Latest / New Worlder / Episode #89: Matthias Ingelmann

Transcript

Episode #89: Matthias Ingelmann · New Worlder

0:00
SPEAKER_00: This is the New Worlder podcast and I am one of your hosts, Nicholas Gill.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: Today we are speaking with Matthias Engelmann,
0:12
SPEAKER_00: who is the bar manager of Kohl Mescaleria and Kohl Restaurant in London,
0:17
SPEAKER_00: England.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Matthias is German-born and has worked in a lot of great bars around Europe,
0:23
SPEAKER_00: but once he started drinking mezcal,
0:26
SPEAKER_00: he went down the rabbit hole with agave spirits and
0:29
SPEAKER_00: as many of us do.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: He has now built one of the UK's largest mezcal collections at Kohl and is
0:36
SPEAKER_00: continually expanding that collection as Kohl expands.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: They just announced another restaurant with a cocktail-heavy menu called Fonda,
0:44
SPEAKER_00: which will open later this year.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Like at Kohl,
0:47
SPEAKER_00: the restaurant,
0:48
SPEAKER_00: there is a strict policy of only importing a few basic ingredients like corn,
0:54
SPEAKER_00: chocolate,
0:54
SPEAKER_00: and dried chilies,
0:56
SPEAKER_00: So there are no limes to use in cocktails there.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: No grapefruit juice for Palomas either.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: He talks about how he started importing verju,
1:05
SPEAKER_00: unfermented grape juice,
1:06
SPEAKER_00: as one of the ingredients to provide the acidity in some drinks.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: And how he uses seasonal herbs like pineapple weed to bring tropical flavors into the bar.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: We also talk about Cole's partnership with the Sin Gusano Project in Mexico.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: which is allowing them to work directly with several small mezcal producers for
1:25
SPEAKER_00: their own line of six different spirits from different parts of Mexico.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: And those will be used in the bar and also sold at the bar, but not commercially.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: There is a lot going on with mezcal as it becomes more mainstream that you,
1:40
SPEAKER_00: the consumer,
1:41
SPEAKER_00: should be aware about.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: Commercial brands are coming in and they're locking small distillers into contracts.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: They're monocropping espadrille all over Oaxaca and they are putting pressure to
1:53
SPEAKER_00: try to produce more and more mezcal in unsustainable ways.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: It's not at tequila levels yet.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: And so far, it's pretty much concentrated in Oaxaca and not other agave producing regions of Mexico.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, there aren't Kardashians selling mezcal as far as I know.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: But at the rate Mezcal is increasing in popularity, we are not that far off.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: That's why it's extremely important if you are a bartender to buy Mezcal from
2:23
SPEAKER_00: sources that champion small producers and to educate your clientele.
2:30
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2:32
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2:36
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2:41
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2:46
SPEAKER_00: Again, that's newworlder.com.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Also, we now have a New Worlder YouTube channel.
2:53
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2:58
SPEAKER_00: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Hey Matthias, how are you?
3:47
SPEAKER_02: Good, hi.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, I'm very good.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: How are you?
3:50
SPEAKER_03: Hi Matthias.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Where are you at right now?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm in London.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm actually in our office right next to where Kohl is located and where the Kohl Mescaleria is located.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: And, yeah, just closing of the day.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: We have 5.30 in the evening here.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: I guess in your place it's more in the morning right now.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: It's midday for me.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Juliana's in L.A., so it's, yeah, early.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: What is it, like 9 something?
4:19
SPEAKER_03: 9.30 here.
4:20
9.30.
4:21
SPEAKER_03: All right.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm about to go for a drink after, and you have a coffee.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: So how did you first get into mezcal?
4:30
SPEAKER_02: Let's, let's start there.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, I started, but I started bartending around 12, 13 years ago and,
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Being in like the spirits industry and being in the bar industry,
4:46
SPEAKER_01: I think you're getting exposed to mezcal tequila,
4:48
SPEAKER_01: but obviously mezcal as well,
4:49
SPEAKER_01: then quite pretty much straight away.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: Even though back then in Europe 12 years ago, so that was like 2012,
5:00
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't that much available, right?
5:02
SPEAKER_01: You had like a couple of brands.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: You had, I don't know, brands like Del Maguey was available.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: You had, I don't know, maybe like some Illegal or so, but like not like much variety.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And then obviously like time ticked along,
5:16
SPEAKER_01: working in bars,
5:17
SPEAKER_01: always like seeing here and there some mezcal,
5:19
SPEAKER_01: but like it wasn't like,
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I didn't work in any like agave-focused or mezcal-focused places until I moved to Paris,
5:28
SPEAKER_01: which was in 2019.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: And I started working for a group called Quixotic.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: And they have a place called Candelaria in Paris.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: It's quite like a mezcal-focused and tequila-focused bar.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: I've worked for another side of their business.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: So I worked in another restaurant, which was much more sustainability-focused and French spirits.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: But there I got much more exposure to agave spirits in general.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And we had lots of chats and did work across the group and consulting things and stuff like that as well.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: But then really, really exposed to mezcal.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: I got pretty much when I then moved back to London to work with Santiago,
6:05
SPEAKER_01: who I met through a mutual friend.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And then for us, luckily, we had COVID and a COVID break.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: So we had a lot of time to spend learning about mezcal and tasting and reading and
6:17
SPEAKER_01: talking to people and exposing ourselves to everything agave focused.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
6:24
SPEAKER_01: that was like my last,
6:26
SPEAKER_01: basically the last four years I spent at Kohl in the Mescaleria in the restaurant
6:32
SPEAKER_01: and just spending a lot of time learning about agave spirits and learning how much
6:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about it.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Candelaria in Paris.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that one.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: How long has it been around?
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's been around quite a while.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: I think Candelaria is around, let me lie, I guess more than 10 years.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: Probably like 12, 13 years.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: It was the first bar they opened back then.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: And one of the first, if not the first agave bar in Paris.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: And it's still around.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: I think it's in the 50 best bars as well.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: They're doing a great job and they always have a great agave selection.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that has to be one of the first...
7:13
SPEAKER_00: If not the first agave bars in Europe, right?
7:17
SPEAKER_00: In Europe as well, yes.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: So basically,
7:20
SPEAKER_01: I think Paris always,
7:22
SPEAKER_01: or like always is the wrong word,
7:24
SPEAKER_01: but like in the last,
7:25
SPEAKER_01: had like much earlier than lots of other places in Europe,
7:28
SPEAKER_01: had a quite strong mezcal community because it had a quite strong Latin American
7:33
SPEAKER_01: community as well.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: So you have quite a few agave-focused bars in Paris.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: You have Le Mescaleria as well and Candelaria and then some other places where
7:45
SPEAKER_01: there's definitely more mezcal than in other places.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: In London, you had a much stronger tequila community with Café Pacifico.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: which is from Thomas Estes and Tequila Ocho.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And then Mescal really caught up over the last, I don't know, three years, four years.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And now like accelerated a lot.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: And suddenly you have like so many different agave places.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: And obviously London is like compared to the rest of Europe,
8:11
SPEAKER_01: always much closer to the US in terms of trends and what's happening.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: And so agave is like really picking up and you see it everywhere.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: And mezcal bars are opening and tequila bars are opening.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: And it's definitely like quite the hype around it currently.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's happening really fast.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Like I can remember like when mezcal first kind of came to New York and that was like 15 years ago.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: And...
8:38
SPEAKER_00: And then it was like, you know, like one bar opened, I forget what, like Castle Mezcal or something.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: I think that was the first one or one of those places.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: And it just like snowballed and exploded.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: And it's been like.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: And I see how it's spreading around Europe.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: In Asia, there's mezcal all over the place.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I was in South Africa a few weeks ago, and suddenly people are importing mezcal.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: You even have mezcal from South Africa, like agave spray.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I heard of that, too.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's strange.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: It's not strange.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of surprising that it's happened so quickly.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: I think it speaks for the...
9:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
9:23
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like a thing of our time now,
9:27
SPEAKER_01: but it's also...
9:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it speaks for the fascination and for the...
9:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
9:32
SPEAKER_01: also for the flavor,
9:33
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
9:33
SPEAKER_01: but also just like passion of the people and what agave and what agave spirits are about.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think in general, Mexico is quite like a hot, very cool country right now.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So I think that...
9:48
SPEAKER_01: even like from Europe during during COVID, lots of people went to Mexico.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Right now,
9:53
SPEAKER_01: it's like it's quite trendy country to be in,
9:55
SPEAKER_01: like not only agave spirits,
9:57
SPEAKER_01: but also when it comes to food,
9:58
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to culture,
9:59
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to,
10:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
10:00
SPEAKER_01: partying and everything.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that was like
10:05
SPEAKER_01: in the US much earlier the case and now it's like picking up with like,
10:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
10:09
SPEAKER_01: travel is like as easy as it ever was,
10:11
SPEAKER_01: right?
10:11
SPEAKER_01: But also it's just more accessible and like, it's just like a cool country right now to be in.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people travel to Mexico quite regularly.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: But then I think Mescal is just like a thing of like availability.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: So you have much more distribution now in the UK,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: you have much more distribution in Europe and you have more and more educated
10:31
SPEAKER_01: people
10:32
SPEAKER_01: guests i think i spoke to someone else a few months ago and then i said that i
10:36
SPEAKER_01: think that in the us you still have more educated guests and educated drinkers when
10:41
SPEAKER_01: it comes to mezcal which like then he quite heavily disagreed with me and he said
10:45
SPEAKER_01: that like probably in the the real like knowledgeable people it's pretty much the
10:50
SPEAKER_01: same like relatively the same amount as in europe
10:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just the general knowledge that agave spirits exist and mezcal is made from
11:00
SPEAKER_01: agave and is from Mexico is probably more spread in the country.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: But I really like the differences between the different agave variations and the different productions.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: There are probably also not that many people who actually really know about that as is here the case.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think availability is just much, much bigger these days.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's a really fascinating spirit, not only
11:26
SPEAKER_01: not only flavor wise but just like to discover and like this there's so much story
11:30
SPEAKER_01: behind it it's not i think like compared to like a spirit like gin or vodka there
11:34
SPEAKER_01: is so much more because like you have so many different agaves you have so many
11:39
SPEAKER_01: different production methods so many different people like it's like very very
11:43
SPEAKER_01: small production it's like just like really really fascinating it's like and i
11:47
SPEAKER_01: think as soon as like if you're into spirits as soon as you like get like
11:51
SPEAKER_01: get connected to agave spirits,
11:52
SPEAKER_01: you pretty much,
11:53
SPEAKER_01: it's very difficult to stop and,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: like,
11:55
SPEAKER_01: say,
11:55
SPEAKER_01: ah,
11:55
SPEAKER_01: that's not for me.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I've never heard anyone say that.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, that's, like, they've, like, started drinking mezcal and, like, ah, it's not for me.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: No, it's, like, everyone kind of just, like, falls into that, uh,
12:08
SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite a very, quite dangerous rabbit hole.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: And there's so much to learn and like there's so much to discover.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And like you think like, oh, now I learned a little bit and I know a bit more.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: And basically the next step is like that you have a feeling I don't know anything
12:23
SPEAKER_01: anymore because everything you can start question everything.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: And then,
12:27
SPEAKER_01: and then you start basically from scratch again,
12:29
SPEAKER_01: it feels like,
12:30
SPEAKER_01: and you're learning about like the different states and then like,
12:33
SPEAKER_01: obviously like legally,
12:34
SPEAKER_01: it's also a tricky topic,
12:35
SPEAKER_01: which like kind of like probably almost helps that like,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: oh,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: what is mezcal and what is agave spirit and what is tequila and why aren't some
12:43
SPEAKER_01: people can't call it mezcal and what's happening now and regulations.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: And there's so much myth mystic around it that it makes it like really,
12:51
SPEAKER_01: really like such a fascinating spirit.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: There is this trend now.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: It's undeniable.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: It's worldwide.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: But there's also dangers in that, I think.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I think we're becoming more aware of those dangers.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't go to Oaxaca that often, but I've been a few times and spread out over the years.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: I've seen changes in
13:20
SPEAKER_00: the way mezcal is being produced and things.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: And,
13:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:25
SPEAKER_00: and like you can now see these kind of like these monocultures of like espadine and
13:31
SPEAKER_00: things where that never used to be the case.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: And,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: it's like rather than sourcing from from the wild or from like agave from Milpas,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: it's,
13:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:41
SPEAKER_00: it's being grown in these kind of like plantation style plots sometimes.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: And it's
13:49
SPEAKER_00: And,
13:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: it's in all these international brands are coming in and they're putting pressure on,
13:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:55
SPEAKER_00: the distillers to produce more and more.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: And then they lock them into these contracts that are restricted.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: They can sell to,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: like how you can source a mezcal in a way that,
14:05
SPEAKER_00: that doesn't just kind of,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: turn it into tequila or something like that.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I, you have to do it very carefully.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: I know you guys do, but it has to be quite a challenge.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
14:20
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like two questions, right?
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Like one thing is what's going on in Mexico and what are the issues there?
14:27
SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing is like how we approach and try to like work our way around it.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: And obviously in Mexico,
14:35
SPEAKER_01: I think lots of people saw what went wrong with tequila and why it went a certain
14:41
SPEAKER_01: way and like why like
14:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if additives are allowed and like that amount of additives is allowed as well.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: Like 1% is crazy.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: And why like suddenly like they're pretty much only big brands and what happened to
14:54
SPEAKER_01: all the small producers and there's monoculture and agave is either too much agave
14:59
SPEAKER_01: or like too much agave or not enough agave and agaves are sick.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all these issues, obviously, that we have in Jalisco and the other tequila producing states.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I think to a certain extent,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: as you said,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: you can definitely see it in Oaxaca as well,
15:12
SPEAKER_01: that like there's lots of monoculture when it comes to Espadin,
15:15
SPEAKER_01: but you basically can't find any Tubala anymore.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: You can't find any Araucanio currently.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: Also like unripe agave is getting harvested and like obviously lots of bigger
15:26
SPEAKER_01: brands pushing into the market or lots of like brands with like fresh money pushing
15:31
SPEAKER_01: into the market.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: producing in very different ways or even worse like exploiting like the small
15:39
SPEAKER_01: producers and like don't pay them properly or don't give them any type of like
15:43
SPEAKER_01: ownership like just exploiting them obviously on the other hand you have lots of
15:49
SPEAKER_01: other states as well where
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Still, it's more or less intact and not as broken.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And you have lots of small producers over there who pretty much still do what they
16:00
SPEAKER_01: did 150 years ago and produce for their friends and family and are pretty much
16:05
SPEAKER_01: untouched from any industrial products and brands.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: How we approach it ourselves is that we...
16:13
SPEAKER_01: What is really important for us is transparency.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: So with any brand that we stock,
16:19
SPEAKER_01: with any mezcal that we work with,
16:21
SPEAKER_01: with any batches that we buy for us,
16:23
SPEAKER_01: what is really important is that we know as much as possible about it,
16:28
SPEAKER_01: but especially that we know about the producer.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: So I think there are some quite well respected brands out there as well.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: And then you ask who like actually produced it and they either can't tell you or don't want to tell you.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And like the liquid might be quite good.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: It's like maybe like a good mezcal.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: But like,
16:46
SPEAKER_01: I think for me,
16:47
SPEAKER_01: the most important thing is actually the person behind who produced the mezcal and
16:52
SPEAKER_01: like their story and
16:54
SPEAKER_01: how they got into it and what they're doing.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's like the really, really fascinating part about Mezcal as well.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like this like personal connection of the Mezcalero and the agave and the
17:05
SPEAKER_01: spirit that comes out in the end.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: It's not just about like a tasty product.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: I think there's so much more and so much more passion and knowledge and tradition behind it.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: So basically what we're trying to do is to know as much as possible about the spirit.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: We know that we know the producer,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: that we know what they're doing,
17:22
SPEAKER_01: that we know how it has been produced,
17:24
SPEAKER_01: where the agave comes from,
17:26
SPEAKER_01: the varieties of the agave,
17:27
SPEAKER_01: why they do what they do.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: And then obviously as well that it's a tasty product.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: I think it's sometimes very difficult to say, especially for like us.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're sitting here in London and I'd say, oh, that's a good mezcal and that's not a good mezcal.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: There are mezcal that I like better and that I like maybe not as much.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: But if it like...
17:51
SPEAKER_01: like follow certain criteria and certain like ground rules that we set for
17:55
SPEAKER_01: ourselves and like terms of like ABV and like transparency and just but like just
17:59
SPEAKER_01: like telling a story.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: If you like even like normally we say the mescal is like below like 44 percent or so.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: There's probably something like a little bit wrong with it.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: But that's more like because sometimes it's really difficult to actually understand what's going on.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: If you give me a coherent story, why this mescalero
18:18
SPEAKER_01: trying to do these and these things for these and these reasons.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: And that's why the agave spirit that he produces is low ABV.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I say, okay, that makes sense to me now.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Um,
18:28
SPEAKER_01: so like basically what we're trying to find is just like as much transparency as
18:32
SPEAKER_01: possible and as much connection to the producer as possible,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: which then led us over the last years or what we learned is that it's actually
18:40
SPEAKER_01: getting more and more complicated.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Um,
18:44
SPEAKER_01: maybe because our standards that we set for ourselves over the last years, they changed a bit as well.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: We were always quite strict,
18:51
SPEAKER_01: but obviously,
18:53
SPEAKER_01: definitely stricter now than we used to be three and a half years ago when we first opened.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: With then figuring out for ourselves that obviously there are some brands that are producer-owned,
19:03
SPEAKER_01: like brands like La Locura,
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Ray Minero,
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Ray Campero,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Ray Estapoteco,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: but these are pretty much the only four producer-owned brands available in the U.K.,
19:13
SPEAKER_01: And available for us.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: So then there are other ones that you find in Mexico,
19:16
SPEAKER_01: but you have to import it yourself,
19:19
SPEAKER_01: which you can do to a certain extent.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: But obviously, that's like much more tricky.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: And then we said, OK, let's like that was one of the reasons why we decided to import our own spirits.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: And basically we buy small batches from small producers and then release them under our own brands.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: under the under the coal brand and like have like we always had it from the
19:40
SPEAKER_01: beginning and now we focus focus on it even even more than before and we just
19:45
SPEAKER_01: launched six new ones in um what was it middle of april i think um we're basically
19:51
SPEAKER_01: working with a partner who's in mexico travels around and helps us sourcing those
19:55
SPEAKER_01: batches
19:57
SPEAKER_01: and then um meeting him uh tasting them deciding on what is good like really
20:02
SPEAKER_01: showcase trying to showcase as well like as much diversity as possible as many
20:07
SPEAKER_01: different agaves and many different states as possible and like a bit like
20:12
SPEAKER_01: like the real mezcal in a way.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: So not only like what sells well,
20:18
SPEAKER_01: like not only like,
20:18
SPEAKER_01: oh,
20:19
SPEAKER_01: we have an Espadin from Oaxaca that is like big body and smoky,
20:23
SPEAKER_01: but like everyone expects,
20:24
SPEAKER_01: but also like the other side and like other flavors of agave spirits.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: And like we different,
20:28
SPEAKER_01: a bit like a different topic and a much bigger topic again,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: but like we basically moved away quite a bit from single variety agave spirits
20:36
SPEAKER_01: because I don't really believe that that's like the,
20:41
SPEAKER_01: the traditional and real way of producing mezcal.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: That's much more like for us,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: as with the Western drinking culture,
20:49
SPEAKER_01: it sounds really fascinating,
20:50
SPEAKER_01: how like a single variety mezcal
20:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's what you're looking for, right?
20:54
SPEAKER_01: So you can really taste the flavor of this one agave.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: But much more normal and much more natural is that the mescalero goes out and
21:03
SPEAKER_01: harvests the agaves that grow together,
21:05
SPEAKER_01: that are ripe at the same time,
21:07
SPEAKER_01: and then makes a distillate for his friends and his families,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: and they share it together.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's much more the true flavor of mescal,
21:16
SPEAKER_01: and much more the true flavor of this moment or this season,
21:20
SPEAKER_01: and trying to focus much more on that.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
21:24
SPEAKER_01: so basically,
21:27
SPEAKER_01: gathered and collected our own batches,
21:30
SPEAKER_01: maybe it was really important for us to like showcase diversity,
21:32
SPEAKER_01: transparency,
21:33
SPEAKER_01: and much also like a story between all them.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So like,
21:37
SPEAKER_01: if you have like a mascot flight,
21:38
SPEAKER_01: it does really make sense and gives try to give you like a full picture.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: And then the third one,
21:45
SPEAKER_01: the third mezcal that we are getting besides the other two that I mentioned,
21:51
SPEAKER_01: so besides producer-owned mezcals and our own ones,
21:56
SPEAKER_01: from brands that we have really strong connections to,
21:59
SPEAKER_01: that we know really well,
22:01
SPEAKER_01: where we know that we trust,
22:03
SPEAKER_01: like brands like Netta,
22:04
SPEAKER_01: for example,
22:06
SPEAKER_01: brands like Palalma that go out and buy from small producers,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: they buy small batches.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: that are really, really well sourced and that can really tell the story of the people behind it.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: it definitely got the higher your standard,
22:21
SPEAKER_01: the more difficult it gets,
22:23
SPEAKER_01: especially if you're quite far away from Mexico and limits the amount of mescal and
22:29
SPEAKER_01: agave spirits that you're working with.
22:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Matias, I was going to ask you about that.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: How often do you travel to Mexico?
22:36
SPEAKER_03: I bet it's not easy because you're in charge of the bar.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: But at some point,
22:42
SPEAKER_03: it seems that even if you trust your partners and the people that are gathering
22:48
SPEAKER_03: information for you and,
22:50
SPEAKER_03: you know,
22:50
SPEAKER_03: about the producers,
22:51
SPEAKER_03: the stories,
22:52
SPEAKER_03: obviously the mezcal,
22:55
SPEAKER_03: it looks like you and having to interview them to get the story of that other, you know, the producer.
23:03
SPEAKER_03: So how do you go about that?
23:05
SPEAKER_03: And if it's in the end flavor or, you know, the trust in your own senses and general sense of it,
23:13
SPEAKER_03: what makes you to trust the whole thing,
23:15
SPEAKER_03: because there are a lot of people involved,
23:17
SPEAKER_03: even if you trust them,
23:19
SPEAKER_03: right?
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: So we try to go to Mexico like twice a year, I think, plus minus.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: But I think that's what we're trying to achieve,
23:29
SPEAKER_01: just to be present and meet some people as well and see what's actually going on as
23:35
SPEAKER_01: well and try to go maybe also a bit off the beaten track and go in different areas
23:40
SPEAKER_01: where not everyone travels to.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And then in terms of how to build the trust and who to work with,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a lot about human connections and trying to like,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: like now we're like doing this since like quite a while.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: So we're doing it since three and a half years, maybe with like pre-preparation, like four years.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: So we have a decent amount of time
24:04
SPEAKER_01: to meet people and get like really like build this like Agava community in London
24:11
SPEAKER_01: and like get to know who is involved and who is doing what and how are they talking
24:16
SPEAKER_01: about it?
24:17
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, obviously, you have a couple of times you think, oh, these guys are doing really well.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: And then after two years,
24:23
SPEAKER_01: you think maybe it's actually a bit like questionable and like maybe not as great
24:27
SPEAKER_01: as I thought in the beginning.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so you're spending a lot of time together.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think London actually has a great, it's a quite small one, but it has an amazing agave community.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: There are quite a few brands,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: which like,
24:42
SPEAKER_01: I think it's always like really fascinating and really surprising.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Quite a few brands based in London or whether the owners are based in London or the
24:49
SPEAKER_01: people behind it are based in London.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Some are better,
24:53
SPEAKER_01: some are worse,
24:54
SPEAKER_01: but it's all just like really interesting because it's built this community of all
24:57
SPEAKER_01: like people who care about agave spirits and care about like the true meaning of it.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, then it's just basically like, I mean, like what you do as a bartender, right?
25:08
SPEAKER_01: You like meet people and try to read them and like sometimes it works out and sometimes not.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: But I think like in general, you're like, as a bartender, you're meeting a lot of people.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: So you're definitely quite well equipped to,
25:18
SPEAKER_01: to help you reading them and try to understand what they're actually doing.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: You have that skill.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't work every time.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: I can't promise that.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: But I think by now we made ourselves quite a good name and we made a lot of
25:34
SPEAKER_01: connections and we met a lot of people.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: I think also, I mean, we tasted a lot of liquid.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: and i think in most cases you can tell already from just like someone like sent you
25:48
SPEAKER_01: an email and you click on the website you already have a strong feeling of like is
25:53
SPEAKER_01: this going to be something good is it something not good and then obviously you
25:57
SPEAKER_01: have like these days
25:59
SPEAKER_01: you have quite like a strong like internet network when it comes to Agava Spirits as well, right?
26:03
SPEAKER_01: You can like look on like Mescal reviews or like,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: some like forums or whatever and see like who else,
26:11
SPEAKER_01: did someone talk about it already?
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And like,
26:13
SPEAKER_01: maybe like,
26:13
SPEAKER_01: it's like the brand is available in the US or some,
26:16
SPEAKER_01: or which other Mescal heroes they're working with,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: who else are they working with?
26:19
SPEAKER_01: And so on, like,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: where the village is and you kind of like know, you know, the places, right.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, what's, what's going on.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: And then you can connect the dots.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think without any guarantee,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: but I think we got quite good at like finding out what's actually really happening
26:33
SPEAKER_01: and if this brand is worth it or not,
26:35
SPEAKER_01: or if it's true,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: but they're trying to sell us here right now.
26:38
SPEAKER_03: And why is,
26:40
SPEAKER_03: um,
26:40
SPEAKER_03: because I mean,
26:42
SPEAKER_03: as I don't drink much,
26:43
SPEAKER_03: but mezcal is something that is really,
26:46
SPEAKER_03: it's really special.
26:47
SPEAKER_03: It's my favorite drink.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: And,
26:50
SPEAKER_03: Why so special?
26:51
SPEAKER_03: Are we exoticizing this?
26:54
SPEAKER_03: Is the smokiness, is the story behind it?
26:57
SPEAKER_03: Because it feels,
26:59
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
26:59
SPEAKER_03: apart from being around spirit,
27:01
SPEAKER_03: it feels like it has this medicinal effect in your body.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: It's really unique in those terms.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: So how would you describe it?
27:12
SPEAKER_03: And why do you think, apart from the trend, so many people are, I don't know, just having this...
27:21
SPEAKER_01: unique experience with mezcal i think i mean it's a very natural product so really
27:30
SPEAKER_01: well made mezcal and a traditionally made mezcal right you have like this it's
27:36
SPEAKER_01: pretty much just it's just the agave and water and nothing else there's no yeast
27:40
SPEAKER_01: added there's no like additives added there's like
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Even the water that you're using is basically just during the fermentation and not even afterwards.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's a very natural product.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: So there's no weird stuff that makes you feel bad or makes you feel like a weird
27:59
SPEAKER_01: headache or hangover or whatever after.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think at the same time, what is so what makes definitely a difference.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: So if you sit down with a friend and you have like a bottle of,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: scotch on the table,
28:12
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm going to have like two glasses.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: And then I probably go to drink something else.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Just like,
28:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
28:19
SPEAKER_01: I just,
28:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm going to feel like drinking half a bottle of scotch by myself or
28:23
SPEAKER_01: with a friend.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: While if you have a bottle of mescal on the table, it's definitely a different drinking experience.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: And for whatever reason,
28:30
SPEAKER_01: and I can't give you the scientific reason behind it,
28:32
SPEAKER_01: it's just,
28:32
SPEAKER_01: but it's very,
28:33
SPEAKER_01: very,
28:34
SPEAKER_01: it's quite easy to drink like a second,
28:36
SPEAKER_01: a third and a fourth glass of mescal,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: which makes it so amazing as well.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: I think like mescal is like, it's like a true, like,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: community and community spirit that it needs to be shared i think there's not
28:49
SPEAKER_01: really a point in like if you get like a special bottle of mescal that like i only
28:54
SPEAKER_01: get one bottle i mean like i'm not going to keep it on the shelf forever let's open
28:58
SPEAKER_01: it and give it like to people who appreciate it i don't give it to like everyone
29:01
SPEAKER_01: everyone or if you come in and like then if you like order like i'm not going to
29:05
SPEAKER_01: serve you like if i only have one bottle of it and it's truly special
29:09
SPEAKER_01: I give you like, and here it's like single shots.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's like basically an ounce.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: We're going to give you an ounce.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to give you half the bottle to drink by yourself because I want to
29:16
SPEAKER_01: share it with other people as well.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: But it's like, you want to share it.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: You want to like share this like special experience,
29:22
SPEAKER_01: a special bottle,
29:22
SPEAKER_01: a special flavor with as many people as possible.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's like, yes, I think it's just like the flavor is really interesting.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: But I think what really makes the big difference is like the story behind it.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: And there is a true story behind every single mezcal and every single agave product
29:42
SPEAKER_01: and every single mezcalero.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: There's like...
29:45
SPEAKER_01: it's not like a mass produced product where like,
29:47
SPEAKER_01: okay,
29:47
SPEAKER_01: it's like this gin and we're getting Zunipa from,
29:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Slovenia and we're getting lemon from Sicily and like,
29:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:53
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
29:53
SPEAKER_01: whatever.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, and you're using natural grain spirit and redistill it.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I mean, that's like a really unromantic story.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's actually a real product made by real people to share with your friends.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: And it's every,
30:06
SPEAKER_01: every year is different and every batch is different and you have like insane differences.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: And like, it's still like pretty much impossible to understand how,
30:13
SPEAKER_01: where those differences come from but that makes it even more fascinating and
30:17
SPEAKER_00: amazing and delicious in the end for the the six bottles you guys collabed on with
30:24
SPEAKER_00: sin gusano right correct yes
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Tell me about Singosano.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: What exactly is that project?
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Who started it?
30:33
SPEAKER_00: What exactly are they doing?
30:34
SPEAKER_01: So Singosano is a brand that's owned by John Darby.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: He is based in London.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: And I think he got into Agave Spirits a bit earlier than us,
30:46
SPEAKER_01: but is in a way very much aligned with what we do.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: And has probably a similar, in terms of how his...
30:54
SPEAKER_01: how much he learned about it and how he sees it.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I think his path was very, very similar to ours.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Also how it developed over the last three or four years.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: He actually just got married in Oaxaca to a woman from Oaxaca.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: I think it just showcases how much he connected with the country.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: He spends probably like 80% of his year
31:21
SPEAKER_01: in Oaxaca and he basically he built a brand I think like five six years ago he
31:26
SPEAKER_01: started that he he was in Mexico and like he got into mezcal and then he bought
31:32
SPEAKER_01: like small batches like I think like quite like similar to a lot of other people do
31:35
SPEAKER_01: it as well right like buys like small batches bring them back home set up with
31:39
SPEAKER_01: friends and like they say like man that's like mind-blowing stuff
31:42
SPEAKER_01: And then he thought, okay, I actually don't want to do what I'm doing here right now.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to give up my career.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: I want to do something different.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I want to highlight those people.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: And then he built a brand called Singusano.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: In the beginning,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: it was focused on Oaxaca,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: but they always kind of focused on communities that are not that well explored,
32:02
SPEAKER_01: that are not that well known.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: And bought like 20 liters, 30 liters, took it back home.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: And then he started like a mezcal subscription service.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: So he basically could sign up on his website.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: You get bottles.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: And then every two months, you get like two new releases sent to your house.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: But I think what made it really special is that you got like a ton of information.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: And if I say it's a ton of information, it's like the amount of information is insane.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: You get like literally like a...
32:26
SPEAKER_01: three a four pages or something of like information about like who is the producer
32:31
SPEAKER_01: what are what are his children doing what is his grandma doing uh it was a cow
32:36
SPEAKER_01: walking past the fermentation bed while i was there he's like he's spending real
32:41
SPEAKER_01: like days with them and like exploring what they're doing and going harvesting with
32:46
SPEAKER_01: them going and doing fermentation going doing the distillation and like really
32:49
SPEAKER_01: exploring what these guys are doing
32:52
SPEAKER_01: and then takes a lot of pictures and really shares those stories.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: And over the last years, he focused much more on states outside of Oaxaca as well.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: So he went a lot to Puebla, but then he recently went a lot to Durango and San Luis Potosi.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I think he was in Michoacán as well,
33:09
SPEAKER_01: which is quite great because in the UK,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: it's quite difficult to find lots of agave spirits from Durango or Michoacán and so on.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: And, yeah, so we have, like, quite a longstanding relationship since we opened.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: We always worked a lot with him.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: So we, like, every time he has, like, a new release, he sent it to us for us to try.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Every time he was in Mexico, he got, like, lots of samples, come over and shared those stories.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: And then like going back to like the earlier question,
33:36
SPEAKER_01: that's like how we build a trust as well,
33:38
SPEAKER_01: because we saw,
33:39
SPEAKER_01: okay,
33:39
SPEAKER_01: he really values what we are valuing.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: And he is like really connect, trying to connect as much as possible with those people.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: And like, not just going there and buying as much as possible from them by buying like
33:51
SPEAKER_01: what is right for them to sell to him so like if they I don't know they make 70
33:55
SPEAKER_01: liters and they say I want to keep like 30 liters for my family and friends and he
33:59
SPEAKER_01: said okay then buy 40 liters or if they say I don't want to I can't sell this one
34:04
SPEAKER_01: but maybe the next one then he like comes again and see like what's happening then
34:09
SPEAKER_01: but I think like the way how he communicates it and the way how he shares it is
34:12
SPEAKER_01: like the really
34:15
SPEAKER_01: the point that sets them apart from lots of other brands because it's not just it's
34:18
SPEAKER_01: on the label as well,
34:19
SPEAKER_01: but it's also like you go to his website and you find an insane amount of
34:22
SPEAKER_01: information and really in-depth analysis of what's going on in this particular
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Palenque and why this still is different to the still in the next village and what
34:34
SPEAKER_01: are specialties about this specific agave and how it's different to the same
34:40
SPEAKER_01: the same variety, but in a different state or in a different area of the state.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And now I lost track of what you actually asked,
34:47
SPEAKER_01: but I think it was about what is Singusano and what they're doing.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: So basically... About Singusano.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how we connected.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: And then it was,
34:57
SPEAKER_01: I think,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: pretty clear for us that when we want to release the next batch of mezcal,
35:03
SPEAKER_01: we want to do it together with John,
35:05
SPEAKER_01: just because he was like...
35:07
SPEAKER_01: our strongest partner in that sense in sense of like that what he's doing is very
35:12
SPEAKER_01: close to what we are doing yeah and that's that's a story and like he's still doing
35:16
SPEAKER_01: this mezcal subscription service mostly um but now he's also supplying the cold
35:22
SPEAKER_01: house mezcals and um i think for both of us it's like it's a really great
35:27
SPEAKER_01: opportunity because obviously because i don't have the chance to spend 80 percent
35:30
SPEAKER_01: of my year in mexico and source mezcals
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Um,
35:33
SPEAKER_01: so it was,
35:34
SPEAKER_01: it was really important to find a partner that we trust and a partner that,
35:37
SPEAKER_01: that has the same values and that we found in him.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And, um, yeah, the same time for him as well.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: It's probably not the worst to be in a restaurant like Kohl,
35:47
SPEAKER_01: in a Kohl mascarilla and,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: uh,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: has like a bit like a different audience as well.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: And just like share shared with as many people as possible.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: So I, I imagine when you guys decided to make a partnership,
36:00
SPEAKER_00: you know to to collab on this he probably brought you tons of different mezcals to
36:07
SPEAKER_00: do like to try like how did you kind of settle on these six and then and also are
36:15
SPEAKER_00: these like just for the mezcal area just for coal or are they going to be sold
36:20
SPEAKER_00: commercially as well
36:23
SPEAKER_01: They're going to be for the moment just in Kohl and the Mascalaria.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: So we had requests to have them like available in retail as well or like in other wholesalers.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: But we decided that we just want to have it as an exclusive thing for Kohl.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: You can come to Kohl and you can buy a bottle as well.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: But we decided to not want to have them in other stores and shops, maybe like later down the road.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: But for the time being, we want to keep it like as an exclusive thing just for us.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he basically came when we met like around like a year ago, first time.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: and yeah he came in with like i don't know 60 samples 70 samples from like all the
37:11
SPEAKER_01: different states all the different regions and then we um tasted them together and
37:17
SPEAKER_01: i like i mean they were like again like right they're like some that i like more
37:21
SPEAKER_01: and some that i like less
37:23
SPEAKER_01: But they were all like true mezcal based on what we think mezcal should represent
37:29
SPEAKER_01: and like truly like delicious liquid.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And then we basically from like writing down flavor profiles to like looking at
37:36
SPEAKER_01: like where are those located and how we would be able to also connect those in.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: in like a mezcal pairing or a mezcal flight,
37:46
SPEAKER_01: and at the same time trying to showcase as many states as possible,
37:51
SPEAKER_01: as many different production methods as possible.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: And like, yeah, just like how to create
37:59
SPEAKER_01: the i mean obviously it's only the six mescal so you have to be like you can't
38:03
SPEAKER_01: showcase everything but like a small but really well curated selection as good as
38:10
SPEAKER_01: possible and um basically what we ended up with having is um so we have a salmiana
38:16
SPEAKER_01: from san luis potosi
38:18
SPEAKER_01: which was kind of like quite important for us because we used a lot of salmonella
38:25
SPEAKER_01: from San Luis Potosi before.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: I think it's an amazing mezcal,
38:28
SPEAKER_01: it's an amazing agave to start your mezcal journey with because it's quite
38:32
SPEAKER_01: surprising for most guests.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: It's really, really different to what you would expect.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: So if you do like mezcal flights, we're using those a lot.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: I think it pairs amazingly with food as well.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: It's great in cocktails.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: in like quite like a specific special agave and state as well.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: And like you can straight away dive into this discussion about like what's tequila,
38:53
SPEAKER_01: what's mezcal and what are the differences as well.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: I think there's like really strong connection.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: Then we have one from Jalisco, which is an Ensemble out of three agaves.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And again, with the background of like, okay, we can have this discussion about tequila and mezcal.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: It's super floral.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: It's quite a bit like vegetable as well.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: And just like really, really different to the other one.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: And then we have we have we have we have we have an ensemble from San Luis Amatlan
39:29
SPEAKER_01: that actually the producer is called Nicolas Gutierrez.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: It's probably John's favorite producer of all time.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: where he buys lots of batches from.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think what's quite special about that one is that Saint-Louis-et-Maitland,
39:46
SPEAKER_01: for me,
39:46
SPEAKER_01: is quite like a special village because there's really special flavor and sense of terroir.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't really matter the type of agave they use.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't really matter who in the village produced it,
40:00
SPEAKER_01: but all the mescals always taste quite similarly.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: So they have like really like strong sense of terroir,
40:10
SPEAKER_01: which we thought is like super,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: super interesting.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's like a really full body rich, super funky mezcal.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: So extremely different to the first two are much more on the lighter floral citrusy side.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: Then we have two mezcals,
40:24
SPEAKER_01: who are actually from the same producer,
40:26
SPEAKER_01: from the same village,
40:27
SPEAKER_01: made in the same way from Puebla,
40:29
SPEAKER_01: right at the border to Oaxaca.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: It's two times pizzeria, so it's agave marmorata, which in Oaxaca would be called probably tapestata.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And what we try to do with those is that we basically have it's the same.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Everything is the same besides the time of harvest.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: So one is harvested in April and one is harvested in August.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So you have one time a dry season and one time wet season with the idea to showcase the differences
40:56
SPEAKER_01: in between those two seasons and what like how water content and season make
41:03
SPEAKER_01: influences flavor and I think it's super interesting because first not many other
41:08
SPEAKER_01: people probably not not many people have ever tasted something like that and not
41:12
SPEAKER_01: many other brands ever did something like that and it's just like super difficult
41:16
SPEAKER_01: to find in general and then as well it was like it's quite like a lactic
41:21
SPEAKER_01: lactic mescal both of them just like they're quite similar but also really
41:26
SPEAKER_01: different again like with like a really different flavor profile to the other three
41:32
SPEAKER_01: that was actually the only single variety truly single variety mescals that we had
41:39
SPEAKER_01: in our range and then the last one is from Chichicapan in Oaxaca so quite like
41:45
SPEAKER_01: well-known village really like well-established obviously like
41:49
SPEAKER_01: Denmark A has quite a well-known mezcal coming from there.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So lots of people in the mezcal world know the village.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: But it's quite a very, very different mezcal that we have from there.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: And I said it before a few times that I...
42:05
SPEAKER_01: When we did the first tasting, we would have never stocked three and a half years ago.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: If you would have given it to me three and a half years ago,
42:11
SPEAKER_01: I would have said,
42:11
SPEAKER_01: oh,
42:11
SPEAKER_01: that's super gimmicky.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: That's not true mezcal.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: Why would you sell it?
42:16
SPEAKER_01: That's just destroying what mezcal is and blah, blah, blah.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: And so basically what it is, is they call it a field blend.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: So they're using pretty much whatever agave they have left.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: distill it and then do it then they do a second distillation and adding lemongrass
42:33
SPEAKER_01: to it on the one side as if you like agave mezcal purist you say like first like
42:39
SPEAKER_01: that's not true mezcal but on the other side it's what's truly happening in mexico
42:45
SPEAKER_01: it's what's truly happening what's like truly has been done by this mezcalero so
42:49
SPEAKER_01: who who am i to say oh that's not mezcal
42:52
SPEAKER_01: And it has been done by their family since generations already.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: And second, it's super delicious.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: And third, again, we can start this discussion about what is Mezcal actually.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: And yes, you can't call it Mezcal.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't be able to certify it as Mezcal.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: I still think it's valid to call it Mezcal.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And then you can have a discussion again and talk about certification processes and
43:19
SPEAKER_01: what is Mezcal and what is not Mezcal and why some producers stay away from it and
43:24
SPEAKER_01: so on.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: And have, again, a super different flavor profile as well.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: And the lemongrass is so well integrated into it.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: So you really get like this agave backbone and the agave structure and body.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: But then the lemongrass gives like a bit like a kick and like the freshness to it,
43:42
SPEAKER_01: which I never had anywhere else before.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: And so like,
43:46
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
43:46
SPEAKER_01: so when we basically when we collect,
43:48
SPEAKER_01: when we when we selected them,
43:50
SPEAKER_01: the idea was to really have like lots of stories behind it,
43:54
SPEAKER_01: try to showcase like lots of different styles.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: um and yeah be able to put as much information as possible into six different
44:02
SPEAKER_01: mezcals and give you like like a really strong overview over the whole category
44:06
SPEAKER_03: yeah is this um ongoing question about the boundaries between tradition and
44:12
SPEAKER_03: innovation right that's what you're facing when yeah when asking those questions
44:16
SPEAKER_03: and having those debates which are pretty
44:19
SPEAKER_03: Interesting anyway.
44:21
SPEAKER_03: But so do you, in which other countries mezcal is being made right now?
44:27
SPEAKER_03: You mentioned South Africa.
44:29
SPEAKER_03: And do you notice a difference with the ones made in Mexico?
44:34
SPEAKER_03: How do you go about those other ones?
44:36
SPEAKER_03: How common it is?
44:37
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we mentioned before South Africa has a couple of agave brands.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: I had one from India as well.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: I recently was in Australia and got a bottle from there as well.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: I think... Wait, then I had one from... I think I had agave... Are they allowed to be called mezcal?
44:58
SPEAKER_01: No, that's agave spirits.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: I think I had one from... Agave spirits.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: from Ecuador.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: I heard about one from Peru, but I haven't tried it yet.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: There's one from Peru.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty good.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Agave de los Andes.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: I've, I've had it.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: I heard about that.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: It's nice.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: So there are quite a few that are great and there are quite a few that are not so great.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: Um,
45:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that most of them are probably usually based on agave americana or Blue
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Weber agave just because they're like easier to like plant and are just healthier
45:33
SPEAKER_01: and like a bit more like easier to like survive in different climates and different
45:37
SPEAKER_01: regions as well.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: I have to say, um, the, for example, the one we had from Australia was super interesting.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And like,
45:46
SPEAKER_01: so they're basically,
45:47
SPEAKER_01: I only,
45:48
SPEAKER_01: I haven't tried like all of their variations,
45:50
SPEAKER_01: but they made a Petruga.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: with kangaroo which I thought was quite funny in a way because it was like in the
45:57
SPEAKER_01: end like a true expressions expression of like what mescal or agave spirit would
46:02
SPEAKER_01: look like in Australia so they have um it was actually it wasn't based on Americana
46:08
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't based it was based on Espadin but it was quite interesting because
46:11
SPEAKER_01: Espadin looks a bit like Kavinsky so it's much uh much narrower and longer
46:17
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
46:18
SPEAKER_01: they made a petuga out of it with kangaroo and like it was like much less fresh as
46:23
SPEAKER_01: petugas you would get from Oaxaca.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: So like much they probably put like much, much less like orange and like citrus fruits in it.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: But you had like crazy complexity and really good body.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: And it was it was a it was a good mezcal.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like my favorite mezcal of all time, but it was definitely like up there.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: It was it was a great mezcal.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: At the same time,
46:40
SPEAKER_01: we had one from South Africa,
46:42
SPEAKER_01: which I think was really,
46:44
SPEAKER_01: really good as well and really interesting.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: And,
46:47
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
46:47
SPEAKER_01: what we're trying to do,
46:48
SPEAKER_01: like,
46:50
SPEAKER_01: is that we're trying to showcase those spirits as well because I think it's
46:54
SPEAKER_01: definitely a way into the future of agave spirits.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: I think we all know that,
47:00
SPEAKER_01: especially what we said earlier,
47:01
SPEAKER_01: like,
47:02
SPEAKER_01: it's getting quite difficult with,
47:04
SPEAKER_01: like,
47:05
SPEAKER_01: monoculture and the just,
47:08
SPEAKER_01: like...
47:09
SPEAKER_01: quantity of agave available as well.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: And obviously,
47:11
SPEAKER_01: there are a lot of other states in Mexico where you can get agaves and where you
47:15
SPEAKER_01: can make agave spirits.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I think it's really interesting to see what's happening in other countries.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: just because we're called a mescaleria,
47:25
SPEAKER_01: I see it much more mescal as not the definition by history and not definition by
47:33
SPEAKER_01: legal and by law.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: And by history, it was like, okay, it was a distillate of agave and that was called mescal.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's super interesting to see what's happening in other states and
47:46
SPEAKER_01: what's happening in other countries.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: And if it's made well, there's definitely...
47:51
SPEAKER_01: there's definitely a reason and a place for it.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: And then I also like to showcase it and like,
47:56
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a lot about like,
47:57
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
47:57
SPEAKER_01: just like fueling this discussion and like talking about it and showcasing it.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: And like this,
48:03
SPEAKER_01: there's so much more still to,
48:05
SPEAKER_01: to learn,
48:05
SPEAKER_01: but also so much to explore and so much for Agave to go into.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: So we want to, we want to be part of this progress.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: But before we,
48:15
SPEAKER_00: before we go,
48:16
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to make sure I asked you about this because in,
48:20
SPEAKER_00: I know Cole,
48:21
SPEAKER_00: like I had Santiago on like a year or two ago.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but, um,
48:26
SPEAKER_00: But there's a kind of strict policy of only importing,
48:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:31
SPEAKER_00: just a few ingredients like corn,
48:34
SPEAKER_00: chilies and what else,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: like chocolate or something.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: Does that policy apply to the bar, to the mezcaleria as well?
48:42
SPEAKER_01: It does.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, not when it comes to spirits.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: Then it would be quite a sad mescal area if you would only have mescals from the UK
48:50
SPEAKER_01: because we wouldn't have any.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: Even though you find you have a bit of agaves growing in England, not much.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: But if you go to the coast, for example, in England,
49:01
SPEAKER_01: I just saw like last year was for a week or two in Cornville.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's like a 40 year old agave americana growing there.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: It's incredible.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: And just the other day,
49:13
SPEAKER_01: one of my bartenders sent me a picture of like somewhere here in East London was
49:17
SPEAKER_01: like a massive agave.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: It was like basically blooming right now, like a massive Kyoto, which was incredible.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, obviously, you don't have the quantity.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: Probably like the botanical garden or something.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: You're just going to have to sneak in at night.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, there's a story of Kew Gardens.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: It's quite a big botanical garden.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: And they used to...
49:40
SPEAKER_01: I think it was actually Ivan Saldana from Montelobos.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: He was studying in the UK and then I might be wrong, but he definitely planted some agaves.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if he was the one who planted them in Kew Gardens,
49:52
SPEAKER_01: but I think he definitely planted some agaves in the UK in some botanical gardens.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: But there is an agave in Kew Gardens and a few years ago because they didn't really
50:03
SPEAKER_01: know what agaves are doing.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: The agave was then like growing the Kyoto and the Kyoto grew like by like half a meter a day.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: And basically suddenly overnight it went through the roof and destroyed the glass.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: And the workers came in in the morning and there was a hole in the hole in the roof.
50:18
SPEAKER_01: It was a hole in the ceiling and the agave had shot through and the Kyoto shot through.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
50:24
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
50:26
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
50:26
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't like our rules apply in the mescal area as well,
50:29
SPEAKER_01: but it doesn't apply for agave spirits.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: But yes, everything else that we're using
50:34
SPEAKER_01: we are getting from the UK.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: So all the fresh ingredients coming from the UK.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: So we don't use lime.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: We don't use lemon.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: We don't use grapefruit.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: We don't use avocados or any tropical fruits.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: So we're mixing British ingredients with Mexican spirit and trying to like
50:52
SPEAKER_01: replicate flavors based on with like different techniques.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: And just showcase spirits and showcase Mexican culture in that way.
51:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
51:01
SPEAKER_03: no,
51:01
SPEAKER_03: I was going to ask Matias about that,
51:04
SPEAKER_03: the way of mixing mezcal or agave spirits with local ingredients,
51:10
SPEAKER_03: right?
51:11
SPEAKER_03: And,
51:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
51:12
SPEAKER_03: we could spend months here of you teaching us in every case what to do and what not
51:18
SPEAKER_03: to do,
51:19
SPEAKER_03: but I'm just very curious about how do you decide what works,
51:25
SPEAKER_03: what doesn't work,
51:26
SPEAKER_03: if you have a few rules for that,
51:28
SPEAKER_03: because...
51:29
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it's a very different or is not a different terrarium environment.
51:36
SPEAKER_03: So if you can tell us a bit about that.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: You know,
51:40
SPEAKER_01: I first think that similar to if you like spirits, I think there is a mezcal for you as well.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: I think if you have ingredients and you know how to extract their flavor,
51:52
SPEAKER_01: you can find a mezcal that works with them because the world of mezcal and the
51:56
SPEAKER_01: world of agave spirits is so diverse that you get like we said from big flavor,
52:02
SPEAKER_01: full on smoky rich.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: to quite elegant citrusy to like maybe spicy herbaceous you have like lots of
52:08
SPEAKER_01: different flavor profiles that you can work with in the world of agave already and
52:13
SPEAKER_01: then in the world of british ingredients we have you obviously have a lot of like
52:20
SPEAKER_01: things like apples and pears but then you all we have a lot of wild ingredients as
52:24
SPEAKER_01: well we have a lot of flowers and there might be a bit more difficult to extract
52:29
SPEAKER_01: the flavor
52:31
SPEAKER_01: But as soon as you learn a little bit how to do that, it can get really, really interesting.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
52:38
SPEAKER_01: there are lots of ingredients that can taste quite tropical if you modify them a
52:43
SPEAKER_01: little bit.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: If you use them maybe unripe or if you use them overripe or if you kill or ferment
52:50
SPEAKER_01: them or blend all the three together and then get basically,
52:55
SPEAKER_01: for example,
52:56
SPEAKER_01: out of squash,
52:57
SPEAKER_01: a very,
52:57
SPEAKER_01: very different,
52:58
SPEAKER_01: almost like mango-esque flavor profile.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: but it's basically just unripe squash and pickled squash and things like that.
53:08
SPEAKER_01: Obviously it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of research.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: And I really believe that basically what we're doing at Kohl's and also what we're
53:15
SPEAKER_01: doing in the mescaleria will get better and better with every year,
53:18
SPEAKER_01: just because we learn much more about it.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: And like quite often seasonality is like super, super short.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: So you get something in and until you have like experimented and tried it out,
53:27
SPEAKER_01: like basically you can't get the ingredient anymore.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: But then you document it and next year, you know, and it's like, great, amazing.
53:33
SPEAKER_01: We have these two weeks in April.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: And this is like the ingredient pineapple weed.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: Like pineapple weed we get in, in like June.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: And seasonality is quite short.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: But we know if you extract it this and this way,
53:45
SPEAKER_01: we can use it as like almost like tropical pineapple-esque flavor.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's going to work really, really well in drinks.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: And then we have it like prepared already for the next seasons in like June.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: And we know about it already.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I think with every year is going to go like stronger and stronger
54:01
SPEAKER_01: because we know more because we're not only learning about agave spirits,
54:04
SPEAKER_01: but we're learning a lot about British ingredients as well.
54:07
SPEAKER_01: And especially like wild ingredients and flowers and plants and leaves.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: Leaves are incredible.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: You have so many flavorful leaves that I probably never thought about using before.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: But now it's like, oh, you use like, I don't know, there's like mellow sweet.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Mellow sweet leaves taste like watermelon if you cold extract them.
54:28
SPEAKER_01: Thick leaves taste like coconut and things like that.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: So you can get a lot of tropical flavors.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: And you get a lot of flavors similar to how they are in Mexico.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: It takes you much more time.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: They're not the natural way to get there.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily the easy way, but then it's much more fascinating.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: Things like metal sweet taste like Tonka and vanilla.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: So we don't use Tonka and vanilla, but then we're using metal sweet instead.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: And we made, for example, I think a quite simple but easy to understand example is the Carajillo.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: Carajillo is a really well-known drink in Mexico and really, really popular in Mexico.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: But we didn't want to use the Curve 43.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it fits with what we do in our bar.
55:12
SPEAKER_01: But also, I thought we can do much better.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: So we basically made our own type of Curve 43.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: a quite simple way so we use meadow sweet which has like lots of like caramelly
55:22
SPEAKER_01: tonka vanilla notes and we mixed it with mezcal and made like basically like a
55:25
SPEAKER_01: mezcal meadow sweet liquor and that replicated what like liquor 43 would do in a
55:31
SPEAKER_01: car here and then we be getting one of the ingredients that we this will be big dry
55:36
SPEAKER_01: ingredients we're getting from outside of the uk so obviously coffee we're getting
55:40
SPEAKER_01: from outside the uk but also it doesn't grow here
55:43
SPEAKER_01: And so we're getting a coffee from from the hacker.
55:46
SPEAKER_01: And then you can make like a truly Mexican British ingredient based
55:54
SPEAKER_01: It tastes incredible.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think it tastes actually much,
55:55
SPEAKER_01: much better than any other car here you would get with local liquor for free.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned pineapple weed.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious because like I just collected some the other day, actually.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that's a fascinating green.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: I have seen it everywhere.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Like I wrote a book with the chef in Iceland.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: He is a lot of it.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: But I've seen pineapple weed growing all over New York.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: I've seen it in Patagonia.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: It's something that's like worldwide.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's like in the most unlikeliest places, you get this very tropical pineapple flavor.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: How do you use it exactly?
56:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: um we're using it a lot in in vinegars so infusing it into vinegar but we're also
56:37
SPEAKER_01: making quite a lot of tinctures based on it so we are using quite high proof
56:42
SPEAKER_01: alcohol so like 96 or so like that would be um how do you call it in these states
56:47
SPEAKER_01: is it ever ever ever clear i think like like basically like as high as high proof
56:52
SPEAKER_01: as possible and yeah yeah a lecture tincture what yeah whatever yeah and then
56:56
SPEAKER_01: infusing it over like
56:58
SPEAKER_01: like a week or two and it gets like a super like incredible bright green color like
57:02
SPEAKER_01: it's like a room temperature room temperature infusion um over like 10 to 14 days
57:09
SPEAKER_01: so you have to like taste it a couple of times so it doesn't get bitter um and then
57:15
SPEAKER_01: you can use it basically almost like in drops in drinks or like in milligrams in
57:19
SPEAKER_01: drinks and there you get like a lot of like depending a bit when you harvest the
57:25
SPEAKER_01: pineapple wheat so i think like
57:28
SPEAKER_01: For me personally,
57:30
SPEAKER_01: so you were able to get like pineapple beet already like three weeks ago,
57:33
SPEAKER_01: so in the UK,
57:34
SPEAKER_01: but it was much more like caramel,
57:36
SPEAKER_01: like chamomile obviously,
57:38
SPEAKER_01: but like,
57:38
SPEAKER_01: because it's a part of the chamomile family,
57:40
SPEAKER_01: but then like also quite like appley.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: And I think a bit later in the season, it gets like much more like, like pineapple actually.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: So it depends a little bit when you harvest it,
57:51
SPEAKER_01: but I think extracting the flavor through alcohol works really well,
57:54
SPEAKER_01: but at the same time extracting through vinegar works also quite well.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: That's what they're doing in the kitchen quite often, making like a pineapple beet vinegar.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: But then at the same time,
58:04
SPEAKER_01: I could imagine,
58:05
SPEAKER_01: I haven't tried it yet,
58:06
SPEAKER_01: but just guessing because I know that cold extraction with acidic liquid works
58:13
SPEAKER_01: quite well.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: So I could, for example, like verjus.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: Verjus is like an unripe grape juice.
58:17
SPEAKER_01: So I could imagine that like infusing it into verjuice could work quite well as well.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: The only down point is that like maybe like your shelf life is going to be a bit
58:24
SPEAKER_01: shorter than obviously with alcohol or with vinegar.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: But yes, like relatively simple techniques, actually.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: It might be interesting to try distilling it as well and maybe get like more of
58:37
SPEAKER_01: these like floral notes out of it.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like making tinctures work really, really well for us.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: And we have a drink with it on the menu currently.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned verjus.
58:47
SPEAKER_00: You're actually importing it, right?
58:49
SPEAKER_00: I read that somewhere.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: So basically, verjus is like unripe grape juice.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: So like basically when you...
58:58
SPEAKER_01: during it's like almost like a waste product in a way so because during the the
59:02
SPEAKER_01: grape harvest or during like on vineyards you in like around like may june you cut
59:09
SPEAKER_01: off some grapes to give the rest of the grapes more space to grow and these unripe
59:13
SPEAKER_01: grapes that you basically cut off you collect and then you juice them and they have
59:17
SPEAKER_01: like this really tart
59:19
SPEAKER_01: sour really acidic flavor but like at the same time super super fruity and has like
59:24
SPEAKER_01: always traditionally been used instead of like in like old rome and like lots of
59:30
SPEAKER_01: like roman recipes you find it instead of lime juice or lemon juice
59:34
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
59:36
SPEAKER_01: it's quite like a yes,
59:37
SPEAKER_01: like almost like a northern European or central European source of acidity that now
59:44
SPEAKER_01: more and more is used again in cooking,
59:47
SPEAKER_01: but also in in drinks.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think quite often, like outside of the cold world as well, I think in general, if you have like
59:57
SPEAKER_01: Lots of bars basically automatically go for lemon or lime as a source of acidity,
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: but there are lots of other sources of acidity as well,
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: like is it verjus,
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: but also things like kombuchas and things like that.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think quite often, if you use lemon or lime, it's a very overpowering, very powerful flavor.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it makes much more sense to go with something quite fruity,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: aromatic,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: but it's as acidic as lime juice,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: like verjus,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: because it's much more harmonious with the other components and flavors of the drink.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: At the same time, it's just like a local form of acidity.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, it's a waste product.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, why not use it?
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: It's an amazing product.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's around.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: It's abundant, you know, in Europe, I'm sure.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: And otherwise, it would have been thrown away.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: So even better.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_00: We're running out of time.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: But Giuliano, are there any other questions you really wanted to ask?
1:00:53
SPEAKER_03: No, I just think it's a beautiful work and it's pure alchemy, right?
1:01:00
SPEAKER_03: What you're doing, apart from all the sociological work behind it and the importance of producers.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_03: And we could go on the politics of, you know, mezcal production.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_03: We don't have time for that right now, but...
1:01:15
SPEAKER_03: But I think that alchemy of mixing these different mezcals and agaves with what you
1:01:23
SPEAKER_03: were saying,
1:01:23
SPEAKER_03: the way in which you are going about local ingredients is beautiful.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_03: I'm looking forward to trying that.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you should come.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: You have to come over.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: I think it's also going back to the agave topic.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a really accessible way for guests to explore Mezcal.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: And maybe you're not that comfortable with going into a bar and ordering straight spirits,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: but you sit down and cocktails is a much more approachable thing.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_01: So you have one or two,
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: but they're all based on different agaves and different variations and different brands.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: And then you start like chatting and it's like,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: okay,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_01: like now I had,
1:02:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know this Espadin from Oaxaca,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: but I also had a Cupriata from Guerrero.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: So maybe like, oh, why don't you like want to try them neat?
1:02:12
SPEAKER_01: Or like, why don't you want to try like something else?
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: And like,
1:02:14
SPEAKER_01: you start like this conversation and then you're like,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite an interesting and different way of getting people to be
1:02:21
SPEAKER_01: interested in agave spirits besides like,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: obviously like for people who had it before and want to try it neat.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, just like showcasing it in different ways and as much as possible.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_00: One more thing before we go.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: You guys are opening another restaurant, right?
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: Fonda?
1:02:38
SPEAKER_00: Is there going to be a bar program at that as well?
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's actually going to be quite cocktail focused.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: So we're opening Fonda in September in London as well, in Mayfair.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: So quite close to where Coal is.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: A bit more fun, a bit more approachable.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a la carte and not a tasting menu.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: A bit bigger.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_01: We have an outside space as well.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: But then the drinks list is going to be quite heavily focused on cocktails.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: Lots of Palomas, lots of Micheladas, but also a range of classics.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: And again, quite around Mexican spirits as well.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_01: What we didn't talk about at Kohl is besides mezcal,
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: we're also trying to use Mexican whiskeys,
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: Mexican rums,
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: and so on.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: So similar to what we do at Fonda.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_01: We're going to have a house range of Fonda mezcals as well.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_01: So we're going to have four Fonda mezcals.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: So like house mezcals for there.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_01: And then we're not going to have like a dedicated bar.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_01: So they're not going to be a mezcal area.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: But we have like a nice, really well curated mezcal selection and tequila selection there as well.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, lots of fun with agave spirits and Mexican food, cocktails.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's really, really exciting.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_01: We're working on the drinks for it right now and we're putting the spirits list together as well.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: And we just designed the labels.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: So there's lots to come.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: What are you going to mix the Palomas with?
1:04:20
SPEAKER_01: Will it be grapefruit?
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: You can't use grapefruit, can you?
1:04:24
SPEAKER_01: So we're using, for example, we're using a lot of rhubarb.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: so rhubarb works quite well because it has like this like zinginess as well and at
1:04:33
SPEAKER_01: the same time like super like nice like fruity profile as well and we're using pine
1:04:38
SPEAKER_01: so we have been making like a pine soda which like gives like a lot of like citrusy
1:04:42
SPEAKER_01: and freshness yeah those things work really really well cool that sounds awesome
1:04:49
SPEAKER_00: well thank you Matthias it was a really it was a pleasure speaking with you thanks
1:04:53
SPEAKER_00: for kind of sharing your passion with mezcal and agave and
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll get to Kohl's sometime.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: I keep running into Santiago or somebody else that works there in every other part of the world.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: But for some reason, I haven't been to London since you guys opened.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_01: But one day.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_01: You have to come around.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_01: It was really fun.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_01: It's the best thing in the world, sitting together and talking with all Agave spirits.
1:05:18
SPEAKER_01: Let me know when you're around.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_01: I would love to have you down there.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_01: Or if not, we catch up in New York or Los Angeles or wherever we meet up.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_01: All right, man.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_01: Or Mexico.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, guys.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_01: See you.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_03: Have a nice evening.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: You too.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_01: And you have a nice day.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed that interview with Matthias Engelmann from Cole Mascaleria and
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: Cole Restaurant in London.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: Big thank you to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music to the show.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: Find out more about Pat at patbuzzard.com.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Also, go to newworlder.com, sign up to the newsletter, or find New Worlder on Substack.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_00: And also, we have a YouTube channel.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: This episode will be in video on YouTube, youtube.com slash newworlder.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everyone.