Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #730 Sean's Same-Sex Attraction, Marriage in the Beginning and Where Christ Points Us: We Discuss ACT Six

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#730 Sean's Same-Sex Attraction, Marriage in the Beginning and Where Christ Points Us: We Discuss ACT Six · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Stephen Covey had a best-selling book.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was a self-help book, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: He suggested if a person to be truly effective in his life, whether in business or in his life in general, he must always begin with the end in mind.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you're putting a business plan together, you don't start without the end in mind.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: What is this restaurant?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was building restaurants in those days.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: What is this supposed to look like?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: What type of food are we going to serve?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: If I didn't think about that and I just started building a restaurant, it wouldn't go very well.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: Same thing with our lives.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: John Paul II built out this triptych for us in the beginning, what the model was supposed to look like.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: What is this restaurant supposed to operate like?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Then we know the fall.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: All kinds of things happen, right?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: The builder screws up, the wind comes and knocks down the bricks while we're building it, something happens inside.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day, I have to know where it was supposed to go in order to build this out.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Our lives are like that.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we're talking about today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: For those of you who who may not have read one of those acts for a little while, this is a series of three, what John Paul II would call a triptych.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: A triptych is a is a three-panel work of art, and on it, each piece is beautiful.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: But but on it, the three of them go together and tell a story in the beginning before sin, in this case, after the fall, and where we're supposed to go in this act, we we meet a young guy named Sean who's got same-sex attractions, or he thinks they're same-sex attractions, and we're just reminding him, hey, dude, you know, where are we going?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Where are we going?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Just let's cut to the confusion.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here with Mark Schmidt and Cooper Bond.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: And Cooper, Mark, welcome.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: And and Cooper, tell me your name, how do you pronounce your last name so I get so I say it properly?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Bond.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I was pretty uh I think that's what I said, right?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think I tried to put an accent somewhere where it didn't need to be.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, good to have you guys.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: So so Mark and Cooper are from the uh Claymore A team, and so these guys go out, they have the families, children, they'll they can tell you their own story here.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: But in the midst of all that, helping so many young guys and not just young men, but the young people in general who are living in a dark, confusing time and just trying to say, hey, what is the truth of things?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: How do we find ourselves?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we share this, you know.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right before we came on, we were talking about how many people don't experience that awe and wonder.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, who right outside the sunrise is going to be coming up.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's spectacular.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the time there's something cool that's happening out there, and we don't even see it.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: We're looking at those phones.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's why the first thing in the morning, I just remind everybody we do the Claymore 10-minute morning ritual.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: Before you look at that phone in the morning, get down on your knees, open your heart up.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a temptation's not a sin.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: You just let all that stuff go.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Bring in the light of Christ and start to walk out into the story and uh see if it doesn't work for you.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: Mark, I'm gonna throw it to you.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, what did you think about this act?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: And tell them a little bit about yourself and and and you're in the office already this morning, right?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm up and at it early.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I got uh three three young kids, and uh there was already some stirring going on this morning, so I thought the uh office was uh was the best spot for uh for a for a quiet for a quiet morning.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: But no, very blessed.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um married to my wife, Margaret.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're coming up on seven years this summer and uh have a five, three, and one year old.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, really my life has been gone through a a very radical change through through the teachings of theology of the body, through the beauty and goodness of our Catholic faith.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, just uh it's a privilege to be a part of Claymore and just the power that the truth has on our lives, you know, and to look at my marriage and my children and really seeing the fruit of coming back to my Catholic faith and and just the power of this message.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think something that you had mentioned with your introduction there, which I think a lot of people experience this, is that there is this underlying angst that people have when they don't really understand the story.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Jack, I've heard you say it's like you it's like you come into a movie and you're halfway in and you don't know the beginning, you don't really know the plot line, you're kind of just treading water, trying to figure out what's exactly going on here.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's a lot of people going through life like that of like, what is this all about?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's really the power of this act and what we're gonna be unpacking this morning is it's giving you that vision, that lens of this is where we're going, you know, this is what this whole story is about.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And once you understand that, I mean, the foundation that gets shared up in your life is incredible.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's something that I've experienced myself.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, can you imagine, you know, going through this life, just getting blown around your whole life by the spirit of the age and never knowing why, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Cooper, good to have you, brother.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I can definitely imagine that.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to be here.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Been there, done that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it doesn't work.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you hear nothing else that I'm saying, that's you know, take that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, my name's Cooper.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like Mark, got a house full of young kids and uh a beautiful wife.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've been married in I think about eight years as well.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So right around that same time.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: You better get that one down, brother.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, don't don't be stumbling like that in front of her.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I yeah, like luckily she can't.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like a year, but I know it's been about eight years, you know, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: It flies by, both forever and you know, new, yeah, but kind of came out of uh a very, very worldly living.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think Mark heard a little bit of that earlier in the week.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: We were we were together for dinner and some of those things come up.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of a time where I was thinking with the spirit of the age and getting caught up in and whatever it was.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: So not the exact same sentence as Sean, but but right in there, you know, thinking or not thinking, I think is the problem that I had living with my passions, guiding my intellect.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a dangerous spot to be in.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Looking back, I think it hurts more than it feels good, but we think it feels good at the time.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of different things to chase.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, if if you don't know where you're headed, I I didn't know what I was for.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know who my eternal father was when you're when you're kind of rooted in that.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that makes a big difference.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I love the conversation that you had with with Sean and Act Six that was trying to trying to say, hey, look, look a little farther down.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're a little too nearsighted.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I try to look at my sins, is that if I'm drawn to something that's not God Himself, then I'm I'm not looking far enough ahead.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And not just ahead in time, but ahead in purpose to your point, which is you know, why are you building a restaurant?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is the same kind of question.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you building it for?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: What's it supposed to in the end of it?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what not only what are you supposed to get out of it, but who does it change you into?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think trying to do that with everything in our life is the the Christian battle, is remember, you know, why am I waking up early?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this kid, you know, waking up in the middle of the night screaming for no apparent reason?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's a purpose to all of that.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the beauty of our our faith is that it turns every every temptation into a an opportunity for victory, every challenge into you know, a cross that ultimately leads to resurrection.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the the great joy of it.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I pray that anybody watching that's going through that's able to see past the past the pain, past the struggle, past the immediate attractions to things that fade away.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think you have to you have to ask what's the truth of things, you know?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: What's the truth of things, even in our bodies, to say, what is the truth of things?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if if you don't even look at your own body, to you know, Cooper made a point, I didn't even think.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just acting.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you say, if nothing else, I can look down before I take a shower this morning.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: I can look down on my body and say, hey, you know, my body doesn't make sense without a woman, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: A woman's body doesn't make sense without.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if we don't even if we don't even start with those basic truths, which we're not, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Which we're not, look how confusing young people are.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I kind of just What are your impressions, uh Mark, of Act Six?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and really trying with the idea of of let let's let's unpack what's the truth of things, you know, and the awe and wonder of what we see around us.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as I read through Act Six, you know, it was kind of bringing me back to as I kind of mentioned, there was there was a profound kind of conversion moment in my life when I was reading Theology of the Body for the first time, Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And someone, you know, as Cooper stated as well, just kind of living with uh with the age of the world, just a very vice-driven life, a very selfish life.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then reading the words of John Paul II and says, your life has meaning in the amount in which you make yourself a gift to another person, that you're made to actually give yourself away.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's stamped in our bodies that we're made for gift for another person, that God is this eternal communion of love that we're we're destined to share in this communion.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: But we're we're made for authentic communion that's rooted in self-gift.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and I just realized, wow, no wonder I am so miserable in my life and so so depressed and and anxious is my life is flipped.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's it's the inversion of this where it's really total self-seeking and it's just about, yeah, it it's a life of selfishness.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: As John Paul II talks about, the opposite of love is not hatred, it's actually selfishness.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I think starting at this, I think a question we can all ask ourselves is like, what areas of our lives is selfishness taking root?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we're closing ourselves off from making ourselves a gift.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and those are those areas, I think, right off the bat, where we have that self-reflection of saying, where do where am I not willing to make myself a gift for others, for my spouse, for my children, uh, whatever it may be.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But those are those areas where there's always going to be a ceiling in your life.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're never really gonna experience the flourishing that God wants.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, think about just the the just waking up.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: Cooper, you woke up early this morning.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we're we started recording at 5 45 uh a.m.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's pretty early.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: And these guys uh to come on the show today, and these guys, again, they have families, you're worrying about all kinds of things.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: How the day is gonna go out, how am I gonna make money today?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: How am I gonna do this?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: How the you can see that you can easily get thrown off the path, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, John John Paul spoke about this so well, you know, this Eros, this these great desires, especially sexual desires, were given to us by design, by God, to lead us really to where we're going, you know, and and and to be open and to be passionate and uh and desire the source of divine love in life, which is God Himself.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's what your marriage, and that's what Mark's describing, your marriage, your your giving.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Christ on the cross is totally pouring himself out to us, and that's what we're doing.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's what Mark is expressing in the day-to-day stuff.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: Getting up and that that that young one's crying already, man.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: I can't believe my day's starting like this.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I barely got any sleep last night.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: If you can start to reframe that into these little sacrifices and start to aim those sacrifices at the one on the cross who's also sacrificing for you, something happens.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think unless you frame this that way, you can just get tired, man, and just say, I can't do this anymore, right?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm getting out of my relationship.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm gonna walk away from my family.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh a guy that used to work for me left his wife and his three kids to get into a same-sex relationship just because he felt like this was his calling now in life, you know, and just leave three little kids at home.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: I used to say to him, Michael, I said, go home, man, take care of your family, you know.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: But it was it was again this distorted view of, you know, no, it's for me, it's about me, it's about me.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you're never gonna find yourself that way.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think just one one other point on that that I think is really a really powerful mental shift, it's kind of reframing, is that I think a lot of guys interiorly kind of can repress these strong desires that we have, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they think these desires are bad, I need to get rid of them.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're really through the lens of uh theology of the body and what we're talking about here in act six is it's not a repression of these desires, but it's an untwisting, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So realizing that these desires are a good thing within us, but letting the healing, love, and grace of Christ to come in and untwist those desires and and have them oriented correctly.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so it really is a is a powerful, I think, shift to realize.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think the question then becomes, well, how do I untwist these desires?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: How do I open these up to Christ?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not this life of just constant repression, you know, that these desires were not meant to be people passionless walking around.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like these passions are part of our part of our DNA, but it's it's that's what I'm saying.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know any I don't know any men that would that that want to get rid of their passions and desires, to your point.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: And otherwise we white knuckle it, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: The key, and I'm Cooper, I'm gonna test you a little bit here.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Do you remember part of that Claymore 10-minute morning ritual is uh is actually untwisting these?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: And and and do you remember uh you want to give the guys a little light on this?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you've been doing this in the morning.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and because that what I tell all our guys that are part of Claymore is just do that yourself, that 10-minute morning ritual.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I get it that people sometimes for their lifetime are joining us now, and sometimes for their lifetime have certain regimens that they follow, you know, especially older guys.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to say add something or take something or change something.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's very important for us to do that 10-minute morning ritual ourselves, because even if we're doing something else now, those young guys need this, they need that structure, and it's so beautiful.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: It gets you every single step there is done on purpose to do something to open our hearts.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: And what's the second one?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh do you remember praying with temptations?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: You gotta be doing it because that's exactly what what Mark was describing.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh praying with temptations is letting you know Christ untwist, undistort those.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, again, with somebody like Sean from this act, if you tr if you try to suppress those, okay, uh, it's not same text attracting, I'm not attracted to that guy and have no feelings, and you try to push it down, at some point you're gonna explode and you're gonna want to indulge in whatever way.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: So the idea is you know, let those live with those passions and desires every day.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to be a passionless guy.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I'm I'm no spring chicken anymore, but I live with passion and I love it because I'm opening that up.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the way to do that is starting to pray with temptation.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: You want to get into that a little bit, Cooper?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking thinking back, thinking through this act, there was a there's a line that stuck out in the middle of the last paragraph that sums a lot of this up, where you're discussing uh you know, love is is embracing the cross, and to deny this is to underestimate the power of the cross.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: So hold fast to this treasure.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do not settle for a distorted or impoverished view of love.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so almost I'd probably be willing to say all of my sins are because of a distorted and impoverished view of love.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to, if if I'm ever tempted, right, and when I when I'm tempted to lesser loves than than the you know Jesus, then I'm gonna miss something.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna miss something he has to offer.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think praying through those, and I I was thinking back to um I finally got the uh got the guts to go back to confession after after being away from from the church for a long time.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was beginning to believe, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was starting to agree, like, yes, I need I need some firm foundation.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna start making decisions based on truth, not based on feeling, all of that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: What what what what got you to that point?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: What what what what was happening that got you to that point?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because because you know that's where you see this confusion, and these young guys that we're meeting are saying something is a catalyst.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So what was it for for I would I was being drawn to the truth and a lot of the the intellectual side of the church.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was finding it, it was quenching a thirst.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I went through engineering school, but I was beginning to read in a lot of those the business books that you're talking about, the Stephen Covey's, the John Maxwell's, the I was I was starting to read those, um, a lot of financial stuff.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And finally one of one of the financial guys was a Christian, and he got me to read Proverbs, and I I found I found water that I was needing.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I found I found something that was satisfying a thirst that was way up here, right?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: It hadn't gotten to my heart, it hadn't quite gotten to my body yet, but it was starting to affect the way that I I was recognizing truth for what it is.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so it took a while to get to the heart where I I then recognized this truth, I'm living in a way that's incompatible with this truth.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I've lived in a way that was incompatible with this truth.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I for me I had to understand my sins before I actually felt them.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was I dear, but once you live in once you live a certain way, you start to get numb to that guilt, right?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: You you maybe you feel the guilt the first time, but then no one's if if no one was there telling me, hey, that's wrong.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're you have an impoverished view of love.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, don't don't love you know the beer, don't love the whiskey, don't love whatever, you know, more than you love your friends or more than you love yourself or your your God.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, you have to wake up and go to church tomorrow.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't have that sort of no one was close enough to me to see those sins and direct that direct those passions to it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: What did what a confession, Cooper?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: What did it do for you?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that confession, it was, I think at the time, like 12 years.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was basically my first reconciliation after college.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot in there.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I should have scheduled it a different time.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of a tip tip for those uh who are in need of that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Schedule that with your priest.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you can do it anonymously through the through the parish office.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: You're talking about your first confession after a while, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: If there's a line behind you, you could be in there for a little while.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: There was a line behind me for yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: People wasn't line before there was a line.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: People are you gonna get out of there before before this thing's all over with or not?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Just two more, two more, two more sins.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I I recognized that and I said, I said, you know, I finally saw it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I said, my life, I was I was aiming for something totally different.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then went into confession on and I there was there was a few things, and I told the priest, I said, I'm very like, all those that I just said was just a pretty rough list, and not necessarily any worse, but there was like one where I was just asked, I told him I was like, I'm super ashamed of this one.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he looked at me, he goes, like, one, I've heard it all, you can't surprise me.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Two, if you've done it, I've probably done it too.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he had he had lived of like a crazy like punk rock life, you know, before that.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, after getting to know him, that it made sense, but and he said, you know, every sin that we do is in some way seeking God and not finding it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so no matter how ashamed I was, like that was that was a key point for me, is that our sins, and when we search those to your point, you you sit down and you pray with temptation, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're inviting God into a hole that we or the devil is trying to make in us, or that we already have, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: If we have a something that we know we shouldn't do, yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading through Gattiam at Spez right now, and it's talking about how we find God in our conscience, where conscience is sort of the image of God in us.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when we know something's right or we know something's wrong, that's the place where God acts in our soul.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's sort of hard.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was it's hard for me to like figure out where God is inside me.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's easier when it's in the Eucharist or um, you know, even his sign in nature.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Nature can be so beautiful, but I'm I'm a little bit more of a mess in here, and it's harder to for me to see that.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: But with twins.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it has to start right there, it has to start with the heart.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to get prayer is is how you're gonna do that.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Praying with temptation, I'll just remind everybody, um, is in Act 11 in the Claymore uh battle plan handbook.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: So so when you're on your knees in the morning, you're gonna open your desires up.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like Cooper said, there's all kinds of things that are gonna attack us.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Don't get frustrated with that.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Just open it all up.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's a battle.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And John Paul would say that the the first battle is always gonna be fought on the human heart between love and lust, between uh self-giving, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And and with this authentic love for me to give myself away and and grasping, trying to take it.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: Let me say it this way: that the the Catholic Church would say two men and two women can't get married.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: People in the secular world, or even some Catholics, I hear, would say, well, if if two men or two women can't get married, then they can't love one another, right?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and they don't realize that that that you don't have to have sex to love somebody, right?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: 99.99% of the people in my life, you know, that I love, I'm not having sex with.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, somehow we we've reduced love down to a feeling and then down to sex, you know, like we have sex with everybody, and that's love.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not true.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: So Sean in Acts six is called to love.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: And and a lot of those times these attractions are are powerful, you know, and and we see the beauty, we see the good that God created in those around us.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: But unfortunately, in Sean's case, and in too many cases, it gets twisted into, ooh, this is a sexual thing.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think too, you know, I think when you lose sight of of the big picture and where where we're headed, you know, I remember hearing um my sister Miriam James, listeners have heard of her, she's you know, powerful in the healing ministry, does has a lot of great talks.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember her saying something she said, what is eternally true is most true.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, when you look at heaven and our destiny, that we are made for this communion with God, that is our ultimate fulfillment.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you look at someone that has same-sex attraction or or whatever it may be, the culture is saying, Well, you're taking away their opportunity for love.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're taking away their opportunity for fulfillment.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with our Catholic lens, um we can understand that no matter what your desires are, you know, no matter what you're wrestling with, what you're struggling with, every person, every, every child of God is made for this eternal destiny, is made for total satisfaction, is made for total peace, total joy.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as you mentioned there, Sean, of course, you are welcome in the Catholic Church.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Every single human being is welcome in the Catholic Church because we are all made for this eternal communion with God.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is the ultimate fulfillment.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, Cooper, you had you had talked about kind of this conscience and understanding, you know, it's it's an ordering or disordering of goods.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think a very powerful and practical question we can ask ourselves is when we're feeling this pull, when we're when we're drawn to something, is just pausing, right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something so often what I fail to do, where will lead me into my vices and attachments, is the simple question is, what am I looking for?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what am I looking for this thing to do?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: What am I looking for this fourth chocolate chip cookie to do for me?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because we are looking for God, you know, it's like St.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Augustine said, those who are lost in their passions are less lost than those who have lost their passions.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like these people that are just indulging, they are they're looking for the infinite.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just in all the finite things.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we can pause and and develop that habit of saying, what am I looking for here?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, think of in in the you talk about this, we've become ravenous creatures, don't we?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you look around the culture and you look at these people yelling and screaming all over, somehow they've lost their their way and it just becomes emotion.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: You could see it in just angry people that aren't searching for the truth anymore.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you ever watched these um these independent reporters asking people, why are you protesting?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they don't even have an answer.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: They have no idea.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Your whole life becomes like a crazy protest.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: You have no idea where it's going.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: So Jesus says this.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: He steps into the story and he we're confused, and he says, Why are you confused?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm this, I'm this, and he goes, Ah, you are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: For in the resurrection, they neither marry or are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's pointing us to the end, to your point, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just taking from what you said, Jesus is pointing it and saying, take your passions and desires.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, you're gonna hit this world for a moment, a blink of an eye, and you're off for eternity.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you think about eternal life, you know, we're gonna be out of here in a blink of an eye.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the next generation will be here, or the end of the world will be here by then.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: But all of those people that came before us, right?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Billions of people, they're all gone.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so where where are they, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we're supposed to be heading someplace.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus is saying, in the resurrection, they're not married or given in marriage.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: So marriage is a sign, a tiny sign, reflecting Trinitarian love.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the sacrament.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's the sign.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know where you're really going, you're going there.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: But you got to live it out here.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: I have to be filled with life and love and become that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: And each one of us is called to be that person of love, which is self-sacrificial.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to ask yourself what is the truth of things, huh?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: What is the truth of things?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: What is my body for?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: What is this?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: So you are wrong because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: What does he mean, you know, in the resurrection, they neither they neither marry or are given in marriage.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: I thought my marriage was, you know, with my wife was going to be extended on for eternity.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Any comments there?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's um it's similar to the relationship between the old covenant and the new covenant, where the old covenant isn't abolished, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your marriage won't be abolished, but there's actually a new covenant that it blossoms into.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, he says in one breath, he says that, and then in Revelation, we see a marriage supper of the lamb, right?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there's at least there's some kind of marriage, it's just not the kind you're familiar with.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um you had no eye has seen, no ear has heard, you know, you don't you don't know what's coming, but we get a s we get a glimpse of it in with Saint John and Revelation.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so our marriage is it's like you said, pointing to that marriage supper of the Lamb, which is a different kind of marriage.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we're not meant for a marriage, but we're meant for the marriage, the marriage between God and his faithful and Christ and the bride.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so our goal here, the reason we get married or enter enter any vocation is to prepare us to be that bride.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So in our in our wives, we see a we see a glimpse of what what the church, what the entire body of Christ is gonna look like in heaven.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Christ is the bridegroom.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: He calls his bride into this relationship.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this is a real sign.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: We have to become persons of love right here.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: He said, you know, you'll be like angels in heaven, but angels in heaven, there's they're sexless, you know, right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: They're just spirits.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Is is is that what he means?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm I'm throwing some ringers at you guys.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't expect you to have this off the top of your head.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So we're not given in marriage.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Marriage, then, to Cooper's point, you know, it this is not the delete button, this is the complete button, right?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: My wife and I are a sign, a sacrificial sign.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: I hope my wife and I are together in in heaven.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day, our fulfillment is going to come from both of us living in this eternal love story with God Himself, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I may not make it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: My wife may make it, you know, uh, but she still is going to find herself in this love story.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's why it's so important for all of us to get there.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: But how about the angels in heaven?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: They don't even have they don't even have bodies, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what what don't angels do?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: They'll be like angels in heaven.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: You think about angels.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what can't they do?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm throwing I'll throw some zingers at you.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, we do something, and the angels are actually jealous of us for this, that they don't do.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is cooper I think this is right down Cooper's alley.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cooper's Alley.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So uh see, uh yeah, with angels being bodiless, I think, and this is um a soapbox of mine.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is why we need religious around, especially religious sisters.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: But they they give us a sign, as the angels do, that there is consummation without sex, that there's union without bodily intercourse.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that there's a beauty in that, and we can actually, you know, we're called to that sort of union both with the church but also with God Himself.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's great hope in that.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: That angels, you know, whatever we're seeking through sex is totally fulfilled in heaven.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the angels are already fulfilling that.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there's a there's great great joy in that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and even in marriage, you sp you I spent most of my time not even holding my wife's hand, like most of my life is is spent not in physical contact with my wife.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um that doesn't mean I'm not united with her.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are still one flesh, even when there's space between us.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you take that to its logical conclusion with with angels, and they they have a union that even without bodies.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: And and here's where people can get confused.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: We will have bodies in heaven, and so we we're an embodied soul, we're we're a body and a soul, and we will continue that in the resurrection.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we will have bodies, and and so the difference is that angels can't procreate, right?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Angels, angels were created, and boom, that's it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they look at us and they go, whoa, you guys can bring eternal beings into the world that God is you're allowed to cooperate with God to bring eternal beings that are gonna be in heaven forever.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: But the angels don't get married.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we're in heaven, our bodies will be there.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: But the angels themselves have never got married, never procreated, and yet they have this fullness with God.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll be like angels, we'll still have bodies, but we'll be fulfilled in heaven, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: We aren't gonna be procreating anymore up there.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody that's gonna live forever is being is being exploded into life right here on this earthly planet.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine that?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is the privilege that we have.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're called to bring other eternal beings into a relationship forever.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's um it's amazing, you know, the the the power of love.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's where you could see really the distortion over things like abortion and these gender ideologies, right, that are distorting this.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know, we have this legacy, this beauty of bringing eternal beings and families into the in into the universe forever.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Mark, any closing thoughts?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll share on this is and Cooper well well said, that was beautiful.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think the reality, there's something to sit with, right?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because life is challenging and there's the the the aches and the pains and the confusions and and questions throughout throughout all that.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think something that's very powerful to kind of that I find myself meditating on at times is that you know, in the end, you know, when we're staring at Christ face to face, when we see him, there will be no disappointment.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: There there will be nothing lacking.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: There won't be like, okay, this is great, but this is missing or this is missing.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: In heaven, there is that, you know, as Cooper, you had mentioned that verse, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, but God has prepared for those that love him.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: We we cannot fathom the full satisfaction that does await us in this eternal communion.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think living our life grounded in that hope that Christ will never disappoint us.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: He never will.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so live your life grounded in that hope.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like you will be completely satisfied.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a mystery, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about it, but we cannot exhaust kind of the mystery of what does await us and the joy that's there.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: So hey, beautiful.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll throw the last word to Cooper, but let me just say this.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody, start that if you want to get into the this is not brain surgery.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: Start before you look at that phone, start on your knees.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: You're opening your heart up.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Let it be done to me according to your word.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Do whatever he tells me.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm opening this up.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: So as I walk around today, I'm listening to Mark's point.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: What is he telling me to do today?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: How are we walking here today?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Every temptation that floods into my head, into my heart, I offer that up.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't get rid of my passion desires.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: I direct them to where we're going at the end of the day.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I say that I listen to divine mercy myself because it's the beauty of Jesus speaking to Sister Faustina about mercy and forgiveness, and then boom, I say the St.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Michael prayer because it, you know, you need protection, and then go out and love the next person you see.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not brain surgery, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: Read one act at least a week.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we were on the 18, so we should be reading one of those every night before we go to sleep.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: It takes five minutes.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: You're on the 10-5 program, 10 minutes on your knees in the morning, five minutes at night to read this stuff.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: You come into the full story.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and and uh as you go through this, you start to get your heart back.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it's not brain surgery, but you're in a battle, brothers, and that's why we got a sword, right?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna need grace to live this out, man.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, Satan's gonna twist you like nothing.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: He's gonna manipulate you, and it's not even a challenge for him, man.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: We are so easily manipulated in this crazy world.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Cooper, what do you think about all that?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's great.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a story that I know uh has changed all of our lives.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a story that it's way better than any other story that any other person is coming up with.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Can you can you recap those two things?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because what what you just said there about you know, this changes your your your life, and it's an incredible story, brother.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: The story of love of the God who loves and and empowers us to love him back and love others.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: That story is a a story that's changed all of our lives sitting here, and it's a story that you don't get anywhere else.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't come from any other source.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I've checked.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I'm an engineer and I checked, right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I can't help but systematically go through things and um and there there is no other call it a worldview, call it religion, call it faith, you know, whatever, whatever's uh uh a term you like to use, but that the the worldview that you know, a biblical worldview, a Catholic worldview is the only one that makes sense.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really the only once you embrace it, it's the only one that's in full color.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, those are good parting words.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: Say thanks, everyone.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for joining us today.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: Mark Cooper, you guys are a joy, appreciate it.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Bye bye, everyone.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: See you, fellas.