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Michelle Van Loon on Downsizing Faith to What Matters Most · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
0:49
Michelle Van Loon. Michelle's writing is shaped by
0:52
her deeply rooted faith in Christ, secular Jewish
0:56
heritage, spiritual hunger, and her storytellers
0:59
sensibilities. She has been a regular contributor
1:02
to Christianity Today magazine and has articles at
1:06
a number of other digital sites. Her eight books
1:09
include her newest, Downsizing Letting Go of
1:13
Evangelicalism's Non Essentials. A reminder,
1:17
before we start today's conversation, please take
1:20
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
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review and share Future Christian with a friend.
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Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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1:52
>> Loren: Hey friends, this is Loren Richmond. Before we
1:55
dive in, a quick note. Due to some tech issues
1:58
during recording, we had to splice a few parts of
2:01
this interview together. You might notice a few
2:04
clunky transitions here and there and we did our
2:07
best to smooth things out, but we felt that this
2:09
conversation with Michelle was too important not
2:12
to share. So thanks for your grace as you listen
2:15
in. Hello and welcome to the Future Christian
2:26
Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. Today I am
2:29
pleased to be joined by Michelle Van Loon. Hello.
2:31
Welcome to the show.
2:33
>> Michelle: Hey, I'm so glad to be with you. Thanks.
2:36
>> Loren: Yeah, absolutely looking forward to having this
2:39
conversation. Anything else you want listeners to
2:41
know about you?
2:42
>> Michelle: I think we're all going to hear plenty as our
2:46
conversation continues. So let's jump in.
2:49
>> Loren: Let's do it. You know, my previous guest, or
2:54
excuse me, Martha, my co host had with a previous
2:57
guest, ah, Joel Kidd, a similar kind of
3:01
conversation like this where much of her book
3:04
revolved around her, her story. So I don't know if
3:08
you want to. Let's just perhaps let's uh, jump
3:11
right in, I suppose, or I suppose.
3:13
First, let me ask this. Since this is a question
3:15
related or unrelated, somewhat, uh, spiritual
3:18
practices, any kind of spiritual practices or
3:20
disciplines you find meaningful or you. Or you're
3:23
willing to share.
3:24
>> Michelle: Yeah, I really appreciate this question. Things
3:29
that have sustained me, um, which I guess
3:32
translates to meaningful, um, over the 50 years
3:38
that I've been a, uh, Jesus follower. Um, Bible
3:43
reading, for sure. Um, whether anything is amazing
3:51
or new or whether it's just the putting one foot
3:55
in front of the other and continuing to journey in
3:59
the company of scripture and its author. That has
4:03
been, um, really foundational through all of the
4:10
bits of my story and all of the peaks and valleys.
4:14
Um, I appreciate being able to visit every month
4:19
with a spiritual director who just kind of
4:23
companions me, um, right where I am without
4:29
judgment, but with just a really intentional set
4:34
of listening ears that sometimes is kind of all I
4:41
need to be able to hear God more clearly.
4:43
>> Loren: Well, Michelle is the author of the book
4:46
Downsizing Letting Go of Evangelicalism's Non
4:50
Essentials, which I guess as we're recording, this
4:54
has been out three days.
4:55
>> Michelle: Yes.
4:55
>> Loren: So congratulations on that.
4:57
>> Michelle: A whole three days. Yeah. Thank you very much.
5:00
>> Loren: Yeah. Now this is. How many books is this for you?
5:03
This is few. Right.
5:05
>> Michelle: This is number eight, which really says more about
5:10
the fact that I'm a very loquacious person. I have
5:15
lots of words in me, so.
5:17
>> Loren: Well, that is. I mean.
5:18
>> Michelle: I, uh.
5:18
>> Loren: Mean, you said it. Loquacious. That is. You do
5:22
have lots of words in you, so. Well, I'm looking
5:26
forward to having this conversation about this
5:27
book. And I think it was most interesting to me as
5:30
it. As I read it, is that the book functions like
5:34
a memoir and a journey from the beginning of the
5:37
evangelical movement to present day. Like, it was
5:40
almost like a history of sorts. And I wondered,
5:42
like, was that intentional? I really appreciate
5:44
that.
5:47
>> Michelle: It. It was intentional. It's not a, uh, true
5:50
memoir because any memoir will not have 200 plus
5:55
footnotes. Um, it also speaks to the fact that in
6:01
addition to my many words, I am also, um, a
6:05
voracious researcher, um, because I'm always
6:10
trying to make sense of my experience and our
6:14
experience, um, as human beings. And so, um, I use
6:20
my story as a framing device, but I also use it to
6:26
be able to introduce people to the various
6:29
evangelical isms, because there are lots of
6:34
different shadings within that big, messy
6:37
umbrella. And so, um, because I've been
6:42
everywhere, like Johnny Cash. I've been
6:44
everywhere, man. And, um, really have, so.
6:50
>> Loren: Well, why don't you share just a little bit about
6:52
that journey then, since we kind of teased it
6:54
already.
6:56
>> Michelle: Okay.
6:56
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:58
>> Michelle: Excuse me. I. My parents, who are both deceased,
7:04
were Jewish. I grew up in A fairly secular Jewish
7:08
household, um, kind of think Jerry Seinfeld's
7:13
parents and you would be pretty on the money. And
7:19
I was always a very spiritual, restless person,
7:26
um, even as a little kid and wanted to know God
7:30
and was very curious and hungry. And that
7:37
curiosity dovetailed with the tail end of the
7:40
Jesus movement. Um, in the early 70s, it was
7:45
popping all around. And, um, I had a friend who
7:50
came to school one day and told me that she had
7:55
become a Christian the night before. And I said to
7:58
her, but everybody here is a Christian except for,
8:02
like, us few Jewish kids that are sprinkled in the
8:05
mix. And she said, no, no, no, I, I started a new
8:10
relationship with God. All of that language that
8:12
goes with the Jesus movement, I had no idea what
8:16
she was talking about. But we continued to have
8:20
that conversation over the following months as I
8:25
wrestled with what I thought I knew about God from
8:29
my limited religious exposure and my own reading
8:35
of Bible stories as I, as a little kid matching it
8:39
with what she said. And we smoked a lot of weed
8:43
while we did this. And so I always tell people,
8:47
God's word never returns void. Um, and that
8:51
includes. That includes that. Which is not, I
8:55
don't think, a recognized evangelism technique.
8:58
But God met us there. Um, he meets us all kinds of
9:03
places. And so.
9:04
>> Loren: Michelle, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We might
9:06
have to put like an end.
9:07
>> Michelle: No worries.
9:07
>> Loren: We might have to put like a, you know, parental
9:09
advisory warning on this.
9:11
>> Michelle: I know, Yeah, I don't recommend this and you won't
9:16
learn it in seminary, but it's, um, nonetheless,
9:22
eventually I, I've wound my way to a conversation
9:27
with somebody who was not smoking weed, who was
9:30
older, who actually knew what he was talking
9:33
about, which my friend, is wonderful. She is. And
9:36
I saw her this week, as a matter of fact. We don't
9:39
live in the same state anymore, but she happened
9:41
to be in my area, and so it was fun to reconnect
9:45
with her. But, um, he said to me, in light of all
9:50
of your questions, I challenge you to start
9:54
reading in the New Testament. Read the Gospel of
9:56
John. And. And I did. And at the beginning of my
10:00
reading, I didn't believe and I didn't understand
10:06
why the God that I knew from my Jewish upbringing
10:10
had a son. And what does this talk about? The Holy
10:13
Spirit. It was all very mind blowing to me, but at
10:18
the end I knew, I believed. Uh, you know, there
10:21
was no Billy Graham moment, no organ playing, no
10:27
just as I am. All of those tropes of kind of mid
10:31
Century evangelicalism. Um, but here I was. But
10:37
the book starts, um, that we're talking about
10:41
downsizing, as that decision led to my parents
10:46
telling me, as long as you're living under a roof,
10:50
you cannot go to church. And they hoped they could
10:53
just starve this out. A fad like hula hoops and
10:58
blue eyeshadow and bell bottoms and all the. All
11:03
those things. And it. I had good sneaking skills,
11:09
so I still snuck to stuff. But most of my
11:13
formation in those first three years was reading
11:17
the Bible and learning what it said about church
11:21
and kind of gleaning, um, from other people's
11:26
experience and things that I would see on TV or
11:29
hear on Christian radio. And so, um, when I was
11:36
free to begin attending church, um, I was in for,
11:41
um, some surprises. It wasn't like I imagined. Um,
11:48
in some ways, there were some things that were
11:50
better because it was embodied relationships. And
11:54
in other ways, the book highlights lots of
12:00
excesses and wrong directions, uh, bad theology.
12:06
And it looks like I'm. I might be losing you.
12:09
>> Loren: No, you're still here. Just.
12:11
>> Michelle: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'll keep going. I'm getting a
12:14
message.
12:14
>> Loren: If you drop off, we'll go again.
12:19
>> Michelle: Okay. So that journey into evangelicalism led m me
12:28
to all kinds of different church settings. We
12:34
moved, um, quite a bit. I got married when I was
12:37
20. I'm still married. Um, I wouldn't necessarily
12:42
recommend everybody get married that young, but,
12:44
um, it's worked out pretty well. We've been
12:47
married for almost 46 years, um, which. We're both
12:53
pretty stubborn people. Which is.
12:55
>> Loren: Probably has something to do with.
12:59
>> Michelle: Might have a little something to do with it. Um,
13:04
but we've been everywhere from very, very
13:07
conservative, um, circles, Plymouth Brethren and
13:12
Bible Church, lots of rules, lots of behavior
13:17
codes, to very wild, charismatic circles, um,
13:23
which all of it has kind of morphed together to
13:28
feed what's kind of blown up in our current time,
13:34
um, into a pretty big and bad case of Christian
13:38
nationalism in a lot of those circles.
13:40
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think. I mean, I think one
13:45
thing that stands out from your story is there are
13:49
many who've. Who've deconstructed their way out of
13:54
evangelicalism, Christianity in the church. I
13:58
mean, in your book, you don't pull any punches.
14:00
Like you're not skipping around, you know, shining
14:05
over the challenges and the problems and the abuse
14:08
and the scandals within evangelicalism, which so
14:13
often is why people just wash their hands of it
14:16
and leave.
14:17
>> Michelle: Absolutely.
14:18
>> Loren: What has kept you in it?
14:22
>> Michelle: Um, I, you know, I should have a glib quick answer
14:29
for that question. Um, I actually think that those
14:35
first three years that I was a believer, uh, where
14:40
I was kind of on my own, really, there wasn't a
14:45
community around me. There was nobody kind of
14:48
telling me, read this or don't read that. I would
14:51
sneak to the Christian bookstore and I bought, um,
14:54
all manner of books, from very, very bad theology
14:58
to very, very good theology. And, um, I. God, God
15:05
met me there and he has continued to kind of hold
15:09
me. Do. Do I sign off on a lot of what I've
15:16
experienced and seen? No, no, no, no. Is garbage.
15:24
Um, a lot of it has, um, been deeply traumatic and
15:29
wounding to people. Um, and there's been a lot of
15:33
energy invested in building institutions, um, and
15:37
propping up people that, um, should have been
15:42
spent, you know, maybe a little more emphasis on
15:47
the words in the Sermon on the Mount and a little
15:51
less on, um, triumphalism and, um, you know,
15:56
winning.
15:57
So.
15:58
>> Loren: Okay, let me ask you a hard question then, as this
16:01
just front of mind, having just gone in the news
16:04
and kind of speaks to what you've already spoken
16:07
about. I think it was yesterday, the day before we
16:11
learned of the passing of James Dobson. And I
16:16
mean, I think it's hard to, in my estimation,
16:21
understate how much of an influence he was within
16:23
evangelicalism and really conservative fundamental
16:27
Christianity. M. Being in Colorado, you know, I
16:32
didn't live in Colorado Springs, but, uh, you
16:34
know, it was still. Even living north of him. It
16:38
was still kind of obvious what a magnetism focus
16:43
on the family had. You know, I'll be frank, like,
16:46
I'm not one to dance on someone's grave, but I
16:48
also want to speak somewhat forthright. So, I
16:53
mean, what do you think about do it? Uh, well, I'm
16:57
asking you. Like, I just think, like, you know, I
17:02
wrote a note just yesterday. I think it was on
17:03
substack notes about like, you know, I think he
17:06
took himself probably too seriously, as perhaps I
17:09
am want to do. And I think he did not recognize
17:14
the repercussions of everything he.
17:17
>> Michelle: He said.
17:18
>> Loren: So, um, what do you have to add to that?
17:21
>> Michelle: Well, he is a representative in a lot of ways and
17:27
he was a huge influence. I'm 66, so I grew up as a
17:33
young adult in the ascendancy of the power and
17:37
influence. It might be, uh, a function of my own
17:43
current social media feed, but I did not see a lot
17:48
of, um, sadness about the reports of Dr. Dobson's
17:54
death that hit yesterday. Um, there are people
18:00
that are mourning him. He was a great man. He was
18:03
a great servant, um, of the church. I came of age
18:09
as a young adult in the 80s and 90s. He was
18:13
everywhere. And when I think of a person and their
18:18
ideas becoming an institution and a fortress, he
18:25
is a really good example of that. Between Focus on
18:29
the Family, Family Research Council, even
18:33
Adventures in Odyssey, all of um, the conferences
18:38
he um, sponsored or his organization sponsored,
18:43
um, as an outreach to parents who had kids in the
18:48
LGBTQ community. No matter what he did, he was ah,
18:55
a towering figure, um, and very influential. And
18:59
the amount of pain that his ideas left behind as a
19:07
deposit in so many families lives, including my
19:10
own, um, I don't think it can be overstated. Um,
19:17
the anger and the frustration that is coming out
19:21
among those who've been wounded by his teaching,
19:26
um, the amount of people that are triggered. Just
19:29
hearing his name is not a small thing. That grief
19:33
and that anger and that frustration means
19:37
something.
19:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:39
>> Michelle: And um, that's for people like my husband and I
19:44
who were looking for guidance on how to parent
19:49
differently than the households we'd come from for
19:52
how to honor God. Everyone pointed us. This is the
19:57
guy with the answers. He's on the air every day
20:02
with his warm voice and his great sounding advice.
20:08
Some of it was helpful, a lot of it wasn't. A lot
20:12
of it was harmful. And um, it fed into the bigger
20:19
kind of unhealth. That is a lot of people are
20:24
deconstructing from, um, and have been for the
20:27
last 20 years, um, that the word deconstruction is
20:33
while it comes from philosophy. But ah, the word
20:36
deconstruction as applied to faith, um, might feel
20:42
newer than that. But um, honestly the rise of the
20:46
emergent church and some of the questions that
20:50
people started asking at the end of the 90s and
20:54
into the 2000s, early 2000s are all part of the
20:58
same, uh, movement of where we are. And that it's
21:05
a reaction and a response to the Dr. Dobsons and
21:10
all of the other kind of characters that I talk
21:14
about in my book.
21:16
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned it because I think
21:18
this leads well into other themes you explore in
21:21
the book. Like I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of.
21:25
You know, you're right about this tendency within
21:28
evangelicalism. I mean really like evangelicalism
21:32
and fundamentalism. I grew up more in
21:34
fundamentalism, but they operate with many of the
21:37
same.
21:38
>> Michelle: Kind of big overlap.
21:41
>> Loren: Mhm, right. A lot of overlap. Not, I wouldn't say
21:43
they're one in the same, but a lot of overlap.
21:45
>> Michelle: Sure.
21:46
>> Loren: But a lot of the same kind of assumptions and this
21:50
thing that. This need to protect or guard against
21:54
the evil out there. I know Mike Cosper, just like
21:56
he did that new podcast series on that kind of
22:02
same theme. You write about that in your book. I'm
22:04
thinking two things here. One is that kind of need
22:08
to guard against. And two, which I'm thinking of
22:13
other leaders like Bill Gothard. I think about
22:18
someone who has formed it for my own upbringing,
22:21
like Joshua Harris. You know, this kind of idea,
22:24
like within those circles of like we're really, we
22:28
really want someone who can tell us all the
22:30
answers.
22:31
>> Michelle: Yes, yes. And um, for people of my generation, I'm
22:38
66. Mhm. Um, we. We were looking at. Not all of
22:46
us. I probably shouldn't even use the word we, but
22:50
I can say me for sure and a whole lot of other
22:55
people that I've known. We're looking for
22:59
structure. We're looking for rules. We're looking
23:02
for parents, spiritual parents who could guide us,
23:06
um, and kind of show us how to navigate in a very,
23:11
um, unpredictable world and a very scary world.
23:16
Um, although we didn't say we were scared, we
23:19
didn't even. We were completely disconnected from
23:24
the idea of that we were animated by fear. Um, so
23:31
to have somebody say, here are the rules. Bill
23:35
Gothard is, I have, I have lots to say about him
23:40
too. But Bill Gothard, um, gave a whole lot of
23:46
baby boomers and those that came after them the
23:51
security of being able to know where the lines
23:54
were, how to color in them, and how to color in
23:58
them using a box of eight crayons. No more, no
24:02
less. Yeah, I remember being in kindergarten and
24:05
when I was a kid and always wishing someone would
24:10
give me the box of 64. Um, there were always a
24:14
couple of kids in class, the show off kids that
24:16
showed up with the box of 64. I guess we only
24:19
needed 32, um, you know, in our school supply box.
24:23
So that's what I got. But Bill Gothard said,
24:27
here's your eight crayons and here's the lines.
24:30
And yeah, there was a lot of security in. Or it's
24:37
fake security because life is never that, that
24:41
simple. And the Bible isn't just a rule book,
24:46
right. Of, of coloring pages. So I, I spent time
24:53
in those circles in, in very fundamentalist
24:57
circles. Um, always with the sense that I, I was
25:02
not measuring up. There was no way I could do
25:05
this. Right. And um, at the same time I had a mind
25:12
and I was reading and asking questions and I was
25:15
married to a guy who loved theology as much as Me
25:18
and was asking questions. And, um, and those
25:23
questions grew us. They didn't shrink us. They
25:27
didn't require us to give up two or three more of
25:30
those eight crayons. So, um, you know, and we've.
25:35
We've also spent time in charismatic circles, um,
25:41
not necessarily as a. A reaction. Always longing
25:47
for connection, always longing for communion.
25:49
Always longing for the family of God to be the
25:53
family of God. Um, I found pieces, remnants, in a
26:00
lot of those spaces. Not all, um, but it was never
26:05
the person holding the microphone. It was never
26:07
the person running the big program, um, raising
26:12
money or flogging us onto the next exciting
26:17
mountaintop experience or whatever. The thing was,
26:21
um, there those sacred people were that showed me
26:29
the church that I knew I was reading about in the
26:32
Bible. The flawed and beautiful church. They were
26:36
there all along, which is why I'm still here.
26:41
>> Loren: Wow. You said so much here. And I feel like I've
26:43
taken this conversation far off script from what I
26:47
wanted to. And I suppose it's good because I think
26:49
it's important perspectives. But I gotta ask
26:52
another hard question, and I feel like you're up
26:54
for it, but.
26:54
>> Michelle: Sure.
26:55
>> Loren: Like, I, Like, I'm just thinking about this in. In
26:59
this concept of, like, reactionary. You know, you
27:03
talk about this seeking security, being animated
27:05
by fear. All things like no one would admit to.
27:10
Especially, you know, in the 90s. I'm thinking 80s
27:13
90s, early 2000s.
27:14
>> Michelle: Yeah.
27:16
>> Loren: Um, like, I think. Tell me if you don't disagree.
27:21
But I think it'd be fair to say in many ways
27:23
evangelicalism was a reaction of, like, the
27:28
societal disruption. So I guess my big question
27:31
that I'm trying to get at is like, is the whole
27:35
project irreparably broken? You know what?
27:40
>> Michelle: Right.
27:41
>> Loren: And I hate to ask that because, like, I'm not like
27:43
a. I try not to be like a hot taker, evangelical
27:47
basher.
27:50
>> Michelle: I, um, think you're asking a fair question.
27:54
Evangelicalism's roots go back way further than 50
27:59
years. Modern kind of post World War II
28:03
evangelicalism is what I focus on in the book.
28:06
>> Loren: Right.
28:07
>> Michelle: But that didn't come out of nothing. It was not ex
28:10
nihilo. There was all of. There's a whole bunch of
28:15
background and backstory that fed evangelicalism.
28:20
Billy Sunday was, you know, and George Whitfield,
28:24
and there's all of these voices that helped to
28:27
cultivate the soil that then erupted into modern
28:31
evangelicalism.
28:33
>> Loren: Right.
28:34
>> Michelle: So is the. Is the whole foundation bad? A lot of
28:41
it is not. It's not worth saving. I mean, that's
28:45
Kind of what I say in the book. But. But there's a
28:48
big but. That's not the whole story. Um, what.
28:53
Another thing that's kind of saved my faith over
28:58
the years. Um, a good counselor, number one. Um,
29:03
not going to lie. Um, spiritual director, good,
29:08
honest, faithful friends. Um, you know, and some
29:13
of those examples of people that really believed
29:16
what, What Jesus was saying, um, all of those have
29:22
acted as salt and light for me.
29:24
>> Loren: Right.
29:25
>> Michelle: The other thing is that I loved church history.
29:30
I've always loved church history. And being able
29:34
to, um, read church history and have the long view
29:40
of what has come before, the corruption, um, the
29:46
bad teaching, the heresy, um, the crusades. I
29:51
mean, you can go down, down the line. Um, helps me
29:58
put some of this in perspective.
30:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:02
>> Michelle: But, um, it also helps me want to continue to push
30:08
people and advocate for a church that will exist
30:12
after I'm gone. And after you're gone, which is
30:16
the central question of the book. What's worth
30:19
keeping? We're in a period of downsizing.
30:23
Although, if you listen to some people, um, you
30:27
know, evangelicalism is bigger and better. And
30:30
there's some statistics, depending on who's doing
30:33
the stats and what the lens is, that show that
30:37
evangelicalism, even in America, in the west, is.
30:41
Is still growing. In some places, it's growing a
30:44
lot faster. Um, in the Global south. In other
30:48
places, for sure. And it doesn't look as anything
30:51
like what we have going. There's no focus on the
30:55
family, you know, edifice in Colorado Springs, for
30:59
example, you know, in all of these different
31:02
places in the world. Um, but that said, being able
31:08
to figure out what is of lasting value, it's just
31:13
shocking how much. Right. Better said how little
31:18
there is. Uh, so the answer is there's not
31:23
nothing, but there's not, Uh, a lot of where we've
31:28
invested our energy will not. Will not last. And
31:32
it shouldn't last.
31:34
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you bring up, like, the
31:36
historical perspective, because certainly, like
31:38
you said, like I'm thinking even the tradition I'm
31:42
a part of, the Christian Church, Disciples of
31:44
Christ, really stems out of, like, the broader
31:48
kind of like, low E, smaller lowercase evangelical
31:54
movement, which I think we. We put like Methodism
31:58
historically with that movement and so forth and
32:00
so on. Um, but you're right, a lot of the modern
32:03
trappings have been, uh, problematic, to say the
32:09
least, in those institutions.
32:11
So that leads me to another question that you. Or
32:14
another theme you talk about in your book. And I'm
32:16
reminded of this from a, uh, I Don't know if
32:17
you're familiar with the author J. Michael Jordan,
32:20
who talks about anxiety and worship and how like
32:23
the modern kind of evangelical non denominational
32:27
service is kind of like predicated on building
32:30
like a mini revival service.
32:32
>> Michelle: Absolutely, absolutely.
32:34
>> Loren: So what I thought it was important that you talked
32:36
about distinguishing between revival and
32:40
revivalism. I've been loosely following the story
32:44
of Asbury and.
32:46
>> Michelle: Mhm.
32:47
>> Loren: I find it compelling. I'm just gonna be honest, I
32:49
find it compelling and I think, God, I hope this
32:55
is real and I hope do something in my neck of the
32:59
woods too.
33:00
>> Michelle: Mhm.
33:01
>> Loren: But also I think like you talk about, there's been
33:03
this thing of like, can we manufacture revival?
33:06
>> Michelle: Yes. And depending on who's doing the definition
33:11
of what revival is, uh, you end up with everything
33:16
from just a supernatural download of emotional
33:23
fireworks and all kinds of signs and war wonders
33:27
and people just confessing their sins randomly and
33:34
healings happening that's in one stream, in
33:37
another stream. It's that um, you end up with kind
33:41
of like what John Calvin was hoping to create in
33:47
Switzerland. A society that's just so ordered and
33:51
orderly and everybody is following the rules,
33:55
coloring in the lines with their eight crayons
33:58
that um, you know that that's what revival looks
34:02
like.
34:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:03
>> Michelle: And you end up with a lot of people either
34:07
manufacturing it. We're having revival services.
34:10
To me, um, every Southern Baptist church that's
34:14
ever said we're having a week of revival services.
34:17
And like, I don't think that works that way. Um,
34:21
but people want goosebumps and they want the next
34:25
exciting thing. And evangelicalism is notorious
34:31
for that in all of its different streams. That's
34:36
for every definition, every wonderful kind of
34:39
definition of what makes an evangelical. An
34:42
evangelical revivalism, um, is kind of the
34:47
undercurrent, the dark underbelly of some of that
34:51
um, description. So revival in itself is something
35:00
that makes more sense in retrospect.
35:04
>> Loren: Mhm.
35:04
>> Michelle: It happens. God moves. I believe that that's true.
35:09
I still believe that that's true. So I was like
35:12
you, I was very interested with when there were
35:16
these extended services at Asbury and people were
35:19
coming forward and confessing their sins. And I
35:23
gave them, and continue to give them great credit
35:27
for recognizing that. Of course everyone came
35:31
swooping in and rushing in to, you know, try and
35:36
get a piece of that, take it home with them or
35:38
make it happen or you know, whatever, whatever,
35:43
um, the motivation was. And they really tried to
35:48
make sure that non famous people and uh, non
35:52
celebrities were a part of it. And they, they they
35:56
tried to steward what was happening as well as
36:02
they could. And it's like they learned some
36:07
lessons from all of the bells and whistles and
36:13
circuses, Christian circuses that had gone before.
36:18
And um, was it a revival? Was it just a hiccup?
36:24
Um, time will tell how much stands. And that
36:30
humility is something that's often lacking when
36:34
revival is talked about.
36:37
>> Loren: I'm so glad you shared that point about humility.
36:39
And as you're talking about revival, I couldn't
36:41
help but think about a few years back, I was able
36:46
to be. I'm not sure if you've heard of this place.
36:48
Caneridge, Kentucky.
36:49
>> Michelle: Oh, yeah, Yeah. I was baptized in a Christian
36:53
church and so, uh, Disciples of Christ. And so I
36:57
have some experience in that world. Yeah. And
37:00
Cayden Ridge was huge.
37:01
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean, I was there and it's, it's ah. Yeah.
37:05
I mean, it feels like hollow ground. And I wonder,
37:08
like, maybe there's something in the water there
37:10
in Kentucky. I don't know. Um, but I'm also, you
37:15
know, I remember like standing, uh, around that
37:17
building and thinking like, boy, you know what,
37:20
200 years ago, roughly, it was, if I'm doing my
37:24
math right, they were just camping out and stuff
37:28
started happening and it was.
37:31
There were no bells and whistles, which I'm going
37:34
to use as a transition to another thing I want to
37:38
talk about because I think that's such an
37:39
interesting point you bring up about the bells and
37:40
whistles and the next exciting thing. A few
37:43
episodes back, I had a conversation with two
37:46
authors who wrote about, gosh blank on his name
37:51
now, Crystal, uh, cathedral guy.
37:53
>> Michelle: Oh, Shuler.
37:54
>> Loren: Shuler, yeah. Yeah. And I think in so many ways he
37:58
exemplified. Maybe not exemplified, but he first
38:01
really got it started on this bells and whistles
38:04
thing of like, you probably heard this term
38:06
before, of like the purple cow obsession in
38:09
church.
38:10
>> Michelle: Mhm. And that business of drawing a crowd. And I
38:17
use every single one of those words intentionally.
38:22
Yeah. That business of drawing a crowd has fueled
38:26
every unhealthy kind of thing that's happened in
38:31
the church. From the church growth movement, which
38:34
Shuler was a big part of, to, um, if you look at,
38:43
um, Charisma magazine, who reports on the
38:47
charismatic world, anytime that there is a church
38:51
service that lasts a little too long, or people,
38:56
you know, there's a stirring of emotions. This is
39:00
the next hotspot for revival. And it's a drug
39:05
that, um, they're pursuing the gifts and not the
39:09
giver. And that lack of, that lack of self
39:16
awareness that this isn't something we can
39:19
manufacture. Um, whether it is in a beautifully
39:24
ordered society like um, a Doug Wilson keeps
39:29
pushing for. Yeah, I, um, mean we've got it all
39:32
over the place. And um, even though we've touched
39:35
on a lot of these different names, like from Cam
39:39
Ridge to Doug Wilson to Bill Gothard, there's um,
39:44
a longing for power and control that is the
39:50
opposite of what, ah, a revived life looks like.
39:56
>> Loren: Mhm. I suppose that's a good question here to end
40:01
this section on whether we're talking about Bill
40:05
Gothard or Schuller or. Or Dobson. There does seem
40:09
to be this tendency within evangelicalism of. I
40:15
think you write about a symbiotic relationship
40:17
between authoritarianism and authoritarian
40:21
evangelicalism. Mhm.
40:23
>> Michelle: Again, what do you think it goes back to? We're
40:29
looking for somebody to tell us where the lines
40:33
are and hand us the crayons.
40:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:37
>> Michelle: Maybe you get 12 crayons, maybe you don't get
40:39
eight. But it's that desire for control and power.
40:48
Um, it's in each one of us. I'm not going to just
40:51
point at this bad leader and that bad leader. Um,
40:56
because those of us that have been especially in
40:59
high control kinds of toxic environments m. Are.
41:05
Are responding to the same, to the same thing. Um,
41:11
and the goal should be spiritual health. Um, we
41:16
use the term growth. We use it in terms of church,
41:20
we use it in terms of spiritual growth. It's not
41:23
bad. But um, to become healthy and move towards
41:29
wholeness leads us in different places than um,
41:36
authoritarianism does. And in church settings
41:41
there's no end of people holding microphones and
41:44
telling us how to live. And we need good guidance.
41:48
We need shepherds. We don't need, um, the kind of
41:52
shepherding that I describe in one of the chapters
41:54
of the book, which was a function of second wave
41:58
care, charismatic renewal, um, that how did it do
42:03
a lot of damage. And it also created an
42:05
environment, um, that birthed Christian
42:09
nationalism.
42:10
>> Loren: So yeah, yeah. I mean such, such heavy but
42:17
important and wow. Important, uh, conversations
42:22
and topics that we could spend so much time
42:26
talking about. I feel like I need to take a deep
42:30
breath here. Just kind of.
42:32
>> Michelle: Whoo.
42:34
>> Loren: I really appreciate the conversation. Again, uh,
42:37
the book is Downsizing Letting Go of
42:40
Evangelicalism's Non Essentials. Let's take a
42:44
quick break and let's come back with some closing
42:46
questions.
42:49
All right, we're back with Michelle Van Loon. And
42:51
Michelle, really appreciate your conversation,
42:53
your frankness, your openness. So you've said
42:58
you're geared up for this one so if you're Pope
43:00
for a day, what do you want to do with that day?
43:03
>> Michelle: Okay, so best question. I love this question. I
43:09
would be a terrible Pope for so many too many
43:14
opinions. But, um, if I had 24 hours, I would, um,
43:24
make sure I was out there washing some feet. I
43:29
would get rid of the white outfit because, um, I
43:32
get stains on myself very easily.
43:35
>> Loren: Sure.
43:35
>> Michelle: Um, I would go find people who had been
43:40
disenfranchised by the church, and I would ask
43:43
them to tell me their stories. And I would not
43:49
rush in with prescriptions. I would make sure I
43:52
had some Kleenex. Um, and maybe we could use my
43:56
white outfit that I was no longer wearing as
43:59
Kleenex. Um, and then maybe to end the day, I
44:05
would go to a White Sox game because the current
44:11
Pope. I'm from Chicago. Um, and, uh, the Pope, the
44:15
current Pope was a Sox fan, much to my husband's
44:19
delight. I'm a Cubs person, but, um, you know, we
44:24
know about long time, long suffering, terrible
44:29
teams in Chicago.
44:30
>> Loren: Like, yeah.
44:31
>> Michelle: You know, especially the Cubs. But that's how I
44:34
would. That's how I would end the day. And I'd
44:37
make it free for everybody who could fit in the
44:39
stadium and we would just have a good time, eaten
44:43
ballpark food together.
44:45
>> Loren: Love that. Yeah, love that. You know, it's
44:48
hilarious. Like, of all the problems with the
44:49
Internet, like, somehow that the someone on the
44:52
Internet found a picture of the Pope at the World
44:55
Series.
44:56
>> Michelle: Yes. It's so cool.
44:58
>> Loren: Incredible.
44:59
>> Michelle: Yeah.
44:59
>> Loren: Epic.
45:00
Okay, I'm gonna spin this question that I had for
45:03
you. So often we can kind of name names and tell
45:09
stories of all these bad m. Troublemakers in
45:13
evangelicalism, when I know there's been countless
45:16
faithful, quiet servants. Mhm. Whose one or two
45:23
you'd.
45:23
>> Michelle: Hm.
45:23
>> Loren: Want to lift up. Whether well known or not, they
45:26
are not well known.
45:28
>> Michelle: They will never be well known, probably. Although
45:31
I did name one in the book. So I'll start with her
45:36
every Friday morning. Just about every Friday
45:39
morning, including this morning. Um, because we're
45:42
taping on a Friday, I get on the phone with my
45:47
prayer partner of 25 years. Her name is Meg
45:51
Kozlick. And, um, we tell each other the truth
45:57
about our lives and we pray. We used to live in
46:02
the same town. And that connection has continued
46:05
and continued and continued.
46:09
>> Loren: Um.
46:11
>> Michelle: We all need someone with whom we can be ourselves.
46:18
And, um, everyone needs that way more than a good
46:23
program or amazing, um, worship music or a smoke
46:29
machine or, you know, whatever goes on in
46:33
institutional Christianity. We need somebody who
46:39
sees us and knows us.
46:48
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
46:50
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
46:53
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46:55
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