Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Anjuli Sherin. What Does It Mean To Be Alive?

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From the archives: Anjuli Sherin. What Does It Mean To Be Alive? · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Today we even another episode from the archives with one
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  Speaker 1: of my incredible guests, enjoy a right. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: the Trauma Theapists podcast. My name is Gamckferson. My mission
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  Speaker 1: is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to
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  Speaker 1: be human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm
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  Speaker 1: a big believer in who we are is more important
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  Speaker 1: than what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness,
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  Speaker 1: and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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  Speaker 1: my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist
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  Speaker 1: project dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Let's get started, all right, So here we go.
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  Speaker 1: So five four, three, two and one, right, folks, Welcome
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  Speaker 1: back to the Trauma Theapist Podcast. I am very excited
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  Speaker 1: to have as my guest today, Angelie.
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  Speaker 2: Angelie welcome.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me all right.
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  Speaker 1: So, Angelie is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing
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  Speaker 1: in trauma recovery, resilience building, and cultivating joy. Since two
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  Speaker 1: thousand and three, her practice has been working primarily with
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  Speaker 1: immigrant South Asian, Middle Eastern, Muslim and LGBTQI populations. In
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  Speaker 1: addition to over thirty thousand hours of individual and group work.
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  Speaker 1: She's a creator of three different programs. Angelie has been
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  Speaker 1: widely recognized for her unique achievements in the mental health field.
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  Speaker 1: Two thousand and seven, she received the Emerging Leader Award
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  Speaker 1: from the e Women Network, a nationwide business community, where
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  Speaker 1: she shared her award winning essay in front of a
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  Speaker 1: live audience as well as thousands more online. She's also
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  Speaker 1: been featured in Oh The Oprah magazine as a finalist
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  Speaker 1: of the old magazine White House Leadership Award.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, not too shabby, pretty.
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  Speaker 4: Cool, wonderful read out.
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  Speaker 2: That's pretty cool.
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  Speaker 1: We'll talk more about that as we get down here,
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  Speaker 1: but share with the listeners before we could go in angeley,
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  Speaker 1: where you're from originally and where you're calling from currently.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I'm from Pakistan and that is where my family
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  Speaker 3: lives now. And I moved to America when I was eighteen,
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  Speaker 3: and now I'm in the San Francisco Bay area and
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  Speaker 3: I've been practicing here with my own practice. It's about
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  Speaker 3: two thousanw thousand and four thousand and five.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's let's dive in here. How the heck
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  Speaker 2: did you get into this field?
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  Speaker 1: And then more specifically focusing on trauma and resilience buildings,
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  Speaker 1: and so I love that resilience and joy.
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  Speaker 2: But we'll get to that too, but share with us
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  Speaker 2: as story.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I think the.
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  Speaker 3: Story would be the story of a twenty two year
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  Speaker 3: old at this point. I've been in the US for
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  Speaker 3: about three years because I came over to eighteen, but
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  Speaker 3: I came over on my own, and I think I
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  Speaker 3: got very lucky as a twenty two year old that
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  Speaker 3: I did access to therapy and I was able to.
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  Speaker 4: Get into therapy at that time. And I got into.
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  Speaker 3: Therapy like most to anger yearals, probably because I was
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  Speaker 3: having a difficult time in relationships and romantic relationships and
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  Speaker 3: wondering why you know, I was kind of suffering inside
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  Speaker 3: of them and reenacting certain patterns. And the tool that
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  Speaker 3: helped me at that time to break out of dynamics
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  Speaker 3: and relationships is actually the very tool that then, now
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  Speaker 3: you know, many many years later, I turned around and
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  Speaker 3: built off of to write joyous resilience. So that initial tool,
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  Speaker 3: which I now call the cycle of suffering, broke open
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  Speaker 3: my own cycle of suffering, like why am I angry
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  Speaker 3: or self neglectful or shut down or isolating within relationships
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  Speaker 3: at that young age, and a lot of that was
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  Speaker 3: because of the trauma of I think immigrating at that age,
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  Speaker 3: not having a family here, all the different family dynamics
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  Speaker 3: that I think many people have, you know, as teenagers,
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  Speaker 3: and I think especially growing up in Pakistan with that
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  Speaker 3: culture kind of rot to the four but getting into
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  Speaker 3: therapy realizing that there was a way out, there was
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  Speaker 3: a way to actually see why I'm stuck, and then
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  Speaker 3: an actual way out of it. And the way out
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  Speaker 3: was a deep reparenting in some ways of myself. And
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  Speaker 3: that reparenting, which I then call formuling the circle of
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  Speaker 3: resilience inside of me. That became the work that I
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  Speaker 3: did for the next fifteen sixteen years with clients and
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  Speaker 3: became the model that I then went.
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  Speaker 1: On to teach.
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  Speaker 4: Well.
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  Speaker 1: So the.
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  Speaker 3: Say the name of the book again, Joyce resilience.
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  Speaker 2: Joyce Resilience. Okay, And you mentioned some trauma that.
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  Speaker 1: Resulted as in part from you moving to America. Talk
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  Speaker 1: a little bit about that coming here alone.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, And I mean I will say, and I
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  Speaker 3: think maybe many many people who've migrated or immigrants, especially
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  Speaker 3: from I think non European countries, right, just coming as
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  Speaker 3: an immigrant from a South Asian country or an africanuntry
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  Speaker 3: from the developing world is a very different experience, and
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  Speaker 3: I think than coming from a European country, especially to America,
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  Speaker 3: and also at the time that I came a few
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  Speaker 3: years later, nine to eleven happened, and so that completely
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  Speaker 3: changed the landscape of being in America as a South Asian.
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  Speaker 3: I often joke, it's not really a joke, you know.
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  Speaker 3: Before nine eleven, no one really knew, and I would
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  Speaker 3: say that I was from Pakistan, where Pakistani even necessarily
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  Speaker 3: was and after nine eleven, certainly I never had to
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  Speaker 3: explain that again, you know. But that also meant that
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  Speaker 3: like being a Pakistani, being a South Asian, being an
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  Speaker 3: immigrant who was of a Muslim origin was very much
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  Speaker 3: kind of right there in the forefront of what was
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  Speaker 3: happening around me and how I was maybe being looked at,
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  Speaker 3: or the level of safety.
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  Speaker 4: That I might have felt.
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  Speaker 3: So that's obviously some of the trauma I think of
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  Speaker 3: being an immigrant and here in the US at that time.
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  Speaker 3: And then I think there's just despite the privilege of
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  Speaker 3: coming over as an immigrant with you know, a middle
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  Speaker 3: class background, I'm coming to college and you know, I'm
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  Speaker 3: cared for in that way, I'm not coming and having
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  Speaker 3: to support myself off the bat immediately. There is still
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  Speaker 3: that feeling of separation from family, from country of origin,
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  Speaker 3: from language, from any known community, and the isolation that
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  Speaker 3: can engender. And you know, also being eighteen years old
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  Speaker 3: in twenty first time away from home, having to navigate
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  Speaker 3: all of that on my own. And that's on top of,
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  Speaker 3: like I said, family patterns that I'm already coming in
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  Speaker 3: different family dynamics that may have been happening there, and
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  Speaker 3: coming from a country where, despite having parents who are
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  Speaker 3: very supportive.
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  Speaker 4: Of me coming on my own, which is still rare for.
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  Speaker 3: A woman of Flanning origin her parents go go on
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  Speaker 3: your own to a different country without partner. There is
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  Speaker 3: still you know, control in that environment growing up in Pakistan,
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  Speaker 3: and I think some of that also carrying over that
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  Speaker 3: trauma of being controlled, controlled as a woman, limitation of choices,
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  Speaker 3: things I didn't even know until, like I said, now
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  Speaker 3: I'm here in America, I'm having my formative relationships and
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  Speaker 3: in partnership, I'm starting to see all of that stuff
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  Speaker 3: come out as anger or confusion or fear or just
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  Speaker 3: lack of knowing what am I feeling? Why? Am I
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  Speaker 3: feeling so disorganized? And it's for that that I started
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  Speaker 3: in therapy, and then from that kind of came the
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  Speaker 3: journey of really realizing there's a way to feel really
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  Speaker 3: happy and free inside that I didn't know.
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  Speaker 4: And once I got a.
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  Speaker 3: Taste of that, I think that just kind of set
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  Speaker 3: me on the path of I want to give this
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  Speaker 3: two others.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so just quickly two things here. When you came here,
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  Speaker 1: did you come here to go to school, and if so,
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  Speaker 1: for what specifically?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I came here to go to college. So for
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  Speaker 3: my bachelor's I thought that I was going to go
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  Speaker 3: into economics, because in Pakistan the two tracks were like
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  Speaker 3: you're going to go into science or you're going to
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  Speaker 3: go into like, you know, business or engineering or something
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  Speaker 3: like that.
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  Speaker 4: So I did not know.
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  Speaker 3: I ended up actually doing anthropology and sociology, but I
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  Speaker 3: had not even you know, I had no idea that
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  Speaker 3: those could actually be paths to go on until I
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  Speaker 3: came here and got into college and discovered there's a
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  Speaker 3: lot more available.
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  Speaker 1: Right right, Okay, So I want to dive into what
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  Speaker 1: you're talking about here, which I think is really interesting.
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  Speaker 2: This realization that you came to why you're in therapy.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds like you got a lot out of it,
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  Speaker 2: such that you were able to write a book, but
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  Speaker 2: talk more.
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  Speaker 1: About understanding how you could quote unquote feel better or
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  Speaker 1: kind of remove yourself or work through rather the difficult periods.
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  Speaker 2: What was talking more specifically about that.
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  Speaker 3: That's great, So I'm going to talk about it in
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  Speaker 3: terms of also the crux of the book joyous resilience, right,
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  Speaker 3: because the thing that I wrote about is the thing
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  Speaker 3: that then I lived through back then. So the first
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  Speaker 3: piece of it was discovering this tool that I call
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  Speaker 3: the cycle of suffering. It comes from I'm Stan Karpman,
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  Speaker 3: who created something called the drama triangle, and basically, whether
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  Speaker 3: you call it drama triangle, the cycle of suffering is
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  Speaker 3: these three roles inside of us.
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  Speaker 4: It's the way that we.
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  Speaker 3: Respond to ourselves when we are under any kind of duress.
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  Speaker 3: And the way that we respond to ourselves falls into
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  Speaker 3: these three roles, and the way that we interact in
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  Speaker 3: these three roles ends up depleting us. So to give
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  Speaker 3: an example, if I'm coming in and I'm feeling sad
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  Speaker 3: or frightened because and like I am procrastinating on a project,
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  Speaker 3: I want to write a book, but I'm really scared.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know if I can do it. Over Here
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  Speaker 3: on top in a cycle would be what I would
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  Speaker 3: call the vulnerable selves. So these are all these feelings
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  Speaker 3: I'm having about this new project. Over here would be
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  Speaker 3: the response. And one way that we might have learned
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  Speaker 3: to respond to ourselves there is to actually start to criticize.
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  Speaker 4: So the critic which will go, you know, what do
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  Speaker 4: you think about? Like you don't know enough? What are
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  Speaker 4: people going to say?
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  Speaker 3: You can never do this? Things that then start to
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  Speaker 3: obviously demoralize this part. And we all have this the
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  Speaker 3: journey upon it from our parents or society, or we
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  Speaker 3: think it's how we motivate, but it ends up having
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  Speaker 3: a different effect. So as I say this to myself,
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  Speaker 3: my vulnerable self starts to get more and more vulnerable, Like,
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  Speaker 3: don't I feel even worse about myself now, I'm even
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  Speaker 3: more scared. Now, I'm procrastinating even more, I'm shutting down.
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  Speaker 3: And then often we have another part of us, which
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  Speaker 3: I call the neglector, who then tries to caretake this
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  Speaker 3: by going, you know, either, let's just check out.
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  Speaker 4: Like this is all too much.
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  Speaker 3: I don't want to feel this, so here watch another show,
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  Speaker 3: you know, binge on this food, distract yourself from like
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  Speaker 3: other people, right, like, let's who else needs something? I'm
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  Speaker 3: too busy focusing on cleaning up this and taking care
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  Speaker 3: of that. All of that is again designed to help
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  Speaker 3: distract from this feeling. Once this happens, the vulnerable self
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  Speaker 3: might feel temporarily soothed. I checked out for a while,
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  Speaker 3: you know, all of that. But then eventually I'm faced
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  Speaker 3: again with the next morning, Oh, that book, or I
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  Speaker 3: see my colleague and they're writing a book, and now
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  Speaker 3: I feel a bit envious and a bit dumb, and
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  Speaker 3: the cycle starts all over again because I still don't
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  Speaker 3: have a way out. So now the critic might go, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: see she's writing.
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  Speaker 4: That book, and what's wrong with you?
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  Speaker 3: And you didn't do it and you'll never do it,
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  Speaker 3: And now I have to have more of the binging
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  Speaker 3: and the addiction and going away, and I'm collapsing further.
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  Speaker 3: So this is a cycle of suffering. And I think
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  Speaker 3: for me to understand that the stress that I was
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  Speaker 3: inside of, whatever it might have been fights with a
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  Speaker 3: partner or you know, feeling downhearted in school or afraid
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  Speaker 3: about my first job after I leave college, it was
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  Speaker 3: neatly falling into the mouths of these three characters, and
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  Speaker 3: I was just so useful.
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  Speaker 4: Guy, because at that moment it became not just me.
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  Speaker 3: I could see it outside of myself and be like, oh,
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  Speaker 3: I'm feeling this way, but the reason why it's getting
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  Speaker 3: worse is because I'm responding in these ways. And if
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  Speaker 3: I could interrupt that at any point something might change.
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  Speaker 3: And so when I turn over here for a minute,
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  Speaker 3: here's what I call the circle of resilience.
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  Speaker 4: And this no one necessarily taught me.
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  Speaker 3: I think it's like looking back at the therapy and
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  Speaker 3: then over the fifteen years of clinical work realizing like,
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  Speaker 3: oh the way out, and honestly, for me, probably like
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  Speaker 3: the foundation of all good therapy is building the counter
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  Speaker 3: rules to these guys. So if I'm feeling vulnerable, as
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  Speaker 3: opposed to responding with a critic, over here would be
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  Speaker 3: the protector, and instead of the neglector over here would
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  Speaker 3: be the nurture. And so the nurture when I'm feeling afraid,
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  Speaker 3: right is the emotional regulator. The nurturer goes, I get
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  Speaker 3: that you're feeling really scared, and it makes so much sense,
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  Speaker 3: and I'm here for you, and I want to be
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  Speaker 3: with you, and I can attune to you. And I mean,
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  Speaker 3: even just saying that right now, my body physically starts
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  Speaker 3: stuff and I see the smile on your face. It's
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  Speaker 3: like it's universal, right, Like it's the energy of love
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  Speaker 3: and compassion and most often with people that not have
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  Speaker 3: access to and most often why we're coming to therapies,
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  Speaker 3: like because we want to learn that, whether we know
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  Speaker 3: it or not, we're craving that, our psyches are craving that,
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  Speaker 3: And a lot of being a therapist, I think is
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  Speaker 3: helping to build back inside of someone that compassionate, nurturing
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  Speaker 3: self so that they can regulate themselves.
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  Speaker 2: That's what Just briefly, and forgive me for interrupting, but
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  Speaker 2: that circle of resilience. Is it that generally, and.
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  Speaker 1: You can even speak from your own experience, is it
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  Speaker 1: that we don't recognize that we don't believe we have that?
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  Speaker 3: That's a great question. I mean, of course, people are
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  Speaker 3: on a spectrum, different people, different stories. I will say
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  Speaker 3: for myself and also generally, what I see, especially for
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  Speaker 3: people who are coming in the strong inner critic, people
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  Speaker 3: definitely hands on are often kinder to others in the
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  Speaker 3: art to themselves. People hands down don't usually recognize that
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  Speaker 3: the self talk that they're doing is actually critical or
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  Speaker 3: even abusive.
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  Speaker 4: So, you know, I think the we have it in us.
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  Speaker 4: I think we have inside of us that compassion of
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  Speaker 4: the thing.
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  Speaker 3: We're born with it generally as human beings, but reaccessing
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  Speaker 3: it and turning it towards ourselves that does seem to
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  Speaker 3: be something that like it is in there but needs
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  Speaker 3: that coaching and nurturing and of course ideally able to
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  Speaker 3: receive that as children from our parents right like where
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  Speaker 3: they're coming in with that, and so it's bringing out
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  Speaker 3: that in us. But in therapy, I think it's a
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  Speaker 3: reconnection to that, both from the presence of the therapist
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  Speaker 3: and the tumor the therapist brings. That's the healing relationship,
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  Speaker 3: the corrective relationship, but then also a real building back
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  Speaker 3: of that voice inside and teaching how the moment you
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  Speaker 3: respond this way to the vulnerable self, it starts to
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  Speaker 3: perk up. People start to feel a bit better. It's like, okay,
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  Speaker 3: it's okay that I feel scared. Start to pick up
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  Speaker 3: a bit, which is the beginning of turning the vulnerable
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  Speaker 3: self into the resus theself, because why is a child resilient?
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  Speaker 3: Because if I fall down and no one's shaming me,
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  Speaker 3: and no one's blaming me, and they're actually lifting me up,
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  Speaker 3: I can get back up. So the neglector begins to
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  Speaker 3: turn into the nurture in many different ways, compassion, attunement,
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  Speaker 3: self care instead of self neglect, not just caretaking other people,
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  Speaker 3: but actually realizing we're responsible for ourselves. So tuning back
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  Speaker 3: all of this builds back one strand of resilience the
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  Speaker 3: other very important pieces, turning the critic into a protector.
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  Speaker 3: And this is the part of ourselves that holds boundaries
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  Speaker 3: with ourselves with others and goes there's a line. You
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  Speaker 3: don't get to talk to me this way. Even internally.
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  Speaker 3: I get to have limits. I get to say yes
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  Speaker 3: if I mean yes, and no if I mean no,
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  Speaker 3: and pause if I mean pause. I get to make
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  Speaker 3: clear requests. These things seem very simple, but honestly, like
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  Speaker 3: I didn't have them at age twenty one twenty two.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's still continuously learning them. But
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  Speaker 3: without them, it doesn't matter matter how much I might
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  Speaker 3: meditate and calm myself. Honestly, and it doesn't matter how
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  Speaker 3: much exercise I do, or how much indoorphinse I release
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  Speaker 3: its inside. I know the next time my coworker asked me,
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  Speaker 3: or my boss asked me to do something beyond what
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  Speaker 3: I can do, or my parent and I'm not allowed
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  Speaker 3: to say no. The anxiety that comes from you know, like,
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  Speaker 3: you can't meditate that away. You have to learn the
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  Speaker 3: skills to be able to respond to that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I really, I really like this.
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  Speaker 1: I mean it's bringing up a lot of thoughts for
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  Speaker 1: me in terms of, you know, when you're talking about
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  Speaker 1: that cycle of what did you call it, the cycle
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  Speaker 1: of resilience in the cycle.
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  Speaker 4: Of cycle of suffering and cycle of suffering.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that to me.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the question comes up, what are potentially we
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  Speaker 1: gaining from maintaining ourselves in that cycle of suffering? What
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  Speaker 1: are the elements that we're doing to think we're you know,
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  Speaker 1: ation comes up? Right, how we kind of kind of
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  Speaker 1: combating that or trying to deal with that. All these
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  Speaker 1: things are coming up, and yeah, you're right, it is.
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  Speaker 1: It is seemingly simple, but that, of course, as always,
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  Speaker 1: doesn't make it necessarily easy.
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  Speaker 2: So let me ask you this, angelie, when did.
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  Speaker 1: You really you know, you came here, you started, uh,
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  Speaker 1: moving towards economics and so forth. But when did you
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: start to shift and say I want to start getting
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: into psychology or become a therapist. When did that happen
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: within terms relate relative to when you were in the
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: therapy and so forth.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: Let me see.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: So so you know, like like twenty two, like I said,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: I got very lucky to get into the world of therapy.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: I was also already working as a case manager with
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Team Moms in San Francis, So I was already in
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: the kind of counseling domain, but not necessarily realizing that
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: I myself needed that right And again also the uncultural component.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: I didn't grow up in a culture where, like therapy,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: was it all accessible or named, you know, like in
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: Pakistani culture. And I think even now, I mean, it's
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: getting more available in common, but it certainly was a
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: taboo thing if I'd all spoken about. So it was
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: all kind of outside of my realm. However, now I'm
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: in the counseling world and I'm working with teenage moms
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: and INCUAD, I'm realizing I'm having a hard time relationship.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Something is happening, and thankfully I'm also in the San
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Francisco area, which is a highly therapized place, even back
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: at that time. And so my colleague turns to me
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: and normalizes, going, have you considered quinto therapy? And so
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: that kind of opened it. And I would say within
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: just the first few years of getting these tools and
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: so I to learn how to emotionally regulate. And also
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: I will say I'm an individual therapist, but I'm also
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: a group therapist. And a lot of that is because
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: a lot of the work that I did was actually
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: in group therapy myself back then, and it was in
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: group therapy that I learned how to begin to speak
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: my needs to somebody else and clean up if I
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: had some kind of altercation with them, and also to
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: receive the care of the group and affirmation or the
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: things I'm ashamed about. You can't heal shame alone. And
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: I would say, even with shame, not always just one
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: on one in therapy. We need to see other human
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: beings beyond the therapists in a way hold our story
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: and realize like there's compassion there and like you know,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: normal normalizing. So within those first few years of getting
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: the healing in the group and an individual. Like for me,
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: I realized, like I saw people go from so much
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: pain and so much suffering and so much hardship and
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: like be blown open withe the therapy work.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: And then to really see I have to say, I
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: think it's the biggest.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: Grace of being a therapist or being in healing circles
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: is you get to hear people's stories and you get
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: to see people's rawness and the beauty of them. I
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: think people often think like beauty is like when we're
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: confident in all of that, which can be true. But
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I think people's vulnerability and telling the truth and their
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: tears and their grieving and their anger discharge as a
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: way to love again is probably one of the most
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: beautiful things we get to witness. And once I saw that,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: once I saw that happen, there was no turning back.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Like I said, for me, it felt like, oh, I
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: want to be a part of this.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I love that, man.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: I love groups and experiences I've had in groups, whether
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: as a member or facilitating, And what you're talking about, really.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: I think rings true for me too.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And what's coming out for me is you know, you're
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: talking about this rawness and there's something that just speaks
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: of authenticity, right, It's like we're just letting the crap
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: fall away and here we are and it's so profound.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: And for myself too, that was one of the things,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: if not the thing that made me feel like this
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: is the right place for me. Was it challenging for you, Angelie,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to you know, being from the background that you come from.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Was it challenging for you to put the spotlight on
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: yourself in a sense and quote unquote work on yourself.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: I see you mean, like even taking the time to
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: focus in on the therapy, and like, yeah, it's interesting
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: to you asked that. I will say, for sure, I've
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: seen that I have a lot of South Asian clients,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: a lot of clients of color, clients from marginalized groups.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: It's interesting to me how generally clients from marginalized groups
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: often have that coming lack of deserving and often because
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: the communities that they're coming from do not have access.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: They're very family members won't have access, and then it
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: becomes that guilt of like then how can I And
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: then I'll say, I don't know why. But luckily that
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: actually did not come up for me. I think what
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I already felt was a huge responsibility because I was
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: acting out at the time when I first came in there,
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: but was acting out in the relationship, acting out in anger,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: acting out in fear, and so I felt like I
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: was causing harm. So I don't know if that kind
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: of helped me. Would it be like deserve or not deserve.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I have to clean this up because the people in
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: my life don't deserve acting in this way, So that
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: might have corrected it or for some reason, thankfully I
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: escape that. But I have a lot of compassion and
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: yet understanding empathy for the fact that so many clients
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: do come in with that, and I think it's it's
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: a tragic thing that we're taught that to be ashamed
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: instead of really I think in this country and all over,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: it needs to be a fundamental right, especially for marginalized groups,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: because it should be a reparation. The amount of trauma
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: that has happened is sort of a trauma. The very
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: least bit of drop in the bucket would be access
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: to mental health and therapy to recover from that historical trauma.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: In the time you know that we're living now with
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: COVID and so forth, in the pandemic, what are you
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: seeing in general in terms of working with the groups
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: you work with, the marginalized population as you as you
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: called it Asian, Middle Eastern LBGTQ and I and so forth.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Can you speak and I know it's everyone has their
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: own story, of course, but can you speak to what
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: you're seeing in terms of these populations?
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, And I mean I will add one thing, right,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: Like the person who's coming to see me, because I'm
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: not working at a community agency per se, So that
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: person would assume at that point already has some points
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: of privilege that might shift how they're experiencing the pandemic.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: As in we would assume that they would have either insurance.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Or ability to pay for therapy, which means it possibly
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: not unemployed or at least have funding. That makes a
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: huge difference in terms of just kind of the like.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: Stet point or where they're coming in. So I think
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: that question could be.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: Different, right, depending on if we were talking about the
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: person working at the grocery store, you know, who's assaulted
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: by the pandemic in a different way and also probably
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: cannot afford the care. In terms of clientele that I
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: am seeing, here's some things that I think are kind
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: of universal, right, like one is just the fear. I
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: mean also at this point we're eleven months in in
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: the bay, so what I'm calling the midwinter of COVID,
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Like it's the like you're tired of being tired and
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: you can't quite believe this thing is going to be over,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: and you're hitting that like second wave of I think
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: depression and malaise and that fear of like we right
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: towards the end, but what's going to happen? Profound fatigue,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: you know, from not being able to see loved ones,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: starting to be some envy or jealousy, or difficulty around
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: like the vaccine and who gets access and why and
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: how and how it's going to roll out. If you're single,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: then you've had a long road and you're living alone
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: and you know, depending on your spectrum around risk, maybe
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: you've gone and done some dating and then there's all
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: of that kind of fear and how hard it is
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: to day during this time. I think for a lot
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: of people it's been the putting off of the dream
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: deferred and not really knowing when there will be the
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: chance to have that. On the opposite side, I would
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: say some of the hardest hit are the working parents,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: with multiple children at home, and you know now they
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: have been continuously doing the teaching and the childcare and
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: the full time work, and yes, I feel for you.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know, it's it's mind boggling. And then of
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: course the ones who've lost, who lost loved ones, you know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: and again there again the intersectionality really counts because generally
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: it's like it you depend upon race and class, and
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: you know, at those intersections.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: If you if you're part of those communities.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Like if you're black, you're a Native American, and coming
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: from backgrounds that are lower income, most likely you have
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: majority of numbers that you know who why their past
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: away have will have been impacted. And so the grief
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: of that, the grief of not having been able to
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: be with people when they passed away, the fear around that.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: And I think also like political stress and anguish, especially
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: living here, and like watching the amount of time that's
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: gone on, like before unemployment, benefits have even gotten extended, steaming,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: this checks not coming in, you know, healthcare being precarious,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: all of that again compounded by race again and class.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: So I think it's a lot of like despair, I
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: would say, in a nutshell despair tea and all. Like
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: I said, depends upon how many different factors are affecting
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: your experience the pandemic, and the more you raise those factors,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the higher that fatigue and cost.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I'm just reminded of one that I'm speaking with Angeliue Sharen.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: The book is Joyous Resilience. What's the best way for
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: people to get in contact with you, Angelie?
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: Yes, so my website www dot Angeli sharenemft dot com.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: I will say that.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Everything we talked about today, there's nine free guided meditations
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: to build these inner circle consilience inside of you on there,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: and if you go to my website you can get
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: access to that. How do you recommend that? And then
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: the book Resilience?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'll have.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Both of those linked up at the show notes here
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: as well at the Trauma Tapis podcast dot com. So
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: let me ask you something. You've been doing this for
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: some time. I mean I admire you coming over here
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: by yourself. That in and of itself is courageous. I mean,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: there's no way to look at it. But what.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Keeps you going in this field and working with the
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: population that you do.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: I love that first things that come are love and joy,
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: so one is just love, which I think is a
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: profound source of joy. I love what I do, I
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: love my clients. It is life affirming work. Like I
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: said that very reason I discovered twenty two twenty three.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: When people come out with their authenticity and they work
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: towards reclaiming their liveness, I mean, it's like it's hard
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: to turn your attention away anywhere else because that is
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: so compelling. So I love that, and then I think joy.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: I think focusing on joy particularly that kind of happened
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: a little bit later in my therapeutic journey. But realizing
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: no one ever talked to me about like what brings
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: you joy and will like actually work from joy or
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: how would you express your joy as a person as
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: a part of the healing journey, it kind of felt like,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: if you're not anxious anymore, you're not depressed anymore, you
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: doing well, You're.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: Good to go. But it's a whole other spectrum to go.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: What does it mean to be alive?
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: And so that I ask myself that almost every day,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: and I look for that in my life outside of
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: my working life as well as within, and that keeps
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: it just alive, that keeps it joyous. Keeps me going,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: keeps me resilient.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well I love that. What doesn't mean to be alive?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: All Right, let's kind of wind down here with any
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: go to book recommendations. Obviously we'll have your book up, but.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: What would you like to share with us, whether it's
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: trauma relater or not, or you know, resilience building later
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: or not. What would you offer?
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, given our times, probably the
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: most important book that I read and I use a
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: lot in my own as research, was Reshma Menicam's My
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Grandmother's Hands, And that is an amazing book, especially I
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: think in this country right for like white bodies, for
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: black bodies, like for people wanting to do the work
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: of clearing up racial trauma, and really like I think
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: also as a mind blowing historical narrative of like how
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: did we get here? And how is it that you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: systemic racism kind of infiltrated the US, and like what
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: is the trauma that even allowed human beings to enslave
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: other human beings? And what is the trauma and then
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: kept on perpetuating that? So I love his book and
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: it's a somatic book, It's a body centered book around healing.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: It's very practical, it's very loving, and I think it's
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: a great guy for our time. So that's the one
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: i'd recommend.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Awesome, my Grandmother's Hands again, we'll have that linked up here,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: right ANGELI. Awesome, it's been a delight speaking with you.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I just loved, loved the focus on
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: joy and thanks. Uh yeah, it's god. It brought a
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: smile to my face. So it's been a pleasure. Thank
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: you so much for joining me today.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: Such a pleasure, guy, Thank you so much.