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Trauma: Can Your Brain Actually Change Back? (Part 2) · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: All behavior and all outcomes make sense in context, right?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: For many mental health conditions, there's what we call kindling theory, in that you have a biological predisposition to something, and then there's a spark that ignites it.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: That kindling gets ignited by trauma.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Laurel Vandertorn is a licensed family therapist who specializes in trauma.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things someone who has experienced trauma can do to heal on their own?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I had to say there's one prescription that is like good for everyone, it's We are back with part two of our conversation about trauma with trauma therapist Laurel Vanderne.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Laurel, thank you so much for joining us again.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Happy to be here.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: In case somebody missed last week's episode, let's start with the very, very basic question of what's trauma?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'll give a slightly different answer just for people that did land, did listen last week.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Trauma is anything where you feel there's a significant disconnect between what you rationally know is true and what your body is telling you is true.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll give an example.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Someone could be in a session with me, and they are, let's say it's a virtual session and they're at home and they're describing a car accident they were in.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: They logically know they are in their home, they're talking to me on their laptop, and that like that they are safe.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yet their body is like, no, you're not.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And their body feels very pulled back into those moments right before and after the accident.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's extremely common with trauma, that you rationally know you're okay, but there's this overwhelming sense from your body that you're not.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the consequence of that disconnect?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: The consequence of that disconnect is that you go through life feeling on edge, that your anxiety is much higher, that your sleep's disrupted, that your appetite is changed, and that your relationships can be a little messier or feel less secure than they are.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people go through life just managing it, kind of white knuckling it, like, well, okay, I I know I'm not actually on the freeway, about to get hit right now.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there they don't have as good of a quality of life as they could if they healed that trauma.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: You described, and I I don't want to redo the first part of this, but that window of tolerance, that there is a place that's healthy and comfortable to be.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Then there are the other sides of it.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: That window of tolerance being the zone where you can think, feel, and act at the same time that you're, you know, you're present, you're aware and you're connected, but you're not super hyper-vigilant and you know, kind of like vibrating out of your skin.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you're also not dissociated or completely just checked out.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So in addition to those things, being hyper-vigilant, being numb or disassociated, is people pleasing also?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: With a more complex trauma, you would see a ton of people pleasing because taking care of others, appeasing, keeping the peace is a survival strategy for a lot of people.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe not a physical survival strategy.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe their physical safety in the home wasn't compromised.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: But we all had to make sure dad was okay.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because if dad wasn't okay, wasn't okay, none of us were okay.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then that carries on in life.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I need to make sure that the peace is kept no matter what, even if it's at my own expense.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then that thing that was once very adaptive as a child becomes maladaptive because your needs are not getting met or expressed, or and you probably are not even aware of them yourself because as a child, you had to suppress them to just keep everything calm.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So using that example, if an adult continues to do that in a time when it's no longer needed to be safe or accept it or whatever it might be, I'll bet that's a behavior that would be rewarded.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'll bet people would say, you're so in tune.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're you anticipate my needs.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that could keep it going, even though it, even though you were never intended to carry that behavior with you through life.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people kind of exploit that, that they find someone like, oh, yeah, you're easy.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need anything from me.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is a great partnership.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for one of you.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to say all behavior makes sense in context.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you get taken out of that context, that behavior may no longer serve you.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if we are noticing any of the behaviors that you just described, and probably more in someone we love or in ourselves, how do we determine, like, oh, this is just the way I've always been, or this is the way I am, and I like it.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or, and or I guess this is a trauma response.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Our trauma often deeply informs who we are and how we move through the world, particularly if it happened when we were young.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And to that I say you you get to keep that part of you.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: You get to keep the good part of you.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when we heal the trauma, then you can relax and enjoy your life more.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're no longer white knuckling it, you're no longer having the sleep disruption, the relationship patterns that don't work for you, or the, you know, kind of physiological and social impact that trauma can create.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Given that life goes on, how would you ever know?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and continues to be challenging, how would you ever know if you're having a reaction to a current challenge or a past trauma?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: What's past is present sometimes, you know, that we often, particularly in relationships, replicate familiar patterns.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I see a lot of people that they meet someone and there is this sense of, oh, this person's familiar.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know this person.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, that may not be a good thing.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so they because it's feels familiar, they know how to engage with it.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I also think that there's kind of a more positive twist on this in that as humans, we're always trying to resolve things.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're always trying to close a loop.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say you had a parent that was a workaholic and uh you marry someone that is also a workaholic, and but they're not as bad as your parent.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And actually they realize, like, oh no, actually, I I really want to like have more quality of life and time with my spouse and kids.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, that's closing the loop that they had that trait, and then they, you know, that there was kind of this correction and that now, okay, now I know what it's like to have this primary person in my life prioritize me sometimes.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: What happens more often is that we pick someone who feels familiar, not necessarily in a good way, but in a familiar way.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then the loop gets worse and we keep trying to resolve it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can absolutely have these corrective emotional experiences in relationship.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love getting to walk with clients through those.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes we just repeat a pattern over and over again and it really harms someone.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody who has repeated patterns that like, I just need a second to exhale here.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want to hear about the corrective experiences, corrective emotional experiences.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Corrective, I mean, those can be incredibly healing if you're not someone that has access to ongoing therapy, looking for, okay, who are people that feel different than what I'm used to?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm working with someone and they're dating and they're like, yeah, you know, I went out with this guy, like, I don't know.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I kind of like didn't get him.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I it didn't like click, but like I can't put my finger on why I'm like, please go on a second date with this person, like actually see where this goes.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Unless I'm hearing a red flag, of course, because it's when someone isn't immediately familiar that to me says, okay, this is not part of a pattern that gets repeated because you don't have that instant familiarity with that thing.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So safety can feel boring.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Safety can feel boring.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: You could you if you're not drawn to it because you're just like, yeah, yeah, he seems like he just like goes to work and then comes home and makes dinner and like, you know, like, uh Yeah, it can feel boring or or just like really unusual, like clothing that fits wrong at first.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and then you're just like, oh no, this, this actually, this is new and it's great.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody who was raised in a, I'll use the word chaotic, unsafe environment.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so childhood traumas.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you get into a situation in your adulthood or or some stage in between childhood and adulthood that is healthy, are you the last person who'd notice it?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how do you how do you sometimes?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sometimes.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I get, but I think that you would have some sense of it being new and different.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, I hope people are seeking it out.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to find something that feels very different.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes people get upset with themselves when a pattern does repeat.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, I thought I was doing something different.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you probably were.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you just can't account for someone else's behavior all the time.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't control all variables.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Another of the top searched trauma questions on the internet.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Does trauma actually change your brain?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna ask you to describe this in a way that doesn't use the word amygdala a lot because that always makes my brain scramble.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, me too.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes, with an asterisk.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: The asterisk is yes, trauma changes your brain.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: It changes how it, you know, you store and process information.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: It makes you more likely to perceive threats, which again, trying to keep you alive makes total sense.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and thank you, brain, for for doing this.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that asterisk is yes, it changes your brain, and it can be changed back.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't want anyone to come away from listening to this thinking, like, well, my brain's been changed.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's all there is to say about that.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Your brain is incredibly plastic.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And plasticity means that it's malleable, it can be changed.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you actually can change your own brain.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can intentionally engage in things that uh that disrupt old patterns.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can, you know, just just before this recording, we were talking about like doing word puzzles and like mental exercises.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: That can change your brain.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And as a trauma therapist, why would I be in this field if I didn't think that we could actually really change it and not just manage it?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of people have been managing their trauma for a long time and they think that maybe it doesn't ever get better than this.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, it changes your brain.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you can heal and not necessarily go back to the way things were completely, because you're gonna want to keep the learnings and whatever silver linings came out of that trauma.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I think that I want to be careful around this just because people are like, yeah, no, nothing was worth going through that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is true.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: But again, a lot of people are hesitant to engage with treatment because they're worried they'll lose their edge.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're worried that they'll become unsafe again or they'll become less themselves if they do the healing work.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And to that I say you get to keep that, and we can relax into a more meaningful and comfortable life.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was a very comprehensive answer, and I want to break it down a little bit.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: So some of it may be repetitive.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So acknowledging that a brain can be changed back, I want to ask you as a trauma therapist, how brains are changed by trauma.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: How as an ex as a result of having a traumatic experience, am I different now?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not in my head, it's in my head.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Different parts of your brain are going to light up differently in response to different stimuli.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm working with someone that has like a complex trauma and their inclination is, uh, let's say it's showing up in relationships as complex trauma does, their inclination is to people please and to always put the other person's needs first.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's no bigger celebration in my office than when someone actually says, Hey, that bothered me when you said that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Either to me, which huge celebration, like to use therapy as a way to practice new behaviors in relationship, or to a partner that they actually start taking up a little bit of space for themselves and seeing, like, oh, the sky doesn't fall.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't get yelled at, there's not a huge negative consequence.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that over time, doing it enough times, doing the new behavior and experiencing a positive reaction, yeah, your brain's gonna change as a result of experimenting with that behavior.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, once it changes and once you're aware of that, where it's like, oh, like life is different now.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: How does that change things going forward for somebody?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've had people describe it as just like, oh, like I feel like I can move, like I'm I can breathe.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's freedom in it, and and that I'm just as present in this relationship as the other person and just as important, which is wonderful.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hearing this as somebody who has not had a very violent relationship.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also trying to listen on behalf of anybody listening or watching who maybe did, and they're like, wait a minute.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's that easy.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: All I have to do is say, hey, no, I didn't like that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And no, no, there are definitely situations where that would not be safe.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this is on an individual basis, me working with people and they're in kind of new dating situations, and like there's there's not been any uh any violence.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: But but again, all behavior makes sense in context.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Someone not standing up for themselves because there would be a violent reaction makes total sense.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And why wouldn't you continue to act that way in other relationships?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: How does understanding that the brain is actually changed by traumas reduce shame?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Shame is such a stumbling block in people getting better.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever there's shame showing up, and it does prevent healing, I think.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's I guess evolutionarily adaptive, but it doesn't really help us as individuals.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just try and shift it into curiosity.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get curious.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you do that?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And truly from a why, not a like, why did you do that?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, big difference.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why, why do you think you did that?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And as a neutral observer, I often have a theory around it that is more grounded in that, like, hey, that behavior made total sense in that context.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not working for you here.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get curious, why do you think you did that?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And people say, Oh, because I'm terrible, oh, because I mess everything up.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Well, I think that you learned the only safe way to engage with this is this way.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: So what what if you tried it a different way?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, oh, I'd never thought of that.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is it hard?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it difficult to make those changes, or is it exciting because it's like, oh my gosh, something could actually change here that has been problematic for me, or probably both.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, easy for me as an outside observer to say, oh, well, what if you just what if you just tried, what if you just tried doing something different?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, yeah, right, Laurel.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yes, the first few times you try to do something different, and and even just to have to shift from shame to curiosity, that's gonna feel really unusual.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's gonna feel like, well, no, I should be shaming myself.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like no one ever has been like shamed into effective change.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like shame just doesn't work.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, maybe in like one or two little examples, but actual deep-seated change comes from curiosity and self-compassion.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So as much as possible, trying to leave that shame, like you can recognize and be like, oh, I'm feeling shame.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: What would the antidote to that be, which is self-compassion and curiosity?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right, we're on to the eighth most asked question about trauma on the internet.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do therapists treat trauma?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Primarily looking at the relationship between therapist and client.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: That relationship should be healing.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: You should feel safe with your trauma therapist, you should feel like you can give feedback and ask questions, particularly if we're looking at complex trauma.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's this saying, you know, we're born into relationship, we're wounded in relationship, and we're healed in relationship.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And your relationship with your therapist is part of that healing.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not good enough to have a just okay relationship with your therapist.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: It should be a strong one where over time you build trust.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you walk in in the first session, you're like, oh yeah, I trust this person.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get curious about why.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there, it's going to be so individualized.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: All trauma therapy modalities are going to have some element of stabilizing, resourcing, building up your capacity for talking about and handling, and then walking you through what happened and through different modalities, whether that's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing or trauma-focused cognitive behavioral therapy, somatic techniques, internal family systems, all of them have their own spin on how they uh actually like the actual mechanism of change there.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I forgot brain spotting is another one.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and but you should be able to ask your therapist like the details, like, hey, so what's actually gonna happen in in this modality?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they should be able to tell you in plain language, if they're kind of vague about it, you can keep asking.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can be like, hey, this is really hard for me.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm putting myself in a really vulnerable position.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I want to know that you have like a map of where we're going.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, everyone's map is gonna be different because everyone's trauma is different.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's very rare that we get like a textbook case where it's just like open and shut.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, five sessions.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: That would be lovely.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: You started that statement saying that your relationship with your trauma therapist has to be strong.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't just say therapist.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: How does somebody know if they're going online or if they're talking to a friend who says, I have a great therapist, if that's going to be a person who would help them with trauma as opposed to some other specialty?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, trauma is so pervasive.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would hope that most therapists have some tools in their kit because I I don't think I've had anyone ever come into my office without some level of trauma.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, maybe maybe it's not having an enormous impact on them day to day.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: But again, like that's kind of like being a therapist and saying, like, oh, I don't do relationship stuff.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: But there are some people that have sought out more training and, you know, kind of engage with it a little more intentionally as far as like um, I'm part of an ongoing consultation group for therapists that do EMDR and like really wanting to be grounded in that trauma modality.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can ask all the questions in the world about that.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would do it in a way that is like building the relationship with your therapist.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, like rather than just like rattling off all your questions, like to actually do it as part of a conversation.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And because sometimes I'll get a phone call and it'll just be someone like with a list of 10 questions.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, oh, like what article did they read?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, 10 questions to ask your trauma therapist.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or AI.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which please don't process trauma with AI.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ask all the questions that you can.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And while you're doing that, building that relationship and saying, like, hey, this is really scary for me.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the ways that it's going to be less scary for me is like knowing what to expect, or kind of like knowing what's coming, or knowing what the map looks like.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And once I know what that looks like, I think I'll be able to like actually sit down into it.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that sounds so like it should be standard and it sounds so natural coming out of your mouth.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been in therapy for decades and have never said it.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for the words, right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we just need to hear the words and that it's okay to say them.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for that.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Another top search on the internet, and this is how it's worded.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: How does trauma relate to mental illness and addiction?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So all behavior and all outcomes make sense in context, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for many mental health conditions, there's what we call kindling theory, and that you have a biological predisposition to something, and then there's a spark that ignites it, and that you actually actually have those symptoms and you know qualify for OCD or major depression or bipolar or whatever it is.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that that that kindling gets ignited by trauma.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a ton of overlap between trauma and mental health conditions.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then with substance use, um, I know that there are some biological determinators of uh addiction and substance misuse.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you didn't have a biological predisposition toward addiction, if you're dealing with, you know, severe trauma response and you know, physiological upset, like you can't sleep, or your appetite is suppressed, or you're just vibrating out of your skin anxious all the time, it makes total sense to reach for a substance to calm yourself down in the short term.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: That coping makes sense.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to feel better.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to have some control.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: You want to have some say over what's happening with your body.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in the short term, it works.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And in the long term, it does not.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then you start to feel out of control, and then you have added trauma that comes with addiction.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And other, you know, scary circumstances you may have found yourself in, or relationships that you were in that were centered around substance, and that they then they kind of start, you're in a feedback loop of trauma and substance.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why they very often go together.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to use the word cause here, but I don't know what to use instead of it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: So if a trauma can impact, lead to, influence things like depression, anxiety, substance use disorders, can treating the trauma reduce the symptoms of anxiety, depression, and substance use disorders or addictions?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean sometimes.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there's a specific order of operations.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I am doing trauma therapy, um, the specific modality I use, I ask people to be sober 24 hours before and after to actually give the brain a chance to do all the building of new neural connections that it is making just to really maximize the impact of that treatment.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there are some people that wouldn't be able to do that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they would need to address the substance use before doing the trauma therapy.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if the substance use has become really pronounced, probably addressing that first and then doing the trauma work once you've built up all of those resources and the ability to handle the really emotionally intense material of trauma therapy, because the last thing I want is for someone who's kind of early sobriety and like, you know, kind of white knuckling it through, like building up their toolkit to start trauma therapy and then get really overwhelmed and then like I can't do this anymore, and then, you know, go out of their sobriety.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there does need to be an order of operations, but in terms of the benefit of trauma therapy to other mental health conditions and substance use, absolutely you're gonna see some reduction in symptoms of mental health conditions with treating the trauma.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: It can be hard to distinguish depression and trauma or anxiety and trauma or ADHD and trauma.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge one.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of overlap.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I would say I just like to be very hopeful.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like there is a lot of hope for people that are struggling.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And figuring out what order of operations you need to go in for your specific case would be really important.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a chicken egg question for you.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if you say have anxiety, ADHD, depression, are you more likely to experience something as traumatic?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Potentially.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're in a really vulnerable place and then something happens that knocks you further out of your window of tolerance.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the last of our top 10 most searched questions on the internet about trauma is what are some things someone who has experienced trauma can do to heal on their own?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any small accessible regulation strategies?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh at the end of the last episode, we did something called calm place.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I give a homework assignment to people when they're working with me.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people have a hard time with it.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that oftentimes we can we can make a little progress here.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I like to ask people to make a list of their top 10 best memories.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, sometimes people that have a ton of trauma, CPTSD, or a lot of substance use, that would be very difficult.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you feel like that's not an easy task, that's okay.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Skip it.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if you think of things and they need to be just like simple.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: It can be something like I graduated high school and no one thought I was going to, and I did it.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a that's a big win.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big positive memory.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or it can be like, I went on a walk with my dog and we just saw like this beautiful blooming plant.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And like we were it just took my breath away.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like these small moments of beauty, connection, meaning.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can make this list of 10 positive memories, and you can kind of mentally go there whenever you need to.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is a healthy adaptive coping strategy that people can use.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like a very specific skills-based thing that I use sometimes.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then as far as other ways to heal yourself, right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about self-healing.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: We know what the human user manual suggests, like eating regular meals, sleeping regular hours, having deep, meaningful relationships, setting boundaries, like all of these things.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they're so much harder than just like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna be healthy.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: All those things so much more difficult than they might be otherwise.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I had to say there's one prescription that is like good for everyone, it's moving your body.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Moving your body, trauma we know is stored in the body.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the more you move your body, your brain will naturally start to process some things.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually have some research on what types of movement are good.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the research shows that for depression, you want to do something that gets your heart rate up a little bit.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I hesitate to say cardio because like I'm not the biggest fan, like, but getting your heart rate up in some way and doing it in a way that is sustainable and fun.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that could be dancing around in your living room with your kids.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like put on some fun music and dance.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: It could be some people like running, some people just find what works for you.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Even like five minutes of jumping rope will get your heart rate up, right?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And for someone who's not able to do those things, being in a chair and doing I do not take mobility issues as a reason to not move.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are capable, like you can't, you have something available to you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever's available to you, use it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: For people that run more anxious and they're kind of like uh up on the upside of the window of tolerance, outside the window of tolerance at the top.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: We know that strength training and weight lifting and resistance training is gonna be really good to regulate your nervous system down.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're someone that has a combination of depression and anxiety, you're gonna want to do a little bit of both.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna do some getting your heart rate up and then some regulating your nervous system down.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone kind of has their perfect balance of like cardio versus strength training.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of hate those words because they're associated with like specific wellness culture that um not everyone enjoys, but for trauma, for depression, for anxiety, movement is going to help everyone.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're in a situation where your reaction feels outsized to the to what's currently happening, what can you do?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you've talked about, you know, tapping yourself and thinking, but are there things you can do in public that it's like, I need to settle myself now.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I can deal with this in a different way or with my therapist later.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the it's really easy to get knocked off when you're already a little off-center.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely it is.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing we all have access to is our breathing, right?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: We've there's tons of stuff out there about box breathing.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can control your breathing.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you deliberately deepen it and slow it down, that is gonna regulate your nervous system back down towards that window of tolerance.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to say that like at a certain point, no amount of coping skills is gonna get you back in the window if you're thrown out of it, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I think that that's why a lot of people reach for a substance or you know, they just kind of like it makes total sense because like none of these like breathing exercises are like think about positive memories.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and for that, you you kind of need a more comprehensive, like expert team helping you there.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: But as far as the things you can do, you can control your breathing.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I would say move your body in some way.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have definitely like gone into a restroom stall and just like um you know, like moved, like kind of shaken my hands out, done some breathing, or um, I'm also a fan of progressive muscle relaxation.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there is basically squeezing different muscle groups really hard and till it gets kind of uncomfortable and then releasing them.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right now I'm squeezing my hands really tight and I would count to 10 and it starts to hurt.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: It starts to be like, oh, I don't know how much longer I can squeeze them.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you release them and then they feel much more relaxed.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's kind of this like it's counterintuitive when you're amped up to like tighten everything.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you do tighten everything and release it, then you you get a little more control over what's going on.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So progressive muscle relaxation would be another tack I would recommend.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: You brought a box breathing.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you breathe in for four, you hold for four, you breathe out for four, and then you hold for four.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you do it slow.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: So breathe in hold out.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is part of its effectiveness visualizing the box?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is it visual, you know?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't have to visualize the box.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think the effectiveness is really triggering the I don't remember if it's the sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system, which actually this does remind me of another coping strategy we can use.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Some people may have heard of the dive technique, which is you may not have a bowl of water available to you, but if you put your face in water, it triggers your brain into thinking you are underwater and shutting down processes that are not essential to you surviving underwater.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So conserving oxygen, putting all of the oxygen that you have into large muscle groups to like help you swim to the surface or wherever you are.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think about being underwater, unless you've had an underwater trauma, like it's somewhat calm.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's quiet.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's that like pleasant pressure on your body and uh that there's something very soothing about that.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a coincidence.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Our brain is trying to help us survive.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you can use that same part of your brain that is responding to a suboptimal experience being underwater to calm yourself when you're in a non-life-threatening situation.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have access to putting your face in water, great.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always like, yeah, but I did my makeup today.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to put my face in water.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: If I was out of sorts, I'd redo it.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: It also works.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can put like wet paper towels or like an ice pack on your face and then just hold your breath.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's the holding of the breath that triggers the nervous system to bring you down.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So as we wrap up the second part of our two-part series here, if there was one thing that you could just say it really would be easier on people living with trauma, other people, and that really is everybody.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: If other people understood it, what's the one thing you wish was understood about the impact of trauma?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're all doing the best we can.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of us could be doing better, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then both exist.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so when someone is really struggling with a trigger or struggling to recover, whether that's from substance use or a mental health issue or what or trauma, like we are all doing the best we can.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And with the right tools and the right support, we can do better.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I know as a therapist, you like to offer hope.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do that while also being reality-based?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, often people come to me and they're not yet ready to entertain the possibility that their life could be pretty great.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And let's say I know that they they kind of have resources and that that there it is an option, but their brain is still in the like, no, we need to stay in survival mode.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I will often just say, like, hey, I am holding the possibility and likelihood that things are going to be a lot better for you.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you're not there yet, but I know it's possible.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Yeah, okay, Laurel, whatever.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, well, I'll just hold that.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I view myself as kind of a hope holder because hope feels threatening to survival when you're in that part of the brain and you're in that way of operating in the world.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's okay if hope feels inaccessible to you, but allowing someone else to hold it for you and to hold the possibility of a much better life and a full recovery, that's really powerful.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Use the word likelihood instead of possibility.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is there an actual likelihood for people who have been through it to get to a better place?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know statistics, but I know that the people I work with are quite likely because they're seeking out therapy.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: They have support, they have in the motivation to change.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you have those things, there is a likelihood.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Laurel.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you sharing your expertise.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy to be here.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to learn more about trauma, go to recovery.com.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: There are resources there, including courses and other videos and blogs.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are also all kinds of treatment centers and peer support, other resources that can help you further learn about trauma and get treatment if you need it.