Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #62: Parenting Adult Children with Addiction and Mental Health Issues | Advice from a Therapist in Recovery

Transcript

#62: Parenting Adult Children with Addiction and Mental Health Issues | Advice from a Therapist in Recovery · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Launch, a podcast for parents of older children in their 20s and 30s who are struggling to launch into adulthood.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm joined by Susan Raphael, an addiction and mental health clinician in private practice for over 20 years, and the founder of Sustainable Recovery Counseling Services in Toronto.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Susan works closely with individuals and families navigating addiction, mental health, and recovery.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: She's the author of What's Wrong with My Team, a practical guide that helps parents respond to their child's addiction and mental health challenges with clarity, empathy, and effective boundaries.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, Susan shares her own personal story of addiction and recovery, which brings a powerful and honest perspective to the work she does.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Today's topic is for any parent living this day in and day out, feeling overwhelmed, unsure how to talk to their child, how to set limits that actually lead to change, and how to take care of themselves while managing this difficult situation.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Remember to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode, and please share this with a parent who needs to hear it.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Ready?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Ready.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I get so excited when I start these things.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Susan, thank you for joining me here on launch.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited to do this with you, Mary.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, really, there is no shortage of topics to talk about for parents with older children who are struggling.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: But this one, this is one of the most uh important issues that parents are struggling with.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really looking forward to it.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't ask for a better guest to have this conversation with.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Likewise, it's nice to talk to somebody who's very familiar kind of clinically and experientially with this population and this.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sometimes challenges.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think I just love doing this because I I get to talk to like-minded individuals about it, but but we do have a listener base.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: We do.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they are really in need of help.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So so let's give them that today.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give them as much as we possibly can.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but before we talk about your work, um, I'd love to start off with your story because what you do is so deeply rooted in your own lived experience.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it is, yes.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk us through that?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk us through those earlier days?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: Grab your tissue boxes because it's it's a sad story.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm just kidding.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: But it is, it's um recovery is my superpower.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's what's enabled me, my lived experience has enabled me to really understand and also get that credibility that the clients understand that I have been there.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I was a normal teen growing up in the suburb of Toronto, Don Mills.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: And as soon as I hit that age where the dopamine was flowing, kind of the I liked to party and I loved the dancing, and I loved music, and I liked the social element.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: And alcohol was always a companion through that, experimenting with other substances.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: It was the 80s, and there were uppers and bennies and things of that nature.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I was always really seeking that high, the the not so much for marijuana or cannabis, but um and so you know, I was looking for that, I was I was looking to change the way I felt outside of myself.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd also had there were some other experiences that kind of made me very thirsty at a young age.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: So when I found that as a way to cope, it just took off and it wasn't really controlled.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I probably qualified for a recovery program when I was about 17 or 18.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: But I was able to kind of get things online and go to school and very much make everything on the outside look okay, even though I was really imploding on the inside and didn't know how to ask for help.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I so love working with my young clients and families that are willing to ask for help.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: And if they ask for help, it's like, yes, recovery is so possible.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, long story short, my addiction took me to emergency rooms, to police involvement.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: I was homeless in Vancouver in the mid to late 90s, and I relied on the shelter system.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was in, so for that, I was in an abusive relationship, but we were very much using substances, and that was a huge part of the abusive cycle and low self-esteem for me.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I did bootstrap my way up from being in a shelter system.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was kicked out of a shelter for drinking, so not being able to see the consequences of my behavior and how they were impacting.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so I went back to the abusive relationship because I'd been kicked out of the shelter, ended up back in the shelter system.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: So that was like a back and forth and back and forth.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I had a graduate education in psychology at that point.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: So self-knowledge was not enough to clean me up.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't enough for me to realize that alcohol was what was holding me back.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: I was very much in the characteristics of addiction, denial, rationalization, minimization, not really telling anybody how much I needed alcohol.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: I was physically dependent.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: I had DTs and I had seizures in the workplace.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was working in film in Vancouver and I had a seizure on set.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't really know at the time it was an alcoholic seizure.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: But later on, I kind of, you know, I when I understood more about the disease of addiction and the symptoms.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I was able to get out of that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it was still a couple of years before I got sober.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: My family intervened.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: So family is a huge factor in my own story of getting involved, trying to fix, for sure, trying to fix and control me.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: But at that desperate time, I was willing to allow their support.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I, you know, I was still drinking and I didn't want to give that up.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know how to give it up and live life on life's terms until I ended up in detoxes and in Toronto, back in Toronto, and then in a treatment center where I started to understand that I was a sick person.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: I was a very sick young woman and not a bad young woman because I felt really bad and really ashamed and really remorseful.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that's a terrible place to be.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: You wouldn't have known it from the outside because there's that pride, like we want to make it look like we got it together, desperate to look like I had it together.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but I didn't.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I needed help.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that was that was the first, that was almost 27 years ago today, that I asked for help and I was in treatment.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I never looked back.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I need I have a few questions.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, what age range are we talking about here?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because you started at what age and what time, what at what period did you actually Yeah, I started it substance involvement um at about 16.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: I already had an active eating disorder.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: So the mental health stuff was there.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: I had uh we'd lost our mother to cancer when we were all adolescents.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: I have two sisters.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I was 13 when I lost my mom.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: So for me, that was the adverse childhood event.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not to say that I wouldn't have become alcoholic, that that that was not the, you know, I that that doesn't matter.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's a very complex uh mental health and addictions are very complex.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Nevertheless, those were things that factored into the eating disorder, trying to control, trying to really control my world.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Started drinking at 16, drugs were a part of it, cocaine and uppers, up until I couldn't afford them anymore.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I had to choose between alcohol or drugs.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I got sober when I was 30, um, I think 31.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: So the late 20s, and I was having all of those.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was not employable.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was jumping around jobs.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: I was fired from jobs.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: I had left home thinking that Vancouver will help me.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I was in a relationship and so other dependencies like relationships and relationships with people who like to drink just like I did, or more.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I could, you know, in that codependent kind of lens, look at them and say, You need to work to support us.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: So you can't be drinking like that, where I didn't have to look at myself.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I was in that yeah, transitional age of um trying to adult partying like a teenager when I was later in life.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then not it wasn't a party anymore.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: It was just drinking to not get sick from withdrawal.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: It was just drinking to give because I didn't know what else to do.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So when did you reach out for help?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: What was a pivotal moment in your life where you went from 17 to 31 and really got the help that you needed?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there were there there's always these little stop gaps along the way.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's these little cracks.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, there was a police officer in Vancouver who once again the police were called for a domestic dispute between my my boyfriend and I.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: And he said to me, Um, he's not gonna change.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: You have to change.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do something different.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't do anything at that moment, but it was uh he had compassion, and he seemed to understand this pattern because he was an officer and had experience with that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he conveyed to me in a compassionate way a message, and that was like a nugget that stuck with me.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I say my first moment of clarity was around the relationship that this guy's not going to change and I have to leave.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and and that, so the panty kind of dropped for me around that, but it had nothing to do with drinking.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was like now I needed to drink to cope with everything I'd been through in the relationship.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, but my point being that there were these little nuggets of truth that would kind of come in.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: And they were often delivered in, I'd say most of the time, delivered in nice, compassionate, not perfect, but they certainly weren't delivered with shame bombing, like you smell like booze, you're gonna have to leave, you're fired, um, which just made me retreat and feel more shame, more remorse.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's ways to have consequences expressed or impact of behavior expressed without that guilt, shame, remorse cycle being triggered.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: And those are the moments that I remember.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: People telling me, you're worth more, you know, you can do this, you deserve better.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe alcohol's the problem, although I resisted that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but in in these compassionate messages.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're actually incredibly accomplished right now.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: But you're a mental health and addiction specialist running a successful private practice.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is an incredible journey that you went on from these many years struggling with your addiction and mental health issues.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you've been doing this now 20 years?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: 20, well, really since 99, I started working in the treatment center, but more in private practice style, probably since the early 2000s.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and to be a part-time counselor in the treatment center that I went to was very powerful.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's where all the counselors were in recovery.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a huge component of me getting well because I they weren't a psychiatrist I was talking to.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't a social worker, they weren't a doctor.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: They were women who had been in the dark places I had been, and and many worse too, lost losing their kids or, you know, just terrible, terrible consequences of addiction and mental health issues.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I could see that they were recovering.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that having that modeled to me with someone with that lived experience, it's just you just can't put into words how meaningful that is.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: If it was possible for them, it's got to be possible.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there's ch maybe there's hope for me.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So there's power in this community for sure.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, absolutely.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: And there's many paths to recovery as well.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: So finding someone or finding community and connection around uh recovery, even if you don't choose abstinence.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's there's um, there's so much support there.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so much more today than there was when I was coming through.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: So many more programs.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we hear a lot about the barriers, and there's definitely barriers that exist and the wait lists, but there are a lot more resources out there online.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm always hopeful that there's lots.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: We people don't always know how to navigate systems, and that's where professionals like us can be very helpful.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: We can put, you know, we can give people the the information they might be uh lacking.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what have you noticed?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, um, in the past five years, have there been a lot of changes?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, well, of course we have have post-pandemic and all the young folks that went through the pandemic, either maybe in their, you know, um adulting stages.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so they were definitely impacted.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: So there's that.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: Then then there is um, there's also a lot of like from the lens of a mental health and addiction clinician, there are um challenges in the world.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think teens and young people, people trying to adult launch, they are under more pressure and stress now than than almost ever before.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: And and parents are too.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Some of those are um online polls to to gambling, to gaming, to kind of being in this metaverse and not as able to function in the real world and real relationships.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's political, socioeconomic issues.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: There are always those, but I think there's there's a lot that young people are struggling with.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, today that that's very different.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um can't cannabis is huge too, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it's kind of the silent uh killer, or you know, we don't have these detrimental, we don't see people robbing banks necessarily or getting involved in in gang crime for cannabis, but it's the slow, like the retreating to the basement, video gaming, not socializing, not engaging in in personal hygiene.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's that kind of like it's really a slippery slope with cannabis.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I see a lot of that.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um vaping as well.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Vaping is um, you know, tremendously challenging for the developing lung system, and the consequences of that are huge.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: So those are some of the the trends or things that that are cropping up, say in the last five five years that I'm noticing.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Parents don't understand these factors either.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Vaping, vaping cannabis, vaping nicotine, all the different modality, all the different modes of cannabis delivery through edibles, through there are so many different products out there.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a lot for parents to try to keep up with.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So when someone comes to you and they say, I need help with my kid, where do you begin?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm, good question.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, I I ask them, uh I really try to meet them where they're at.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I will ask them, and and my my guide, my book does outline my process.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: So ask them what are the behaviors and symptoms that they're seeing.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Don't interpret it for me, but tell me what you're actually seeing.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: So are you seeing signs, symptoms, behaviors that you're concerned about?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then we'll kind of rule out depending on the age and stage of the young person, if they're 25 and up, if they're 35 and up, if they're 30 and up, there's sort of different um functional um indicators that we'd look for, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but how how are they doing and how are you doing?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because there is this, there's this myth that the only person that needs to change is the one with the mental health or addictive problem.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's a real misnomer because the family is a system.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Whether the young person's out at school or out at a job or living in the home or outside of the home, the family is still a system.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: And when one person in the family changes, one person in a system changes, everyone changes.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to be willing to be on that change process.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not this idea of dropping them off at my office and I'm gonna fix them and then bring them back to you.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, everyone needs to have their process and the parents having a parallel process.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: There's lots of evidence to support that that is really helpful for the challenged young person.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And how common is it for you to see addiction and mental health challenges show up together?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: More common than not.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's stats around co-occurring.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: So when there's a mental health issue alongside, sometimes a mental health issue reveals itself during the recovery process too, or can worsen during the recovery process.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's very common.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we have to be very skilled at understanding what's going on.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then addiction is the one thing that we can actually work at changing.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: So we can't necessarily, you know, we can treat symptoms of mental health issues, but we can eliminate substances and then let's see what we have.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have to do it forever, it doesn't have to be for the rest of your life.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: But if we really want to understand what's going on, let's take a break from substance and then we can see what's coming up for you.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see if the medications that you've been on are actually working better.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's um it's definitely part of the package.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: It can sometimes be a bit um sometimes the support system wants to see the issue as either mental health or addiction.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it would be nice if it were quite that binary, but it's not.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's very, you know, co-occurring, comorbid, concurrent.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's happening together, plus depending on the full, we understand that the brain is still developing till at least 25.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: If substances have been evolved, that that um development is going to be interrupted and impacted.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: So they what's their developmental trajectory, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Have they um been using since they were adolescents, which which is going to be of greater impact and longer term impact um to their to their brain development, to their brain function.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: So there's there's these are all important things to kind of consider and not you know, not to jump to any big conclusions or diagnoses.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not a diagnostician, but uh I love the idea that we it's not the diagnosis that we need to really look at.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's the response to the diagnosis, like how are we treating it?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: How are we uh how are we understanding what's going on, and how are we, you know, allowing for what's going on and how are we taking care of ourselves so that we're not letting this take over the family or take over the energy of the family or the balance of power or you know, well, there's a lot of excuse making around he has anxiety and depression.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and he's an adult, and those are his responsibilities now.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: So, what is he doing to take responsibility for those?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And what are you doing to take responsibility for helping him launch and thrive?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that doesn't become an excuse that we don't ask anything of an individual who is probably more capable than they've they've been treated for a number of factors.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Many parents come to me and it feels like they're being held hostage by these behaviors and symptoms.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: And they're being made to buy into a reality that they feel very powerless to change.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll help them understand that actually it's their house and they're paying the mortgage and they're paying for the Wi-Fi and they're paying for the video games and they're paying for the food and maybe the education or insuring a car.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: So they have a lot more power and ability to contribute to conditions that create change without saying, I'm trying to fix you, I'm trying to change you, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's very nuanced, it's very counterintuitive, because you have to be loving and yet you have to be firm with some boundaries and limits that that enable change of behavior to happen that maybe otherwise wouldn't.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe it's not problematic use, but if your daughter is left to their own devices using cannabis and not working and not in school and not launching, that can if that goes on for a period of time, it's gonna be a lot harder to change.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I do have parents call where they're 40 and 45, and this has been going on for, and that those are really hard situations to unpack.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you don't have to, there's there's no like, if I don't address it today, I'm gonna have a 45-year-old in the basement.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: But but you don't want that end, and that's where talking to other parents who have been there through parent-peer support groups or through you know, um codependency groups or through Al-Anon or Naranon can be super helpful and supportive because you A, you don't want it to get there, but you're gonna learn, you're gonna hear what other folks did and what was helpful and what wasn't helpful.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you touched on boundaries, and I was saving that for a little bit, but let's talk about that.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: What are the boundaries that parents can set that they can, the limits that they can put because they feel very, very powerless when it comes to that?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: Very powerless, yes.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: So so helping them understand where they do have some power.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: And there is a lot of power in the loving relationship that they have and the in the connection that they have with their with their adult child.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: So um don't ever underestimate that.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, particularly if they're in your home, they are close to you, and maybe they're there because they don't have other options at the moment, but they're still there.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so it again, it's that kind of tightrope of being loving, being staying connected, and and asking for healthy limits.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, look, the household shuts down at a certain time.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: Can we talk about when, you know, when is it, when are you prepared to shut down?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because actually we're gonna turn the internet off because no one's using it at night.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, often there's this reverse um sleep schedule that that young adults can have.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: So if the rest of the household is running and if they don't have a job that happens at nighttime, why are they up all night?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so maybe that's a condition that you want to create some influence over.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: And again, you're not trying to control, you're trying to influence that.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Why are they getting this special treatment that they're up all night and perhaps keeping other people up at night?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's we want to eliminate where they're being treated sort of specially or with kit gloves or tippy-toed around.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Anytime you feel that you're walking on eggshells, there something's not right with that.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: So why looking at your own behavior and why are you not addressing it?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and coaching parents on scripts and how to have these conversations about a healthy limit.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it's their house.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: So they have, and if it's not their house, if they're helping to support outside of the home, there's still levers of influence that parents have a connection to.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they're um paying for education, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Or maybe they're helping with student loans.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: So there's always these areas of influence that if you can have a rational chat with them, great.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: If you can't, then it has to be a little bit more like look, something's gonna change, not immediately, not tomorrow, but we'd like you to go and talk to somebody to get an idea of how you're gonna respond to this change.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: And and the change is gonna happen in in three months.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: So in the first month, we'd like you to talk to somebody in the second month, have a little bit of a plan of how you're gonna respond.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's a moving out plan, maybe it's a getting a job plan, maybe it's a stopping substance use plan that impacts all of all of that as well.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you get to, you know, you you establish a plan and then present it back to us and we'll kind of negotiate from there.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: If it's gotten to a bit more of like push comes to shove, then yes, things have to be a little a little more um line in the sand.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: But it can also happen slowly.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe you stop driving them to work, maybe you stop providing them with internet and they have to pay for it themselves.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you start to just take a little bit of of the response, give them responsibility back because often, and so this is what we'll do together.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: We'll kind of establish what you're supporting, what you're not, where do you feel like you could make some changes?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, again, I don't tell them what to do.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: I don't control them.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: I ask them where they might be willing to make a bit of a change.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't have to be this parents will often go to, I'm never gonna kick them out of the house.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, who said anything about that yet?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and actually the way I see it is if you're not prepared to live under the rules and the family values of the household, you're choosing to not be here.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: We're not kicking you out, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: You're choosing to not be a part of the framework that's here.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: And every family has that framework, it's just not always conscious until you start flushing this out.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Parents' peace of mind is for me the most important thing.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm working with them.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: So trying to trying to let their peace of let help them understand that their peace of mind can't be conditional on, well, when my kids stop smoking weed, I'll be happy.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna start worrying about myself when they do this.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's way too conditional.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we can't put off our own happiness and our own peace, um, waiting for someone else to do kind of what we want.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you wrote a book?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's wrong with my teen?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the corner there.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: I should say corner.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us about it.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us about so during the pandemic, I started taking writing courses to have something to do.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: And my practice moved online.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I initially I was looking at writing a bit more about my recovery story, and then after a while of of taking courses and working with coaches and uh the idea of writing what I do for a living um and how I help people and how what my process is, uh what I decided that was going to be a good idea, and it was something like another school shooting, and I thought I can't control that.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: But what I can do is document what works in the 20 years I've been working with families, what young people have been telling me works, all their secrets, and they tell me a lot because I'm not their parent.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: And parents tell me a lot too, and seeing the the anxiety, the parents.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought this is something I can contribute to the world.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's not well, I at first I thought it's not gonna be that hard.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: I I banged out an outline of all the chapters, boundaries, enabling the brain, uh, all of the steps that we kind of go through when we're working with folks and families, boundaries.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh, but that those nuances too, that it's very counterintuitive that you have to let go in order to let them kind of thrive or let them fail their way forward.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it trying to explain those things.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's full of case scenarios, it's really a guide to meet parents where they're at.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's quite simply framed.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: There are questions for reflection, there are um summaries at the end of every chapter, there's some additional uh tools on my website.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I really wanted it to be a tool, tool filled and script filled as well, because that's what I struggle with in my relationships with people, are um even my clients, like setting, I have to set boundaries with clients.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: They don't show up or they're late or they don't pay.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I have to go through all that with people too, and it's not easy stuff.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I I've always benefited from scripts of um, and a lot of parents will will struggle with having the right words.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because they're used to this kind of dancing around or beating around the bush or walking on eggshells, as they'll say, right?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious why you why you called it my with my teen.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why, why, what's wrong with my kid?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, right?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: What's wrong with my kid?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: What's well that that could that's a good, that's a good, uh, that's a good title too.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't think about that one.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it and I think I it's a like young adult who's living at home with mental health, you know, smoking weed and failing to launch, uh, didn't didn't fit on the on the cover, right?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Or the parent with their uh struggles too, like I'm not sleeping at night and I'm full of anxiety and I'm full of guilt.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: And did I do something to, you know, so you had to um we had to come up with a title, but the again the reality is I work with young people and some have been in my practice for since they were teens and they're now young adults.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Some are full adults with their own families now, and we're still in, we're still in touch because they they um sometimes they'll come back for a little bit of a check-in or tune-up or something, and and uh I love that.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: And parents too, they'll come back for another child that they're working with, sometimes uh work with families, you know, uh cousins and aunts and uncles, because there's this still again this extended system, and they know that I understand this little parts of the system, so it's easier for me to get that history.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the title is um But it's not restricted to teens.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely not.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: No, in fact, younger parents could read it too, just to I talk a lot about having these conversations about you know, cell phones, a big one right now, having a smartphone and what age and things like that.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what age are you gonna talk about?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because you you gotta be realistic.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: When you hand a when you hand a young person a this is a computer, this is uh so so we're basically sending them out in the world with predators, we're sending them out in the world with people that are gonna try to hack their financial information.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: You're having them consent to things that as children they can't really even consent to, but as soon as they open Google, they've consented, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of factors with with these devices that we we put in the hands of children, and then say, you know, go go to bed and take your take your access to predators and your access to hackers and your access to drugs, drug menus delivered to you on Snapchat every seven minutes or whatever the stat is, and uh, you know, have a good night's sleep and expect that they're not gonna, or video gaming and or all of that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: So these are these are real real issues.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I think I think any age can benefit from understanding how to better communicate with your with your child, with your kid, where you know, at whatever age.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in your book, you write about the importance of understanding what's underneath the behavior, so to say, we're below the surface, so to speak.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you elaborate on that?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: So again, the the behaviors tell us a story, right?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Parents have a gut feel when things are off.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: So responding to that, trusting your gut, whatever the signs you're seeing, are they normal for your young person or are they abnormal?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think another big myth out there is that, you know, not my kid, like we're a good family, we talk about things, or you know, this is not going to happen to us.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like addiction does not discriminate.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, sure, there's genetic histories, there are factors, but addiction and mental health disorders do not discriminate.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes they skip generations, sometimes there's so don't don't believe that it won't happen to you.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that not in a scary kind of uh ominous way, but just be be open, keep an open mind that maybe they're struggling more than they're saying and talking to them about their mental health.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you touched on this earlier, and I kind of want to go back to it.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: You said something about connection, and I love that.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you mentioned how important connection is because the problem is that parents are feeling very disconnected from their kids.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't know how to make that connection.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So what and when things are really feeling scary and out of control for them, what suggestions can you make to parents to start re-establishing a connection again?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: Anything that they can do to connect doesn't mean that it's going to be responded to um immediately.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: But we we have this technology.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: So text them.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: If they're not answering you, that's fine.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Don't ask them an ask them a yes or no question.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Just maybe make a statement like thinking about you, wondering how your day was, haven't seen you emerge yet.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm around.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here if you want to chat.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here if you want to go for ice cream, I'm here if you want to walk the dog.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it doesn't always have to be talking about the problem, right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, and if you do talk about the problem or whatever, um fine, then the next conversation or opportunity for connection could be very light and benign.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um something funny, share a meme or a joke or something lighthearted, and expect that you're gonna get the rebuff.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Expect that they're gonna, you know, roll their eyes.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's just the stage that they're at.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay, but just keep doing it.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like we cannot take this stuff personally if um if they're in a fit or if they're in a mood or if they're not talking to you, like just uh you know, you know, validate your own attempts to try.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean that every time you try to connect, it has to be successful.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Just um just keep trying.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that that's not so easy because parents will take it personally.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh shit.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: And they will feel bad.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh they know their kid best and you know, bring them their favorite food.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: But um if again, if you're thinking about them or see something, also tell them how your day is.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't all have to be these how was your day, how was school, not an open-ended question.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: Ask them open-ended questions.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: I've got a list in my material, like open-ended questions.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about that for a second because you do provide samples and scripts and letters.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: So for parents who really have trouble with those conversations, they really they do.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: They that there's a point where every parent says, I don't know what to say anymore.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I love the fact that you actually offer these scripts in your book.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: But can you share a few of those phrases and especially the ones that reduce defensiveness or that encourage open dialogue?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so uh it's essential to use an I statement rather than as soon as we say you, there's like this sense of the fingers pointing at them.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: So take that finger and point it back to yourself and share something.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: I have noticed tell me if I'm right or wrong.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: You seem sad these days.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I just wanted to acknowledge that.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Let you know that I'm here.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like really simple.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and if they respond to that, great, then maybe you add a bit more.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: But say less and listen more.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: So listen and silent have the exact same letters in them.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Be silent, restrain your your judgment.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that takes some time to like slow down what's going on in our head.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: My my thoughts and my mouth are like on a high impulse.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: I often speak what what I'm thinking immediately.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: So slow that down and really actively listen.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about you lecturing, it's not about you've already parented them the essentials.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: You have already given them the essentials.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: So back off from the needing to educate them, needing to tell them how they need to do this.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's up to them to fail their way forward.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's up to them to make their mistakes, trust them to make the mistakes and learn.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: And because they will feel that you don't feel they're capable.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: They will sense that.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: They don't have the language yet, maybe, particularly if they're they're struggling, to to understand or to say that, you know, when you do that for me, it makes me feel like I don't have a capability to do it for myself and that you don't believe in me.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes me feel really bad about myself.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they don't have that language, but they will feel that you've done something for them that they can do for themselves.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then they also get used to that and it becomes somewhat of a learned helplessness.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: So the I statements is is not you're not creating, and it's not I think that you need to go and talk to a counselor.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's right, I've noticed or I'm worried.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's your my worry is not your concern, but but I want to bring this up because I um I notice that and I want to let you know that I'm here for you, and that I validate that it seems like you're struggling.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and anytime you want to talk further about it, I'm here.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: So the open-ended, not asking them yes or no questions, too.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: So the I statement, we statement, your dad and I, your mom and I, we, um, your siblings and I, uh, you don't all have to be on the same page, but you all care and you're all concerned.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's really what matters.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: Not splicing who's who's, you know, people have different approaches, that's okay, but showing that you're unified.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then the um, yeah, like really a softness in tone.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um not not confronting them ever really.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: You're approaching them.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: So don't I don't suggest approaching them on their sp in their space.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: Don't I a lot of young people will tell me that they're kind of they're getting uh chased around the house by the parent.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: And they they just need to be left alone.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe don't have words for that, but their feet are speaking for them because they're kind of run-walking around the house trying to get away from the parents.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: So don't don't go into their room, that's their their room.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: But if they don't come out of their room, that's problematic.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: You could stand on the door frame and say, I need I need you to come out because there's a couple of things I I want to express to you for you to just listen to.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's interesting that you say not to go into their room because the parents that I talk to, that's the only place where their kids are.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: So is the door closed all the time?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's doors closed, they're there 24-7, they're living life in a in a in a silo, and they want to be left alone.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we're at different stage here.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're at that, this has been going on for a long time.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't want the help.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very different situation.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: They they want their parents to leave them alone, and they have left them alone for a long enough period of time where they're seeing left to yourself to your own devices, you're not actually doing anything with your life.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to help you.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I listen to your statements and I'm sort of smiling because you know, parents have asked me, how do I say it?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: How do I start the conversation?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: How do I phrase the boundaries?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all about, like you said, it's I've I've written 25 boundaries setting statements for parents.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: 25.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I just kept going.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uncomfortable with this, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't watch this anymore.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love you too much to watch you do this anymore.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uncomfortable.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: How can we move forward?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do to help you?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And all these things, because it's true.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Everything you're saying is true.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot keep telling them what to do.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: They know what they they know they're not happy.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I know that they're not happy in those rooms.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: They, when you even say, like, let's go for an ice cream, they don't even know what to do anymore outside of the outside of their bedroom.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's become, you know, in a post-COVID world, it's become their their only place they go and do.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they've lost connection and community and everything.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really in an epidemic with these kids that are just hunger down thinking, I'll just stay here until you die.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that sounds terribly morbid.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's at that point, though, they've lost all hope.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: They have no idea what to do.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm trying to give parents the confidence, the empowerment, the courage to say, this is not working anymore.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not okay.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: In this house, doors closed, gaming in your room.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like what would happen if we pulled the plug on on the Wi-Fi at 11 o'clock at night?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: What would happen if we said, you know what, your console doesn't leave?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I want your console outside your bedroom door at midnight.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want, you know, lock your phone.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like start helping these kids because this has become such a spiraling lifestyle that they're like in a vortex of, I don't even know how to get out.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I love that you've talked about connection.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you've talked about, you know, scripts that you can help parents.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I I we're really in a in a bind here.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't like right.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just like may maybe that's where if you get them when they're early at the early stages, then doesn't get to that point.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't get to that point.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: But we're too I'm talking about realistically, yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: People that you and I are working with, they're at that point.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: They're at that crisis, they're in the family crisis.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: And the whole family's being impacted by it because maybe siblings have an opinion on that.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: And what, you know, why aren't you guys doing something about it?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I think it's really important to realize that you're not helping them by avoiding by buying into their avoidance and letting them deteriorate.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: So they can die under your, they can die in that room too.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, yeah.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's what they should be afraid of.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they're going to be harming themselves outside of the house, that what's happening inside the house is actually a dire also is direct.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sl erosion of their psyche, of their soul, of their life.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so standing outside that door is not for me, that's not enough.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's opening the door, opening the blinds, shutting down, shutting.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not, again, to your point back in the beginning, you said not overnight.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do these things to them overnight, but to to uh to perpetuate it by doing nothing is where I see the the biggest, the biggest crime.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I want parents to not feel so helpless.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: I know these kids want their parents to knock on that door and and tell me what I can do to start changing my life around.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Give me some give me some restriction.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: I know they they resist it at first, but I believe that but they need it.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: They need it, yeah.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll respond to it with you know, in baby steps.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and instead of saying, like you said something earlier, you said bring them their favorite fruit.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, how about you come out of the room and make us dinner?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'll leave you alone.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: You whatever you want to make us, do you know what I love, what you love, we'll eat the same thing, but you make dinner for us.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're capable because you know how to feed yourself, but I feel like I feel like you making that that tonight it's on you.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: You make us dinner.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that's a great idea.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that could be, you know, communicated by uh um note slid under the door, or you know, lucky, you know, we're not comfortable with uh the door closing behavior.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: So just a week from Friday, the door's coming off.
• 47:24
  unknown: Right.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, right, you know, the internet's being um, we're not comfortable contributing to to this, what we're seeing.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: So if if you want to set up your own system, you know, that's out of out of your pocket or whatever, but we're not comfortable.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: We don't feel that it's um something that we can we can condone anymore because it doesn't make us feel like we're we're being good parents, or you could say, I well, we we've messed up whatever we've done to contribute to this, we've let it go on too far.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: We're yes, we're we're gonna own that piece.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: And like, what what are you gonna do?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: We need you to do something different.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you decide what, but and you have to give these these points deadlines.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we will be following up and then follow up, right?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: Just like a boundary.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: Don't say, don't set a limit and then not follow through.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, again, boundaries aren't about controlling other people, they're about like, we're no longer comfortable with this.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: So we're gonna start making changes.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna start asking more of you because we can't contribute to this.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: We want to contribute to a condition that changes and we're not.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, like the jig is up, we're gonna change, you're gonna change.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't have to be again dramatic.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: It could be that make dinner once a week and uh and slowly start to ask more responsibility of them, maybe contribute more to the bills, maybe um, yeah, maybe the console's coming out, whatever they're doing, and like you you can't do nothing for 24 hours a day.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: So they're doing something, yeah, or they're online or they're using cannabis or they're talking to friends, like they're doing something.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: So um, the less you can you can um feed that whatever it is that they're spending their time doing, yeah.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and the more responsibility you can give them.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's how the world works.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: So don't protect them from the way the world works, and that's really what you're doing.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're you're protecting them from the universe.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, real world would ask more of them.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: So why aren't you?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I read a quote in from an article that you um from you that really spoke to me.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to I want to share it with our listener.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: You say start where your heart breaks.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can you elaborate on that?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because so many parents are struggling, and I feel like it would really speak to them.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Start where your heart breaks.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, where you're really, where you're really, really uh struggling.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: So and and it might it might be for the parent, it might be their feelings of of um responsibility, guilt or shame.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: They could start there with owning a little bit.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm feeling like a really bad parent.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: And again, that's not that's not on you, but I know as a parent trying to do better that I've got to change something.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I know it's gonna be uncomfortable for you, but I can't take responsibility for that.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: I need to let you take responsibility for your life a bit more.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really hard for me to do, but I'm gonna try.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I'm talking to Sherry.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I'm talking to Susan to get some.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know how many times I'll be I'll have a call with a parent and they're outside in their car.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, God, I know.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because they don't want their kid to know that they're talking to somebody, or also the kid might come in and interrupt, so they don't have a private space in their home.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what is wrong with this picture?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like the everything is upside down, everything is topsy turvy.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I know that actually tells me a lot about what's going on in that family just from that example.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Susan, I had a parenting course going on last month and they were in their car.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love these parents.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if they're listening, I love them so much.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: But they're so afraid.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: And they're probably listening from the car.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I said to them, you need to tell them that you're speaking to somebody.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: You need to tell them that you're taking a course.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: They need to know that you're making this effort.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're taking responsibility for your actions, for the lack of, for not getting involved more.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're taking ownership so they can too.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's hard.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: They have, they are literally the expression taught.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're walking around, they're afraid to speak in front of them.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: But they shouldn't be.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is a good thing.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is a good thing that we're doing here.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: This is uh this is one of those nuanced shifts that parents will start to make.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I love it when I'm working with with families and and they'll come to me one week and I can just tell that something has shifted.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, what did you do this week?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like what?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: Somehow the penny has dropped, and they're starting their language they're using is different, or they had tell me about a conversation they had with their kid, and it's just like I can sense this shift.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe they've, you know, I don't know, something is happening.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: Something.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: The door is opening.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's this light is shining through it.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know exactly what it's like.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's just terrific to feel that awareness.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and so a lot of what we do is education around like raising that awareness that empowering parents, that there are things that they can try and do.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not up to me to kind of, you know, solution for them because God knows they're trying to solution for their kid.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: And this, how how well is that going?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: But we'll we'll sort of narrow things down and I'll I'll elicit from them what the solutions are for them.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: They'll tell me, but I have to really probe them because they want me to tell them what to do.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: But the chances are nine out of ten things I'll say, they'll like that's not gonna work.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: So the same with my client, clients.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I've tried that, I've done that.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: I tried that boundaries thing.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so uh, but they you know, we approach it from a different, a different way.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes they do want the script.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll work on that together.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'll say, Text me what you come up with, and let's massage it a bit.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because words do really matter.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: 100% language matters, um labels matter, diagnoses being tossed around matter.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, those things, those things can be um important.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so start where your heart is breaking and also start doing for yourself, like talking to someone, going to sleep at night, closing, telling them, uh, my phone is gonna be turned off at such and such a time.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: So if you need me, let me know before that time.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Just trying to get some of that peace and serenity back uh in any way that you can.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: In any way that is gonna, you know, the first night you might not sleep very well, but the next night you might.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then if they call you before that time on the third night, boy, you've really communicated to them, haven't you?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then you're probably gonna sleep because they got to you before you shut your phone down.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: And you know that they've heard your message.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: They're not gonna believe you at first because they're not used to you putting yourself first.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: So you really have to demonstrate in small ways that you, you know, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: All of this, all of this that you're saying is uh to it also contributes to the modeling aspect.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, totally, right?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're starting to take care of yourself again instead of just like in this constant state of anxiety and fear and worry, and you're just you've lost yourself, you've cut yourself off from people because you just feel like you have to be there all the time.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: And all then you just turn around when they say, you know what?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I suggest this to parents, what do you love to do?
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: When was the last time you did what you love to do?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're modeling that.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: So go out and do something that you love to do.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: Your mood will change, you'll come into the house, you'll turn the music on, have a happier home.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: Next thing you know, they're peeking out, going, What are you doing?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing some yoga, I'm working, and like I'm whatever it is, but like you self-care is not just for yourself, it it's also for your young adults to see that you're actually and sometimes I sell it that way because they're so unprepared to do something that's just good for them because they're so wrapped up in their kid at this time of life.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so, well, actually, it might have a little bit of a ripple effect.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I know I'll it's not guaranteed, but you might actually be changing them if you make a change for yourself.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that will and that's very true.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like there is that ripple effect and that butterfly effect when we start to make a change because the system will change a little bit.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna make your lunches anymore.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, good, stop doing that, or I'm gonna, yeah.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: Stop doing that right now.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's ridiculous.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're not gonna make your breakfast and leave it outside your door, right?
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, stop making it quite so easy for them, and also take some of your time back and take some of your um yeah, um, and don't buy into this notion that you're only as happy as your most miserable child, because that really just that just like that's so not true.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be happy and you have to model seeking your own happiness.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and if that's a new shift, yes, it's gonna be strange for you, it's gonna be strange for your kid, but it's it's actually you're teaching them that they need to, we all need to come first.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: We all need to look after ourselves in order to be good care um caregivers, good wives, good sisters, good moms, good counselors.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: I have to take care of myself.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I model that.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: I don't pretend it just all comes naturally.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well, who who is that gonna benefit?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, and also, you know, stop complaining so much.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're sitting here complaining about work and the economy and the price of this and the price of that in the meantime, and then you want to know why your kid doesn't want to go get a job because what's the point?
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's so expensive.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, even how you speak about what's going on in the world, listen to yourself because you're you're not encouraging them to want to go out and and live in the world.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: If the world is such a terrible place to be, meanwhile, you're going out every day, you're working, you're living, you're doing what you have to do.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so don't make it sound like everything is just doom and gloom.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so uh there's something else that you said in another article, probably the same, but I I really want to say it because it is powerful.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's no one's fault that they have mental illness, but it is their responsibility to manage it.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about that responsibility because many parents listening feel helpless and are desperate for advice because, and I for those who are just listening and not watching, air quotes, they're dealing with an adult at home and they feel that they can't help them.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you what suggestions do you do you say to a parent in that situation?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, to really understand what that means, that it's not, you know, they're not a bad kid.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and to to validate the kid that they're not bad.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_03: They had they're having some experiences of substance use disorder, they're having some experiences of depression, anxiety, ADHD, trauma, whatever the things are.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that is their responsibility, as much as if they had diabetes, we wouldn't be taking their medication for them.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: We'd be allowing them to use the tools that have been provided to them by their healthcare practitioner to manage this condition, which is theirs to manage.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: So if they're not managing it, and if that's who I was gonna ask you, allowing that to happen, then you're not contributing to their taking care of their condition or illness or disease either.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you do in that situation?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: A parent says, I know, you know, and I've I have spoken to parents who like will put the medication out.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: They'll put it like right there where they can take it.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, okay, but you don't have to do that.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if I if they they feel that if they don't give them the medication, they won't take it.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: These kids are it's they're this is really a tough situation because what do you do in a situation where the kid does not want to take responsibility for taking for this quote for managing their mental health and the parent doesn't know what to do?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: Easy for them to not do it.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, something something that's important like that medication, I might not start there, but I might start with uh, you know, that's uh last time you were in hospital, this is what the uh treatment plan recommended was.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_03: We need you to start following that.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: We're not doctors.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is what was recommended, medication, counseling, whatever, or come back and say, right?
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like take some ownership over you were hospitalized, you want to, you know, you needed to be hospitalized.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, like all we're suggesting is that you follow through with the plan that was recommended to you.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: If you have a problem with that, go find another doctor and get a different plan.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, we're not comfortable with you living here, not following the conditions of that plan.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: And the same goes for treatment.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: When they go to treatment, if they go to an inpatient or outpatient, there are recommendations that come from that treatment center.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if they're not following those recommendations when they come home, they're likely going to return to use or return to behavior.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: So just like if they're not taking their diabetes medication, they're gonna have going to go into some kind of diabetic shock.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it's not rocket science here.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_03: So if there have been recommendations been made, oh, I don't like what they said.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, who asked you to like it?
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's not, I don't like having Crohn's disease.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: There's certain things that I need to do to manage it.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: And otherwise I suffer the consequences.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: If I was still living at home, everybody else would be suffering those consequences too.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: So it it's making those small changes to um to ensure that they're they are acknowledging that they have some responsibility here, and you're not telling them to do that.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: The doctor who you took them to the hospital and they were in there told them to do that.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: So again, like just getting really clear on what um what's their part to do, and what are you protecting or what are you um rescuing them from following through with?
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: And and so maybe they can't live in your house because you're not comfortable to watch them not take responsibility.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: So then maybe you work on a plan where they're gonna be somewhere on a medical leave or on the you know, supplement that can help their income and live somewhere where they can afford to not take responsibility for their condition.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't always mean they're gonna be homeless living under a bridge.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's lots of steps in between there.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_03: But does it mean that they have to live in an all expenses?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like often I'll say to parents, I want to come live at your house, right?
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's a concierge and there's a parking and there's uh everything room and board covered.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't have to work, I don't have to go to school, like I'll come and live there.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: Or maybe you guys should move out since it's unmanageable and let them fend for themselves.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: I had a family with three three kids who were three adult children living in the home, and it was chaos.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, well, why don't you guys move out?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: Go rent a place, and they start started to take some trips and they started to shift things and stopped trying to fix the one the one child that had mental health issues.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: So there's you just gotta try some different things and see how you sleep at night, right?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: And talk to somebody who you can really get the get the the truth from to understand that maybe maybe the shift of of responsibility and power and anxiety in the household has been off balance and that you're holding way too much of that anxiety, responsibility, um, you know, and they're they're kind of holding you.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to change, so don't make it easy for them not to want to change.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't have to be comfortable.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_03: They could not want to do everything that they don't want to do, but you don't have to make it easy for them to do that, to be in that position.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, it's tough, but but starting somewhere, whether it's the door coming off the hinges or the internet or the console being, you know, in the basement or in a family zone.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: So they have to come out, whatever it is, um, start to or have them pay for some things.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: Running out of money is a pretty good motivator.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, a lot of these kids aren't working, Susan.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about running around, they're not even working, they're just right.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very sometimes it's so easy for us to see because we're not in so close to it.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: Parents will say, you know, I can't get them off their phone, or I can't get them off the internet.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, who's paying for that?
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it's I'm not there to shame again.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I I could I want to hug them all because I know that they're struggling, but that like stop paying for that stuff.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: Get them off the family phone.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: Stop contributing to the fo to the problem that you're you're complaining about, right?
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: So start contributing to a change that you want to see.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, we help them navigate that, right?
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because they they can't see that necessarily.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: They can and they're often in their trauma brain, they're not, they're blocked off, they're in crisis mode, they've neglected their sleep, their self-care.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_03: So they're not firing on all cylinders either.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we do help need to help, you know, we're willing to help them, yeah, to see things from our perspective, and other parents help them see it.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's again why the other parents are key in your family groups and your and your parent groups to talk about and laugh about some of this too.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's kind of ridiculous at times.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: So we gotta we gotta shake it off and and take care of what we can, change what we can.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's always something that can change.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_03: Always.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: Always, always.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_03: And and start small so it's not this radical, like you're out by next Friday.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you're out of the house.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's but even the wording, I'm not comfortable watching you not take your medication.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is like it's like I I can no longer give you permission by me not doing anything about this.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just I can't watch this anymore.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love you too much to let you throw your life away.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is enough of like saying a parent saying, I can't do this anymore.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not gonna be around.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_03: No, exactly.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: And my job is to prepare you for life outside of this, for life, and for life on life's terms, not life on the terms that I create for you, which make it super easy to neglect what you're responsible for.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's not, that's not life.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and we see that with kids that have um endowments or trusts or or have a lot of material things, is they're um they're not asked to participate in the world in the same way.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's uh it that becomes a clinical issue too.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: How about one parent supporting supporting the uh the adult child and the other and the other parents not supporting financially?
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a whole other conversation, which we don't have time for.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it's there's there's a lot of complex situations and a lot of easy buttons to press.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that easy, yes, that's true.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're here uh helping, ready to, you know, ready to give them all the tools if they want us.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm gonna leave your you know, your uh contact information, your book, What's Wrong with My Teen, is available.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's right there.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love that that you put it out there, but it'll be in the show notes.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just for teens.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: I always say this to parents you think you have a 20-something or 30-something year old, but they're mentally and emotionally and developmentally, they're they're in the teens still.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: They got stuck there.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: So teens is just a number.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: Age is just a number, but I do love leaving on a positive note.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope I I don't know if there are too many in this in this uh episode, but what message do you have for parents who are living with this every day?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's there is help, there is support for parents, and that recovery is always possible.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I'm the example of that.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: 27 years ago, I was um in in real dire straits and didn't want to, I didn't have a will to live.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh been able to turn that around and and help others and be passionate about carrying a message of recovery is possible.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that there's always hope.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think I should have called this podcast hope, because I think I I pretty much leave every episode with hope.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: But we that's I mean, that's it.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hope and effort and not giving up.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not yeah, not thinking.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_03: You try and things you're gonna make mistakes.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_03: I make mistakes all the time.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, I can just say, uh sorry, I I was wrong.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right, this makes me that.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this parenting thing is it's there's no uh, it's really hard.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean about progress and and and progress, you know, gets you a little bit closer to more progress.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_03: Practice makes progress.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah, there's always hope and find hopeful people that carry a message of hope to um to you because they need that.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_03: Parents need to scaffold themselves up.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_03: They they go through an awful lot, they're under a lot of stress and pressure.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_03: So to ignore, I want to acknowledge that and acknowledge the hard work that parents and caregivers do.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: Your recovery and what you've done for so many is honestly incredibly inspiring.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is a much needed topic, and I'm truly grateful that we had this talk.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, Susan, you are welcome back anytime.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks for making it happen.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be in touch.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.