Latest / Clean Power Hour / Alexis Pascaris, Founder and CEO of Agrisolar Consulting, Dual Use Solar and Agrivoltaics; EP124

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Alexis Pascaris, Founder and CEO of Agrisolar Consulting, Dual Use Solar and Agrivoltaics; EP124 · Clean Power Hour

• 0:50
  Tim Montague: I think you'll see that my guest today is an amazing person. And amazing woman, a very powerful, young, passionate advocate for dual use multi use solar in North America. Alexis Pescara says her name. She's the founding director of a little organisation called agri solar consulting. And she is a catalyst for the maturation of dual use solar. This includes agricole tax, and pollinator friendly solar, and growing honey on solar fields, there's many ways we can make dual uses out of solar farms, they don't have to be a monocrop. of grass.
• 1:39
  Tim Montague: Right. And, and this is good for our industry. It's, it's going to help us be more accepted by neighbours. And we're going to reduce pushback against community and utility solar, which is a real thing, and a real problem in some parts of the US already. It's very early days in the energy transition, and we can't afford any more friction than we already have on the permitting, and local acceptance of renewable energy.
• 2:16
  Tim Montague: Alexis has a master's degree in agri solar. And so she's the first generation of these super knowledgeable and collaborative individuals who is spearheading novel research and development.
• 2:38
  Tim Montague: She's developing a software platform called spade in conjunction with a solar company in Colorado called sandbox solar, and several academic institutions, including the University of Arizona. And this is just a really wonderful thing to make it easier for solar developers to go from saying, Hey, we would love to do specialty cropping on this land.
• 3:11
  Tim Montague: Once we develop a solar farm here. And to actually knowing what types of equipment you want to instal what types of crops are going to work in that geography. What are the challenges that you should anticipate? And so forth and so on. So with with that, I give you Alexis buscar us today on the Clean Power Hour, we're gonna geek out on Agra solar and agricole tax, a topic that is near and dear to my heart. My guest today is Alexis buscar. Is she is the founding director of agri solar consulting. Welcome to the Clean Power Hour Alexis.
• 3:57
  Alexis Pascaris: Thanks so much, Tim. It's an honour to be here with you.
• 4:01
  Tim Montague: I was so thrilled to meet you at SPI this past summer. Now known as already plus. And it's it's it's very heavy days, not just for the solar industry, but for agri solar and agro voltaic because it really is all the rage. The majority of solar professionals would prefer that their projects be dual use in some way they recognise or we recognise that it's good for landowners, it's good for farming communities, it's good for the land, at cetera, et cetera. There's so many goods when you can have dual use solar and we're talking about grazing, growing crops, and other agricultural uses like AP Ares, right growing bees and Bee and honey on solar farms. So tell our listeners a little bit about yourself how you got interested in clean energy and in Agra, solar specifically.
• 5:02
  Alexis Pascaris: Great. Thanks, Sam. My journey goes back a little bit. As a young and passionate environmentalist. I was angry. As a teenager, I read about deforestation and pollution. I was interested in land conservation, natural resource management and just thinking about how we can have a better, more healthy relationship with our world. So that really prompted me to pursue higher education and environmental sustainability. So I earned my undergraduate degree from Michigan State University in 2018. In environmental sustainability with a focus in economics, and while I was there, I got the opportunity to study abroad in Australia, and I did a capstone on alternative energy, and I spent a month travelling around and studying how farms and other food production facilities were integrating alternative energy into their operations. And that really stuck with me. It was cool. But I wanted to keep learning it wasn't enough. And my boyfriend at the time who was actually not my husband really pushed me to pursue graduate school. And I found a programme that resonated resonated with me in a place that I love Michigan's Upper Peninsula. So I went on, and I earned my Master's of Science in environmental and energy policy in 2021, for Michigan Tech. And while I was there, I met the right people at the right time.
• 6:23
  Alexis Pascaris: Dr. Joshua Pierce, Dr. Chelsea Shelley had earned a grant from the Department of Energy Seto office to study agriculture tax, and they offered me the position and it just fit a clip. So well, I got to unite my land conservation passions with alternative energy pursuits. And I went for it, I hit the ground running really hard. My thesis was titled The social dimensions of a technological innovation, agriculture takes in the US. So at a high level, I just really wanted to make the greatest amount of impact in the shortest amount of time. So it means I had to work in opposition to the fossil fuel industry, and an smoother one way or the greater deployment of solar and renewables. So I found myself coming from an angry space to a space of action where I am now.
• 7:16
  Tim Montague: Very cool. Yeah.
• 7:16
  Tim Montague: You're you're probably the first generation of professionals with degrees in agriculture Tech's.
• 7:25
  Tim Montague: Yeah, and that's awesome. And you know, your your base there in the Kavanaugh Peninsula, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
• 7:36
  Tim Montague: Well, a subset of the Upper Peninsula a place that is near and dear to my heart where I've been going for the last 20 years to, to ski in the winter and to camp in the summer. Just lovely nature. It's on the shores of Lake Superior, but not A, not necessarily at the epicentre of the solar industry. Certainly.
• 7:57
  Tim Montague: So when you look at the landscape, though, nationally here in the US, around agri solar? Well, first I guess we should we should tease apart agri solar from agriculture tags I grumble takes is much more common expression. And and then we also have pollinator friendly solar. But what is how do you differentiate? I guess agri solar and agriculture tax?
• 8:25
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah, great question. It's a hot question too, because it has implications on policymaking actually, how you define things. I see agri solar as kind of like the overarching umbrella that is inclusive of all forms of colocation, or integration of solar on agricultural landscapes. So maybe that's a rooftop solar on a barn, or maybe that's solar on a marginal field that's not in production.
• 8:52
  Alexis Pascaris: So Agra solar is this big umbrella that can include pollinator friendly habitat, and AP Ares. When you use the word agro tags, my mind thinks more like just great food production underneath and within the rows of the solar panels. So a very symbiotic and intentional relationship when talking about actual tax. Gotcha helpful.
• 9:13
  Tim Montague: Yeah, definitely.
• 9:13
  Tim Montague: And, you know, we we've had the American Solar grazing Association Aska on the show, a couple of times. That's a a fast growing segment of agri Voltex.
• 9:34
  Tim Montague: You know, where you're grazing sheep, primarily sheep, you can graze cattle also, it's just you have to use different construction methods and more robust construction to protect the array from from the cattle, which are, you know, potentially a hazard but, but anyway, in general, dual use solar is a wonderful thing. And I mean, a worst case we're taking cropland or subprime farmland or forested land and turning it into an energy project to help us clean the grid. And I have absolutely no qualms about converting industrial farmland. This is in the Midwest, corn and beans, right. 90% of Illinois was tallgrass prairie prior to European settlement. Now it is corn and beans. It's it's wonderful farmland. It's some of the most productive farmland in the world. But let's face it, there are a lot of chemical inputs to that type of farming.
• 10:43
  Tim Montague: It's very heavy on the land.
• 10:43
  Tim Montague: It's very heavy on the Mississippi and the Gulf of Mexico, where we have All this nutrients running off the land nutrients and pesticides right and and so when you are able to then take some of that land and put it into solar and do pollinator friendly or honey, or grazing or cropping. And we're gonna talk a little more about that. It's just a it's a nice way to to mix it up and, and and it's much lighter on the land, right? In theory it doesn't doesn't have to be you could do heavy, heavy input farming on a solar farm too. So it's we can't be we can't generalise too much.
• 11:31
  Tim Montague: But what is agri solar consulting? And what is your mission?
• 11:36
  Alexis Pascaris: I guess, or consulting is my platform, postgraduation I exited academia really sharp and excited and kind of fell flat on my face.
• 11:46
  Alexis Pascaris: Because there wasn't a job for me, there wasn't a place for me to really apply all the knowledge that I generated, studying the diffusion of agriculture tax, like where can I go, there was no solar company at the time, looking for a delegate to employ this mission.
• 12:03
  Alexis Pascaris: So I just created it myself. I launched in 2021. July. And so I'll step back into that I'm a social scientist and a policy specialist. So I apply that lens to the emerging article take industry. So at a high level, I'm using stakeholder engagement to inform policy and practices for huggable tech. So I use my research to remove barriers to development. And that can that looks different every day. Like I have the great fortune of working with a wide range of public and private partners on and will take research and development through our solar consulting. So for example, I've partnered with the American Farmland Trust to understand the potential for policy innovation Frogger will takes and the Northeast. So we we've, we're focused on the state of Connecticut, that's one of many states under the jurisdiction of fts efforts, we convened an advisory committee that has representation from Connecticut Farm Bureau, working lands Alliance, Yukon extension, we get all these wonderful people in the room, and they helped us develop and deploy a survey. So we're asking farmers and soar developers alike about their interests and concerns when it comes to farmland. So then we synthesise those insights, we develop recommendations, and we take those recommendations to regulators. So how we level and smooth the runway for honourable takes to be developed is by elevating stakeholder concerns.
• 13:24
  Alexis Pascaris: And that's like one small portion of the work I do here. I have, I can go on and on. I'm not sure how much you want to know.
• 13:34
  Tim Montague: Yeah, you know, I guess I would love to learn more about how you attack the problem, per se. We have on the one hand, we have industry, we have the solar develop burrs and that community, then we have landowners and farmers and ranchers. And and then there's this policy and authorities having jurisdiction perspectives on things. You know, in some places like New Jersey, they have my understanding is banned solar development on ag land, because, okay, New Jersey is a small state, it's very dense. So ag land is already a very precious resource. And they don't want to see the remaining ag land go to community solar or utility solar. And I get that.
• 14:30
  Tim Montague: But it probably is a both end, right, we probably can do appropriate agriculture on that land and solar farming and make it a win win. I mean, one of the cool things about solar is that it is great for the landowners, it you know, here in the Midwest, a landowner can triple their income by leasing their land to a solar developer, we're only going to convert a fraction of the landscape, we're talking one to 2% nationally is all we need to completely green the grid. And so first and foremost, communities don't need to, you know, worry that, hey, we're going to pave over the breadbasket. There's going to be plenty of land, we're super rich and land. It's just depends on the jurisdiction, like I mentioned in New Jersey, they're not super rich inland. It's a very small dense state. So thing you need to find a locally appropriate approach. And today that is okay. They're just putting their hand up saying okay, no solar on ag land. Maybe tomorrow, though, and it's a dynamic landscape, though. So how do you see the bigger landscape here in the US? What are some hotspots you mentioned Connecticut, which is I would imagine in a similar boat to New Jersey it also though is quite dense and relatively small in the greater scheme of things bigger than New Jersey, maybe.
• 16:50
  Tim Montague: But But yeah, paint a picture for us.
• 16:54
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah, great questions. You kind of highlighted it like it's not yes or no to solar on primary.
• 17:01
  Alexis Pascaris: That's how, how are we going to do it right. And we got to be proactive and strategic about that. So we make sure that the solar is leveraged to benefit the farmer and support Farm Viability. So thinking about the landscape, I see great pockets of innovation in the northeast and, and I associate that with, they have some market mechanisms that are really stimulating innovation, the solar industry side. So when I think about barriers, and opportunities for honourable tax across the landscape, I kind of compartmentalise my perspective.
• 17:39
  Alexis Pascaris: So I'll say like barriers for developers or barriers for farmers or for regulators, there's, it's so complex, but when I think about solar industry, adoption of agriculture tax, there's this liability of newness. That's its whole thing. Like what I mean by that is, developers want proof of concept. I got us all the time, like, is this cultivar going to thrive underneath this solar configurations? Like?
• 18:03
  Alexis Pascaris: That's a great question, and we have researchers working on that. But your learning curve shouldn't stop. This learning curve shouldn't stop innovation.
• 18:11
  Alexis Pascaris: But it is because it's creating this technical economic barrier.
• 18:14
  Alexis Pascaris: Like I don't know how to design the system to accommodate whatever is being cropped in this area. And I don't know what that means for my bottom line. I can't calculate financial return, how am I going to get this this isn't financial is upper management is not going to put a stamp on it. So this liability of newness is having a ripple effect on techno economic feasibility. And then that comes that trickles to political feasibility when you go to get solar on farmland permitted?
• 18:42
  Alexis Pascaris: Well, whose problem is that is that the Department of Environmental Protection? Is that Department of Agriculture, should they be speaking to each other who has to write my permits. So the developers, they have spoken to dozens and dozens of companies across different regions, different scales of operation, and they say this lack of cohesive view on agriculture tags is a huge roadblock, and it's just creating more time, it translates to more soft costs.
• 19:09
  Alexis Pascaris: And some are just saying, like, it's too much. It's too complex right now. But on the flip side, there's all these motivators or drivers that are pushing innovation, like you eat, like you open, like talking about that observed observability of benefits, like, wow, the potential for ecosystem services, I can leverage that to win better projects and deliver more benefits to communities.
• 19:34
  Alexis Pascaris: Developers care about that. They care about PR, they care about long term reputation. And so they're being pushed by public pressure to innovate. And we're seeing that market mechanisms really matter. Like I said, the pockets of innovation, especially in Massachusetts, they have a feed in tariff that's offering six cents per kilowatt hour of edible tax.
• 19:55
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah, that's the language of developers, they move to make that happen. And so it's taking root across the country, but it's being slowed by these knowledge gaps, and socio political barriers, which is part of my mission is like why I'm pressing so hard, and yelling so loudly about market mechanisms and information sharing and cross sector partnerships, like to gain traction, we need to work across barriers. And there's a whole toolkit of policy, policy mechanisms that we have. And I can talk more in depth about that. But at the end of the day, we're at this point, and I look back, and I love to study like socio technical transitions and the diffusion of innovations. I totally geek out about that stuff, and applying it to agro tags, we're at a point we're just really trying to make it real and functional and cost effective. And that's how we're going to smooth the runway.
• 20:48
  Tim Montague: So I'm glad you mentioned this programme in Massachusetts, I was not aware that there was a feed in tariff incentivizing agricole tax. That is absolutely the the thing that will get developers attention.
• 21:01
  Tim Montague: And, you know, we also have pollinator checklists and and those are very good thing. They make it tangible and relatively easy for developers to apply something that's relatively ecologically sound and vetted by ecologists and, and, and other biologists. But let's talk about who your customers are. There's there's many needs in the world, but who do you target and let's talk a little more about what exactly you're doing for them.
• 21:41
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah, is a great question because I've been playing bumper cards like trying to figure out what my boundaries are what my services so I just celebrated a year recently, and I haven't been advertising myself. It's though have been word of mouth and drawing upon existing networks and relationships, which has been so beautiful and fruitful. But I've seen an uptick, probably the last six month of inquiries from solar developers. So beyond my research efforts with the doctor, Dr. Barron Gafford, and Dr. Andrea Gerlach, at Gerlach at University of Arizona. I've got this full research portfolio, but now developers are knocking on the door. So I've pivoted, and I'm starting to take my expert knowledge into the common domain and really taking my research findings and helping developers so what that looks like, I can't do it alone.
• 22:35
  Alexis Pascaris: So I've partnered with Sandbach solar, which is a developer based out of Fort Collins, Colorado who has experience in agricultural research and development. So Ian score the founder of say, Max or, and Thomas Hickey, who's a horticulturalist leading honourable take research at Colorado State University, we've come together to develop a software tool, and we've branded that software tool speed. So speed is like a fully functioning parametric software with a front facing web interface. And it allows us to do a holistic design and analysis of an outer voltaic system. And that's fine and dandy we can we have outputs of PV energy, we know what the ground level of radiance looks like that informs the suitable crops for that site. And it is integrated with enrols. Sam tool. So we have this economic crop based tool. And we use that to answer developers question.
• 23:31
  Alexis Pascaris: So they'll come to us I've ranging from, I have a discrete project or discrete location we want to integrate with crops to, I'm interested in aerial tags, but I don't know where to start.
• 23:43
  Alexis Pascaris: And we feel those inquiries, and we triangulate all of our expertise. So I walk them through the stakeholder engagement process and who needs to be at the table and how to engage farmers properly and integrate their concerns. Thomas is the mastermind in the modelling, and he's a core calculus. So he understands implications on crop production.
• 24:02
  Alexis Pascaris: Ian has a awesome skill set to so we come together to help developers move from like this concept to construction. And it's so exciting to see the research turned into application and actual megawatts of actual takes deployed. It's a dream come true, for sure. So that's like, how we're answering questions that are coming in using the software using our experience. And at the end of the day, we want to turn this software into a Software as a Service. So it's not just us, we want to have Imagine if every developer had access to this, and they can answer their own questions and get moving faster on interval texts.
• 24:36
  Tim Montague: Hey, everybody, thanks for listening to the Clean Power Hour or viewing it on YouTube. We do have a great YouTube channel. If you're not subscribed, please go to clean power dot group, and hit that YouTube icon and subscribe to our channel. Of course, you can find all of our content on your favourite audio platform as well. So please give us a rating and review back to the show.
• 24:56
  Tim Montague: That's awesome. I look forward to learning more about spade.
• 25:01
  Tim Montague: And, you know, we've had Jack's on the on the show Jack solar garden, Google that. He's a farmer who you know, is interested in solar and, you know, has gotten involved with some academic organisations.
• 25:21
  Tim Montague: He's based in Colorado, which seems to be a hotspot. Now you have sandbox there. The University of Arizona is obviously a thought leader in this arena as well. We should mention the agri solar Clearing House, which is a programme funded by the Department of Energy at the end of the day, I believe. And we'll be bringing them on the show here in the coming months. You know, one of our challenges is that the US is so big and there's so many climate regions and different soil types. And, you know, just in Illinois in you know, you see several different climate zones.
• 26:02
  Tim Montague: We're a long and skinny state six hours tip to toe by car. And in the north. We have north and central part of the state. We have corn and bean farming very, very fertile corn and bean farming. And then in the southern part, it's Hillier, and there's less fertile soil and that's more range land. So we're growing cattle and horses. And, and so of course, it will differ how you approach an agri solar or agro Voltex project in different regions. And one of the one of the things is that farmers are smart people, and they have to eke out a living and so They're going to gravitate to products and practices that make good economic sense for them. There's a reason we're not using our best farmland. To grow broccoli, for example, generally speaking, we're growing corn and beans were growing these cash crops that are heavily subsidised, but nonetheless produce better income for the farmer. And that's, you know, money talks.
• 27:13
  Tim Montague: It's not easy to be a farmer, but it can be very lucrative.
• 27:17
  Tim Montague: And now we have this option for farmers to be solar farmers.
• 27:21
  Tim Montague: It's, you know, I know I'm a little bit of a broken record on this front, but it is good for landowners, because rural communities are struggling to keep the next generation on the land. Young people want to go to the city where the action is, where the jobs are, where the economic opportunities are. And so there is this just huge gravitational force pulling people out of rural America. And that's a problem in so many ways. So, so there is a lifeline here, I think, with clean energy and agriculture tax. And we need more credible information from people like you about how do I get from A to Z? Right? It's one thing to say, oh, yeah, we're gonna do agri solar here. No questions asked. Okay, well, devils in the details. What crops are viable under single axis tracker solar arrays, for example? And so let's talk about some of those nitty gritties.
• 28:20
  Tim Montague: Like, what crops are viable in, you know, in the in the greater spectrum, and you could talk specifically about certain regions. But what is what are you seeing out there that, you know, you think has legs so to speak?
• 28:39
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah, the million dollar question what's gonna grow underneath my solar panel. While pointing to the seminal research happening down with the University of Arizona, when we're speaking about drought impacted regions, we've seen like I think it's a three fold increase in yields of Chilton poppers and certain tomato cultivars. And that's interesting and great. And that's applicable for their region. And then we start to branch out a little out a little bit more semi arid region like Colorado, we're seeing great responsiveness of pasture grasses happening at Jack solar garden. And other research done by Thomas Hickey at Colorado State University's showing different impacts not just on like, I'm talking about crop yield, but we're talking about like, soil temperature, and that matters in the long term. So like soil temperatures decrease underneath the panels, and that has implications on water, water demands of plants. So there's so many technical benefits that go beyond just the yield of the crop. So we're talking about specialty crops predominantly, I have yet to really see commodity crops, data at a pilot test study underneath panels. But if we move up to the northeast, the University of Montana study, Vermont did a study on saffron.
• 30:00
  Alexis Pascaris: And if you look at the price point of saffron, it's just enormously lucrative, like, I encourage you to go take a look at that study how saffron not only performed technically, for like agronomically. But economically, so that's a really interesting specialty crop application. That was kind of like a really general overlay of the land in the US there are more applications with viticulture in Europe, they are looking at wheat and higher growing crops, higher growing commodity crops. But I will say the US is a little limited.
• 30:37
  Alexis Pascaris: We're a little bit behind in terms of greater deployment of pilot test studies in every single region, I want every single state to test their top three agricultural products underneath panels, like let's go why are we waiting around for this proof of concept? It's great when things work down in Arizona, but what's going to work here in Michigan, we need researchers on that right away.
• 30:56
  Alexis Pascaris: So I think that is that feedback loop between research and development, this r&d feedback loop like developers are hesitant until we see that data.
• 31:06
  Alexis Pascaris: So that is the million dollar question what's going to work?
• 31:09
  Alexis Pascaris: We have a few awesome case studies, but we need more of them. So I want to be able to speak more intelligently to that question in the near future. And I hope my audience there isn't disappointing this I'm waiting to say broccoli is gonna go on twit and grow twice as big underneath solar panels. I'd love to say that but we need more research.
• 31:26
  Tim Montague: And let's talk a little more about spade I guess if if I'm a developer, and let's you know, let's say I am looking at, you know, some 1000s of of acres I mean, big solar projects are Now above 10,000 acres in the US. And granted Historically, most of that has been on relatively Zurich land out west. But it is coming to the breadbasket. There's a 13,000 acre Project in Indiana, called mammoth solar. And but if I'm a developer, how hard is it to use spade? And and do I have to hire you to do that? Or how does that work? And what will I learn?
• 32:12
  Alexis Pascaris: So right now, spade is in a beta version. So it has a front facing web interface. But it's limited in functionality to what we have on the back end. And that's just where we are in development. We started a year ago, we been really scrappy, using Department of Energy funds to make our way to where we are now. So right now, the tool doesn't satisfy the full range of questions that developer they're asking us. So that's why we've kind of use it in house to help consult on project. So what you'll see if you type, if you go to sandboxes, website, or mine, there's a link to the agonal takes modelling software, what you see is different than what we see. And what Thomas can do, on his end is hone in on a specific plot of land pay, we're in Illinois. This is so it pulls in a climate file. And and and that will inform not only the radiance that is received by the panels, but the ground level as well. So okay, I'm in this location. And then we configure the array, do you want to single axis track? Or do you want vertical bifacial panels? How do you want the system to look, how far are we spacing, the rows, all of that technical details built into the model. And then on the outside on the output, we have a bankable energy estimate, we know how much the system's gonna produce. And we also know the ground level irradiance in terms of photon photosynthetic photon flux density. And that's a fancy word, but what it means is, you can take the PPFD the photon flux density, and compare it to three PPFD levels that crops need to thrive. So we're able to inform a suitable range of crops based on your location, and based on the configuration of the array. So then we take that to a developer and help them work on a farm plan, this is what the system needs to look like to accommodate this level of production, based on your location, and based on maybe your limitations, like I have to achieve this level of power output. So we work within the parameters of the developer to deliver them viable agriculture, take application, and, and it's, it's a heavy lift through for three people. But we're just gaining traction, we're just getting started. And as I said, within a year from now, we want other people to access this. We don't want it to be all in house, like we want developers using it like they use Helio scope or, or PVWatts. Like go in and build your article, take system and then take that to your finance or and take that to your farmer and get moving as we need to make some make some strides here.
• 34:50
  Tim Montague: Yeah, you know, it's it's very heady days with the IRA, the inflation Reduction Act, right. There's, we're at this confluence of events, energy prices are going up, technology prices are coming down. We have good federal, and in many places, state incentives for solar. Now some specific incentives for agricultural techs and pollinator friendly solar. We just need more and better tools to bring it all together to make it easier to go from concept to this is a you know, buildable fundable design.
• 35:22
  Tim Montague: Well, what kind of a reception Are you getting? You know, from all of these constituents? One of our concerns as solar developers is, of course, nimbyism, not in my backyard, there are places where there is pushback against even community solar, these are here in the Midwest 30 acre projects. But what what all feedback are you getting from the various stakeholders around the country?
• 35:59
  Alexis Pascaris: Well, from a developer perspective, they're, they're really bumping out, bumping up against that public opposition to solar on farmland.
• 36:05
  Alexis Pascaris: That's huge. And it's relatable.
• 36:09
  Alexis Pascaris: I mean, I, I walk up and down my street and my neighbours are grazing cattle. And I think Man, like how would a solar array look over the top of these fuzzy cows? I don't know if I'd enjoy that it would take it would erase the cultural heritage of the kuna. So coming from an animal tech expert to say that like I don't know if I'd want to see that in my backyard, like, imagine others who have different backgrounds and different priorities and interests. So but developers are saying they can't deliver a project that speaks to the interests of rural communities, there's going to be pressing resistance to solar My data speak to that their experience speaks to that. And I think I like to think that the emerging research and the momentum building around agri solar and pointing the floor clearing house, definitely we can take that momentum at to the committee level in those local conversations in the in the permitting process, we can elevate case studies and highlight how this is being leveraged for farm viability, not convert farmland into energy production, but to inject economic opportunity into rural communities. So I think your question Can was around the stakeholder perception around this nimbyism, and actually conducted a study in which we surveyed rural land owners in both Houghton County where I'm located. And Lubbock, Texas, based on our original research project, I was asking the same question like would you be more interested or supportive of solar if it incorporate an agricultural function, and I measured? Folks were 81% more likely to support solar, if it were, and we'll take two will use. And that's incredible. And that's at two counties across the entire US. And folks highlighted in my survey study like that benefits to farmers was the leading motivator for that that attitude change, like they wanted to see solar benefit farmers not take farmland on a production. So it's how you tell that narrative is important to community members, just like me, if you told me that my neighbour wanted solar over the, the tops of his cows, then I would like it. But if it was imposed, it'd be different. And that cultural heritage and that narrative around how solar goes on in farmland is so important. Yeah, I
• 38:32
  Tim Montague: mean, one of the phenomenon is that the landowner is absentee, you know, upwards of 50% of landowners in rural America are absentee. And so it's the neighbours that have to deal with the, the impact, and there are various impacts, right, we're talking about taking farmland, potentially, and converting it to say pollinator friendly solar, which would be a bare minimum, really, in my, in my opinion, very, very great ecological benefits, right? The, you know, you're going to get much greater water absorption on that land than you would have from industrial cropping. You're going to get more biodiversity, it's going to be more friendly to butterflies and birds and other insects. And of course, soil micro organisms, and that that micro flora is going to be very invigorated by converting the land from ag to pollinator friendly solar. But the stakeholders, the neighbours, they still see it as taking cropland out of cropping.
• 39:46
  Tim Montague: And they don't have a good, warm, fuzzy about that, right?
• 39:51
  Tim Montague: They, they already are feeling the pressure of development. And there's a myriad of types of development going on, unroll America, there's pipelines, and there's power lines, and there's wind farms and their solar farms, and of course, other industrial uses. But if we can, if we can make it easier, more practical for developers to say, Yeah, we would love to do specialty cropping on this land, which is wonderfully, you know, fertile ground. And it just a question of making it pencil right for the farmer and making it easy to move their equipment around the array. And, you know, you're talking several times in the course of a cycle, right that you have to, you have to run a tractor, perhaps pulling other gear behind it in order to do this. And so there's a little bit of a disconnect. Solar construction isn't quite there right out right out of the box.
• 41:01
  Tim Montague: And that's why this this r&d, we are in an r&d phase, and we need to lean into that and do more of that and figure out what works where and what types of construction methods are going to be favoured. So I love it that you, you know found that yeah, landowners will more readily embrace solar, if there is dual use makes sense. Makes perfect sense. And now we just need more people to know about agri solar consulting and the work that's going on in your sphere of influence. So what What else are you working on?
• 41:44
  Tim Montague: Who else would you like to hear from? Like? Who do you want to hear from? Who's a good customer for you? Yeah, well, let's just go there.
• 41:54
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah. Yeah.
• 41:54
  Alexis Pascaris: Well, thank you for all of that.
• 41:59
  Alexis Pascaris: You highlighted the agri solar clearing house and I'm happy you did because it's one of my favourite partners. I have the pleasure of working with Dr.
• 42:05
  Alexis Pascaris: Stacy Peterson. She's the Director of Energy programmes at the National Centre for appropriate technology. And as you said, that's a doe Seto funded project. So I support the development of informational resources. Currently working on the development of a policy matrix. We highlight case studies, we organised field trips and roundtables and webinars and really started to elevate the voices around alcohol tax, and that's one of the projects that are near and dear to my heart. I highlighted American Farmland Trust, I also spoke about my work with spade, I didn't really speak to the work I'm doing with the Dr. Greg Barron Gafford group at the University of Arizona. So the USDA funded the USDA NIFA grant is in funded a project called escapes which might be relevant to some listeners scapes is a acronym for sustainably co locating, co locating agriculture and photovoltaic electricity systems. This is like three to four universities that come together to advance agriculture takes across the country. And I've been leading a national solar industry assessment, they're really trying to understand what is challenging the diffusion of Apple takes in the US from a developer perspective. And so I'm like, what looking at what drivers are pushing innovation, what levers we need to pull, what policy mechanisms are going to really expedite diffusion.
• 43:27
  Alexis Pascaris: And that's where I've been at the past couple of months is like deep in the dirt of like policy mechanisms, and stimulating diffusion from a developer's perspective. So I bring that lens coupled with the work I'm doing with the American Farmland Trust, bring it to the agri Flora clearing house, use it to answer developer questions through spade and my partnership with sandbox solar. And now I'm looking at the horizon of my growth and where I want to continue to go. And I want to see myself satisfying both types of demands demands for better social science research and greater direction in terms of policy for agriculture tags. But I also want to have a hand in development, I want to see application, I don't want to just write any scripts in my ivory tower. It's like, let's go out into communities, I want to come to community meetings where agriculture product is being discussed, or there's there's opposition to solar and farmland. And I'd love to present an alternative narratives in those communities.
• 44:25
  Alexis Pascaris: So I'd love to see myself working towards development and helping folks who are actually on the ground trying to build these projects make it happen.
• 44:35
  Alexis Pascaris: So it's hard to see it's so fluid, and I'm so receptive to everything that comes my way. So if you're listening, and you're interested, please don't be shy, I'm, I'm growing, I want to build a team. So I don't want to continue to do this alone. So if you're not gonna take expert and you don't have a job, please call me. I need help. They we've got a huge mission and a lot of problems to solve. And the clock is ticking. So that's just my plug for I need help.
• 45:00
  Tim Montague: Excellent. Well, we'll, we'll let people know how to reach you, I want to encourage our listeners to check out all of our content at Clean Power hour.com. Please give us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify and make comments on our YouTube channel and subscribe to our YouTube. This will all help others find this content. And we are growing the Clean Energy Transition one podcast at a time, one guest at a time. And we need 10s and 10s of 1000s more people to get into the energy transition. So you can make a difference by liking and subscribing. So Alexis, how can people reach you? What is the best way? And and we'll we'll also put your info in the show notes.
• 45:47
  Alexis Pascaris: Great. Thank you so much, Tim. This is such an honour and pleasure. Easy way is by going to Agra solar consulting.com. And there I have both my phone number and email address. And I also have a portfolio where you can find all my publications. My email address is pasted on all the publications as well. I respond to emails, phone calls. If you can find where I'm hiding in the forest, you can knock on my door. But I challenge that.
• 46:15
  Alexis Pascaris: Yeah, I'll leave it at that.
• 46:21
  Tim Montague: Great. Well, I want to thank you Alexis Pascaris, Director, Founding Director of Agrisolar Consulting for coming on the show. I'm Tim Montague. Let's grow solar and storage. Thanks Tim.