Latest / The Resting Stitch Face Podcast / Navigating Crossroads with Bravery and Alignment w/ Dr. Diane Dye
Transcript
- Erin Sheffield: Welcome back to another episode of the Resting Stitch Face podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Aaron Sheffield with Dr. Sarah Harding: Doctor Sarah Harding. Erin Sheffield: Welcome back. Dr. Sarah Harding: Welcome back, everybody. We are being joined today by Dr. Diane Dye. She's not a medical doctor. She is an experimentation strategist, executive advisor, and the CEO of People Risk Consulting. For more than 20 years, she has helped founders, CEOs, and executives navigate complex decisions, organizational change, and growth. She holds a doctorate in organizational change and leadership from the University of Southern California and is the creator of the critical opportunity method and braver innovation method. Dr. Dye is also the host of Brave Business, where she explores how leaders challenge conventional thinking, make better decisions, and experiment their way to better outcomes. Welcome. Erin Sheffield: Welcome. Dr. Diane Dye: Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Sarah Harding: Yes. Dr. Diane Dye: Doctor Sarah and Doctor Aaron. Dr. Sarah Harding: We're excited for you to be here. Erin Sheffield: We are so glad to have you be here. Thank you. Dr. Diane Dye: I feel I feel like that sketch, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. Erin Sheffield: That's right, don't you forget it. So Dr. Sarah Harding: That's right. Erin Sheffield: your bio is full of so many powerful words. The ones that kept sticking out to me were brave. So I don't usually think about that when I'm thinking about organizational behavior, leadership, business, CEO. What what does that mean to you? Tell us more about what you do and why you're inserting bravery into all of it. Dr. Diane Dye: Well, I'm Dr. Di and Dye. I'm an experimentation strategist that helps founders and CEOs make great decisions when they're at a crossroads and they don't know which way to turn. And sometimes when you're at a crossroads and don't know which way to turn, it can kind of feel like a life and death situation, even if it's not. So that's the definition Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-mm. Dr. Diane Dye: of being brave is to be faced with something that could cost life, limp, or in my case, business, and making a choice to move forward Erin Sheffield: And expressed. Dr. Diane Dye: anyway. Dr. Sarah Harding: Cool. Very cool. And how did you get into this? Dr. Diane Dye: Through a very interesting turn of crossroads and events, Sarah. It has been such a journey. So it actually all started off when I was laid off four months into my master's program at USC. Erin Sheffield: wow. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah, accepted into my dream school. And I was part of, I had an equity position at a tech company. Things were things were rocking along and live equity position. Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Dr. Diane Dye: accepted in my dream school, like could not get better. And then four months into my master's program at USC, smack. Hey, guess what? You automated yourself out of a job. Congratulations, Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: you're so good. We're gonna go ahead and double down the sales team. And since you're not a salesperson, Dr. Sarah Harding: Wow. Dr. Diane Dye: bye-bye. Erin Sheffield: no. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah, so life turned upside down. And fortunately, USC being the powerhouse it is with relationships. I I went to my cohort, I went to my professor, and I'm like, what do I do? And they said, Well, what do you want to do? And I had Erin Sheffield: Thank you. Dr. Diane Dye: been helping businesses since 2009 when I got light-off from a major video game company. So layoffs. No stranger to layoffs. 85% of the corporations I work with have been bought up by someone else. I realized maybe that was just a signal that I should help other CEOs get bought. So I yeah. Dr. Sarah Harding: Wow, yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: So off we go. And I said, Well, then what do you want to do? And I said, Well, I'd really like to. Consult. And they said, well, then what's holding you back from doing it? And I realized that student loans are for a few different things. One, they are for your education and paying for your education. Two, they're for paying for your housing while you're in education. And three, food. Erin Sheffield: Well you are going to Dr. Diane Dye: So I was going to be housed, I was going to be fed, I was going to get to stay in my dream school. I called up the Secretary of State and said, All right, what do I have to do to register my business? Because unemployment Erin Sheffield: Wow. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: had told me you're gonna have to quit school. You have to be Dr. Sarah Harding: wow. Dr. Diane Dye: able to accept any and all full time work. And since you just started school, you're just you're just gonna have to done and dusted with that. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it's going to be. So it was a brave move on my part, but it was the catalyst that happened actually. This is our 10th anniversary, 10th anniversary year of being in business by myself for myself, helping other companies, other CEOs through that similar crossroads when either the world tells them no, other people tell them no, or they themselves are really tempted to tell themselves no. Dr. Sarah Harding: Wow. Don't you find that those things happen when you just relax and you think, wow, this is right. This is great. I'm finally at a space that I can relax. And then boom. You know, it's like the world is like, No, you can't. No, you can't. Yeah, don't. Yeah. That's right. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: No, you're not. Nope. It's next level time, baby. What are you talking about? You're you're coasting right along. Guess what? Wrong path. And away you go down the crossroads. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And something that we talk about a lot is, especially in our field, is that the bill of goods essentially that we were sold and how our career progression and projection will look was very different than what it actually looks like. And the reason for that is because the people that came before us did it very differently and the landscape looked very different. And so what they were selling us is what they had experienced. And so then in turn now, me, Sarah, and Aaron, you know, are moms and also oral surgeons and also love work-life balance. We love to do other things besides our jobs, which is unlike those who brought us into this field. And so Erin Sheffield: I don't know. Dr. Sarah Harding: we've really been having to navigate that, you know. And so I think that what you're doing, this crossroads that you're talking about, is so valid and so interesting because. We try to follow this path that was prescribed to us and it doesn't work. Dr. Diane Dye: And people are always giving you advice based on their own experience. That's why when people tell you no Dr. Sarah Harding: Of course. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: or you can't or you should do it this way. This Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: is why we have to train ourselves to take those things with a grain of salt when we're at that crossroads, because those are the first voices that pop up. And it generally Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: pops up as a voice inside our own heads telling ourselves no. Dr. Sarah Harding: Hm. Absolutely. Yes. Erin Sheffield: I'm my brain is spinning so much just thinking about all this, like feeling I'm having all these deep thoughts. and Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I keep thinking, and I'm curious your perspective, Diane, because I feel like kind of what Sarah's saying, we get kind of stuck in a rut, and it's always been done this way. And so I think we tend to put up with a lot of things that we normally wouldn't just because we Maybe it's decision paralysis or just not even knowing what the options are, not knowing how to change or get out, or that feels so risky that you will just like almost accept a life of misery. Is that the same Dr. Diane Dye: Right. Erin Sheffield: way in the business world? Is that kind of what you're working on? Dr. Diane Dye: It is. It is. It is. And it's the situation that my father ran into when he was offered the opportunity to have his his hotel bought out by a chain. Is his business as usual sunk in? His business as usual sunk in and said, no, no, no. Corporate America wants to come in and take over the small guy. I know this story. I know this story Dr. Sarah Harding: huh. Dr. Diane Dye: about. hotels being bought out and the owners being pushed out and his buddies are like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, Wayne. They're the big corporations are coming for us all and you have to stand your ground. And and all of that validation that was coming from that echo chamber that he was in stopped him from moving forward and being acquired by a major chain. And what was sad about that is that those resources that that corporate entity would have Brought would have allowed him to stay current, would have allowed him to think differently. And because he said that no, he was unable to keep up and had to end up selling the business years later, closing and ruining the family legacy. So that's what happens when we're at that crossroads and we're in that echo chamber, and we have the people who are like, business is usual. No, no, business is usual. I don't know what you're thinking. Going off this this crazy direction with, you know, you're gonna give me these resources or you're gonna help me or or you're gonna try something new. It's it's that thing, that very thing that can actually perpetuate the downfall. And that's the that's the part that really requires the work because the no no no, let's just keep it the same, let's self-protect. That's a natural place to go, especially as you build something worth protecting. Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. Right. And can we unpack that a little bit? This is a really interesting thing that's also happening in dentistry and medicine, right? Because small practices, mom and pop shops, you know, you go, you finish school, you hang up your shingle. And these practices are the goal now is well, let's build, build, build, and then we can sell to these corporate, you know, entities. And that's been the practice for the last probably ten years or so. And that model was really probably good for the first the first buyers, you know, the first takers on it. And as it's grown, it seems to be less and less Good. You know, it's just not as it's not as beneficial for those who are now going into that model. And so, but when you're talking about an echo chamber, because as soon as you started talking about that, I was like, ooh. And I put up my little fenders, you know, like, no, don't do that. And I understand where your dad was coming from, you know, because on the flip side, now we see these corporate practices that are these these owners that have built up this wonderful practice, these corporate entities come in. And take over. And they're certainly able to streamline some things, right? And they're able to do, you know, bulk buying. And so, you know, that brings down the cost on certain things. But what they're ending up doing is really making it miserable for the former owner and people that worked there because their whole goal is to build profitability and productivity so that they can sell it to the next entity. And so in doing so, it's removing a lot of the relationship. Aspect, which is so crucial to our field, maybe not in the hotel industry, it is to a minor degree, but certainly not like where we are. And I think that's really what suffered. And so I think what an interesting comparison between the two, because it's it's a very similar start point, but we all kind of feel the same way. Like, let's preserve this thing that I've built, because that's really where the legacy will lie. Because when the corporate entity comes in, yes, it may still have my shingle out front, but I don't really own it. You know? Dr. Diane Dye: Right. So the question is also different. So what my dad thought the question was was get acquired or not. When what the question actually was, is how do I keep current and Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: keep up with the laws? How do I keep up with what consumers want? How do I stay relevant? How do I continue to innovate? And he didn't have the answer to that question, but more Dr. Sarah Harding: Okay. Dr. Diane Dye: than that, he didn't know that was the question. He thought the Dr. Sarah Harding: Okay. Dr. Diane Dye: question was get acquired or not. And sometimes Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: when then I'll bring this back to small practice owners, are tempted to get acquired, it's because there's something within the practice that might be in pain. I think that the medical industry is so wonderful. And I work with medical providers a lot. And the medical industry is actually part of the research and inspiration for the Braver Innovation method because you know how to diagnose. Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: You know how to look at a symptom and boil that down to its base issue to where you can do something like surgery to correct the actual thing. And that's what Braver is all about. The B and Braver stands for bias and belief because it all starts in with the complaint. It's all starts in with what is that thing that is hurting? And what are my biases and beliefs around that thing that are going to either open me up to treatment options or shut me down to them? And that's the R research. And then You have the ability as clinicians, as surgeons, to understand that problem, to diagnose that problem, to map actions that are going to resolve that problem. And because it's been validated by your industry, what to do, your validation is checked, but you also have to go back to that patient and validate: do you consent to this practice? And you validate that. And the experiment might be like, no, I don't consent to this whole thing, but I consent to this little thing. Let's start here. And that's the experiment. That's the first move. And you know the results that you're looking for. You know the results you're looking for is the relief or somewhat relief of that pain. Now, this can be applied across medical industry, but Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. Dr. Diane Dye: Medical professionals are expert innovators because they have to do it every single day with their patients. And Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: so Braver maps that process straight across the board and keeps also breathing, living and breathing, checking on bias and belief as we go, because resistance can pop up any time during innovation and change. And sadly, it's resistance that stops people like my dad from asking the real question or seeking the resources so that they can get help, so they can figure out what that real question is, what that critical opportunity is. So that they can come into either awareness, consciousness, and humility about it, or if they choose to stick in denial, disavowal, and ego, okay, but at least they know that's where they sit. Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. Right. Wow. Erin Sheffield: So what kind of decisions? I guess I'm curious, what kind of pitfalls are you seeing commonly? is it ego-based decisions? Is it I don't even know how to ask the question. You know what I'm asking. Dr. Diane Dye: Absolutely. Well, ego's at the core of all of it. Denial, disavow, and ego. What are the things that we are denying are happening? What are the things that we know were happening, but I'm just not going to have anything to do with that, or that's this part of the practices problem. Or ego, I'm either too good for this or I'm not good enough for this, whatever the this is. And that's the the core of Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: the decision right there. And where People can get stuck. But when they are willing to, I say, anytime I work with someone, I say, are you willing to unlearn what you think you know? And if the answer to that is, I'm curious, what does that mean? Or absolutely, I I know I don't know things, let's, let's, let's do this thing, let's walk this path. Then we can come into awareness and consciousness. And the difference between awareness is consciousness is I know it exists. That's awareness. Okay, that's your first step. Consciousness is to look at the layers of its existence. What are the people, the systems, the processes, the environments, the cultures that are affected by what's happening? And are you willing to question into those, to get curious about those, to have accountability for those? So you can actually begin. the process of diagnosis of what's going on so you can map a a path forward. So to to answer your question, where it all all starts with self, but it's like concentric circles, where it starts with the self and then you map the stakeholders and see who's who's in touch with that. But there's also the other things that you don't control, like l environmental, social, governance, you don't control those things. So how do those things impact it? And and that makes decision making Wickedly complex. That's why it's important to find the one thing, the one research question that you are going after and utilize Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: a way to remove the self from it to become the observer. I like to say, put on a different hat. Are you a researcher? Are you a scientist? Are you a curious kid? Are you a reporter? You know, what do you want to be to get yourself away from that? So you can look at that one thing in just a little bit of a different way other than the pressure cooker that is the actual decision. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I'm curious your thoughts. I saw something online, a discussion the other day, and I thought it was very interesting. It was addressed saying, What would you think if your associate dentist they they're off the clock at five and they walk out of the the clinic at five one? Is that okay? And it was very interesting. The different answers Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: that people are giving because some people are like, Absolutely not. The associate dentist deserves to Dr. Diane Dye: Let's map it to Braver. Erin Sheffield: yeah, they deserve they need to be there and show they're taking the extra steps and they should be talking to the boss dentist and is there anything more you can need from me? And you know, trying to really show that you're showing up for the clinic. And then I'm of the mindset more I've been that person who's gone the extra mile and I Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: thought I was loyal and I thought I jumped through all the hoops and I thought I'm indispensable. They love me here. The staff love me. The patients love me. I'm doing a good job. I'm profitable. All the things. And then I've been the one that's been shoved out on my booty, blindsided, when it doesn't work for them. And so how do you how do you balance that? What advice do you have? Do you think it's Good to like really be the extra mile employee, or do we need to protect ourselves more? What's a what advice do you have? Dr. Diane Dye: So I'm smiling really big right now because I have someone who is going through this exact situation. She she lived away from the office. The office did a call back to work type situation. She moved closer to the office, but she's also neurodivergent. So the situation is different because she requires accommodation. So she's she's spinning. On this, and I'm talking to her, and I'm like, okay, well, what are your beliefs about this situation? It's like, well, I joined because it was a hybrid work environment. It was announced as a hybrid working environment. That worked for me. I worked really well on that. Okay, great. Do you know what your boss's beliefs are? Well, no, I don't. Okay, let's start there. So the question it was, so here's where I came from. Here's what I imagine you believe. Is that true? And from that place you can actually uproot what the real situation is. So my advice is number one, check your own beliefs. So you can then question those imaginations and act from a place of reality versus imagination. We spend so much time Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: reacting from our mental models. Peterson Gay called it the reflexive, the reflexive loop, the ladder of inference that happens up here. And like we record everything just like a video camera, and we take that in, and based on our experience, we attach a belief to it. And that belief then can inform a thought. And that thought can either inform an action or a question. The least disruptive one of these is a question, because when you have a thought, have a belief, take an action, you have a complete missing data point there of what is what is the actual belief. So now in your example, you knew what the belief was. You knew what the belief was. They Voice the belief, no, we expect you to be in the office. You're not a team player. This was voiced to you. Then you get to go back and within yourself and question: all right, is this the environment that's right for me? Is this going to be aligned with how I am and who I am and how I'm going to show up best? Or am I not doing my best service to this particular office or organization because It's out of alignment. And I think it's a brave move to say, this is not for me. And to move on. Because what's going to happen is you're going to square peg round hole it. You're going to try to comply. You're going to try to work your way into this way. Now, up on the on the front end, you could express your needs and they could say, Okay, great. Well, now we now we see. But if they're not cooperating, Now it bounces back to you and your authenticity to go, all right, they gripe at me at 5.01 because I'm done with my with everything that I have to do that day. And at 5.01 they're upset. I actually experienced this myself. I, in fact, I based my dissertation off of it. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I can't write them. Dr. Diane Dye: My dissertation was called Disclosure of Abuse to Empowerment. And I was living, my husband, he had a very strict rule of me, and that was I was supposed to be home every day by 5 30, no matter what. And I lived in Southern California, so you know all know how the other variables are involved in that decision. Right. So I was living in Florence, Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah, sure do. Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: working in El Segundo. And I was trying my darndest to get out, you know, five five, five ten maybe, but Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: that because at home, if I didn't make it on time, there was hell to pay. I also didn't feel safe telling my reasons to my direct supervisor. Prior behavior just did not demonstrate that she was the one that was going to give me a big hug as I cried into her shoulder Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: to say that this was something I needed to do. So I just split. I just split with no with no explanation. I just split, I split, I split, and me, me, me, me, me, me, everyone started talking, right? Diane's always gone. Diane's always leaving. Me, me, me, me, me. So it was Memorial Day weekend. And I'm like, that's it. I'm out. And Keep in mind for me, I was this was not just, you know, I'm out. This is I'm working as hard as I can while I'm there. They're off, you know, playing video games or paddleball or whatever we we do during the cool companies to blow off steam in the middle of the day. I'm sitting at my desk, I'm eating lunch at my desk, I'm doing everything Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: I can. And it's Memorial Day weekend. They're like leaving already. And I told them to get a life. And I peace out, I'm out the door. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: You can imagine when we came back from Memorial Day, HR was standing behind my chair. I did not feel safe to disclose my situation to my direct supervisor. Therefore, I was not able to get the accommodations that I needed. And I hid all of the things that I was going through that was causing me to have vertigo be dehydrated, be sleep deprived. Come in after maybe hours and hours, hours of being completely dressed down by my by my spouse. So this is not an uncommon story. A lot of women who are experiencing, and men too, are experiencing psychological aggression or domestic violence at home do not feel comfortable disclosing that to their supervisors. So I found out through my dissertation that there are ways to be. And it does start with non-judgment. But the question is the key. The self-ownership is the key. And also after observing, after asking those questions, after doing the study, making the choice to say, not for me. And the outcome can be so much greater when you do have a leader. Who is not Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: judgmental, who listens, who who makes time to speak when it's safe, who is creative and innovative in the accommodations that they can give. And that's the that's the panacea, and that's what we all want. But the fact of the matter is sometimes we are the ones who have to stand up for ourselves because there is no one in the Cape coming to to save us. So Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: It was an interesting finding, for sure. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. So can I ask a question? Did Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. Dr. Sarah Harding: you did you remove yourself from the home situation also? Thank you. Okay. I've been like sweating, like worried about you ever since she said that. Okay. Dr. Diane Dye: Yes, yes, I did. And interestingly enough, yeah. No, interestingly enough, it was actually a leader who met the criteria of the leaders that I did discover. I didn't think I had that leader. When I was doing my dissertation, I didn't think I had that leader. I didn't think that leader existed. I truly thought Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. Dr. Diane Dye: I would go out, try to find my people, and everyone would say, Yeah, no, every boss sucks. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: And what I found out is there are leaders like And I did experience Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: that them and I was able to get away because of those leaders. Dr. Sarah Harding: Amazing. Good. Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: Thanks. Dr. Sarah Harding: Proud of you. That's that's a lot. Right. And then I think that we get so bogged down. And Aaron, correct me if I'm wrong, in our field, we don't look like the typical oral surgeons, right? And so like we have, you know, our staff, our leadership, our bosses also usually don't look like us. And and so it's a very different work environment than probably we would foster if we were in charge. And and I think that, you know, Aaron's created this retreat that's for women in medicine, dentists, oral surgeons, because it's like you said, you don't know that that exists until you meet it. And you don't meet it if you stay in your little tiny tunnel vision echo chamber. Where all you see is people that look different than you and that treat people differently than you and that aren't what we need. And so I think that you're right, it's about exposure, you know? Dr. Diane Dye: It is. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: It's a call for innovation. It's a call for innovation Dr. Sarah Harding: Yes. Dr. Diane Dye: and a call for change. Anytime you know, you know, as when you talk to patients who are in deep pain and they've been avoiding surgery, the surgery is necessary to create the change. And sometimes it sucks. And on the other end of Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Usually, yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: the suck is the relief. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, that's a great Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: analogy. So picture with me a woman surgeon, woman doctor, woman dentist, whoever it is, who has been plugging along in a practice. They've been in it for a while. Like maybe five years, maybe ten years, long enough that they've kind of invested in And it just feels like this is how life needs to be. What advice do you have for someone living that life where they feel just kind of stuck? Maybe they're at a crossroads of not feeling like there's even a crossroads ahead. Dr. Diane Dye: Right. It's about building the dream first. And however hard it might be to imagine a future self with the current self in place, having that context of what if you did know? Pull pull down into your heart. And what if you did know what you what you wanted to do next? Nothing's too crazy. What would that be? And let's let's map that out. Let's see, let's see what that what that would feel like to you, what that would taste like to you, what that would smell like to you, what sounds do you hear? You know, bring it into a present type reality that feels just real enough to say, okay. Now you can choose to change something about yourself or to change the situation. You pick which one feels good to you. Which one feels best to you. And from that, let's just choose one small step to get you there. And maybe, maybe it's so bad that what it is is I need I need to go breathe and take a shower. Like great. That is a wonderful. I need sleep. And that's a wonderful first small step for yourself to get yourself there. I think that one mistake so many people make is they forget all about the classic work of Maslow and his wonderful pyramid. And that in that format, it's all about first putting on your own oxygen mask and getting your food, your safety, and your shelter. in place and your basic state of mind from knowing that you are taken care of. You can't self-actualize from a place of rubble. So maybe that one small step is exactly that. It's let's secure my financial state. Let's make sure I know that if I say this thing to him, that I'm gonna have a place to live. When I separated from my former husband. I decided that if we were going to get counseling, the first step was he needed to get all the guns out of the house. Because he Erin Sheffield: Boy. Dr. Diane Dye: had so many guns that it filled up the trunk of our BMW Z three. filled the trunk. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: He would leave his guns out and clean them and mess with them while we were having an argument. So number one, what do I need to move forward? I need the guns out of the house. I don't need to solve the marriage. No, no, no. I just need the guns out of the house. I need to baseline my safety. So he loaded he I said, I will get counseling with you. I will go to a counselor. You can pick the counselor. I just need you to get take take the guns to your mom's. Drive the guns to your mom's. Get the guns out of the house. There was someone you trust. We brought mom in on mom's like, okay, all right, you know. And then she had a private conversation with him on the road. And he called me halfway down to Southern California and he said, You know, my mom doesn't think that I should come because you'll lock me out. And until that moment, I wasn't even considering it. Erin Sheffield: Mm. Good idea, Mom. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. So this is an example of when you get that first step, that second step actually just appears. In in the doctoral process, we call it iteration, right? That next step appears and you walk it. So I said, wow, I wasn't even considering that. So I didn't respond. I'm like, what are you talking about? Just get the get the guns there. We'll get I'll I'll talk to you. I'll talk to you tonight. I'll call me when you get there. And I hung up the phone and I called the the boss that I had at the time and I said, Could I do it? What would it take for me to do it? The research. And she said, okay, well, I can come over. Andy, her husband, knew what was going on. I can come over, talk to the apartment complex, see what you could do. I'll come over and stay with you and be there with you. And and and yes, you could. You have your dog. He had threatened my dog in the past and to take my dog's life, hurt my dog. I had my dog and I had shelter. I had my own money because I've been scrolling some away. I had my own car because I bought one. I'm like, okay, I have support. So I waited till he arrived and I said, you know what? Your mom had a great idea. Why don't Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: you just take a cooler? I didn't tell him he was locked out. I said, why don't we just take a break? I actually need some time to think. about what we're gonna talk about in counseling. And I need you to stay away for that to happen. And he stayed away. And I haven't seen him since. Erin Sheffield: Wow. Dr. Diane Dye: So it it took that process. So I've been studying this process all of my life, not just the 10 years of research that I put into Braver, but my actual own lived experience. Saying, well, what do I believe? Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: What does he believe? What do my friends believe? What do I need to know? What can I do? Is what can I do actually true? What's my experiment? What the results that I'm looking for, even just incremental? And for that person who may be listening, who is in a situation at a crossroads of of any type, sometimes the end goal isn't the first step, but sometimes we can be out in the social media scroll, it can make it seem like, no, that's just just go for the dream. Just go for the big dream. Do it now. Do it now. Move. Go toward that big dream. But maybe that big dream. Is not what you need to be going for. You need to be going for a nap, a shower, a conversation with a friend, a discussion with that boss, a discussion with a co-worker, a meditation, you know, whatever that step is. And as you move closer and closer incrementally to that dream, that dream can shift, that dream can change, or that dream can stay exactly the same, and you can be surprised how you got there. But when we freak ourselves out so much about the destination, Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: what we're gonna do when we get there, we forget to pay attention to the GPS that's barking instructions in our ear along the way. And that's why awareness, consciousness, and humility is so important. And that's all in my workbook, Creating Critical Opportunity that I published in twenty twenty to help save businesses during the pandemic. Erin Sheffield: Wow. As you're talking, it reminds me of some marriage advice I've heard, which was a lot of people say divorce is not option in our marriage. And I've heard other like marriage counselors or therapists say it should always be an option. And that sounds backwards. You know, it feels like we're really committed. the point of it is you have a choice and when you make a choice you can really follow through more. And I think we do that so much when we're in like a dead end job or in a spot that feels like we're kind of stuck. We just feel helpless and powerless. But if we can think about it, is this job worth staying in or would it be better to leave? And I think when you can kind of Look at it and weigh the pros and cons and think about it thoughtfully. We we may decide, no, like you did, this is this is not working for me. I am not happy. And as I realize it, it would be better to get out, even though it's uncomfortable. Or you might think, you know, there are some challenges and some of this is hard, It'll be worth staying. And I think. Some of that's just being intentional and, you know, coming up with our goals and what we want and living a life of alignment. Does that seem correct to you? Dr. Diane Dye: Absolutely. Alignment is everything. I think about alignment like Dr. Sarah Harding: Okay. Dr. Diane Dye: holding up a circus tent. So imagine who you are in your in your true unmasked self when you're not performing to fit anyone else's standards as that middle pole to that tent. And what you do, they're like the guidelines that come down from that center pole of the big top tent. And who you actually be in the world is the tent and the show is what goes on within it. Now you control your show, but it's awfully hard to have a show that you actually want to put on if your pole's bent or if there is no middle pole and the and what you do is just on the ground. And you can't there's no show. Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: There is no show for that. But that's what we do sometimes every day while we're Busy accommodating this and that and the other, that's so out of alignment. I've I've been in business for 10 years, but I have expanded my firm and contracted my firm tiny, and now it's just me as an executive advisor growing an ed tech company around my methods. And I'm doing that because what was under my tent and what was aligned with. my tent pole back then is not what is today. And sometimes to the marriage example, as as individuals evolve, they either make a commitment to actively inquire and evolve with each other because everything changes. Every seven years, I think it's our skin, our hair, like everything changes. Who's to say, you know, who's who's to actually say that our inward selves don't also change like that every seven years. So it's like being married to a different person. And I believe, yes, the commitment is to each other, but the commitment is also to stay conscious, to stay aware, to stay present, to stay open with the versions that evolve. And if one can't, or if that version that evolves is actually harmful, as in as in my case. That there is an agreement that personal sovereignty rules. In all situations, there's one thing that we have control over in this world, and it's me, myself, and I. Everything else is variable. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: So if we look at that from that standpoint, and then we say, okay, hi, other variable. Do we commit to working together on this issue? Maybe it's maybe it's a workplace issue. Take it out of marriage, because that's kind of like a mini marriage. You sign a document that commits yourself to employment, right? Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Sure is, yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: And you say, What are your what are your standards? Here are my standards. Is it possible to meet both standards in an innovative way? Or do we need to part? Are you willing to work on it? Am I willing to work on it? Is there some middle, or is this destructive to one or both of us? And there needs to be a departure, a change, a you know, something that turns over the apple cart sometimes, but Often I find, and I've this has happened to me so many times in my life, where the apple cart has gone over and I ended up exactly where I needed to be. Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I I think that is really interesting about your circus tent analogy is that in that way, if you're not aligned Others around you can feel that. Right. And so when you're like, come to my circus, they're like, but the pole's bent. But they don't know why they don't want to come to your circus, but they know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: gonna die if I come to your circus. That tent is coming down and I don't even Dr. Sarah Harding: And so sometimes when you feel like you're straight up right and holding up your tent, but you're not, but you're putting on that you are, others can feel that. And then they respond to that. And then they are unable to. you know, come to your circus or back you up or bring you along with their circus because of that, right? But sometimes we we don't recognize that because we're not conscious of the fact that we've distanced ourselves from our own alignment. Right. And so do you find that that's Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. Yeah. I'm on a mission to unmask. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yes. Do you find that that's a big thing with the folks that you work with, that they have just sort of forgotten what their North Star is, they've kind of drifted a little bit. And so that's why they feel stuck because they're not able to act in a way that is in alignment because they themselves are not in alignment with themselves. Do you find that? Dr. Diane Dye: Yes, absolutely. It it all starts with the dream. From the dream, in alignment with that dream, both personal alignment and do I really want to do this thing, or is this something someone told me I'm supposed to do? From that alignment comes invention, comes the ability and the courage to go out and validate that invention to experiment to a Go for the results that you want to grow, to emerge, and then celebrate when you do. Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Wow. Dr. Diane Dye: All about alignment. It's all about a personal mission that I have to unmask, to take off that mask so the right people can come forward and the wrong Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: people can opt out. But it takes it takes a lot of bravery to do that because it does feel like life or limb. It does feel like if I do this, I will be left alone, I will be abandoned, I will be kicked to the curb. And the bravery to just ask a question and then pause and wait for that answer and take one small step and then pause and then have the next one appear. There's gonna be a lot of noise inside while that is Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: going on, like a lot of noise, and it's and it's why. It is so important to anchor into the dream of self. Who are you? Erin Sheffield: So what what are the most common things you think people are masking? Dr. Diane Dye: The most common things that people are masking that I see are their true thoughts and beliefs about situations involving others. They mask their past because they're ashamed of it and they don't believe that in their pain there is some sort of purpose. They are they're masking just to shine it up because they don't feel like they can go somewhere without having the right hair and makeup. Erin Sheffield: Sure. Dr. Diane Dye: There's there's so much and and everyone is different in what they Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: mask, but it's all masking is about guilt, shame, or fear. Those are the three horsemen of the mask. I I feel guilty if I do this, if I show up in a certain way, that's going to be an inconvenience to you. Therefore, I will not. I am ashamed of who I am or what I believe. So I'm not gonna let that out. Or I am afraid of the external consequence of me being who I am every day. And and I I've I face that now. So I am a gay woman. So I've been bisexual all my life. I'm a gay woman who has a female partner. I am neurodivergent, diagnosed level one autism and ADHD. And inside things scream. Don't say that. You have to look good to everyone. You have to be acceptable to everyone. For goodness sakes, don't don't say this. Don't do that. Don't show up on your social media with a puppet. What are you doing? You're don't show up with no makeup on. Don't do this. Don't do that. And I'm gonna, you know what, listeners, you're gonna get enough. Don't do that. And no from the world. You can learn how to innovate from that. But the no that is the hardest to get past is that no that you scream at yourself before you even take one small step for toward a micro experiment. And maybe it plays, and maybe it doesn't. But the fact Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: of the matter is the world will not explode if you do it. But inside, it feels like the world's going to explode if you do it. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. You know, one of my favorite quotes is from a book, which is one of my favorite books. Have you read the book called Scary Close by Donald Miller? Dr. Diane Dye: I am not. Dr. Sarah Harding: my gosh, please read it. So the quote is, It's true. If we live behind a mask, we can impress, but we can't connect. Erin Sheffield: Mm. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. And he talks a lot about masks and I mean, it's just an incredible book, but like exactly what you're talking about. And I think that's the thing, right? We put on a mask because we we interpret, we infer that this is what people want from me. And so I will wear this mask and I will present myself as this person, whether or not that's who I am or not. But that's what I think that they want. When at the end of the day, I think we can all agree. That people feel much warmer in your presence and much more willing in your presence when they feel that you are being your true and authentic self. Dr. Diane Dye: Yes, absolutely, with without a doubt. The mask can also be used for good. So we're so used to being masked. We're so used to grabbing Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: the mask that suits other people. What if we grab the mask that suited ourselves? What if we looked at that aligned self? We looked at that temple and we're like, all right, excellent. What is the mask that I actually want to wear? Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: That aligns with who I am. If I must wear a mask, let me choose the mask. Because it's a hard habit to break, to reach for a mask. And maybe sometimes you're not ready or willing or even able to rip off a mask because it feels so good on your face. So change the mask. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: Adopt something, Erin Sheffield: Wow. Dr. Diane Dye: adopt something new. I I adopted a mask while I was getting my doctorate to encourage me to finish. And I called it my mask was Rich Hot Doctor. And it was aligned with my big rocks, my pillars, my financial pillar, my complete my education pillar, and my health and fitness pillar. And by setting those pillars, those guidelines for myself, I came up with these three words that I could just look at myself and going, Am I being a rich hawk doctor today? Am I showing up like the rich hawk doctor I wanna be? And rich not just in money, but rich in experience and rich in love and rich in life. And and now I looked at myself and I'm like, you know. I feel more aligned with that chosen mask because I feel it in here. Not that I want people to start calling me that. That is not the outcome. Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: This is a tool for me. This is a mask I wear for me. And when you start wearing the mask for yourself versus others, there is a shift that happens. And I think it's now it's time for me now that I'm Through my education and all of that, like what is the next mass? So we can we can switch out our own masks for ourselves to give ourselves that bravery, that courage, that ability to stare those three horsemen down and say, guilt, shame, fear, you ain't got nothing on fill in the blank here, whatever Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: that is. And when you step into your dream with that energy. The ideas, the inventions, the paths forward, they they open up because you're able to see so much more clearly because you've chosen your pair of glasses, not somebody else. Erin Sheffield: I love that. I this is a topic that's really fascinating to me because Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I'm probably on the pathological scale of unmasking. I'm like the compulsive oversharer, radical authenticity. So it's very, very rare that I would feel uncomfortable sharing something. It's almost more uncomfortable for me not to be known. And so I'm always so puzzled, like, why do people feel like they have to hide this stuff? And Part of that's because I can't think of a single time where someone has revealed something to me and it hasn't like endeared them to me more. Just that vulnerability, that humility to share, that humanity. And most of the times the things that they share that they're terrified to let onto, it's like, girl, that's nothing. Or we already knew that, or you know, like, Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I mean, if you're gonna tell me you're a serial killer and you've got someone locked up in your basement. that's another thing, but I think most Dr. Diane Dye: Ha ha ha. Erin Sheffield: of the time the things that we're so afraid to share are sometimes the things that we love about each other. They're the things that make us human and relatable. And so I think trying to find those safe places to try to take off that mask and get used to it, I think is a valuable thing. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah, it it's it's an experiment, Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: but I I also am curious back at you, Arian, of the conditions that were set for you to feel so good unmasked. Dr. Sarah Harding: And safe. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I don't know. I I don't know if it's just like a natural thing. Cause I would also say I've had a very deep wound that's taken me ten years of therapy, a lot of therapy and self-reflection and healing of am I okay and am I enough? And to me that doesn't that's such a like inherent shame thing. And and it goes down to something as simple as everyone loves Harry Potter and I don't. Does that mean there's something wrong with me? Instead of just being like, I just don't like it. That's okay. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I feel like there's something wrong with me. and I've always felt that way. You know, if everyone if everyone else in the crowd is going one way and I don't, it's like, well, what's why am I the weirdo? And so I've always felt uncomfortable and it feels like it's coming from a place of shame. So Maybe maybe I found as a coping mechanism that sharing kind of did endear people to me, even if I felt like it was kind of embarrassing. Maybe it's the opposite. I don't know. I'm gonna have to think Dr. Diane Dye: Exposure therapy. Erin Sheffield: on that. Yeah. Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. Dr. Diane Dye: It's it's exposure therapy. It's it's really it's very tantamount to what I've had to start to do for myself because I come from a similar place, although mine was Lord of the Rings. I did not like Lord of the Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: Rings. I fell asleep during the Lord of the Rings. I tried, I meant so much Erin Sheffield: Right. Dr. Sarah Harding: I've never even watched it. That's okay. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: effort trying to do it. Yeah. So Dr. Sarah Harding: Star Wars, man. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah, so much effort into trying to to be in with the trend, right? And then is there something wrong with me? And I think that there's a personal crossroads we have to come to with that. And exposure therapy works. That's why you see Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: when you see people who are afraid of rejection and they go out and try to get rejected a hundred times and then they figure out that they learn something from the rejection. That's personal exposure therapy. Erin Sheffield: Right. Dr. Diane Dye: So I I love that. that that is the the experiment for you is is just to ex continue continue to expose expose expose find your people and and has it has it worked well for you? Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I mean I think that I get complimented all the time. You're so brave, you're so courageous, you're so authentic, and it feels weird to get those compliments because it feels like such not a thing I'm doing to be admired or to to be applauded for. It just feels Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: You're doing it for yourself. Erin Sheffield: like me. But I think people really resonate with that and I realize it's very unusual with how much I get the comments that it must be weird that I'm that way. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. Yeah. You're doing it for yourself. And that's what makes it so incredibly powerful. You're not being authentic for the clicks. You're being authentic because you're Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: you. And I think you can feel the difference. I think you Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: can feel the difference when people are being authentic for the clicks and then they're being authentic because like this is actually what I'm going through and I Want to find my people and I want to share it and I want to want to align. So this show, the show underneath the tent is this thing called life. And if you spend a lot of time with a tent pool you think you should have, you're and you you're gonna end up looking at your show and going, Why did I pay the price for the admission to this? And that's that's how I felt back then. I looked at that show after sixteen years of marriage. I looked Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: at that show and I said, I love horror movies, but I don't want to live in one. Dr. Sarah Harding: Right. I'll pay for admission for somebody else's horror movie. I don't need my own. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: Exactly. Exactly. I Yeah. I Erin Sheffield: Long as it's fiction. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Dr. Diane Dye: I I love me horror novels, horror movies, horror, everything. I love it. But I didn't Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm. Dr. Diane Dye: want to live it. And and Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: that comes to a decision, but it doesn't have to be anything as as harsh as you know, a situation of psychological aggression or abuse at home. It Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: It can be something that just doesn't feel right, something that is just out of alignment. And that that lack of alignment is a call for alignment with self, but it's also a call for innovation and change. Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes Erin Sheffield: Thank you. Dr. Sarah Harding: you just have to shake the apple tree and just start over again, right? Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. Sometimes you do. And sometimes you don't have to destroy the building. I have seen plenty of beautiful refurbishments. Now that motel that my dad lost, Erin Sheffield: You don't have to burn it all down. Dr. Diane Dye: it sold to another owner, and that owner did not survive the pandemic. So now just like that movie Gross Point Blank, I you can go home again, but you can also shop there. There's a convenience store over where my old bedroom used to be. Dr. Sarah Harding: Wow. Wow. Interesting. Dr. Diane Dye: Yeah. So sometimes you have to level it and sometimes you can't, don't have to. Sometimes you can gentrify yourself and Erin Sheffield: Mm. Dr. Diane Dye: and make what was what was something new because of it. And I feel I feel that's really where I am. I haven't torn down the old version of Diane. I I look past at that past version of me, that version who was sober off of drugs and alcohol for five years straight in order just to get my head right. That version of me that withstood what happened during my marriage, that version of me that truly believed she was small time, because that's what she heard every day. And I look at that and I go, wonderful, you survived that. That's great. And let's take the bones of what that brought you and write a dissertation to find women who maybe can believe and trust in their bosses so that they can divulge something that's important to them. It doesn't have to be a domestic violence disclosure. It can be a disclosure of I need to pick my kid up from school or a disclosure of I'm ready to be promoted or a disclosure of. it's you know it's time for me to leave and Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Dr. Diane Dye: those are those are sensitive disclosures because they're personal so if my story can help with unmasking with sensitive disclosures with innovation and I had to go through all that to get here wow thank you thank you past me Thank you for Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: for that for that gift, because now I can I can be brave enough to bring my full self forward Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Dr. Diane Dye: and find people who are going to be helped. Erin Sheffield: That's great. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: Thank you so much for sharing. I think we've really hit on some interesting, kind of deep topics that I'm going to be continuing to ruminate on. Where Dr. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: can our listeners find and connect with you if they're interested in following you in your journey or maybe connecting with you as a consultant? Dr. Diane Dye: Yep. I am Dr. at Dr. Diane Dye, D-I-A-N-E-D-Y-E on all of the social media channels, including LinkedIn. And I have an invitation right now. I actually am answering business questions for free on my socials. So if you have a question or crossroads that you're at, drop me a DM and tell me what that is. Follow me, drop me a DM and tell me what that is, and I will create some content. just for you. If you need help right now, my workbook creating critical opportunity is available on Amazon dot com and has the whole process of how you can emerge from into awareness, consciousness, and humility about your particular situation. Dr. Sarah Harding: Awesome. Yes. Thank you so much. This has been really enlightening and empowering as well. And we always love talking about pivots and shifts and alignment, of course. So, you know, that's our jam here. Dr. Diane Dye: Okay, well thank you so much for having me. Dr. Sarah Harding: Yes. Erin Sheffield: Thank you. Dr. Sarah Harding: Thank you. Well, thanks again, listeners, for following along with us. Please like, share, and follow the Resting Stitch Face Podcast, and we'll see you soon. Erin Sheffield: Thank you. Dr. Sarah Harding: Thank you.