Latest / Cry It Out Loud: Navigating Infertility, Miscarriage, Stillbirth, Infant Loss & Pregnancy After Loss / Dr. Lora Shahine on Fertility, Trying to Conceive, Loss, and Hope for Families

Transcript

Dr. Lora Shahine on Fertility, Trying to Conceive, Loss, and Hope for Families · Cry It Out Loud: Navigating Infertility, Miscarriage, Stillbirth, Infant Loss & Pregnancy After Loss

• 0:12
  Crying Out Loud, a podcast by Chasing the Rainbows with your
• 0:19
  host Bernice Quisenberry. Welcome to cry it out loud
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  podcast by chasing the rainbows where we shine light on the
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  realities around infertility, miscarriage, still birth and
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  infant loss while offering hope, healing and resources for
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  families everywhere who have experienced any type of baby
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  loss. Today we are have a truly
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  special guest doctor Laura Shaheen.
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  She's a board certified reproductive End chronologist,
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  OBGYN author, podcast host, and passionate advocate for
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  fertility, health, and Wellness. Doctor Shaheen has helped
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  countless families through fertility struggles, and she
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  continues to amplify conversations around fertility,
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  Women's Health, and baby loss. Her work brings both science and
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  compassion to families who need it most, and today we're honored
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  to have her share her expertise and her heart with us.
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  Thank you so much for being here.
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  Oh, yeah. And thank you so much for that
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  wonderful introduction. It's a real honor to be here.
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  You're doing such great work. Thank you.
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  Thank you so much, Laura. That means the world.
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  And you know, for you joining us today, your work in reproductive
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  end chronology and fertility has already touched so many lives.
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  And I know our listeners are eager to hear your insights.
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  So to begin, could you share a little bit about your journey?
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  What inspired you to specialize in fertility medicine and become
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  such a strong advocate for families facing loss and
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  infertility? Well, thanks.
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  Yes, it is definitely a long journey.
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  A lot of years studying and a lot of exams in medical school.
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  I really enjoyed a lot of different things, but I was very
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  drawn to Women's Health and I loved procedures and surgery.
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  So OBGYN is like the right residency for me.
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  I did that at UCSF in San Francisco.
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  I love delivering babies. I loved caring for women for
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  menopause and just like this breath of help in OBGYN, but I
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  really was drawn to reproductive endocrinology and infertility.
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  I love the technology, I love the constant learning.
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  I loved helping people at such a vulnerable time in their life.
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  And so in order to do that, it's a three-year fellowship.
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  And I did that at Stanford University and was so fortunate
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  to start an amazing practice, Pacific Northwest Fertility in
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  Seattle in 2009. And I've been there ever since.
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  So a long journey, but really enjoyed it.
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  And you know, ironically enough, I was a fertility Dr. that could
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  not get pregnant. So I struggled with infertility
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  myself and did a lot of the tests and treatments that I help
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  patients with everyday. IUISIVF, multiple embryo
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  transfers. I'm very fortunate to have two
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  children, but it was definitely a journey and looking back on
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  how vulnerable I felt, how much shame I felt and sort of being a
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  success driven person that couldn't meet my goal.
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  I really wanted to help other people understand.
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  And so that's the drive towards education and being active on
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  social media, having my own Brave and Curious podcast,
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  writing my own books about infertility and miscarriage.
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  It it really comes from a passion to just help people
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  understand and feel less alone, just like what you are doing
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  here. Thank you so much, Laura, and
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  thank you for sharing all that, especially your, you know,
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  personal experience. And you know, that really does
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  shape you as a physician when you're not only treating, you
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  know, people that are living with infertility every day, but
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  then you're also facing your own.
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  I can't imagine. Yeah, it was very lots of
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  emotions, everything from anger, frustration, you know, I mean, I
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  really empathize with my patients that, like, are
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  struggling to get pregnant and they go to the grocery store and
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  every single person they see has a big pregnant belly like it.
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  It just permeates every single thought and, you know, really
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  makes you doubt your purpose. It feels like it should just be
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  a given that we should just be able to get pregnant and have a
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  baby because we certainly are taught in health class, like how
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  easy it is to get pregnant. We have to really, you know,
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  focus on not getting pregnant before we're ready.
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  And contraception feels, you know, it works really, really
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  well. So that leads you to feel like
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  you're in complete control of your fertility.
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  So when you stop contracepting or you pivot to wanting to try
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  to conceive and it doesn't happen on your terms, you feel,
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  you know, gypped, angry, frustrated, like this is just
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  not the way it's supposed to be. In the movie, someone you know
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  comes home with a positive pregnancy test and the very next
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  scene in the movie is delivering and having a cute baby in the
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  nursery. Like that's what we're shown.
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  And I think over my 20 year career in this field, finally
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  I'm seeing people talk about miscarriage and talk about
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  stillbirths and talk about IVFI Think that is one of the
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  benefits of social media. There's lots of pros and cons,
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  but just, you know, people sharing their stories help you
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  realize like wow, I'm not the only person that has faced this
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  and I I see that positive outcome of sharing.
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  Right, and you do, you find your community, you know, and social
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  media, like you're saying, you know, it can be hard and, and
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  triggering seeing pregnancy announcement after pregnancy
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  announcement when you're trying to conceive.
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  But then also finding the community of how we got
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  connected, you know, Laura on Instagram and you know, hearing
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  the voices and seeing the people who have all, you know, been
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  through this and have experienced the same.
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  And, you know, just seeing validated and seen that is huge
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  when you're on this journey, especially when you're feeling
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  like a failure and you're feeling all that shape blame.
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  And yeah, absolutely. Exactly.
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  Yeah. So how you know how did you like
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  process and work through the shame and blame feelings you
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  know when you were on your own journey?
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  You know, probably not very well.
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  Medicine teaches us very much to compartmentalize and just like
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  focus on what's in front of you and not really deal with all the
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  feelings. You know, because you have to go
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  from maybe in the ER like treating a gunshot wound to like
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  the next patient that you're seeing is just, you know, a
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  little baby with a rash or something.
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  Or, you know, in labor and delivery, you are delivering
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  this beautiful family. Everything goes well, the baby's
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  great, the mom's great. And then, you know, the next
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  patient that you go see is actually, you know, delivering a
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  still birth. And it's like a totally
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  different experience, right? So you learn to compartmentalize
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  in order to function and do what you need to do.
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  And so I feel like I tackled infertility like I did, you
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  know, studying for medical school or trying to get into a
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  fellowship at Stanford, just kind of like, you know, I, I can
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  do this and like knuckling it and not really processing the
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  feelings. And I, I do try to help my
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  patients, not only with the treatments that we're doing,
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  like, hey, these, this is what is open to you.
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  We can do IUI, we can do IVF, we can do donor egg or surrogacy.
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  Like I talk about all these things, but I do try at every
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  visit to sort of at least check in on the emotional piece.
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  You know, are you still finding joy?
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  How's your relationship with your partner?
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  You know, how are things at work?
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  How are you sleeping? Because this trauma of feeling
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  gypped and feeling frustrated, it doesn't just go away when you
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  have a baby in your arms. Then you're processing, like not
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  sleeping and navigating, you know, balancing the rest of your
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  life with this new, you know, little baby.
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  And so I really would love for people to seek emotional support
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  and mental health resources as they're going through the
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  physical part of infertility and miscarriage, because I feel like
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  it can often be forgotten. And I really, you know, it it,
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  it's hard because you don't have a lot of time in these visits.
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  But even if you can just ask the question, like, what are you
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  doing to support yourself? What did you do last weekend to
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  bring joy? You're like, Oh yeah, actually I
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  need to think about those things.
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  Yeah. And it is so important, you
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  know, sleep and all of those things, you know, when you're on
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  this journey, you know, the secondary and like work and your
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  partner and not going through any of the secondary losses that
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  are so affiliated with, you know, infertility and then
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  everything around it. And you're right talking about
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  that and working through it and processing it.
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  Absolutely. I know and I, you know, I almost
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  felt like when we on our journey, it was after pregnancy,
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  after loss, then I was finally able to process everything from
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  all the secondary infertility because you almost just keep
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  putting 1 foot in front of the other.
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  Just kind of like going through the motions and doing everything
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  that you can like, you know, in your control to try to keep
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  things moving or to get to the outcome.
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  You know that you're trying to, it's just, it's exhausting.
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  And then when it does catch up, it just like feels like a
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  freight train, like hit you in the face.
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  Absolutely, inertia is a powerful thing.
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  So if you are going from IUI to IUI or egg retrieval to egg
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  retrieval or embryo transfer to embryo transfer, it feels
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  comforting because you have like the focus of like, you know,
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  making sure you have the medications and going from the
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  appointments and kind of getting that that follow up.
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  And sometimes one of the best things that I can do is just
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  really encourage people to pause for a little bit.
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  I mean, I know that's hard because the age is important and
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  egg and sperm, you know, time is important, but sometimes, you
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  know, just sort of saying like it's a that the process can be a
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  little bit addictive almost. You just are focused on the
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  process and not the overall picture.
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  Like, oh gosh, like I actually took out a second mortgage to do
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  this third IVF cycle. And I haven't really thought
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  about, you know, big picture. You know, maybe I want to pivot
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  and actually think about a life of being child free or I want to
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  take a pause and look at adoption.
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  Or like you don't want to have patients go through just this,
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  you know, hamster wheel and then have no resources left to build
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  their family. Whether it's emotional
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  resources, you know, physical resources, financial resources.
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  But asking for that pause is really, really tough 'cause it
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  makes you think about the big picture and think about feelings
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  that you often don't want to. I know.
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  And you're right. So spawn on about the inertia
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  and just like going through the motions and then when you do and
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  it's like, yeah. Yeah, big stuff.
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  Big stuff, yeah. With like the technology and
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  things like that today, I mean, like you're saying like we're so
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  much more in tune with, I feel like from, you know, 20-30 years
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  ago with our health and things like we almost take more
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  proactive approach with it coming in educating ourselves
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  and you know, hopefully with reputable information and things
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  like that. But then the technology too has
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  become so much more advanced. And you know, what would you
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  say, you know, Laura, that you like, that you love about the
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  technology or or where things are?
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  Heading Oh my gosh, well doing this, you know, for decades, it
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  is so much fun to practice now as opposed to 15 or 20 years
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  ago. So, you know, it used to be the
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  success rates with an embryo transfer were in the single
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  digits. And even if you transferred
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  multiple embryos, we were just so excited if somebody got
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  pregnant and if they happen to get triplets, we're like, oops,
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  sorry, like, oh gosh, let's figure this out.
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  And now we can have as high as a 6065% chance of live birth with
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  a single embryo transfer, depending on of course, so many
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  factors. But like if that embryo has been
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  screened for chromosome balance and age of the people that are
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  getting pregnant and you know, lots of other extenuating
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  things. But to wow, to be that high of a
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  success rate with a single embryo transfer and not having
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  anybody have to risk twins, triplets, and just how hard that
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  pregnancy can be on the person who's pregnant and the babies,
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  you know, that is a true joy. And, you know, even just
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  understanding and helping people go through the process with less
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  side effects. Like, you know, when I was a
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  fellow at Stanford, we were, you know, routinely rounding on
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  people that had ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome,
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  really feeling bloated and nauseated and, you know, just
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  sick after an egg. People.
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  We were doing a lot of fresh embryo transfers.
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  So if you get pregnant when your ovaries haven't recovered fully
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  from like stimulation, the pregnancy hormone can make that
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  hyperstimulation syndrome go well into your first trimester.
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  So I rarely do fresh embryo transfers anymore.
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  They're almost always frozen embryo transfers so that you can
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  focus on a great outcome and a good number of embryos before
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  you're actually trying to get pregnant.
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  And so you're getting pregnant, you know, in a, you know,
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  recovered state as opposed to like right after you did this
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  stimulation. You know, those huge advances
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  have just made the process so much more successful and quite
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  honestly, so much easier on the people that are going through
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  IVF. Absolutely.
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  I know without all those side effects and because the first
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  trimester is hard enough and then to add that level is just I
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  can't. Yeah, yeah.
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  Wow. Now you know, what else have you
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  know, seen the progression and and where we're kind of headed
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  like, you know, what is what is the future of, you know, IVF or
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  you know. Any cuts?
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  I think something that is really been exciting about
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  understanding reproduction and genetics is the understanding
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  that the vast majority of miscarriages are related to the
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  embryo and the chromosome imbalance or genetic issues
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  within the embryo, that it's not the person who is pregnant
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  fault. Like even the word miscarry is
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  just got to be changed. It should just be pregnancy not
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  continuing, you know, or, or embryo not, you know, going to
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  be a healthy baby. It shouldn't be the woman is
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  miss or messing up carrying the pregnancy.
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  And we know this from being able to, you know, do genetic testing
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  on, you know, miscarriages and pregnancy tissue and realizing
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  that up to 60 to 80% of the time it's a chromosome imbalance.
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  You know, half of the chromosomes come from our the
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  egg that we come from and half come from the sperm.
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  And if at fertilization there's an imbalance, there's too many
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  copies of #7 chromosome missing number, you know, 18.
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  You can have an an embryo develop and divide and turn into
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  a blastocyst and implant and even get to 6 to 8 weeks of
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  pregnancy, but the body will figure it out.
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  It'll stop developing. And then for people who are
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  still miscarrying and they do that testing and the chromosomes
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  are balanced, that doesn't automatically mean that there's
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  something wrong with that person.
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  There's incredible research going on, specifically at
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  Stanford right now, but you know, around the world doing
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  whole genome sequencing on miscarriages that are chromosome
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  balanced, looking for single gene mutations, like little tiny
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  mutations that you can't pick up on big chromosomes.
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  It's like a stack of Legos of genes that are leading to
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  miscarriage. So that doesn't help my patients
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  sitting in my office this week to sort of say, oh, let's see if
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  you've got a mutation on chromosome number six, that
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  could been the reason that this miscarried.
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  And maybe, you know, we can, you know, check for that the next
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  time you make embryos, right? Like that information isn't
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  helping the patients who are trying to get pregnant right
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  now, but it will in the future. And even just the concept that
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  this research is being done and sharing that with people to say,
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  you know, we know that this is the case.
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  You know my book on miscarriage is called Not Broken and you
• 17:53
  know an Approachable guide to miscarriage it is.
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  Your. Body is not broken and failing
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  you. I mean, of course there's things
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  we have to look for. Of course there's anatomic
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  issues that cause miscarriage. Of course, significant
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  hypothyroidism can cause miscarriage, but for the vast
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  majority of people, it's something within the embryo.
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  And just to be able to share that with people and help them
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  feel less of this shame and blame like you were talking
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  about earlier is, is just a gift.
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  And it's a wonderful way to be able to, to share with patients.
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  This is not your fault. And I do share with people, you
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  know, most people that are getting pregnant will go on to
• 18:37
  have their baby or their family because so much is going, right.
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  The egg is ovulating, the egg and sperm like each other.
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  You know, implantation is happening.
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  And if it's really just that embryo, like the next time that
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  you try, no matter how scary it is, it's a brand new
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  opportunity. You know, it's a brand new egg,
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  a brand new sperm, a brand new embryo, brand new uterine
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  lining. As long as we're not missing
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  something that we can control and just to so be able, being
• 19:06
  able to practice in a day and age where there's less shame,
• 19:11
  there's more science backing up why most miscarriages happen and
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  treatment outcomes are more successful today than they've
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  ever been before. I think that is an incredible,
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  you know, thing to witness through my career.
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  That is, I know, and you know, one thing is like spiraling out
• 19:34
  around not getting answers around what caused something
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  that is, you know, when you're processing, trying to heal, you
• 19:41
  know, and and all the things and like we're trying to work it out
• 19:43
  and you know, it's all those uncertainties and to almost
• 19:46
  isolate or no and get answers is half the half the battle when
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  you're going through this. Absolutely.
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  That feeling of being out of control is horrible, and that's
• 19:59
  where a lot of the shame and blame comes from.
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  Like I've got to be doing something wrong if I can figure
• 20:05
  out what it is. And then change that one
• 20:09
  variable in the next pregnancy or the next time I try to
• 20:12
  conceive, I'm not going to feel as bad.
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  But there is a that is temporarily comforting you, but
• 20:20
  in the long term, it can really backfire.
• 20:23
  It's like a spiral of, you know, trying to hang on to that
• 20:28
  control, whether it's like you saw an Instagram post and it
• 20:30
  says everybody should stop eating gluten in order to try to
• 20:34
  get pregnant. OK.
• 20:36
  There's some science that, of course, if you have celiac
• 20:39
  disease that that is an inflammatory condition.
• 20:42
  And if you can eliminate gluten, your immune system is going to
• 20:45
  work better. And that really can decrease the
• 20:47
  risk of miscarriage. Yes, that is true.
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  But for people without celiac disease, making them eliminate
• 20:55
  pasta, which might be the most amazing comfort food and really
• 21:00
  laser focusing in on that. If you accept that, and that is
• 21:03
  what I'm going to change and then the next month you don't
• 21:05
  get pregnant, guess who you blame?
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  Not the influencer that shared some study and twisted the, you
• 21:11
  know, summary to make a point. You're going to blame yourself.
• 21:15
  Like it must have been that salad dressing at the restaurant
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  and I forgot to ask if it had gluten in it.
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  That's why I didn't get pregnant or that's why I had another
• 21:24
  miscarriage. Like you're just going to blame
• 21:26
  yourself. So you have to get out of that
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  shame spiral and just realize there's things that you can
• 21:31
  control and that you can't control and just really try to
• 21:35
  be kind to yourself. Yes, yes.
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  And being gentle, I know. It's so interesting because we
• 21:41
  can do that to others and you know that other peers that are
• 21:45
  on the same journey as we are at the same time.
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  And you know, we give them so much like kindness and
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  gentleness and grace and everything.
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  And then when it comes to ourselves, sometimes we can just
• 21:55
  be the worst. Yeah, that is so true.
• 21:58
  Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy.
• 22:02
  Or I, I tell my patients, I'm like, it's really normal.
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  You are a huge target. Like it's easy to talk
• 22:08
  negatively to yourself. Or again, it's comforting to be
• 22:11
  like, oh, I did this wrong. Therefore I can change this and
• 22:14
  I can take control back. And, you know, I just try to
• 22:18
  really validate how normal that is.
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  Like it's a true coping mechanism, but just be aware of
• 22:22
  how damaging it can be in the long run.
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  Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, talking about
• 22:30
  things that what are some helpful things that someone who
• 22:36
  is starting on this journey, you know, they can do like secondary
• 22:41
  things outside of coming to see NRE Dock, you know, and talking
• 22:44
  about different options for them.
• 22:47
  Like what are some things that you would recommend, Laura?
• 22:50
  Absolutely. I think that it is really
• 22:53
  important to be healthy overall, whether you're trying to get
• 22:58
  pregnant or not, but thinking about lifestyle optimization is
• 23:02
  really important, whether you're doing fertility treatment or
• 23:05
  not. Hopefully it'll help you be
• 23:07
  healthier and your hormones work better so that you don't have to
• 23:11
  end up seeing the reproductive endocrinologist because you're
• 23:14
  pregnant. Or if you do get to that point
• 23:17
  and you are having to use high technology like IVF, it's going
• 23:20
  to have a higher success rate if you've already been working on
• 23:23
  this with balance and with moderation.
• 23:26
  So nutrition is important, exercise is important, sleep and
• 23:31
  stress management. So there's no one perfect diet.
• 23:36
  You know, if you look at my, I have a whole playlist on my
• 23:39
  YouTube channel on like lifestyle optimization, you will
• 23:42
  notice in every single video I'm like, hey, I want to share with
• 23:45
  you the one diet that's been associated with the highest
• 23:48
  fertility is the Mediterranean diet.
• 23:50
  But how to make sense? It's more fruits and vegetables,
• 23:56
  animal protein is OK, but less red meat.
• 23:59
  And it's kind of in balance like that.
• 24:02
  We know this like it kind of makes sense less processed
• 24:04
  foods. But also realize that everything
• 24:10
  in moderation. Like I tell people, if you can
• 24:13
  do things 80% of the time that comes from like a Eastern
• 24:16
  proverb, then 80% is perfection. So every once in a while, I
• 24:21
  mean, have that ice cream, right?
• 24:22
  Like alcohol, not good, not good for anything.
• 24:26
  But Oh my gosh, a glass of champagne when you're
• 24:29
  celebrating your girlfriend's birthday or a glass of wine you
• 24:32
  got to an amazing restaurant. Enjoy that, you know, but you
• 24:36
  know, not every single day and not, you know, a bottle when you
• 24:40
  do partake. Like everything in moderation,
• 24:44
  exercise very important. Like I see people really
• 24:47
  struggle with, oh, well, I'm after ovulation and before I
• 24:51
  know I have a positive pregnancy.
• 24:52
  So I'm just going to lie in bed all day and like not do anything
• 24:55
  to disrupt this implantation. That's not healthy, right?
• 24:59
  Like moving your body, of course, you might want to modify
• 25:02
  and, you know, do things that feel good to you and not
• 25:06
  necessarily push yourself, but just to completely not exercise
• 25:10
  like that's not good. And then also on the flip side,
• 25:13
  you really don't want to be over stressing your body right now.
• 25:17
  So I tell people like, this is not the time to train for a
• 25:20
  marathon. You know, I can't tell you how
• 25:22
  many of my patients are like, oh, I actually was going to do
• 25:25
  a, you know, an Iron Man, you know, and I'm like, honestly,
• 25:28
  like, I love that. But this is not the time to push
• 25:31
  your body. If you push your body to
• 25:33
  extremes or you're getting, you know, endorphin rushes and that
• 25:37
  runner's high, that feels great, but that's also pushing out
• 25:40
  stress hormones and that's going to throw off the hormonal access
• 25:43
  and throw off ovulation and things.
• 25:44
  So, you know, again, everything in moderation and sleep, Oh my
• 25:49
  gosh, sleep is I just cannot emphasize it enough.
• 25:55
  It is something that you should absolutely prioritize.
• 25:58
  I do have several videos on it on my YouTube channel, including
• 26:02
  the importance of noticing if you snore.
• 26:04
  If you snore, there's 90% chance that you have at least mild or
• 26:08
  significant sleep apnea. And that will, and that loss of
• 26:12
  oxygen in the middle of the night will absolutely disrupt
• 26:14
  your reproductive hormones and ovulation.
• 26:17
  So you know, little things like that.
• 26:19
  And then stress management, you cannot eliminate stress.
• 26:22
  We live in a stressful world, but you can work really hard on
• 26:26
  managing it. And what that means is finding
• 26:30
  ways that can help your nervous system go from like, you know,
• 26:33
  everything's on fire, fight or flight or freeze, running from a
• 26:36
  bear to like a more neutral, kind of like whether it's
• 26:40
  breathing, journaling, going for a walk in the woods, petting
• 26:44
  your dog or cat, you know, whatever it is to kind of reset.
• 26:50
  Working on that is really important because it's not like
• 26:55
  you just automatically know how to do these things and and you
• 26:58
  have to figure out what works so that when you are in that
• 27:01
  stressful fight or flight, you've got the tools at your,
• 27:05
  you know, your fingertips. For you, you know, and, and then
• 27:11
  you're ready, you can dive right in and you know, or if you're
• 27:14
  having panic attacks or whatever it kind of feels like for you,
• 27:18
  you know, or just spiraling out like you're saying, fight or
• 27:20
  flight and you know, how can you like get grounded again?
• 27:23
  And what can you do that you know works for you?
• 27:27
  Yeah, exactly. Or yeah.
• 27:29
  And I think also putting it into perspective because so many
• 27:31
  times it's like, you know, diet this, that and we sometimes,
• 27:36
  especially when our end gamer goal is to get pregnant, we can
• 27:40
  go to extremes and then like you're saying, blame ourselves
• 27:43
  when things don't work then. But it's all about moderation
• 27:46
  and making slow changes. So like processed, processed
• 27:49
  foods, those kind of things like if we started to eliminate,
• 27:52
  didn't eat out as much, you know, and mainly on the
• 27:56
  Mediterranean diet or whatever, that would look like, you know,
• 27:58
  cutting like slowly decreasing red meat to those points and
• 28:02
  stuff. But right, like food is fuel is
• 28:06
  what we, you know, talk about a lot and like different support
• 28:09
  groups and things like that and what it looks like because it's
• 28:12
  true, you know, and like you're saying the moderation and that's
• 28:17
  the key to all of. This, absolutely.
• 28:19
  Yeah, Less like shame and blame around eating or exercise and
• 28:23
  being kind to yourself. If your body is saying like, you
• 28:26
  know, today is not the great day to go for, you know that walk,
• 28:29
  you know, just give yourself a little bit of grace.
• 28:33
  Yes, and you know, my comfort food is ice cream, so like I'm
• 28:36
  going right for that pint, you know, and then of course, you
• 28:40
  know, you do you like it's hard not to in those moments, but you
• 28:44
  know, allowing yourself to understand it's not like you
• 28:46
  have to do this perfect all of the time.
• 28:49
  Because also like when we're on a fertility journey, we're
• 28:52
  tracking everything. So like we're always looking at
• 28:54
  charts. We're always, you know, or, or
• 28:56
  we might not be and, and you know, some choose not to do
• 28:59
  those things, But for me, I'm like, I need to see this, this
• 29:03
  and this. So I'm the same way with
• 29:04
  everything else that's associated with it.
• 29:07
  And then it does really creep with your mental health.
• 29:09
  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. No all, Laura, well, thank you
• 29:16
  so much for getting on, for sharing your wisdom, for
• 29:18
  everything that you're doing on social media.
• 29:21
  You know, you put it in such a way that we find, you know,
• 29:25
  connection with it. And I just, I can't thank you
• 29:27
  enough for everything that you're putting out there.
• 29:29
  And in a way, like I said, that is easy for us to manage or to
• 29:33
  to look at and to understand, which is huge.
• 29:36
  Well. Thank you.
• 29:38
  I really appreciate that and I appreciate today, you know, you
• 29:42
  are doing such wonderful things to support so many people and I
• 29:47
  just really commend you for what you're doing.
• 29:50
  Thank you so much, Laura. That means a lot coming from
• 29:52
  you. And yeah, to have you on here
• 29:54
  and to help our listeners. And, you know, we encourage our
• 29:57
  listeners to find your information.
• 30:00
  We'll put it in the podcast description.
• 30:02
  So anyone listening, you can find those YouTube videos.
• 30:05
  You can find Doctor Shaheen on Instagram anywhere that she is
• 30:11
  so. And thank you so much again for
• 30:13
  being here. Thank you.