Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Christy (Part 1 of 2)

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Guest: Christy (Part 1 of 2) · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: This in some ways is not the most fun podcast episode because we're gonna talk about some hard things. And I guess there's a trigger warning a little bit just because we are gonna talk about some therapy trauma a little bit. So if that's something that is too much right up front for anybody, just skip this episode. But you and I met through Healing Together, the conference for people who have dissociative disorders and clinicians who treat them. And we connected through, one of the Chat and Chew groups originally at the lunchtime during the conference.
• 1:48
  And I'm so grateful because you're someone I'm glad is in my life. And I almost didn't go to that lunch. And so I'm actually, I just wanna say that because I know by the time this airs, registration for Healing Together will be open. So I do wanna give a shout out because it's such a positive experience where it has been for me and us. We were so scared.
• 2:13
  People who have listened to the whole podcast from the beginning know how hard it was for us the first time. Then last year when we went, it was virtual because of the pandemic, but it really takes so much courage to show up and to attend, especially one of those lunches, but it has changed our life literally. Through those conversations, you and I shared that we, or we, you and I discovered that we had some unique but common shared experiences just with therapy being hard. And so we're gonna talk about that a little bit today. Is there anything that you wanna say just to introduce yourself before we get started?
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Sure. So, you know, one of the shared experiences that we do have in common, is being a therapist who also has lived experience with dissociation. And so, there are some unique angles to this and sort of circular dynamics that, happen as a result of being a therapist who also has dissociation and treats dissociation. So, you know, when I kind of came into awareness of that being a part of my life, it has been a bit of a challenge, but also wonderful to connect with you having similar experience and some other therapists who have dissociation as well. That's a huge part of what I'm working on.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: We've shared on the podcast a little bit of our story that we were working as a therapist, that I was working as a therapist, and basically the trigger for getting a diagnosis for us confirmed, although we had been at like 17 a long time ago, so so long ago. But one of the triggers was that both of our parents passed away and it suddenly all this stuff started coming up and it led to treatment, which led to the confirming of that diagnosis, which we hadn't actually forgotten entirely about because of therapy trauma and some unfortunate incidents, which we referenced some of those in the book. What was that like for you just generally, just generally working as a clinician and realizing that there's some dissociation going on?
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Yes. Very, very complicated. So it sort of happened, I would say accidentally or or otherwise that I came into awareness of this. I began, first I got trained in EMDR in 2017 and began to jump in kind of full force to practicing that. And as, as I was doing some trainings on attachment, it sort of hit me that, wow, there's a lot of stuff here that, you know, I really have trouble identifying, like nurturing figures from the past.
• 5:16
  And that led to going back and reading some of my old journals, in search of information about what's, you know, what's that all about? And in the course of that, I found some nymph like some trauma entries that I had written that I had zero knowledge about, totally dissociated from about thirteen years prior. Started trauma therapy as a result of that to try to work on those adult onset traumas. And in the course of that process, hit all these roadblocks that my, former therapist and I came to realize I, you know, really tied into having a pretty significant PART system. So, really was trauma therapy that brought my dissociation to the- to the surface.
• 6:01
  And we began doing a lot of parts work and conference room work and things along those lines. You know, it just really like opened that door. So, trauma therapy is what brought it to light, it has been a very challenging dynamic navigating my own trauma stuff and, and like awareness of dissociation while also being a therapist treating those things. Because it's often like, okay, I don't know what this is for me. How am I going to do this for other people?
• 6:29
  Kind of deal? So complicated.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: What is the benefit of being a clinician who has lived experience also treating others who are survivors?
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I would say where I am with it now, I see it as a huge asset because there's so much information I have, even just from my own therapy process that I can bring into session. Information that I'm confident that I- I simply would not have access to if I was not a person with lived experience. You know, it's very, very frequently the case that something I'm working on with someone in session, I know the next step to take because I've taken it myself.
• 7:14
  And I'm like, hey, I I have kind of a an idea in mind of like, this is how this might work out for you. And, you know, it kind of gives me a lot more insight. You know, I certainly can't claim to have read all the books necessarily, but I do feel like there's insight in lived experience that you're not going get from a lot of textbooks.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: So some people might say someone with lived experience that that's a red flag or that they would not be an appropriate clinician to be able to treat trauma. Think for us, can go either way, really. Like obviously any clinician, whether they have trauma issues or something else, any clinician who's not done their own work should not be practicing. That should just be part of the process already. So there's all kinds of lived experience with other issues, with trauma, does a clinician, like how does another clinician with lived experience know when that's okay to either reengage or approach or help with, or when they should just step back and not?
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that is a good question. Yeah. Because I, I don't feel like I knew a lot of the answers to that when I was in the middle of sort of the crisis of it for that season. You know, maybe looking back, there are a lot of places that I maybe pushed forward and, you know, probably made some mistakes. Like, I definitely think, you know, there were elements of being so raw with it in my own process early in that led to probably being a little bit too open with like self disclosure, for example, in session.
• 8:53
  And so I think that, you know, as the decision of barriers started coming down, I lost some of the control that I would normally have in in my therapy process. And so, you know, just to be to be honest, I think that there are some some dangers associated with when especially when you were first like learning about dissociation and doing trauma work at the same time. There are some there are some inherent problems that I certainly wasn't well prepared to navigate. You know, and and now looking back, it probably would have been helpful not to be doing both at the same time, like becoming a new trauma therapist at the same time. But unfortunately, that's kind of the way it played out.
• 9:39
  To me now, you know, kind of evaluating, like, being a trauma therapist and a therapist with dissociation, I sort of feel like, I am in a space where I can more easily like separate out and compartmentalize, you know, intentionally. You know, but people who haven't done the work, and- and this will play into kind of our topic ultimately about like therapy violations, people who haven't done the work are the most dangerous, especially especially people people who who do do have a trauma history but either don't know it or are not willing to approach it. And so to me, that's really kind of the greatest risk is when clinicians are operating from traumatized spaces that they don't even know they have or have not even tried to approach.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: I have had a similar experience in that during this season, like after our parents died and all of this developmental stuff came to the surface and started flashing and that difficult, difficult season of figuring out, okay, this is what DID is. This is what it looks like. And all of the chaos that comes with that, we actually stopped private practice altogether.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: We
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: were able to work. I was able to work really well as a clinician in the ER for several years because it was short term, it was not attachment dependent, I could respond well in a crisis because many of us who are survivors are used to living in a crisis. And so it was actually a strong point and I was a really, really good ER clinician and not just for making referrals or getting people in beds or things like that for psychiatric units or or rehab facilities, but even for crises that happen in the hospital for mental health issues or escalate patients or things like that. I was really, really good at that. For a season that provided for our family while I got my stuff together instead of doing private practice where I followed long term people.
• 11:50
  There was this transition phase where with teletherapy actually, I was able to transition sort of back into private practice where I could follow people, there was still that Right. That was a different context than being in people's homes for like casework kind of stuff or intensive DHS work or things like that. But also where there was another platform that was regulating all of the either business side of things or office management side of things or things so that I literally only had to do just my people, so to speak.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Right. Right.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: And so that as I increased my functioning, there was still this safety net around what I could manage and what I because it took a lot of spoons. It took a lot of energy and reengaging with that was a really careful thing. But there's also the issues like you're talking about with boundaries of, I I wanted everything on lockdown, like, don't disclose anything to anybody of the boundary violations that I had experienced myself. Then at the same time, to learn when is it okay to be flexible? What what is appropriate self disclosure?
• 13:16
  When is appropriate self disclosure? And then that turned into later, have the podcast. Like, people some people are going to find the podcast or now I've got this book. And are we gonna let who who gets to read the book? And things like that.
• 13:32
  Because that's a lot of disclosure even if it's very carefully selected and we agree that this is just pieces, not like real life. It's not our it's not our real life. Though they are true and accurate and pieces of what our real life was. It's it's I don't know. It was just a process for us of what how to navigate it, not just either or.
• 13:58
  I wanna come back to your point that I think it really makes all the difference whether someone is doing their own work or not, kind of comes back to one of the other things that we're gonna talk about with therapy trauma. Just so that you know for context, the rest of this summer is basically about this. By the time airs, listeners will have heard us talk about some of these things already in general ways or principle ways or kind of climbing out of the hole we felt knocked down into last year. One thing really made it easier for us to talk about it is that we had someone who was just doing a podcast interview, come on. She talked to, it was Maureen McEvoy actually, but she talked about all of her case studies simply using the name Kelly for everybody.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: And that actually opened up a whole world for us to be able to talk about things. So now from from from since that interview forward, now just reference any previous therapist as Kelly and
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, good idea.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Made it so safe and so much easier to be able to talk about things.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Makes sense. Makes sense. So there's not risk of name, like, like, how do you keep straight when you're talking about names and things like, like, there's not that risk of disclosing a name.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Right. Right. Because I'm not here to be disrespectful. I'm not here to gossip, but it is my work to work out these own issues or my right to like, they're just like with abuse, like, it's not my secrets. I shouldn't have to carry around.
• 15:47
  This is what happened and how do I navigate it?
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a really good point. That makes a lot of sense. And I think is a wise way to humanize the experience without risking the safety issues.
• 16:03
  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: So in the book, we share several different experiences. We had a therapist that like didn't want to close their office door, could be a small thing if no one's actually around, but as a trauma person and an anxiety person and not feeling safe, that did not help us feel safe. We share the example of in the book, we share the example of a therapist who actually had an affair with our partner. So that was obviously a problem. We share the story that a therapist, when we were 17, our therapist moved us into her home because that was in the season of the nineties and reparenting.
• 16:47
  And she really thought she was doing the right thing and I don't know she saved our lives so maybe she did. So to this day there's this back and forth of was that okay was it not okay but no one talked to us about it and the one time that we did try to talk about it in therapy and just sort of resolve that in our head, that person actually knew that therapist. And so we couldn't really talk about it other than determining that that first Kelly was not, like, evil. But Right. But how you how do you navigate that?
• 17:25
  And then and then we've had these issues over the last year of where our life in a rural community and our therapy life just crossed, and it felt like we just messed everything up. And we basically grieved a very good Kelly, but lost it because of the context in which we found ourselves and and blame ourselves for that to this day, but also can't go back to her because of those lines. So it And was just entirely cut off which ultimately impacted our relationships too because that was such a huge thing that we were going through but we couldn't talk to our friends about it because they knew her. And so it really destroyed us in so many ways. And I don't know, honestly, if we would have been able to find our way through that without our group from Healing Together.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure. That makes sense. That makes sense. It's been life changing, absolutely connecting with, if I'm not following you right, the group of therapists who have dissociation from that conference.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: There's so many of us who have been through difficult experiences. What is what is your story just generally? And I don't I don't mean to be intrusive,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: but just generally, what is your story of what you've endured? Sure. So I would say there's a lot I don't know about the past, I believe. I don't know that my story is the classic story of someone who has very clinically significant dissociation, but I guess I'll find out over time, hopefully. But I do know that there was significant, attachment trauma, misattunement, invalidation, some gaslighting.
• 19:22
  Basically, my- my older brother kind of chronically tortured me over the course of childhood. I believe probably everyone in my family has an attachment disorder, family of origin. And I think that his aggression came out of his own, like, lack of needs being met. And so there were just, especially like early childhood, probably up through at least elementary school, there was just a lot of abuse with him, like physically, psychologically, mentally, stuff like that, a lot of shaming. And then in middle school, we had moved to a new town, and it was sort of this chance to start over.
• 19:56
  And that's where a lot of my protector parts came in because we decided to be perfect and leave that life behind. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to Yale. I'm gonna be like the perfect student. I'm going to, you know, as if I can just become this perfect person, then it would not have happened kind of deal. And so I believe that's where my task manager part was born.
• 20:17
  That's one of my most significant parts in my system. And kind of fast forward to, I got very involved in, religion, spirituality in a, in a very, you know, kind of very rigid way around high school, and that carried through college. And then after, after college, kind of had a bit of a spiritual identity crisis and was, you know, working in, like I was waiting tables in between college and grad school because I was planning to go to grad school for counseling. And some really significant trauma, trauma things happened, sexual trauma things happened during that season that I did not recognize were more sexual trauma until much later. And then, you know, became a therapy.
• 20:54
  I went to grad school a couple years later, became a therapist, got involved in, working community mental health, and kind of shoved down my story because, well, my stuff isn't as bad as theirs, kind of was my perception. So, I must be fine. Like, I was able to convince myself that things were okay because my story didn't look like theirs. And then getting into private practice, and into trauma therapy, starting in 2017 as therapist, I sort of had to face the fact that I've been, you know, pushing all of this stuff down forever, basically. You know, I've done a lot- I had done therapy work prior to, you know, coming into trauma therapy and all of that, but I'd never dealt with trauma on that level, you know, really opening that door.
• 21:38
  So, kind of going into- going into trauma therapy and coming to recognize, like, a lot of things that were much more significant than I realized was a huge shock. Just- just kind of eye opening in a way that's, you know, at some level destabilizing, just like, how is how is this a thing in that space? But I would say more or less that's kind of the outline of of the story.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: I wanna go back to one simple thing that you said very quickly, but I feel like is a really big piece of, I don't know if my dissociation counts. How bad is it? Is it it it doesn't look like this, and it's not looking like this. And so does it count? Is it enough?
• 22:22
  How could what I went through be bad enough, quote, quote
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: For this to matter? Like, what is wrong with me that I'm having this big reaction when what I went through wasn't as bad as those kinds of statements.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Like, self invalidation is the norm for my system. Believing that my stuff isn't that bad, I think is probably, a long standing survival mechanism, you know, and and I believe in some ways that's the, the way that denial plays out for me.
• 22:59
  But I've also come to realize in maybe in the last couple months that part of that has to do with certain parts carrying certain memories and others don't. So like, if I look back most of the time in a just a general way on the past, I'm generally looking at it from the framework of parts that are more attachment oriented and how are motivated to portray the past as positive, it was fine, everything was fine, Nothing to see here. You know, that's sort of like their line. But what I've come to realize is those parts do not share memories with the parts that hold the trauma. And so when I'm looking back, if I'm not actively engaging with those traumatized parts, then I'm not actively connecting with the memories at the same time.
• 23:47
  And so I can't hold a consistent view of the reality of it, just at a glance. It's just, I mean, I'd have to delve deeper and really engage with the traumatized parts to really feel it and to believe it. But that is a long standing challenge in my own trauma work is being able to self validate. I mean, significant long standing issue. And in a lot of ways, and this is something that, several of the podcasts that I think that you've done over the last couple months have touched on reenactment.
• 24:17
  Like, invalidation was, my entire experience growing up. You're too dramatic, you're too emotional, get over it. So I learned to shut down emotions really early and still really struggle with feeling things. And so I reenact myself this self invalidation of, Oh, it's not that bad. You're being too dramatic.
• 24:37
  You know? And and so, you know, and I I still wrestle with that, like you had mentioned, about how is my trauma story bad enough to warrant having DID, for example. That's still a long standing struggle in my system that we're trying to navigate, to sort out a bit. And yeah, I think that I'm not alone in that type of challenge because I kind of hear some similar things from some people, but it is a really big struggle that I'm working on.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: We have been working
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: on that in therapy about the reenactment and how not validating ourself is acting out, how we were not validated when we were little. And I love how you laid that out with parts that when we are in a daily living part or a functioning part or a an adult self, like, however you wanna say it, when we're coming from that framework and do not have connection to or are actively dismissing child parts or younger parts or developmental parts or trauma holding parts or however you wanna say those, when we are actively shutting them down or dismissing them or avoiding them or phobic of them or not tending to them, of course we don't feel those things because we don't have access to them.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Right. Yes. Yes.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: So that is part of the phobia, of course, because engaging with them means recognizing all of those layers
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: and feeling
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: the needs that they have and acknowledging the needs, which brings up the fears and the traumas that they have, not just like specific bad memories of this happened, but also those feelings that they have and hold about no one's going to help me. This is never going to get better. I can't get out of this, or it's my fault for needing in the first place. All of those kinds of feelings. So it's a big deal.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and then they you know, and then in my, you know, kind of present day self, wonder why I can't feel it. You know?
• 26:54
  Like, this is why. This is why. I'm not looking in. My phobia of inner experience is so significant that I'm motivated to avoid. That's fundamentally like the role I think dissociation plays in my life is avoidance shutdown.
• 27:09
  So I'm avoiding looking in and- and feeling that, connecting with that, and at the same time, where are those parts? They're just living in the horror house. So and- and something I've recently learned, and this kind of delves deeper into the- the rabbit hole, I guess, for me in- in understanding my system, but I've learned that, even though I have parts, you know, in a secure space or, you know, kind of out of trauma time closer to the surface, sometimes aspects of those parts are still in the memory, even with that. And- and so being able to protect them and care for them is such a complex process. Learning how to do that when that's never been what I've done kind of deal.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: That is an entire battle in itself, engaging with them, tending to them, caring for those parts of self. But then it's also a whole other ballgame. Is that what they say in English? A ballgame
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: or something?
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: A whole other thing to then also try to let someone else outside you care for that, whether that's a partner or a therapist or a support person or a friend. It's so terrifying.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Sure. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I can identify with that, especially when there is, you know, I think for most of us who have significant dissociation, there is a major element of attachment and relational trauma, that again, we are reenacting as present day adults towards our child parts. But, you know, so much of that is because we experienced that pervasively growing up, that relational trauma ranging from like misattunement, emotional disconnection to, you know, very severe, severe abuse and neglect.
• 28:57
  And, so being in relationship is so complicated, for us. You know, as survivors, for for me, myself, you know, my system, it's complicated, being able to consistently connect with people and to feel safe to stay connected. The norm for me is to connect and then step out and then connect and then step out. And I'm trying really hard not to do that with, like, some of these new relationships, you know, that I've built and and that you've built too, I believe, with this group of therapists who have dissociation, trying really hard not to do that because they're so valuable. But it is a challenge to stay connected with people because that's not normal for my system.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: I feel called out by that.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. No. It's true.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: It's so true. I don't think that, like, I don't wake up in the morning and say, who are the people trying to care for me today that I can avoid? It's not intentional like that, I know that things, like it goes back to reenactments, right? Where like my therapist keeps telling me, when you don't access help, you don't access that you have, when you don't let people care for you, that is a reenactment not being cared for when you were little. And so like even the group example, literally made me a spreadsheet, a chart with pictures of this is the day we have group, and here's the link that goes with it and the time.
• 30:38
  Like, that was so fantastic, and I still miss group yesterday.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: I understand, though. I get it. I get it.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Part of part of it is an actual, like, living experience in that I am I do have the outside kids on my own right now. And so it is authentically, legitimately hard.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: And that's the thing. But also at the same time, that group is absolutely one of the biggest self care things I can do for myself to be a better parent or a more present parent or a healthier wholer self, however you want to measure that or say that. So it's really important that I do it. Yet, like this sabotage, not intentionally, but why does that keep playing out that I can't even get to group? And it's just, sometimes it's so frustrating that even trying to you know what?
• 31:41
  It makes me it reminds me of like the whole window of tolerance thing because, like, the harder I push and the harder I try to engage, then the harder it gets to actually happen.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Right. Right.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: And so maybe I just need to even be more gentle in the approach
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: of just like, here's the link when we're ready. Right. Right. That's valid. I mean, I I can imagine there's an element at some level of, like, feeling unsafe with with connection, perhaps.
• 32:15
  I mean, I I can't speak to what's true for you, but like, I I feel like that's true for a lot of people, is like this this fear of, well, if I'm vulnerable, if I'm if I'm connected, like, what happens when it goes wrong? Like, I I feel like that could be the case for a lot of us dealing with relationship after, you know, significant long term relational trauma.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: I I I agree with that. I think so. I did make it to group this morning just to document that. But then someone came on from our group, but who had not attended to any of the groups that I had been in. So there was a new person who was a safe person or they wouldn't have been invited.
• 32:55
  But Right. Also, it was not someone I knew, and I totally was like, and we're out. And clicked the red button, and I was out.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: That makes sense. That's understandable. Fail. It's yeah. I mean, I get like, I I feel like even even though it's not I haven't had as much trouble being able to go to group, I do find myself connecting more or less at times with, actual discussions on, you know, the Facebook group, not just Zoom group.
• 33:27
  And I think that what I have observed in myself is my own, attachment issues playing out as I'm getting to know, at different intervals, like different levels for different different systems in group. My own attachment stuff kind of playing itself out, like disorganized attachment stuff of like, okay, I can I can step in? Oh, wait, no, I don't know. You know, like this weird start and stop kind of dynamic. I feel like we're all kind of in the trust phase of a new relationship together in a in a strange way.
• 34:02
  So I can identify with that.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: I feel like there, out of all the hundreds of people that go to healing together, that I have found like this smaller group that has so much in common with me that I feel, not that our stories are the same, but that we're clinicians who also have DID or dissociative disorders. And so there's so much in common we share. Right. We also, in our particular group, have worked so hard to make it safe and to care for it, that I feel like we have something very special and unique that has been really good for me. And I hope that sometimes I have something to offer.
• 34:43
  And then out of that group, I feel like there's two or three people where I'm like, okay, you can have our phone number and you can have our email address, but I'm not promising I will use it because that is still engaging with people.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: It's fair. I mean, I feel I feel like for I can't speak for others' experience, but I know for me, I can be very much like a cat I'm a cat person. I can be very much like a cat where I'm like, I need to be the one to come to you. You can't come to me. If you come to me too close, I'm probably gonna run away and hide.
• 35:18
  So, like, there's this dynamic, I think, for for me at least of, like, give me the space and don't do something threatening, and I'll start to move towards you and we can, like, be friends. You know?
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: So Yes. I feel like I I I was so excited to report to my therapist. Hey. I made actual friends. Like, I have digits.
• 35:40
  Right. Like, actual friends. Right? And And she's like, what do you think that means for you? And I'm like, that I will never talk to them again now.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Fair point. I love it. Not because I
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: mean to hurt them and I don't mean to act it out or to you or I don't know. There's something that just makes it so hard. Those attachment issues are so deep. I had a friend who I was able to, she was, ugh, I don't even know how to say it. My first friend that I ever came out to about DID, she does not have DID, but she is a dissociator all
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: over the place. Right.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: And the thing that really helped make that feel safe in the beginning was that she was listening to the podcast. And so we would talk about the podcast and be able to process things. And it gave me a way to talk about things and a way to open up, like some structure to And I was able to talk to her about some things in therapy. Like, I don't feel like it was too much, but maybe a little bit about therapy. And it was my first time to have someone else to actually reflect on therapy with and kind of process things.
• 37:08
  And we had some common experiences, different stories, but common experiences from our childhood, some common experiences with the children that were parenting. And there were these layers that, okay, all of these pieces are aligned enough that this is working and I feel better. Like, therapist is always like, you can hold both. Like, it is hard, but also you feel better when you show up. Right?
• 37:39
  Right. So it would feel better engaging with her and trying to develop that friendship. And one thing that was really helpful that she did was she messaged, like texted at, like throughout the day, like it really, for the first time, I felt like I was able to track my days. Oh. And it was a really fascinating experience, but I also know that's not like her job to be my case manager.
• 38:08
  She's just my friend, right? So that's a lot of And responsibility on then when the pandemic happened, we had to just to be able to feed our children, increase our work hours so much and our job changed. And anytime we weren't working, we were having to parent and the dynamic shifted so much. We just can't be on our phone when we're working or when we're with the children.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: It
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: really disrupted our rhythm of being able to communicate. Then all of this happened with Kelly, a previous therapist, where we couldn't And talk about therapy I don't know if she still listens to the podcast or not. And so it just like this space grew and it got harder and harder. Like, I literally don't have capacity and knowledge and skills to be able to stay connected without that level of support. But also can't give that level of support when I'm not giving anything back.
• 39:09
  But I can't give anything back because the pieces that I have to give are not ones I can give to her. And so that was really hard. And it was my first time of not just having a long term friend, but having a long term friend where the dynamic shifted over time. And because that was happening at the same time we were grieving our therapist, now coming into a group of people where I feel like, oh, you are safe people who understand me, and that feels friendish, which also scares me to death. Right.
• 39:46
  Adult labor those are adult layers. They're not even developmental or childhood layers.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Yeah. Because, I mean, I think you have shared that, like, it's new. It's new to have these types of connections at all.
• 40:01
  Right? Like, to to have significant friendships, that's kind of a new dynamic. Right?
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: Well, I sometimes I look at my phone. Like, for you example, I look at my phone and I think I should text her this and this and this just to check-in and say hello and be friendly. And then I think, but what if those things are wrong? Or what if that's too much? Or what if I waited too long and now I messed it up?
• 40:24
  Or what if she does text back? And what if she's nice? I
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: mean, you know, from the standpoint even of reenactment, it makes sense that, like, the expectation almost like the whole, it's easier to cope with what we're used to than trying something new. Like, for me, growing up, I had a long history of being in relationships with people who were kind of friendships, even not romantic relationships, with people who were sort of abusing power, sort of narcissistic, like, like ab- some abuse elements almost. And that was reenacting my dynamic with my brother, like, routinely. It was this repetition compulsion thing. And so like getting out of that dynamic and like being in like safer, egalitarian, you know, we're both giving and receiving in a relationship thing is scary and hard because that's not familiar, you know?
• 41:23
  Like, I feel like that could factor in too. You're so used to relationships aren't safe that like, if they are safe, then what does that mean? I feel like that could factor in.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: It's so much. It's so much. This conversation will be continued in the next episode.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
• 42:15
  We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too. That's what peer support is all about.
• 42:42
  Being human together. So yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.