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Off Record: Held at Gunpoint (with Tom Breyfogle) · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent the Knife or
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  Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media.
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  Speaker 3: He pulls the gun out again, not holding it up,
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  Speaker 3: but just showing it to me again. I'm going to
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  Speaker 3: go in there, going to heat up the house with
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  Speaker 3: this Glock. I'm going to run out. You're going to
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  Speaker 3: drive me away. Then we're going to split the money
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  Speaker 3: three ways.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton. And
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  Speaker 2: before we get into today's episode, I just want to
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  Speaker 2: say thanks so much for sticking with us. Hannah is
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  Speaker 2: on her way back from parental leave, and we're back
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  Speaker 2: to our regular format starting next week. We have an
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  Speaker 2: incredible interview for you. And I'm also so excited about
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  Speaker 2: today's episode. We have today in the studio another very
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  Speaker 2: special guest whose work you are definitely familiar with because
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  Speaker 2: he produces and edits our show, Tom Breyfogle.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me here.
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  Speaker 2: So Tom has a story for us that we're going
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  Speaker 2: to hear in the second half of the episode. But,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I get to the studio pretty early on
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  Speaker 2: recording days because I live over an hour away and
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  Speaker 2: I hate being late. So we always just like get
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  Speaker 2: to talking before we start recording. And you mentioned the
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  Speaker 2: story to me. And It just reiterated like how many
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  Speaker 2: of us have really lived through some type of crime story,
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  Speaker 2: big or small. And when you told me about what
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  Speaker 2: happened to you, which we'll hear more about, I started thinking,
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  Speaker 2: how many people actually survive after being held at gunpoint
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  Speaker 2: or kidnapped or both? And so today I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: start by telling you a story about a man named
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  Speaker 2: Stanley Alpert. Let's get into it. So this story takes
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  Speaker 2: place in New York in January of 1998. It's January 21st, actually,
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  Speaker 2: in Greenwich Village specifically. So it's very cold. The streets
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  Speaker 2: are quiet. It's late at night. And Stanley Alpert, who
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  Speaker 2: is 37, he works as a federal prosecutor. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he has spent most of his professional life sort of
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  Speaker 2: seeing the darker side of human behavior. Like when people's
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  Speaker 2: life maybe snowballs, gets away from them, they didn't mean
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  Speaker 2: to intend to commit a crime, but there they are.
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  Speaker 2: Or maybe they did, but he's seen the worst of it.
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  Speaker 2: And so he understands criminals and evidence and also what
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  Speaker 2: someone might need to put together a case. But, you know,
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  Speaker 2: understanding a crime from the perspective as an attorney is
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  Speaker 2: obviously very different than becoming a victim. So on this
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  Speaker 2: evening in late January, Stanley has gone on a date
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  Speaker 2: with I don't think it was love. So, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he's headed home. And I was actually, as I was
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  Speaker 2: working into the story, trying to find details like, how
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  Speaker 2: was the date? Did it go well? Because in one
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  Speaker 2: article it said it didn't go well. And I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: let's hear it. What happened? Couldn't find any details on
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  Speaker 2: that part of the story. But anyway, Stanley starts walking
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  Speaker 2: home and he gets on the subway where he actually
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  Speaker 2: meets a woman that he kind of hits it off with.
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  Speaker 2: And so he then offers to walk her home. So
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  Speaker 2: he walks her home. He's making his way back through
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  Speaker 2: the city, and he's wearing a scarf.
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  Speaker 3: It's cold.
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  Speaker 2: And he's walking along, continuing to East 10th Street, just
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  Speaker 2: sort of thinking about what he's going to do when
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  Speaker 2: he gets home, just relaxing for the night. So what
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  Speaker 2: Stanley didn't know is that he was sort of being watched.
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  Speaker 2: And as he walks toward his home, he's getting to
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  Speaker 2: the corner of 10th and 5th Avenue, and everything changes
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  Speaker 2: when a man suddenly grabs him. Okay. before he could
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  Speaker 2: really even understand what was happening, he turns and finds
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  Speaker 2: himself staring at a large gun. And obviously that's incredibly scary.
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  Speaker 2: And then other men appear behind him and they shove
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  Speaker 2: him toward a waiting car. And I think there's probably
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  Speaker 2: a moment like this in every crime story where in
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  Speaker 2: this split second, you go from feeling safe and sort
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  Speaker 2: of you know, life going on as expected to knowing
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  Speaker 2: you are in imminent danger and you no longer have
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  Speaker 2: control over what happens to you in a way. And
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  Speaker 2: sometimes that moment sort of stretches out while your brain
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  Speaker 2: runs through options. But if there's a gun in your face,
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  Speaker 2: you don't have time. And these men order him into
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  Speaker 2: a nearby vehicle and he gets in. So these kidnappers
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  Speaker 2: really make their intentions with him very clear. They are
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  Speaker 2: going to take him to an ATM and they're going
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  Speaker 2: to get money out. And then they're going to release him.
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  Speaker 2: That's what they tell him. But they also say that
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  Speaker 2: if he resists, it could cost him his life. And
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  Speaker 2: so the car pulls away from the curb. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: if I'm in that situation, I imagine you're wondering, like,
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  Speaker 2: what's in it for them to let me go once
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  Speaker 2: they do this? Because then I'm just going to run
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  Speaker 2: right to the police and identify them.
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  Speaker 3: And an ATM in 1998, you can only take out
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  Speaker 3: like $ 200. Right. And so on this car ride, they
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  Speaker 3: blindfold him.
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  Speaker 2: And he doesn't recognize their voices. He doesn't know them.
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  Speaker 2: But he starts listening for any clue he can find,
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  Speaker 2: sort of anything to understand more about their motivation beyond
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  Speaker 2: just the money. So they're going to take him to
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  Speaker 2: an ATM. They're going to get some money out. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's not a lot, right? What'd you say, like $ 200?
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  Speaker 3: I think that was the max then.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, it's not, you're not
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  Speaker 2: going to get out someone's life savings at an ATM.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But they're pumped on this idea that they may get
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  Speaker 2: a couple hundred bucks. So they ask for his PIN number.
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  Speaker 2: And at that point, he's like, okay, once they have
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  Speaker 2: my PIN number, they'll be able to see how much
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  Speaker 2: money is in my account. So I'm just going to
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  Speaker 2: tell them. And he tells them he has $ 110, 000 in
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  Speaker 2: savings and they are just like blown away by this.
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  Speaker 2: And so they restructure their plan. They're like, we're not
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  Speaker 2: just taking you to the ATM tonight. We're going to
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  Speaker 2: keep you with us. And in the morning, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to go into the bank and we're going to withdraw $ 50, 000.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, no. Yeah. So if this guy, let's say he
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  Speaker 3: only had $ 1, 000, he maybe could have been let go
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  Speaker 3: that night.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, no.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: If he had only been.
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  Speaker 2: Less good about saving money. So the car, they go
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  Speaker 2: to the ATM, they get out the couple hundred dollars,
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  Speaker 2: and then they continue on to a very rundown hotel
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  Speaker 2: in Brooklyn. And he's pulled out of the car, still blindfolded,
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  Speaker 2: pushed down these hallways and up flights of stairs. And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, you're told never to go to a second location,
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  Speaker 2: but what choice did he really have? So now he's
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  Speaker 2: in this unfamiliar building, surrounded by people he doesn't know
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  Speaker 2: with no idea of what's actually going to happen next.
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  Speaker 2: Because now they have his PIN number. They have his card.
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  Speaker 2: They don't necessarily need him. They might need him to
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  Speaker 2: walk him into a bank, into a massive withdrawal of money,
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  Speaker 2: but they don't need him to go keep using his
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  Speaker 2: ATM card.
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  Speaker 3: Did he have a cell phone?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if he had a cell phone, but
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  Speaker 2: they weren't letting him access anything, see anything. He was
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  Speaker 2: being supervised. I think there were four of them. And
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  Speaker 2: then there were other people at this sort of like
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  Speaker 2: party that they were going to at this hotel. I
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  Speaker 2: don't know that it was really a party. It was
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  Speaker 2: people drinking and using drugs. So he decides he's just
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  Speaker 2: going to follow their lead because in certain moments they
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  Speaker 2: start acting like very sort of lighthearted. Like they're excited
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  Speaker 2: about getting this money. He tells them it's actually my
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  Speaker 2: birthday's tomorrow. And they think that's hilarious. So they start
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  Speaker 2: offering him things at this party that he doesn't want,
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  Speaker 2: you know, alcohol, drugs. There are sex workers there that
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  Speaker 2: they offer to put him in touch with. And he
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  Speaker 2: just decides, okay, I'm going to stay calm and I'm
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  Speaker 2: just going to take in every detail that I can
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  Speaker 2: so that if I get out of this, I can
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  Speaker 2: identify them. So he starts paying very close attention to
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  Speaker 2: their sounds and movements, their voices, their conversations. And hours
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  Speaker 2: pass and they are partying. They're smoking and drinking and
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  Speaker 2: they're letting their guard down a little bit. And at
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  Speaker 2: one point, though, one of them recognizes that this is
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  Speaker 2: someone who we've kidnapped them. We need to be serious
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  Speaker 2: about this. And then so they switch on him and
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  Speaker 2: all of a sudden be scary again. say, if you
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  Speaker 2: try anything, we're going to kill your family. So at
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  Speaker 2: that point, he's feeling the weight of this. He's like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to die here, but I definitely don't
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  Speaker 2: want my family to die. And so he gets like
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  Speaker 2: very afraid, but just maintains a sense of calm and
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  Speaker 2: recognizes like the best thing he could do right now
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  Speaker 2: is not antagonize them and just appear approachable and non-threatening.
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  Speaker 2: And I don't know exactly how this gets revealed. I
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  Speaker 2: think he tells them He is, because they ask, a
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  Speaker 2: federal prosecutor. So it's, you know, it's a very specific
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  Speaker 2: type of lawyer. And they're like, OK, we really don't
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  Speaker 2: want to get in trouble with a federal prosecutor. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So at this point, he's probably realizing they don't know
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  Speaker 3: him because he doesn't know if these are colleagues or
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  Speaker 3: if these are enemies.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: So if I was him, I'd be if they're asking
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  Speaker 3: all of those questions and all of the getting high
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  Speaker 3: and then being like, guys, we're kidnapping someone. I'd be like,
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  Speaker 3: these are strangers. And in some ways that makes it scarier.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. They had maybe watched him for a block
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  Speaker 2: or two, I think, but this wasn't like a long-term targeting.
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  Speaker 2: And so they start asking him for advice on criminal matters.
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  Speaker 2: And he's like, okay, I'm just going along with it.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's keeping him alive. Like every minute he
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  Speaker 2: can stay alive and have them see him as a
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  Speaker 2: source of real money the next day, the better off
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  Speaker 2: he'll be. But as the night continues, they start to
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  Speaker 2: really play out their plan for the next day. They
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  Speaker 2: plan to walk him into a bank and withdraw 50 grand.
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  Speaker 2: And then they start thinking, what's it going to look
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  Speaker 2: like for us to walk into a bank with this
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  Speaker 2: guy that looks nothing like us and he is withdrawing
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  Speaker 2: a bunch of money and we're all with him?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Like, this looks weird. And we can't send him in
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  Speaker 2: there by himself.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, he would just tell them immediately. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So they start to worry about the attention that their
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  Speaker 2: crime might end up attracting, and they decide that it's
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  Speaker 2: in their best interest to release him.
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  Speaker 3: Release him and not even go through with the withdrawal.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And so that doesn't totally comfort Stanley Alpert. He's sort
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  Speaker 2: of like, I'll believe it when I see it. So
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  Speaker 2: he keeps paying attention. You know, what are they talking about?
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  Speaker 2: They're still acting erratically in one moment. They're going to
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  Speaker 2: release him in the next. They're threatening him. They're arguing
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  Speaker 2: about what the best course of action is. And he's
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  Speaker 2: still blindfolded this whole time. And they put him back
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  Speaker 2: into a car.
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  Speaker 3: Is this the next morning?
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  Speaker 2: This is later that night.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And he hears duct tape. being pulled and he's like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: this is it for me. And so they get in
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  Speaker 2: a car. I don't know if I already said that,
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  Speaker 2: but they get back in a car and they leave again.
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  Speaker 2: And he's been listening to them all night and he's like,
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  Speaker 2: where are they taking me? Where are they taking me?
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  Speaker 2: And 25 hours has gone by at this point. So
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  Speaker 2: I guess it is well into the next day, but
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  Speaker 2: the car arrives, they push him out of the car
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  Speaker 2: and He's still not even sure where he is. He's like,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to take off this blindfold. Am I... Like,
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  Speaker 2: who's going to be there if I take it off?
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  Speaker 2: Who's going to see me?
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  Speaker 3: But his hands are loose? Yeah. Okay.
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  Speaker 2: They just push him out of the car. And so
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  Speaker 2: he waits, I don't know how many minutes. And then
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  Speaker 2: he finally takes the blindfold off. And he's in Prospect
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  Speaker 2: Park in Brooklyn. He runs to a local pizza shop.
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  Speaker 2: He calls the authorities and... tells them what happened. And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, even though he's an attorney and he had
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  Speaker 2: no criminal record or reason to lie to the authorities,
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  Speaker 2: it's like a very bizarre story. You know, there were
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  Speaker 2: four young men that kidnap him. They push him into
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  Speaker 2: a car. They want to withdraw some money. They find
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  Speaker 2: out he has more money. Then they get scared. And
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  Speaker 2: then they just keep him at this party for 24 hours.
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  Speaker 2: Then they release him. And so they're trying to figure out, okay, well,
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  Speaker 2: who are these people? And Stanley's like, well, I have
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  Speaker 2: a few details that I was able to remember. And
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  Speaker 2: he is able to describe a little bit about the
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  Speaker 2: men from their voices and the nicknames they were being called,
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  Speaker 2: the type of threats they were saying to him. He
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  Speaker 2: also recalls that they had mentioned kidnapping someone named Stephen
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  Speaker 2: a couple of nights prior.
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  Speaker 3: So....
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  Speaker 2: Also, during the night, they had gone to a sandwich
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  Speaker 2: shop and he, I don't know if it was like
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  Speaker 2: he could see under the blindfold a little bit, but
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  Speaker 2: he was able to notice the tile pattern.
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  Speaker 3: Hold on. They took him into a sandwich shop blindfolded
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  Speaker 3: and no one working there thought anything about it.
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  Speaker 2: So I don't know if he was like blindfolded in
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  Speaker 2: the sandwich shop or if they were like act normal,
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  Speaker 2: but he was at the sandwich shop and was like,
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  Speaker 2: I remember the tile.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And so he relays that information to the authorities. Pretty soon,
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  Speaker 2: the FBI is out walking the streets of Brooklyn looking
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  Speaker 2: for the specific tile pattern. They find it. And this
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  Speaker 2: other detail crosses his mind where when they were at
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  Speaker 2: this party type of situation at this rundown motel, one
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  Speaker 2: of the women there was trying to reach one of
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  Speaker 2: the kidnappers who had gone to somewhere else briefly. And
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  Speaker 2: she's calling him on a phone, like his phone that
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  Speaker 2: she's calling him on had belonged to the man named
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  Speaker 2: Stephen that they had kidnapped. So they had stolen Stephen's
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  Speaker 2: phone and they were using it. So they find this
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  Speaker 2: Stephen person and they subpoena his phone records. And from there,
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  Speaker 2: they're able to connect to. Actually, she wasn't a woman.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: She was a girl. She was 16. Yeah. And from there,
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  Speaker 2: put together through phone numbers, who was actually there that night.
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  Speaker 2: And so they were all arrested and And they were all,
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  Speaker 2: I think, under the age of 25. And then there
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  Speaker 2: were two girls who were 16, which obviously is so sad.
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  Speaker 2: But the men were the kidnappers, Louis Sanchez, Wilbur Ford,
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  Speaker 2: Terrence Agostini, Sean Limerick. And they were all sentenced to
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: 15 years to life.
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  Speaker 3: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they had violently kidnapped him.
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  Speaker 3: And.
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  Speaker 2: The teenage girls that were there were also sentenced, but
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  Speaker 2: I think it was less than six months.
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  Speaker 3: Wow. Do you know if they let him eat or
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: have water or anything in those 25 hours?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they did offer him food at different points. And he,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if he accepted it, but it sounds
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: like he tried his best to just match their energy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty smart.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm not going to freak them out by
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: being you know, I'm going to get you in so
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: much trouble if you don't let me go.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Probably not what they would want to hear. And he
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: lived to tell the tale. So, I mean, you think
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: about like being kidnapped for any amount of time, terrifying,
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  Speaker 2: 25 hours. That is a long time. And I imagine
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  Speaker 2: he's not sleeping.
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  Speaker 3: No way.
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  Speaker 2: You're just on the adrenaline of like survival. You don't
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: know where you are. You're with people who, you know, have...
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  Speaker 2: for whatever reason, like a huge incentive. They either want
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: or need money that badly that they'll go to great
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  Speaker 2: lengths to get it. And now they know you have
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  Speaker 2: a lot of it. It's a scary place to be.
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  Speaker 3: That is so scary. Being blindfolded for 25 hours in
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  Speaker 3: that area with all the people, I would be having
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  Speaker 3: panic attack after panic attack.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he stayed so calm. It's like amazing.
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  Speaker 2: I lived in New York after college and I moved
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: from where I went to school in Pullman, Washington, to
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: the East Village. And I bartended at a bar called
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: the National Underground. And it was on East Houston between
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Allen and Eldridge. And I didn't live far from there.
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  Speaker 2: And so I thought one morning at like 4 a.m.,
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  Speaker 2: I would just walk home. And I'm like, at this
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  Speaker 2: moment in time, I'm 21. I graduated college a little
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: on the younger side. And so I'm 21. I'm walking
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  Speaker 2: home and this man appears behind me. And all I
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  Speaker 2: could think to myself was, oh, it's four o'clock in
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  Speaker 2: the morning. Like the only people out right now, even
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  Speaker 2: though I was out, are probably like marathon runners.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, bars close at three or four in New York. Right, right.
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  Speaker 2: And I just thought, and also he looked quite young.
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  Speaker 2: He looked like a teenager. And then before I know it,
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  Speaker 2: he's walking like parallel to me, like shoulder to shoulder.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, no, this is not good. And
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I had a shoulder bag and he just in a
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: split second just turned to me. I mean, nothing like
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: what happened to Stanley Helper, but he turned to me
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: and he grabbed my shoulder bag. And when that happened,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I turned and then my back was up against like
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: a building wall. And I had been applying for jobs.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't moved to New York to bartend.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Not that there's anything wrong with that. That was just like,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I was making some cash while I figured out what
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I was doing there, which I probably would have made
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: more doing that than I ever made in New York.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: But in my purse, I stupidly had my passport, my
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: social security card, my driver's license, my keys. And like,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: my family's not in New York. I barely knew anyone
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: there at the time. So all I could think to
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: myself was, I can't let him get my purse. And
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know how it happened, but like in the scuffle,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: I got my purse back and he ran. And as
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: I'm watching him run away, I'm just standing there like
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: a deer in the headlights, like what now? And I
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: realized how young he was. And I remember just thinking like,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like I'm probably older than this kid.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I was fine and I didn't lose anything.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: I got very lucky.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: You're very lucky he didn't have a gun or a knife.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I was like, I shouldn't have done that. I should
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: have just given him my purse and figured it out later.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you never know how you're going to react
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: in those moments.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Of course. Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Luckily, it's never happened to me again. So, Tom, you
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: have a story of your own. But before we get
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: into that, You have such a fun background and I
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: wanted to talk a little bit about it. You produce
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: and edit our show, but you are also a musician.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And so I'm a millennial and like all good millennials,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I started going to emo rock shows in junior high
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: and high school. Tom is a former member of Reliant
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: K and And secondhand serenade. Both.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: It's amazing.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And for me, this was awesome to hear.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: We knew each other for like six months before I
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: mentioned that to you. I know.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: And I was like, what? It's amazing. I'm from the
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Seattle area and no stranger to that scene. I remember
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: going to this venue, El Corazon.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Right off the highway. It used to be
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: called the Off-Ramp.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was right by REI.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: I've played there with many bands.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: It's like, I wonder if we were ever there at
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: the same time. That's so crazy to think about. But
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: you also have Birds in the Airport.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Birds in the Airport, my solo project that's been
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: pretty dormant for the last few years, but I'm in
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: the middle of making an album now. And The Knife,
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: that's actually Birds in the Airport music. Anytime I compose
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: something that sounds similar to that vibe, I credit it
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: as that. And this week I've been doing a new
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: podcast for Exactly Right, and it'll be a new Birds
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: in the Airport song.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: I love that we have an original Birds in the Airport,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: Do you know that's my voice screaming at the beginning
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: of The Knife? No. When the beat hits, it's me
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: screaming through a guitar amp.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I did not know that. I actually think I'd have
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: to listen to it right now to even hear that. Yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think I realized anyone was screaming, which I like.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't want it to sound like a scream.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: It just sounded nice.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Okay. So there you have it. Tom is the person
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: screaming in our theme music. So you mentioned to me
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: something that had happened to you at one of these shows,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and I thought it would be a story you could
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: tell on the knife.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: Totally. All right. So I'm going to tell this story
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: to the best of my memory because this is a
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: story I rarely tell.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Why do you rarely tell it? Like, why do you
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: think that is?
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: Because it's not like a dinner party story. And I'm
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: not trying to out trauma someone if someone brings up something.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: So I really remember telling it one time years after
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: it happened. And that's part of this story when I
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: retold it. But no, I never really bring it up.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: OK, well, I feel honored to hear it.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Also, if I laugh during this, It's not a funny story.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: I'm just laughing at the 17-year-old version of myself in
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: this story, thinking like, what the hell? I can't believe
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: you put yourself in that situation. Yeah. Or not even
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: that I put myself in the situation. I really wasn't
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: at fault for anything. It's just I can't believe that happened.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: We never know how we're going to react to something. Totally.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Totally. So last week, my wife and I were driving
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: out to Pioneertown near Joshua Tree to see a band
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: called Local H.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: But this is like present day.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: This is last week. This is October 6th, 2026. Okay.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: You guys are driving to Pioneertown.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Driving to Pioneertown to see this band called Local H.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: I've been a big fan of theirs my whole life.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: They're one of the bands who kind of taught me
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: how to play drums by playing along to their CDs.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Just a two-piece band. The drummer changes out about every
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: 10 years, which is a pretty good run. They've been
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: a band like 40 years.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Wow. So I'm still a fan of that band. And
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: when I was 12, they were the first band I
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: ever saw like without a parent. And then I saw
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: them again.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: That's a core memory.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Oh, totally. My dad just dropped me off. My dad
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: had a ticket to the show, but just was like,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you guys enjoy yourselves.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: He's like, no, I'm not going in. That was for
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: your mom.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: So I saw them then when I was 12. Saw
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: them when I was 14. Then we lost a drummer.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: They got a new drummer. So there had to be
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: a break. They didn't come back till I was 17.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Were you ever watching the shows like, I could be
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: your next guy?
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: Back then I would have, yeah. Yeah. December 1st, 2001,
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: I'm 17. I'm a junior in high school, locally just
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: finally coming back to Cleveland. They were on a tour
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: called the Six Ways to Sunday Tour, which even at
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: the time it was pretty ridiculously cheap. It was $ 6 tickets,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: $ 6 t-shirts, and $ 6 CDs.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Okay. So you're like, this is in my 17-year-old budget.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. So they were playing a place called Peabody's
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: Down Under in Cleveland. It's downtown Cleveland.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: What is downtown Cleveland like? I've never actually been there.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: It's not that big. When I was a kid, I
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: remember it being very big. But it's a city where
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: the baseball field is part of the skyline. It's like
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: a major part of the downtown area. Then there's a
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: lot of big buildings. The Rock and Roll Hall of
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: Fame is over by the water. And that's where the
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: football stadium is. And then you go down a hill
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: and you're in an area called the Flats. And that's
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: where all the bars and other concert venues are. But
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: this one is right by the baseball stadium.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: This is like a safe area? Not really.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: An O-1... It's probably safer now. It wasn't like a bad,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: bad area, but no, it wasn't that great of an area.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: So they're playing Peabody's, 600 people. It was sold out.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: And there was an opening band called Evil Beaver. That
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: was the only opening band.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: And Omen, maybe.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Maybe. So in 2001... Also, I'm giving a lot of
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: random details. They all do pay up. Okay, good. So
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: stick around. In 2001, I was a vegetarian and I
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: lived in Canton, Ohio, which was a terrible place to
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: be a vegetarian. And Canton did not have Chipotle, but
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Cleveland did.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I wonder if there is a place in Ohio where
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: it's like better to be a vegetarian.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Well, now anywhere would be. Oh, really? Yeah. Then, then.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: So yeah, me getting Chipotle in Cleveland was like fine dining.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: I thought it was so good. So anytime I went
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: to Cleveland, I had to go to Chipotle. And Chipotle
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: wasn't anywhere near this venue. It was another half hour away.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: But it's worth it.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: It was very worth it. So I got my delicious
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: veggie burrito. I eat half of it. I save the
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: other half because I want to experience that twice in
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: one day.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: And then so we go to the concert with the
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: burritos in the car. So we're at the concert, Evil Beaver.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: They were all right, but they weren't my favorite band.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: They weren't local age. They weren't local age. So my
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: friend Mickey and I were like, I want to go
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: eat those leftover burritos. And we're like, yeah. So we
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: walked back through the snow.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Whose car is this, by the way?
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: It's my car. Okay.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: What kind of car do you have?
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: It was a red 1992 Geo Prism.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Like I can picture this car exactly because I feel
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: like that was the car that... Your parents were done
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: with it by the time you could drive if.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: You're our age. That's exactly what it is.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, perfect.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: It was my dad's car in 1992, and then I
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: got it in 2000.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: So we walk out to the GeoPrism, and it doesn't
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: have automatic locks. Of course it doesn't. I unlock the
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: back door, grab the burritos, unlock the front door, get in,
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: unlock the door for Mickey, turn the car on because
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: it's freezing outside. Some music starts playing. Mid-burrito bite. And
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: I look up and there's a man sitting in my backseat.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: I see him in the rearview mirror.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: So he had been in the car?
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: I think what he had to do, I don't think
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: he was just going to pick a random car and
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: sit in it for hours. I think when I unlocked
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: the back door, got the burritos, and then was like
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: coming in, he had to swoop in right then through
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: the back door.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: And you didn't notice?
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: No, neither of us did.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: That is amazing. I mean, this is like teenage boy brain.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of that in this story.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: So my mouth is like filled with guacamole and this
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: dude is sitting in the car. And before we can
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: even like scream or anything, he's just like, hey guys,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: hey guys, hey guys, everything's cool. My car's broken down.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: I just need a jump. It's right down the street.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: He's about 26. He's a little shorter than me. He's
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: wearing a hoodie and a winter jacket. And he was
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: super calm and polite. And then he immediately asks our names.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: But what are you guys, are you guys looking at
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: each other in this moment or what is the energy?
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: The energy is wide eyes, like what's going on? But
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: the guy's like, I just need to jump from my car.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: What's your name? I'm like, Tom. He's like, Mickey. He's like, well, Tom,
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: my car needs a jump. You're going to drive me
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: out of this parking lot and take me there right now.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: And he's like smiling so big. And I'm just like, no, man, no, man,
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: we got to go on this concert. We got to
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: get out of here. And he's like, oh, come on,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: you're not going to leave me stranded. And then his
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: smile just goes to this evil look. And then the
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: smile comes right back. And he's like, come on, it'll
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: just take five minutes. And when he gave me that look,
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: I was just like, OK, he's in charge right now.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Part of me could have jumped out of the car.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: I don't know, because there were two of us. The
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: car is running. There's like food on our lap. If
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: we'd have jumped right out of the car, he could
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: have just stayed in the car. So I don't know.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's what we probably should have done. Yeah.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't there, but it seems like if
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: someone's in the back of your car and demanding you
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: drive them places, it's like, you know what? This car
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: seems like a great car for you. You should just
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: take it and I'll get.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Out of your way. He probably would have just taken
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: the car.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But, you know, your mouth was full of guacamole.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: A lot to process.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: I was 17. I wasn't stupid. I knew this was bad.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Did your friend know?
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: He had to know, but he definitely at this point
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: was so much more calm than me. Mm-hmm. Inside, I'm
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: panicked already at this moment. And so he's pointing us
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: out of the parking lot. We put the burritos down
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: at Mickey's feet and the guy's directing me where to drive.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: He says, we're going to go to Euclid Avenue. And
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: then we're driving down the street and he just starts
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: casually talking about guns.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, great.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. He says he never leaves the house without his Glock.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: And he says most of the time he carries a revolver, too.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like, you have that on you right now?
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: And he's just like, yeah, and just pulls the Glock out.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: He doesn't point it at us, but just wants us
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: to notice there.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, like, obviously very threatening, but you're also... This
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: is like pre-navigation system. You have to listen to where
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: he wants you to go and you're looking for the
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: street signs. Like you need to pay attention.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Good point. We're driving and then he's just like, oh,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: right there, right there, right there. Turn. And I turn
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: and it's a highway off ramp.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: And there's a semi and a car coming. I flip
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: a U-turn and just start sliding off the road. It's
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: the middle of winter and it's snowing. There's no accident whatsoever.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: everything's fine. I'm shook up now over that. Adrenaline is
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: just going full on. And the guy just starts cracking
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: up laughing. He's like, you're crazy, Tom. He just keeps
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: using my name.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. It's a powerful tool to connect with someone.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: He just has to keep saying Tom. So he has
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: this giant smile. He's calling me crazy and just like laughing.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: And he's just like, where are you from? And I say, Canton.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: And then immediately his face gets complicated. It looks like
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: a face of regret. And he's just like, Looking around,
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: he's like, man, I got cousins in Canton. They're about
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: your age. You remind me of them.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: And then he starts smiling again. He's like, you're making
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: me feel old. What a ride.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: You should be like, your cousin is my best friend. Yeah.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: And we have big plans tomorrow.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: Let me go.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Then we're driving. I just remember him repeatedly going, Canton,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: good people in Canton, good people in Canton. people in Canton.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: He's just like muttering that now while I'm driving.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I hope we have listeners in Canton right now being like,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: you know what?
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So then he's like, do you guys like smoking weed?
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I had never smoked weed at that point in my life.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: That actually shocks me given the scene that you were in.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: That I had never smoked weed? Yeah. I was around weed.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: way too early. So it scared the hell out of me.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I was 11 and I was like the one friend
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: who didn't smoke weed growing up.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, no rush. You're not going to miss anything.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Totally. So he's like, you guys like weed? And I'm like, no,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: I'm just terrified. And Mickey was just like, yeah, love weed.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. So Mickey was along for the ride.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: The U-turn didn't face him, the highway off him.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, he yelled during the U-turn. We all screamed during
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: the U-turn. The guy was like, ecstatic that Mickey liked weed.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: And he's like, Mickey, I'm smoking you out tonight. I mean,
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: Mickey was still, I'm sure, terrified.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: So he's an eternal optimist.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I bet Mickey would have smoked a joint with that
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: guy if he busted one out right then.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable. I'm nothing like Mickey.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: So then while we're driving, this is the final stretch.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: It's only about two miles. I'm kind of thinking this
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: gun's going to be at my head at any moment.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: We're getting closer to the destination. He asks if we
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: have cell phones. Mickey didn't. I said I did. And
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: then He wasn't too aggressive, but he's like, give me
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: your cell phone. I give him my cell phone. Mickey
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: starts to pull his pockets out to prove he doesn't
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: have a cell phone. And he's like, keep your hands
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: out of your pockets.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: You're like, you're scared of me right now, sir? You
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: popped up out of nowhere in my backseat and threatened
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: my life with a gun.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: So he points at this Chinese restaurant. It was abandoned.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: It was already closed with their parking lot in the
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: back that no one from the street could see. And
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: we pull in and I'm just like, where's your car?
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Where's your car? There's no cars back there.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, bad sign.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: And he's just like, park over there. And the second
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: I park, Mickey and I just jump out of the car.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Just on instinct. We obviously couldn't talk. We're just immediately
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: out of the car. Yeah. And he just walks out
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: super slow and super offended. He's like, damn, Tom, you're
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: acting like I'm about to rob you. Chill the fuck out.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: You're like, I'm acting like you're about to rob me?
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: You just carjacked me.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So then he hands me my cell phone back.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: That was so nice of him.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah. He's like, put that in your pocket. And he's like, Mickey,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: get back in the car. So Mickey gets in the car.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: And you don't?
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: You're like. I don't.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Goodbye, Mickey.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Goodbye, Mickey. So now it's just me and this man
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: standing in the snow in this parking lot. And again,
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, dude, where's your car? And he goes, okay,
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: so this is what's going to go down. I know
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: a house down the road where they're selling. They got
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: tons of drugs. He pulls the gun out again, not
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: holding it up, but just showing it to me again.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go in there, going to heat up
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: the house with this Glock. I'm going to run out.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: You're going to drive me away. Then we're going to
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: split the money three ways and I'm going to smoke
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Mickey out. And I'm like, no, man, I can't do that.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: He's still calm. He's just looking me up and down.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: You're like, did you not hear me? I don't even
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: smoke weed.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not enticing. And he's like, then give me $ 20.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: I'm like, okay. I had no wallet at the time.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: I had six $ 20 bills in my pocket, just loose.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: I reach my hand in and just like grab one
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: without him seeing the wad of money. I hand him
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: the $ 20 bill. And then he immediately goes, okay, so
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: this is what's going to go down. There's a house
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: down the road. They have drugs and a bunch of money.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go heat it up with my Glock.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: So this is a new plan.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: It says word for word.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: The same plan.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: The exact same thing.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: And then I'm just like, dude, I can't do that.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: And now... He gets the most aggressive he's been all
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: night here, where he's just like, then give me $ 20.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: I give him another $ 20.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: You're like, how many houses are we going to go through?
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: He tells the story. He eventually tells it four times.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: But after he tells it the third time, I'm like, dude,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: I can't do that. And he's like, Tom, don't forget
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: that I have a Glock and you just have your fists.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: You're like, I didn't forget. I can assure you.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And then he's like, I know you have a
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: pocket full of cash. I don't know how he, I mean,
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: a pocket full of cash is not $ 120, but he
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: did for some reason could tell I had more. So
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: after he told the story the fourth time and I
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: said no four times, I gave him the fourth $ 20 bill.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: So he's $ 80. He pulls it out and looks at
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: it with like a sparkle in his eye and disappears
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: into the darkness.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: He's like mission accomplished.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: And you have to wonder, you know, did he need
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to do the whole carjacking to get the money? probably
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: could have just slid into your backseat, said, give me
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: all your money. And you probably would have.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: That would have been much better. Yeah.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: OK.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: And so is Mickey watching from the car?
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: Mickey's in the car. And so I get back in
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: the car and we're driving back to the concert. And Mickey,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: this is what Mickey told me. I bet he wouldn't
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: have done this. And I'm so happy he didn't. He
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: said when he saw me handing over money, he was
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: contemplating to run and tackle the guy, which that would
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: have ended very poorly.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: What is that car? I mean, first of all, let's
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: just like put this in perspective. This has just happened
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: to you and your friend, Mickey. And Mickey is how old?
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: We're both 17.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: You're both 17. And in your 17-year-old boy brains, you're like,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: we will return to the show.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: We drive back to the same parking lot.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: What was that car ride like?
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: I remember just kind of feeling numb and just a
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: lot of adrenaline. But we were still going to the show.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Right now, if that happened... I don't think I would
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: go to the show.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: No, I certainly wouldn't go to the show.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Nor would I drive back to the exact parking lot. Right.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: But how far are you? Because in a way, it's like, well,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: I'm putting some distance.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: It's about two miles.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Two miles.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: Okay. The Chinese restaurant doesn't exist on any map now.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: I was trying to find exactly where it was, but
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: it was already abandoned back then.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Wow, this is a commitment to local age like they
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: didn't know they had, you know?
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Totally. So we go back into the show. It's hot
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: and sweaty in there, 600 people. The show was amazing.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: They debuted a lot of songs that night, or at
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: least in Cleveland, songs that weren't out yet. And like
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: one of my favorite songs of theirs they played that night.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: It's called Hands on the Bible. And thankfully, that song
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: doesn't make me think about that night for some reason.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: But also that show is on YouTube and you can
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: see me in like the second row. And I look
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: pretty normal. Anytime a crowd surfer comes and like a
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: leg would hit me, I like turn back and like
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: have a paranoid look where I don't know if that
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: paranoid look is because I was just robbed. So the
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: show ends. And there's an after party in the small room.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: It's called the Pirate's Cove. And the after party is
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: this band called Dysfunctional Ray, which I was friends with.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: And we should have just left when the show ended,
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: when the other 600 people left, so we could go
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: back to the parking lot.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Arguably, you should have left earlier.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we should have. But no, we stay. I mean, you.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Paid $ 6 for those tickets.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So then we go to the Pirate's Cove and
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: are watching our friend's band. And there's like 20 people
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: in there. At this point, anyone can come in. It's
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: not a ticketed event. And we're standing there watching them.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: In turn... There's the guy just staring at me with
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: a giant smile. He's in the venue now.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: He's in the music venue?
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: Because now the venue's open to anyone for the after party.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, so did he walk?
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: I don't know. He must have. And he's standing there
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: smiling at me like I was his best friend. And
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: Mickey and I just start leaving and he follows us.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: And we go outside. He is so high and not
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: high on weed. He was on hard drugs plus probably
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: blackout drunk. And he's like, Tom, Mickey, high-fiving us. His
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: friend walks up. He's like, I want to introduce you
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: to Tom and Mickey. They're from Canton. They're good people.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: And then he's like, you guys want to go smoke
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: a J? And we're like, nah, man, we're out of here.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: We're like, we've been through this. We don't.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: So then we left. We go to the car and
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: then we drive home safe. At this point, I would
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: not be able to recognize the guy unless someone told
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: me for sure it was him. But then 16 years
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: or so later, in February of 2017, Reliant K, we
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: were playing the House of Blues in Cleveland. And when
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: our bus strolled into town, we went right by that
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: parking lot. And so I told the guys that story.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: That's when I was saying I remember telling this story
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: another time. I told them and they all seemed very enthralled.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: And I was kind of like, oh, I should probably
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: write about this so I don't forget about it. So
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: I wrote a song about it that day from the
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: perspective of the guy. And I've never released that song,
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: but I might on this new Birds in the Airport
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: album might finally put it out.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean, like writing about your
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: own experience, especially one that was terrifying. Also, like you're
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: so young, 17, to be threatened in that way. I mean,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: maybe your age in a way in that moment helped
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: you because you didn't. I think at 17, this goes
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: for every 17 year old. Maybe I'm speaking about myself specifically.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: It's like, You cannot conceive of how much danger you
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: could be in sometimes. Like the things I did at 17,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: you know, and maybe that allowed you to drive like
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: a stunt driver, give him your money one bill at
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: a time. Like if you had given him all your
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: money at once, like maybe he would have been, you know,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: wanted more and then said, okay, we'll take me to
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: an ATM or whatever. But yeah, it seems like you
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: sort of took it in stride. Yeah.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: And I've been thinking about it this week. I hadn't
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: had these thoughts in the last 25 years. Like, is
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: the reason that he had cousins from Canton the reason
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: he didn't hurt us? Because he did change. His whole
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: demeanor changed when that got brought up. And then also,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: was there even a house or in that house? Were
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: there just his friends that would have robbed us? Or,
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: because he mentioned possibly having two guns, he wouldn't have
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: just left us to ditch him at the house if
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: this was real. Would he have made one of us
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: go in there?
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we interviewed Ellen. Her last name is escaping me
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: at the moment, but we did that episode about a
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: woman who was kidnapped.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: In Ohio.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: That was in Ohio?
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: She's the one who was blindfolded? Yes. Yeah, that was Ohio.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: In that story, she talks about how he started referring
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: to her as, I think, Rachel. And she could tell
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: that he cared about someone named Rachel. And so she's
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: sort of like, just, okay, call me Rachel. Yeah. And
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: that's a little bit like this cousin from Canton situation.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: It's like it struck some sort of chord with him
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: where he was able to slow down a little bit.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Gosh, it's like, one minute you're in your G.O. prison
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: meeting Chipotle leftovers in the next. You're being kidnapped.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: At some point.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: And what would have happened if we would have gotten
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: in an accident on the off-ramp?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think he would have just gotten out
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: and been like, man, the damage to your car looks
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: pretty bad. Can I have $ 80? Yeah, can I have $ 80?
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: You're like, no, I just wrecked my car. Yeah, I mean,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: that's so scary. Someone getting up out of my backseat
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: is like one of my fears. I actually had a
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Prius C for so long and I replaced it in
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the fall of 2024 with like a small SUV. And
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: I love my small SUV, but every time I get
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: into it, I'm like, I mean, I have my daughter usually,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: so I'm opening the back door first to put her in,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: but I'm like peeking into the trunk.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Like, this is so scary.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Did you ever see the movie Fargo?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: The shower curtain. I saw the movie when it came out,
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: so I was like 12. I checked the shower curtain
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: at any friend's house every time I ever went to
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: the bathroom. Oh, yeah.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Someone is absolutely going to be back there one of
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: these times. Yeah, that doesn't just happen in the movie. Well,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: that's a very scary story. I mean, I'm glad you
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: can tell it now without maybe having to relive it
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the way you would have felt like you were right
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: after it happened. Totally. I think it's telling that you
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: and Mickey didn't like immediately sort of run through what
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: had just happened. It was like you both needed to
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: sort of sit with it.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: On the drive home, I remember both of us laughing,
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: not in a funny way, just like, I can't believe
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: that happened. Did you tell your parents? I definitely called
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: my mom from the car. I don't remember if it
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: was in between the drive from getting robbed to going
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: to the concert. I bet that's when it was. And
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: she wasn't like, Tom, you need to come home. Yeah,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: that's probably what happened. It was either that or I
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: called them after the concert. But at that point, they
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: probably would have been in bed. But I do remember
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: talking to her on the phone with me being in Cleveland.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: And yeah, her obviously being very affected by it.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that would be even scarier, I'm sure,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: for a parent for that to have happened to their kid.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Tom, for sharing that story with me.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: So actually, this whole conversation reminded you of a movie rec.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So when I came in today, I didn't have
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: a recommendation. But you telling your story reminded me of
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: a Spike Lee movie that came out last year starring
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: Denzel Washington. It's called Highest to Lowest, two being the
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: number two. And it's about a kidnapping gone wrong, a
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: kidnapping that happens to a very wealthy man. They thought
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: they were kidnapping his son, but they actually accidentally kidnap
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: his son's friend. And there are a lot of parallels
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: from your story about the partying and things like that
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: with the kidnapping. And I really enjoyed it.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen that and I will have to watch it.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I have a book recommendation, fiction, but I think that
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: is something maybe a lot of you will really enjoy.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: I did. It's called The Responsible Party and it blends
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: family lore and present day murder mystery. There's a woman
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: named Claire who is a jobless beauty writer and she's
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: canceled after giving bad skincare advice. And she had submitted
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: this DNA kit, which comes back and basically sends her
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: on this hunt to explaining her wild family history and
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: having to investigate it. And I think that you guys
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: will really like it.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Nice.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. We will be back next week.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: If you have a story for us, we would love
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: to hear it. Our email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com. Or
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: you can follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: or Blue Sky at The Knife Podcast. This has been
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: an Exactly Right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifogel and
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Alexa Samorosi.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.