is it enough foods that are acceptable to us?
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They may not be our favorite foods, but they're pleasing enough.
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And then we start to think longer term. So those are those most intimate,
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like in the moment needs that we have.
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Then we need this next level is do we have access to foods over time that are pleasurable to us?
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And then we can start to talk about new or different foods. A lot of times we're
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We're jumping all the way up on the hierarchy.
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And we can talk about this in later episodes because that is part of exposing
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children to new foods and things like that.
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But wanting to be mindful that, yes, we need some basic needs about having access
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to enough foods and ideally ones that we like to be comfortable and feel safe
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to then explore new or different foods and then maybe select foods because of
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both the nutritional value that they offer us as well as the pleasurable factor.
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So, kind of a quick random tangent, but just one didn't want us to come across
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as like out of touch with understanding that what families are facing on any
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given day or week or month or year,
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it could look very different. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
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Okay. So, that was my random soapbox, I guess.
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So, let's go back then. We're talking about, we talked about language.
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You gave examples of kind of these small changes.
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Let's talk about this idea of control. We talked about trust,
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but maybe if we look at the flip side of control, this idea of pressuring or restricting.
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So can you give an example of what it would look like for us to pressure a kid
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when they're at the table? Yeah. Yeah. So let's set the scene.
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We're sitting at the table and child has broccoli left on their plate.
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They maybe haven't touched it at all. And you, as the caregiver or the adult
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in the situation say, oh, you haven't eaten your broccoli or before you get
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up, you need to finish blank.
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That would be again, that external cue, that pressure put on for the child to.
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Eat. Yes. And so there's such a fine line and, you know, there's no single wrong
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or I shouldn't say there's no single right way to go about this,
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but that fine line between pressuring and encouraging.
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And so what I thought was really interesting in the Raising a Healthy,
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Happy Eater, they talked about whether it's okay, I'm using air quotes,
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okay to say you don't have to eat that. Yeah.
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Or kind of creating this guideline that in our family, we all take a bite.
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So there are different schools of thought here. And I want to acknowledge that
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sometimes people phrase it as a no thank you bite.
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Some people think that's really great because it gives that freedom and flexibility
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for the child to say, like, tried it. No, thank you.
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And then other people say, no, that's like setting children up to not want to eat whatever is served.
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And so just finding out what works for a caregiver and a child about how important it is to experience.
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I won't even say eat because that's really far down the line of all the sensory
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experiences that are happening, but to experience.
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Just allowing that exposure to the food in a bunch of different ways.
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I really love how in the book, they talk about how if a child reacts negatively
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to a food that is being served at dinner, I think they use asparagus as an example.
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But if a child reacts and is like, no, I don't want asparagus,
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just acknowledging it and saying, we're having asparagus tonight for dinner,
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or we're having asparagus, it's on your plate, and then changing the subject, moving on.
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So not necessarily reacting to the emotions that the child is having around
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the food, just kind of acknowledging it.
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Like this is what we're having tonight, moving on and not saying anything about
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you're expected to eat it, or there's a certain amount that you have to finish
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or that you even have to try it.
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But again, just exposing the child to the food, being on the plate and moving on from that.
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Such a helpful reminder. Yes, it can become emotionally charged,
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especially if we are all arriving at mealtime hungry or hungry.
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It's been a long day and there are high emotions. I can think of a story recently
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where I was just putting food on a plate for exposure.
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I had zero expectations that it would be consumed.
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And the anger emotions were really high. And the food was literally walked from
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the table back over to the kitchen and plopped in there.
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And I just chose to ignore the behavior.
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So sometimes we can ignore rather than, as you said, engaging in the emotions that are happening.
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So yeah, instead of pressuring kids to eat, like, you have to try this, you have to try,
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trying to remain calm. Just even a smile is helpful.
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I love to think about green eggs and ham. Have you read that book before?
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It's been a long time. I don't know how to reason to read this one that I have,
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but we've read it a couple of times over the preschool years.
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And I'm like, oh, Sam is such a great role model for encouraging.
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He's always offering this grumpy guy, or I think the character's a guy, green eggs and ham.
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And Sam's always smiling and it's just offering it in new ways or different
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ways. Like, what you could do on a boat? What you could do with a goat?
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And then he replies, no. But over time, that repeated offering,
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the smile or pleasantries, although recently we were looking through and he's
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not smiling on every page.
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My oldest then, it was like a game over. He's not smiling there.
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But to say like, that's a great example of how we can be subtly encouraging
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and not pressuring to introduce foods.
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Yeah. And that kind of goes back to the trust. The child will trust in the caregiver
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that they are providing foods.
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And then again, they can kind of tune into their own body and eventually decide
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when and if it is the right time to try it or taste it. Yes.
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Pressuring is that great example of when we're stepping over that trust and trying to control.
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Restricting is another way that we as adult caregivers can overstep our roles.
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And so what would an example of restriction look like during a meal?
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Well, like for example, last night with your little, when all she wanted was
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more and more applesauce, an example of restricting would be saying,
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no, you've had enough applesauce.
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Here is this instead. Or again, telling them whether they can have it.
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Yeah. Great example. The feedback felt like doing it and I almost did it,
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but then she just started eating other stuff on her plate.
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So something waiting can be like, no response can be helpful. and
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a lot of times restriction might also and pressure can go
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hand in hand and we can think about like rewarding with
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foods or punishing with it's like well if you
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eat your vegetables you can have dessert yeah type
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of thing and usually like it may seem to work in
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the short run but in the on the long term it tends to backfire children tend
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to like those foods you're wanting them to eat less or kind of this dessert
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becomes put on a pedestal yeah or overstepping and eating past their hunger
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cues because they want something else.
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And then just like running over their hunger and fullness cues altogether.
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Absolutely. We've been talking about a few small things that we can do.
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Let's talk about a few other small ways that we can change the what,
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the when, or the where when it comes to establishing a nourishing eating environment.
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So what could we do instead of taking plates away without checking or even filling
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them up if we see a plate's empty and just automatically filling them up.
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Yeah. So one of the options with filling the plates is having family-style meals
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where you allow the child to serve themselves and decide how much of something they want.
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So instead of presenting a full plate to them and expecting them to eat it all,
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giving them a plate whenever they're old enough to serve themselves and then
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allowing them to decide what to eat.
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How much of each food they want to get. And then same thing at the end,
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not assuming that they're done with anything, but kind of like we touched on
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earlier, asking them if they are full or if they are still hungry and then letting them decide.
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Yes. And family style dining, I'm glad you brought it up.
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It was in both of these books that we're reading and they had the slightly different takes on it.
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The one was like a staunch advocate, like this is the way we feed our children
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and the others were like, you know, it's just an idea.
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And it may not work, right? Like the areas where you're eating,
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we have space for all, like, I think of Thanksgiving meals when I'm thinking
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of that and just the spread everywhere yourself. Yes.
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But an alternative to that might be having everything in the kitchen or wherever
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you prepare your food and then walking through and kind of like if you were
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in a buffet style, pulling it like, okay, we have that, like,
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so presenting what is there.
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And then there's that back and forth of choice and things like that. Okay.
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So that's a great idea. Another thing is like children eating alone,
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kind of the where and the when.
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Yeah. So what do you... Kind of creating some structure around that and like
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setting a time and place for meal and snack time so that they're really able
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to tune in to eating and not having distractions for that.
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So instead of having the child eat alone, Even if you're just sitting at the
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table with them, maybe you are not hungry, you've checked in and you've decided
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you don't want anything,
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still sitting there and having a conversation with them and allowing them to
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enjoy the experience can have a big impact.
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Okay and then this idea
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of having really strict limits like again
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we're trying to do our best by creating a solid foundation of
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what we're serving or when or where but life can
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be pretty unpredictable predictably unpredictable i should say so how might
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we be able to approach that so what do you like a little more yeah so if we
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have these for hard and rigid like if we're like we don't eat after seven o'clock
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in this house or something like that?
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What might be a more realistic way that we could navigate this what,
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when, and where, even when our schedules may not be under our control?
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Yeah, well, I think kind of just acknowledging the situation from the beginning
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and then saying like, if it is dinner, if it's the last meal of the day,
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acknowledging like this is when we are eating, this is what we are eating.
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The next time we're eating will be breakfast tomorrow morning.
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So then again, allowing them to kind of check in and decide.
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Am I hungry? And then how much of this will I eat?
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Yeah. So all of these are very subtle things, but that's not to say they don't
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require a lot of effort or intentionality. Yeah. Yes.
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And so giving ourselves grace and then just committing to these.
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But I think your ideas of really helping children distinguish,
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like, have you had enough or are you still hungry?
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Tuning out the distractions so that children can focus on.
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That's like our job still the where and when
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that's that environment and so that allows them
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to focus so i think we've we've
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covered a lot yeah today so maybe let's recap so the roles of children and adults
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we dividing it up adults are responsible for providing the what so what is being
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served for meal or snacks and then
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the when and where meal or snacks are happening and And then the child,
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once presented with this format,
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they decide whether they're going to eat the foods there and how much of those
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foods they're going to eat.
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Yes. And so this might take us a bit of reflection or observation even to say,
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what are we doing currently?
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It may be different than what we're doing. And so having some conversations
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about what we're committing to, the small changes to modify,
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to kind of have control where it makes sense within our role,
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and then lean into trust for one another that we can do that.
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Yeah. And the trust kind of goes along with tuning in both with ourselves and
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checking in with the child to allow them to reflect on their hunger and fullness levels.
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Yeah. So if people are wanting resources, we'll have some links in our show
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notes about scales that you can use at the start or end of meals to check in
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with how hungry or full you or children are.
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As well as if people want to make changes, like kind of those small changes we talked about.
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People are always welcome to reach out to us at...
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Snack club s-n-a-c-k-c-l-u-b at
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uky.edu thanks for tuning
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in yeah and we hope you'll join us again thanks for joining us for another episode
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of SNACK club resources related to the topics discussed in this episode can
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be found on our website linked in the show notes your local cooperative extension
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office is also a wealth of information and can provide links to local resources
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if you have If you have other topics you would like to hear about,
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send us a note at snackclub@uky.edu.
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That's S-N-A-C-K-C-L-U-B@uky.edu.
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And as a reminder, the digestible bits of information we share are like navigation
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signs for your feeding journey, but you may need to contact a healthcare provider
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for more personal advice.
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And last but not least special thanks to our team behind the scenes Mindy McCulley
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for bringing this audio and video file to life with her technology skills and
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to the people through her marketing magic and to Kelly Thompson for her creative
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ability to turn one conversation into our snap club symbol we hope to see you again soon.