Latest / Monero Talk / Celebrating Monero’s Birthday with some Cake | EPI 348

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Celebrating Monero’s Birthday with some Cake | EPI 348 · Monero Talk

• Doug All right, Seth, what's going on, man? It's gonna be Seth It feels like a few lifetimes have passed since I was on MoneroTalk last, so this can be a fun one. Doug It was the last, I don't know. What will a part of your life bring in for you? Seth It was definitely pre-cake. Yeah, it was pre-cake for sure. I'm trying to think when it was last. It might've been, no, I don't think I did any live ones with you when we were at Monerotopia. So yeah, I don't know. It's been a while, probably a year, maybe a little more, a little less. Doug Aerotopia I feel like you know cuz I was like too busy. You were too busy. I should say yeah I'm like one node that everybody's starting to communicate with Seth not decentralized enough but that was a good time though right you had a good time oh man yeah yeah it was a ton of fun I think as always for me the most exciting thing is just seeing Monero actually used so I thought it was awesome how every vendor there was using Monero via a cake wallet we're buying our lunches every day yeah it was that was definitely the most badass part like that was just awesome to see it like actually working like yeah not everybody kept Monero like not all the merchants kept the Monero at the end of the day but just to see it it actually worked pretty smoothly there were definitely some things that we can make more smooth on the on the cake wallet side and on the Monero side but it was a that was the coolest part for me I mean I love the presentations as well outside of that I think just getting to see good friends like Justin Berman Luke Parker and others is always a blast so yeah it's a Doug time. And it's like the perfect testing grounds for a wallet, right? Oh, yeah. Like, Vic, you're like, here you go, man. Like. Seth First crypto wallet for most people, definitely first Monero wallet, a good test of our Spanish translations. Yeah, there were there were a lot of things in there. Doug Yeah, yeah, and there's always, it's not as easy as it looks, right? Creating a good wallet, which we should get into that, right? Yeah. It's amazing what Cake has accomplished. Obviously, it's Monero's birthday, which is amazing what Monero has accomplished. But I do want to also talk about all of Cake's updates and improvements. Seems like you guys are just dropping a ton of new features now, like every day. And I want to get a better understanding of what the vision of Cake is. What is the current mission and vision for Cake Wallet? So we'd love to get into all that. So what is it? It's Monero's 11th birthday, right? Seth Yeah, 2014. So it'll be 11th birthday. Is it today or tomorrow? It's the birthday. Doug Yeah, I confused myself too, because I had to do the show tonight, but now I'm thinking it actually was Monero's birthday today, but now it's tomorrow. Seth It's paying in UTC time, which you would normally measure a software release in. It is the 18th. So we can, we can truthfully. Doug say Genesis the day of the Genesis block right I get right is this Seth I believe so, I can't remember if this one is the, I should have probably looked this up beforehand. I can't remember if this is the Genesis block or if this is just the, uh, the initial release of the, the code and concept for the team. I think you're right. Yeah. I think you're right. Doug Yeah, Monero Fam, everybody that's watching, please do participate today. Ask your questions. I'm going to put the Monero Talk XMR chat, xmrchat.com slash Monero Talk. You could send your Monero-based Super Chats there. We'll bring them up if you have a question for Seth. Please do. Please do. We've got to get that integrated into K. XMR Chat, that could be kind of a cool thing that could make it quicker, easier, simpler. Seth That's an interesting idea. Doug You can access their XMR chats for sending chats, but then also just for accessing them as they come in. Because ideally with XMR chat, obviously right now people are using it for basically when they're streaming, receiving super chats in a narrow form, but I see it as a way to communicate and get in touch with somebody directly for a given price. That's an interesting idea. That's privacy, $100 XMR chat, and now he's getting a ding in his cake wallets, and he's going to look at the message and say, all right, so that's where we want to take it. I'm thinking maybe integration with cake helps get it to that point. Seth It's a very good idea. I mean, I think it's definitely doable. It would be an interesting way to add a little bit of a social layer to be able to allow you to log in and even like in your transaction history, if you could see what were XMR chats and what were just regular payments and click into it and see the comments on the actual payments themselves. I think that would be pretty awesome. Not to mention if we could just simplify the process of like enter an XMR chat name. I think we could do it kind of like bird pay. I don't know, I haven't thought of that. Or you could just enter an XMR chat username and it'll automatically pull the address. And then we would just need to submit the comment as an extra field there. That's an idea. Doug a ticket for it right now. Seth which we can do now, or very, very soon, I should say. I've got some notifications for Monero payments right here. I don't know if you'll be able to see them on screen. Doug i can't totally make it yeah it's gonna be hard but Seth Yeah, so one of the things that we've added recently that I think has gotten a lot of buzz rightfully is background sync for Monero. And that was like the very early version, which I definitely want to talk about a bit. But we've been working really hard on expanding that, which will allow you to background sync other cryptocurrencies as well. But one of the other big advantages is it lets you get notifications when you receive transactions. So you can actually get a notification every time you get a donation, every time you get any payment at all, even sending, could you? So that would work well with something like XMR Chat too. You could actually get it, whereas before you wouldn't get any of those notifications because you wouldn't be syncing your wallet unless it was actually open. So yeah, that paves the way well for that. Doug Oh my God, that'd be so cool that you could send Vic, you know, 25 bucks to get his attention. I mean, because that was one of the early right use cases for people that, you know, that was an early idea in Bitcoin. I forget what it was called, right? So it's so many built it. I think it was built into Coinbase at some point. Really? That was the basic concept like sending a message with Bitcoin for the purposes of getting somebody's like attention for buying their image. Seth Yeah, I mean, that was one of the main reasons that proof of work was invented, was to let you be able to restrict who can send you email to people who actually prove that they're real, which is basically what you would be doing at that point. And basically what XMRChat does is it limits spam by making sure that someone's at least making some financial payment in order to actually make it, which, yeah, it is a really cool use case. That's something I've never thought about. I get so many messages on so many platforms that it would be nice to... You'd be making a bank, bro. You'd be making a bank account. Doug Right? It's very declarative to go after you list that. Seth Not the goal. It could be an interesting use case for people to be able to get some priority there. So that's something I never really thought about. I always just really thought about it from the streaming perspective or the podcasting perspective where you can get questions for the show, get people to comment on what they like and don't like. But I never really thought about it more from just the more broad social level. It doesn't Doug interesting one I got some ideas man you know I got my ideas I know we got a we got our first still Sheldon tip the dollar whenever talk is great awesome guests today Seth I'm happy that you work for take now yeah this is like a dream come true I remember you know now there's Seth When I crossed over. Doug Yeah, he has he has risen it is Easter on Sunday Yeah, no, I then am I Seth I'm a narrow Jesus. Well. Thank you. Doug If you love all versions of SAS, but I think this is my favorite one, because now you're full bore working for the team, working for the cause, and getting paid for it, so you're fully incentivized to... Oh yeah. Yeah. Seth No, it's it's definitely the dream Yeah, definitely the dream and I mean like I'll be honest also part of the dream is that it's not menu only which may Be a little a little frustrating But obviously everybody knows that I I really do find some use in other things Bitcoin less and less even for somebody who tries to remain a little more optimistic like me Doug You're working on giving people the tools they need to Friends Act privately. For sure. Seth For sure. And one of the beautiful things with CAKE is because Monero is the first class citizen, it's a massive gateway for people to come in for other cryptocurrencies and end up in Monero. And that's something that we always see. We don't get any analytics or anything like that, but sometimes partners share top trading pairs, that sort of thing. And almost always, by far, the majority of the volume is people going from other things into Monero. That's the route that is by far the most common, which is a cool use case. If you are a Monero maxi, one of the really good positive things about CAKE supporting other cryptocurrencies is that it's a fantastic funnel to get people into Monero, get people using Monero, get people questioning like, hey, I do like this privacy feature on Bitcoin, but it's still a little bit difficult. It's not as straightforward as I would like, but I know that CAKE has this Monero thing. Let me try that. I feel like once you've actually sent and received a Monero transaction, especially if you care at all about privacy, but even for many people who don't, there's just really no going back at that point. So it's a fantastic funnel for people who are in other things to finally realize how powerful tool Monero is. Doug Yeah, it's an all roads lead to Monero situation. Yeah, I mean like yeah, then Vic has always said that all roads lead to Monero So I think cake cake is like the the main highway taking people to to Monero Yeah, because people use it they use it as a like it's a well-respected Bitcoin wallet now I mean it's basically on the cutting edge of Bitcoin privacy, right you guys are the first to implement stealth addresses, right Seth Yep, yep, first to do silent payments in Bitcoin will be the first to do pay join fully on Bitcoin as well, which is another privacy preserving feature on Bitcoin. There's one other wall that has it right now, but it's pretty pretty alpha. Doug Slow down guys, so let's let's get whole city membership proof simple Seth Hey these things are like little tiny little tiny pieces of privacy. They're not they're not beating Monero. They're not beating FCMP. It's like these are like little tiny breadcrumbs that build up to give you a little bit more control and sovereignty in Bitcoin but I don't know we're we're uh we're absolutely full steam ahead on FCMP. We're already starting to talk internally about some of the changes how it's going to impact Monero's usability things we'll have to do to kind of optimize around it but yeah although that's that's the focus can't wait. Doug be amazing, amazing times, oh my god. Seth Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Doug How far off is it? I'm seeing rumors now, like Justin had said something in some chat yesterday I saw getting tweeted around. Obviously, but like what is like the best estimate at this point? Seth I mean, it looked like what he was saying was we're probably like one to two months out from full test capabilities, everything we need to really start like stress testing FCMP within Monero code, which is the last real step before setting a date for a hard fork and moving full steam ahead towards that. So I mean, just from like experience with previous hard forks, it takes a while to organize everybody. It takes a while to get whatever exchanges still support Monero. It's going to be, it's getting easier and easier to get the exchanges on board because there's less and less of them, but getting those kinds of ecosystem players. There's nobody to reach the outset. It's actually big. With that Kraken and instant exchangers, a few in Europe, but yeah, that's pretty slim. So yeah, I mean, it's just going to take, I mean, I would, my estimate would probably be like three to six months at the very least after the code is complete. And we have the final code of what we'll be running pending any like final bug fixes or that kind of thing. We have that code ready. It's going to take a while to make sure that everybody's ready to give people plenty of time to upgrade beforehand, give the ecosystem time to get ready. Because you also have to think like BTC pay server, we got to get that up to date ahead of time with plenty of lead time to make sure that no merchants get cut off by the hard fork. Things like now payments, more centralized payment processors, we got to get them ready. We don't want to leave merchants behind when we're doing something like this, because obviously that's such an absolutely critical part of what Monero is now the circular economy. So it is definitely going to take some time. I would say probably like six to nine months out is my best guess. Doug We needed February 2026 during Monerotopia. Seth That's, I mean, that's, that's a very possible timeline. Um, maybe for that. Yeah. It's funny you say that that's probably pretty realistic. Cause if we talk eight months from now it's Christmas and very intentionally the hard fork will happen anytime between like Thanksgiving and Christmas. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if we're looking more like January, February, uh, of next year for that. Yeah, that'd be pretty sweet. Doug have to implement it or something. Seth Maybe we'll get the hard fork block while we're at Monero Topia. Doug I don't know how to get hit by a bus, man. Come on. That's gonna be an amazing moment. And it seems like, it's like really, there's no major obstacles that are, right? Like, it's just time and implementation. Seth Yeah, I mean the vast majority, like we've, I know you talked about a lot on your show, the vast majority of the concept and code has already been implemented and pretty well vetted. But I think probably the last main thing remaining right now is just that some things change with FCMP, specifically like the amount of inputs you can have in a transaction. There's just some kind of like pieces of it that will have to be handled very delicately from a user experience perspective. So I think some things like that, like once you finally get all of the code set, you get to actually ration or kind of wrestle with what does this actually look like now to use, because it's not going to be exactly the same experience in every way as using the chain right now. There are some disadvantages and some changes that come with FCMP. They're not huge, but they are ones that we have to wrestle with. So a lot of that I think will probably start to happen now that we have, we're getting close to code complete, going to start doing more stress testing. We'll see more of the stuff that maybe it's complete right now, but maybe the way it's actually working is suboptimal for wallets or suboptimal for merchants, and we have to tweak some stuff at that point. So yeah. Doug Yeah. And what do you see as being the next thing after full chain membership proves that we need to focus on? What's the next thing that needs to be fixed, upgraded? Seth It's a good question. I think the sure thing, but the one that I don't know the clearest path forward on is quantum resistance. I know that it's always kind of the bugaboo, but it's just it's one of those things where if you don't get ahead of it, it's going to take so long to actually pick a crypto that you're going to use for the actual algorithm to test it to, or to implement it to test it, to give the ecosystem time to upgrade to deploy it. Like it takes a long time to do something like that. I mean, just like we've been talking about FCMP for, I don't know, three years now, something like that. And probably still close to a year out from that being live. We seem to be hitting like the next stage in quantum computers, which is still not anywhere close to what's necessary to break a system like Monero. But having quantum resistant crypto in the most important pieces of Monero, I think is probably, that's like the next no brainer. Outside of that, I think you could go a lot of different directions. Layer two explorations would probably be a focus for me, especially with some things that FCMP enables that we weren't able to do before that. Like transaction chaining, you can open up some new layer two approaches that weren't really possible before. And that's definitely something that if Monero continues to grow in adoption, we're going to need like we, I know there's this kind of, it's not a meme because people say it seriously, but there's this idea that we can just do everything on L1 and Monero. And we can do a lot more at L1 and Monero, a lot more. And my Doug Artic has us going to Visa level network and everything's running smooth transactions are cheap. Yeah Seth I'll do respect to Arctic. I do heavily disagree. It is possible, but not in a way that would be enjoyable for anyone, especially when you're coming from the perspective of a wallet dev or a company that has to handle support cases of people who think sync takes too long already. And imagine what sync would take if our blocks were 20 times the size and you're having to download all that data every time to be able to sync your wallet. Things get asked to you real quick. But that aside, I think we, again, layer two is one of those things that take a very long time. I mean, you look at lightning, which is not a great example, because I think it was kind of flawed an idea from the beginning, but... And we just asked... Doug chat GPT to like you on the narrow at this point come on Seth I'm just gonna wake up tomorrow and vibe code and L2 for Monero this it's possible right I can do that right we're all Cryptographers and devs now. I mean it's pretty much how it's working. Yeah, we'll see That's that's probably my other main main area where I think I'd like to see us work but I mean alongside those is always keeping figuring out ways that we can improve and optimize the The sync experience get rid of the 10 block lock like the things that actually make the day-to-day Difference from a usability perspective and not forget about that because we're so laser focused on privacy But definitely keep working on those and in tandem alongside you Doug I don't see any avenue to getting rid of the 10 block block yet though, right? I mean, other than a second layer, which you wouldn't be experiencing there. Seth Yeah, no, unfortunately, there's even looks like all right. Yeah, that one's kind of sad because I was really open that we'd be able to figure that out by now. But it's just yeah, there's not a clear path forward for that. So and some of that, like, one nice thing with FCMP is that you can actually do a woman area manager show ever say the Esperanto properly, but manager does with pocket changes, they they allow you to automatically break up your inputs into multiple inputs, which right now is really bad for privacy, the way that it works. Really good for usability. Doug be identified that you're going through that process. Seth Yeah. Yeah. And it can make it much easier to take that with real spend. Yeah. Because you're going to be combining inputs a lot more often. There are a lot of downsides to the privacy, but it does have a massive user experience improvement if done properly. And one nice thing with FCMP is it fixes the privacy side of that completely. So you can do the idea of pocket change in a way that's much safer from a privacy perspective. So like, even though we can't get rid of the 10 block lock, because of the massive privacy improvement that FCMP brings, we can work around the 10 block lock in ways that are a little bit more intelligent. And I think there's some interesting ways we can use something like background sync to do that in a more automated way. Like it's a little weird because you would have to have the actual private keys hot in that case, whereas like the way we do background sync right now is using what Justin Berman built out to just use the view keys. So your private keys are not even kept hot when your wallet's syncing, but we're just using the view keys to be able to do that. So like that paradigm would shift a little bit if you started to do a lot of the stuff in the background. But I think that's that's really the only path forward right now for the 10 block lock is just be a little bit more intelligent from the wallet dev side, our side in figuring out how to best handle it for the users show them what they need to do and abstract away and automate away as much as possible for that. Doug Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's unfortunate. But like you said, it does seem like there's a path forward with the wallets themselves. It will feel just as seamless and there won't be that sacrifice of privacy because blockchain membership proofs will be implemented and that attack factor will go away. Yeah. Oh, all right. All right. All right. I mean, for me personally, I don't feel it much because I'm using Monero all the time. The worst part is when you're trying to onboard somebody new and you send them Monero for the first time and then they go to turn it. So like their first experience is a bad experience. What? I thought this thing was digital. I got to wait. I can't turn around and I'll send this. Seth It is an Ottawa. And like, like you said, like I never run into this, like it's really easy for me to even forget this is a problem because I spending Monero so often. Doug You're trying to onboard people, you realize how big a problem it is because you can't have a bad first experience in tech in this day and you have zero patience for something like that. Yeah, for sure. I want my digital money to work instantly. We'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah. One day at a time. I think so. So do you think, because with this new background sync you're doing, which is, that's a breakthrough, that's amazing. Do you think you guys will still be adding LWS? Because we'd love to get that gel with it. You see that being, obviously I think people should be running their own nodes, whether it's a node or something else, but that's ideal, right? We want as many people as possible running their own nodes and using that, if they're using Cake Wallet, we still want them running their own nodes. Node hopefully coming to play, but could also come into play in terms of LWS, right? So making, for instance, sync without sacrificing, but now you're saying that's not even really an issue anymore with these new beauties, right? Seth Yeah, I mean, like for anybody who's tried background sync so far in Cake Wallet, and I would say the only real downside is it's Android only right now. Like obviously we want to bring it to iOS, but Apple is ridiculously restrictive when it comes to background services. So we're having to try to find some interesting ways to work around that on the iOS side. So we're still working on that. We have some things we're trying, but that's much harder. But on the Android side, like I'm basically getting the user experience of LWS without any of the downsides right now. Like if you are on Wi-Fi fairly regularly, and I'm talking like daily, and if you charge your phone at night, you just have a Monero wallet that's always in sync. And it blows my mind every time I open my Monero wallet, and it just takes like one second to finish sync because I'm just so... Doug used to like sitting there. And what is the effect on the battery, you're saying? Seth Very minimal for me. I mean, I've been running it, I've been running it in the most aggressive setting. So we have three settings right now daily. So it just tries to sync roughly once every like 18 to 24 hours hourly. So it syncs roughly every hour. It's pretty self-explanatory. And then an aggressive mode, which basically just tries to sync as often as it possibly can, which is usually roughly about every 15 minutes. But depending on the actual OS, it can be more frequent. So I've been running it in the most aggressive mode, which is the worst choice if you're worried about battery life. On my daily driver phone, which is a Pixel 8, that has tons of other stuff running on it. And I'm never even below like 30% batteries than today. Basically, I have noticed negligible battery life loss due to background sync. And right now, the background sync that's actually live today in Cake Wallet, you can't set it to like only use wifi or only do when charging, but we have internal builds that we've been testing as what I was trying to show earlier that lets you set like to only do it on metered connections so that you're not using up your mobile data to only do it when you're charging, to only do it when you're not using your phone, a little bit more control over exactly when it's gonna do it. But yeah, I mean, Doug So you could really dial it in and it felt like unnoticeable. Seth Yeah, yeah, that's what I've been doing. I have a second tester phone that I've been using the new build on and Primarily trying to use it in like the way a normal person would which would be hourly is what I've said it to which I think is for like the most that's for the most aggressive manera user pretty much like aggressive the mode that we have in there We're probably just going to drop because it's like way too much. It's like sinking every 15 minutes Which is not that's like when you're at manera topia basically. Yeah I want to make sure i'm never sinking any blocks there. It's always there It is an interesting mode for something like that like those in-person things you expect to be spinning often But it's too aggressive. But on this testing phone i've been doing hourly wi-fi only And just letting it ride and it just wakes up every so often every hour or so You'll see a little notification that it's background sinking and it goes away and you're golden. It really is like it's Aside from fixing the ten block lock which was we talked about as tricky, but doable It's it's resolved the most painous user experience hurdle in Monero Which is every time that like every time i'm in person with other people when they're trying to spin Monero It's inevitable that somebody's going to open up their Their cake wallet or Monero joe or something and then realize they haven't opened their wallet in a year And then they just go i'm not even using it like this is pointless and they walk away and they don't use Monero Because of it. So having you be able to just set this turn it on Never open cake wallet for the next six months or if you're someone who uses it frequently open it every week or whatever And you have your wallet always in sync Even at the least aggressive the most you're talking about is thinking a day's worth of blocks Which for me is usually like 10 to 15 seconds That's just yeah, it's magic Doug Yeah, no, that's that's beautiful. I mean, I think right. Yeah after that is just got to get rid of that lock time Yeah, the background Seth Yeah, yes, around LWS, I can quickly speak to that. It's something like I would still like to support. The hard thing for me is that there's just a lot of drawbacks to using LWS, specifically like the complexity of approving the view keys that you do initially. And then the handling of sub addresses is a little bit suboptimal, especially for restoring wallets. Like you can technically do sub addresses right now, but the way that you restore a wallet with LWS can get a little wonky if you use a lot of sub addresses. Which like in CAKE, we automatically rotate sub addresses for you every time we receive, we rotate them every time you start a swap. So you're going through sub addresses pretty aggressively to help better preserve your privacy. There's some downsides there. Now, obviously the main upside with LWS is no matter the platform, you are always in sync because you're trusting a third party server, which hopefully is your own, like running on Minero dodo. So you're not actually trusting a separate entity, but you're letting that server do all the sync. So it is a really cool user experience, but it does have a lot of drawbacks. And so I really like, like, I think background sync in its like optimal form, when we can get IO iOS support specifically, like I think there won't be much of a need for LWS. But like something like a Minero dodo is still immensely useful because when you're syncing all the time, you need to make sure that you have a node that you trust that's reliable. And the closer it is to you, the more effective that background sync is going to be. The less often your phone's going to have to stay awake to do that background sync because you're able to pull that block data faster. You know that it's always online. You're not going to run into any weirdness with it being blocked or something. So that there still is like a really good use case for Minero dodo. Doug Well, plus you just want to be connecting to your own node. Yeah, yeah. Right, revealing that you're using Monero to whatever node you're connecting to, right? Seth For sure. For sure. Doug That's the biggest, right? I mean, that attack is very real, right? That's the last attack chain analysis has out of an arrow once full chamber, right? Or are there other attacks at that point? I feel like that's really the... Seth Pretty much, it's mostly going to be network level at that point, and like you said, running your own node pretty much just does away with that, thanks to Dandelion++. Does Monero Noto use Tor for the actual wallet connection? I couldn't remember how exactly it went. Doug It has, yes, it has a tour option. Okay. Seth Yeah, yeah, that's another one. I'm curious, I haven't tried it at all, but I'm curious about the combination of Background Sync and Tor. Because one of the problems with Tor from a Wallet Sync perspective is it's just so freaking slow, like it's just so slow. But if you're just syncing in the background all the time, that the duration that you're normally waiting to sync, that's all happening when you're not actually using Cake Wallet. So I think that's another area where Background Sync I wonder if that will have enough of an impact to make it really usable to use Tor for connecting to your own node or to connecting to another node. Whereas to me, it really hasn't been usable when I've done it in the past. I know some people do it, but just from a from a speed perspective, it's a little too painful right now. But I wonder if Background Sync can help there as well. Doug Yeah, it'd be good. I'm trying to make the integration more smoother when you're using your own node, your own nodo, connecting it to cake wallet, and then connecting to the nodes via Tor. So connecting to a Tor address on the nodo, making that work nicely, I think is where we can improve. Seth Yeah, no for sure. Yeah, that's something that was one of my like day one ultimatums is the right word, but one of the things when I joined cake like I said This is something we gotta we gotta figure out is how to do toward natively within cake instead of relying on or bot Yes, yes on both platforms. So that's something we've been working on for a while We ran into some just weirdness not with Monero actually Monero works pretty well But with other cryptocurrencies specifically like bitcoin style cryptocurrencies just the way that node connections work didn't like tor With our specific implementation. It's a little in the weeds, but we stranded some things with that But we we did find the solution recently We found a good tool that we can use for it And we're able to figure out some licensing stuff that went along with that. So that is coming Soon. I don't have a direct timeline But that is coming soon to have native tor integration You don't have to run it or about anymore. You won't have to do anything like that You'll just scan qr code for Monero noto that has the the tor onion address It'll recognize that that's tor turn on tor then it'll be much much better much better Doug That's so awesome too. And then that just makes it so much more usable as a plug and play device, not only being ideal that you're connecting via Tor, but it's also just the easier way to set it up, right? Because now you don't have to like, you know, work. Yeah, yeah, that's one of the, like. It actually makes it easier plus more private and secure. So, oh yeah, that's gonna be huge. Seth Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. Been wanting that for a really long time, so I think it's gonna be the killer. Doug We might, we might see that. Seth I can check real quick. Doug I have the power You know man was saying my mic was a little low. I don't know. I raised it a little a little bit How's it how you sounded fine to me the whole time I sound I raised my volume a little Seth I think you sound about the same. I had to turn up my volume a bit when I first joined so maybe you are a little bit quiet. Doug guys let me know how i sound usually i'm loud that's the thing so i'm surprised so it's pretty pretty loud it must be set very low maybe Seth That's the problem. Turned you down. Doug Yeah, yeah, Monero stan tips three cents. What are you gonna do to celebrate Monero's right? I'm doing it right now, man There's there's no better way to celebrate Monero's birthday than to hang out with sasten Seth How you doing? Talking Monero with friends? Monero birthday celebration. Monero birthday celebration. It's the dream. Doug Asking us questions here, we have another question. If you have Demise, who is the creator of XMR Chat, tips dollar with, would love if Seth looked at new Monero feature multi-receipt URL. Do you know what that is? Seth No, I'm looking up the pull request he linked right there, 9830, because I'm curious. Doug Yeah, big step towards split payments and Monero being used for podcasting 2.0, which currently only works with lightning. So it would end a payment and it would get to multiple destinations and it gets split. Seth yeah this i mean this should shouldn't be Doug Very useful. Difficult. Exo more bizarre features as well. Seth Yeah, it looks like just today I got the final, final approval on the Monero side. Um, so yeah, I will definitely, I'll have a look at it and open something for our team from what it looks like. It looks very possible because essentially we're, uh, instead of like, you would think when you, like, when you scan a QR code and cake, it's like Monero semicolon, Monero address, amount, whatever, this one just allows you to do multiple people within it. So that instead of like, that is one thing I've noticed. It's a little bit of a pain. Like when I want to send to multiple people, I have to do it all manually. So if I'm understanding this correctly, you would be able to scan one QR code. We already have multi-recipient, uh, support and cake that we've had for a really long time. So it would just be parsing that until the different recipients and then letting you see what the recipients are and parse through it, which we, we already have. So this should be pretty low lift. Um, but I'll definitely look into it, look into it more and open for the team. But if it's as easy as I think this might even be a next release kind of thing. Doug awesome awesome uh they're saying my mic is still low really what hello hello is this guy just messing with me right now? you sound a little louder now sound a little louder now? you should better? it sounds bad let me know okay Spirobelle happy birthday what's up Spirobelle long time long time yeah I'm tempted to let people jump up on stage or that's not the whole thing I know you can leave if we go if we go Seth Yeah, I've got a like hard spot in 45 minutes, but I can go I can go until then that's that's my that's my I'm gonna Hit I'm gonna hit leave aggressively if we hit 830, but now I don't want to rush too much Doug Guys, go ahead and ask questions. So, Seth, let's, oh wait, yeah, what was the answer on that in terms of potential timeline for, I don't know. Seth Yeah, I don't have a really firm one. It's gonna need a lot of testing and like I said We just kind of sorted out this issue with other currencies. I would say probably Let's say and don't quote me on this if Vic or anyone else in the cake tea asks Let's say buy Monero con like dead stuff. Yes. I think that's very feasible. So yeah, that'll be that's a good charge Doug I'll be able to show that off at Monero at pork fest. Yeah, yeah. Seth Yeah, nice. I forgot this at the same time. Doug So you definitely, you're going to Monero County, you're going to Prague. Seth Yeah. Yeah. We're doing BGC Prague right before it, MoneroCon, which overlaps a little bit. Yeah. Gonna be fun. Doug Vic, Vic is in the house. Oh no. Seth I've been caught he heard he heard my timeline promise Doug This builds privacy tech. It really doesn't give him any privacy around here Jesus. I know I'm not doing a very good job Yes, so let's let's actually go through all the features that like that cake has Recently lost because I was I can't even keep it. Yeah, I made right so one somebody posting One of the devs I saw him like buying something at a store where yes and a QR code and a magically paid the amount Oh Yeah Seth That's a that's a good one. I forgot even to have that one on my list. It's like man It's so hard to keep up with what we're doing as somewhat news part of it Doug problem but go ahead yeah tell us we'll get into that maybe after but you want to tell us what are the recent Seth Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'll run through the the high level ones. It's like you said, it's just it's wild, but this team is capable of shipping. Like I there's a reason that like even in Bitcoin Maxi circles, there's a core respect for Cake Wallet because like these this team is just wild. I don't I don't know how they do it. Like I love working with them and trying to help help with the ways that I can. But it's it's really amazing to see how much they're able to to ship in every release. Yeah, I made like a quick list of the things I remembered off the top of my head. But I know I'm going to forget things. Like I forgot the open crypto pay, which is the one that you're mentioning, which is a it's a specific thing by an exchange called DFX, who are a really cool Swiss exchange. Yeah, yeah, they're like they're huge Monero fans, one of the best Monero exchanges, centralized exchanges. But I think no KYC up to like a thousand Swiss francs or something. But they're like everything they do is open source. Really, really cool team. And we worked with them to implement what they call open crypto pay, which like you said, it's just a static QR on a sticker. And it uses it actually uses the kind of standards set up by LNURL, which is a Bitcoin lightning spec. But they extended it to work with most cryptos, with Monero being one of the first that they wanted to make sure it worked well with. So we implemented it in CAKE. And in the in the video, you can see Constantine, one of our one of our amazing devs, going to a store in Zug, I think, in Switzerland and getting a drink with Monero from the merchant. Didn't have to do anything fancy. The merchant didn't have to have a special POS system. He's just able to choose to use open crypto pay at the end. And then it automatically sets that QR to use the right amount and everything. So you just screen it with. Doug how does it integrate with the POS system on the vendors? Seth Yeah, that's the part I need to learn a little bit more about what's required. I know it doesn't require any special, like additional hardware. Like when people are using BTC pay server or something, normally they're having to use like a separate standalone POS, which is like an extra. Doug into like existing POSs like Square and all those things. Seth not all of them. Right now, my understanding is that it's specifically focused on Switzerland, which is where DFX are. And so they're focused on the POS systems there. It would actually be like, you should definitely get someone from the DFX team to come on, I can line that up and get them connected with you, because they will be able to tell you a lot more about specifically how this works. From the like, from the merchant's perspective as well. Because like you said, it's like, it seems like from what I'm reading, what I've seen, what I've learned from the DFX team, it seems like a very, very low lift thing for the merchants, but lets them, lets them accept. Doug I'd go like, you know run around trying to get people in New York like integrating that like we get that We have that supermarket in Astoria like they would Seth Yeah, i'm i'm guessing right now it's tied to using on the merchant side to using the dfx exchange So that you can go from crypto to fiat directly Uh, but again, I don't I don't know that oh 100 off the top of my head You definitely need to get some of the dfx guys on there They're also just super based like huge Monero fans. So I think they'd be a good fit for the show anyways But yeah, that was that was pretty awesome I mean the the user experience as an end user like margin aside is you just Give the item to the clerk you scan the qr code nk could auto populates all the details Pulling in from the api you hit send and you're done like it. It literally cannot get easier. It's it's pretty magic Doug that's just in testing right now in that one. Seth No, it's all live. It's live in multiple stores right now. And one of the biggest supermarket chains in Switzerland is working to deploy it or testing it out. Again, some of the details are a little hazy on exactly what it is because I'm just not that in touch with like the Swiss Bitcoin Monero scene. But yeah, one of the biggest. Doug That's the U.S. How do we get that going in New York? Seth You guys the dfx guys. I'll get you connected right after this. Yeah, I'll get you connected because they would have more info And I know that's the next big push. They just they just launched this so we were very early and getting it integrated But I know that the next push is Doug We need a POS solution where people that are using existing POS systems can now additionally accept Monero. Seth Exactly. It needs to be seamless. It needs to be seamless, which just really seems like it is. See, I mean, that's one of them. That one from our end was very, very low lift, but it was something that mainly the DFX team knocked out and we just had to work with integrating their specific URI format. But that one was pretty awesome. Beyond that, we covered background sync pretty extensively already. So I'll go to into detail with that, but basically just press a button, allow background permission for Cake Wallet, and enjoy all of your wallets being in sync all the time. It's pretty magical. Right now, it's quite basic, but very effective, and it's from an era only right now. But maybe probably in the next release, in the next week or two, we'll have the greatly improved and expanded version of background sync, which, like I said, we'll let you do things like set it to only run when you're on an unmetered network, to only run when you're charging, to only run when your phone's not in use, things like that, to let you get a little bit more granular with exactly when it's going to run. But it's it already works. And that's also Doug You could set the level like it out. Seth Yeah, yeah daily hourly or aggressive which is for the psycho Monero users out there who spend all the time Doug Yeah. But that's only on Android, right? Seth It is right now. It is right now. Like I said, we have some ideas of how we can bring it to iOS, but it's not up to us. Basically, to use a background service, you have to be a music app or a Bluetooth device. There's almost no other ways to get a very clear access to run as a background service, even very intermittently. So we're working really hard. We've got some good contacts that we're working with and trying to find a good solution to that. But that's the new and hard part. We have joked about just playing music in the background. We'll stream some Monero podcasts or something in the background for everybody who uses cake, and that'll be our excuse to have a background service. Maybe we can have a Monero talk be the exclusive. It'll just stream Monero talk 24-7 through your speaker, but you'll have in sync. Speaker 4 Heh heh. Doug Oh man, all right, so yeah, what else keep going? Seth Yeah, other big thing that we just launched two days ago, I think, was allowing you to use a single 12-word seed phrase for all of your cryptocurrency wallets, including Monero, which this has existed for. We've had this for most of the other cryptos we support, except for like XANO, WellNarrow, and Decred. But Monero was always, it was always harder just because there's no BIP39 standard in Monero. 25-word seeds are very different, polyseeds are very different. So we've been working for quite a while on making that a reality. That was another thing when I started, like, and I had a conversation, I think, like, before I started about, that was the end goal, is getting to where you have one 12-word seed and you have all your hot wallets without any requirement to back up anything else. And... Doug still have old wallets that are on the old seed that never moved to like the new seed oh yeah I mean they probably been lost by now but Seth They're somewhere floating around. Yeah, and that's that's part of the real reason that to do This is like finally you can have one seat and have all the wallets you want Which is gonna make it that's sick Doug So drastically easier. You go to reset your take while you get a new phone or whatever, whatever have it. Like one key, one seed, and all your cryptos are reestablished. Seth Yeah, yeah, it's super straightforward. Yeah, there's nothing like crazy from a user's perspective, but it will mean that like one change that we will be doing is that when you actually use cake for the first time as a new user, instead of the current flow, where like you pick the cryptocurrency, you create a seed for that cryptocurrency and then you verify it and then you open it, what we'll be able to do is we'll just, you'll start with cake, we'll give you a 12 word seed or you'll restore one, obviously. And then you'll just choose what cryptocurrencies you want and they'll all just be created. You won't have to do anything beyond just the one seed creation and verification. And it'll be way easier to like really get started with all of your favorite cryptocurrencies instead of having to do like this one by one by one by one process. Doug I think we had a seed for every- Seth We'll be, we'll be crypto grandpa's. Yeah. Uh, my, my four, my four, uh, storage places will, will be devoid of seed phrases at that point, but yeah, that's a really big one. The other like key thing to call out with that is that you can still get the 25 word seed and restore height. If you want to back it up separately. I know some people are a little bit paranoid about like only having one seed and they would like to have another way to, to back it up. So we do still display that for you. You can just swipe over in the, the scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'll still be able to see that. Um, cause we're just deriving that from that 12 word seed. Yeah. And no one's forced into using one 12 word seed for everything either. Like if you want to, obviously, if you want to use policy, you can keep using policy. Doug Are there any arguments against there being any security reasons? Or is it as foolproof as an original seed? Seth As foolproof from a cryptographic security standpoint, the obvious caveat is now if you give up that one seed to someone else or you lose that one seed or it's stolen, then all of your wallets would lose funds. So obviously, we're not saying use this for your hardware wallet. Don't import your hardware wallet's 12-word seed to cake wallet to use for creating all of your wallets. You shouldn't do that. You should think of this just like a hot wallet where you would keep all of your credit cards in one wallet. But if you lose the wallet, you lose everything. It's the same concept here where instead of having really what the concept has been before is that you have like 10 wallets in your pocket, which is a hilarious thing that you would never do each with one credit card in them. But now it's like putting them all in one wallet where yeah, if you lose the wallet, you lose everything. But it's so much easier that it reduces the risk of losing anything because you don't have to keep up with so many different secrets. So it so drastically helps with preventing people from just forgetting to back something up or not keeping track of which seeds go where and deleting one that they shouldn't have deleted or something that for me, it's going to save a lot more funds than it would ever put at risk. But if you are wanting to be really careful and you want to make sure that any one seed compromise doesn't mean that you lose all of your funds in your hot wallets, then you can always still use separate seed phrases for everything. We're obviously always going to support that. So if you if you want that use case and you're comfortable and conscious enough to back up all of the seed phrases separately, you can absolutely still do that. Doug Are you guys thinking about, I mean, obviously you're thinking about this, but is there anything to be done with regards to making that? So you boil it all down to one seed, which is amazing, but just making that process for the user, for the noob of even being acquainted and comfortable with this concept of writing down a seed, something that they have to keep safe. You know, obviously they're used to their Venmos, whatever. Like, how do you, have you guys like come up with any big ideas in that regard, how to cross that? Seth Yeah, I mean, it's always a case of trade-offs. So there's no, if there was a perfect solution where you didn't have to back up a seed phrase, but there was no downside, like obviously everyone would be doing it. There's not a perfect solution, but I think what we can do is provide some alternatives to people who are willing to deal with the trade-offs. So like one of the alternatives is this process is actually really simple if you just save the seed phrase in a good password manager. Like you're not writing it down, you're not having to put it in a safe. We're talking hot wallets here, not your cold storage life savings. So storing it in something like a proton pass or bit warden or key pass is to me totally reasonable. I know different people have different security models and thresholds, but to me that's very reasonable. So like I think one approach we can take and that we've already kind of kicked around internally is just having a direct button to save it to the password manager that you have configured on your device. So like iOS and Android have a functionality where within an app you can say this is a secret that needs to be saved to a password manager and it automatically prompt with whatever password manager you're using to create a new item with that info. So that's like, I think the very simple approach that fits most people's realistic security model and makes it a lot easier. We're not having to get on a pen and pencil. You are still gonna need to verify that seed phrase so that we can ensure that you actually backed up your seed because if we don't do that inevitably people create their seed lie to say that they backed it up and didn't. So you will still need to verify it, but like right now in cake that's two taps. It's just saying what is the ninth word in your seed phrase? What is the fourth word in your seed phrase? And then you're done. Cause we can ensure that there's basically no way you could cheat through that system. You will have had to back up your seed phrase. The other approach and the one that is again, I think very reasonable, but is one that people are understandably a little bit more mixed of an opinion on is doing something like what the foundation guys, they're a Bitcoin harder wallet. That's gonna have been air support through cake wallet actually in the next few months. What they do with their mobile wallet, the hot wallet portion that you can use in their mobile app is they actually use a combination of their servers for backing up like app metadata. So things like what wallets you have created, transaction history, coin control tags, stuff like that. That goes to their server, but in a way that's encrypted with the seed phrase. And then the seed phrase is actually stored encrypted in either Android auto backup or iCloud key chain, both of which are ended encrypted. So Google and Apple can't see them, obviously unless they lie about the functionality, which is a possibility, but they have good reasons not to lie about that being intended encrypted cause things will blow up quickly if they had lied about it. Seth And so that obviously does introduce some trust in that you need to trust that Apple or Google employees really can't access your seed, which they shouldn't be able to technologically, but obviously that doesn't mean it's impossible. Doug Cake had that feature right back in the day, where you could basically save, use iCloud. Seth If it did, I didn't know that. Doug I don't want to miss speak Vic, but I'm pretty sure it was that it was yeah, I think at one point we it was Seth than just for the backups portion, which is encrypted locally, which wouldn't have the same trust assumptions in Apple or Google. I don't think that the private keys themselves were ever being offloaded anywhere, but it's very possible that was before my time or something that was very early on. I think it's not an insane modeling. Doug saying yes to this, which is, you know, okay. Yeah, there was, you know, the Maneric community was like, I don't know about this, like, I don't think I ever use it as well. Seth Yeah, again, I don't think it's insane as an option. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you're sacrificing by placing some trust in the third party, but you're already trusting Apple and Google with so much of your life for most people who would want to use something like this. Like, I'm not particularly trusting Apple or Google with much of my life, but many people are, that the trade off of only needing to secure your Apple or Google account, which let's be honest, Apple and Google, their core premise is we're going to secure your account, we're going to help to make sure that that happens. It's a pretty reasonable set of trade offs. But obviously, it is still a massive trade off. So I don't think there's like a perfect solution for everybody. But I do think something that we want to really keep thinking about is how can we offer these solutions? And I think how can we kind of blend these solutions to be the best for everyone. So like maybe the onboarding process defaults to something like putting the seed into iCloud Drive, iCloud Keychain, or Apple Auto backup, they have weird names that are intended encrypted. But then we prompt you to save the seed phrase separately, once you get over a certain threshold. And then when we prompt you, we also offer to let you save it in a password manager, like, I'm not saying we're going to do these things, but just like that, that that's a possibility that greatly lowers the threshold of onboarding. Because at that point, like for the user who uses that simple backup feature, all they need to do is keep their Android or Google account secure. And they have all their funds there, and they can easily restore them. So there's a lot of upside to that, especially for hot wallets. Like again, I'm very clear, I'm not talking ever about your life savings, hopefully on a hot wallet. But you're kind of spending money, I think it's reasonable to start doing some things like that to again, make it a little bit easier for people to get onboarded. But we're also not just saving your seed phrase and clear text to Apple Notes or something like that. Like, obviously, that's never going to be tenable. But a solution that's actually ended encrypted, I think is an interesting set of trade offs that I'm curious what people think. Doug For what you're getting out of it in terms of usability, right? It's cost-benefit or not. I mean, there'll be a lot more people that actually won't lose their key because of this. Exactly, yeah. They never wrote it down, they wrote down, they lost their foot. Like, you'd definitely be more benefits than negatives there with the new. Seth And that's, I think that's like people kind of, especially in more hardcore circles like the Monero community, people really tend to blow up the possibility of someone stealing your seed phrase into a way bigger problem than it actually is and greatly minimize the risk of just losing funds. Because most of the people we're talking about in the Monero community are more technical, they're very crypto-native, they're used to all this stuff. Losing funds is not nearly as much of a concern for them, but from somebody who has worked in both the hardware wallet and software wallet side, I can tell you that by far, by far, the vast majority of people who have lost money have lost it because they just didn't properly secure their funds. It was not stolen, they just lost it because they didn't back it up properly. I actually, there are very, very, very few cases that I know of where someone's funds were actually stolen because the seed phrase is compromised, and every single one of those cases has to do with something like rolling their own seed with dice and doing it poorly so that the seed phrase, they didn't actually have to steal the seed phrase, they were actually to get the private keys because they could pre-compute all of these low entropy seed phrases. That's, again, a problem actually because people overthink their security model and not a problem because of some really sophisticated attack. So I think we really need to remember that. I'm your own reason. Doug Please don't, please don't. Ticing, though. We need a little cake wallet dice that come with your phone. Speaker 4 I think that's it. Seth Yeah, but the how to lose your money and a few dice rolls feature. Yeah, it's been Doug on one to deal with. Adnan was asking you, any options to have multiple passphrases for the same seed? And Vic chimed in, I believe, and said, yes, to split up wallets by password. Yes, Adnan, you can do that, just restore all the same seed and then advance and put a different passphrase. Do you get? Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can explain that a little bit. So yeah, that's another feature that we added over the last few months was passphrases for Monero, which for somebody for anybody who doesn't know what a passphrase is, it's essentially a second private key or a second secret. And the reason I use that terminology to talk about it is because if you use a passphrase on your wallet, to actually restore the wallet and get your funds back, you have to have both the seed phrase and the passphrase. If you lose either one of those, your money's gone. Yeah, except the pin that no one else can reset for you. And that you very likely could never guess because it's not just like a four to six digit thing. It's essentially going to be, yeah, it really is. You're essentially making a two of two multisig, which is a, again, for most people, not a good idea. Like, I will preface that again, that like a lot of times passphrases are a little bit of security theater. And you drastically increase the risk of just not properly securing either the seed phrase or the passphrase and losing funds, but for the advanced user. Doug because you have to worry about not fucking up and losing. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Seth You go from one single point of failure to two single points of failure, which is like nightmare fuel for me as somebody who constantly sees people lose their money across the board. So it's definitely not, it's not a beginner feature. Like we very intentionally kind of hide away past phrases when you're creating a wallet because we don't want it to be something that users accidentally do because we also see that all the time. They don't know what it is, they think it's just a password and they enter it and then they don't understand that when they go to restore their funds, it's just a seed phrase, the funds are gone. So we've done a lot of work to improve that and make sure that we properly warn users. But for those advanced users who understand what they're getting into, they know that they need to properly back up that passphrase. It lets you ensure that even if someone compromises just your passphrase or just your seed phrase, they can't actually recover the funds. So it adds an extra layer of security. You could also do it to use, you can also use it to do things like, oh, I don't know, I can't think of the proper term, but like a dummy wallet, that's that you'll have a little bit of money in, that if someone was actually like robbing you at gunpoint or something, you could show them that, send the funds and use it as a decoy wallet. Sorry, decoy wallet is the term I'm looking for. You can use it for that. Again, the actual like veracity or usefulness of that in a real mugging scenario, I would be very hesitant with, but it does have some benefits from a security perspective for those users who actually understand how it works. But yeah, you can absolutely do that within Cake. We're gonna make it easier. Like something I've talked about with Vic is, let's say like you already have a Monero wallet that's using a polyseed or a 12 word BIP39 seed, and you decide, I would like to have another wallet, but I don't want another seed phrase to back up. And I want to just be able to keep something else separate like a passphrase that I can easily put in my password manager and not worry about it at all. What I would like is that within the wallet that you already have, you can just click to create another wallet from it and enter a passphrase and be done, to just kind of simplify the actual flow around that. But right now, what I would look like is you would just restore another wallet with the same seed phrase as another one that you already have, set a passphrase. Every passphrase creates a completely unique wallet. So if you change a letter, you change a number, you're gonna get a completely unique wallet that you can use that way, so. Doug Yeah. That's interesting. So pass phrased while it's under a normal one. Seth But the hard thing is they're not under because they're just completely different wallets. You should treat them like they are just a completely standalone wallet. Doug they can or wouldn't you just be creating a fresh wild at the point just Seth The main draw, I would think, I mean, for most users, you would just create more accounts. For most users, there's no reason to actually create a whole nother wallet. But if you do need separate wallets very intentionally and not just separate accounts, the main advantage is just that you can, let's say you have your seed phrase already stamped on steel or something. Instead of having to get another set of steel plates or rings or something to save a whole nother seed phrase, all you have to back up are the additional pass phrases. So if you have five wallets, you can just back up one single seed phrase and then you back up the five pass phrases, like I said, in a password manager or write them down somewhere, put them in them. Doug That original one, while at Key, obviously, it was access to all of these. Seth you lose all your money. Yep. Which is why it's Doug Interesting. Very cool. Adon, man. You got to look. Never used a... She was saying, I thought you could set your own pin. Yes, of course. You could set your own pin on the... Seth Yeah, those are two very different things. Like a passphrase is how you create a new wallet from the same seed phrase and add a layer of security with some extra risk. The pin is something that every Cake user has to set because that's just the way that you limit who can actually get into your Cake wallet instance. So that even if they grab your phone, they can't just open Cake wallet and have access to all your funds. They need to also have the pin or what most people use is a biometric auth. So you can just toggle that on in the security settings and Cake to use like Face ID on iOS or a fingerprint recognition on Android to make it still quick to enter your Cake wallet, but make it so that again, just you leave your phone open, you go to the bathroom or something. You don't want someone just open up Cake wallet and move all your funds. Doug a dummy wallet feature would be cool. That'd be slick, you know, something. Yeah. I think it's something. Bring that out on WVIG. Is that your dummy wallet? That's. Yeah, I don't know. Right? Like, if somebody's going to the, like, real high, you know, they're coming to steal you, you know, there's like, they probably know a little bit, a thing or two about crypto. Wait, I don't know if they're going to fall for the old dummy wallet. Yeah. That's actually. I mean, you shouldn't be holding that much Monero on, you know, any. A hot wallet. Hell if you're carrying around. Yeah. Seth Yeah, it's funny you say that because I literally someone asked for this decoy wallet feature on on x the other day. And that's exactly my response was like, you're kind of it's kind of like a weird case of chicken before the egg thing. Because if no one uses decoy wallets, like why am I going to spend the time to implement it? And if lots of people use decoy wallets, the muggers who know about crypto who are going to be the ones asking you to open up cake wallet on your phone, they're going to know that decoy wallets exist. And then people who don't have decoy wallets are going to get screwed. And people who have decoy wallets are also going to be screwed. So it's like, it's a really weird case where like to me, decoy wallets are also kind of security theater. Like you said, like if you have enough money to really need to have a fake wallet, you the real money shouldn't be on your phone, it should be on a hardware wallet, it should be on something like Doug Access is yeah, yeah Yeah, and the safe over there. Yeah, I don't have access to those ones Elliptic curve tip 70 cents tipped using cake wallet cool. I get it So yeah, what other features what other what other features were recently lost should be covered Seth So those are the main things from a Monero perspective. The other ones that are a little bit older that we launched around the time of Monerotopia are Ledger support for Monero, which were the only cross-platform wallet that has Ledger support right now with I think the Ledger, you can do Ledger Nano S, the really old one on Android, because it still requires USB, but all the other ones, Flex, Stacks, Nano X, you can use on Android and iOS. Really seamless integration. And we're constantly working to improve that. I have some more improvements coming in probably the next release as well to make that a little bit more seamless. That's a big one for sure, just so you can use one app and have all of your wallets there, but not have all your private keys there. So like we talked about, if you get mugged and the mugger knows what cake wallet is, you're not gonna be able to access your life savings at a moment's notice, which is generally a good thing. And the other one that's really kind of in the vein of that, that we soft launched at Monerotopia is called Cupcake, which will basically be a way to turn an old phone into a hardware wallet. It's a special app that intentionally has no network access, very bare bones with the idea that just acting basically is like a hardware wallet or a hardware signer, where you keep the keys on the secondary device that probably you keep offline all the time. The app itself can never access the internet, but you probably also wanna keep the old phone itself off the internet as much as you can. And you use that as a hardware wallet. And that really opens it up to so many more people. Cause like, there's so many places where not only the cost, but also the risk of buying a hardware wallet and having it shipped to your door is just not worth it. So being able to use it. Doug U.S. target, right? It makes more sense to just use an old piece of hardware that everybody has access to so you can't be pinpointed as somebody that needs the hardware. Seth Yeah, you can't have your full name and home address leaked on a database on the dark night because you bought a hardware wallet Yeah, that's that's a it's a slight advantage. So that's that's fully launched and It's it's still an open beta. So it's something like you can install it from the Play Store today You have to use it with cake wallet Technically, you can use it with feather all that I think right now as well It's not a standalone do everything app like it's just it keeps the private keys and it signs transactions That's all it does. It's very intentionally minimal and you would use cake wallet to pair it with to do all the rest of the functionality I would say it's in a pretty alpha state right now And it's something that we're we just shifted our focus back to over the past few weeks So that's another one that like I would like to see At least like a drastically improved version before Monero con Maybe for release before then but I don't have any promises around that I need to talk more to the team Because like I said, it's just kind of shifting back into our focus as we've had so many other things going on But it doesn't work today. We're expanding it right now also to be not just Monero So you'll be able to use it for Bitcoin initially as well and we'll add probably at least like coin Probably some other cryptocurrencies as well down the line But that'll be a really cool one I mean there's so many people have an extra like their old Android phone that they never sold or Something like that lying around that you can just turn into a hardware wallet by installing an app It's a it's a pretty awesome way to be able to to make use of of old tech to do something really novel Doug Yeah, 100 percent. That's like the it's kind of similar to the Monero's you like sidekick. Yeah. Yeah Seth Yeah, yeah, very similar concept. Doug very cool man anything else and then right I think I think you covered like I said there's so many things they're talking about all the non-minero stuff right I know I know that's what I was gonna say they like in the non-minero aspects of steak that like people should have their eye on that's just like a really Seth Yeah, I mean, on the non-minero side, like, obviously, Monero's obviously the nearest and dearest to our hearts and continues to be the primary focus. But like all of you know, I am a trader and I'm not Monero only. So I've loved other cryptocurrencies. I think Bitcoin still provides a lot of value and used properly. I really like some things with Litecoin, like Mweb, the mobile extension blocks, which is something where Cake was the first implement on mobile and it's a really, really seamless user experience. If you want privacy in Litecoin, and I know that a ton of people use Litecoin as their on-ramp to Monero. So that's like one of the reasons that we've focused on that as well. Really outside of that, on the Bitcoin side, like the two biggest things that I'm really excited for that aren't out right now but are coming are we're actually working with one of the main silent payment devs and researchers who was one of the main people who actually wrote the specification stuff. He's going to join the Cake team on an advisory basis, we're working closely with him to really make silent payments a drastically better user experience and to make them something where you can easily self-host the actual software piece of it as well. So you could self-host the scanning aspect of it, kind of like LWS, a little bit simpler, but kind of like LWS where you would offload the scanning to a server that you run so that you never have to deal with the scan time in the background to be able to use it. And then the other thing with silent payments is also just we have some other just improvements that we need to make overall and background sync will be a huge win for silent payments as well because it has the same problems as Monero with sync. You have to sync all the blocks, you have to find which transactions are yours, the same kind of UX hurdles. So background sync is going to be a really good hit for that. And then PayJoin is another really good Bitcoin privacy tool that's seeing your resurgence and Cake's going to be leading the way on that. I think those are probably the main ones for me. I guess the only other one that I'd say just kind of keep an eye out is we have some really cool things coming for CakePay. So if anyone listening doesn't know CakePay is a service where you can directly within Cake or via our website, you can buy gift cards and debit cards with no KYC, with really well-preserved privacy, paying in Monero, Litecoin, Bitcoin, Lightning, pretty much anything you want to pay in and be able to use that in the real world with merchants that you love. By far and away the most popular are debit cards because obviously you can spend them wherever, you can add them to Apple or Google Pay, it's a really seamless experience. And then gift cards as well, which are obviously merchant specific, but have some other advantages. So we've been working like so much of my time over the last few months has been dedicated to try and improve that and find some better upstream vendors. Seth So we're really excited to bring some big stuff to CakePay and make it a much better user experience with I'm going to leak some alpha with in-app redemptions coming back to CakePay where you can actually buy the gift card and get the gift card all in the app in seconds and scan the QR or barcode, whatever. So you can actually like go to Lowe's, pick out your order, scan it all, buy your gift card while you're standing there with the register, scan it and walk away, always paying with Monero, never dealing with fiat. So that's still a work in progress. I don't have any firm ETA on that, but that's something that. Doug Yeah, but I'm glad you guys, you know, kept with that because there was some bumps in the roads there. Man, we had a backtrack a little bit, but now you're bringing it back to the same level of usability that's fantastic. Seth Yeah, it's a it's a it's one of your spaces that I feel like kind of like Monero is just constantly under siege Because of the the lack of KYC in the specific products that we target like there are KYC products that we could offer And I think we probably will offer like a high limit reloadable KYC debit card for those people who are okay with that Because when you're interacting with the fiat world, there's just it's very because of how broken the world is It's very hard to not do that To do that while not giving up personal ID So obviously as we're trying to fight against that It's a lot of the same kind of headwinds that we face in the Monero community of just the pushback of hey If if we can't have every little bit of detail on customers, we're gonna strip away this functionality. And so do you think that? Doug stay, like once you do get it working, do you think it will be pretty reliable for like here in the US or like it's going to be swinging back and forth depending on how like regulations go or we're like out of the woods? Seth Yeah, I think so on the you have to kind of separate it like on the gift card side, 100%. I'm not really worried about that at all. That side is pretty straightforward. And the regulation and the actual like supply chain of that is is really good. So like on that side, I think, yeah, we'll, we'll nail that. We'll get the good user experience back within appredemptions. And that will be really rock steady. The part that's really hard is the debit card part specifically in the US. So we like, we can have some really good offerings that are non KYC outside of the US. I know we have a really big EU following for cake wallet specifically. So that is something that we're pursuing, but we are still overwhelmingly US centric at the moment. So obviously, we're trying to serve that market segment well. And unfortunately, the US government's pretty idiotic when it comes to this stuff and have some crazy limits. So to protect ourselves and to protect our partners and to protect you, we are going to have some stricter limits in the US for that. For the debit card side than are necessary for other jurisdictions because there's just there's not a way around it, unfortunately. So that that's not something that we can directly fight. I mean, I would hope that maybe that's something that will be repealed or changed because say what you want about the Trump administration, which I think is understandably divisive. His very relaxed approach to crypto has already repealed and reversed so many horrific regulations and legislations over the past few months already. So I'm hopeful that maybe that will change. And unfortunately, like I know, Monero's the like crypto anarchy thing, like I want to be that as well. But we are still a company with people whose lives depend on this. Like we're not going to we're not going to go against the US government and try to pick a fight there. So hopefully they'll relax things a little bit and that'll let us bring that out. Doug Ready one wouldn't take while it no longer exists. Yeah Seth No, so many other more things to do. Doug Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. And yeah, it does seem like things are loosening up. And we're seeing some good news of regulations and the attacks, the pinpoints of attacks have been taking place against people that are building privacy tech, providing private tech tools. Do you think things are going to loosen up there, like with the Samurai wallet guys and tornado cash? Yeah. I know you follow that stuff pretty closely. You have a pretty. Seth Yeah. I mean, we've gotten really encouraging statements and repeals of a lot of the underlying like foundational stuff that was the cause of the samurai wall indictment and the chain of cash indictment. So that is encouraging. Unfortunately, the process doesn't work where if the foundation is removed, the cases just go away overnight. So it's very possible these cases still go to trial and we still have to see this hash down in court. Now the plus side is all of the very positive pro crypto or at least not anti crypto things that have happened provide a much, much better footing for the defense to defend Roman Storm and the samurai wallet devs in court. So it does go to trial like it is still much more optimistic now than it would have been otherwise because there's a lot more ammunition for the defense to use, especially in some of the statements that have been made about tornado cash or the tornado cash sanctions. A lot of that stuff can really be used as a as a weapon in court by the defense. So I'm hopeful that in the worst case, it goes to trial and the defense is able to win much more easily because of some of the stuff that's changed. But obviously, the best case would be that these cases are just dropped by the DOJ, something that could happen any day. We don't know if or when that will happen. The tornado cash one seems probably a little more likely to be dropped than the samurai wallet one. But yeah, still just kind of waiting and seeing those trials take so long that we're still months out from the actual trial date of either of those. So there's still a lot of time for that to be dropped. And then, in the absolute worst case, they lose the trial. There's also the possibility of a presidential pardon. But I think unfortunately, the tornado cash and samurai cases are probably a little too small to get Trump's ear unless somebody closer to him really cares about them. But obviously, we'll keep we'll keep you in the drama and trying to raise some awareness of that to try to get that changed. But yeah, I mean, overwhelmingly, the things that have happened around crypto regulation have been really positive. And I think the main thing I would have to say are, let's not let that change how we approach building Monero. Like one of the beautiful things about Monero is that we've been building it from the ground up. I say we I'm not a dev. I don't know why I say we. The people actually building Monero have been building Monero from the ground up. We just talked about it. Yeah, we just talked about it more eloquently. I put things on top of Monero, but I don't build Monero. But yeah, they've been building Monero for this intense adversarial environment for day one from day one. So when like all this stuff happened over the last two years, samurai wallet, tornado cash, it didn't it didn't change anything about the trajectory of Monero. Seth Like this this was what it was built for was to be resistant to these types of nation state attacks. So that was like that was really encouraging to see it was really a good affirmation of what Monero and the people who have come in and out of the ecosystem of the years have have done that that was right. That was intelligent. That was the correct move, even when sometimes we were laughed at for being a little too paranoid back in the day. But I will say like, as things ease off, let's not also let that shift our perspective and make us think that we can take it a little easier because the regulation has changed. Because just as it in three months took a complete 180 in three and a half years, when we get another president, it could take another 180 and get even worse. Like it's not it's not something that's in control. Yeah, it's, it's not set in stone or anything like that. So definitely keep pushing on that. And try to make like, like, let's push within those, like positive regulatory boundaries as we can, especially when it comes to like interacting with the fiat world, you just you kind of have to live within what you get there. Doug Yeah, that's the point I try to stress right like obviously we got to do the cypherpunk thing non-stop 100% let's assume the worst at all times or under attack those completely decentralized means of on boarding off boarding But does it mean we shouldn't fight on the other end? And not take an easy win if if things are loosening up, right? Yeah Seth Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that's like, that's really cool that I think gets a little forgotten in the Monero community sometimes is entities like Cake Wallet, which are a company that make money that have connections within the space, I have so much, uh, like it's, I don't know how to say this, so that's sounding weird, but I have so much more power and influence when I have conversations with businesses and entities in the space to get them to accept Monero or to get them to think positively of Monero and start to think about how they would use it and how they would integrate it, that like we can do some really awesome things, especially when the regulatory headwinds aren't as harsh like they are right now, like just able to have a conversation with Alchemy Pay, which is an exchange that's in like 170 countries and just talk to them to add Monero, they added Monero, and now lots more people have a fiat honor up to Monero. It is KYC, which obviously isn't my favorite thing. I would rather people come in through other methods and we'll keep pushing that, but that was a cool win. Another one is Coggy, which is just a fantastic search engine. They've had Bitcoin payments for a while just because the connections that I've been able to make with them, I was able to convince them to accept Monero, give them exactly the tools that they need because of awesome work within the Monero community and see that happen. So it's like these are fantastic times when people are less scared to really push for more and more businesses, more and more people, more and more exchanges of some type. I'm more care about like instant exchangers and KYC exchanges, decentralized exchanges, devs, to push them to lean more into Monero because they don't have to be as scared right now. We can build really aggressively right now in those situations where there is like a direct like regulatory or legal framework that we have to build within as things are a little bit more relaxed right now, and it's just cool that being a part of cake and just some of the influence that we wield, we can use that to help grow the Monero ecosystem. While we also just build just badass freedom tech around Monero as well. So it's a pretty awesome place to be in and it is encouraging that in these last few months, we've gotten a little bit of breathing room on the regulatory side of things that lets us be a little bit more free and expand the ecosystem much more quickly. Doug So what do you say to people like the hard, the most hardcore Monero people out there who are like, you know, we shouldn't be integrating with any centralized exchanges that require KYC. We should just completely be building our own economy outside of theirs. Screw the noobs. If you really need Monero, you'll figure out how to get it. And we'll just weed out those that don't actually need it that are just like actually speculate on it instead of actually out of an ead. What's the response to that? Because that's that seems like what I'm up against, right? I'm arguing the other side. I honestly, I see a great benefit in being able to onboard more noobs more easily and that there's great strength that can come to the project that way. We have more liquidity, we have more people using it, we're normalizing it more. It's not this tool that's used by like shady people on the internet. It's a tool for everybody. I want to push in that direction, but what is your response to the opposing arc? Seth Yeah. I mean, I'm all on board with you. I think the important thing to keep in mind that is, is if we're not compromising what Monero is from a technological sense or from a usability sense, we should be all for more exposure to the average individual. Like, I hate KYC exchanges more than practically anyone. I haven't used a KYC exchange in years. I've been PTP only for a very long time. And so I definitely understand the vitriol towards KYC exchanges. But the thing you have to remember is, how did you learn about Monero? How did you first use Monero? How did you first get exposure to Monero? I think for the vast majority of people, it came through a centralized exchange or some influencer or something. It didn't come through some shadowy back alley relationship that they had. It came through one of these normal means that most people get onboarded into the crypto space through. And the beauty of Monero is that once you're actually using Monero, you're getting all of these fantastic benefits. Even if you purchase it from a KYC exchange, yes, there's the record that you purchased it. Yes, your personal ID is owned by a central entity and is probably going to be stolen or shared, which are awful things, but you also have been exposed to this tool. And so I think the line though has to be, don't do what Zcash does. And I think that's what a lot of people get scared of when we talk about expanding Monero into more places, getting more businesses to use it, getting more exchanges to list it. They think that that means that we're just going to sacrifice everything that Monero is. But no, we're not going to introduce transparent addresses in Monero because it means more regulatory success and it means more exchange listings. We're not going to compromise that, but I think we also don't have to make it harder than it has to be and intentionally try to push for these things to happen without just doing the work to try and expand access to Monero. And I think that's the main thing for me is you want as many people as possible exposed to Monero, but you don't want to dilute the tool that Monero is. So I think as long as we can prevent diluting the tool itself and keep building for that adversarial environment, building things like Sarai so that no matter what we have an on-ramp to other cryptocurrencies, we should be all four people getting exposed to something like Monero on a centralized KYC exchange because inevitably they use Monero. They realize how amazing it is. They realize how cool it is that like, hey, oh, no one can see what happened in this transaction. I thought crypto was the complete opposite of this. They suddenly get orange pill, whatever you want to call it. And then they start to do that jump into P2P and to chatting with the Monero community and to personal privacy. And that's almost always the gateway. It's almost never that someone's coming in this shadowy back alley thing. Seth And then the side piece and the thing you briefly mentioned that I'll hit on too is just like we really need to normalize that privacy isn't this like cypherpunk only crypto anarchist thing. It's like one of the worst attitudes that we can take that we have to be these hardcore anti-government individuals to want privacy. And we do ourselves a disservice because we make ourselves much easier to target and shut down and to censor by making it easier to talk poorly about the people who do seek privacy. So when we shift that perspective saying like, hey, the business owner wants privacy, they don't want someone to see how much money they're spending, what suppliers they're paying. When we shift the perspective to being like just the average Joe expects financial privacy, and when they don't have it, they're shocked, that starts to shift towards less being like, oh, you're a weirdo because you want privacy and more to like, you're a weirdo because you're okay with all of your financial data being exposed on a blockchain forever. Like that that is part of that push. And a lot of times that happens in places that maybe aren't cypherpunk and maybe are crypto anarchists. But that's okay, because that's the way that we were able to really evangelize the mission and get people understanding that there is this thing called Monero. So yeah. Doug We're the normal ones. It's like using money privately is normal to do the other way. So what do you say? Do you think, I mean, is it fair to say that there is no loss? Obviously with the current Monero Tech with ring signatures, there is some sacrifice that can be made if we're using centralized exchanges with KYC. Most full chain membership proofs, is it fair to say that those things go away and we could, you know, justify using centralized exchanges with KYC and that there isn't any major sacrifice in privacy or attack that can be done on Monero by the data that could be collected by exchanges. Seth Yeah, I think you're much closer to the state that I think is the more novice understanding of how using a Monero from a KYC exchange is. I think the expectation has kind of been previously that, oh, you can use a KYC exchange and you just withdraw and you have great privacy, you don't have to worry about it, which is kind of a simplification. And obviously, as we've learned through things like OSPEED, OPCEED, I have no idea how to say the acronym, but the practical reduction in ring size due to the way that the ring selection algorithm works just due to some of the evaluative attacks that we know about. We know that there are ways that you can be individually targeted by essential as exchange if someone else on the other side of a transaction is working with them. So FCMP does resolve that. I would be hesitant to say that your privacy is perfect and there's no loss because you're using KYC exchange, but it's, I would say near perfect is probably a better term around it, which makes it much more to the place of if the thing that you're worried about is being surveilled and not that your jurisdiction knows that you own Monero, then you can use a KYC exchange. I still would recommend not using one because there are just so many other risks with obviously the nation state knows, so they could come to your door and say, we know that you own Monero, you need to give it up, even though I think that's a little bit of a far fetched example. But the more common one is a hacker breaks in, steals the KYC info and the transaction data from an exchange. And they know that John Doe lives at 123 Monero lane and they know that you bought a hundred thousand dollars of Monero and they come knocking. And that's where more of the risks to me from the KYC side are. It's more that it just makes you more of a target either from a nation state or a hacker. So there's still downsides, but you're right that if you actually are withdrawing self custody and you're actually using Monero post FCMP, you're gaining fantastic privacy after you withdraw on and start to use it. So it's weird to say, but it's like the only thing that I would recommend if you're using a KYC exchange. Because with drawing a deadline from a KYC exchange, Doug Awful by the the meme right like if you have to withdraw from like from a centralized exchange. You should be using Monero Yeah, yeah, it's realistic Don't get whatever crypto you want to get outside of it after and what's your in the darkness? Mm-hmm Yeah, maybe we get there. Do you think we get that? Do you think we'll see more Relistings or like do you think we'll see Monero being listed on an exchange in New York? That's something I've been pushing for I want to actually take some actions towards that. What do you what's your thing? Seth I think it's just so hard to predict because it really just depends on like Fenson and Fat F and all of these headless bodies that get to decide our financial fate. It's hard to really predict exactly what would happen around that. I think there's still a prevailing narrative that it's a bad idea to list Monero because it does make you a bit of a regulatory target even if it's not technically illegal and there's no issues with it. I think on the optimistic side, I would say that the death of Operation Showpoint 2.0, which all the various pieces of what made that possible of essentially de-banking people who did anything with crypto, which I think Monero was really the test for before Operation Showpoint 2.0 happened. With that being dismantled, it certainly makes me a little bit more optimistic that maybe some more exchanges in the US specifically would be open to listing Monero, but it's a world that's so hard to predict. I'm not sure I would say that there's any certainty of that happening. Doug There used to be other politics at play too, right? Not just right like, I don't know, I think there's something going on there with Zcash and Monero too, right? Because these are these changes, they have Zcash listed, right? Well... Seth But now Binance is talking about delisting them, which I think is hilarious. Yeah, but I don't think that's going to- We'll see. I mean, Zuko begging on Twitter should be a pretty good sign of how close it is to happening. I can't imagine he would write this massive tweet thread getting on his knees and begging Binance to not delist Zcash if it wasn't a likely thing. I mean, they're on the other end of the spectrum where like, yes, you can gain privacy on Zcash, but just no one uses it. So the cost of keeping Zcash integrated from a technology perspective and like an infrared cost perspective is just not worth it for exchanges. So they're in a very different place where like, I don't think Zcash isn't getting delisted because they are private, because no one uses Zcash generally, and almost no one uses the privacy than even more than that. So I don't think that's the problem for them. It's just that they are technologically more complex than something like a Bitcoin, and there's just not any real demand for what I've seen. So I think that's the bigger problem for them and the reason that they would be delisted. One more thing. I do need to hop off here in a minute, but yeah, I know. I know I could too. I didn't realize the time either, but just the one last thing that I would say is like, don't forget the symbiote relationship that Monero should have with cryptocurrencies, specifically like Bitcoin and Litecoin, because as long as those things have on and off ramps, Monero has not an off ramp. Like right now, this is seamless within cake. If you can get Bitcoin or Litecoin, you can get Monero in like two taps, and it's painless. So as long as those things have on and off ramps, we can rest easy because actually going crypto to crypto is very straightforward right now. Normally that's centralized, but with like Sarai, you'll be able to do that in a way that's decentralized and permissionless as well. So I think that's another thing to keep in mind is all the antagonism towards all the other cryptocurrencies and all that, to each their own, whatever, if you want to have this kind of tribalistic mantra like you can, but just keep in mind that a lot of the lifeline for us in terms of on and off ramps comes through things like Bitcoin and Litecoin. So seeing them continue to have good on and off ramps is really, really helpful for Monero and means that we'll continue to have on and off ramps no matter what. And there should be this symbiotic relationship. Like we should be talking to Bitcoiners about how they should be using Monero for spending because it's just infinitely easier than Litecoin. It's better privacy and they can easily swap back and forth. Like this should be something that's a little bit more of a push from the Monero community and not just I feel like a select few of us and that symbiotic relationship really should be there. And that's again, just one of the things that I love about cake is like, I know it sounds weird. Seth I love that we're not Monero only because I think there is not only value in other cryptocurrencies approaches to things individually, but also just that, like you said at the beginning, what Vic says, all roads lead to Monero. All of these things are fantastic on-ramps to Monero. And overwhelmingly we see people using them as on-ramps, not off-ramps. And I think that's just a really cool thing. And that's a unique aspect of cryptocurrency where it's just so seamless and permissionless to go between cryptocurrencies that we really benefit when things like Bitcoin, et cetera, gain broader adoption too, because people ultimately float to Monero for the amazing digital cash that it is. Doug You did mention Zcash and we mentioned the addresses and I know I want to let you go. I don't want to open up a full can of worms here, but I mean, I feel like Zcash community has been more aggressive lately, right? They're trying to really win back the adoption that they lost. What's your current overall take on the Zcash project? Seth I mean, to be honest, Zuko blocked me for like the 17th time a couple years ago. I don't even know why I like I, I literally Doug You're the most diplomatic person like me, I could see maybe, I could very easily see things being getting misinterpreted with how, with you, I mean. Seth I have no idea why. Before the last time we walked to me, we actually had a video call and chatted through a lot of things like issues I had with Zcash, things that I liked, like what I love about Monero, like we actually had a face-to-face chat and then like the next time I checked his Twitter feed, I was blocked and I don't know why. Doug That's kind of like it was me. We had an original conversation. It wasn't a video. I wish it was, but wow. Seth Yeah, so I don't I don't like I don't really keep up with much of the Zcash community because the most vocal people on there I had to mute or block because they were just like harassing me and spam replies No matter what anytime I talked about anything. They were commenting about Zcash. It was just like ridiculousness. I'm I'm usually pretty Cautious with meeting and blocking people but I just I had to block a lot of their main accounts or meet them So I my life is much better after doing that I'm not gonna undo it. So I don't really know what their latest boys have been but I mean there's just to me there's FCMP is the the final nail in the coffin like who the hell is gonna go you see cash Doug So that'd be like well that you know, that's not a full upgrade right cuz it doesn't it doesn't protect back. It's backward privacy, right? You could still Transactions that have taken place up until the point of full chain membership proofs can be potentially attacked Seth Yeah, I mean, they're correct. Like, especially in like a post-quantum world, a quantum computer could undo the privacy that's provided by some of the stuff within Monero. So like, that is, that's one of the main downsides to blockchains that people need to wrestle with is like, one of the advantages of a layer 2 like Lightning is things are ephemeral, they're not stored forever to be looked at forever. Like, when you talk about, I made a Monero transaction today, someone could be looking at that in a thousand years. What, like what surely we're not going to have further protection against whatever attacks have been devised then be them be they post quantum or something else. So I mean, that's it's definitely a valid concern. But I mean, like, if we're really talking about zcash, the same thing applies to transparent addresses, like the best majority of things on zcash are written forever in a blockchain and completely transparent. So like, I think it's it's surely just a nonstarter from a debate perspective. But it is a good reminder for us that the things you do on chain do live forever, even if they have pretty good privacy right now. We don't know what that actually means forever. And so you need to be you need to be concerned about holistic privacy, don't just assume that because your Monero transaction is private today, that you don't need to worry about anything else. You don't need to protect your identity, that you don't need to care about your digital privacy, you don't need to do any of that, because it is really a holistic thing. And if someone breaks through a Monero transaction, but all they get is that you used an email alias, and they have no shipping info or anything like that. It's kind of a dead end. But if you're really loose and careless about your real name and your real address, and a reused email address or stuff like that, it can be a lot more detrimental. So I think just a reason to think more holistically when you think about privacy and not just kind of say in Monero, I trust for everything. But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just not there's no reason to be a I don't think we should even worry about Zcash because we can't change anything about Zcash. Like, honestly, the fact that like people within the Monero community even constantly talk about Zcash frustrates me because I'm like, who cares? They've done some cool things. They've done some terrible things. They're not Monero. We're Monero. Let's do Monero. Like, let's just make Monero amazing. And if it's better than Zcash, awesome. We have an amazing tool. If Zcash somehow ends up being way better than Monero, awesome, I would switch to Zcash. I'm not I'm not tribalistically religiously tied to Monero. Like, I don't really care. What I care about is what is the best tool for freedom. And thankfully, Monero has been that for a very long time. And with FCMP, Monero is cementing itself as that for the foreseeable future. I can't say forever, because obviously he knows what happens in the future. But for the foreseeable future, Monero will be the de facto standard and will continue to cement its throne there. Doug And we'll leave it at this last question, I promise. Is there something like, you know, if you could command the entire Monero army, which you basically can, what do you see as things that we should be very keen on and be aware of so we don't stumble and lose the adoption, the advantage we have in terms of where we are, like what kind of hubris do we need here to make sure that we maintain this lead? What should we be thinking about? Seth Yeah, a couple things come to mind. I think one is kind of similar to what I said about the symbiotic relationship that we should have with Bitcoin, and that extends to the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole. Talking about things like BTC Pay Server, which is by far and away the most used self-custodial payment processor in the Bitcoin space, like far and away, it's not even a contest, they have Monero support. They've been extraordinarily generous with how they've handled the handoff of Monero support to a plugin and the latest version. They did the bulk of the Monero community, and they have massive reach within the crypto-friendly margin ecosystem. I see this trend within Monero where we always want to roll our own everything. We always think that we need to make this because we can make it better in Monero only, or we need to make this because it's not perfect in this existing tool. But we forget that a massive part of even why Monero is successful today is because of network effect. And when we have opportunities to improve or increase the usability of Monero in an existing tool like BTC Pay Server, we should be all for that. Because it means that we're suddenly getting Monero in the hands of thousands, hundreds of thousands of merchants. I'm not sure exactly how many people use BTC Pay Server, but I'd say it's at least just a thousand. Doug Upgrades were made, right? I mean we had we had Devrick working out. He was working at Monero topia They kicked it off and then they did a CCS that Seth So we didn't make the upgrades. The BTC pay team did them for us, which was very surprising. There are still more upgrades that need to happen and actual like long-term maintenance needs to really be solidified. Like I've been one of the main people maintaining that integration and I should not be. Doug CCS move forward though on the Monero side though, right? I know there was controversy like Seth Yeah. Last I checked, there was still controversy because a lot of the stuff needed to be updated because the BTC Pay team did a lot of the foundational work. A lot of the deliverables and stuff just weren't necessary anymore, and a lot of it needed to shift to just maintenance and primarily allowing one person to host BTC Pay server and allow multiple stores to use the same instance and use separate Monero wallets. Because right now that's one of the downsides of the Monero integration is it's one Monero wallet per BTC Pay server instance. So if I'm onboarding merchants to my BTC Pay server because I want to make it simpler for them, all their money goes to me and then I have to figure out a way to dole it out to them regularly. So that's one of the biggest deliverables that needs to happen is enabling that per store wallet functionality. Doug The narrow community needs to be open to integrating and building bridges with other cryptocurrencies, whatever, building bridges especially. Seth As long as we're not compromising what makes Monero amazing, we should be all for getting Monero into places that already exist, into tools that already exist and have broad reach. Because that just does so much of the work for us. We don't have a marketing team. We're really bad at marketing. We don't have a design team. We're really bad at design. There are so many things that if there's an existing tool that is open to Monero, we need to lean really heavily into that. As long as they'll have us. I think BISC was an interesting example because Monero, who was far and away the most used thing on BISC, but they weren't as friendly in the sense of making it a very Monero first experience. I think that was a very reasonable move to launch something like Habano because not only do we now have a Monero first experience, but the fact that it uses Monero as the underlying cryptocurrency has so many advantages. We're using Bitcoin as the underlying cryptocurrency. I think I heard it overtook in volume. I saw the headline. I didn't look at it, but that was very surprising to me. I need to check that out because that seems unlikely but I know that BISC has had Monero as the dominant cryptocurrency or the dominant currency pair on there off and on for a very long time. If that volume moves to RitoSwap, I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't actually validated those claims yet myself. I think that's the main thing for me is lean into those opportunities where that other ecosystem is friendly as long as we're not compromising what makes Monero great. The second thing is I would just keep everybody needs to keep thinking about how do we make Monero more user friendly again without compromising what makes Monero great, but how do we improve the experience of the first time we onboard someone? How do we improve the experience of swapping to different cryptocurrencies? How do we make it better and better so that we get closer and closer to the experience people have with a very simple Bitcoin wallet or with a very simple PayPal or Venmo wallet? What's that next step? I think the community as a whole can really pitch in to coming up with ideas on how we improve that and continue driving because the ultimate guarantee of the success of a privacy tool is how easy is it to use. It's not how perfectly private is it because it's very, very hard to win over users because your privacy is slightly better than something else. The far more important thing for people is that it's more convenient without sacrificing privacy. I think that needs to be a key aspect of how we build as well. Doug Seth, man, thank you so much. This is an amazing, amazing way to celebrate Monero's birthday, get all the updates on Cake Wallet. And that's what Cake Wallet is doing and is focused on, right? It's making Monero usable for anybody, everybody, super accessible. The Venmo of Monero without all the bad. That's a new tagline. Don't go away on that one. I just want to get these chats up here just because people tip, and I want to thank them. Sheldon tip $0.50. There is a third option period. Yeah, this is, I guess, when we're talking about how people can obtain Monero, whatnot, KYC exchanges. He's saying, no, use peer-to-peer goods and services exchange so deep and liquid that people can easily get in that way, not from the dark alley or from KYC exchange. We also got a statement. Yeah, yeah, obviously, yeah, that's ideal, right? We have our own circular economy. You're earning Monero by selling goods and services. You're spending Monero. Everything's KYC free, essentially. That is ideal, but all the reasons Seth is talking about need to be open to integrating and building additional ad reps. Harold, Bishop, tip $0.25. Great show. Cake Wall is excellent. Happy birthday, Monero. Thank you, Harold. Yes, happy birthday, Monero. Seth, thank you so much, man. Greatly appreciate you taking all the time to join us. We definitely went well over each other a lot of times. Thank you, man. Yeah, thanks. Bring the narrow birthday. I think you want to throw out there before I close it out. Seth now just as always thank you so much for your tireless efforts around kind of beating the drum on on Monero as a whole like I don't I don't know how you do what you do like it's exhausting to me doing like a one-off two hour pod so I know that you you're pouring so much into into Monero talk and into Monero topian into to all that you're up to so it's been awesome projects Doug XMR Bazaar, XMR Chat, but I'm just like you man. I'm in it. I'm in it for the revolution, right? I just want to disrupt in a positive way, and I definitely, you know, huge thank you to Vic as well I know Vic was potentially gonna jump up today, but he let Seth take the reins. Vic, thanks for tuning in Thanks for everything you do for Cake Wallet and yeah, you know We always greatly appreciate your sponsorship here on Monero Talk. You've kept the skull throughout the year So huge thank you to Vic and I will leave it there and I'll play the outro. Seth, adios, man. See y'all Seth Hi, Monero Land, thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go to MoneroTalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platforms. MoneroTalk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you, and supporting us is easier than ever by typing in MoneroTalk.crypto in your Monero.com or cake wallet send address field to send us a tip. Once again, thanks so much for listening and we look forward to being back next week. you