Latest / Unbilled & Unfiltered's Podcast / James d'Apice. No one's been more of a Lawyer than me!

Transcript

James d'Apice. No one's been more of a Lawyer than me! · Unbilled & Unfiltered's Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: We started off perfect, now we're perfect, everything's perfect.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: Like a lawyer and would do what a lawyer does is the character who I've invented, who I now have to perform.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: And so flick the switch, no one's been as much of a lawyer as this guy.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Conduct CLE over a, you know, a few a few glasses of wine.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: When I say best of luck to them, that's a best of luck to them that I don't really mean because deeply unimpressed then, I remain deeply unimpressed now.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: Our guest today is the founder and principal lawyer of the boutique commercial law firm Raven.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: And he's also a prolific creator.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: More than just a lawyer, he's a legal influencer, an author, a keynote speaker, a podcast host, a radio presenter, even a rapper.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: Many of you may already know him from his long-standing video series Coffee in a Case Note.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm thrilled to welcome James Daffy.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, James.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: It's nice to be here.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've got to say, uh, I'm already having a blast.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: It's been great so far with such a generous introduction.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: And um, you you know we now just need to follow up a great start with uh with a great middle uh and a great end.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: But I'm having fun so far.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, I can guarantee a great beginning.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: We'll see how the rest goes.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Um It can only go down from here.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Is that the answer?
1:12
SPEAKER_01: But it's a great start anyway.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think, yeah, it's very easy to list off the accomplishments for you.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: This was just honestly, I looked at your LinkedIn profile and it's all there.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Um and that's not even you bragging.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: I think you have an amazing digital footprint, and there's a lot out there for people to see, to be inspired by.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: But I guess the first thing I want to start with is Graverman.
1:33
SPEAKER_02: And just to talk a little bit about that process.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: When I say you are the the founder of Graverman, that is you are a solo founder, solo business owner of Gravaman.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: You started a law firm by yourself, correct?
1:44
SPEAKER_01: That is correct.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: And that was is that 2023 thereabouts?
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, coming up on the third anniversary around the corner.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, immediately, how was that experience?
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Surprisingly smooth.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Really?
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think it's easy to stand on the outside, and it's certainly easy with two and a half years hindsight to go, oh yeah, it was pretty easy.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's fine.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: But there's an element where um before you do it, uh you can be filled with anxiety, filled with nerves, filled with worry, filled with what ifs.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: And in the actual act of doing it, it just becomes a reasonably long, reasonably irritating to-do list that you end up just sort of gradually checking through one by one, by one, by one, by one.
2:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: And one of the huge benefits I had in starting it was that my view was that it was going to be more or less a side hustle, right?
2:34
SPEAKER_01: The KPIs of the firm were pick up drop-off kids Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: That KPI has now become Pick Up Drop Off Kids Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, there's been a little bit of a uh scope creep for the law firm, but one of the huge benefits I have or I had and and and indeed have is that my expectations for what Graverman's going to do were very much quarantined and niche and specialists.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: So there's no rocket ship emojis, uh, there was no uh a beautifully designed office space.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: It was a four-year-old MacBook and a five-year-old iPhone, or I might have those years the wrong way around.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, packing a few school lunches, doing a bit of ironing and doing a bit of corporate litigation uh as well on the side.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Just as a side hustle.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, just as a side hustle to see how we go.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, even that's impressive, but I think you're kind of underselling how I guess unconventional it was to start with as well.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: So I think you've been very transparent where Graviman's started, where where it's come from, because it's all uh it's all out there.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: You started a social media account for it straight away, and you gave the very real, this is just a guy with a laptop type of business situation, which starting a law firm, is that the normal way to do it?
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a normal way for me to do it.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: Um there's an element where um I don't look back on that with uh shame, and I don't look back on it suggesting I ought to have done it differently.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: But I do have a kind of gloss to add that in some ways, if someone is coming out and being like, ooh, I'm just doing like a little bit of corporate law around here, don't mind me.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: There's that sort of self-deprecating element where you're trying to sort of excuse any uh flubs in professionalism or excuse any strange non-availabilities between 7 a.m.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: and 9 30, and then 3:30 and 8 30.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, why do your only all your emails come out at 10:30 p.m.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: or 10 a.m.?
4:30
SPEAKER_01: And they seem to be the only time when you're really uh on the emails, that sort of thing.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And so there's that element where early on you kind of want to wear your scars um transparently.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And so uh a lot of my financial reports, for example, are on the internet to kind of say, like, hey, like this is this is the PL of a law firm of this size, and this is what it used to be, and this is where it's going, and here are some comments I've got to make on it.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: And there's an element where um transparency and that buzzword authenticity are a big part of how I wanted to build it.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to say, hey, A1 from day one, we started off perfect, now we're perfect, everything's perfect.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: I preferred to say the quality of legal work Graviman has done from day one has always been extremely high.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: It's a premium offering.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: But the quality of machine I've been using while doing it has been moderate at the start and now has increased since then.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: And so um there were a number of things that are completely non-negotiable, such as the quality of the work and the area of practice and the degree of rigor we apply to the work itself.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: But that work was initially being done at a pair of elastic wasted track pants at a camp table, um, you know, under the house at home.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Um and so there's an element where there are certain inflexibilities about Graviman, and there always have been, and that's sort of the work quality.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Um but around the edges there has been from day one space for other things to sort of flex around.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: So has that been I guess a boon for the way you've uh got clients uh moving forward?
6:01
SPEAKER_02: Because as I understand it, you probably didn't move a big client list with you.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: And then to start with this authentic authenticity first kind of approach, has that changed the normal clientele you would have seen in previous work you did?
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Can I start with the end first of that's right?
6:16
SPEAKER_01: We started with zero clients, um, none none came with me, and that was very deliberate.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, I left my previous firm on extremely good terms and you know, still uh send texts and are in the WhatsApp chats and that sort of thing with some of my former colleagues, and that's fine.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: So there was never a desire to say to move quote quote my practice to you know the new the new firm and transplant it.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: It was always a design um I had in mind to like let's start this thing day one, and day one is you know, we'll start at zero.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: And so that was the plan.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: And so with that authenticity piece, what I've found very useful is that I've been able to communicate pretty pretty clearly of like this is who we are, and also this is who we're not.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: And so if you're expecting a firm that we are not like, that's awesome.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Plenty of them out there for you.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: But if you're expecting a firm that we are like, that's great.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: You will have had an opportunity to form a view about that because we've been very transparent and very authentic about the way we move through the world.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: And so part of it, Ben, is informed by my experience as kind of a junior litigator coming up, where um what was true for a lot of us, um, I think, and Ben, I think I've got a decade or so on you, judging by the fresh, the like the fresh face and your excellent complexion, um, is that a lot of us would behave like a lawyer and would do what a lawyer does and would strain to at all times ensure we conformed to uh sounding, looking, writing, moving like a lawyer does.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: And so to a client or to an opponent or to a colleague, you would strive to be like a lawyer is at all times, and then you would let that mask slip, you know, in a moment of intimacy, sort of six hours into a tiring mediation or something.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: You might say to the client, hey, guess what?
8:00
SPEAKER_01: I like following the cricket uh occasionally.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, you'd allow a moment of kind of interpersonal warmth, you'd volunteer something about yourself, or you'd um let the mask slip or let a boundary down slightly.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: And there's a degree of fatigue that comes from putting a mask on like that.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's also a degree of inefficiency in trying to be all things to all people, it's like trying to be the lawyest lawyer, no one's gonna be more of a lawyer than me.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be the most loyal lawyer there ever was.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: And if that's the ambition, then there's a limitation to that.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: And Ben, if I could just pinball weirdly from that point, we are at the moment grappling with a type of technology that is very much height of the bell curve technology.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: And if the way you want to distinguish your practice is to say, I'm a lawyer and no one's been as lawyery as I am, I'm the lawyriest lawyer ever.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't find that particularly, you know, attractive as a potential client.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't find that particularly exciting or inspiring as an opponent or a colleague or a referrer.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Because the question is always going to be, well, what else?
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And the case of Graverman, we try to be as authentic and open and transparent as we can with that what else.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: And that means some clients I'm sure we miss out on.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't hear a lot about them.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: But the clients we don't miss out on, they've already had an opportunity, by the way.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: We we put ourselves out into the world to kind of understand what we're about, what we care about, and how we move.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: No, that makes a lot of sense.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I mean, even with the experience you have starting a business for the first time, obviously has some challenges.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: Has your approach, I guess, put you like butting heads with anyone?
9:35
SPEAKER_02: Has there been any major obstacles so far in these first few years?
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Sorry if that you don't have to be able to do that.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, we're probably within about a hundred meters of uh of a firm that has branding.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: It's not light years from the branding that uh my firm uses.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: And with thanks to the firm that acted for me, and with thanks to the very level-headed commercial people there, um, there was no real genuine headbutt.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: There was just a little needle to thread, and that needle got threaded nice and neatly, and that's that reflects well on them.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And I say it reflects well on Gravman as well.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: There was one um genuinely irritating um butting of heads in the extremely early days of Graviman, where it began with a lowercase G, and I received about a 10-page letter filled with nonsense from a um from a ridiculous firm who I won't uh name and shame on this podcast.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: But um for reasons best known to them, they remain in business.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: And look, when I say best of luck to them, that's a best of luck to them that I don't really mean because uh I was deeply unimpressed then, I remain deeply unimpressed now.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, there has been a little bit of headbutting.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: And you can tell I'm totally over it, right?
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: But I've completely forgotten about it.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh okay.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: Branding was not the answer I was expecting, but um, yeah, valid concern.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: I I think that's a perfect time to kind of talk about, I guess, branding as you approach it as well.
10:54
SPEAKER_02: Because I think you're quite well known, James, for having an approach to social media, to putting your name out there.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: As you said, authenticity.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: And it's something that it's it's almost curated, but it's, you know, how do you put something out there and appear genuine on these platforms that is often very hard to appear genuine on?
11:12
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm very interested in how you approach just building a personal brand and how that supports, I guess, not just yourself, but your business, your professional life.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: Is there any one way you think about it that you could maybe speak on?
11:26
SPEAKER_01: I hate to return to the buzzwords, but the authenticity piece is so important because um there's probably three big reasons, and I'm probably only gonna remember two now that I've named three.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: One of them is efficiency, right?
11:39
SPEAKER_01: If I'm putting on a mask, almost that lawyeryest lawyer ever that we referred to before, there's a degree where there's a performance there that I've got to summon up and be like, okay, well, I'm on the podcast now, like flick the switch, and now I'm in character as the height of the bell curve lawyer.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: No one's been as much of a lawyer as this guy.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And there's a degree where if you're expending energy trying to be someone else, that's going to be harder and less efficient and slower for you than it is to be yourself.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: And if what you're endeavoring to do is to share who you are, what you value, and the way you practice law, then there's an element where if you're trying to put on an act in order to do that, then you're going to expend energy, firstly, putting on that act for your marketing and branding.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: And then don't forget, you'll have got people through the door attracted to that act you've put on.
12:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not merely just money changing hands and you've sold a widget, you're going to be providing this per person professional services.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: If it's a piece of, you know, complex commercial litigation for two years, three years, four years, five years, a long time.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: And so if I've got someone through the door saying, Oh yeah, you know, I'm a, I don't know, I'm a vegetarian, I love that vegetarian lifestyle, and I'm sort of holding my breath because, you know, there's a 10-day hearing, and I have lunch together with the client over the 10 days of that hearing, just kind of like pretending to be someone I've not, who I've held myself out to be on that initial meeting, there's a degree of um having to adhere to the mask I put on in the first place, and there's an inefficiency to that.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, secondly, um, and it relates to the inefficiency point, it makes it clearer to it clearer when you're communicating about what you do, what you value, and who you are.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Because if I'm trying to create for you, Ben, the kind of person who I suspect you might like, I'm trying to be a chameleon.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think we've all had the experience where you interact with someone who you get along well with, but there's a hollowness to that experience.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: My preference in all my interactions, including this one sitting right here on the podcast right now, to be macro about it, is there'll be people listening who go, I'm not a fan of James.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: That's fine, that's awesome.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: There'll be people listening who'll go, Yeah, he seems fine.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: And there'll be people listening, a very small minority, who'll say, Oh yeah, I actually really, you know, get good energy from this guy, and he speaks to me in quite a profound way.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: Each of those responses is fine, but I'd prefer them to be responses to who I am in a genuine way versus the character who I've invented, who I now have to perform.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: And so if we're thinking about how I'd encourage anyone else to think about how they're gonna speak to market, whether that's on video, whether that's appearing on a wonderful, exciting new podcast, um, whether that's writing a blog post, whether it's shaking hands, making friends, kissing babies at the local football club while you're you know sponsoring one of the awards they give away at the end of the season, it is gonna be about being, again, back to the buzzword, being authentic, being yourself and giving your clients, your referrals, your friends, your family, your community an opportunity to know who you are and what you're about, versus trying to be someone that fits into a box that you've imagined someone else wants to put you into.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: And so if I can make any suggestion to anyone thinking about like broadening their marketing approach or increasing the kind of public-facing element of their marketing approach, it'd be to say, um, you know, there's a degree of you, you know, try to know yourself as best you can or try to follow your own interest and what speaks to you personally, and then let your people come and find you.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh is there a lot of control in what what you choose to be on and what you put out there as well?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Um for someone who's reasonably public online, um, things like my spouse that apparently gets Googled a lot, even things like the gender of my spouse, uh, even things like my um sort of uh household relationships and those sorts of things.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: I mentioned parenting responsibilities earlier.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: That's about the extent I'll ever mention parenting responsibilities.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: So there's a degree where I'm reasonably private in relation to my personal affairs and my private affairs that I share with my family, but I'm reasonably open in relation to other things I'd like to share about.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: So there was a time during COVID when I'd conduct CLEs, so rigorous legal technical training sessions, over a, you know, a few, a few glasses of wine.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: And it'd be eight, eight p.m.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: once a week and kind of sit down, you know, the time my house was under construction, so like find a scabby bit with some exposed bricks and sit down together and talk about corporate oppression, talk about derivative actions, talk about partnership disputes for an hour each time.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And so, on one view, there was a real personal intimacy there.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: You're in my home as we rebuild it, but there's also an element where I'm like, I'm not really exposing very much because it's not going to look like this in another week or two.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: And so the extent to which I've invited people into my lives, there is actually a boundary up.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Now, that's not to criticize anyone who decides to share more of their life.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And this comes back to the authenticity point.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Ben, like I'd love to shout out another Australian creator uh who has the Instagram handle and I think the TikTok handle of Aussie Lawyer.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: This is James Diamond.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: And James is uh firstly an excellent lawyer, secondly, a really charismatic person to interact with.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, uh, thirdly, um, he's a striking like physical personality.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: He's a great looking guy, and health and exercise is a big part of his life.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: And he'll invite you into his exercise regime and sort of choosing his outfits, and you get to like admire the excellent physique he's like constructed over years, and so you get quite an intimate portrait of some of the moments of his day as well.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Now, I think that's awesome as a viewer, like to engage with his content, and also it's something that I would prefer not to share just about myself, and so it's something I like because it's authentic to James, and I know James, and I've met James, and I like James, and I'm like, hell yeah, like I want to see what time you're waking up and what's going on with the ice bath and how your shoulder rehabilitation is going with your surgery.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's an element where I enjoy it from James, and I'd prefer not to share it myself.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: And so, almost back to that authenticity point, um, it might be that you want to share like selfies with your dog or your cute kids and go, oh, meet my new paralegal.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: Great, matter for you.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: That's not something I want to share myself.
17:59
unknown: Yep.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I'd want anyone thinking about a project like this to feel empowered to do whatever is, and again, gosh, how many times have we said the word now, man?
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Whatever is authentic, I'm sorry, to you in doing that sharing.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: That it's a hard word not to use in this situation.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: And I know it's kind of marketing, has kind of taken something that meant to mean so meant to mean something so beautiful, and now it's a it's just a a term.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, if it's become inauthentic, man, then there's a real element of the snake eating itself, right?
18:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, I get actually on that, this is maybe a bit blunt, but you what you're doing is working.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: Your approach to social media, your you're running your own law firm.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: You have a lot on your plate that you're doing.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: But today, this is the first time we're meeting.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: We reached out to you, we're a new podcast, we wanted to get you on here.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Why did you accept early?
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Almost the speed point.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Of like, I try to form a view fairly promptly and often, especially about marketing, about things that are other than my clients' rights, right?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: And things that are like branding opportunities, especially where I perceive the risk to be low apart from my time.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I'll just be like, yeah.
19:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there'll be some where I go, uh nah.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not quite the flip of a coin.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm familiar with the sponsor of the podcast.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm familiar with the ambition of the podcast.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: And we're here in a fairly impressive studio in a fairly impressive part of Sydney.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: And so there's an element where um there's a cold calculated way where I say, ha ha ha, this is gonna have big distribution and that sort of thing.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: There's a degree where I find that somewhat attractive, but I think more attractive is the ability to sit down opposite someone like your good self, Ben, and kind of externalize some of this internal monologue, right?
19:46
SPEAKER_01: The opportunity to actually sit down and reflect is in some ways quite a useful business exercise for me.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: And and Ben, this I'm very, very, very fortunate that this isn't the first podcast I've ever been on.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And I'm hoping this appearance means it's not going to be the absolute last.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: And there's an ability for me to kind of draw a line in the sand.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: So very, very selfishly, being here is a nice opportunity to reflect for myself, um, personally, to think about where the business has come from, what the market, Ben, and I'm sorry to point to you and call you the market.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm the market, yeah.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if you're in engaged in a corporate dispute, you know who to call.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, how how am I perceived?
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, this is a good opportunity to understand it as well.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: So there's a cold calculated underpinning.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: It's also fun to come in, sit with an excellent microphone in front of us.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, yeah, what's up?
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh let us know for season two.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Come, come get at us road.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm allowed to say it, Ben.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: I know you're not.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Um and there's an element where um it's fun.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh you flip the coin and you kind of perceive there'll be some value as well, even if that's just the kind of innate value.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: If we assume this never goes to air, it's still valuable to kind of sit down, chat, reflect, uh, that sort of thing.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: That and it's also a good time to bring up some of the things I mentioned in your introduction.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: You do have, I guess, a rather creative side to you as well.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: We've just talked mainly about Graviman and law, but I guess you have a big history in media, in music as well.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, journalism, music journalism music journalism, right?
21:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: Did you always want to move into law, or did you start kind of in a different direction in the beginning?
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, my dad's a lawyer, his dad's a lawyer, and his dad was a lawyer.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So all I knew growing up was I never want to do that, man.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm too edgy.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, it worked out for you.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm too edgy, man.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so look, I went to university and I um started one degree and got some good marks in that.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: And then I did law as a graduate because I'm amazed, I should get a proper degree as well, quote quote.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: And I thought I was gonna be a pop music journalist, or I thought I was gonna work in pubs, or I thought I was gonna make rap music or um all that kind of thing.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: And um Through that, I did uh what we call P, I was gonna say PLT.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what it's called.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: I've forgotten what it's called.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: PLT.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Your sort of uh I think professional.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: I I I'm so embarrassed that I've forgotten what it's called.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: It is a very, very a moment of authenticity, but it in essence it's your um pre-admission as a solicitor, sort of work experience.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: And I and I I did that at the ABC, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation here in Australia, and that was uh amazing.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: And then I got work in a firm and then another firm, and that was amazing as well, and then throw in a bit of lifestyle creep, and then the profession just started to make more and more sense to me.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's partly because look, partly because you have the benefit of having seen members of your family do it, and so it doesn't feel like an outrageous goal.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, like I watched someone do it for the first few decades of my life, but secondly, because I wasn't on fire to like I watched suits every day and I watched Boston Legal every day, and I couldn't wait to be a lawyer, was more like, yeah, yeah, okay, like let's let's see how it goes.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: There was sort of space for an unfolding enjoyment for me, and I've been very, very fortunate that that has kind of unfolded in a way that I've been able to be like, oh, I've got a bit of competence in this, and oh yeah, I seem to bring people a bit of value, and it seems like there are some things that are slightly easier for me than there are for others, and it seems I can help people a bit more with these kind of issues than they might have expected.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And so it's been a gradual um embrace of legal practice versus an immediate one.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: Right.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: On the creativity point, um making stuff.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: So creativity, like I'm not a nice drawer and I dress in an impossibly boring way with like an occasional exciting, um, exciting swatch thrown in.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: That's a good watch.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll take it.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh I can lend it to you after this if you'd like.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's an element where um I would not fit in well in any like creative industry.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't walk straight into a room and be like, oh yeah, that guy, he knows, he knows what's going on creatively.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: But I've been on a weekly podcast for the last eight years about horror films and my aversion to them.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, I co-host another podcast that's recapping Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares series.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was a battle rapper for like five or six years, only two or three of those particularly successfully.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't know battle rap, that's the one, Ben, where you and I are on stage and you do an insult to me, and I do an insult to you, and we're making it up on the spot in time to a beat.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of freestyled, um, as you say.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: And so there have for me always been, when I say creative outlets, I mean like lit literally making works, as I say.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not I'm not creating anything of great beauty, but stuff that is of satisfaction to me.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And those side quest y type um creative elements have always been important to me in my life, um, and have always been a part of it.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And I think it makes you a better professional as well, if you've got a bit of context for what the wider world's on about, um, and you're not merely just sitting in your track pants on the central coast of New South Wales sending emails and calling people to say, where is this up to?
25:07
SPEAKER_02: I think it it definitely translates to other people as well.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: The w just having, I guess, the gumption to go out there and just try it.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: And and I I'll be honest with you, this isn't like a gotcha moment, but I did listen to your mixtape on SoundCloud.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, let's go!
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Because I will say it's it's in your it's in your LinkedIn bio.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, let's go.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: How many lawyers have like a SoundCloud, which is amazing?
25:30
SPEAKER_02: So I had I had to check it out.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: And it was great.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: Like it's you you talk about, you know, you're not, it wasn't amazing or something like that, but it's you can tell that you are gifted enough and but dedicated.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: I think it was that like you really you gave it a shot.
25:46
SPEAKER_02: You were really invested in it.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: And it seems like music was definitely something that was important in your life, I think.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I like to think it still is.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm already fairly a bee troot-faced kind of person, especially under warm lights.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: So um anyone listening won't be able to see the blush, but I'm I'm I'm blushing here, Bendy, here, that you went back to listen to that mixtape.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: It's a nice feeling to look back on a piece of work and be like, hey, look, well short of perfect.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And I can see why this was only ever like second tier for um the musicians making music at the same time I was.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: But there's stuff on there that I'm really proud of.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: And there's an element where uh when you're not blushing on a podcast thinking about it, um, where you're able to look back and say, um, there was a time when I harboured an ambition to do this, and I gave it a moderate crack.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, you burn 30 or 40 versions of that mixtape and you drop it off to various people and various radio stations around the place and cross your fingers and uh that sort of thing.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And look, it didn't go particularly far, but it's still a nice little um nice little entry to have on the CV and to be disarmed by.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: And there's an element where I'm hopping on to talk about horror films I'm too scared to watch, or to talk about uh, you know, the golden run Gordon Ramsay had before he became the sort of bizarre incarnation we see these days.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, that is an equally kind of interesting side quest to me that kind of r really fills my cup in a way that leaves me then energized to be like, okay, that was like I had to take an hour away from you know corporate law emails in order to like do the kids' lunchboxes or in order to record a podcast about um the bizarre new Netflix series where he's trying to develop a new piece of land in London and all.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure how it's gonna go.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Um and I tend to think that a a whole person um in legal practice is more likely to be a successful legal practitioner over the long run.
27:48
unknown: Yeah.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: There's a version of this where I say, if I never again see my family, never again record a podcast, and never again do anything apart from legal work, I think I could probably squeeze a year or two or three or four of extremely effective, extremely profitable legal practice from that person.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think I can squeeze much happiness or fulfillment or long-term success in any measure that I really have for it, aside from probably financial.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And so my goal isn't to like squeeze every last drip out of myself in over two or three years.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: My goal is to live a life that I'm able to look back on, including a professional, a life of legal professional practice that I'm able to look back on and say, yeah, that that went all right.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: And and I guess starting your own law firm is kind of a step in that direction, right?
28:36
SPEAKER_01: There's an element where Ben, you're like you're a generous interviewer, like we've only got two hours to go as well.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: So everyone strap in.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Now that we're really getting started, um, there's an element where starting your own business is, and I'm stealing this from someone else, and I and I can't attribute it properly.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: I I can't quite put it there, but it's your answer to the question of what would you like to put into the world?
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, the sort of thing I want to put into the world is reflected in the way we donate to charity and do value stuff, the way we sponsor certain community things and sporting things, and the way that um legal practice is done in our tiny, tiny, tiny little niche.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: And so Graviman to me, in part, is an answer to the question of like what was not in the marketplace before that is in the marketplace now.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's probably the best sales pitch for starting a business I can make because there are challenges to it, as we alluded to before.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: It's not all appearing on podcasts and um and sitting very comfortably.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Half of it is me knowing that I haven't checked my emails for 45 minutes and you know what terrifying time bombs are ticking in there that I wasn't aware of um you know, just 45 minutes ago.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: So it is a balance you strike.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: And I just think it's important to remember that it's a balance you strike that does have negative bits, but it is up to you, you, you, as the business owner, to create for yourself what you want that business to be for yourself and your family and for the broader community and the environment and all that sort of thing.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: All that sort of thing as well.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, you touched on values as well, and that is something charity and the is it the values in action initiative?
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: So that seems to be in an embedded part of your business as well.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: Can you tell me a little bit more about Yeah, yeah.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: So from about 10 or 12 weeks after I was paying myself a salary, and um just between you and I, Ben, I'm not underpaid.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not I'm not one of those business owners who you know sacrifices themselves.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Um so about three or four months or like 10 or 12 weeks after paying myself a, you know, a salary that I'd consider to be, you know, at or at or near a market salary, we've been making extremely regular donations that began as$1,000 a month, and we've just slightly increased them, and we're poised to slightly increase them again every single month to charities and occasionally not-for-profit organizations that are consistent with kind of four values we hold.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: One is dismantling the patriarchy, one is overthrowing white supremacy, uh, one is kind of being supportive to the environment, and one I used to say overthrowing capitalism, which is an awkward thing for a corporate lawyer to say.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And now I say, you know, querying wealth inequality, right?
31:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of about um trying to do our bit for people at the intersections of power that are sometimes disenfranchised or marginalized by the way contemporary society and contemporary economy works, and sort of saying, hey, look, we we as lawyers in this firm take a benefit from working here.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: It's very flexible, it's good for my family.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: As I mentioned before, I'm I'm not underpaid.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: So there are various benefits we can take.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: And there's also a question of, okay, well, we'll take those for ourselves and for our families, but what role do we have in broader society and broader community?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, like, is this merely just a money funneling exercise?
31:59
SPEAKER_01: And frankly, if it was, I wouldn't be particularly interested.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I need for for myself, and I'd like to think the team more broadly needs an answer beyond what are the numbers in the bank account at the end of each payment period.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, we need an understanding of the relevance of like why are we doing this anyway?
32:19
SPEAKER_01: What impact is this thing having on the world around us?
32:21
SPEAKER_01: And if we can start with non-negative and then maybe take the tiniest step into constructive, then I think it's something we can be somewhat proud of.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what the Values and Actions Initiative is about.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: No, that's that's amazing.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh actually something on that I just wanted to just narrow in uh a bit more.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: Um the work that you do dealing with large corporations um quite regularly, maybe not large, there's probably a definition there.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm showing the way.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I'm not large.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm sorry.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll get the little disclaimer up there.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Um but just dealing with, I guess.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Now when you say dealing with, but sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm being silly.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Um dealing with capitalism in a way.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: I'll just I'll just bull down.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: Um I guess to use an example from my own immediate circle here.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: Now, my brother a while ago, he went to work in Silicon Valley for Uber at a time when Uber was at the peak of its kind of evil corporation arc, right?
33:18
SPEAKER_02: And we talked about it a bit about like, do we really want to support this company indirectly by doing work that helps them?
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Or are we okay to work with them to get a high wage that we could then use to help, you know, our community?
33:33
SPEAKER_02: And I'm interested, you know, say as much as you want about this.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: How much is the work you do uh you choose because it's a you know a net gain for your community and values, or do you see it as an opportunity to take something that isn't in the community, you can kind of funnel some of that benefit, I guess, to another part that you would like to see in it?
33:53
SPEAKER_01: This is the exact question.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, you've hit the nail on the head because uh there's an element where the question is, all right, if we're acting for the family trust of some rich people, like in relation to the management of like how much these rich people get in relation to that those those rich people over there, there's a degree where it's easy to understand that it's sort of a zero-sum game in some ways of like the existing wealth of reasonably wealth people, reasonably wealthy people will be kind of somewhat increased or somewhat decreased based on what we're going to do here at Gravim.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's often the calculus of what we're dealing with.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a version of the world where you go, well, um, what's my contribution to society and what's ours?
34:34
SPEAKER_01: And the answer I've got is that we do almost zero diligence at the client induction phase.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: So if you come to me with a type of problem that Gravaman can solve, and if you otherwise comply with the standards we have for dealing with people and paying on time and giving instructions, and we're happy to work with you, I'm not going to sit down and say, now where's your, you know, whatever is six-star neighbors, or like where's your B Corp certification, or um, tell me more about the, you know, various overseas uh factories you might own and how they comply with whatever.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: So when I use the word shame, that's not quite it, but there's a degree of uh self-awareness I try to employ when I say we're lawyers, um, and I'm not suggesting I have the expertise to do a full DD on people's ability to comply with you know DEI style policies that I might find attractive.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: My job's to advise on corporate disputes, shareholders' disputes, directors' disputes, and that's pretty much what I'm gonna do for you, whomever you might be, um, for so long as you for so long as I'm complying with my anti-money laundering stuff and anti-terrorism stuff and all that kind of thing.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: Um we pretty much act.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: And so what you're pointing to, the sophistication of who do we take money from and how do we make peace with that?
36:05
SPEAKER_01: The only answer I have is that limited sort of values in action one that I mentioned earlier of like there'll be times when clients might be doing things that they they may disclose to me and they may not.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, that might not be consistent with my values or Gravimans.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: Um and so how do we make peace with that?
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, firstly, I'm not a DEI a DEI DD uh person who's gonna do the diligence on every single person's compliance with with whatever policies.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's more to say we expect there will may be some gaps and we'll do the tiniest, tiniest part with our values and actions program, values and action program of trying to address those.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully that tiny, tiny bit increases ever so slightly with you know community contributions and funding of clubs and cultural things as well.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, you can't really force other people to act the way you want them to, but if you can lead by example in a way, and it's good to I know I I condensed it in a very There's an element where that's a get out of jail free card for you, me and your brother, right?
37:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'll and I and I'll take it, but yeah, I'm with you.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: No, no, but no, you are right.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: It is, it is unfortunately a gray area where you you do have to acknowledge that you have contributed in a negative way as well, and that is self-awareness is the first step of many steps.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: It's not we're good.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: We're solved.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: We acknowledged it was a problem.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: Death and Lanana.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a lot more to do.
37:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, no, thank you for answering that.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: I knew it was a bit of a tricky one, but I was interested in your thoughts.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: It's the right one to ask because I think my answer is to an extent unsatisfactory, even to me, sort of, you know, listening to myself answer it.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's something we all grapple with, right?
37:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Um except for you, you know, deeply closed-minded people deeply lacking in self-awareness, going, well, I'm pretty sure everyone's fine, right?
37:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's sort of the definition of privilege, right?
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Of like, oh, I'm just not, I don't have to think about it.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to think about it.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Trying to at least pick apart that very first, you know, layer, that very first bit of onion skin to be like, let's understand the context in which we move, firstly, and then start thinking about how we can improve it while we're here contributing.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: I think this podcast, especially for me as a host, is pretty much just me confronting my own ignorance every week.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: It's it's tough, but it's, you know, it has to be done.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: That's a lifetime's journey as well, right?
38:26
SPEAKER_01: Of like, you know, we're learning, we're like, we're learning something every day.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: And there's a degree where we're having our minds opened up as we go.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: And and Ben, like we're here in one of the more iconic recently constructed buildings in Sydney CBD, and we're here on stolen land.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: And there's an element where um neither you or I acknowledge that at the start of the chat, and I haven't heard the final edit of the podcast, and it may or may not be acknowledged, but there's an element where every piece of business we do um is done on stolen land.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: And uh every benefit we enjoy is somewhere downstream from an act of colonialism, settler colonialism, right?
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And so there are these questions where um it's not nice to start picking at the privileges we have.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm when I say attracted to it, it's not fun.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: But it's the work that we all try to do to be as constructive as we can to making a world that is fairer for everyone.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, you did challenge me at the beginning of this podcast.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: To do a wrap.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: Let's do a wrap.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: A one.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: A two.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: Hey, if you wanted to.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: No, I was never gonna spring that on you.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: But that that I'm I said I might run out of things to say, but I think we could spend another few hours here.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: But I know Let's start the clock.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I I guess before we we wrap or anything like that, I did want to ask you genuinely, what what what is next for you?
39:50
SPEAKER_02: What is next for Gravman?
39:52
SPEAKER_02: What's next for James?
39:55
SPEAKER_01: We sponsor some podcasts.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we sponsor and we sponsor some sports teams and we make some charitable donations.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: And I'd love for each of those kind of community and charitable contributions to be kind of ratcheted up.
40:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, our team is bigger than it's ever been.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: There's four of us at Gravman.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: And what I'd really like is to stop that growth at about four or five or maybe six.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, and I I keep trying to stamp down because people at my phase of building a firm, there is a degree of giddiness that it's like, oh, well, there was just me.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: And then there was uh there's one other person, and oh, then there's a couple more other people, and and you can start getting caught up in being like, oh, well, more people are better, and you, you know, number go up, right?
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, of like, like, let's watch the hockey stick go.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: And there can be a giddy, seductive, slightly otherworldly element to that of like, this was just an idea I had, and it's helping pay all these mortgages and making these donations to charity and appearing on podcasts with Ben and having a great time.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: And so a big thing I want to achieve is really keeping nice and calm and steady, and really betting down cultural stuff, betting down excellence, going from a pretty good law firm to an excellent one, starting to be also continuing on the journey of thinking about our contribution to the globe and the environment and community.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: And so I hope the future looks very similar to the present with some tweaks.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then personally, I want to be around with my family as much as I can.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: At the moment, I'm doing reasonably okay, although I'm not coaching any of their sports teams at the moment.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: That's mainly because a huge surprise, given the genetics comes in part from me.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are pretty good at sport, and that's that's been a very pleasant surprise as a spectator.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: But it means that my coaching ability they've now outstripped my ability to say, come on, like good like good luck, get like yeah, yelling on the sideline, get in there, uh has become a less uh a less effective coaching technique over time.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: But trying to be a part of the lives of those in my family and those in my community while the business in parallel looks similar and increasingly refined over time.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: So that means you'll still be working on podcasts, you'll still be pursuing those passion projects.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Is that an invite to season two, then?
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
42:24
SPEAKER_02: Uh and if people want to see more of you, hear more of you, James, where can they find you?
42:29
SPEAKER_01: Part of my strategy for online stuff is I'll be wherever you want me.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: So uh if you Google Graverman or Google James Dapperci or Google Coffee in a case note or Google Spooko or Google the Nightmare Method, which is the Gordon Ramsey Kitchen Nightmares one, I'll show up somewhere.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: I'll be on YouTube, I'll be on Facebook, I'll be on Instagram, I'll be on X, I'll be on LinkedIn, I'll be on podcasts, I'll be wherever you need me.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: So I'll find you wherever you'd like to find me.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh feel free to Google me.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: Feel free not to as well.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a low pressure element where I don't want to appear in front of anyone who doesn't want me there.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: So you're welcome to come find us.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: And you're welcome to just come follow Ben.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: Ben, where can we find you?
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Why don't uh why don't you drop a plug over here?
43:08
SPEAKER_02: Well, you can find us on the Unbuild and Unfiltered Podcast, which will be in every uh streaming platform, hopefully.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh, whichever one you use, we're there as well.
43:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, we're there right now.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: You're you're listening to this on that platform right now.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: The same way you did it now.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: Do it again later.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of how to find us.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: All right, now start that wrap, you promise, Ben.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And a one.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: And a two.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of all we have time for today.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you heard from James, he'll find you.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh just look out for him and you'll find uh James Dapper here around.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: So thanks once again for coming, James.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: This has been great.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: We could speak for hours.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: You were right.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: I was I vastly underestimated what we'd talk about.
43:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, but again, really appreciate you taking the time to be here.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: An absolute pleasure, Ben.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Thanks to you for listening.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me in your in your headphones.